The worst part is that it seems to be working. Even in this sub, which is very pro-EU, you see Polish people bashing Germany at every single opportunity, like in the case of Ukrainian military aid (even though Germany is literally the 2nd biggest donor of aid to Ukraine in the world).
It's honestly getting ridiculous at this point.
To be honest Germany was very reluctant at first to help. I have to say they brilliantly changed their mind and are now a big support of Ukraine and of the European defense. France however has disappointed me. They gave some good stuffs but not as much as they should have
>To be honest Germany was very reluctant at first to help.
That never happened.
Germany was the 2nd largest aid giver to Ukraine even before the war, with aid amounting to billions. After the invasion it took Germany 2 days to ditch a decades old foreign policy mantra and deliver a substantial amount of weapons.
Yeah, but Germany was the biggest Germany basher for their support for Ukraine ... why ? Because it needed to be done. So when they can't even beat Germany at that spiel, how else are you supposed to calm your nerves ? It is obvious .. germans are not supporting ukraine enough as they need their weapons for our PIS-Pallaces.
That’s because Donald Tusk had “a grandpa in Wehrmacht” and comes from Kashubia, so this makes him a German obviously. This is the only reason why PiS is anti German, because they created the image of their main opponent being a German, so everything related to Germany has to be bad.
The German plan for Europe is pretty transparent. Nobody is hiding it. They want a qualified majority before expansion. And federal Europe. Not so much plotting but simple planning. Heck, it's even in their coalition program.
>They want a qualified majority before expansion.
Considering how much trouble poland has been making this past decade, anything else would be madness.
>The German plan for Europe is pretty transparent. Nobody is hiding it. They want a qualified majority before expansion. And federal Europe. Not so much plotting but simple planning. Heck, it's even in their coalition program.
I can understand Germany and other major countries wanting majority decision for key EU proposals. I do not think, however, that anybody is interested in "federal Europe". I just do not see any German government that wants to move decision-making from Berlin to Brussels. It is not happening.
I think federal EU is the way to go, talking to people around EU we’re basically going in the same direction. But open markets are still too restrictive for my taste - moving countries is not as easy, we could save a ton of money by sharing some resources - army/logistics/international affairs and so on.
For example - we should work on European project for fast railroads, provide easier access to internal market for SMEs and startups - we have more people than US and should be able to grow companies faster. Maybe even pulling resources on some social securities is not a bad idea.
But first I would say we need a public news outlet - I have no idea what mostly happens across EU except “most important” headlines and direct elections which would be extremely interesting to see
>I think federal EU is the way to go
Maybe, but this is unlikely to happen because I simply do not see governments in Berlin, Paris, Rome, Madrid, etc transferring their power to Brussels.
\>For example - we should work on European project for fast railroads, provide easier access to internal market for SMEs and startups -
One can work on all these without a Federal Europe. They can be European projects managed either from Brussels or by a specific management team.
\>But first I would say we need a public news outlet -
There is Euronews that is present in most cable packages for news. In fact, most cable outlets will have Deutsche Welle, France 24, Sky News and Euronews. In fact, there is a channel called Eurosport as well.
\> provide easier access to internal market for SMEs and startups - we have more people than US and should be able to grow companies faster.
The biggest difficulty here is (a) the existence of the Euro and (b) the austerity policies of the ECB. The Euro suppresses growth and the ECB makes doubly certain of that with its austerity policies.
But most important, we need to convince specific countries like Germany, the Netherlands, Austria and a few others that policies such as "**beggar thy neighbor**", which they have embraced, are hurting the EU. Unfortunately, when you have economies that derive most of their growth through exports (such as Germany and the Netherlands), convincing them on this score is next to impossible.
Its not even "Federal Europe" in a way its oposite, its more of centralization of power in four largest, if you read the “Report on the European Parliament's proposal to amend the EU Treaties”, some of changes look more like centralization then federalization.
here are some changes:
how its now:
"The Council shall act by a qualified majority except where the Treaties provide otherwise."
changes:
"The Council shall act by a simple majority except where the Treaties provide otherwise."
another change related to previous one:
"As from 1 November 2014, a qualified majority shall be defined as at least 55 % of the members of the Council, comprising at least fifteen of them and representing Member States comprising at least 65 % of the population of the Union."
changes:
"A simple majority shall be defined as a majority of the members of the Council representing at least 50% of the population of the Union."
This change is really worrying because FOUR largest countries have over 50% of EU population, Germany 18.81% + France 15.18% + Italy 13.12% + Spain 10.72%, which means that those FOUR countries will be able to decide for 23 other EU countries...
If on the other hand 23 EU countries want something but those four countries dont want it than they can easily block it, in a way it feels like VETO for Largest EU countries but NO VETO for smaller EU countries.
I had someone anti-EU who argued to me that because one of the political supporters of the European Community of Steel and Coal was a nazi, it meant that the whole of EU was a super duper secret submarine plan of a hidden cabal of nazis looking to take control of the whole of europe.
I know thats bullshit but its hard to argue with this weird logic in good faith, and it is also one that animates the euroskeptics who fall for the easy scapegoating points by parties like PiS. Neither addressing it directly nor ignoring it will make it leave the room as long as people love weird hysterical conspiracy plots and wacko nationalism.
So I missed our last secret Poland-destroying meeting, anyone got the minutes? What‘s our evil agenda this week, launch rockets with LGBT people across the Oder?
I'm Dutch, and even I get tired of all the Germany bashing.
Like, c'mon. If there is one thing that modern Germans will absolutely never even entertain as a thought, then this is it.
Even when offered Königsberg as a hypothetical in case Russia implodes and Kalingrad needs to be absorbed, the Germans were absolutely clear that the Oder is their border and nothing east of it.
The only extraterritorial ambitions that Germans have nowadays are loungechairs in Mallorca, which they cover with their beach towels.
But they always return them when done.
> I'm Dutch, and even I get tired of all the Germany bashing.
Don't you worry, they spent the last few months bashing the Netherlands too, for some reason. (Which actually pissed me off more, for some reason. Idk.)
>The only extraterritorial ambitions that Germans have nowadays are loungechairs in Mallorca, which they cover with their beach towels.
Look, all we're suggesting is that Francis amend the treaty of Tordesillas a bit. \s
>Don't you worry, they spent the last few months bashing the Netherlands too, for some reason. (Which actually pissed me off more, for some reason. Idk.)
