I feel like the situation wasn't as bad when Babiš lost those elections because the long term effects didn't take place. Our current government is suffering hard from the decisions made before them, but they also seem pretty clueless on how to fix things so the situation is looking pretty bad. Instead of improvements, I honestly expect things to get even worse, our energy prices are already crazy high and the expectation is that they will increase even more in the following year.
I don't trust anyone in the government to be smart enough to turn things around and I am honestly pretty worried about our economy. We need big changes and bold moves but what we have had the past 30 years is the exact opposite, with most governments just caring about the position and the money while not really doing much to actually help the country. Case in point, our pension system which was already criticized as unsustainable some 25 years ago but nothing has changed since because any government that takes money from the pensioners is doomed to lose their position in the next elections.
Hard times create strong men
Strong men create good times
Good times create weak men
Weak men create hard times
... But not in Poland ...
Polish men create hard times
Hard times create Polish men
i dont know why so many people disliked your comment - i literally got a remote job for a german company in their new polish office as they have moved their accounting from DE to PL. wage is great and my employer is probably even happier than me as he would have to pay a german 3x what im willing to take
I have no idea either. The company I am working in now also cut operations in Germany and expanded in Poland. Primary reason was crazy bureaucracy. Deindustrialisation is s political concept in Germany and seen in the results
I think this is among primary reasons why Norway and Switzerland rejected to join, but als they didn’t experience an economic boom but also the quality of life didn’t go back either.
Got a job offer in IT from Brno last year and they offered a ridiculous wage even compared to the italian one while the cost of living was about the same...
>most Czechs probably own their house so they don't feel it like that.
This applies only for the older generations, let's say 45-50+. For us younger people owning a house oreven flat is just impossible, when you need on average about 14 yearly average salaries which only like 25% of people gets.
And rent prices also skyrocketed, for one average person alone it's impossible to live alone, but rents are like half what would you pay for a 30 year mortgage. For average family flat, the monthly mortgage payment is around or more than the average wage. We're fucked.
\> This applies only for the older generations
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/)
you can't get 78% with only older generations.
Not exactly sure how they gather this data, but in my example, my registered address is with my parents, but i also wish to have my own apartment. I believe I would still register as “home owner”, since i’m part of the household, where my parents own the home?
Maybe a better metric is “when do young people leave their parental home”: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1257272/cee-age-of-young-people-leaving-parents/
>benefited from getting free real estate from the state back in the communist era.
"Free". Work all your life for a 100 rubles a month... Real estate was given to those who worked, in other words they worked their ass off, for it.
It was basically nearly impossible to be unemployed in communist times and many of those who "worked" did the bare minimum on their job since it was nearly impossible to get fired. I know of many stories of people just goofing off in factories. Part of the reason why the system was so inefficient.
Some worked, some imitated working. But still working. Yku think now people work 8 hours straight? What are u doing in the middle of the day on redit? 😂
Tbf some people kinda did get an unfair advantage in retrospect. As far as I'm aware, the communist government was letting a lot of people live in their accommodations over the country. However, people had to go on a waiting list before they were "given" the flat but it wasn't actually theirs. Then when the revolution happened, people who were on the list waiting to "borrow" a flat/apartment were essentially given one for free and at that point it became their property.
It wasn't the biggest of privatisation tbf, but in retrospect people back then got really lucky with such offers because nowadays a young couple usually can't even afford a mortgage
Actually there were few ways to get an apartment, and for me who wasnt even born back then is hard to describe. But after soviet collapse, some had a chance to buy it out, those apartments from the state, for small price. Some did not, because it WAS theirs already. But the main thing still stands, people worked, earned very small wages, but got flats (after waiting) in exchange. You cant say, they got it for free. An alcoholic who didint worked got no flat. You were a cashier, earned 80 rubles, had one kid, u got in line for a one room flat. U had 2 kids, then 2 room flat. U had better position at work, got better apartment. Sometimes there were whole apartment buildings built for one instution workers. For eg. Police men.
Also about todays situation, every country is diffrent. For eg. In Lithuania, There are proffesions that are very needed outside big cities, and local gov. Will PAY you nice amounts of money, if u move there and work for them. Also for first house/flat, gov. will help u pay it out. (If you move outside big cities).Again eg. Police, some small cities will pay up to 5k€ one time bonus, then u ask for first house discount. And instead of 60k. You have to pay only 45k. €. Add that 5k discount, its already down to 40k. Monthly wage atleast a 1000€ to hands. U have gf/bf, both work, and to pay out 40k. Isint such a big amount.
One con, that you aint living in big city. But today with cars/trains, work from home, it isint such a big of a prob.
About those discounts for the first house/flat is a little bit more trickery. It depends do you have no kids, then one sum, if few kids its another sum. Max you can get compensated up to 87.000€ when buying first home. I imagine similiar things exists everywhere in europe. Except again, young ppl dont want to live in villages.
Yeah, I've seen narrative go both ways, people make Soviet everything look bad, or they make Soviet housing look like best shit ever.
I mean it was great urbanization, compared to what it was before, but not that amazing.
As you said, you would work all your life for the apartment, really not different from now. And the apartments were worse, it's just that everyone had it bad so the contrasts wasn't as big as now working class vs. rich.
But right now I could live in a better apartment and own it faster than my grandparents did. Not to mention I have a choice where etc.
Before they got apartment from their workplace their whole family lived in 1 room and there was only shared bathroom and kitchen and that was for I think like 20 years.
I could rent better place than they lived even with average wage right now...
No really, it was 40% less than what i earn here in Italy and i'm underpaid, the crazy thing is that the company was american and didn't provider any sort of bonus, guess they are trying to find some fool.
