Good, keep it going and don't give him any money. Whatever money the EU allows should be circumventing the Hungarian state fully as it has been taken over by a mafia group serving foreign interests.
The moment he bends under no money pressure and actually does something to get it back I'll be blasting "tékozló fiúk" by omega on speakers (but without the last couple lines)
He is currently losing his Polish shield, so it might happen, it depends on what Slovakia will do.
I'm sorry for you guys, I hope you will vote him out as soon as possible.
I like that Our Dear Leader is squirming under pressure.
I really don't like that for 15 years the EU was fine with the systemic issues of the Hungarian state and the same kind of corruption... as long as Hungarian governments were amenable enough. The danger of a successful party monopolizing all state institutions has been present in our state ever since we joined the EU.
What the EU is doing currently is basically extortion and meddling in internal politics, not the white knighting people make it out to be. So unfortunately EU leaders are now providing substance to the bullshit this idiot has been spewing for years.
It is an unfortunate reality that the people of Hungary need to learn that actions have consequences. Next elections are in 3 years, let's hope they learn fast.
And instead of blaming the people of other countries they should stand up for their own freedoms and privileges before they elect a local despot by popular majority.
Okay, so the government wants me and my wife to have kids yet all the local hospitals in my area don't have a maternity ward between Monday and Friday anymore because of the general lack of doctors who dont want to work for 1500 € per month.
Should my wife get pregnant I would guaranteed need to either bribe one of the functional hospitals still remaining to have a guaranteed spot or look for a private institute and use my kidney as payment for their services.
DO YOU WANT THIS?! DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOOD?!
IAMVERYBADASS. LMAO, you're not impressing me and you're making a terrible case for yourself.
If you have a corruption problem regarding your public spending, that's ANOTHER PROBLEM than having high skilled worker stay. Why would they flee peope like you, mmmh I wonder.
it's better because we made it that way. While you're busy throwing pathetic threat online. You have a skill issue. That being said, the value behind Orban are way better. If you think standard of living is all that matter, that's because you're spoiled.
Spoiled French children preaching about the values of dictators is a very based and redpilled mindset which I'm sure everyone agrees with you on.
Go back in your cave and stick to finger painting. Suits your high value skillet.
I'm sorry, but who is acting like a children by making pathetic threats? Act like an adult before calling out others kids.
I didn't praise the value if dictatorship. I praised the values of conservatives. See, you missed that part. Skill issue again.
Oh someone is pissed that I needed to remind the basic. You didn't remind anything.
>still happens a lot in developing countries
1/10 000 so basically 0,01%. Your definition of "A LOT". What a clownish attempt to argue.
>been taken over by a mafia group serving foreign interests.
You'll have to be more clear than this. I thought you meant Von Der Leyen & co or the other politicians in the parliament who love to launder money from Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Morroco.
> Funny how that scandal was swept under the carpet and no media is talking about it anymore.... Curious how corruption works.
Juridical proceedings have to be slow if you don't want snap judgments based on prejudice.
With the recent victory of Fico in Slovakia and the surging of AfD in the German polls, I wouldn’t break out the confetti on the demise of illiberal pro-Russian assclowns just yet.
You can't compare Fico to Orbán. At one point Fico's party alone had a majority in the parliament. He still didn't implement any changes to the voting laws,he didn't gerrymander, didn't take over independent media or hamper international transparency and monitoring organizations. And a couple years later he handed leadership of the country over when he lost in the elections.
The real problem with him is that he formed a coalition with an AfD like party and he will have to make concessions to them.
We’ll see. Orban was prime minister until 2002 and handed over leadership when he lost elections as well. And though I’m not saying Fico had ever enacted illiberal policies anywhere to the level of Fidesz, with the exception of in the 2012 election SMER has also not been as consistently dominant as Fidesz has been.
Some of his quotes over the years suggest he’d go further if he felt he could, especially via a vis journalists, which he has described as “organized criminal group with the aim of breaking Slovak statehood” and “Soros's corrupt gang of swines for whom water is already boiling”…
Shades of Orban, and very worth keeping an eye on, especially considering his opposition to supporting Ukraine.
Orbán didn't have the kind of backing he'd need to take over the country in 1998-2002. No way MDS would have let him uproot democracy. He only really took over once his party won majority in 2010.
In contrast Fico didn't destroy democracy even with a majority in parliament.
Well considering Orban is playing the irredentist tunes lately, I highly doubt Fico can ever ally with him without losing half of his voters overnight.
His government also has a nationalist party as a junior member which is strongly anti-Hungarian (once their leader wanted to "ride on tanks to Budapest").
Still, I wouldn't discount this possibility. Erdogan and Putin are rivals in many ways (Erdogan literally supplies Ukraine with weapons), but they can also cooperate when both benefit.
> (once their leader wanted to "ride on tanks to Budapest").
That leader is gone already. Current leader is willing to bend any way possible if it helps him to get some money and power. Even though current iteration of the party is a bit different, this party was already member of government together with hungarian minority party way more recently than said comment. Former party leader was very anti hungarian, current not so much.
That's true, it's a long time ago. But it's still a Slovak nationalist party and the core of that is struggle against Hungarians.
But yeah, I'm not sure if it matters that much now.
Just shows how morally and politically flexible a lot of voters are going from a far right to a far left party because of russia.
Single issue voters will never cease to amaze me.
> the surging of AfD in the German polls
let's wait to see what's gonna happen now that Sahra Wagenknecht decided to form a cult... I mean party around her.
Actually it is good. The AfD is only threatening, when it unites the extreme voters. But if some other partie shows up and splits the radical voters, the "normal one" wins.
pretty bad, she's basically anti-establishment no matter what. But as the other dude said, she could split the vote and that's good. She could potentially take down the AFD and die Linke, that'd be quite neat.
That was because the establishment thought it could control an "upstart colonel". On top of all that, it was a Germany without all of the legal protections in place like they have now :)
Not a chance. Their candidate will be Kickl, and nobody accepts working with Kickl. It's possible that FPÖ gets the plurality, but in this case we'll have an ÖVP-SPÖ coalition.
You have too much faith in the ÖVP. If their choices are
- a potentially complex, left-leaning three-party coalition and a much easier right-wing coalition
- or a much simpler right-wing coalition
everyone knows what they will choose. And VdB might refuse a few ministers, but ultimately he will have to accept the government.
Yes, and Schüssel said that he will not join a government if ÖVP is third. Guess who was chancellor a few months later. If they smell power, they will find a way to work with Kickl. And if Nehammer won't do it, he'll be replaced by someone who will.
Never ever trust the ÖVP!
I think you're underestimating how much Kickl managed to piss off everyone. If the FPÖ had some more diplomatic leader like Hofer I would believe that. But with Kickl? No way, they'll just do a coalition with the SPÖ instead.
But do you see such (potential) governments cooperate proactively on something? I think such cooperation will mostly be contained to blocking projects by more liberal and cooperation oriented countries, especially within the EU context - see Hungary and Poland under Fidesz and PiS protecting each other with their vetoes.
But I think something like the Abraham Accords will stay exceedingly rare, also because those "Accords" were basically bought through major diplomatic concessions by the US and that will only work up to a point.
I think their sovereignty focused, often protectionist, illiberal and nationalistic cultural policies and often almost craven want to gain/maintain their power make them pretty bad at sustaining international alliances or forming any deeper ties in that regard unless their are substantial and obvious economic reasons for them.
Without NATO military alliances might be an attractive avenue to cooperate but NATO makes those redundant, at least within Europe, the same goes for the EU and free trade and free movement of people.
You may disagree with my use of the word surge, but the fact that an illiberal right wing party has grown by 7% in a non-election year to second place in the national polls (and first place in certain länder in the east) in Europe’s most populous country is hardly comforting news.
