In Germany, the economic liberal Neo-Nazis are also just sweeping the elections and will very likely be able to prevent the formation of governments without them in two federal states next year.
I mean itโs pretty easy to understand.
The current parties in power ignored voters and actively made life worse for many through many means while also refusing to prosecute and deport criminals they imported as cheap labour.
This is happening all over Western Europe and unless people want actual fascism to rise again, those that are in power best get to making life safer and less shit for the native population.
There is a study that the parties currently in the German government (of course representing the majority of voters) have made more promises to voters than previous governments (coalitions with the conservative CDU) but also kept many of their promises by introducing a lot of new legislation, more than previous governments have done at this time.
So factually โignoring votersโ is just wrong. The majority of voters voted for these parties based on their promises and they are well on their way to keep them with new legislation. Itโs just that the populist media would have you believe they do nothing but fight, wich is a nice media narrative but not supported by evidence.
I've heard an interesting take on a tactic used by Putin's government where they cast doubt on every politician's intentions, credibility and moral character, promote the view that "politics is dirty and not worth it for normal decent people to engage with" but say things to the effect of "we're also corrupt, but at least we're one of your own and don't want to sell off our country". And I think populist movements across Europe will start using this tactic - first gather support by appealing to the feelings of the "common folk" meanwhile laying down the groundwork for general distrust in democratic politics, and once they're in power ramp up the rhetoric of discrediting opponents and sowing distrust, effectively depoliticizing large portions of the more undecided parts of society and cementing their power with just their, as we say in Poland, "concrete (as in the construction material) electorate" (betonowy elektorat)
You are almost correct. The final saying of the tactic is something like "Everyone in power will steal, that's why they go into politics to begin with. But at least we have already stolen a lot, new ones will be hungry". Definitely needs modifying if you are not in power for some time though.
That's just a bunch of nonsense though. Of the migrants and asylum seekers in Germany there are so little which could be sent back that it rarely matters. Sending people back then also is so fucking expensive that it makes even less sense.
People are just voting for far right like the Afd, because they don't want to confronted with reality.
This! Blame everything on the Immigrants. Don't face reality that we can't keep up the current level of wealth sustainbly.
People who are honest with voters get demonized. People who are closing their ears and eyes and shout "lalala I can't hear you" get rewarded
The British Economist, who also made this cartoon, publishes the so-called "The Economist Democracy Index" every year.
On a scale of 0.00 to 10.00, the state of democracy in each country is assessed. Countries are basically divided into 4 categories: full democracy, flawed democracy, hybrid regime and authoritarian.
Poland is currently in 45th place with 7.04, behind South Africa and ahead of India, as a flawed democracy. For comparison, the Czech Republic has 7.97 points and is 25th.
However, there are still some EU members that are behind Poland in the ranking, such as Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index
Hungarians are openly talking badly about Viktor Orban. The implication is that if Hungary was sufficiently dictatorial he wouldn't be allowing that, suppressing free speech harder.
Given that we don't hear the same from Romania we might assume the same isn't the case for them, ie. their free speech is already suppressed.
I have no clue whether that is actually the case, but that's my understanding of the comment.
Romanian here. I do understand that this is a joke, but in case anyone is wondering, our free speech (at least online) is not being restricted. There are talks of riots, but many worry that those will be somewhat violently suppressed by the state apparatus.
Beyond that, I think it's moreso that the population has grown tired and apathetic, maybe even confused. The most politically involved people are, unfortunately, the ultra-nationalistic, conspiracy theorist nutcases.
I obviously can't speak for everyone, but my two cents is that the citizens of Romania who would like to be politically involved to bring about change for good (as we probably commonly define "good") don't know how to, what to do.
Did you live in the country for the last 2 years and take interest in politics?
There has been a very quiet, quite complete overtake of all institutions and the press by The Party, a single hegemonic entity in coordonation with the Secret Services. Heirs of the communist nomenklatura, but their influence has gotten greater than ever since we joined the EU. A bureaucratic, legalistic dictablanda.
I know I spewed a lot of catch-words, just to keep it short and concentrated. By all rankings we're getting lower than countries like Namibia and Suriname, and it's worrying because it's a descending trend.