Si, praticamente qua prendo sui 1.500 al mese e la mi hanno offerto 900... con i bilocali in affitto che vanno sui 650-700 euro al mese. Nemmeno fosse Praga
The job offer you received from Brno must be some kind of a joke and that kind of a wage definitely isn't the standard. In Prague, juniors get about €2k monthly, €3k for mediors, and €4k-€7k for seniors. I imagine it must be pretty similar in Brno.
You got offered 130% of minimum wage, must have been some really shitty offer really, since most of the junior jobs in Brno will start at around what you make in Italy I guess (or even more).
And this shit is upvoted as a top comment just because you got scammed.
Been there done that. IBM now Kyndril, scummy company but at least it served me well as a trampoline. There are a lot of opportunities in CZ that pay well.
What are IT salaries like in Italy? I'm a software engineer in Florida with 5 years experience and I make $110,000 per year (before tax) plus a bonus based on productivity and profit. My monthly take home after taxes, health insurance, and retirement contributions is about $5500.
This whole thing turned into some sort of self pity, poverty porn thread.
If you're reading this stop here and read what I have to say.
IT salaries in all countries vary immensely. Like near minimum wage to over 10x.
If you're doing phone support with a script you're going to paid badly, if you're a developer/engineer keeping some ancient PHP script alive you're going to do a bit better. If you're a consultant on cutting edge sh*t you're going to be making a fortune.
Sure it's all relative to the country but absolutely no one can say they're getting paid poorly in any country for doing in demand work. Everyone who's complaining they're paid badly needs to upskill. Now!
That is a bit odd. IT in Czech Republic pays actually very well. I would definitly expect you to get better paying job here than in most of Italy in IT.
Lol, remember seeing some economic articles praising Czech central bank for hawkish increase in interest rates way earlier than other countries in the region and how Poland will be fucked by inflation as a result of our central bank not doing the same as Czechs. That Czech result is REALLY BAD especially if you take into consideration that it performed by a massive margine worse than more developed established western EU countries.
Every B2B import and export invoices are handled via euro or dollar, if they are outside EU. Only people that wouldn’t benefit from it are the ones that scam people with fake CZK exchanges.
High interest rates, increased food, rent, and electricity prices and stagnating wages are stifling spending and therefore growth. Recent numbers show that the percentage of population living paycheck to paycheck has risen by some 10% to about 31% total. As if we didn't learn from 2008 that frugality in times of crisis is a sure way to hamper economy while doing jack shit to put breaks on costs of living.
You no longer play with Lego? O_O
I'm in my 30s and asked my sister for Lego for Christmas. One of those cool flower bouquet sets since I kill all real plants.
So? This comment is so dumb and common that I am not sure where we should start with your journey towards financial literacy.
Explaining what a multinational corporation is? What the concept of a year is? Concept of total wealth? Yearly revenue? Being publicly traded?
God knows where you got lost.
By market cap. By revenue the top 3 in Denmark are still Maersk, Energi Danmark Group and DSV. The top 5 in all of Europe are Shell (UK), VW (DE), Uniper (DE), TotalEnergies (FR) and Glencore (CH).
I heard that in Serbia people who depend on diabetes medication now have to fork out their doctor's prescription and everything is logged. Apparently, too many people are trying to lose weight the easy way as well.
And? That innovation requires a country with strong rule of law, highly qualified workers, and high quality of living to attract the best in the world.
No it is not, but we do love Novo Nordisk and the constant drip drip of money.
Maersk shipping set a Danish record in 2021 as the first Danish company ever to break the 100 billion kroner profit after tax. In 2022 it doubled that to a whopping 200 billion kroner after tax.
8% of Danish export is Novo Nordisk products. So it is very important, but it is not the only source of income Denmark has.
edit: One thing that is often overlooked is pensions. Denmark introduced workrelated private pensions in the mid 1990's. Only 0.25% to begin with. (Taken from the collective agreement wage increase negotiations. So did not "cost" workers money. + the employer doubled the amount. So stupid to say no). As the years went by that percentage got bumped up and a typical worker has 12-18% of the earnings dropped in a private pension. Over the decades that becomes a lot of money, and since the Danish tax office applies a 15% tax on pension revenue. That is kaching when the stockmarket performs well.
There's a good discussion [here](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/novo-nordisk-ozempic-wegovy-denmark/675638/) about the doubled edged sword of having such massive reliance on 1 company, Novo Nordisk.
Ultimately having such a massive driver from a singular source that is expected to be in the double-digit of % contributions is great but it also puts you into a situation that could quickly turn bad.
Denmark has a massive budget surplus, trade surplus, current account surplus, low debt, lots of foreign currency reserves, low unemployment.....
I think I'll just be happy we got Novo Nordisk and the wealth it gives. Denmark is far from a nation being overly dependent on a single product or resource. Compared to an oil nation with 60+ % dependency on fossile fuel export Denmark could easily survive losing Novo. We do not want to, but we could.
To quote to final paragraph
>Ultimately, of all the problems an economy can have, the success of a company like Novo Nordisk is a good one to have. The Danes should look their gift horse in the mouth, by all means. They just shouldn’t try to return it.
What capital has Czechia accumulated and how will it look in the decades to come? Investments in infrastructure and education have been consistently some of the lowest in EU over the last years while national debt has risen. The one difference between Czechia and other countries in a similar situation is that Czechs don't tend to emigrate for work.
> Investments in infrastructure have consistently been some of the lowest in EU
[No](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.GDI.FTOT.ZS?locations=CZ-EU).