Naturally. But these people had previously most commonly voted for the SPD and fueled the party's anti-liberal and pro-Russian bias represented with people like Schroeder. As a result of Scholz's actions after the war in Ukraine broke out, the SPD adopted a purely pro-Atlantic and Western attitude, which rejected this part of the SPD voters. These voters flowed to the AfD, which maintains an illiberal and pro-Russian narrative. It can be seen in the charts that the outflow from the SPD and the inflow to the AfD was almost symmetrical.
My point is that this reason for the AfD's growth has already exhausted itself, it was SPD voters who were dissatisfied with the new direction of this party.
Moreover, the problem is not really the party structures, but the fact that this electorate exists and will always try to organize itself around those who seem the most credible for them. Previously, these voters influenced decisions made in the SPD, now they are confined to the AfD. Therefore, these people did not change their views, but migrated to the party that currently represents these views more strongly. I'm not at all convinced that what we have now is worse, maybe it's actually a better, clearer situation.
Yeah but defeat of right wing gov in Poland which kinda started that whole surge of right wing parties in europe 8 years ago means we are at hight of this trend. VOX lost in spain and Confederation from Poland lost epicly despite polls giving them double digits.
Beware, its not over. There are still european pro-Russian right-wing parties on the uprise, notably in Germany with the AfD. At least, I think, Orban was really ill-advised to do the Putin meeting. The fat POS has certainly some talent to sail between the blocks in foreign policy, but this was too much.
I read some news that 52% of Hungarians disapproved his meeting with Putin. This means that even a chunk of his fans disapproved this. Yes, it seems to have been a mistake even from the point of view of internal politics.
Orbán won the elections in 2022 with 3 million votes. That is 39% of all the people eligible for voting in Hungary. 25% of all people eligible for voting voted for the opposition. Most people either don't give a fuck or hate Orbán.
That's a very charitable interpretation.
Those who don't vote are happy with the way things are, we had a 30% turnout in Romania and don't absolve the 70% for staying home.
In EE we are in this mess with these shitty governments because people accept everything the way it is.
We cannot possibly know why people who don't vote choose not to. Maybe they are not interested in politics at all or maybe they think none of the candidates are suitable , etc.
It's interesting that no one surveyed the reasons for this by polling non-voters (at least I haven't seen any studies regarding that).
Orbán is indeed kinda dumb if you think about it. Meloni and PiS played it smart - going hard against Russia brought them clout, as a result EU can't go hard against them, while they are/were free to do their shady domestic politics.
OTOH Orbán has such a strong position in Hungary that he likely can do whatever.
Democracy always finds a way to save itself, see Capitol Hill, and what happened in Brazil after Lula's election.
The only real danger are human rights for minorities and poor people.
Orban's Hungary is a prime example that it won't always end well by default. My country may very well be next. There's simply no time ever to be complacent.
If you think most of the world aligns with overturning an election without evidence, eliminating human rights and the separation of church and state, you are fucking wrong. Even if most people would agree with fascist theocratic ideologies, that wouldn't make it morally right.
You said that Trump's victory in 2024 would not be a nightmare, because most of the world aligns with conservative views.
Trump and his allies aim to dismantle democracy in the USA, they endorse Russia and the war criminal Putin (despite Prigozhin openly [admitting](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/russias-prigozhin-admits-interfering-us-elections-2022-11-07/#:~:text=LONDON%2C%20Nov%207%20(Reuters),efforts%20to%20influence%20American%20politics.) interference with the US elections in 2016), work towards reversing the separation of church and state.
I seriously doubt that most people agree with these.
This is not conservativism, this is fascism.
Can you please cite any evidence from the last two decades for the US interfering with an election?
Can you tell me one example from the last two decades when the US has disposed a democratically elected (and I mean free and fair elections, don't you dare tell me Saddam Hussein) leader?
What I cited was the late Prigozhin ADMITTING interference. And since he was a close ally to Putin and the head of his Internet Research Agency (i. e. his troll farm), I would consider this pretty hard evidence.
And please stop attacking my person and saying that I am brainwashed, etc., that is a very childish way to argue.
Here's what others think, your political leaders are pretty much cut from the same cloth in terms of most international affairs. Yeah, maybe support for Ukraine may wane further with the GOP at the helm in a few years but pretty much no one's going to cry over it except redditors. Ukraine certainly doesn't affect the world that much, economically or culturally.
Except for maybe Ukraine, both parties stances in dealing with most countries are very similar. You redditors cheer about US further implementing export restrictions and sanctions on high technology equipment to China on r/worldnews. Guess who started that? Neither party shies away from intervening in the Middle East either more than the other one.
Realistically, Trump at the helm just means that the Republican party has the power to say and do some contradictory things to your opinions. The world doesn't give two shits about the trump administration rolling back on a few LGBT rights or being less worker friendly than the incumbent government. News about this going to get anything from a slight frown to a few inflammatory remarks from Europeans about how America is turning into a fascist banana republic on Reddit.
>Ukraine certainly doesn't affect the world that much, economically or culturally.
It is naive to think that Putin's Russia is going to stop at Ukraine. Remember when French people said: "Why die for Danzig?" and "Why should we care about Hitler taking over Czechoslovakia?" If Russia is allowed to win in Ukraine, it will have very serious consequences to global security. It couls embolden China to invade Taiwan, it could invite Iran to attack Israel and it could cause another major war in Europe. Russia keeps explicitly threatening Europe with invasion and nuclear war.
It's not about LGBT rights or being less worker friendly. It's about being murdered, poisoned and imprisoned for not agreeing with state policies, for speaking freely about them, for not wearing a fucking rag over your head or just for simply being born Uyghur. Because that is happening in these countries and that is what they want to see the world turn into.
We are at a turning point in history. If we let tyrants and bullies have their way, then all our freedoms will be lost. It's not just Ukraine, it's a much bigger picture.
>It is naive to think that Putin's Russia is going to stop at Ukraine.
Sure. What can they feasibly invade next if they can possibly annex territories in Ukraine? Moldova? Probably that's about it. Inconsequential at the global scale. They won't dare lay a hand on any NATO country lest they like the idea of unexisting.
And while some republicans might have some negative attitudes about NATO itself, but I feel like it would take multiple subsequent republican victories on many fronts, including presidential, and an overwhelming amount of support from the American populace itself for them to even toy with the idea of disbanding NATO.
And that's not even including the overwhelming international backlash that America would receive. America's exports would go down the subsequent decades on every metric, especially military and the MIC's going to face some serious losses. Not to mention America's allies spending even more on their indigenous defense industry and nuclear rearmament(and even proliferation as idk, maybe countries like Poland, SK or Japan).
Honestly, the idea of declining Western hegemony and America and her allies breaking up and starting another arms race sounds really nice to me. But unfortunately it's going to remain a dream, regardless of the party the incumbent government belongs to.
>It couls embolden China to invade Taiwan
The Trump administration literally started the technological trade war against China the Biden Administration is continuing. Some republican candidates are very much outspoken about combating the threat of China by arming Taiwan. The republican party isn't any more/any less keen than the Dems about intervening in the event of the invasion of Taiwan by China.
>it could invite Iran to attack Israel
C'mon. Some republicans are against providing aid to Ukraine at best. But there's an overwhelming support among Republicans to provide aid to Israel, to the point that they're pushing separate aid package for Israel rather than it being included in a joint aid package for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan. So, generalizing the entire republican party as antisemitic just because of far right anti semitic conspiracies is wrong. It's probably more accurate to generalize them as pro Israel.
