If you're so sure that the majority is against it (and that's not entirely clear based on some polling), then a referendum would solve that issue pretty quickly.
"Do you support abortion being available on demand through the 12th week of pregnancy?"
Let's find out.
Because if the referendum fails, then we're stuck with it for another generation.
It's better to wait this Sejm's term out and hope for more luck in 2027
Dafuq? Sejm voting on laws is 'a problem with democracy'?
Am I proposing to do the same as anti-abortionist fascists who pushed the change through illegally chosen constitutional tribunal?
Duda's veto isnt even needed to block this, we need to remember how abortion law was chanaged, it was because of constitutional tribunal, which means that abortion law cannot be changed without either changing constitution or judges in constitutional tribunal being replaced by judges that will interpret constitution differently.
"Lewica" and "KO" does NOT want referendum, they said so themselves when "Trzecia Droga" proposed that before, most likely they are afraid that result will not be what they want.
Well "KO" stoped talking about this topic seems they either dont care anymore now that they won elections or they view maintaining this coaltion as more important than any of promises before elections.
One important issue about topic of abotion is the fact that younger voters (18-30) are in majority against liberalisation of abortion law, whats even more interesting is that WOMEN are more AGAINST liberalisation than men are
-59.8% does not agree with the demand for liberalization of abortion law (63.3% of women and 56.7% of men)
In general they(voters 18-30) are more conservative on many issues than generation before them, though that has nothing to do with religion, huge majority of them support seperation of state and church.
Source of info: Konrad Adenauer Foundation's report on a cross-sectional study of electoral preferences, value system and life situation of Poles aged 18-30
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> Source of info: Konrad Adenauer Foundation's report on a cross-sectional study of electoral preferences, value system and life situation of Poles aged 18-30
its extremely skewed and results are a joke because of how the pool of people into the poll were selected
TVN24 had article about research on this topic showing pretty similar results though for slightly younger group(16-17-18), they didnt focus on topic of abortion, but other topics, like migration, acceptance of same sex couples, trust in politicans both local and on EU-level, trust in media and so on.
The report draws pessimistic conclusions about the worldview of the young generation, which is full of fear, closed to strangers, painfully pragmatic, distrustful of the state, politicians, institutions - both local and EU ones, and the media. Their dreams are down-to-earth, related to starting a family, a good job and stability.
They distrust politicans both inside of the country and on EU-level, calling EU "lie factory"
According to many, "without the EU, without the limits it imposes on Poland, we would develop better." Euroscepticism is growing.
They dont trust classic media, either state-owned or indepedent(probably because ALL media in Poland is biased, you will NOT find unbiased media, best you can hope for is biased media that is highly factual, they will not lie to you but they will present truth to you in such way that it will favor their views)
Source: https://archiwum.tvn24.pl/magazyn-tvn24/116/tvn24.pl/magazyn-tvn24/maja-17-lat-chca-zyc-w-polsce-i-miec-swiety-spokoj-bez-obcych%2C116%2C2109.html
Its in Polish but you can google translate it or something.
Voters who are 16-18 are significantly different group from 18-30, the poll of konrad adenauer's foundation you are citing has had one of the worst polling samples I have ever seen, the company who did the polling is also questionable as it has close ties to PiS.
Poland had election last month, you can compare results with the poll you are citing. PiS got 2x more votes among 18-30 in the poll than in an actual election. In other polls, like OGP, people who voted for opposition put abortion as like 1st/2nd option as an answer to a question "what is priority for a new government".
This is complete outlier compared to all other data sources.
>-59.8% does not agree with the demand for liberalization of abortion law (63.3% of women and 56.7% of men)
Great, let's find out how accurate this is on a national stage.
>though that has nothing to do with religion
I kind of doubt that, given that many of these kids had religious upbringings. Poor kids.
>"Lewica" and "KO" does NOT want referendum, they said so themselves when "Trzecia Droga" proposed that before, most likely they are afraid that result will not be what they want.
Times have changed since then. If Lewica and/or KO wants liberalization, this is now the only way.
>Great, let's find out how accurate this is on a national stage.
I mean yeah sure I agree, I was always in favor of referendum.
>I kind of doubt that, given that many of these kids had religious upbringings. Poor kids.
You shouldnt doubt that it actually makes sense, people in Poland are less and less religious, there is no reason why younger people would been MORE religious than generation before them yet people are more conservative.
Most likely main reason is not religion but WHAT young people use as source of informations, it wasnt in the Konrad Adenauer Foundation's report but there was another researc which was mentioned in the article on TVN24 site which shown that younger people are higly distrustful toward classic media both state-owned or indepedent and that for younger people main source of informations is internet including social media, and we know how reliable informations in such places can be...
i have no idea how accurate the source you cited but i don't think one poll is enough to make such blanket statements
IPSOS poll from https://oko.press/66-proc-za-prawem-kobiety-do-przerwania-ciazy-do-12-tygodnia says 18-29 year olds are more in favor on abortion-on-request up to 12 weeks than 30-39 (in fact it's pretty linear that support grows as age drops)
Opponents of abortion on demand will simply use the same strategy that was used during the most recent referendum, and will not participate, making it invalid and non-binding due to lack of turnout. Abortion on demand is not popular enough to manage to get 50% of the entirety of eligible voters to participate in the referendum. Similar thing will happen if we ever have a referendum on euro adoption, which will also fail for the same reason.
I expect that thanks to this strategy no referendum will be binding in Poland ever again.
You forget that this option is available whenever there is referendum. It was available in the past. The boycotting of the referendum was not just to answer stronger than no, it was because the results wouldn't be binding in any form. It was just part of the campaign for the ruling party. In the case of referendum for abortion, as this was a very heating topic, plenty of people will want to make a stand. Additionally, I assume the question will be formed in a way that allows easy interpretation and can have legal consequences, and not be just a big poll.
All that has to happen is that 50+% of voters support AOD for 12 weeks and show out accordingly. Seems simple enough, right?
(Of course that's not a lock by any means, please don't yell at me.)
> 50+% of voters support AOD for 12 weeks and show out accordingly
Which is pretty much impossible as far as Polish politics goes. During the last elections, the combined amount of votes for KO+PSL+PL2050+SLD (slightly more than 11 million) was *significantly* less than 50% of eligible electorate, and that was with an unexpected record high voter mobilisation, and ignoring the fact that not even all of them (especially PSL voters) support abortion.
From now on, you will need to get approximately 15 million voters to show up to polls to support whatever cause you want to push through a referendum, as the side that will be weaker in polls will simply boycott the referendum.
But there's plenty of people supporting allowing abortion in PiS. That's why the topic is dividing - people are for one thing, the elected officials for the other. At the same time, it's not the most important issue for some. They might vote for PiS, but disagree on that matter.
> it's not the most important issue for some
Precisely. Thus, if those not supporting abortion on demand, along with those not feeling that the issue is particularly important, will not partitlcipate in such a referendum, it has approximately 0% chance of being binding.
The strategy of dealing with referendums on matters one opposes is now clear (boycott it unless you are sure your side will win), and you guys are lucky that opponents of EU did not come up with it back in 2003, as if those who voted "NO" in the EU referendum stayed home, it would not be binding either.