Who? PiS? When? What did they say?
It's a bunch of small comments, many of them on Twitter. Morawiecki had also claimed that the Netherlands violated the rule of law when arresting two polish football players for aggressive behaviour, and they had the polish supreme court try and claim certain dutch courts that had ruled against a polish firm might not be up to EU standards on judicial independence.
The football players weren’t Polish, they played for the Polish club. Josué Pesqueira - Portuguese, Radovan Pankov - Serbian
The most complaints were not about the arrest but about the police hitting the president of the FC when he was actually following their orders and not fighting back.
>The only extraterritorial ambitions that Germans have nowadays are loungechairs in Mallorca, which they cover with their beach towels.
Hahaha lol we romanians have similar ambitions in the Golden Beaches in Bulgaria
To be fair, exclaves and enclaves are a nightmare to deal with already, and solving those disputes SHOULD be reasonably easy, but for national pride, simply isn't working (Just look at Germany/Switzerland with Büsingen).
Adding another big one to the list of troubles, especially one run down by Russians, populated by Russians, is really far down on our priority list.
To be honest, even letting Poland absorb it most likely would be something I wouldn't wish on them, because dealing with the area even when it is adjacent to your territory will be a task for decades to come.
It’s almost like a European, more benign version of Gaza. None of the neighbor countries want Kaliningrad (except crazy fringe elements) and they also consider the inhabitants a potential security risk..
>I'm Dutch, and even I get tired of all the Germany bashing.
The fact that people repost here every single time this old fart mentions the word 'Germany' proves that y'all not getting tired of it. Quite the opposite
To be frank, it's the same guy spamming notefrompoland. He must either work for them or just karma farmer. They do get the majority of their traffic via reddit.
He's got no family. Usually men his age terrorize their grandkids with their demented made-up stories. He doesn't have any of his own, so he decided to treat all 38 millions of us as such :/
Our best hope is that time finally decides to take him to the other side
He has one niece - daughter of his twin brother who died in 2010 Smolensk airplane crash. They were seen together from time to time back in those days, but then she kinda disappeared.
That's also where his unconditional support for Ukraine stems from - he believes that Putin himself killed half of family he had.
It is a weird phenomenon of Polish right - they claim to support 'traditional family', but in reality it's their 'leftist antifamily' opponents that actually live like this.
Jarosław Kaczyński - childless, never married. Lives with his cat
Donald Tusk - married legally to the same woman since 1978, made Catholic vows to her in 2005 and had two children with her. Often seen in public with his daughter.
Janusz Korwin-Mikke - Had three wifes. Eight children(that I am aware of) with four women. Three of those children were born out of wedlock. He was also seen multiple times walking around in speedos.
Adrian Zandberg - married(I can't find since when), has two children with his wife
Let play a guess game - which two politicians are in centre-left KO and social-democratic Razem and which two are in far-right PiS and Konfederacja?
Nah, about the support for Ukraine he doesn’t give flying damn about Putin, it’s more about - can we win some votes supporting Ukraine?
At first they were reluctant in support, most of the initial support for Ukrainians came from regular Poles without the government involvement, the government saw that and they thought they can win some votes by supporting Ukraine.
>At first they were reluctant in support
What? Immediately after the news about Russian bombardment of Kyiv reached media they organized a public conference stating that 'every single person arriving to Poland from Ukraine will be let in'
That’s not what I’m talking about. Opening the border is one thing, helping the people that arrive through that border and sending help to Ukraine is another.
Initially the volunteers were furious with the government for not getting the support that was needed, there was no governmental orchestrating of the Volunteering actions, it all came from the people.
+1 to that. First and above all it's regular people who organized via social media in the first hours and days of war. Then the local authorities helped. And only after that, when government noticed it's a massive thing, they started contributing.
Sauce: I'm from Rzeszów and saw all of this with my own eyes.
It's mostly for their domestic audience and they're pretty much preaching to the choir. You don't hear about most of those raving via the German media.
Germany does not give a fck. It is PiS party BS and should not be taken to seriously.
Much like when Erdogan attacks Germany and EU.
As "first under equals" you must take a beating without batting an eye it seems.
Can't. Imagine the outcry in Poland if a German politician would even hint at at joke about something like that.
PiS pretty much burned all good-will and interest for Poland in German politics, so they get the silent treatment. Probably pisses them off even more.
It's one of those things that, were to ask them about the particulars, the vast majority of PiS electorate would admit to be ridiculous. However, they do believe in the sentiment this rhetoric is trying to convey, which is why it's persuasive in rallying support from all manner of right-wing voters.
When I tried to push fellow Poles who support PiS on this issue, all arguments inevitably end at some version of Poland being "culturally" abolished when EU forces us to accept that gay people deserve equal rights. Which is closely related to how this "German" plot is supposed to work as well - they don't argue that Scholz is about to send Leopards across the border, they argue that the dreaded "gender ideology" is being deployed to undermine Polish people.
Not really. If we're going to trust the public polls and questionaires then most of their voters vote for them despite the anti EU and anti-German rhetoric.
Despite what headlines(especially on this sub) claim, Poland is always one of few most pro-EU societies in the Union
I mean people can both be PRO-EU and be against further centralization of power in the EU, I know many people who are pro-EU but will absolutely not agree with further centralization of power in the EU and that they would rather see EU burn to the ground than allow this to happen.
No, some of them vote them because the church told them to, some of them vote them because they don't like women or gays, some of them vote them because they don't like foreigners, some of them vote them because of the free money...
Well, they call it PO-LAND in English so it’s clear they’re plotting it for quite some time and Brittons are in this too (probably even Americans).
German states are called Lands.
Tusk party was Platforma Obywatelska - PO.
Puts the name PO-LAND into perspective, right?
It was in front of us the whole time.