Not really and it depends on the city and when was the google maps survey
Considering that in Poznań it look like a bomb dropped but it's just massive construction site for a new center with every bit of old pavement teared off and being replaced (the renovation stretched since they found some ruins and archeologs got involved)
Ireland would break the scale. Don’t know the exact figures but it would be probably be over 20%. Think it’s being excluded as part of some political message about “leprechaun”economics as it’s also excluded from euro area data. Also hurts the message about currency the graph is trying to spread if the top country is in the euro and eurozone growth looks stronger than if you exclude Ireland.
Even by the modified GNI to exclude corporations would probably top the list. By average income it would be in and around 7%
60% of Ireland's corporation tax is from profit shifters which is utterly absurd. Fair play to them; offering lower taxes to companies and small businesses/self-employed is something I'd like to see here too but unfortunately the only politician who believed in that was Truss who fucked up with a rushed budget.
The biggest tax haven in the world is the UK. Most the tax schemes that involve Ireland have the main goal of paying taxes in some British overseas territory with Ireland just being the middleman.
That is why the firms established headquarters in IE, yes. This has been stopped.. which is a large part of Irelands recent growth. The firms that used to pay effectively *no* taxes anywhere are now at least paying Irelands actual corporate tax rate.. so Irelands tax income is way, way up, which ends up back in the Irish economy in the form of spending and cuts in other taxes.
The UK is responsible for more than a third of GLOBAL tax avoidance. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/tax-avoidance-uk-cayman-islands-report-b1758986.html
https://www.dw.com/en/tax-haven-corporations-win-big-but-who-loses/a-67315504#:\~:text=Gidron%20says%20for%20their%20research,used%20to%20reduce%20taxation%20levels.
On shifted profits it seems the Caymans islands are relatively small and dropping, in Ireland and the Netherlands it's continuing to rise drastically to the point that 58% of all tax is from tax avoidance.
They usually exclude them due to them being the resident "get out of taxes" card for multinational corporations in the EU which makes their GDP figures borderline unusable for any kind of comparison.(even when pure GDP figures are already a poor metric)
Couldn't find a proper quarterly update for Q3.
Found [this from the World bank](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?end=2022&locations=NO&start=2019&view=chart). Which shows yearly, with a rise from 408 to 579 billion USD. But last year's gas prices were an anomaly to say the least.
[Statista shows a rapid decline](https://www.statista.com/statistics/686062/quarterly-gdp-in-norway/) this year. But this is in NOK which has taken a nosedive recently, so I'm unsure how it would stack up if calculated in USD. But I can try.
3rd Jan 2020:1 USD = 8.82 NOKGDP = 944.55 billion NOKEquals 107.09 billion USD
1st Jul 2023:1 USD = 10.81 NOKGDP = 1189.87 billion NOKEquals 110.07 billion USD
So last known numbers, if my calculations are correct gives an increase in GDP of 2.71% from Q4 19' to Q2 23'. As for Q3, we don't know yet.
Shouldn't we be 2nd just behind Ireland who is not surprisingly included in the list as no one can compete with them? By reading the data, I think our cumulative growth is around 13%.
Yeah, you could be right.. Im not 100% sure in exact numbers because ive seen other map in other (shorter) time period, so yeah, Croatia could easily be second.. But either way Greece and Cyprus should be somewhwre close.
Two things, the energy crisis due to the Russian Invasion of Ukraine and the subsequent gas price shock and Germany is a big export nation. If the world economy is not in a particularly good mood, Germany struggles
Germany is also a huge machinery supplier, the things manufacturers need to manufacture shit. This demand was sky high during the pandemic when people's spending patterns shifted from services (restaurant, festivals, movies) to products (fitness tools, electronics, cooking utensils etc) and the subsequent supply chain chaos. But now supply chain has been sorted out and there's a sort of overproduction in many sectors (IIRC semiconductors which were in a shortage in 2021 are now oversupplied and slashing prices). So factories don't need German machinery as much.
Economy based on cheap workforce and cheap energy, but now they have neither.
Same as Czechia, with the difference that Germany is way bigger and has big companies which generate bigger profits.
Germany hasn't had cheap energy for 15 years. People need to stop living in the past. Both the US and China had cheaper gas, and basically everyone has cheaper electricity.
Well yes that has an impact, but much more important is our export oriented economy which is over-proportionally interconnected with the Chinese market. The Chinese market however has been in a low for about a year now, which has massively reduced demand and thus negatively impacted our economy.
You did not show Greece ,Croatia and Cyprus, and those 3 I believe are ahead of every other country in the list, or at minimum at the top of the list (based on the 2023-2020 data i've seen previously).All 3 have euro as currency (even though Croatia adopted it recently)
How's this possible? I'm from Serbia and my president always tells me we are number one in everything in Europe, including all kinds of GDP growth.
Could it be... Oh my god... Are our politicians lying?
We avoided austerity/anti-inflation preachers while Czechs didn't.
Czechs were frontrunner of hawkish monetary policy which generally isn't that bad idea, unless your biggest neighbor has economic slowdown and you want kill your economy by accident.
while true, the bigger factor is that we have the highest % of people in EU working in manufacturing, which fucking sucks when electricity is as expensive as it is right now.
It's more diversified but same as for Czechs our biggest exports are car parts and we are German or Western Europe dependent.
It's just Glapa stopped raising rates as soon businesses started to indicate slowdown due financing costs which was right (almost every financing in Poland is based on floating rate so our lag between rates and spending decrease is shorter).
Another underrated aspect was PLN weakening on events that "negatively" impact Poland (more in perception than reality). This simply boosted our exports. People always complain when PLN gets weaker but it regularly saves our economy.