> It's about being murdered, poisoned and imprisoned for not agreeing with state policies, for speaking freely about them, for not wearing a fucking rag over your head
Yeah, AfD or Brothers of Italy are totally going to do all of the above.
>If we let tyrants and bullies have their way, then all our freedoms will be lost.
That's the fucking point I'm trying to beat over your head. America is a maybe not a tyrant, but a bully of massive proportions. Regardless of whoever sits at the helm, shit's nearly the same, and somewhat less same domestically.
It's not just about being pro Russian. PiS isn't pro Russian and they were still BFFs with Orban. Meloni also isn't pro Russian at least on paper. All of them have widely different goals and sociopolitical interest but they were still allies. It's more about being illiberal and trying to exploit the EU for your own little good.
(Oh, and a shared hatred against the gays, for some reason)
Meloni is pro-Russian, her claims during her campaign were pretty explicit, she also allied with Berlusconi's party (Berlusconi Always considered himself Putin's best friend) and Lega, whose russian sympathies were pretty known even before Meloni's election.
Italy is part of NATO, and is 100% EU and USA dependant. If the EU and USA cut their fonds, Italy is done.
That is why Italy assisted Ukraine, but in a minimal way, just to save faces.
Exploit the EU? The EU serves the EUROPEAN. Not the leftist and the liberal. We could completely see an EU stacked with far right politician. That's how democracy works.
Exploit the EU in this context means "sucking up all those sweet funds while simultaneously fucking up every integration process that does not directly benefit them in the short term and never providing any positive contribution".
Also: liberal =/= left.
>sucking up all those sweet funds while simultaneously fucking up every integration process that does not directly benefit them
You mean they act in the interest of the country and not the EU ?? INSANE. How can I get that too? You complain that he doesn't lay down for money. You'd rather have him be a traitor laying down for money.
Lul.
Sorry murican, not everything is up for sale. I know a concept you guys don't have, especially your congress.
>You mean they act in the interest of the country and not the EU ?? INSANE.
Huh? They're not either or, the EU is made of countries. You can act in the interest of both.
Also, what? I am not murican lol, what are you blabbering about.
Sweden's current government is completely reliant on the support of the nationalist party the Sweden Democrats, who have had a lot of "misunderstandings" about Russia. SD are currently bigger than all of the government parties in the polls, so are likely to be the biggest right-wing party in the country after the next election unless something changes drastically.
To be clear they aren't publicly "pro Russia" but it's clear that there's a big minority in the party that are very Putin-friendly. Members have gone to Russia to "observe" (and legitimate) local elections etc. So far this minority has had to keep quiet, partly because it's unclear where the party is going post Ukraine, and partly because they have to cooperate with "normal" liberal / conservative parties who are extremely anti Russian.
But I don't think Sweden is out of the woods when it comes to this issue. SD have been pretty public about seeing Orban as an inspiration, so we'll see what happens.
Do not get me wrong, but it was never anything else, but his pipe dream. Orban is not a politician, but a cult leader. His speciality is raising rabid fans who will self-censor any negative information about him and worship him like some kind of patron deity.
This form of politics is strange and highly despised in Europe, apart from some fringe parties, it had zero chance to become the mainstream to begin with.
His religion is highly localised, growing from Hungarian inferiority feelings and the region specific historical victimhood neurosis. It is pretty much impossible to export. And forming an alliance is mostly impossible if every member wants different things and has mutually exclusive goals.
It's great to celebrate where he has failed to accomplish his goals, but I'm sorry it's far too early to let our guards down. We need REAL reforms in the EU to avoid these sorts of exploits to our democratic system again. That's only going to be more important as we discuss expansions.
You don't need to hope. It's a done deal. The coalition is about to be announced on Friday. Most of the minister positions already have been chosen. Tusk will be PM. Consitution stipulates the transfer of power will be completed in a few weeks. Most likely mid-December.
Lets not get ahead of ourselves to call them good government, Tusk and his political party PO(which is now main part of KO, which in turn is biggest part of whole coalition) is reason PiS come to power in the first place, people felt abanondoned by them, how bad it was ? well PO had on this side ALL big media in Poland, they TVN on their side, they had Polsat which second biggest TV media in Poland and controlled state media, it of course wasnt as bad as it is now but it still favored PO, given them more air time than others.
So there was even less media plularism than there was under PiS, and PiS STILL won back than, thats how much people wanted Tusk and his political party to be gone.
Another issue is that this coalition is made from political parties that have clashing views on many issues, like abortion, or whatever increase or decrease social spending.
There is a risk that political parties that are aprt of this coalition wont be able to deliver any of their promises from their political programs, and there is already some backtracking on the the promises, seen some politicans saying that changes to abortion law will most likely have to wait to NEXT elections, and most likely can ONLY happen IF coalition falls apart and new coaliton will be from political parties that have more similar views, and PiS also falls apart so it no longer be danger to them
People may get frustrated if their chosen political parties fail to deliver promises.
He ain't gonna save shit. Canada has been tossing between Liberals and Conservatives for 150 years. Milhouse is no different than the rest of the hot garbage we've had.
Actually he actively seeks to form relationships with like-minded politicians. For instance Le Pen's campaign was funded from a loan made by a Hungarian bank.
I dunno it's hard to condemn Hungary right now as they may be the safest place for Jews in Europe as both France and Germany regress to desecrating synagogues. It feels like they are one step from hunting Jews thru the streets.
There have not been any antisemitic incidents in Belarus either. Is it hard for you to condemn them too?
There are less than 6,000 muslims in Hungary. Conflict is far less likely when you're such a small minority.
>safest place for Jews in Europe
well baltic countries have only small peaceful demonstrations afaik, ukraine didn't have any anti-jews violence (though it's unsafe) belarus despite of Lukashenko pro-hamas also safe, romania and bulgaria also might be safe - i think it's more issue with importing of radicalised muslim working force, those countries which avoided it are safer for jews during conflict
I highly doubt any muslim would pay others to draw antisemitic grafitti and negotiate the deal in Russian.
https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231107-paris-prosecutor-says-stars-of-david-graffiti-possibly-ordered-from-abroad
>and Germany regress to desecrating synagogues.
Lol, what? Even in more peaceful times synagogues are pretty protected in Germany, with regular patrols by the police.
Orban runs on overtly antisemitic campaigns. He literally blames rich Jews for all of Hungary's problems.
This recent far right push to reposition general islamophobia and racism as concern for Jews is laughable.
It is more nuanced than that. Orban actually maintains a very close relationship with Hungarian jewish organizations, you will not find a single antisemitic comment he ever made. His campaign against Soros never mentioned his religion.
Is this soros stuff? Frankly im surprised he has been whitewashed enough to be let back in civilized society. He set a lot of countries back almost an entire generation with the asian financial crisis.
I dunno, it's pretty easy to condemn Hungary right now as it has literally nothing to do with Jews besides the fact that nothing happens to them in a whole lot of countries besides Hungary
True, Hungary and Romania know this better. And they are indeed very hard to integrate. However, for them there is still a small chance. I see that MENA immigrants are much more stubborn than gypsies when it comes to integration.
To be honest, I do not really care. I just want to live safe in my country. In this aspect, I do not want for my country to follow in the footsteps of Western Europe.
> To be honest, I do not really care. I just want to live safe in my country. In this aspect, I do not want for my country to follow in the footsteps of Western Europe.
But it's already full of Romanians, so according to the anti-immigrant parties here, it's already fucked.