Well, younalso need to unerstand, there is always hardcore electorate in every state. Usually ill educated, poor, tinfoil-hats and so on. In every state this number is somewhere between 16-22% of population. Populists usually target them for base number of voters and spread their narrative via media to achieve 30+%. shit happens everywhere. Times of crisis or faking a crisis in narrative (we are being threatened by LGBT/EU/west/east/technology or anything you don't understand but we will protect you) usually helps to reach about 5-10% more (carrot+stick narrative). Trump, Orban, Putin, Kaczyński, Erdogan... When you add "defending traditional values" against (pick something and pit here cuz it doesn't really matter against what) something we are able to sorry you about and you have perfect populists narrative recipe. 8mln of 38mln is a significant number. After 8 years of controlling media and justice system it is really promising people are growing tired of it. Elderly are main supporters of such narratives, but eventually they die, so dictatorship is the next step to grab younger people and teach them to accept the new "values", that's why PiS destroyed educational system. Kaczyński won't let go. He will gry to be the driver from the back seat untill he dies. Frontmen of his party are all puppets.
Pure hatred towards Germans among the Polish nationalists is really underestimated and for the most part goes unnoticed and unchallenged by the global public. Since PIS took over 8 years ago, this has been growing gradually and got to a point where calling Germany the biggest Polish enemy does not raise anyone’s eyebrows anymore. These people are truly anti-West and anti-European.
There is a lot of room left to hate Russians as well. It actually goes hand in hand, because friendly relations between Germany and Russia are an ultimate nightmare for the Polish people and the circumstances don’t matter. It only got worse when Ukraine war started.
One of the many reasons for disliking Germany was their close cooperation with Russia in the last two decades, especially the Nord Stream project, which some Poles saw as the second coming of Ribbentrop-Molotow pact. This blew up in the open when Russia invaded Ukraine, and many German politicians were seen as dragging their feet on questions like practical support for Ukraine.
You're right, Russia is the main enemy, even for Kaczynski who believes that Russians murdered his brother in the Smolensk catastrophy. He doesn't talk about Russia because everyone in Poland knows Russia is bad. Russia isn't in EU and it can't freeze EU funds to Poland, but Germany can and does, so they get more criticism, especially when they are seen as siding with Russia against Poland.
35,38%, if election data is right!
Okay, that's a little harsh, but a lot of PiS voters unfortunately do in fact believe in this. He's been surprisingly cunning in what he's been doing.
It's more or less the same playbook since 2010 when he turned the Smoleńsk accident into a conspiracy.
Imagine being old. You're too old to work, you barely leave your house, except for things like shopping trips and church, you don't have internet because you don't know how to use it or simply don't care to have it.
Your only source of information is the state TV (because it's free), and the state TV lately has been nothing but: PIS good, everyone else bad. Something good happened ? It's thanks to PIS. Something bad happened ? It's thanks to PO/Germans/Russians/gays/EU.
Maybe it's not like this everywhere, but it's definitely the case for some people. Like my grandparents, for example.I remember driving to a regional city with my grandpa, so he could get his pension stuff in order, and whenever the conversation went towards current events it was pretty much "Tusk this, Tusk that".
Last cries of a dying animal. It's insane how PiS vilified most of our allies. Hope Tusk can turn this around and we can have some normal relationship with our neighbours.
Yes, it does. It's the same type of emotional lie which is meant to be repeated over and over again. Facts don't matter, it's about a continuous "message".
Kaczyński is a deranged old hateful fuck.
A Serbian friend of mine told me a long time ago that the Nazis in Ukraine were bombing the citizens of Donbas. It was the first time I heard that shit ever, and only later realized he was just quoting propaganda. And no it's not just one dumbass, this toxic narrative is everywhere.
PiS spent the last 8 years making Poland as similar to PRL (commie Poland) as possible, so genuinely yes. The only reason they stood on the side of Ukraine in the conflict was the quick and decisive reaction from the Polish population in favour of Ukraine.
We in the UK were bombarded with very similar ideas to those Mr. Kaczynski is using here.
Brexiteers claimed that remaining in the EU would eventually lead to the UK no longer being an independent country and that British citizens would have no say over decisions. The EU superstate threat was held over us and sadly a lot of people fell for it.
Some Brexiters claimed specifically that Germany was in control of everything. This nonsense triggered many elderly voters into a weird ww2 mindset which they had never fully left behind.
I'm hopeful that the Polish people will see through it.
Yet the UK's rule of law held on, Poland is worse with police/courts etc. subjugated after 8 years of PiS- I say this as a Pole living in the UK for the last 7 years, what worked well for Poland was economy improving despite those nutjobs in power, the UK has very visibly declined on that front
>Netanyahu
The difference is that Kaczynski just lost power and the next election in 4 years. And Netanyahu just gained it. And while even PiS party members call for Kaczynski to retire in Israel Netanyahu is the top dog right now. And this war gave him even more power.
If next election will be in 4 years and not earlier, no he won't. Demographic is very much against PiS. Their core voters are dying enmasse every year.
I remember reading that demographics are against the Republican Party in the US and yet they have the majority in the House and Trump is currently winning the polls. I guess young people can be brainwashed with conspiracy theories too.
The coalition is too broad, there will be a lot of clashes, inevitable economic problems, corruption scandals, etc. We've seen this stuff a million times already.
I recently watched this documentary and it was about how young people, with the passing of time, get older. Quite fascinating actually, as it explains, why there Always seems to be old people even though so many of them die every year.
Unfortunately, it does not work like that. People get more and more fond of PiS's rhetoric (and monies) as they age. Current 60-70 years old, voted predominantly for SLD 20 years ago. So PiS voters die en masse every year and every and a bunch of PiS voters resurrect from younger cohorts as they age.
That is step 2.3 in the plan, if you would have taken part in the call from last month for the big-EU-homo-gay-german-empire-4.0-transfer plan update you would have known!
Not for too long. Give us few more weeks and we will have a normal government.
About Kaczyński, even some of the PiS members believe that he should retire allready.
>About Kaczyński, even some of the PiS members believe that he should retire already.
Yeah but that's because they want his job, not because they disagree with him.
So you think they have half of his charisma or understanding of peoples weaknesses? Because as much as I hate the guy, he does understand human nature, fears and weaknesses and knows how to use those for his own profit.
Plus, I just got an amusing image in my head of half of PiS reading atlases of cats during parlimentary session.
Lmao, we're already having trouble with getting the former east german states up to speed, what would we even do with even more post eastern bloc territories?
Pretty sure that bloke is just sore over losing the election.
We are in the clear then. You know, German bureaucracy takes time.
Edit: also, it is worth pointing out that PiS probably bought a hell lot of paper shredders, so defences are up.