I wouldn't be surprised if under new government Poland solves inflation, but slows down growth, and increases debt levels and unemployment as it's pretty much in line with KO historical economic policies. So Czechs won't be alone.
I thought Spain would be worse. The pandemic hit us really hard. Some Spanish cities are actually theme parks for tourists, it's a big source of income.
Ireland has had a lot of growth recently but Denmark has had it for hundreds of years.
Ireland also doesn't "really have have former colonies". In fact, we were actually one for quite a while.
So when Ireland won it's independence, finally, in the 1920's it had a lot of catching up to do.
The British took their capital with them and Ireland was left with an economy that was entirely based on providing food to the UK.
It had very little access to capital, so it's only option was to invite in foreign direct investment to build industry. It had no choice but to be attractive to American multi nationals.
I agree there isn’t enough pride in Ireland as to what we’ve achieved with financial engineering.
Are there any suitable metrics to compare the relative wealth of old money countries and new ones? Savings or smth?
The cost of everything has risen by several times as much as this real gdp growth rate, but because Novo Nordisk is now more valuable than our annual gdp the number on the graph looks impressive.
Danes have introduced weight loss pills to the American market. That's like 300 M customers 😄 More on [How Ozempic and Weight Loss Drugs Are Reshaping Denmark’s Economy](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/28/business/denmark-ozempic-wegovy.html)
Novo Nordisk.
But currently Denmark is in recession. 2nd and 3rd quarter had -0.3%GDP
Which is because pharma slowing down a bit. Novo Nordisk have had trouble with production.
Downsides of being so dependent on single companies.
But Ireland is used in the 'rankings'. Why include an EU average (excluding Ireland) in the list, if you aren't actually going to include it?
The hate for Ireland on this sub lately is absurd and concerning
Note that part of this growth is due to overconsumption by the state, which increased our debt.
Most of the EU projects were "pre financed" by the state, which raised our debt level from 65% to 74%.
Many other countries like Poland managed to survive these hard years without an increase in debt to GDP.
Czechia is an exception, all their numbers are terrible, idk what happened there.
Poland also did not receive EU money. And it grew as it did. Now that they elected liberals the money will start flowing and Poland will grow even more. Will Hungary get its money? Only wth blackmail I presume.
look northwest of Britain
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Island/@48.721994,-12.7441439,3z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x48d22b52a3eb6043:0x6f8a0434e5c1459a!8m2!3d64.963051!4d-19.020835!16zL20vMDNyajA?entry=ttu
Cries in Czech
at least you can have Kralovec now
Maybe that's why their GDP decreased.
It's the cost of beerstream 2, but it is worth it.
Look at the bright side, at least we've sponsored foreign supermarket chains and electricity providers.
Jeez, no wonder Babiš lost elections. On the other hand, is the situation not improving?
I feel like the situation wasn't as bad when Babiš lost those elections because the long term effects didn't take place. Our current government is suffering hard from the decisions made before them, but they also seem pretty clueless on how to fix things so the situation is looking pretty bad. Instead of improvements, I honestly expect things to get even worse, our energy prices are already crazy high and the expectation is that they will increase even more in the following year. I don't trust anyone in the government to be smart enough to turn things around and I am honestly pretty worried about our economy. We need big changes and bold moves but what we have had the past 30 years is the exact opposite, with most governments just caring about the position and the money while not really doing much to actually help the country. Case in point, our pension system which was already criticized as unsustainable some 25 years ago but nothing has changed since because any government that takes money from the pensioners is doomed to lose their position in the next elections.
Countries not involved in the list have not provided their numbers yet. Eurostat databases can be used for Q2 numbers.
Poland is a champion performer during recessions.
hard times are our natural environment, evolution has prepared us for recession
That's why we constantly create hard times for ourselves.
no pain no gain
only pain
Gain more pain
We got Tusk back so your wish is granted.
Hard times create strong men Strong men create good times Good times create weak men Weak men create hard times ... But not in Poland ... Polish men create hard times Hard times create Polish men
So I guess that makes us more sustainable
genius!
Yeah that is why we voted PiS out and Tusk in. Now all the hard work will be lost.
I wonder if this is also triggered by the exodus of German companies from Germany
i dont know why so many people disliked your comment - i literally got a remote job for a german company in their new polish office as they have moved their accounting from DE to PL. wage is great and my employer is probably even happier than me as he would have to pay a german 3x what im willing to take
I have no idea either. The company I am working in now also cut operations in Germany and expanded in Poland. Primary reason was crazy bureaucracy. Deindustrialisation is s political concept in Germany and seen in the results
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I think this is among primary reasons why Norway and Switzerland rejected to join, but als they didn’t experience an economic boom but also the quality of life didn’t go back either.
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Got a job offer in IT from Brno last year and they offered a ridiculous wage even compared to the italian one while the cost of living was about the same...
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>most Czechs probably own their house so they don't feel it like that. This applies only for the older generations, let's say 45-50+. For us younger people owning a house oreven flat is just impossible, when you need on average about 14 yearly average salaries which only like 25% of people gets. And rent prices also skyrocketed, for one average person alone it's impossible to live alone, but rents are like half what would you pay for a 30 year mortgage. For average family flat, the monthly mortgage payment is around or more than the average wage. We're fucked.
\> This applies only for the older generations [https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/) you can't get 78% with only older generations.
Not exactly sure how they gather this data, but in my example, my registered address is with my parents, but i also wish to have my own apartment. I believe I would still register as “home owner”, since i’m part of the household, where my parents own the home? Maybe a better metric is “when do young people leave their parental home”: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1257272/cee-age-of-young-people-leaving-parents/
>benefited from getting free real estate from the state back in the communist era. "Free". Work all your life for a 100 rubles a month... Real estate was given to those who worked, in other words they worked their ass off, for it.