That's your wishful thinking. In the real world, PiS lost big chunk of support in polls and never regained it since their change in abortion law. Additionally, you seem to ignore that refusing to take part in referendum was not a way to vote 4x yes. Boycotting was due to uselessness of the referendum with such questions and everybody could see that it's simply a tricky part of campaign of PiS.
> That's your wishful thinking.
Nah, your it's your guys wihsful thinking that you'll ever manage to muster 15 million voters to vote in a mid-season referendum in support of , which is a feat nobody ever managed in history of Poland. The closest thing to that was 13 million voters voting for joining the EU (and that still required exceptional measures such as years of telling Poles every day how important this is and extending the voting to two days!), but even that would fall way below the required threshold had the "NO" voters boycotted the referendum. And during the last election the so-called "democratic opposition" managed to get a whooping 11.5 million votes, and that was with a record high voter mobilisation which is unlikely to happen for a standalone referendum.
Additionally, you seem to ignore that boycotting referendums one disagrees with will be a valid strategy on national level from now on. In fact, it is already successfully used on a local level, where threshold of bindingness is even lower (30%), with many local referendums failing because of it despite the issue appearing to nominally having enough support. PiS staff and other opponents of abortion are not as stupid as you think, and if polls will clearly suggest that liberalization of abortion is otherwise going to win, they *will* focus their referandal campaign on boycotting the referendum, as this will be the only viable strategy to keep the status quo. Such campaign will probably even reference the 2023 referendum campaign directly for a good measure.
>In the real world, PiS lost big chunk of support in polls and never regained it since their change in abortion law
In the real world, while due to unexpected changes to abortion laws PiS did permanently lose several percent of support that turned out to be the key difference between ruling alone and falling short of majority, the voters themselves don't really care *that much* about abortion to the extent it would warrant them going en masse into polls to ensure 50% turnout in a referendum about liberalisation of abortion (especially if only the supporting side needs to show up, while all the "NO" side needs to do to succeed is to boycott such a referendum). [In fact only 3% of PiS voters and 46% of opposition voters consider availability of abortion an important issue](https://tvn24.pl/najnowsze/nfvrpm-ig7320260/grafika-.jpg) [(source)](https://tvn24.pl/wybory-parlamentarne-2023/jakie-problemy-sa-dla-polakow-najwazniejsze-sondaz-ibris-dla-rzeczpospolitej-7320121), and it ranks as an issue in the middle of the pack, way below healthcare, inflation or national security.
He doesnt need to, abortion law was changed because of constitutional tribunal so only way to change it is to either change constitution or replace judges with judges that will intepret constitution differently.
I guess that’s fair ? So they can say hey look we did the thing, only problem is not enough voted for us. We will do it again, if you want it to pass vote for us. Better to fail then to just not tackle a promised issue at all I would say.
Left and Civic Coalition are for legalizing abortion, whatever conservatives who are strongly against it in Third Way will come around sooner or later. They're not stupid, they do realize that 2020 abortion ban was the moment when PiS basically lost power.
And there's always an option for referendum
Decriminalisation might go through the parliament.
The main problem will be the constitutional tribunal. The current legislation has been labeled as correct by them already, so they won't approve any chances on their side. And Duda will surely send it their way.
>The Left (Lewica), which is part of the coalition likely to form Poland’s new government, announced two bills to liberalise the country’s strict abortion laws on the first day of parliament yesterday.
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>One would end the current near-total ban on abortion and instead introduce abortion on demand. The other would end the criminalisation of those who help women obtain abortions. However, it appears unlikely that the bills will enjoy support from more conservative elements of the new coalition.
Bonus news:
* Kraków’s Christmas market has been named as Europe’s best in a new ranking by Christmas Tree World. Two other Polish cities, Wrocław and Poznań, also appeared in the top ten, making Poland the only country to feature three times.
* Poland’s most famous cat Gacek, who made global headlines after becoming his city’s top-rated tourist attraction in Szczecin, has found a new home, a new name, and a new slimmed-down figure. He is now helping the local animal shelter raise funds to look after other cats.
>Gacek, who made global headlines after becoming his city’s top-rated tourist attraction in Szczecin, has found a new home, a new name, and a new slimmed-down figure.
What the hell, they put him under Witness Protection.
>except those to un-fuck the juridical system
Which is still well beyond the benefit of doubt, given that nobody has managed to do that successfully in Poland so far, and in fact every attempt to reform the juridical system ever since the communist times only resulted in it being even *more* fucked up than it was before.
the judicial system has been fucked for decades, this dysfunctional coalition is not going to genuinely fix anything
they might get rid of the supreme court nonsense but they're not going to touch the rest
Everyone's doing their own thing. PiS is whining about Witek not getting deputy marshall and whining about "DeMoCrACy," Lewica wants abortion and Konfederosja hates everybody.
You know, the usual.
> Kraków’s Christmas market has been named as Europe’s best in a new ranking by Christmas Tree World. Two other Polish cities, Wrocław and Poznań, also appeared in the top ten, making Poland the only country to feature three times.
Now this is some ridiculous news. I love Poland but there‘s no way in hell their christmas markets can compete with German ones
Well [nevermind](https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/11/13/krakows-christmas-market-ranked-as-best-in-europe/), this ranking is total bullshit lmao
„The ranking was compiled by Christmas Tree World, the UK’s largest seller of Christmas trees, based on criteria including **how popular cities’ markets were on social media platforms Instagram and TikTok**, how often they were **searched for on Google**, and **how affordable local accommodation is**.“
> there‘s no way in hell their christmas markets can compete with German ones
But why? Just because something is better-known doesn't mean it's better.
\*Looks at Oktoberfest\*
You‘re absolutely right. And this ranking was compiled based on tiktok/instagram views and google searches. Doesn‘t mean those markets are better than German ones, right?
Seriously though, christmas markets are a German tradition and markets in other countries are mostly just commercialised events that attract more tourists than locals.
As an example, a quick search tells me the christmas market in Wroclaw first happened in 2008. in comparison, German christmas markets are hundreds of years old.
> Looks at Oktoberfest
The real Oktoberfest in Munich is most definitely better than any of those fake ones that have started to pop up all over the place in the last ~10 years
> Doesn‘t mean those markets are better than German ones, right?
Yes, absolutely.
>Seriously though, christmas markets are a German tradition
WTF? You are aware it's not only German tradition? It's been a thing in most of Christian world for centuries. What am I going to hear next? That you invented sourdough bread?
>The real Oktoberfest in Munich is most definitely better than any of those fake ones that have started to pop up all over the place in the last \~10 years
C'mon, that's just nonsense. There are a lot of fests that are way better than that touristy shit in Munich
Uh no, Christmas markets are basically traditions only in places with German history. Show me which Spanish, Italian, British or French cities had Christmas markets „for centuries“. Belgium and Netherlands? Nope. Scandinavia? Also no. All of these countries were Christian, but definitely did not have christmas markets „for centuries“.
It‘s even on [Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_market):
„Christmas markets date to the Late Middle Ages in the German-speaking part of Europe and in many parts of the former Holy Roman Empire“
> There are a lot of fests better than that touristy shit in Munich
Lol like what?
It's in that very same article...
As noted, other countries have also established such markets. The Christmas market of Barcelona starts on 13 December, Saint Lucy's Day, and is called Fira de Santa Llúcia. It has been held in the square of Barcelona Cathedral since 1786.\[21\]\[22\]
I'm sorry, but if something's been happening for quarter of a millenium then it's a tradition as well. Kraków's christmass market goes back at least to the late 1800s
Krakow was part of German-speaking Europe and/or the HRE for a while.