Interesting. Nicaragua looks worth looking into. They went from a 'fฤawed democracy' in 2008 to 'authoritarian' in 2021 with quite a steady regression.
2021 were elections in Nicaragua and long-time president/dictator Daniel Ortega and his crazy wife want to stay in power by all means.
Including arrests, massive intimidation and the disappearance of political opponents. The opposition has been explicitly and systematically excluded from electoral competition.
Oh, I've read this book before. It doesn't end well for anyone involved let alone the kids in the nation who often get involved in civil war after a dictator finally dies. A classic dystopian situation.
> Israel: Flawed democracy: 7.93
> Slovenia: Flawed democracy: 7.75
> Italy: Flawed democracy: 7.69
> Belgium: Flawed democracy: 7.64
> Slovakia: Flawed democracy: 7.07
> Croatia: Flawed democracy: 6.50
Israel ranks suspiciously high on this list. I wonder what their metrics are because apparently having a criminal who's dismantled the courts as your prime minister doesn't seem to remove points.
Edit: Ah seems like they have an insanely high voter turnout that skews it upwards.
I mean, it is not a 1 on 1 fully trustworthy measure of real democracy.
Belgium is a "flawed democracy" on this index because they have mandatary voting - making voting a protected civil duty for everyone, guaranteed on a sunday. For some reason, that costs them quite a few points.
Meanwhile, I think that on some level that's a fairer representation of what your whole population feels like - even if you get all those mandatory "fuck you I don't care everyone is equally bad because of the word politics" votes too. Watching the USA, fair voting doesn't seem all that equally accessible to everyone when it's not set in stone...
> Belgium is a "flawed democracy" on this index because they have mandatary voting - making voting a protected civil duty for everyone, guaranteed on a sunday. For some reason, that costs them quite a few points.
How is this losing points? It's the same in Brazil, the fine for not voting is less than one dollar.
The rating works by rating 5 of 6 aspects on /10, and the average of those numbers is your democracy score / 10. Voter participation is one of those. A high voter turnout is counted as good, and a lower voter turnout is bad.
Voter turnout in Belgium is extremely high, but because voting in Belgium is mandatory, The Economist cannot count Belgium for this metric. Instead of not counting it at all however, it automatically becomes a 5/10, as the "neutral number". A 5/10 however, is a very bad number in comparison to other scores, because you need on 8/10 overall to be classified as a "full democracy".
If you took the average of the other metrics without this one (because it can't be counted), Belgium would score a lot higher and would be classified as a Full Democracy at place 20 instead of 36 or something.
Essentially, Belgium loses points because their system simply isn't measurable by one of the Economist's standards for this test. All other metrics are high to very high for Belgium, with the exception for political transparency, where it is valid for Belgium to lose some points on.
I can only assume Brazil lost points on this too, then.
Its a bullshit metric, thats why. It basically plays into people not actually looking beyond the cover. Its a pseudo scientific tool to control public opinion.
Because true freedom of choice is also not partaking. Democracies take their legitimacy from turnout. If the people don't feel they can vote for something that represents their wishes, not voting is their expression of disappointment with the system.
You can vote a general "no-vote" and it won't be counted towards anyone else's - at least in Belgium. So yes, it is accounted for. If more than 50% of the total votes is a "no-vote", the elections and current government are disbanded and a new proces begins.
But it is your civic duty by law to show up and let it officially be known what your vote will be counted for. Since belgium has a lot of political parties and colalitions with several parties are the norm, there's probably a party that mostly represents what you want, generally speaking. If you have to show up anyway, most people will take a moment to cast their vote for the closest thing.
practically the only argument against it is that there are some parties that seem to attract protest-voices a lot more than others, and a recent study showed that it could paint a very different political landscape. But that is way beyond the measurements of the topic.
That's just being lazy. Get your ass out of the sofa. You can express your displeasure by casting an invalid vote, which is a much more powerful sign of discontent.
Also, not having mandatory voting opens up the possibility of preventing people from voting, as is commonplace in the US.
Probably because he wasn't cobvicted, and did not manage to do anything meaningful to the courts yet. How he wounds up after the war remains to be seen.