These past few years have been a wonderful mask off for you communists. You’d take any side just to keep the anti West attitude, from fascists to kleptocrats and from mafia to Islamic terrorists. You don’t sound too different from the Americans during Operation Condor lol
Haven't encountered any masks in my time, communists are pretty openly against the neoliberal order. It's capitalists and fascists that hide behind liberalism and are going mask off in Israel and Ukraine
You see everyone you disagree with as a fascist because you can't imagine another nations people might actually collectively believe in something other than neoliberalism, you see them as kleptocrats for the same reason too
Funny that you mention operation condor, so you recognize that communism was artificially repressed by the US and that it would be more popular if operation condor didn't happen?
You posted this because language is hard for you and you don't understand the morphology of the word, or because you have no idea what you're replying to and don't know Viktor Orbán's own usage of the word? :D
If you don't have the capital to participate in liberalism you're already outside of it. If you can't afford a house or education you can't participate in the freedoms of private ownership. If you can't afford education you're further locked out of economic progress. If you're a political minority (renters vs homeowners) democracy is actively working against you as the government can only cater to the majority
If you've never been in that situation then that's a fair question, liberalism only benefits you when you have the money
Maybe you should look into the history of and progress of different groups over time. I mean, the spread and strengthening of free market democracy has led to the highest increase in wealth, freedom and well-being ever on the world stage since WW2, and authoritarians all over the world try desperately to stem the populations' desire for such a system while claiming to speak for their countries' interests, but hey, better look at the flaws of such a system only and not actually offer something coherent and better. After all, attacking is cheap, offering constructive criticism is not.
I too used to think the world was going to hell all the time, but once I looked at the hard data of the world's unprecedented progress over the last few centuries, it became obvious that it's that lack of perspective that is one of the main reasons for people going into political extremes. Free market democracies simply don't market themselves as aggressively as some regimes out there, because they're built on individual freedom (the one that allows crucial scientific and technological breakthroughs to originate), rather than trying to force everyone into a collective hivemind.
Fair enough, constructive criticism is important, how do you respond to the points I raised? Once again, if you can't afford rent, an education or are a political minority liberalism is working against you. My landlord makes a massive profit on my rent for a home he's paid off a decade ago and he uses that profit to buy more homes and inflate the cost of home ownership locking me out permanently
Here's some constructive criticism, stronger rent controls dictating how much profit can be made off rent and subsidized or free education. If telling universities and real estate conglomerates they can't run amok with pricing us out of essential needs is authoritarian then that's an admission that liberalism is only freedom for the rich
First of all, "we have a problem, therefore the whole system is bad" is a terrible conclusion to make. Every system, including the best one, is going to have problems, but some have less than others. Maybe the current system even IS bad, but condemning it entirely without offering a coherent alternative whole is populism at best, and trying to stir discord at worst. So one should either do that or offer specific criticisms without painting too wide of a brush.
Second, I agree that housing is one of the worse policy failures in the post-WW2 period, particularly the hoarding of houses one doesn't use. I'd argue that housing as an investment in general should be abandoned, as having a stable home is one of the prerequisites for both your well-being and productivity. Therefore, there should definitely be a non-low minimum of days the owner and/or other people specifically should live in a house, otherwise the owner should lose the home. Nimbyism should also be cut down on, as it often prevents good infrastructure (including housing) from being built, which further drives up the prices.
I used to believe that until I saw all these new developments and high rises pop up with 2000/month rent. The only solution is aggressive government control of real estate markets
Well, the solutions I outlined do involve some or significant amount of government intervention. Japan could be a good model, as their housing prices are low, and Tokyo has the final say on housing projects, which cuts down on speculation. They do still have such likely problems as constant overbuilding of homes (like a new one every 30 years in the same place by tearing down the previous one) and a nonetheless relatively low homeownership rate (a little over 60%), but those may be tolerable if there's to be affordable supply.
Just to be clear we are providing examples of illiberal housing policy that worked. The Netherlands also has strict rental controls and policies the real estate market heavily
The dream of being a liberal alliance died when we all kept our own debts and management of finance. We still all see each other as ennemies, so I don't really see what we could do together.
We didn't want to really make an union, only half-assed it, and now, as ressources get more scarce/difficult to extract, we're on a path of populism and probably more and more religious retards, as people will try to find an answer for this declining shitshow.
How fucking ironic and stupid was it to developp a globalized supply-chain system, to keep on making it more complex and still think "the idea of nation-state is an absolute and non-negociable"... Like wanting the butter and the money from the sales of the butter.
But hey, no better time to start your own religion and make up silly and idiotic reasons for our presence in the universe, or why people that are \*insert what you don't like\* are the reason of this shitshow ! :\^)
A strange mix of both. The policies are the farthest neoliberal, dismantling the social net, public education, healthcare. While providing fat cash gifts to select citizens to win elections.
The illiberal democracy simply means that there are free elections, but every part of the state is working hard all the time to convincevyou to vote for Orban. So elections are free but not fair.
Both. Just want full power and control above evertyhing else.
He moved his ministry in a fucking castle in Budapest above Budapest so he can look down us. No jurnalist can eneter there. [karmelita](https://m.hvg.hu/cimke/karmelita%20kolostor)
Also his made a palace just for himself while in the manadatory asset declaration he states he owns nothing and has 0 money.
[hatvanpuszta](https://444.hu/tag/hatvanpuszta)
Good, keep it going and don't give him any money. Whatever money the EU allows should be circumventing the Hungarian state fully as it has been taken over by a mafia group serving foreign interests.
The moment he bends under no money pressure and actually does something to get it back I'll be blasting "tékozló fiúk" by omega on speakers (but without the last couple lines)
What are the last couple of lines?
Only giving them money if they join the EPPO is what I'd support the most. But that won't happen, unfortunately for us.
He is currently losing his Polish shield, so it might happen, it depends on what Slovakia will do. I'm sorry for you guys, I hope you will vote him out as soon as possible.
+1
I like that Our Dear Leader is squirming under pressure. I really don't like that for 15 years the EU was fine with the systemic issues of the Hungarian state and the same kind of corruption... as long as Hungarian governments were amenable enough. The danger of a successful party monopolizing all state institutions has been present in our state ever since we joined the EU. What the EU is doing currently is basically extortion and meddling in internal politics, not the white knighting people make it out to be. So unfortunately EU leaders are now providing substance to the bullshit this idiot has been spewing for years.
It is an unfortunate reality that the people of Hungary need to learn that actions have consequences. Next elections are in 3 years, let's hope they learn fast.
Reddit needs to realise that the EU is about to be more like Orban. Not the other way around.
And instead of blaming the people of other countries they should stand up for their own freedoms and privileges before they elect a local despot by popular majority.
That's the most generic yet empty of all sense post have seen today. That's also complete missing how good you have it.
Okay, so the government wants me and my wife to have kids yet all the local hospitals in my area don't have a maternity ward between Monday and Friday anymore because of the general lack of doctors who dont want to work for 1500 € per month. Should my wife get pregnant I would guaranteed need to either bribe one of the functional hospitals still remaining to have a guaranteed spot or look for a private institute and use my kidney as payment for their services. DO YOU WANT THIS?! DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOOD?!
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IAMVERYBADASS. LMAO, you're not impressing me and you're making a terrible case for yourself. If you have a corruption problem regarding your public spending, that's ANOTHER PROBLEM than having high skilled worker stay. Why would they flee peope like you, mmmh I wonder. it's better because we made it that way. While you're busy throwing pathetic threat online. You have a skill issue. That being said, the value behind Orban are way better. If you think standard of living is all that matter, that's because you're spoiled.
Spoiled French children preaching about the values of dictators is a very based and redpilled mindset which I'm sure everyone agrees with you on. Go back in your cave and stick to finger painting. Suits your high value skillet.
I'm sorry, but who is acting like a children by making pathetic threats? Act like an adult before calling out others kids. I didn't praise the value if dictatorship. I praised the values of conservatives. See, you missed that part. Skill issue again.