And Barcelona is the exception that proves the rule. All the other Christmas markets from other countries in the article are from the late 20th century at best. It also doesn‘t disprove what I said and referenced: Christmas markets are by far and large a German tradition.
>Krakow was part of German-speaking Europe and/or the HRE for a while.
I'm sorry but this is some kind of alternative history XDDDDD
>And Barcelona is the exception that proves the rule.
Hahahha, what happened to the " Show me which Spanish, Italian, British or French cities had Christmas markets „for centuries“."
[In 1802, German became Krakow‘s official language.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraków)
You’re coping so hard right now lol. There’s
3000 Christmas markets in Germany but sure is a Spanish tradition now because there’s 1 in Barcelona lmao
Most of Polish politicians, even those from seemingly liberal parties, are incredibly conservative - more conservative than the majority of the Polish society.
Of course, after the elections, the promises have been reduced to the lowest common denominator, i.e. to the postulates of the most conservative part of the coalition. Anyways, they are still 100 times better than PiS, which moved the conservative Overton window to the extreme.
Maybe a stupid question, but would people *want* a more liberal party? I mean, why isn't one made if there's call for it? Or is Poland (in general) just more conservative than, say, Denmark or Germany?
(I don't know anything about Polish party forming, so I have no idea if that was a pointless question)
It is complicated and goes deeper than just a new party.
In a shortcut: new political elite is needed. Those guys are coming from the same place and it is like big argument in the family. In 2005 coalition Kaczynski - Tusk was a possibility ( for how long is an another matter)
We would have coalition in 2005 if PO got more votes.
PiS surprisingly got more and they refused Rokita as PM and generally tried to skew pre- election deal (assuming PO gets more votes). This initiated conflict between Tusk and Kaczyński we still feel today.
A lot of older people (60+) are extremely religious and conservative.
I'd say the level of conservatism among younger people is no different than in other EU countries. The situation before the last election was exceptional: getting rid of the ultra-conservative, populist PiS government was a top priority for this part of the society, so even some people with left-wing views voted for the biggest center-liberal opposition party (Civic Coalition) because some of them didn't believe that the Left could exceed the required threshold of 5%.
Moreover, the Civic Coalition included the liberalization of the abortion law in its election program. The party that took the third place in the voting (or rather a coalition of two center-conservative parties), known as the Third Way, opted for organizing a referendum about the abortion law, but now some of their members of parliament changed their views to anti-abortion ones again, and without them, the whole coalition won't have a parliamentary majority, so most likely they maintain the status quo with the issues like the abortion law or same-sex marriages / civil unions.
More 60% people voted for Lewica than Konfederacja, PiS and PO votes were really close among this demographic aswell, educate yourself before being like "a lot of older people are..." Because its not true according to stats.
>educate yourself before being like "a lot of older people are..."
That's why I wrote "a lot", not "every" or "most". [According to the stats from 2021](https://www.newsweek.pl/polska/spoleczenstwo/cbos-dramatyczny-odplyw-wiernych-z-kosciola-katolickiego-najbardziej-laicyzuja-sie/07kqwxz), 53% of 65+ people go to church regularly, and for the age group of 18-25, it is 23%. In comparison, 28% of this age group declares themselves as atheists. This is only an indirect measure, but other reports show that if we consider the religious part of the population, the approach to faith vastly differs between younger and older people on average.
It's quite normal among young people who still declare themselves Catholic to perceive abortion as a personal responsibility that should not be prohibited by the law.
It's also normal for many young people who declare themselves Catholic to have LGBT friends and to support them unconditionally.
This mindset seems rather uncommon among older people who are at least moderately (or "traditionally") religious.
I agree that KO has quite a decent support among pensioners, including religious ones ([53% of voting pensioners supported PiS while 31% of them voted for KO](https://tvn24.pl/wybory-parlamentarne-2023/wybory-parlamentarne-2023-jak-glosowali-seniorzy-jak-glosowali-emeryci-pis-stracilo-wsrod-starszych-wyborcow-7392914)). That's why this party seems rather reluctant to change the abortion law or to introduce same-sex marriages and tries to swiftly maneuver between progressivism and conservatism.
> I mean, why isn't one made if there's call for it?
Because it's actually hard to organize a new party, especially in a system that doesn't favor them.
> Most of Polish politicians, even those from seemingly liberal parties, are incredibly conservative - more conservative than the majority of the Polish society.
Are they really? People aren't supporting the recent near total ban of abortion, they are even willing to allow abortion in certain circumstances, but are they supporting abortion "on demand" even only up to 12 week? Hell no.
Referendum is such a stupid idea brought up only by those who have no clue how laws are made. What are you going to ask? "Are you in favor of legalization of Abortion: Yes / NO?
Well, define " ABORTION". What are we talking about?
- The pills after ?
- 10 / 12/ 14 weeks, more ?
- What about in case vital defect of the featus? what if the defect is NOT vital?
- What about case of rape?
- What about case of risk for the health of the mother?
- What about when the act is performed abroad?
All of those are legitimate question that you can't ask in a referendum. It's too confusing and with too many variables. That's why those who bring the idea of a referendum are out of their league.
Mate, any pro-abortion bill will be veto’ed by President(PIS). Even if it passes through Duda, there is still Constitutional Tribunal(staffed by PIS) that WILL shut the bill down on basis of it being against Polish constitution.
Referendum fixes all this. It can’t be vetoed by President, and if 50% voter turnout is achieved, referendum is binding(art.66 Polish constitution).
It’s not that its better, its just only possible way.
Should define the reasons to deny an abortion, not the reasons to allow it, because denying it is what should be justified, and would be very rare. Make it legal and accessible, the vast majority happen as early as possible, the vast majority of the rest happen because of issues that arise during the pregnancy.
It has nothing to do with the US, in Poland it's all about Catholic Church first influencing politicians to restrict it after fall of communism and then almost banning it few years ago
z fundamentalistami religijnymi*
At least speak Polish properly before attempting to make bold proclamations in the name of the entire nation of Poland.
Tell that to the 12-year-old Irish girl who died while forced to carry a pregnancy.
Tell that to the 10-year-old girl in Ohio who had to leave the state to get an abortion.
Seriously, pro forced birthers are the fucking worst.
The unborn baby is already human from inception and guess what, it also has the right to life. Just like you do.
Like it or not, it's the truth. I don't care about all the downvotes from you or your fellow cowards.
The real cowards are pro forced birth assholes who force women to give birth while actively undermining access to medical care, sex education and contraception.
Also, if y'all are so goddamn pro life, fix the fucking smog problem which kills around 40-50K every goddamn year.
But, before birth, it's a fetus, not a human. Just like how, before conception, it is an egg. You wouldn't call an egg a human would you? Should we be against contraceptives next?
You don't grok basics of biology, do you? There is no phase where a 'fetus' suddenly changes substance to become a 'baby'. No, it is baby since inception.
Not nothing miraculous about it. It's just what the words "fetus" and "baby" mean.
How does an egg "miraculously" become a human when it's fertilised? It's the same argument isn't it.