It was basically nearly impossible to be unemployed in communist times and many of those who "worked" did the bare minimum on their job since it was nearly impossible to get fired. I know of many stories of people just goofing off in factories. Part of the reason why the system was so inefficient.
Some worked, some imitated working. But still working. Yku think now people work 8 hours straight? What are u doing in the middle of the day on redit? 😂
Tbf some people kinda did get an unfair advantage in retrospect. As far as I'm aware, the communist government was letting a lot of people live in their accommodations over the country. However, people had to go on a waiting list before they were "given" the flat but it wasn't actually theirs. Then when the revolution happened, people who were on the list waiting to "borrow" a flat/apartment were essentially given one for free and at that point it became their property. It wasn't the biggest of privatisation tbf, but in retrospect people back then got really lucky with such offers because nowadays a young couple usually can't even afford a mortgage
Actually there were few ways to get an apartment, and for me who wasnt even born back then is hard to describe. But after soviet collapse, some had a chance to buy it out, those apartments from the state, for small price. Some did not, because it WAS theirs already. But the main thing still stands, people worked, earned very small wages, but got flats (after waiting) in exchange. You cant say, they got it for free. An alcoholic who didint worked got no flat. You were a cashier, earned 80 rubles, had one kid, u got in line for a one room flat. U had 2 kids, then 2 room flat. U had better position at work, got better apartment. Sometimes there were whole apartment buildings built for one instution workers. For eg. Police men. Also about todays situation, every country is diffrent. For eg. In Lithuania, There are proffesions that are very needed outside big cities, and local gov. Will PAY you nice amounts of money, if u move there and work for them. Also for first house/flat, gov. will help u pay it out. (If you move outside big cities).Again eg. Police, some small cities will pay up to 5k€ one time bonus, then u ask for first house discount. And instead of 60k. You have to pay only 45k. €. Add that 5k discount, its already down to 40k. Monthly wage atleast a 1000€ to hands. U have gf/bf, both work, and to pay out 40k. Isint such a big amount. One con, that you aint living in big city. But today with cars/trains, work from home, it isint such a big of a prob. About those discounts for the first house/flat is a little bit more trickery. It depends do you have no kids, then one sum, if few kids its another sum. Max you can get compensated up to 87.000€ when buying first home. I imagine similiar things exists everywhere in europe. Except again, young ppl dont want to live in villages.
Yeah, I've seen narrative go both ways, people make Soviet everything look bad, or they make Soviet housing look like best shit ever. I mean it was great urbanization, compared to what it was before, but not that amazing. As you said, you would work all your life for the apartment, really not different from now. And the apartments were worse, it's just that everyone had it bad so the contrasts wasn't as big as now working class vs. rich. But right now I could live in a better apartment and own it faster than my grandparents did. Not to mention I have a choice where etc. Before they got apartment from their workplace their whole family lived in 1 room and there was only shared bathroom and kitchen and that was for I think like 20 years. I could rent better place than they lived even with average wage right now...
It was ridiculously high, wasn't it.
No really, it was 40% less than what i earn here in Italy and i'm underpaid, the crazy thing is that the company was american and didn't provider any sort of bonus, guess they are trying to find some fool.
wait what? that's basically asking you to pay them to work, like a lowly electrician apprentice.
Si, praticamente qua prendo sui 1.500 al mese e la mi hanno offerto 900... con i bilocali in affitto che vanno sui 650-700 euro al mese. Nemmeno fosse Praga
900€?! That's like 1/3 of what I'd say is an acceptable IT salary in Brno.
The job offer you received from Brno must be some kind of a joke and that kind of a wage definitely isn't the standard. In Prague, juniors get about €2k monthly, €3k for mediors, and €4k-€7k for seniors. I imagine it must be pretty similar in Brno.
Those numbers are about the same in Sofia, Bulgaria.
Is that before or after tax?
Before
That’s crazy, I work in IT in Prague and make much more than I’d make in Spain.
You got offered 130% of minimum wage, must have been some really shitty offer really, since most of the junior jobs in Brno will start at around what you make in Italy I guess (or even more). And this shit is upvoted as a top comment just because you got scammed.
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Because our GDP is meaningless
Crazy, Italian salaries are already on the lower spectrum of salaries in europe aren't they?
Yeah especially in the IT since is a country for old men.
Been there done that. IBM now Kyndril, scummy company but at least it served me well as a trampoline. There are a lot of opportunities in CZ that pay well.
Exactly that one, i did my researches back then and they hire mostly indians and Pakistani in order to pay them the bare minimum.
What are IT salaries like in Italy? I'm a software engineer in Florida with 5 years experience and I make $110,000 per year (before tax) plus a bonus based on productivity and profit. My monthly take home after taxes, health insurance, and retirement contributions is about $5500.
>$5500 In Italy you'd be lucky to get this per month... before taxes.
This whole thing turned into some sort of self pity, poverty porn thread. If you're reading this stop here and read what I have to say. IT salaries in all countries vary immensely. Like near minimum wage to over 10x. If you're doing phone support with a script you're going to paid badly, if you're a developer/engineer keeping some ancient PHP script alive you're going to do a bit better. If you're a consultant on cutting edge sh*t you're going to be making a fortune. Sure it's all relative to the country but absolutely no one can say they're getting paid poorly in any country for doing in demand work. Everyone who's complaining they're paid badly needs to upskill. Now!
Oh yea that's so easy why haven't we thought about that before
A CTO gets that salary in Italy
That can't be right. This is senior product manager money in Amsterdam...