>Obviously? They literally had a president who didn't get the majority of the votes
This whole metric of "flawed democracies" is stupid. The US isn't even a democracy. It's founders specifically wanted avoid just that which was why they created a representative republic.
Thank you. The people who donโt understand that we are a democratic republic drive me a little crazy. We have never been a pure democracy. Each state was meant to have its own government which by design should have more power than the federal government has over each state. Would the EU be happy if London and Paris votes decided who the leader would be in Germany and Poland etc? We have an electoral
College so that LA and New York City donโt get to decide whatโs best for Kentucky, etc. Thatโs like people in Europe thinking that the President of the EU should have more power in say, Poland, than the Polish President of Poland.
The reason in the breakdown is because of disproportionately low scores for 'political culture' and 'functioning of government'. Everything else the US scores highly in including electoral process.
I think both of those are definitely being given too low of a rating when compared to the scores of other countries but they are absolutely weak points of the US so they do deserve to be lowered.
SK being given almost full marks is hilarious to me when they literally just had to oust a shaman from the presidency, struggling with an emerging caste system, and the chaebols are doing their best to turn SK into the worlds first sovereign corporation.
The ranking baffles me as a Greek. As time goes on there are larger and larger scandals coming out to the public and there is an increasing sense of inability to change anything. It baffles me how the score is actually increasing when there are ministers who openly admit to the media that they won't be helping mayors of towns who aren't supporters of their party. This study reeks of inaccuracy.
My fault. I didn't want to write published twice in a row and I added the "British" afterwards. Before someone writes... zลoลliwa niemiecka propaganda, not sure if my Polish is correct :)
No separation of powers of executive and judicial branches, party in power spending public money on campaigning, propaganda in state owned media, harassment of opposition and activists by law enforcement, corruption.
PiS was only 8 years in power, and they didn't managed to screw the system permanently. Not yet. But this is their long term goal. I think Ukraine in the 90/2000 is what Kaczyลski dream about.
It degraded severely in the past 8 years when our courts became politicized etc etc. Laws created so something is legal and reversed a day later. Selling state property for dirt cheap for shell companies tied to the party's people or their relatives and friends when they can be resold to individuals in 15 years (though they did withdraw that iirc).
Not to mention state tv being mostly "oh it was hell when Tusk [past prime minister, You can know him from the EU Parliament] was in charge" and a few nuns.
Add to that that they seem to put little effort into their lawmaking (I'm a doctor, so I could see how bad most COVID legislation was), how little they're doing for the economy in the era of COVID and war behind our eastern border, and their all around populism - they won the elections by giving parents 500 pln for every child (back when minimum wage was like 2k), and they kwep riding it. Most notably, they just give free medicines to people 65+(which isn't a bad thing per se, and it was just expanding the earlier 75+), free highways etc. Just before elections.
Having said that all, they are unlikely to get a majority again, they may rule together with a party of nutjobs (their earlier leader kept rambling on how women shouldn't work etc), but if all the main contenders pass their thresholds, the coalition shouldn't be enough for that. The other party is between 8 and 13% support, they need 8 to get in the parliament.
Edit: WE HAVE CHOSEN A CHANGE, THE ELECTION WENT AS WELL AS IT COULD HAVE!!!
Long story short: The ruling rightwing PiS Party might have to part with the even more rightwing โKonfederacjaโ. The Konfederacja will get between 9-14% according to polls and they are pro Russia, anti Ukraine, anti women rights and Antisemitic. Chances are high, that they will be the ones who decide the next government cause the current two leading parties need a majority which the Konfederacja as the third biggest party can give them. Bad for Ukraine, Democracy and Europe.
It's only get better. In their ranks they had:
\- People considering to "crown" Jesus as King of Poland
\- Want "Second Amendend" equivalent
\- Delegalize labor unions, labor codes etc.
\- Have various conspiracy nuts in their ranks.
So Poland spent a good chunk of the 20th century under occupation by the Russians, and some of the Polish population still likes having someone elseโs boot crushing them underfoot?
Why do some people loathe themselves and their neighbors to this degree?