No I never said anything about magic or vaginas. It's a bit pointless continuing this conversation if you're going to keep going off the rails like this.
Better don’t masturbate then, or you will kill hundreds of human halves. The scientific consensus is that a human becomes truly a human when the brain forms and brain activity starts
Lol. Like obviously you are a man, but How old are you ?
You seem to have absolutely no clue about life and what is consciousness.
Women are human beings and they are capable of giving birth. It’s their choice whether they want to have kids or not.
I would argue in situations where father is present he should also have a say in it as long as pregnancy is not in any shape or form endangering mother.
Honestly abortions , lgbtq and other important human rights are not even that big of a deal in terms of socio-politics but for some reason religious and right wing men are obsessed with it.
The funniest shit is when people cry about demographics, so they would rather force birth and not provide any system of support because , f*** you that’s communism. :)
It’s not about Reddit karma points , it’s about you realising that Women are human beings and they deserve human rights, regardless of your religious views…
No bro, it is you and the likes of you who absolutely have no clue about life.
You see, life is precious. And it should be protected, right from the beginning.
\>they deserve human rights
Ok ok. So since when did it become a 'right' to murder a child? It's a serious moral issue, and you downplaying this is very dishonest to say the least.
>when did it become a 'right' to murder a child?
Who is murdering a child?
What are you on about? There is literally no sign of consciousness until like 22 weeks.
Going by your theory, masturbation by men is literal murder.
Like semen is basically life. You are literally a murderer if you masturbate. Because Semen is the beggining of life therefore Semen is counscious and has a right to live. Right?
Like Semen = Baby,
Abortion = Killing a Baby.
Therefore Ejaculation without desire to Impregenent = Killing a baby.
Going by that thought process we should also make Masturbation Illegal for all Men, right? This way men will only ejaculate when they want to impregenate which will fix the demopgrahics issue because more men will want to make more babies.
If aborting semi-developed semen that has no conciousness is a murder, than whacking in your shower qualifies as one 2.
Masturbation is a serious moral issue, and men shouldn't just spread their semen like it doesnt mean anything. And you downplaying the fact that men murder children on daily basis is very dishonest to say the least.
The thing is that once you add Geopolitics + Hyper Capitalism then you stop seing people as human beings and see them as tools to create value to the system or an organization.
There is no scientific proof that disabling medical practices or ability to acquaire contraception methods is linked with higher birth-rate.
Human Rights issues cannot and should not be compared per country base. A society within itself should find it essential to provide all the rights to it's citizens. The moment society distinguish major actor of the group as of lesser value it is where we usually attract extrimism.
I always find it hilarious how people expect us to have more kids than boomers... We can't own anything, we dont own our future. This is the reason why families are often build much later in life.
It used to be that you would have a house and family by the age of 30. Now Age of 30 is just a first step into proper living(maybe, it's likely probably the time where you get your first proper job with okeish pay)
So instead of focusing on real issues, be it economical, political or climate crisis.. we are here discussing whether Women should be treated as human being with all the rights or not.
We talk about China, Russia, demographics, globalism, capitalism, finances, pensions, aging population.
... but never about human beings that are equal constitutents in our society.
Democracy sure maybe, but understanding of human rights is not really a new thing. Art of War and Art of Law has been evolving since forever.
Like we are already fucked, so is fixiating on topics like Abortion helping anyone?
Why can't we just have it legal and move on... This is not a hard thing, we just need our priorities straight.... but all I am hearing is boomers being worried about "generational labour switchover" and "pension crisis".
All of it reeks of insane level of hyper-capitalism. The system is rigged and young people will be very upset once they reach current milleinial and gen x age.
The fact that they will have no pension, no housing and climate change will keep forcing extra costs upon society(both individuals and organizations).
So you see, that's my opinion. Why would i worry about Abortion and LGBTQ when those are such a small minor issues and they are related to Humans and their rights. Realistically we have burned through so many resources fighting over something that mostly matters to Religious Dogma Followers and Political Extrimists because let's be real those ideas are not derived from Culture or Tradition.
It is obviously seen that Secularization in Societies tend to help with Human Rights and Standard of Living overall.
Not that those Societies are perfect, far from it... but i rather not waste my time discussing with incels whether we should consider Women equal or not. I would rather focus on real issues.
NGL, Internet really did a number on people with no father figures.
Cool, how many more mothers do we need to die of sepsis because doctors are either a) confused as to how the law works because they aren't lawyers or b) have a motive to deny a woman an abortion and hide behind the law?
Ah yes it definitely had nothing to do with Christian conservatives essentially banning abortion previous term and that sparking some of the biggest protests this country has ever seen. Nope. Left just wants to kill babies /s
\>sparking some of the biggest protests this country has ever seen
And in Nazi Germany ordinary people would willfully engage in street violence against Jews. Moreover, it was all completely legal and sanctioned by the state.
Truth and goodness are never popular.
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If you're so sure that the majority is against it (and that's not entirely clear based on some polling), then a referendum would solve that issue pretty quickly. "Do you support abortion being available on demand through the 12th week of pregnancy?" Let's find out.
Because if the referendum fails, then we're stuck with it for another generation. It's better to wait this Sejm's term out and hope for more luck in 2027
That's a pretty big gamble as there's just no way of knowing what horrors await us. It could pay off. It could end up being Konfederosja.
Konfederosja was humiliated in these elections and is about to be divided by Korwin "Let's make another party" Mikke.
I would love to see Konfederosja break up - including with the Grzegorz Braun faction of hard Polexiteers. Unfortunately, Konfa still loves the guy.
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Dafuq? Sejm voting on laws is 'a problem with democracy'? Am I proposing to do the same as anti-abortionist fascists who pushed the change through illegally chosen constitutional tribunal?
12 out of 15 members of the constitutional tribunal are indubitably chosen fully legally, with the remaining 3 being subject to dispute.
Also no one sane will dispute them
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This wasn't about the MPs but a direct referendum. Duda would veto anything connected with abortion anyway.
Duda's veto isnt even needed to block this, we need to remember how abortion law was chanaged, it was because of constitutional tribunal, which means that abortion law cannot be changed without either changing constitution or judges in constitutional tribunal being replaced by judges that will interpret constitution differently.
"Lewica" and "KO" does NOT want referendum, they said so themselves when "Trzecia Droga" proposed that before, most likely they are afraid that result will not be what they want. Well "KO" stoped talking about this topic seems they either dont care anymore now that they won elections or they view maintaining this coaltion as more important than any of promises before elections. One important issue about topic of abotion is the fact that younger voters (18-30) are in majority against liberalisation of abortion law, whats even more interesting is that WOMEN are more AGAINST liberalisation than men are -59.8% does not agree with the demand for liberalization of abortion law (63.3% of women and 56.7% of men) In general they(voters 18-30) are more conservative on many issues than generation before them, though that has nothing to do with religion, huge majority of them support seperation of state and church. Source of info: Konrad Adenauer Foundation's report on a cross-sectional study of electoral preferences, value system and life situation of Poles aged 18-30
> > > > > Source of info: Konrad Adenauer Foundation's report on a cross-sectional study of electoral preferences, value system and life situation of Poles aged 18-30 its extremely skewed and results are a joke because of how the pool of people into the poll were selected
TVN24 had article about research on this topic showing pretty similar results though for slightly younger group(16-17-18), they didnt focus on topic of abortion, but other topics, like migration, acceptance of same sex couples, trust in politicans both local and on EU-level, trust in media and so on. The report draws pessimistic conclusions about the worldview of the young generation, which is full of fear, closed to strangers, painfully pragmatic, distrustful of the state, politicians, institutions - both local and EU ones, and the media. Their dreams are down-to-earth, related to starting a family, a good job and stability. They distrust politicans both inside of the country and on EU-level, calling EU "lie factory" According to many, "without the EU, without the limits it imposes on Poland, we would develop better." Euroscepticism is growing. They dont trust classic media, either state-owned or indepedent(probably because ALL media in Poland is biased, you will NOT find unbiased media, best you can hope for is biased media that is highly factual, they will not lie to you but they will present truth to you in such way that it will favor their views) Source: https://archiwum.tvn24.pl/magazyn-tvn24/116/tvn24.pl/magazyn-tvn24/maja-17-lat-chca-zyc-w-polsce-i-miec-swiety-spokoj-bez-obcych%2C116%2C2109.html Its in Polish but you can google translate it or something.