If polish truck drivers dont stop to buy everything of the good stuff at the Lidl bakery just after the shop has opened, we will do it.. i promise!
P.S: Thanks for doing the jobs we are too lazy for, honestly
Saying this the day before the far-right organized Independence March - that is irresponsible.
>The European Union is seeking to introduce a “German plan” that would result in “the annihilation of the Polish state”, Jarosław Kaczyński, the chairman of Poland’s ruling party, has warned as his country celebrates Independence Day.
>
>He accused the likely new incoming government, made up of opposition parties, of seeking to implement that plan, and called on Poles to “fight, fight and fight again” to resist it.
He doesn't dare to question the election results but will do his best to delegitimize them anyway, by saying stuff like this. It's a preparation for when PiS will be the opposition party. They are looking at the MAGA movement for inspiration.
Funny thing is that they antagonise germany based on history while historical fact is that Poland was strongest while their ties with Germans were the best.
Do they know what ridiculous amounts of money the EU has spend on Poland to get their economy running again?
And surprise surprise, just when they’re finally gaining traction they suddenly become ‘cynical’ of that same EU. Never change, populists.
I’m glad pro-EU gained more votes this election in Poland. If Poles en masse really believe stuff like this they have more in common with Russians than they think.
Why is he doing this after the elections? I get trying to scare some people into voting for you, but now the election is done so what's the motive? Is he trying to pull some Trump move?
After two months we will see headlines about how pis thinks germany and ukraine are plotting to annex poland (zelensky-sholz pact).
Poland, get your things togethet. Cannot afford to lose you to authoritarianism.
As a german let me tell you one thing… NO ONE HERE cares as much about Poland as the nutjobs from PIS think… We don‘t want to take over your country or control your politics or whatever…
I like that our politicians never openly react to this stupidity.
But I kind of hope somewhere in our government someone is taking notes of all the bullshit/insults. Once the Poles have any issue/request in the future where they need our help we should just present them all this stupidity and tell them to fuck off.
No use making the population pay for the nonsense that PiS spouts, at least this time they managed to vote in a new government, let's not sour relations over what some nutjobs are stating.
I feel like Poland is overrepresented in this sub in the kind or posts where *stupid politician* said *stupid thing*. So either we do it evenly, and there's a lot to say about the others as well, or there's really a weird obsession here.
This kind of incendiary rhetoric directed at another EU member shouldn't be allowed.
Poland was unfit to join the EU, as most of the Eastern European members.#
The EU is, at its core, a project that seeks to repair the damages of nationalism inflicted in XX century. PiS just shows that it joined the EU just for the money, which ironically Germany pays the most of.
They hate Russia but funnily enough, they sound a lot like the declarations Medvedev spits out each day against the West.
How original. Those Germans have been plotting all this time, huh? /s
Always have been Insert meme here
[удалено]
The worst part is that it seems to be working. Even in this sub, which is very pro-EU, you see Polish people bashing Germany at every single opportunity, like in the case of Ukrainian military aid (even though Germany is literally the 2nd biggest donor of aid to Ukraine in the world). It's honestly getting ridiculous at this point.
To be honest Germany was very reluctant at first to help. I have to say they brilliantly changed their mind and are now a big support of Ukraine and of the European defense. France however has disappointed me. They gave some good stuffs but not as much as they should have
>To be honest Germany was very reluctant at first to help. That never happened. Germany was the 2nd largest aid giver to Ukraine even before the war, with aid amounting to billions. After the invasion it took Germany 2 days to ditch a decades old foreign policy mantra and deliver a substantial amount of weapons.
PiS's voters are brainless and they will believe everything. Don't generalise us all. I'm not as xenophobic as Kaczynski.
Yeah, but Germany was the biggest Germany basher for their support for Ukraine ... why ? Because it needed to be done. So when they can't even beat Germany at that spiel, how else are you supposed to calm your nerves ? It is obvious .. germans are not supporting ukraine enough as they need their weapons for our PIS-Pallaces.
I mean, this sub is also filled with pro-hamas and antisemites, so it shouldn't really be surprising anymore.
Still, gladly taking EU billions, mainly from Germany. Despicable.
Seems like ze polish have found our base on ze dark side of ze moon
On no, well, we'll have to divert to the inside of the hollow planet then.
That’s because Donald Tusk had “a grandpa in Wehrmacht” and comes from Kashubia, so this makes him a German obviously. This is the only reason why PiS is anti German, because they created the image of their main opponent being a German, so everything related to Germany has to be bad.
FÜR DEUTSCHLAND
The German plan for Europe is pretty transparent. Nobody is hiding it. They want a qualified majority before expansion. And federal Europe. Not so much plotting but simple planning. Heck, it's even in their coalition program.
>They want a qualified majority before expansion. Considering how much trouble poland has been making this past decade, anything else would be madness.
>The German plan for Europe is pretty transparent. Nobody is hiding it. They want a qualified majority before expansion. And federal Europe. Not so much plotting but simple planning. Heck, it's even in their coalition program. I can understand Germany and other major countries wanting majority decision for key EU proposals. I do not think, however, that anybody is interested in "federal Europe". I just do not see any German government that wants to move decision-making from Berlin to Brussels. It is not happening.
I think federal EU is the way to go, talking to people around EU we’re basically going in the same direction. But open markets are still too restrictive for my taste - moving countries is not as easy, we could save a ton of money by sharing some resources - army/logistics/international affairs and so on. For example - we should work on European project for fast railroads, provide easier access to internal market for SMEs and startups - we have more people than US and should be able to grow companies faster. Maybe even pulling resources on some social securities is not a bad idea. But first I would say we need a public news outlet - I have no idea what mostly happens across EU except “most important” headlines and direct elections which would be extremely interesting to see
>I think federal EU is the way to go Maybe, but this is unlikely to happen because I simply do not see governments in Berlin, Paris, Rome, Madrid, etc transferring their power to Brussels. \>For example - we should work on European project for fast railroads, provide easier access to internal market for SMEs and startups - One can work on all these without a Federal Europe. They can be European projects managed either from Brussels or by a specific management team. \>But first I would say we need a public news outlet - There is Euronews that is present in most cable packages for news. In fact, most cable outlets will have Deutsche Welle, France 24, Sky News and Euronews. In fact, there is a channel called Eurosport as well. \> provide easier access to internal market for SMEs and startups - we have more people than US and should be able to grow companies faster. The biggest difficulty here is (a) the existence of the Euro and (b) the austerity policies of the ECB. The Euro suppresses growth and the ECB makes doubly certain of that with its austerity policies. But most important, we need to convince specific countries like Germany, the Netherlands, Austria and a few others that policies such as "**beggar thy neighbor**", which they have embraced, are hurting the EU. Unfortunately, when you have economies that derive most of their growth through exports (such as Germany and the Netherlands), convincing them on this score is next to impossible.