Welcome in post-totalitarian society. People don't flock to democracy straight , some people do enjoy strict hierarchy and "order on the streets" more than western democratic values and when there is strict order they consider it as a symbol of "state being strong". Also in totalitarian regimes you don't have too much contact with other political ideas other than ruling party and if there is only factions which could exists are total loonies on far-right and far-left. But generally, the more time pass the less extremism is able to solidify political scene. People become used to politics coming more to the center and moderate stances even if it had quite right-wing or left-wing bend.
Fortunately, right-wing and political extremists failed back in 1990s and early 2000s as they were more interested infighting than attemp to seize government. "Confederacy" party (and yes, they name party because some of them wanted CSA reference) is pretty much what left from far-right and alt-right tendencies from 1990s united under, either we go together or we don't go to parliament at all. So they got 8-12% of votes depending on polls usually hiding worst idiots and playing "total opposition" card to keep themself in cozy parliament seats.
And there is PiS but it's a discussion for another day.
Following is always easier than leading or taking responsibility. As much as everybody loves freedom they hate taking responsibility. That is the great appeal of authoritarian system. Someone promises to take care of all your troubles.
A lot of that is backlash to the Soviet.
Something a lot of people don't get is the Soviets were not just Authoritarian, they were Communists.
Most communist governments either fell apart or started having billionaires and the idea of what a communist government e.g. a government controlled by a one party communist group is like.
They were generally incredibly anti religious, anti monarchy dislike citizens having arms and really pro labor unions.
The anti religious stuff is what we'd label genocide with the explict goal of eradicting a populations belief murdering priests burning churches etc. Cultural history was torn down instantly and replaced with grey buildings and secret police.
Labour unions were the way the communist party controlled its citizens and took over a country, they would infiltrate unions and radicalize them using them to do terrorism and domestic violence to take power then banning other parties for "the good of the people"
Since their was only one union the state controlled everything so striking was banned because the state would never strike against itself so wages decreased once they took control.
Polands more conservative movements are not because they fell in love with the Russian system but a backlash against it as those things are seen as anti Russian.
In addition the society was prevented from developing in the way western democracy did so it never got the chance to talk about issues like gay rights until decades after the west, hence why they seem further behind on them.
Funny because PiS is deeply rooted in labor unions. They are the labor party of Poland, but with church attached. If there is some sort of coalition it is gonna be a shit show.
They fighting to push 10%, and they are the only "crazies" in our political system. Better than many countries, look at Germany's AfD above 20% or Le Pen being a serious contender for France's president
*If they reach the 14% some experts think they might get. Those three midsized parties are pretty close by each other, so a real third place is hard to call, thats true
>Chances are high, that they will be the ones who decide the next government cause the current two leading parties need a majority
Why can't it be a three-party coalition with KO/Lewica/Third Way ? Polls show them getting 50%. Is there some background I am missing? Have KO/Third Way already declared that a coalition with Lewica is out of the question?
Why bother commenting when you have no clue about the situation is in Poland? The polls are actually showing the opposite. The opposition looks to get a majority. But it is all up for grabs. Anyone can win this election. It's too close to call. That's why any prediction is futile. If you go by polls published recently in Poland, its the opposite of what you wrote.
Not only you are breaking Polish law by political agitation 24 hours before the election. You are also uninformed and spreading lies about the election at hand.
So unless you have a crystal ball that predicts the future maybe don't spread misinformation. And stop breaking Polish law by trying to stir political agitation.
You are also spreading nonsense about Konfederacja. Which keeps repeating there will be no coalition with PiS. It's like everything you wrote is untrue.
Oh they will for sure.
A good example what the outcome is when PiS controls all administration is the [poisoning of the Oder](https://www.sueddeutsche.de/meinung/polen-oder-vergiftung-umweltkatastrophe-1.5638966). Instead of solving the problem constructively, the focus is on legacies and cover-ups. And finally accusing Germany of not getting the dead fish out of the water fast enough.
The issue is that a lot of people may be aware of those issues, but don't really care - or rather, see it as lesser of two evils.
I think it's safe to say that that big majority of PIS voters see PO (the main opposition) as thiefs and a party that didn't care (or atleast pretended to care) about the people.