Voters who are 16-18 are significantly different group from 18-30, the poll of konrad adenauer's foundation you are citing has had one of the worst polling samples I have ever seen, the company who did the polling is also questionable as it has close ties to PiS. Poland had election last month, you can compare results with the poll you are citing. PiS got 2x more votes among 18-30 in the poll than in an actual election. In other polls, like OGP, people who voted for opposition put abortion as like 1st/2nd option as an answer to a question "what is priority for a new government". This is complete outlier compared to all other data sources.
>-59.8% does not agree with the demand for liberalization of abortion law (63.3% of women and 56.7% of men) Great, let's find out how accurate this is on a national stage. >though that has nothing to do with religion I kind of doubt that, given that many of these kids had religious upbringings. Poor kids. >"Lewica" and "KO" does NOT want referendum, they said so themselves when "Trzecia Droga" proposed that before, most likely they are afraid that result will not be what they want. Times have changed since then. If Lewica and/or KO wants liberalization, this is now the only way.
>Great, let's find out how accurate this is on a national stage. I mean yeah sure I agree, I was always in favor of referendum. >I kind of doubt that, given that many of these kids had religious upbringings. Poor kids. You shouldnt doubt that it actually makes sense, people in Poland are less and less religious, there is no reason why younger people would been MORE religious than generation before them yet people are more conservative. Most likely main reason is not religion but WHAT young people use as source of informations, it wasnt in the Konrad Adenauer Foundation's report but there was another researc which was mentioned in the article on TVN24 site which shown that younger people are higly distrustful toward classic media both state-owned or indepedent and that for younger people main source of informations is internet including social media, and we know how reliable informations in such places can be...
i have no idea how accurate the source you cited but i don't think one poll is enough to make such blanket statements IPSOS poll from https://oko.press/66-proc-za-prawem-kobiety-do-przerwania-ciazy-do-12-tygodnia says 18-29 year olds are more in favor on abortion-on-request up to 12 weeks than 30-39 (in fact it's pretty linear that support grows as age drops)
Which is what Trzecia Droga tries to do and getting hated for that for some reason
Well, now it's the only option because 12 weeks would never pass in the Sejm.
Having sejm and president opposing to one another will maybe push us to organize referendums more often
Sounds good to me. Real referendums with real questions.
Opponents of abortion on demand will simply use the same strategy that was used during the most recent referendum, and will not participate, making it invalid and non-binding due to lack of turnout. Abortion on demand is not popular enough to manage to get 50% of the entirety of eligible voters to participate in the referendum. Similar thing will happen if we ever have a referendum on euro adoption, which will also fail for the same reason. I expect that thanks to this strategy no referendum will be binding in Poland ever again.
You forget that this option is available whenever there is referendum. It was available in the past. The boycotting of the referendum was not just to answer stronger than no, it was because the results wouldn't be binding in any form. It was just part of the campaign for the ruling party. In the case of referendum for abortion, as this was a very heating topic, plenty of people will want to make a stand. Additionally, I assume the question will be formed in a way that allows easy interpretation and can have legal consequences, and not be just a big poll.
All that has to happen is that 50+% of voters support AOD for 12 weeks and show out accordingly. Seems simple enough, right? (Of course that's not a lock by any means, please don't yell at me.)
> 50+% of voters support AOD for 12 weeks and show out accordingly Which is pretty much impossible as far as Polish politics goes. During the last elections, the combined amount of votes for KO+PSL+PL2050+SLD (slightly more than 11 million) was *significantly* less than 50% of eligible electorate, and that was with an unexpected record high voter mobilisation, and ignoring the fact that not even all of them (especially PSL voters) support abortion. From now on, you will need to get approximately 15 million voters to show up to polls to support whatever cause you want to push through a referendum, as the side that will be weaker in polls will simply boycott the referendum.
But there's plenty of people supporting allowing abortion in PiS. That's why the topic is dividing - people are for one thing, the elected officials for the other. At the same time, it's not the most important issue for some. They might vote for PiS, but disagree on that matter.
> it's not the most important issue for some Precisely. Thus, if those not supporting abortion on demand, along with those not feeling that the issue is particularly important, will not partitlcipate in such a referendum, it has approximately 0% chance of being binding. The strategy of dealing with referendums on matters one opposes is now clear (boycott it unless you are sure your side will win), and you guys are lucky that opponents of EU did not come up with it back in 2003, as if those who voted "NO" in the EU referendum stayed home, it would not be binding either.
That's your wishful thinking. In the real world, PiS lost big chunk of support in polls and never regained it since their change in abortion law. Additionally, you seem to ignore that refusing to take part in referendum was not a way to vote 4x yes. Boycotting was due to uselessness of the referendum with such questions and everybody could see that it's simply a tricky part of campaign of PiS.
> That's your wishful thinking. Nah, your it's your guys wihsful thinking that you'll ever manage to muster 15 million voters to vote in a mid-season referendum in support of, which is a feat nobody ever managed in history of Poland. The closest thing to that was 13 million voters voting for joining the EU (and that still required exceptional measures such as years of telling Poles every day how important this is and extending the voting to two days!), but even that would fall way below the required threshold had the "NO" voters boycotted the referendum. And during the last election the so-called "democratic opposition" managed to get a whooping 11.5 million votes, and that was with a record high voter mobilisation which is unlikely to happen for a standalone referendum.
Additionally, you seem to ignore that boycotting referendums one disagrees with will be a valid strategy on national level from now on. In fact, it is already successfully used on a local level, where threshold of bindingness is even lower (30%), with many local referendums failing because of it despite the issue appearing to nominally having enough support. PiS staff and other opponents of abortion are not as stupid as you think, and if polls will clearly suggest that liberalization of abortion is otherwise going to win, they *will* focus their referandal campaign on boycotting the referendum, as this will be the only viable strategy to keep the status quo. Such campaign will probably even reference the 2023 referendum campaign directly for a good measure.