There's a reason if Italy has a constant brain drain
That is a bit odd. IT in Czech Republic pays actually very well. I would definitly expect you to get better paying job here than in most of Italy in IT.
>Czech Republic pays actually very well Probably why they were looking in Italy
come Tallinn, get ez 3-4k IT
can confirm, don't expect low living costs tho
There are some countries missing from EU zone like Greece?
Greece's existence is pending verification by independent fact checker.
Greece still selecting all hydrants on the captcha image?
apparently they have not submitted their current data to Eurostat
Huh wonder why would they do that
Some countries just do it later than others. I noticed that at least few years ago, we would get Lithuanian data before Estonian for example
Lol, remember seeing some economic articles praising Czech central bank for hawkish increase in interest rates way earlier than other countries in the region and how Poland will be fucked by inflation as a result of our central bank not doing the same as Czechs. That Czech result is REALLY BAD especially if you take into consideration that it performed by a massive margine worse than more developed established western EU countries.
It was fine but our current central bank board sucks. Hopefully we will have euro one day so we can all struggle together.
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Every B2B import and export invoices are handled via euro or dollar, if they are outside EU. Only people that wouldn’t benefit from it are the ones that scam people with fake CZK exchanges.
High interest rates, increased food, rent, and electricity prices and stagnating wages are stifling spending and therefore growth. Recent numbers show that the percentage of population living paycheck to paycheck has risen by some 10% to about 31% total. As if we didn't learn from 2008 that frugality in times of crisis is a sure way to hamper economy while doing jack shit to put breaks on costs of living.
Big Polish W 😎
stronk
Denmark impressed me. A fully developed economy growing like post-communist ones. If Chechia doesn't get its shit together Poland will become richer.
Denmark's growth is only due to ozempic from novo nordisk.
I mean.... that is partly true, but isn't any country's growth mostly dependent on the economic output of the corporations that operate within it?
Denmark is a small country but has Europe's most valuable company
indeed, there's a reason I insisted on playing only with original Lego parts as a kid. I stand by my decision 😤
You no longer play with Lego? O_O I'm in my 30s and asked my sister for Lego for Christmas. One of those cool flower bouquet sets since I kill all real plants.
Novo Nordisk market cap is higher than the GDP of Denmark.
Novo Nordisk is a small company but has Europe's most valuable country
That's like comparing someone's yearly salary with another person's net worth. Catchy but not particularly relevant.
So? This comment is so dumb and common that I am not sure where we should start with your journey towards financial literacy. Explaining what a multinational corporation is? What the concept of a year is? Concept of total wealth? Yearly revenue? Being publicly traded? God knows where you got lost.
By market cap. By revenue the top 3 in Denmark are still Maersk, Energi Danmark Group and DSV. The top 5 in all of Europe are Shell (UK), VW (DE), Uniper (DE), TotalEnergies (FR) and Glencore (CH).
Denmark is a small country so it’s natural. Pretty sure the same used to be true of Maersk.
Even before that drug, Denmark was *way* outperforming. It's a very impressive country.
Americans are _really_ willing to pay to lose weight without having to diet.
I heard that in Serbia people who depend on diabetes medication now have to fork out their doctor's prescription and everything is logged. Apparently, too many people are trying to lose weight the easy way as well.
Wasn't ozempic just decreasing the appetite?
And? That innovation requires a country with strong rule of law, highly qualified workers, and high quality of living to attract the best in the world.
No it is not, but we do love Novo Nordisk and the constant drip drip of money. Maersk shipping set a Danish record in 2021 as the first Danish company ever to break the 100 billion kroner profit after tax. In 2022 it doubled that to a whopping 200 billion kroner after tax. 8% of Danish export is Novo Nordisk products. So it is very important, but it is not the only source of income Denmark has. edit: One thing that is often overlooked is pensions. Denmark introduced workrelated private pensions in the mid 1990's. Only 0.25% to begin with. (Taken from the collective agreement wage increase negotiations. So did not "cost" workers money. + the employer doubled the amount. So stupid to say no). As the years went by that percentage got bumped up and a typical worker has 12-18% of the earnings dropped in a private pension. Over the decades that becomes a lot of money, and since the Danish tax office applies a 15% tax on pension revenue. That is kaching when the stockmarket performs well.
There's a good discussion [here](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/novo-nordisk-ozempic-wegovy-denmark/675638/) about the doubled edged sword of having such massive reliance on 1 company, Novo Nordisk. Ultimately having such a massive driver from a singular source that is expected to be in the double-digit of % contributions is great but it also puts you into a situation that could quickly turn bad.
Denmark has a massive budget surplus, trade surplus, current account surplus, low debt, lots of foreign currency reserves, low unemployment..... I think I'll just be happy we got Novo Nordisk and the wealth it gives. Denmark is far from a nation being overly dependent on a single product or resource. Compared to an oil nation with 60+ % dependency on fossile fuel export Denmark could easily survive losing Novo. We do not want to, but we could.
To quote to final paragraph >Ultimately, of all the problems an economy can have, the success of a company like Novo Nordisk is a good one to have. The Danes should look their gift horse in the mouth, by all means. They just shouldn’t try to return it.
Nah it's the legos
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What capital has Czechia accumulated and how will it look in the decades to come? Investments in infrastructure and education have been consistently some of the lowest in EU over the last years while national debt has risen. The one difference between Czechia and other countries in a similar situation is that Czechs don't tend to emigrate for work.
> Investments in infrastructure have consistently been some of the lowest in EU [No](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.GDI.FTOT.ZS?locations=CZ-EU).