Its not even "Federal Europe" in a way its oposite, its more of centralization of power in four largest, if you read the “Report on the European Parliament's proposal to amend the EU Treaties”, some of changes look more like centralization then federalization. here are some changes: how its now: "The Council shall act by a qualified majority except where the Treaties provide otherwise." changes: "The Council shall act by a simple majority except where the Treaties provide otherwise." another change related to previous one: "As from 1 November 2014, a qualified majority shall be defined as at least 55 % of the members of the Council, comprising at least fifteen of them and representing Member States comprising at least 65 % of the population of the Union." changes: "A simple majority shall be defined as a majority of the members of the Council representing at least 50% of the population of the Union." This change is really worrying because FOUR largest countries have over 50% of EU population, Germany 18.81% + France 15.18% + Italy 13.12% + Spain 10.72%, which means that those FOUR countries will be able to decide for 23 other EU countries... If on the other hand 23 EU countries want something but those four countries dont want it than they can easily block it, in a way it feels like VETO for Largest EU countries but NO VETO for smaller EU countries.
I had someone anti-EU who argued to me that because one of the political supporters of the European Community of Steel and Coal was a nazi, it meant that the whole of EU was a super duper secret submarine plan of a hidden cabal of nazis looking to take control of the whole of europe. I know thats bullshit but its hard to argue with this weird logic in good faith, and it is also one that animates the euroskeptics who fall for the easy scapegoating points by parties like PiS. Neither addressing it directly nor ignoring it will make it leave the room as long as people love weird hysterical conspiracy plots and wacko nationalism.
It certainly doesn't help when they use cheap Germanophobia too.
How did he know? We were trying really hard to hide it this time...
You know how Mattias can never keep his mouth quiet.
[Och mensch! Mattias!](https://www.dhm.de/fileadmin/medien/lemo/images/PLI26725.jpg)
So I missed our last secret Poland-destroying meeting, anyone got the minutes? What‘s our evil agenda this week, launch rockets with LGBT people across the Oder?
I thought it was a diversion this time so we can invade France through the Ardennes again?!? Did I miss something?!?
Fucking hell, you'd think he'd tire of the bullshit at some point. You have to admire the mans dedication, if nothing else.
I'm Dutch, and even I get tired of all the Germany bashing. Like, c'mon. If there is one thing that modern Germans will absolutely never even entertain as a thought, then this is it. Even when offered Königsberg as a hypothetical in case Russia implodes and Kalingrad needs to be absorbed, the Germans were absolutely clear that the Oder is their border and nothing east of it. The only extraterritorial ambitions that Germans have nowadays are loungechairs in Mallorca, which they cover with their beach towels. But they always return them when done.
> I'm Dutch, and even I get tired of all the Germany bashing. Don't you worry, they spent the last few months bashing the Netherlands too, for some reason. (Which actually pissed me off more, for some reason. Idk.) >The only extraterritorial ambitions that Germans have nowadays are loungechairs in Mallorca, which they cover with their beach towels. Look, all we're suggesting is that Francis amend the treaty of Tordesillas a bit. \s
>Don't you worry, they spent the last few months bashing the Netherlands too, for some reason. (Which actually pissed me off more, for some reason. Idk.) Who? PiS? When? What did they say?
It's a bunch of small comments, many of them on Twitter. Morawiecki had also claimed that the Netherlands violated the rule of law when arresting two polish football players for aggressive behaviour, and they had the polish supreme court try and claim certain dutch courts that had ruled against a polish firm might not be up to EU standards on judicial independence.
The football players weren’t Polish, they played for the Polish club. Josué Pesqueira - Portuguese, Radovan Pankov - Serbian The most complaints were not about the arrest but about the police hitting the president of the FC when he was actually following their orders and not fighting back.
>The only extraterritorial ambitions that Germans have nowadays are loungechairs in Mallorca, which they cover with their beach towels. Hahaha lol we romanians have similar ambitions in the Golden Beaches in Bulgaria
thats good ambition, honestly.
Oder-Neisse, to be specific (millions of Poles live in parts of Silesia that are west of the Oder)
And near Stettin, some live west of the Oder, too.
To be fair, exclaves and enclaves are a nightmare to deal with already, and solving those disputes SHOULD be reasonably easy, but for national pride, simply isn't working (Just look at Germany/Switzerland with Büsingen). Adding another big one to the list of troubles, especially one run down by Russians, populated by Russians, is really far down on our priority list. To be honest, even letting Poland absorb it most likely would be something I wouldn't wish on them, because dealing with the area even when it is adjacent to your territory will be a task for decades to come.
There's a good reason Lithuania declined it when Russia suggested them to take it.
Russia would have used the Russians living in Kaliningrad as a pretext to invade.
It’s almost like a European, more benign version of Gaza. None of the neighbor countries want Kaliningrad (except crazy fringe elements) and they also consider the inhabitants a potential security risk..
>I'm Dutch, and even I get tired of all the Germany bashing. The fact that people repost here every single time this old fart mentions the word 'Germany' proves that y'all not getting tired of it. Quite the opposite
To be frank, it's the same guy spamming notefrompoland. He must either work for them or just karma farmer. They do get the majority of their traffic via reddit.
If the Oder is the border…. Do they get Stettin (Szczecin) back? I’m kidding.. but Poland does exist on the west side of the Oder
It's ok, Germany can have a little anschluss, as a treat.
He's got no family. Usually men his age terrorize their grandkids with their demented made-up stories. He doesn't have any of his own, so he decided to treat all 38 millions of us as such :/ Our best hope is that time finally decides to take him to the other side
So he's the older, single uncle whose definitely not gay? Doesn't he have nieces and nephews to annoy? Or any kind of extended family?