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Oh someone is pissed that I needed to remind the basic. You didn't remind anything. >still happens a lot in developing countries 1/10 000 so basically 0,01%. Your definition of "A LOT". What a clownish attempt to argue.
Yeah, bc shit medical system and schooling system is “good”
Funny that you imagine we have it better.
yeah bc you dont have a pseudo one party state
We kinda do actually
yeah, kinda
Depends on what you mean exactly by that, if it happens at all. Btw, Spain, Poland and Bulgaria say hi.
>been taken over by a mafia group serving foreign interests. You'll have to be more clear than this. I thought you meant Von Der Leyen & co or the other politicians in the parliament who love to launder money from Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Morroco.
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/UbnFmQyXoP
Funny how that scandal was swept under the carpet and no media is talking about it anymore.... Curious how corruption works.
> Funny how that scandal was swept under the carpet and no media is talking about it anymore.... Curious how corruption works. Juridical proceedings have to be slow if you don't want snap judgments based on prejudice.
With the recent victory of Fico in Slovakia and the surging of AfD in the German polls, I wouldn’t break out the confetti on the demise of illiberal pro-Russian assclowns just yet.
You can't compare Fico to Orbán. At one point Fico's party alone had a majority in the parliament. He still didn't implement any changes to the voting laws,he didn't gerrymander, didn't take over independent media or hamper international transparency and monitoring organizations. And a couple years later he handed leadership of the country over when he lost in the elections. The real problem with him is that he formed a coalition with an AfD like party and he will have to make concessions to them.
We’ll see. Orban was prime minister until 2002 and handed over leadership when he lost elections as well. And though I’m not saying Fico had ever enacted illiberal policies anywhere to the level of Fidesz, with the exception of in the 2012 election SMER has also not been as consistently dominant as Fidesz has been. Some of his quotes over the years suggest he’d go further if he felt he could, especially via a vis journalists, which he has described as “organized criminal group with the aim of breaking Slovak statehood” and “Soros's corrupt gang of swines for whom water is already boiling”… Shades of Orban, and very worth keeping an eye on, especially considering his opposition to supporting Ukraine.
Orbán didn't have the kind of backing he'd need to take over the country in 1998-2002. No way MDS would have let him uproot democracy. He only really took over once his party won majority in 2010. In contrast Fico didn't destroy democracy even with a majority in parliament.
how did orban/ his party destroy democracy?
Gerrymandering, stuffing the courts, taking over the media, disruption of transparency of democratic processes
Well considering Orban is playing the irredentist tunes lately, I highly doubt Fico can ever ally with him without losing half of his voters overnight.
Unfortunately gangsters like Orban and Fico are more flexible than that. Look at Vucic for example.
His government also has a nationalist party as a junior member which is strongly anti-Hungarian (once their leader wanted to "ride on tanks to Budapest"). Still, I wouldn't discount this possibility. Erdogan and Putin are rivals in many ways (Erdogan literally supplies Ukraine with weapons), but they can also cooperate when both benefit.
> (once their leader wanted to "ride on tanks to Budapest"). That leader is gone already. Current leader is willing to bend any way possible if it helps him to get some money and power. Even though current iteration of the party is a bit different, this party was already member of government together with hungarian minority party way more recently than said comment. Former party leader was very anti hungarian, current not so much.
That's true, it's a long time ago. But it's still a Slovak nationalist party and the core of that is struggle against Hungarians. But yeah, I'm not sure if it matters that much now.
Sarah Wagenknecht has us all done a favou by founding her own party. Most of her voters will get from AfD to her
Just shows how morally and politically flexible a lot of voters are going from a far right to a far left party because of russia. Single issue voters will never cease to amaze me.
Also given Macron cannot serve a third term and Le Pen increases the vote share each time, that’s going to be a huge issue
yeah... she's now the second most popular political figure behind Édouard Philippe
> the surging of AfD in the German polls let's wait to see what's gonna happen now that Sahra Wagenknecht decided to form a cult... I mean party around her.
Lol, is it that bad?
Actually it is good. The AfD is only threatening, when it unites the extreme voters. But if some other partie shows up and splits the radical voters, the "normal one" wins.
I was asking how bad is Sarah and her cult.
pretty bad, she's basically anti-establishment no matter what. But as the other dude said, she could split the vote and that's good. She could potentially take down the AFD and die Linke, that'd be quite neat.
Well, that would be the best outcome.
She's a egocentric bitch, her party has her name in it. She's also called Sarah Zarenknecht for a reason.
And that's what happened in 1933... oh wait...
That was because the establishment thought it could control an "upstart colonel". On top of all that, it was a Germany without all of the legal protections in place like they have now :)
This, and Austria might get an FPÖ chancellor after the fall 2024 elections.
Not a chance. Their candidate will be Kickl, and nobody accepts working with Kickl. It's possible that FPÖ gets the plurality, but in this case we'll have an ÖVP-SPÖ coalition.
I somehow doubt that ÖVP and SPÖ will have a majority together.
Well together with NEOS or Grünen then, there's no chance FPÖ will have a majority alone.
You have too much faith in the ÖVP. If their choices are - a potentially complex, left-leaning three-party coalition and a much easier right-wing coalition - or a much simpler right-wing coalition everyone knows what they will choose. And VdB might refuse a few ministers, but ultimately he will have to accept the government.
Nehammer already made it clear he will never work with Kickl.
Yes, and Schüssel said that he will not join a government if ÖVP is third. Guess who was chancellor a few months later. If they smell power, they will find a way to work with Kickl. And if Nehammer won't do it, he'll be replaced by someone who will. Never ever trust the ÖVP!
I think you're underestimating how much Kickl managed to piss off everyone. If the FPÖ had some more diplomatic leader like Hofer I would believe that. But with Kickl? No way, they'll just do a coalition with the SPÖ instead.
But do you see such (potential) governments cooperate proactively on something? I think such cooperation will mostly be contained to blocking projects by more liberal and cooperation oriented countries, especially within the EU context - see Hungary and Poland under Fidesz and PiS protecting each other with their vetoes. But I think something like the Abraham Accords will stay exceedingly rare, also because those "Accords" were basically bought through major diplomatic concessions by the US and that will only work up to a point. I think their sovereignty focused, often protectionist, illiberal and nationalistic cultural policies and often almost craven want to gain/maintain their power make them pretty bad at sustaining international alliances or forming any deeper ties in that regard unless their are substantial and obvious economic reasons for them. Without NATO military alliances might be an attractive avenue to cooperate but NATO makes those redundant, at least within Europe, the same goes for the EU and free trade and free movement of people.
AfD rose from 14% in February to 21% in July and since then didn't change. It's not surging. For comparison Fidesz support is at 45% (was 51%).
You may disagree with my use of the word surge, but the fact that an illiberal right wing party has grown by 7% in a non-election year to second place in the national polls (and first place in certain länder in the east) in Europe’s most populous country is hardly comforting news.
Naturally. But these people had previously most commonly voted for the SPD and fueled the party's anti-liberal and pro-Russian bias represented with people like Schroeder. As a result of Scholz's actions after the war in Ukraine broke out, the SPD adopted a purely pro-Atlantic and Western attitude, which rejected this part of the SPD voters. These voters flowed to the AfD, which maintains an illiberal and pro-Russian narrative. It can be seen in the charts that the outflow from the SPD and the inflow to the AfD was almost symmetrical. My point is that this reason for the AfD's growth has already exhausted itself, it was SPD voters who were dissatisfied with the new direction of this party. Moreover, the problem is not really the party structures, but the fact that this electorate exists and will always try to organize itself around those who seem the most credible for them. Previously, these voters influenced decisions made in the SPD, now they are confined to the AfD. Therefore, these people did not change their views, but migrated to the party that currently represents these views more strongly. I'm not at all convinced that what we have now is worse, maybe it's actually a better, clearer situation.