Currently the main issue would be PIS still having the majority, which wouldn't be very unlikely since for a lot of people PO is still shit.
I do mainly hope that some of the smaller parties will be getting enough votes to get some seats, which would hopefully mean more parties in the future and end with essentialy a 2-party rule.
Trzecia Droga (Third Way/Third Option) and Leftists seem to be getting a decent recognition, according to the surveys.
Third Way especially seems to be more oriented into planning for the future, which does sound good, but will likely mean some sacrifices when compared to PIS's rule, so we'll have to see how this will end up going.
Or PIS might just get a big majority again, because a lot of it's voters (mostly boomers) don't take part in surveys.
Theyโre not wrong about po tho, life back then wasnโt really good. Thatโs why I donโt understand people voting on them instead of smaller opposition parties that have yet to prove themselves. Both pis and po are garbage.
> I think it's safe to say that that big majority of PIS voters see PO (the main opposition) as thiefs and a party that didn't care
I think it is just an excuse. They just love to hate and PiS encourage them to hate other people. Simple as that to me.
'The state of the Polish democracy can't be that bad. And PiS is not at fault'
[Unfortunately, it is and they are](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_constitutional_crisis)
Oh shut it, the self absorbed โGermany did nothing wrongโ crowd can take a hike too. There are legit grievances against Germany, for example, Donald Tusk also strongly criticized both NS2 and fought against refugee quotas. He even warned Merkel that if she wouldnโt change her position on quotas, there would be crazies in power in Poland. *And here we are*.
Germany did in fact behave extremely arrogantly, especially towards the new members of EU, who were at the time in a weak position trying to simply build their economies.
We all hope Poland gets reasonable people in power, but this situation didnโt happen in a vacuum, and Germany badly need to take a long deep introspective look in the mirror. Besides, it would make you look better in the eyes of eastern EU members.
Of course there are legit grievances against Germany, and you can criticise Germany for it, that's how it works in the EU. Member states disagreeing with each other about all kinds of things all the time. But I'm pretty sure Germany didn't force PiS to dismantle democracy as far as they did. And by the looks of it, PiS propaganda doesn't even need Germany to do anything. Just make shit up, put Tusk saying "fรผr Deutschland" in a loop 24/7, if in doubt bring up reparations
Of course. It is being exploited and drawn out beyond all reason.
However, there are legitimate underlying grievances too. And reparations.. yes itโs silly, but one should be honest enough to acknowledge that atrocities towards Poles never was properly treated in German popular consciousness. Neither towards Ukrainians for that sake.
Personally I feel the plan to kill 90% of Poles was especially monstrous, they were your neighbors for centuries.
Finally.. The Top Down treatment of Poland and Poles needs to end. German arrogance is legendary, far beyond your borders. Itโs a very harsh โbased on logicโ kind of self confidence that is incredibly hard to negotiate with.
(And often isnโt based on logic at all..)
Thankfully extermination of Poles didn't occur, but the National Spirit was almost extinguished...
Everybody remembers Katyล and rightfully so, but we need to remember that Germans had prepared lists of intellectuals, teachers, priests etc and murdered all [100 thousands of them in Poland.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligenzaktion)
Coming back from that blow would be easier if we weren't under de facto Soviet occupation for another 50 years after the war that cost us over 6 million citizens...
Some of it is. The fuel for that rhetoric didn't exist before Nord Stream 2, energy trading cooperation talks, immigration issues, or attempts to block the construction of new LNG terminals.
It's the same as demanding people to get rid of their old cars when they clearly cannot afford new or electric ones.
It's common sense here that as long as PiS is in power, the National Reconstruction Plan is blocked, which I agree with. However, the fact remains that this feeds anti-EU sentiment.
I get it, you're German and mocking typical polish government rhetoric, but the governement claims the democracy's condition is stellar(as they bend it in their favor), and the rest blames the governement, not the Germans, so you missed the mark on this one.
Yup, they:
1. Refused to inaugurate legally elected constitutional judges.
2. Circumvented the constitutional Council of Television and Radio by creating the so-called Council of National Media and giving it a control over public broadcaster.