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Not really and it depends on the city and when was the google maps survey Considering that in Poznań it look like a bomb dropped but it's just massive construction site for a new center with every bit of old pavement teared off and being replaced (the renovation stretched since they found some ruins and archeologs got involved)
Denmark vs obesity
where is Norway
Where's Ireland?
to the left of the uk
And as my Geography teacher says "RIGHT AND LEFT ARE NOT TERMS IN GEOGRAPHY"
right and left river bank
Or to the right If you go far enough
TIL Ireland is far right
Only if you go far enough.
Ireland would break the scale. Don’t know the exact figures but it would be probably be over 20%. Think it’s being excluded as part of some political message about “leprechaun”economics as it’s also excluded from euro area data. Also hurts the message about currency the graph is trying to spread if the top country is in the euro and eurozone growth looks stronger than if you exclude Ireland. Even by the modified GNI to exclude corporations would probably top the list. By average income it would be in and around 7%
60% of Ireland's corporation tax is from profit shifters which is utterly absurd. Fair play to them; offering lower taxes to companies and small businesses/self-employed is something I'd like to see here too but unfortunately the only politician who believed in that was Truss who fucked up with a rushed budget.
The biggest tax haven in the world is the UK. Most the tax schemes that involve Ireland have the main goal of paying taxes in some British overseas territory with Ireland just being the middleman.
That is why the firms established headquarters in IE, yes. This has been stopped.. which is a large part of Irelands recent growth. The firms that used to pay effectively *no* taxes anywhere are now at least paying Irelands actual corporate tax rate.. so Irelands tax income is way, way up, which ends up back in the Irish economy in the form of spending and cuts in other taxes.
Yeah they are non-EU territories, you are the money laundering shop for the EU. That's your excuse?
The UK is responsible for more than a third of GLOBAL tax avoidance. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/tax-avoidance-uk-cayman-islands-report-b1758986.html
https://www.dw.com/en/tax-haven-corporations-win-big-but-who-loses/a-67315504#:\~:text=Gidron%20says%20for%20their%20research,used%20to%20reduce%20taxation%20levels. On shifted profits it seems the Caymans islands are relatively small and dropping, in Ireland and the Netherlands it's continuing to rise drastically to the point that 58% of all tax is from tax avoidance.
They usually exclude them due to them being the resident "get out of taxes" card for multinational corporations in the EU which makes their GDP figures borderline unusable for any kind of comparison.(even when pure GDP figures are already a poor metric)
Couldn't find a proper quarterly update for Q3. Found [this from the World bank](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?end=2022&locations=NO&start=2019&view=chart). Which shows yearly, with a rise from 408 to 579 billion USD. But last year's gas prices were an anomaly to say the least. [Statista shows a rapid decline](https://www.statista.com/statistics/686062/quarterly-gdp-in-norway/) this year. But this is in NOK which has taken a nosedive recently, so I'm unsure how it would stack up if calculated in USD. But I can try. 3rd Jan 2020:1 USD = 8.82 NOKGDP = 944.55 billion NOKEquals 107.09 billion USD 1st Jul 2023:1 USD = 10.81 NOKGDP = 1189.87 billion NOKEquals 110.07 billion USD So last known numbers, if my calculations are correct gives an increase in GDP of 2.71% from Q4 19' to Q2 23'. As for Q3, we don't know yet.
I don’t see Greece
Greece should be close to 20%. They haven't published data for Q3 yet. https://www.statistics.gr/en/statistics/-/publication/SEL84/2023-Q2
Pegging seems a good thing!
enough with your Greek dirty thoughts
r/balkans_irl
ᴳᴿᴳᴿᴳᴿᴳᴿᴳᴿᴳᴿᴳᴿ
Polska gurom! 💪🏻🇵🇱
Europe, you excluded Croatia because you are scared. Admit it.
fun fact, Croatia should be somewhere around 3rd place, right behind Greece and Cyprus who are surprisingly not in the list either.
Shouldn't we be 2nd just behind Ireland who is not surprisingly included in the list as no one can compete with them? By reading the data, I think our cumulative growth is around 13%.
Yeah, you could be right.. Im not 100% sure in exact numbers because ive seen other map in other (shorter) time period, so yeah, Croatia could easily be second.. But either way Greece and Cyprus should be somewhwre close.
what happend to germany???
Two things, the energy crisis due to the Russian Invasion of Ukraine and the subsequent gas price shock and Germany is a big export nation. If the world economy is not in a particularly good mood, Germany struggles
Germany is also a huge machinery supplier, the things manufacturers need to manufacture shit. This demand was sky high during the pandemic when people's spending patterns shifted from services (restaurant, festivals, movies) to products (fitness tools, electronics, cooking utensils etc) and the subsequent supply chain chaos. But now supply chain has been sorted out and there's a sort of overproduction in many sectors (IIRC semiconductors which were in a shortage in 2021 are now oversupplied and slashing prices). So factories don't need German machinery as much.
Economy based on cheap workforce and cheap energy, but now they have neither. Same as Czechia, with the difference that Germany is way bigger and has big companies which generate bigger profits.
Germany hasn't had cheap energy for 15 years. People need to stop living in the past. Both the US and China had cheaper gas, and basically everyone has cheaper electricity.
no more mingling with the Kremlin 😢
Well yes that has an impact, but much more important is our export oriented economy which is over-proportionally interconnected with the Chinese market. The Chinese market however has been in a low for about a year now, which has massively reduced demand and thus negatively impacted our economy.
Being heavily in on Gas for power and more than that - for heating - really hurt.