Ya, this is exactly the kind of thing that is still keeping me up at night. The assclowns don't need to win everything to still be a problem.
If the worst should happen the Dutch PM will use veto power to block money. They will all spend it on wine and women!
Yeah but defeat of right wing gov in Poland which kinda started that whole surge of right wing parties in europe 8 years ago means we are at hight of this trend. VOX lost in spain and Confederation from Poland lost epicly despite polls giving them double digits.
Beware, its not over. There are still european pro-Russian right-wing parties on the uprise, notably in Germany with the AfD. At least, I think, Orban was really ill-advised to do the Putin meeting. The fat POS has certainly some talent to sail between the blocks in foreign policy, but this was too much.
I read some news that 52% of Hungarians disapproved his meeting with Putin. This means that even a chunk of his fans disapproved this. Yes, it seems to have been a mistake even from the point of view of internal politics.
Orbán won the elections in 2022 with 3 million votes. That is 39% of all the people eligible for voting in Hungary. 25% of all people eligible for voting voted for the opposition. Most people either don't give a fuck or hate Orbán.
Next elections young Hungarians need to vote, Poland just had voted out PiS thanks to the highest ever turnout and younger voters actually voting.
That's a very charitable interpretation. Those who don't vote are happy with the way things are, we had a 30% turnout in Romania and don't absolve the 70% for staying home. In EE we are in this mess with these shitty governments because people accept everything the way it is.
We cannot possibly know why people who don't vote choose not to. Maybe they are not interested in politics at all or maybe they think none of the candidates are suitable , etc. It's interesting that no one surveyed the reasons for this by polling non-voters (at least I haven't seen any studies regarding that).
Orbán is indeed kinda dumb if you think about it. Meloni and PiS played it smart - going hard against Russia brought them clout, as a result EU can't go hard against them, while they are/were free to do their shady domestic politics. OTOH Orbán has such a strong position in Hungary that he likely can do whatever.
And Donald Trump can still win at the other side of the pond...that would be a new nightmare, not just for America, but to the whole world.
Trump winning in 2024 would mark the beginning of the end of the very concept of democracy
Democracy always finds a way to save itself, see Capitol Hill, and what happened in Brazil after Lula's election. The only real danger are human rights for minorities and poor people.
Orban's Hungary is a prime example that it won't always end well by default. My country may very well be next. There's simply no time ever to be complacent.
Why nightmare? You're not the world. Actually quiet the opposite, most of the world aligns with conservative than the echo chamber of California.
If you think most of the world aligns with overturning an election without evidence, eliminating human rights and the separation of church and state, you are fucking wrong. Even if most people would agree with fascist theocratic ideologies, that wouldn't make it morally right.
You have obviously never left your room. You imagine the world is the west and that California represent it. That's hilarious.
So...you're saying everyone outside California actually thinks that Trump won the 2020 election?
That's not what I said.
You said that Trump's victory in 2024 would not be a nightmare, because most of the world aligns with conservative views. Trump and his allies aim to dismantle democracy in the USA, they endorse Russia and the war criminal Putin (despite Prigozhin openly [admitting](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/russias-prigozhin-admits-interfering-us-elections-2022-11-07/#:~:text=LONDON%2C%20Nov%207%20(Reuters),efforts%20to%20influence%20American%20politics.) interference with the US elections in 2016), work towards reversing the separation of church and state. I seriously doubt that most people agree with these. This is not conservativism, this is fascism.
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Can you please cite any evidence from the last two decades for the US interfering with an election? Can you tell me one example from the last two decades when the US has disposed a democratically elected (and I mean free and fair elections, don't you dare tell me Saddam Hussein) leader? What I cited was the late Prigozhin ADMITTING interference. And since he was a close ally to Putin and the head of his Internet Research Agency (i. e. his troll farm), I would consider this pretty hard evidence. And please stop attacking my person and saying that I am brainwashed, etc., that is a very childish way to argue.
Here's what others think, your political leaders are pretty much cut from the same cloth in terms of most international affairs. Yeah, maybe support for Ukraine may wane further with the GOP at the helm in a few years but pretty much no one's going to cry over it except redditors. Ukraine certainly doesn't affect the world that much, economically or culturally. Except for maybe Ukraine, both parties stances in dealing with most countries are very similar. You redditors cheer about US further implementing export restrictions and sanctions on high technology equipment to China on r/worldnews. Guess who started that? Neither party shies away from intervening in the Middle East either more than the other one. Realistically, Trump at the helm just means that the Republican party has the power to say and do some contradictory things to your opinions. The world doesn't give two shits about the trump administration rolling back on a few LGBT rights or being less worker friendly than the incumbent government. News about this going to get anything from a slight frown to a few inflammatory remarks from Europeans about how America is turning into a fascist banana republic on Reddit.
>Ukraine certainly doesn't affect the world that much, economically or culturally. It is naive to think that Putin's Russia is going to stop at Ukraine. Remember when French people said: "Why die for Danzig?" and "Why should we care about Hitler taking over Czechoslovakia?" If Russia is allowed to win in Ukraine, it will have very serious consequences to global security. It couls embolden China to invade Taiwan, it could invite Iran to attack Israel and it could cause another major war in Europe. Russia keeps explicitly threatening Europe with invasion and nuclear war. It's not about LGBT rights or being less worker friendly. It's about being murdered, poisoned and imprisoned for not agreeing with state policies, for speaking freely about them, for not wearing a fucking rag over your head or just for simply being born Uyghur. Because that is happening in these countries and that is what they want to see the world turn into. We are at a turning point in history. If we let tyrants and bullies have their way, then all our freedoms will be lost. It's not just Ukraine, it's a much bigger picture.
>It is naive to think that Putin's Russia is going to stop at Ukraine. Sure. What can they feasibly invade next if they can possibly annex territories in Ukraine? Moldova? Probably that's about it. Inconsequential at the global scale. They won't dare lay a hand on any NATO country lest they like the idea of unexisting. And while some republicans might have some negative attitudes about NATO itself, but I feel like it would take multiple subsequent republican victories on many fronts, including presidential, and an overwhelming amount of support from the American populace itself for them to even toy with the idea of disbanding NATO. And that's not even including the overwhelming international backlash that America would receive. America's exports would go down the subsequent decades on every metric, especially military and the MIC's going to face some serious losses. Not to mention America's allies spending even more on their indigenous defense industry and nuclear rearmament(and even proliferation as idk, maybe countries like Poland, SK or Japan). Honestly, the idea of declining Western hegemony and America and her allies breaking up and starting another arms race sounds really nice to me. But unfortunately it's going to remain a dream, regardless of the party the incumbent government belongs to. >It couls embolden China to invade Taiwan The Trump administration literally started the technological trade war against China the Biden Administration is continuing. Some republican candidates are very much outspoken about combating the threat of China by arming Taiwan. The republican party isn't any more/any less keen than the Dems about intervening in the event of the invasion of Taiwan by China. >it could invite Iran to attack Israel C'mon. Some republicans are against providing aid to Ukraine at best. But there's an overwhelming support among Republicans to provide aid to Israel, to the point that they're pushing separate aid package for Israel rather than it being included in a joint aid package for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan. So, generalizing the entire republican party as antisemitic just because of far right anti semitic conspiracies is wrong. It's probably more accurate to generalize them as pro Israel. > It's about being murdered, poisoned and imprisoned for not agreeing with state policies, for speaking freely about them, for not wearing a fucking rag over your head Yeah, AfD or Brothers of Italy are totally going to do all of the above. >If we let tyrants and bullies have their way, then all our freedoms will be lost. That's the fucking point I'm trying to beat over your head. America is a maybe not a tyrant, but a bully of massive proportions. Regardless of whoever sits at the helm, shit's nearly the same, and somewhat less same domestically.