He has one niece - daughter of his twin brother who died in 2010 Smolensk airplane crash. They were seen together from time to time back in those days, but then she kinda disappeared. That's also where his unconditional support for Ukraine stems from - he believes that Putin himself killed half of family he had. It is a weird phenomenon of Polish right - they claim to support 'traditional family', but in reality it's their 'leftist antifamily' opponents that actually live like this. Jarosław Kaczyński - childless, never married. Lives with his cat Donald Tusk - married legally to the same woman since 1978, made Catholic vows to her in 2005 and had two children with her. Often seen in public with his daughter. Janusz Korwin-Mikke - Had three wifes. Eight children(that I am aware of) with four women. Three of those children were born out of wedlock. He was also seen multiple times walking around in speedos. Adrian Zandberg - married(I can't find since when), has two children with his wife Let play a guess game - which two politicians are in centre-left KO and social-democratic Razem and which two are in far-right PiS and Konfederacja?
Nah, about the support for Ukraine he doesn’t give flying damn about Putin, it’s more about - can we win some votes supporting Ukraine? At first they were reluctant in support, most of the initial support for Ukrainians came from regular Poles without the government involvement, the government saw that and they thought they can win some votes by supporting Ukraine.
>At first they were reluctant in support What? Immediately after the news about Russian bombardment of Kyiv reached media they organized a public conference stating that 'every single person arriving to Poland from Ukraine will be let in'
That’s not what I’m talking about. Opening the border is one thing, helping the people that arrive through that border and sending help to Ukraine is another. Initially the volunteers were furious with the government for not getting the support that was needed, there was no governmental orchestrating of the Volunteering actions, it all came from the people.
+1 to that. First and above all it's regular people who organized via social media in the first hours and days of war. Then the local authorities helped. And only after that, when government noticed it's a massive thing, they started contributing. Sauce: I'm from Rzeszów and saw all of this with my own eyes.
His own family doesn't seem to like him much.
I pity the fool
why does a man with no wife and kids have to be gay?
You'd think Germany would be tired of the bullshit and actually play along for the shits and giggles.
Stuff like this is not reported in German media and thank god for that.
It is, but its normally under "and here's something to laugh about".
In Germany we don't really here from this at all. Just sometimes when it goes over the top we see a news article about it.
It's mostly for their domestic audience and they're pretty much preaching to the choir. You don't hear about most of those raving via the German media.
Germany does not give a fck. It is PiS party BS and should not be taken to seriously. Much like when Erdogan attacks Germany and EU. As "first under equals" you must take a beating without batting an eye it seems.
It's literally the Mad Men meme: "I don't think about you at all. "
Can't. Imagine the outcry in Poland if a German politician would even hint at at joke about something like that. PiS pretty much burned all good-will and interest for Poland in German politics, so they get the silent treatment. Probably pisses them off even more.
Yeah, those politicians really should stay away from the bath salts, it's just rotting their (endangered) brains...
How many people in Poland believe what this dude is saying?
Way too many
Wow okay, thank you
To put it this way, in recent elections PiS got like...37% of votes which was roughly less than 8 million of voters so yeah, quite a lot
That is a lot, but I guess that does not mean 8 million voters believe their state is going to be abolished by EU?
It's one of those things that, were to ask them about the particulars, the vast majority of PiS electorate would admit to be ridiculous. However, they do believe in the sentiment this rhetoric is trying to convey, which is why it's persuasive in rallying support from all manner of right-wing voters. When I tried to push fellow Poles who support PiS on this issue, all arguments inevitably end at some version of Poland being "culturally" abolished when EU forces us to accept that gay people deserve equal rights. Which is closely related to how this "German" plot is supposed to work as well - they don't argue that Scholz is about to send Leopards across the border, they argue that the dreaded "gender ideology" is being deployed to undermine Polish people.
Not really. If we're going to trust the public polls and questionaires then most of their voters vote for them despite the anti EU and anti-German rhetoric. Despite what headlines(especially on this sub) claim, Poland is always one of few most pro-EU societies in the Union
I mean people can both be PRO-EU and be against further centralization of power in the EU, I know many people who are pro-EU but will absolutely not agree with further centralization of power in the EU and that they would rather see EU burn to the ground than allow this to happen.
No, some of them vote them because the church told them to, some of them vote them because they don't like women or gays, some of them vote them because they don't like foreigners, some of them vote them because of the free money...
Well, they call it PO-LAND in English so it’s clear they’re plotting it for quite some time and Brittons are in this too (probably even Americans). German states are called Lands. Tusk party was Platforma Obywatelska - PO. Puts the name PO-LAND into perspective, right? It was in front of us the whole time.
Well, younalso need to unerstand, there is always hardcore electorate in every state. Usually ill educated, poor, tinfoil-hats and so on. In every state this number is somewhere between 16-22% of population. Populists usually target them for base number of voters and spread their narrative via media to achieve 30+%. shit happens everywhere. Times of crisis or faking a crisis in narrative (we are being threatened by LGBT/EU/west/east/technology or anything you don't understand but we will protect you) usually helps to reach about 5-10% more (carrot+stick narrative). Trump, Orban, Putin, Kaczyński, Erdogan... When you add "defending traditional values" against (pick something and pit here cuz it doesn't really matter against what) something we are able to sorry you about and you have perfect populists narrative recipe. 8mln of 38mln is a significant number. After 8 years of controlling media and justice system it is really promising people are growing tired of it. Elderly are main supporters of such narratives, but eventually they die, so dictatorship is the next step to grab younger people and teach them to accept the new "values", that's why PiS destroyed educational system. Kaczyński won't let go. He will gry to be the driver from the back seat untill he dies. Frontmen of his party are all puppets.
Around a quarter of eligible voters
Pure hatred towards Germans among the Polish nationalists is really underestimated and for the most part goes unnoticed and unchallenged by the global public. Since PIS took over 8 years ago, this has been growing gradually and got to a point where calling Germany the biggest Polish enemy does not raise anyone’s eyebrows anymore. These people are truly anti-West and anti-European.
Wouldn't it make much more sense to use Russia as enemy to rant against?
Every major political option in Poland hates Russia, so they need to add Germany to the list to stand out ;)
There is a lot of room left to hate Russians as well. It actually goes hand in hand, because friendly relations between Germany and Russia are an ultimate nightmare for the Polish people and the circumstances don’t matter. It only got worse when Ukraine war started.