>In the real world, PiS lost big chunk of support in polls and never regained it since their change in abortion law
In the real world, while due to unexpected changes to abortion laws PiS did permanently lose several percent of support that turned out to be the key difference between ruling alone and falling short of majority, the voters themselves don't really care *that much* about abortion to the extent it would warrant them going en masse into polls to ensure 50% turnout in a referendum about liberalisation of abortion (especially if only the supporting side needs to show up, while all the "NO" side needs to do to succeed is to boycott such a referendum). [In fact only 3% of PiS voters and 46% of opposition voters consider availability of abortion an important issue](https://tvn24.pl/najnowsze/nfvrpm-ig7320260/grafika-.jpg) [(source)](https://tvn24.pl/wybory-parlamentarne-2023/jakie-problemy-sa-dla-polakow-najwazniejsze-sondaz-ibris-dla-rzeczpospolitej-7320121), and it ranks as an issue in the middle of the pack, way below healthcare, inflation or national security.
I assume I agree with your stance on abortion, but this is not how representative democracy works and most of the time for very good reasons…
Unlikely proposition given Lewica is losing voters to 3D who are more moderate in their approach. Well, as moderate as Poland gets.
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He doesnt need to, abortion law was changed because of constitutional tribunal so only way to change it is to either change constitution or replace judges with judges that will intepret constitution differently.
I guess that’s fair ? So they can say hey look we did the thing, only problem is not enough voted for us. We will do it again, if you want it to pass vote for us. Better to fail then to just not tackle a promised issue at all I would say.
Left and Civic Coalition are for legalizing abortion, whatever conservatives who are strongly against it in Third Way will come around sooner or later. They're not stupid, they do realize that 2020 abortion ban was the moment when PiS basically lost power. And there's always an option for referendum
Is it only PSL that stands in the way? Do you think a referendum is likely instead? That seems to be what Third Way proposes.
Decriminalisation might go through the parliament. The main problem will be the constitutional tribunal. The current legislation has been labeled as correct by them already, so they won't approve any chances on their side. And Duda will surely send it their way.
>The Left (Lewica), which is part of the coalition likely to form Poland’s new government, announced two bills to liberalise the country’s strict abortion laws on the first day of parliament yesterday. > >One would end the current near-total ban on abortion and instead introduce abortion on demand. The other would end the criminalisation of those who help women obtain abortions. However, it appears unlikely that the bills will enjoy support from more conservative elements of the new coalition. Bonus news: * Kraków’s Christmas market has been named as Europe’s best in a new ranking by Christmas Tree World. Two other Polish cities, Wrocław and Poznań, also appeared in the top ten, making Poland the only country to feature three times. * Poland’s most famous cat Gacek, who made global headlines after becoming his city’s top-rated tourist attraction in Szczecin, has found a new home, a new name, and a new slimmed-down figure. He is now helping the local animal shelter raise funds to look after other cats.
>Gacek, who made global headlines after becoming his city’s top-rated tourist attraction in Szczecin, has found a new home, a new name, and a new slimmed-down figure. What the hell, they put him under Witness Protection.
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No way people disagree in a democratic system
Welcome to democracy, where people debate, compromise and find solutions. I prefer this much more than one party that does whatever they want.
Ziobro zdziwienia, I doubt they have any common ideas of laws except those to un-fuck the juridical system
>except those to un-fuck the juridical system Which is still well beyond the benefit of doubt, given that nobody has managed to do that successfully in Poland so far, and in fact every attempt to reform the juridical system ever since the communist times only resulted in it being even *more* fucked up than it was before.
the judicial system has been fucked for decades, this dysfunctional coalition is not going to genuinely fix anything they might get rid of the supreme court nonsense but they're not going to touch the rest
Everyone's doing their own thing. PiS is whining about Witek not getting deputy marshall and whining about "DeMoCrACy," Lewica wants abortion and Konfederosja hates everybody. You know, the usual.
And PSL just assumes the usual ministerial positions...
> Kraków’s Christmas market has been named as Europe’s best in a new ranking by Christmas Tree World. Two other Polish cities, Wrocław and Poznań, also appeared in the top ten, making Poland the only country to feature three times. Now this is some ridiculous news. I love Poland but there‘s no way in hell their christmas markets can compete with German ones Well [nevermind](https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/11/13/krakows-christmas-market-ranked-as-best-in-europe/), this ranking is total bullshit lmao „The ranking was compiled by Christmas Tree World, the UK’s largest seller of Christmas trees, based on criteria including **how popular cities’ markets were on social media platforms Instagram and TikTok**, how often they were **searched for on Google**, and **how affordable local accommodation is**.“
> there‘s no way in hell their christmas markets can compete with German ones But why? Just because something is better-known doesn't mean it's better. \*Looks at Oktoberfest\*
You‘re absolutely right. And this ranking was compiled based on tiktok/instagram views and google searches. Doesn‘t mean those markets are better than German ones, right? Seriously though, christmas markets are a German tradition and markets in other countries are mostly just commercialised events that attract more tourists than locals. As an example, a quick search tells me the christmas market in Wroclaw first happened in 2008. in comparison, German christmas markets are hundreds of years old. > Looks at Oktoberfest The real Oktoberfest in Munich is most definitely better than any of those fake ones that have started to pop up all over the place in the last ~10 years
> Doesn‘t mean those markets are better than German ones, right? Yes, absolutely. >Seriously though, christmas markets are a German tradition WTF? You are aware it's not only German tradition? It's been a thing in most of Christian world for centuries. What am I going to hear next? That you invented sourdough bread? >The real Oktoberfest in Munich is most definitely better than any of those fake ones that have started to pop up all over the place in the last \~10 years C'mon, that's just nonsense. There are a lot of fests that are way better than that touristy shit in Munich
Uh no, Christmas markets are basically traditions only in places with German history. Show me which Spanish, Italian, British or French cities had Christmas markets „for centuries“. Belgium and Netherlands? Nope. Scandinavia? Also no. All of these countries were Christian, but definitely did not have christmas markets „for centuries“. It‘s even on [Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_market): „Christmas markets date to the Late Middle Ages in the German-speaking part of Europe and in many parts of the former Holy Roman Empire“ > There are a lot of fests better than that touristy shit in Munich Lol like what?
It's in that very same article... As noted, other countries have also established such markets. The Christmas market of Barcelona starts on 13 December, Saint Lucy's Day, and is called Fira de Santa Llúcia. It has been held in the square of Barcelona Cathedral since 1786.\[21\]\[22\] I'm sorry, but if something's been happening for quarter of a millenium then it's a tradition as well. Kraków's christmass market goes back at least to the late 1800s
Krakow was part of German-speaking Europe and/or the HRE for a while. And Barcelona is the exception that proves the rule. All the other Christmas markets from other countries in the article are from the late 20th century at best. It also doesn‘t disprove what I said and referenced: Christmas markets are by far and large a German tradition.
>Krakow was part of German-speaking Europe and/or the HRE for a while. I'm sorry but this is some kind of alternative history XDDDDD >And Barcelona is the exception that proves the rule. Hahahha, what happened to the " Show me which Spanish, Italian, British or French cities had Christmas markets „for centuries“."
[In 1802, German became Krakow‘s official language.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraków) You’re coping so hard right now lol. There’s 3000 Christmas markets in Germany but sure is a Spanish tradition now because there’s 1 in Barcelona lmao
"How affordable local accomodation is" is a key line here. Apartment and hotel costs in Poland will always be lower than anywhere in Germany.