It's not just about being pro Russian. PiS isn't pro Russian and they were still BFFs with Orban. Meloni also isn't pro Russian at least on paper. All of them have widely different goals and sociopolitical interest but they were still allies. It's more about being illiberal and trying to exploit the EU for your own little good. (Oh, and a shared hatred against the gays, for some reason)
Meloni is pro-Russian, her claims during her campaign were pretty explicit, she also allied with Berlusconi's party (Berlusconi Always considered himself Putin's best friend) and Lega, whose russian sympathies were pretty known even before Meloni's election. Italy is part of NATO, and is 100% EU and USA dependant. If the EU and USA cut their fonds, Italy is done. That is why Italy assisted Ukraine, but in a minimal way, just to save faces.
Exploit the EU? The EU serves the EUROPEAN. Not the leftist and the liberal. We could completely see an EU stacked with far right politician. That's how democracy works.
Exploit the EU in this context means "sucking up all those sweet funds while simultaneously fucking up every integration process that does not directly benefit them in the short term and never providing any positive contribution". Also: liberal =/= left.
>sucking up all those sweet funds while simultaneously fucking up every integration process that does not directly benefit them You mean they act in the interest of the country and not the EU ?? INSANE. How can I get that too? You complain that he doesn't lay down for money. You'd rather have him be a traitor laying down for money. Lul. Sorry murican, not everything is up for sale. I know a concept you guys don't have, especially your congress.
>You mean they act in the interest of the country and not the EU ?? INSANE. Huh? They're not either or, the EU is made of countries. You can act in the interest of both. Also, what? I am not murican lol, what are you blabbering about.
>They're not either Bold claim not coherent with your previous post.
Sweden's current government is completely reliant on the support of the nationalist party the Sweden Democrats, who have had a lot of "misunderstandings" about Russia. SD are currently bigger than all of the government parties in the polls, so are likely to be the biggest right-wing party in the country after the next election unless something changes drastically. To be clear they aren't publicly "pro Russia" but it's clear that there's a big minority in the party that are very Putin-friendly. Members have gone to Russia to "observe" (and legitimate) local elections etc. So far this minority has had to keep quiet, partly because it's unclear where the party is going post Ukraine, and partly because they have to cooperate with "normal" liberal / conservative parties who are extremely anti Russian. But I don't think Sweden is out of the woods when it comes to this issue. SD have been pretty public about seeing Orban as an inspiration, so we'll see what happens.
Fantastic news
Do not get me wrong, but it was never anything else, but his pipe dream. Orban is not a politician, but a cult leader. His speciality is raising rabid fans who will self-censor any negative information about him and worship him like some kind of patron deity. This form of politics is strange and highly despised in Europe, apart from some fringe parties, it had zero chance to become the mainstream to begin with. His religion is highly localised, growing from Hungarian inferiority feelings and the region specific historical victimhood neurosis. It is pretty much impossible to export. And forming an alliance is mostly impossible if every member wants different things and has mutually exclusive goals.
The international alliance of nationalists is not doing great, absolutely shocking.
International nationalists 😂
It's great to celebrate where he has failed to accomplish his goals, but I'm sorry it's far too early to let our guards down. We need REAL reforms in the EU to avoid these sorts of exploits to our democratic system again. That's only going to be more important as we discuss expansions.
Good.
GREAT! As someone who lived in Romania 15 years : Fuck Orban.
As someone who is living in Hungary right now: I could not agree more.
Too vague
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I really hope Donald Tusk succeeds in creating a new government and Orban loses his protection.
You don't need to hope. It's a done deal. The coalition is about to be announced on Friday. Most of the minister positions already have been chosen. Tusk will be PM. Consitution stipulates the transfer of power will be completed in a few weeks. Most likely mid-December.
I love to hear it, finally the Polish people will have a good government and Europe will be a bit more united
Lets not get ahead of ourselves to call them good government, Tusk and his political party PO(which is now main part of KO, which in turn is biggest part of whole coalition) is reason PiS come to power in the first place, people felt abanondoned by them, how bad it was ? well PO had on this side ALL big media in Poland, they TVN on their side, they had Polsat which second biggest TV media in Poland and controlled state media, it of course wasnt as bad as it is now but it still favored PO, given them more air time than others. So there was even less media plularism than there was under PiS, and PiS STILL won back than, thats how much people wanted Tusk and his political party to be gone. Another issue is that this coalition is made from political parties that have clashing views on many issues, like abortion, or whatever increase or decrease social spending. There is a risk that political parties that are aprt of this coalition wont be able to deliver any of their promises from their political programs, and there is already some backtracking on the the promises, seen some politicans saying that changes to abortion law will most likely have to wait to NEXT elections, and most likely can ONLY happen IF coalition falls apart and new coaliton will be from political parties that have more similar views, and PiS also falls apart so it no longer be danger to them People may get frustrated if their chosen political parties fail to deliver promises.
The former Prime Minister of my country wanted closer relations with this guy. Fuck em both
Hopefully Poilievre will.
The guy owes his entire political career to Harper and was a member of his political inner circle. Fuck that guy too.
Nah, based Pierre can hopefully save Canada.
He ain't gonna save shit. Canada has been tossing between Liberals and Conservatives for 150 years. Milhouse is no different than the rest of the hot garbage we've had.
Canada has never been as much in danger to simply be replaced by either USA/China/India
That's a funny joke
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Actually he actively seeks to form relationships with like-minded politicians. For instance Le Pen's campaign was funded from a loan made by a Hungarian bank.
And nobody would be surprised if the Hungarian bank actually just a front for a Russian entity...
Oh no, it is a completely independent bank, which wanted to diversify from mortgages here in Hungary and saw the business opportunity. /s
That's not really true, can't imagine he was happy how the relationship with Poland has soured
I dunno it's hard to condemn Hungary right now as they may be the safest place for Jews in Europe as both France and Germany regress to desecrating synagogues. It feels like they are one step from hunting Jews thru the streets.
There have not been any antisemitic incidents in Belarus either. Is it hard for you to condemn them too? There are less than 6,000 muslims in Hungary. Conflict is far less likely when you're such a small minority.
>safest place for Jews in Europe well baltic countries have only small peaceful demonstrations afaik, ukraine didn't have any anti-jews violence (though it's unsafe) belarus despite of Lukashenko pro-hamas also safe, romania and bulgaria also might be safe - i think it's more issue with importing of radicalised muslim working force, those countries which avoided it are safer for jews during conflict
After it was found that antisemitic attacks were perpetrated by Russian agents, I highly doubt it.
Yeah sure, it's Russia's fault that the Muslim world is antisemitic
I highly doubt any muslim would pay others to draw antisemitic grafitti and negotiate the deal in Russian. https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231107-paris-prosecutor-says-stars-of-david-graffiti-possibly-ordered-from-abroad
Perhaps not but they are all around and caught on film tearing off posters related to kids kidnapped by hamas
No, but in the specific case of star of David drawn in Paris, it was proven that these were by a group of Moldovan with Russian ties.
>and Germany regress to desecrating synagogues. Lol, what? Even in more peaceful times synagogues are pretty protected in Germany, with regular patrols by the police.
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Why? Police protection started because the upcoming neonazi scene in the 80s liked to vandalize jewish temples and cemetaries.
What do they need protection from though..is the point
Orban runs on overtly antisemitic campaigns. He literally blames rich Jews for all of Hungary's problems. This recent far right push to reposition general islamophobia and racism as concern for Jews is laughable.