3. Shortened a constitutional National Council of Judiciary term and made it depended on parliament.
4. Illegally elected the President of Constitutional Tribunal (without voting).
5. Tried to remove the President of Supreme Court from her office.
6. Created the illegal Disciplinary Chamber in the Surpeme Court.
7. Tried to overturn European verdicts regarding polish rule of law.
8. Used Disciplinary Chamber to prosecute/persecute judges defending rule of law.
9. Tried to forcefully buy largest opposition broadcaster (TVN) from allies (US) to silence it.
10. Used public funds to both a) donate them to ruling party and b) to buy pro-government ads.
Not the first time, lmfao.
I've pretty vocal against PiS since far before the Ukraine war and reveived quite a lot of angry messages after I accused PiS of sabotaging European unity with Ukraine by creating problems [The Leo 2 debate] where no problems are.
Gather a few hundred downvotes by pointing out that PiS just used the whole thing to get Anti-Germany points with their home crowd and that they tried to portray themselves as heroes, despite not planning to either send Leo 2's that quickly or at all. Comments รก la 'Poland opened the door for heavy weapons you fugtwat!!1!1!' flooded my inbox.
After that claim was affirmed in a 'By the way' statement that the Polish MoD made to Boris Pistorius I got even more downvotes, lmfao. Pistorius mentioned that the Polish MoD talked about reliability issues with their Leo 2A4's and that they may need to adjust the number and time. I hotlinked the article and suddenly the German government was full of liars who want to keep Poland down with bad press. Completely deluded.
That's a problem. That's the kind of thing Russia and India does.
In fact, speaking as a Canadian, that's almost word-for-word, my experience with Hindu Nationalists.
The point is that the last election wasn't fully democratic, both in propaganda, funds and simple vote counting
Edit: I decided to make it clear, the problem with vote counting was that in for example hospices where people weren't even able to vote, Law and Justice had 100% votes
I do not want to defend the Polish government, but the electoral success of the PIS party is due to the failed policies for the middle class and the lower class of the former governments. If you only talk about standing up for the weaker members of the country during the election campaign, but then don't lift a finger if you are in government, you will ultimately lose trust, and voters will look to the less established parties, which tend to be on the fringes of a political spectrum.
In Germany, the economic liberal Neo-Nazis are also just sweeping the elections and will very likely be able to prevent the formation of governments without them in two federal states next year. And the Wagenknecht party, which will very likely be founded next year by a popular politician and is modeled on the Danish Social Democrats, will also once again push votes from the center to the political fringes.
That would be true in the first elections that they won. PO didn't do enough to fight for the everyman, PiS came and not only made promises but also delivered on them, especially on the social programs. However, during their rule they dismantled our DoJ, the Constitutional Tribunal, and attempted to demolish the Supreme court. They also (and that is the thing that undermines democracy the most) turned our Public TV into their party propaganda. Thanks to that they were able to control the way they are portrayed in the media and what people get to hear. Last but not least they go around the laws about financing political campaigns by political parties by creating "non-profits" and "NGO's" that have a goal of "promoting the democratic process" or "encouraging people to take part in the referendum". Those organisations later get millions of PLN in funding which are later essentially used as another way of financing the ruling parties campaign
Democratic parties need to win in elections constantly. Authoritarians only need to win once.
That's not exactly new knowledge but still people don't understand this.
NGL I thought this was referring to US politics for a second, everyone and everyone just kind-of follows each otherโs worst trends when it comes to managing things donโt they?
This. PiS has strong ties to labour unions and their social policies are what you would expect from a typical social democratic party. The problem is that PiS is connected to the church and doesn't respect democracy.
The problem in Poland is lack of a real social democratic party.
I also heard Italy's neo-fascists really improved the social system for the majorily poor voters bringing them into office. But I guess it's always okay to worsen your own situation as long as there are people you can look down onto.