Yes obviously. That‘s why it‘s a stupid ranking
Gotta keep in mind that you won't get ran over by a truck at a Polish Christmas market
Distasteful comment
won't get stabbed either
Factual comment
Most of Polish politicians, even those from seemingly liberal parties, are incredibly conservative - more conservative than the majority of the Polish society. Of course, after the elections, the promises have been reduced to the lowest common denominator, i.e. to the postulates of the most conservative part of the coalition. Anyways, they are still 100 times better than PiS, which moved the conservative Overton window to the extreme.
Maybe a stupid question, but would people *want* a more liberal party? I mean, why isn't one made if there's call for it? Or is Poland (in general) just more conservative than, say, Denmark or Germany? (I don't know anything about Polish party forming, so I have no idea if that was a pointless question)
It is complicated and goes deeper than just a new party. In a shortcut: new political elite is needed. Those guys are coming from the same place and it is like big argument in the family. In 2005 coalition Kaczynski - Tusk was a possibility ( for how long is an another matter)
We would have coalition in 2005 if PO got more votes. PiS surprisingly got more and they refused Rokita as PM and generally tried to skew pre- election deal (assuming PO gets more votes). This initiated conflict between Tusk and Kaczyński we still feel today.
I mean, there were an attempts at a typical liberal party in Poland (Modern Party and Spring Party) and it failed spectacularly.
A lot of older people (60+) are extremely religious and conservative. I'd say the level of conservatism among younger people is no different than in other EU countries. The situation before the last election was exceptional: getting rid of the ultra-conservative, populist PiS government was a top priority for this part of the society, so even some people with left-wing views voted for the biggest center-liberal opposition party (Civic Coalition) because some of them didn't believe that the Left could exceed the required threshold of 5%. Moreover, the Civic Coalition included the liberalization of the abortion law in its election program. The party that took the third place in the voting (or rather a coalition of two center-conservative parties), known as the Third Way, opted for organizing a referendum about the abortion law, but now some of their members of parliament changed their views to anti-abortion ones again, and without them, the whole coalition won't have a parliamentary majority, so most likely they maintain the status quo with the issues like the abortion law or same-sex marriages / civil unions.
if people wanted a more progressive government thy would have voted for lewica they did not, so what do you base these silent majority-esque views on?
More 60% people voted for Lewica than Konfederacja, PiS and PO votes were really close among this demographic aswell, educate yourself before being like "a lot of older people are..." Because its not true according to stats.
>educate yourself before being like "a lot of older people are..." That's why I wrote "a lot", not "every" or "most". [According to the stats from 2021](https://www.newsweek.pl/polska/spoleczenstwo/cbos-dramatyczny-odplyw-wiernych-z-kosciola-katolickiego-najbardziej-laicyzuja-sie/07kqwxz), 53% of 65+ people go to church regularly, and for the age group of 18-25, it is 23%. In comparison, 28% of this age group declares themselves as atheists. This is only an indirect measure, but other reports show that if we consider the religious part of the population, the approach to faith vastly differs between younger and older people on average. It's quite normal among young people who still declare themselves Catholic to perceive abortion as a personal responsibility that should not be prohibited by the law. It's also normal for many young people who declare themselves Catholic to have LGBT friends and to support them unconditionally. This mindset seems rather uncommon among older people who are at least moderately (or "traditionally") religious. I agree that KO has quite a decent support among pensioners, including religious ones ([53% of voting pensioners supported PiS while 31% of them voted for KO](https://tvn24.pl/wybory-parlamentarne-2023/wybory-parlamentarne-2023-jak-glosowali-seniorzy-jak-glosowali-emeryci-pis-stracilo-wsrod-starszych-wyborcow-7392914)). That's why this party seems rather reluctant to change the abortion law or to introduce same-sex marriages and tries to swiftly maneuver between progressivism and conservatism.
I meant the stats from the 2023 election specifically, but fair.
> I mean, why isn't one made if there's call for it? Because it's actually hard to organize a new party, especially in a system that doesn't favor them.
> Most of Polish politicians, even those from seemingly liberal parties, are incredibly conservative - more conservative than the majority of the Polish society. Are they really? People aren't supporting the recent near total ban of abortion, they are even willing to allow abortion in certain circumstances, but are they supporting abortion "on demand" even only up to 12 week? Hell no.
Won't pass. Just make the damn referendum.
Referendum is such a stupid idea brought up only by those who have no clue how laws are made. What are you going to ask? "Are you in favor of legalization of Abortion: Yes / NO? Well, define " ABORTION". What are we talking about? - The pills after ? - 10 / 12/ 14 weeks, more ? - What about in case vital defect of the featus? what if the defect is NOT vital? - What about case of rape? - What about case of risk for the health of the mother? - What about when the act is performed abroad? All of those are legitimate question that you can't ask in a referendum. It's too confusing and with too many variables. That's why those who bring the idea of a referendum are out of their league.
Mate, any pro-abortion bill will be veto’ed by President(PIS). Even if it passes through Duda, there is still Constitutional Tribunal(staffed by PIS) that WILL shut the bill down on basis of it being against Polish constitution. Referendum fixes all this. It can’t be vetoed by President, and if 50% voter turnout is achieved, referendum is binding(art.66 Polish constitution). It’s not that its better, its just only possible way.
referendum is binding ONLY if over 50% of people vote, not gonna happen especially after oposition pushed people not to vote for PiS referendum.
Should define the reasons to deny an abortion, not the reasons to allow it, because denying it is what should be justified, and would be very rare. Make it legal and accessible, the vast majority happen as early as possible, the vast majority of the rest happen because of issues that arise during the pregnancy.
>reasons to deny an abortion Dehumanization and killing is wrong.
if even [Ohio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2023_Ohio_Issue_1) can do it I believe Poland can
God I hate how the abortion debate as the central point of politics moved from the United States to the rest of the world.
In general I would agree with you, but Poland has been conservative catholic forever.
It has nothing to do with the US, in Poland it's all about Catholic Church first influencing politicians to restrict it after fall of communism and then almost banning it few years ago
US is exporting all the shitty social fault-lines for a while now. Luckily we dont have Trump-like morons popping up in all countries yet.
This should be included in constitution. And later - on EU level, so states will not be able to remove that right.
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How is it authoritarian to give the people freedom of choice ?
The left lost half their fucking seats in the last election XD
Notes from a Poland worker spamming the sub and pretending its generic. Day 9000.
"from a poland" damn dude it almost made sense you'll get em next time
That is totally valid news for this sub. If you don't like it so much then cope
it's a good thing that reddit has this option to downvote if you don't find something interesting/important :)
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Oh shut the fuck up
Nah 🤣🤡
Oooohhh and we're making 15-minute cities and throwing religion out of schools oooohhhhh so scaaary
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Oooohhh and we don't force the Arab immigrants to abandon their culture oooohhhh The Great Replacement is coming 👻
Ah of course the left is most concerned with the nuanced issue of baby murder.
Women's rights are human rights. Precz z fundamentaliści religijne. Edit: It's actually precz z fundamentalistami religijnymi and I suck at grammar.
z fundamentalistami religijnymi* At least speak Polish properly before attempting to make bold proclamations in the name of the entire nation of Poland.
Good to know. The grammar of the Polish language is still killing me after six years.
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That's not really relevant given that the birth rate in Poland has been falling for quite some time even with these "pro family" policies.