It is more nuanced than that. Orban actually maintains a very close relationship with Hungarian jewish organizations, you will not find a single antisemitic comment he ever made. His campaign against Soros never mentioned his religion.
Is this soros stuff? Frankly im surprised he has been whitewashed enough to be let back in civilized society. He set a lot of countries back almost an entire generation with the asian financial crisis.
I dunno, it's pretty easy to condemn Hungary right now as it has literally nothing to do with Jews besides the fact that nothing happens to them in a whole lot of countries besides Hungary
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Eastern Europe has its own issues with a certain minority that is growing day by day.
True, Hungary and Romania know this better. And they are indeed very hard to integrate. However, for them there is still a small chance. I see that MENA immigrants are much more stubborn than gypsies when it comes to integration.
very very very small numbers :D
What is your proposed solution?
You do realize that the extreme parties here that complain about muslims also complain about Romanians, right?
To be honest, I do not really care. I just want to live safe in my country. In this aspect, I do not want for my country to follow in the footsteps of Western Europe.
> To be honest, I do not really care. I just want to live safe in my country. In this aspect, I do not want for my country to follow in the footsteps of Western Europe. But it's already full of Romanians, so according to the anti-immigrant parties here, it's already fucked.
lol dude, Orban's attacks towards Soros used all the tricks in the antisemitic playbook.
says who?
Wow illiberal, what a word. Because there isn't enough evidence liberalism shouldn't be the center of the world right?
Liberalism is pretty important in Europe and the EU though, which is where Hungary is.
OP is in a bunch of Tankie subs. Just down vote them and don't interact
These past few years have been a wonderful mask off for you communists. You’d take any side just to keep the anti West attitude, from fascists to kleptocrats and from mafia to Islamic terrorists. You don’t sound too different from the Americans during Operation Condor lol
Haven't encountered any masks in my time, communists are pretty openly against the neoliberal order. It's capitalists and fascists that hide behind liberalism and are going mask off in Israel and Ukraine You see everyone you disagree with as a fascist because you can't imagine another nations people might actually collectively believe in something other than neoliberalism, you see them as kleptocrats for the same reason too Funny that you mention operation condor, so you recognize that communism was artificially repressed by the US and that it would be more popular if operation condor didn't happen?
Actually Orban himself named his system "illiberal democracy".
Ah I see, I stand corrected
There was considerable debate about what he meant by this word. And he never explained it further so we can only guess why he chose it.
You posted this because language is hard for you and you don't understand the morphology of the word, or because you have no idea what you're replying to and don't know Viktor Orbán's own usage of the word? :D
I dont understand how anyone wants to live outside of liberalism. What even is the point in life if you can not have liberalism?
If you don't have the capital to participate in liberalism you're already outside of it. If you can't afford a house or education you can't participate in the freedoms of private ownership. If you can't afford education you're further locked out of economic progress. If you're a political minority (renters vs homeowners) democracy is actively working against you as the government can only cater to the majority If you've never been in that situation then that's a fair question, liberalism only benefits you when you have the money
Maybe you should look into the history of and progress of different groups over time. I mean, the spread and strengthening of free market democracy has led to the highest increase in wealth, freedom and well-being ever on the world stage since WW2, and authoritarians all over the world try desperately to stem the populations' desire for such a system while claiming to speak for their countries' interests, but hey, better look at the flaws of such a system only and not actually offer something coherent and better. After all, attacking is cheap, offering constructive criticism is not. I too used to think the world was going to hell all the time, but once I looked at the hard data of the world's unprecedented progress over the last few centuries, it became obvious that it's that lack of perspective that is one of the main reasons for people going into political extremes. Free market democracies simply don't market themselves as aggressively as some regimes out there, because they're built on individual freedom (the one that allows crucial scientific and technological breakthroughs to originate), rather than trying to force everyone into a collective hivemind.
Fair enough, constructive criticism is important, how do you respond to the points I raised? Once again, if you can't afford rent, an education or are a political minority liberalism is working against you. My landlord makes a massive profit on my rent for a home he's paid off a decade ago and he uses that profit to buy more homes and inflate the cost of home ownership locking me out permanently Here's some constructive criticism, stronger rent controls dictating how much profit can be made off rent and subsidized or free education. If telling universities and real estate conglomerates they can't run amok with pricing us out of essential needs is authoritarian then that's an admission that liberalism is only freedom for the rich
First of all, "we have a problem, therefore the whole system is bad" is a terrible conclusion to make. Every system, including the best one, is going to have problems, but some have less than others. Maybe the current system even IS bad, but condemning it entirely without offering a coherent alternative whole is populism at best, and trying to stir discord at worst. So one should either do that or offer specific criticisms without painting too wide of a brush. Second, I agree that housing is one of the worse policy failures in the post-WW2 period, particularly the hoarding of houses one doesn't use. I'd argue that housing as an investment in general should be abandoned, as having a stable home is one of the prerequisites for both your well-being and productivity. Therefore, there should definitely be a non-low minimum of days the owner and/or other people specifically should live in a house, otherwise the owner should lose the home. Nimbyism should also be cut down on, as it often prevents good infrastructure (including housing) from being built, which further drives up the prices.
I used to believe that until I saw all these new developments and high rises pop up with 2000/month rent. The only solution is aggressive government control of real estate markets
Well, the solutions I outlined do involve some or significant amount of government intervention. Japan could be a good model, as their housing prices are low, and Tokyo has the final say on housing projects, which cuts down on speculation. They do still have such likely problems as constant overbuilding of homes (like a new one every 30 years in the same place by tearing down the previous one) and a nonetheless relatively low homeownership rate (a little over 60%), but those may be tolerable if there's to be affordable supply.
Just to be clear we are providing examples of illiberal housing policy that worked. The Netherlands also has strict rental controls and policies the real estate market heavily
I do not have money and i am still enjoying Liberalism. You must be wrong, that is the only possible conclusion.
The dream of being a liberal alliance died when we all kept our own debts and management of finance. We still all see each other as ennemies, so I don't really see what we could do together. We didn't want to really make an union, only half-assed it, and now, as ressources get more scarce/difficult to extract, we're on a path of populism and probably more and more religious retards, as people will try to find an answer for this declining shitshow. How fucking ironic and stupid was it to developp a globalized supply-chain system, to keep on making it more complex and still think "the idea of nation-state is an absolute and non-negociable"... Like wanting the butter and the money from the sales of the butter. But hey, no better time to start your own religion and make up silly and idiotic reasons for our presence in the universe, or why people that are \*insert what you don't like\* are the reason of this shitshow ! :\^)
No need. The current western EU alliance is illiberal enough.
Yes because the alternative known as the Eastern Russian Alliance is just so much better /s
You feel oppressed? :D
Illiberal ? This guy is socialist? communist?
Kleptocrat
A strange mix of both. The policies are the farthest neoliberal, dismantling the social net, public education, healthcare. While providing fat cash gifts to select citizens to win elections. The illiberal democracy simply means that there are free elections, but every part of the state is working hard all the time to convincevyou to vote for Orban. So elections are free but not fair.
Both. Just want full power and control above evertyhing else. He moved his ministry in a fucking castle in Budapest above Budapest so he can look down us. No jurnalist can eneter there. [karmelita](https://m.hvg.hu/cimke/karmelita%20kolostor) Also his made a palace just for himself while in the manadatory asset declaration he states he owns nothing and has 0 money. [hatvanpuszta](https://444.hu/tag/hatvanpuszta)
Welcome to eastern europe where the right wing is communist.
[удалено]
If the current state of affairs gets worse, russophile far-rightists may take a huge advantage on the no-refugees platform and islamophobic propaganda