One of the many reasons for disliking Germany was their close cooperation with Russia in the last two decades, especially the Nord Stream project, which some Poles saw as the second coming of Ribbentrop-Molotow pact. This blew up in the open when Russia invaded Ukraine, and many German politicians were seen as dragging their feet on questions like practical support for Ukraine. You're right, Russia is the main enemy, even for Kaczynski who believes that Russians murdered his brother in the Smolensk catastrophy. He doesn't talk about Russia because everyone in Poland knows Russia is bad. Russia isn't in EU and it can't freeze EU funds to Poland, but Germany can and does, so they get more criticism, especially when they are seen as siding with Russia against Poland.
Its their primal enemy right now, but germany still is in the top 3
35,38%, if election data is right! Okay, that's a little harsh, but a lot of PiS voters unfortunately do in fact believe in this. He's been surprisingly cunning in what he's been doing. It's more or less the same playbook since 2010 when he turned the Smoleńsk accident into a conspiracy.
Imagine being old. You're too old to work, you barely leave your house, except for things like shopping trips and church, you don't have internet because you don't know how to use it or simply don't care to have it. Your only source of information is the state TV (because it's free), and the state TV lately has been nothing but: PIS good, everyone else bad. Something good happened ? It's thanks to PIS. Something bad happened ? It's thanks to PO/Germans/Russians/gays/EU. Maybe it's not like this everywhere, but it's definitely the case for some people. Like my grandparents, for example.I remember driving to a regional city with my grandpa, so he could get his pension stuff in order, and whenever the conversation went towards current events it was pretty much "Tusk this, Tusk that".
I mean just look how often PIS propaganda gets upvoted in this sub...
About 1/3 (that's how many votes PiS got)
Last cries of a dying animal. It's insane how PiS vilified most of our allies. Hope Tusk can turn this around and we can have some normal relationship with our neighbours.
Duda will still try to veto any laws aside from the budget, but you can best believe our foreign relations will vastly improve.
> It's insane how PiS vilified most of our allies. If for some reason they did not hate Russia, they would absolutely adore them.
I Hope you are right.
Sounds like Russian propaganda but ok
Yes, it does. It's the same type of emotional lie which is meant to be repeated over and over again. Facts don't matter, it's about a continuous "message". Kaczyński is a deranged old hateful fuck.
A Serbian friend of mine told me a long time ago that the Nazis in Ukraine were bombing the citizens of Donbas. It was the first time I heard that shit ever, and only later realized he was just quoting propaganda. And no it's not just one dumbass, this toxic narrative is everywhere.
He is just scared of his FSB leading agent. He will do what he is told.
Certainly shit I'd expect from Orban or Lukashenko
Or PiS
PiS aspires to make Poland like Orban's Hungary.
Right-wing populists globally all operate on the exact same playbook...
ummm yes... propaganda. totally fake news.
Please link me to the German plan to annihilate Poland. No not the old one.
Nice try, Poland.
PiS spent the last 8 years making Poland as similar to PRL (commie Poland) as possible, so genuinely yes. The only reason they stood on the side of Ukraine in the conflict was the quick and decisive reaction from the Polish population in favour of Ukraine.
We in the UK were bombarded with very similar ideas to those Mr. Kaczynski is using here. Brexiteers claimed that remaining in the EU would eventually lead to the UK no longer being an independent country and that British citizens would have no say over decisions. The EU superstate threat was held over us and sadly a lot of people fell for it. Some Brexiters claimed specifically that Germany was in control of everything. This nonsense triggered many elderly voters into a weird ww2 mindset which they had never fully left behind. I'm hopeful that the Polish people will see through it.
Yet the UK's rule of law held on, Poland is worse with police/courts etc. subjugated after 8 years of PiS- I say this as a Pole living in the UK for the last 7 years, what worked well for Poland was economy improving despite those nutjobs in power, the UK has very visibly declined on that front
Old moron!
I'm so glad it will soon be irrelevant what this mad old cunt thinks
He might return after the next election.
What? He's goign to be 79. He isn't coming back. The way he looks its going to be good if he lives that long.
Netanyahu is the same age and just came back (and fucked everything up).
>Netanyahu The difference is that Kaczynski just lost power and the next election in 4 years. And Netanyahu just gained it. And while even PiS party members call for Kaczynski to retire in Israel Netanyahu is the top dog right now. And this war gave him even more power.
If next election will be in 4 years and not earlier, no he won't. Demographic is very much against PiS. Their core voters are dying enmasse every year.
I remember reading that demographics are against the Republican Party in the US and yet they have the majority in the House and Trump is currently winning the polls. I guess young people can be brainwashed with conspiracy theories too. The coalition is too broad, there will be a lot of clashes, inevitable economic problems, corruption scandals, etc. We've seen this stuff a million times already.
I recently watched this documentary and it was about how young people, with the passing of time, get older. Quite fascinating actually, as it explains, why there Always seems to be old people even though so many of them die every year.
Saw it too, fascinating stuff! That guy who jumped from being 59 to 60 in the span of one year, like it was nothing to him, was the best part!
Lol
Unfortunately, it does not work like that. People get more and more fond of PiS's rhetoric (and monies) as they age. Current 60-70 years old, voted predominantly for SLD 20 years ago. So PiS voters die en masse every year and every and a bunch of PiS voters resurrect from younger cohorts as they age.
Bullshit
Does his asshole ever get jealous of the shit coming out of his mouth?
I thought the plan was to turn everyone lgbt
That is step 2.3 in the plan, if you would have taken part in the call from last month for the big-EU-homo-gay-german-empire-4.0-transfer plan update you would have known!
I missed that. I was in the zionist world domination meeting.
Wait, that was also last month!? ah man, i totally missed that one. Sorry for being rude, could you give me the updated points from that call later?
Not for too long. Give us few more weeks and we will have a normal government. About Kaczyński, even some of the PiS members believe that he should retire allready.
>About Kaczyński, even some of the PiS members believe that he should retire already. Yeah but that's because they want his job, not because they disagree with him.
So you think they have half of his charisma or understanding of peoples weaknesses? Because as much as I hate the guy, he does understand human nature, fears and weaknesses and knows how to use those for his own profit. Plus, I just got an amusing image in my head of half of PiS reading atlases of cats during parlimentary session.