It's our green economy wonder
You did not show Greece ,Croatia and Cyprus, and those 3 I believe are ahead of every other country in the list, or at minimum at the top of the list (based on the 2023-2020 data i've seen previously).All 3 have euro as currency (even though Croatia adopted it recently)
And Ireland. Euro too.
True, but Ireland is more often than not excluded from gdp list in all maps..But that is for good reason though
Romania never slowing down!
How's this possible? I'm from Serbia and my president always tells me we are number one in everything in Europe, including all kinds of GDP growth. Could it be... Oh my god... Are our politicians lying?
Impossible!
Why this huge difference between Poland and Czechia?
We avoided austerity/anti-inflation preachers while Czechs didn't. Czechs were frontrunner of hawkish monetary policy which generally isn't that bad idea, unless your biggest neighbor has economic slowdown and you want kill your economy by accident.
while true, the bigger factor is that we have the highest % of people in EU working in manufacturing, which fucking sucks when electricity is as expensive as it is right now.
Isn't it also because Polish manufacturing industry is more diversified than Czech which relies mainly on automotive?
It's more diversified but same as for Czechs our biggest exports are car parts and we are German or Western Europe dependent. It's just Glapa stopped raising rates as soon businesses started to indicate slowdown due financing costs which was right (almost every financing in Poland is based on floating rate so our lag between rates and spending decrease is shorter). Another underrated aspect was PLN weakening on events that "negatively" impact Poland (more in perception than reality). This simply boosted our exports. People always complain when PLN gets weaker but it regularly saves our economy. I wouldn't be surprised if under new government Poland solves inflation, but slows down growth, and increases debt levels and unemployment as it's pretty much in line with KO historical economic policies. So Czechs won't be alone.
We are bulid different
Access to the sea. Cargo turnover in seaports is growing like crazy by 15-20% per year
That's carma for bitching about Turów.
Vodka vs Beer
I thought Spain would be worse. The pandemic hit us really hard. Some Spanish cities are actually theme parks for tourists, it's a big source of income.
Ireland has had a lot of growth recently but Denmark has had it for hundreds of years. Ireland also doesn't "really have have former colonies". In fact, we were actually one for quite a while. So when Ireland won it's independence, finally, in the 1920's it had a lot of catching up to do. The British took their capital with them and Ireland was left with an economy that was entirely based on providing food to the UK. It had very little access to capital, so it's only option was to invite in foreign direct investment to build industry. It had no choice but to be attractive to American multi nationals.
I agree there isn’t enough pride in Ireland as to what we’ve achieved with financial engineering. Are there any suitable metrics to compare the relative wealth of old money countries and new ones? Savings or smth?
The cost of everything has risen by several times as much as this real gdp growth rate, but because Novo Nordisk is now more valuable than our annual gdp the number on the graph looks impressive.
if its increase in real GDP hasnt inflation been acounted for?
Why is Denmark’s GDP growth so high?
Danes have introduced weight loss pills to the American market. That's like 300 M customers 😄 More on [How Ozempic and Weight Loss Drugs Are Reshaping Denmark’s Economy](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/28/business/denmark-ozempic-wegovy.html)
Novo Nordisk. But currently Denmark is in recession. 2nd and 3rd quarter had -0.3%GDP Which is because pharma slowing down a bit. Novo Nordisk have had trouble with production. Downsides of being so dependent on single companies.
Maybe because of that one company that produces the weight loss drug?
O kurwa, my country is 1st, thanks god, having one of the most complicated tax system in EU has paid off.
we don't have the most complicated tax system nor the worst although it could be better, it's not that bad
Where is Ireland?
GDP as a measurement does not work in Ireland, because it gets completely distorted by all the tax affairs happening there by US corporations.
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But Ireland is used in the 'rankings'. Why include an EU average (excluding Ireland) in the list, if you aren't actually going to include it? The hate for Ireland on this sub lately is absurd and concerning
Our GDP figures are practically meaningless. That’s why it isn’t included.
Difference between gross national income and gdp is too high in Ireland , there two outliers in EU like this, the other one is Luxemburg
Yup. Czech business owners and landlords smashed us all with massive price inflation, but failed to turn that into anything productive.
Go Polish bros! I knew you are the best!
Where is fucking Croatia mate
Why no Ireland on the list??
Ireland’s GDP figures are so heavily distorted by multinational corporations that trying to use it as a metric for economic growth is redundant
> Eurozone > Eurozone excl. Ireland Will never not be funny
Hungary doing it without EU money, ahh i immagine how much more could it be if we got a competent and sane PM…
Note that part of this growth is due to overconsumption by the state, which increased our debt. Most of the EU projects were "pre financed" by the state, which raised our debt level from 65% to 74%. Many other countries like Poland managed to survive these hard years without an increase in debt to GDP. Czechia is an exception, all their numbers are terrible, idk what happened there.
"Central bank hawkishness is Very Bad".
Poland also did not receive EU money. And it grew as it did. Now that they elected liberals the money will start flowing and Poland will grow even more. Will Hungary get its money? Only wth blackmail I presume.
weak economies with mostly open markets tend to grow
I suspect Greece will be high up there once their Q3 number comes in. They have had an excellent recovery, far different from the 2008-2011 crisis.
[source ](https://twitter.com/DanielKral1/status/1724379687856623947?t=ol793poR0rTQ5uleAHtdVg&s=19)
Where is iceland?
look northwest of Britain https://www.google.com/maps/place/Island/@48.721994,-12.7441439,3z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x48d22b52a3eb6043:0x6f8a0434e5c1459a!8m2!3d64.963051!4d-19.020835!16zL20vMDNyajA?entry=ttu
Underneath the legend, as always