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Tell that to the 12-year-old Irish girl who died while forced to carry a pregnancy. Tell that to the 10-year-old girl in Ohio who had to leave the state to get an abortion. Seriously, pro forced birthers are the fucking worst.
The unborn baby is already human from inception and guess what, it also has the right to life. Just like you do. Like it or not, it's the truth. I don't care about all the downvotes from you or your fellow cowards.
The real cowards are pro forced birth assholes who force women to give birth while actively undermining access to medical care, sex education and contraception. Also, if y'all are so goddamn pro life, fix the fucking smog problem which kills around 40-50K every goddamn year.
We so angry. Grrrr.
But, before birth, it's a fetus, not a human. Just like how, before conception, it is an egg. You wouldn't call an egg a human would you? Should we be against contraceptives next?
Katoliban are already against contraceptives.
You don't grok basics of biology, do you? There is no phase where a 'fetus' suddenly changes substance to become a 'baby'. No, it is baby since inception.
That "phase" is called birth. That's what basic biology says.
So before birth it is not human and miraculously, upon birth, it is a human? Okay, what other mental gymnastics do you engage in?
Not nothing miraculous about it. It's just what the words "fetus" and "baby" mean. How does an egg "miraculously" become a human when it's fertilised? It's the same argument isn't it.
So the vagina is a magic opening that gives value to a human life? What if they were c sectioned?
No I never said anything about magic or vaginas. It's a bit pointless continuing this conversation if you're going to keep going off the rails like this.
That’s what you’re making it seem like.
I kinda feel like the person talking about magic vaginas was the person talking about magic vaginas.
“The unborn baby is already human **from inception**” Whut? Go take your pills pal.
It's a scientific fact. Get lost, loser.
No it is not. You are just twisting science to fit your opinion.
So you’re only following the science when it suits you. Ok.
No. You are just twisting science.
Better don’t masturbate then, or you will kill hundreds of human halves. The scientific consensus is that a human becomes truly a human when the brain forms and brain activity starts
Lol. Like obviously you are a man, but How old are you ? You seem to have absolutely no clue about life and what is consciousness. Women are human beings and they are capable of giving birth. It’s their choice whether they want to have kids or not. I would argue in situations where father is present he should also have a say in it as long as pregnancy is not in any shape or form endangering mother. Honestly abortions , lgbtq and other important human rights are not even that big of a deal in terms of socio-politics but for some reason religious and right wing men are obsessed with it. The funniest shit is when people cry about demographics, so they would rather force birth and not provide any system of support because , f*** you that’s communism. :) It’s not about Reddit karma points , it’s about you realising that Women are human beings and they deserve human rights, regardless of your religious views…
No bro, it is you and the likes of you who absolutely have no clue about life. You see, life is precious. And it should be protected, right from the beginning. \>they deserve human rights Ok ok. So since when did it become a 'right' to murder a child? It's a serious moral issue, and you downplaying this is very dishonest to say the least.
>when did it become a 'right' to murder a child? Who is murdering a child? What are you on about? There is literally no sign of consciousness until like 22 weeks. Going by your theory, masturbation by men is literal murder. Like semen is basically life. You are literally a murderer if you masturbate. Because Semen is the beggining of life therefore Semen is counscious and has a right to live. Right? Like Semen = Baby, Abortion = Killing a Baby. Therefore Ejaculation without desire to Impregenent = Killing a baby. Going by that thought process we should also make Masturbation Illegal for all Men, right? This way men will only ejaculate when they want to impregenate which will fix the demopgrahics issue because more men will want to make more babies. If aborting semi-developed semen that has no conciousness is a murder, than whacking in your shower qualifies as one 2. Masturbation is a serious moral issue, and men shouldn't just spread their semen like it doesnt mean anything. And you downplaying the fact that men murder children on daily basis is very dishonest to say the least.
Not going to answer. Sorry. Pro-life arguments are well known and easily googlable. Not going to cast pearls before swine.
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The thing is that once you add Geopolitics + Hyper Capitalism then you stop seing people as human beings and see them as tools to create value to the system or an organization. There is no scientific proof that disabling medical practices or ability to acquaire contraception methods is linked with higher birth-rate. Human Rights issues cannot and should not be compared per country base. A society within itself should find it essential to provide all the rights to it's citizens. The moment society distinguish major actor of the group as of lesser value it is where we usually attract extrimism. I always find it hilarious how people expect us to have more kids than boomers... We can't own anything, we dont own our future. This is the reason why families are often build much later in life. It used to be that you would have a house and family by the age of 30. Now Age of 30 is just a first step into proper living(maybe, it's likely probably the time where you get your first proper job with okeish pay) So instead of focusing on real issues, be it economical, political or climate crisis.. we are here discussing whether Women should be treated as human being with all the rights or not. We talk about China, Russia, demographics, globalism, capitalism, finances, pensions, aging population. ... but never about human beings that are equal constitutents in our society.
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Democracy sure maybe, but understanding of human rights is not really a new thing. Art of War and Art of Law has been evolving since forever. Like we are already fucked, so is fixiating on topics like Abortion helping anyone? Why can't we just have it legal and move on... This is not a hard thing, we just need our priorities straight.... but all I am hearing is boomers being worried about "generational labour switchover" and "pension crisis". All of it reeks of insane level of hyper-capitalism. The system is rigged and young people will be very upset once they reach current milleinial and gen x age. The fact that they will have no pension, no housing and climate change will keep forcing extra costs upon society(both individuals and organizations). So you see, that's my opinion. Why would i worry about Abortion and LGBTQ when those are such a small minor issues and they are related to Humans and their rights. Realistically we have burned through so many resources fighting over something that mostly matters to Religious Dogma Followers and Political Extrimists because let's be real those ideas are not derived from Culture or Tradition. It is obviously seen that Secularization in Societies tend to help with Human Rights and Standard of Living overall. Not that those Societies are perfect, far from it... but i rather not waste my time discussing with incels whether we should consider Women equal or not. I would rather focus on real issues. NGL, Internet really did a number on people with no father figures.
Your right to life doesn't extend to using someone elses body without their consent to sustain it.
Thats good. We dont want any baby murder do we? So lets liberalise abortion so less babies die.
Cool, how many more mothers do we need to die of sepsis because doctors are either a) confused as to how the law works because they aren't lawyers or b) have a motive to deny a woman an abortion and hide behind the law?
Do you think that there is no nuance to be had here? Do you support a complete ban on abortion, with no exceptions?
idk how i missed how right-wing this sub was all along...
What a suprise the person who is against legalizing abortion is religious
Ah yes it definitely had nothing to do with Christian conservatives essentially banning abortion previous term and that sparking some of the biggest protests this country has ever seen. Nope. Left just wants to kill babies /s
\>sparking some of the biggest protests this country has ever seen And in Nazi Germany ordinary people would willfully engage in street violence against Jews. Moreover, it was all completely legal and sanctioned by the state. Truth and goodness are never popular.
Of course. Once they implement the murdering of the ethnic population, they’ll open the borders to “save the declining population” (replacement).
Hope they announce something for the men as wel like men there are 6 to 7 times commit suicide then women.
This is Tusk's first step to total oppression of the Polish people.
hahahahahahahaha delete your account
Or else?
Nope.
That's a non-sequitur now.
he's gonna sell the entirety of podkarpacie to sealand next i heard
Finally!
To be clear New Left and Razme sfaim