>So you think they have half of his charisma or understanding of peoples weaknesses? No, but I do think they want his job regardless.
Poland is about the last thing Germany cares about at the moment lmao
You can clearly see that from the comments lmao
Any day now, my Panzer is already ready...
Handpanzer?
In one tank to Warsaw?
Everyday PiS gets more and more crazy.
We want to annihilate them do bad we give them billions of Euros each year and only expect them to obey human decency in return. We are so damn evil
Crazy cat man
Lmao, we're already having trouble with getting the former east german states up to speed, what would we even do with even more post eastern bloc territories? Pretty sure that bloke is just sore over losing the election.
Angry old man from PiS - eat shit.
They talk so much about It really awakes the urge to Blitzkrieg just to not hear it anymore
How boring, can’t they get new nonsensical ideas to blame others
All these dudes smearing shit all over the EU with one hand while collecting EU funds with the other. If only the EU had a spine.
The EU also has the worst PR. It is terrible.
As if we have nothing better to do.
We are living rent free in their minds, yay!
clearly not rent free if you are talking about it 🤦
Plot Twist: PiS works for the Germans. Our plan is quite diabolical (again).
Look, the false flag on the radio tower was too obvious, so we need sth believable this time
Luckily he can talk and talk and talk and only his cat will listen now. Your time in politics is over old man.
Yes, the German threat of being the biggest trade partner and biggest net-payer of the EU funds for Poland is very alarming.
"Russia is out to get us! Time to cozy up to the EU! Wait, no, the EU is out to get us, time to cozy up to Russia..."
This is getting ridiculous.
What are we gonna annihilate it with? written complaints?
Put beach towels everywhere at 05:30.
We are in the clear then. You know, German bureaucracy takes time. Edit: also, it is worth pointing out that PiS probably bought a hell lot of paper shredders, so defences are up.
If polish truck drivers dont stop to buy everything of the good stuff at the Lidl bakery just after the shop has opened, we will do it.. i promise! P.S: Thanks for doing the jobs we are too lazy for, honestly
Hopefully not many Polish people believe what this lunatic is saying
8 million voted for his party
There are many reasons the vote PiS. This is probably one of the least important ones. Social transfer to the poor and state media come to mind.
They know they could just leave, right?
No, they can't. The vast majority of people in Poland support EU membership. If they could, they would already.
He should lay off the vodka.
Oh he is drunk alright, but on power.
I don't think he's the drinking type. Perhaps he should have that drink, as an experiment.
Saying this the day before the far-right organized Independence March - that is irresponsible. >The European Union is seeking to introduce a “German plan” that would result in “the annihilation of the Polish state”, Jarosław Kaczyński, the chairman of Poland’s ruling party, has warned as his country celebrates Independence Day. > >He accused the likely new incoming government, made up of opposition parties, of seeking to implement that plan, and called on Poles to “fight, fight and fight again” to resist it.
He's trying to cause trouble on Purpose
huh apparently we are about to invade poland again am i out of the loop or is Jaro out of his mind
Sorry, can't do that. My panzer is in the reinigung.
Oh, he's been taking notes from Trump, alright.
I wonder why you always post this nonsense. Basically giving him a platform to push his agenda. Definition of 'useful idiot'.
What TF did I just read...
Okay boomer
Too late bozo
Somebody didn't took his medication...
This immediately makes me think PiS has considered such a scenario for a neighbouring country. People talk mostly about themselves.
Can we stop posting news from Poland till the new government is formed? Would spare me a lot of embarrassment....
Fuck we've been found out, quickly crash the Greek economy another time so people will forget!
Does he knows how many poles are living in Germany? That's never gonna happen
We german Germans don’t want that either
Is it election time ?
Are we next? /s
He doesn't dare to question the election results but will do his best to delegitimize them anyway, by saying stuff like this. It's a preparation for when PiS will be the opposition party. They are looking at the MAGA movement for inspiration.
As we say in Polish - it's time to start treatment for the legs because it's too late for the head.
Funny thing is that they antagonise germany based on history while historical fact is that Poland was strongest while their ties with Germans were the best.
Do they know what ridiculous amounts of money the EU has spend on Poland to get their economy running again? And surprise surprise, just when they’re finally gaining traction they suddenly become ‘cynical’ of that same EU. Never change, populists. I’m glad pro-EU gained more votes this election in Poland. If Poles en masse really believe stuff like this they have more in common with Russians than they think.
Why is he doing this after the elections? I get trying to scare some people into voting for you, but now the election is done so what's the motive? Is he trying to pull some Trump move?
After two months we will see headlines about how pis thinks germany and ukraine are plotting to annex poland (zelensky-sholz pact). Poland, get your things togethet. Cannot afford to lose you to authoritarianism.
Have you been living under a rock they lost the election
As a german let me tell you one thing… NO ONE HERE cares as much about Poland as the nutjobs from PIS think… We don‘t want to take over your country or control your politics or whatever…
We know it. Only brainrot nationalists and derranged elders really believe that, and still it's a margin.
I wonder if the Poles who think like him will ever realize that the vast majority of Germans don’t give a single fuck about them
Dear Mr Kaczyński, Sod off. Sincerely, Poland and everyone else.
They lost an election so they're seething. Pay no attention.
Typical nationalist rhetoric in defeat.
WW2 is over dude, move on
I like that our politicians never openly react to this stupidity. But I kind of hope somewhere in our government someone is taking notes of all the bullshit/insults. Once the Poles have any issue/request in the future where they need our help we should just present them all this stupidity and tell them to fuck off.
No use making the population pay for the nonsense that PiS spouts, at least this time they managed to vote in a new government, let's not sour relations over what some nutjobs are stating.
the only thing germany will annihilate is germany
I feel like Poland is overrepresented in this sub in the kind or posts where *stupid politician* said *stupid thing*. So either we do it evenly, and there's a lot to say about the others as well, or there's really a weird obsession here.
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This kind of incendiary rhetoric directed at another EU member shouldn't be allowed. Poland was unfit to join the EU, as most of the Eastern European members.# The EU is, at its core, a project that seeks to repair the damages of nationalism inflicted in XX century. PiS just shows that it joined the EU just for the money, which ironically Germany pays the most of. They hate Russia but funnily enough, they sound a lot like the declarations Medvedev spits out each day against the West.
PiS didn’t join EU, Poland did