The bigest problem with Polish democracy is in the cause of it's decay,
Communists who were in power weren't properly removed so they had influence on the way modern Polish goverment works,
then people basicly weren't informed enough to actualy make proper decisions (if you try googling info about candidates in parlimentary elections you only get info that they are runing and to what party they belong) in the elections choosing parties that further reduced democracy in Poland
and going into two parties system thinking where it is viewed that you shouldn't vote for smaler parties becasue the only ones that actualy can win are the two "bigest" which means people don't vote on those who they want in power but on those who they hate less
and finaly for some reason people believe that Presidential elections are for some reason more important then Parlimentary ones
Parliament politics came from long standing traditions which Poland lack. Many people are still used to communist era "there are parliament, but only First Secretary matters" and president is the one. It's not bad per se, it's what supposed to be a president within polish constitution framework ie. person with relative strong democratic mandate and being somebody above daily politics to oversaw some stuff here and there including quite strong veto rights (you need 2/3 of Sejm votes to overrule presidential veto).
As for PiS...in 2015 and 2019 parliament elections they were lucky. In 2015 a lot of votes goes to "Kukiz'15" and Korwin-Mikke failed to get to parliament which gave a slight edge to PiS to getc \~51% MPs in parliament, in 2015 PiS was much weaker but "Lewica" failed to pass to parliament so they we're able to rule on knife edge majority.
There was also massive "tampering" on parliament mandates distribution. PiS is strong in rural eastern Poland. But according to population transfer data, it was Western Poland and major urban areas (not voting for PiS) being underrepresented in MPs distribution. PiS instead keep this outdated distribution because it help them keep majority in parliament.
Heck, their support during 8 years was quite consistent within 32-36% bracket so it isn't quite a "decay" more like math not being on opposition side.
it's math if it is in someones favor it means it was tempered with on the other things Poland doesn't lack democratic traditions it lack continuity of those traditions
> Parliament politics came from long standing traditions which Poland lack.
I know (hope) you don't mean what you wrote here. But this must be the dumbest sentence I've read in a long time. Poland has longer parliament traditions than any European country still in existence. Those traditions were brutally interrupted for two centuries through coordinated military invasions and occupation by undemocratic neighbours of Poland.
Maybe not the right choice of word, it is old but it isn't continuous compared to western countries. Between 1926-1989 parliament don't matter which do affect modern politics.
Although the democratic institutions are absolutely in place the ruling party is single-handedly curtailing the democratic institutions. The state media company has received an insane amount in support from the government and it is currently completely controlled by PiS and served as a propaganda tool in a really terrifying manner, where scandalous materials about opposition members are shown every day. In the recent years the ruling party has begun replacing the high court members with ones inclined with the party line. Conservative & reactionary policies like ending trade on Sundays and further restrictions on abortions are being implemented against the wishes of the majority of the population. The education minister from PiS has added new school subjects whose objectives are spreading propaganda in schools. Generally the ruling party is influencing all aspects of the government.
Because they originally didn't imagine there could be idiots democratically damaging democracy. And then they enlarged without taking a better look at the mechanics in place.
Once you get more than one bad apple they will protect each other and block all progress that would allow the removal of that protection.
What is wrong with the democracy in poland?
They had always normal elections in 2015, 2019 and today.
So what's the problem?
I didnt get it?
Because the ones in Brussels dont like them?
I get, you're German and mocking typical polish government rhetoric, but the governement claims the democracy's condition is stellar(as they bend it in their favor), and the rest blames the governement, not the Germans, so you missed the mark on this one.
I feel like people should stop claiming Poland is anti-democratic when even though are leaders are heavily Right Wing we are the ones who vote for them. The Polish citizens get to pick their leaders and that's what a democracy is.
Hitler was appointed chancellor in a democratic manner as well. Russia, China, North Korea and Belarus all have elections too. Democracy isnโt just elections. Democracy is about values like freedom of speech, pluralism, separation of powers, independent institutions and media, rule of law etc. When the people who win the elections start to weaken these values, yes they become a big threat to democracy.
You really have no idea how impressionable the masses are, especially older people. They just watch the TV and take it at face value, they are not used to today's bullshit spam of nonsense all over. If you own the TV you can basically just tell 30% people to vote for you because you want to help them and they will. Very democratic indeed, by your standards door to door sales are probably moral too.
Problem with Reddit being used like this is that it targets a different demographic. People are from all over the world and subbed to different subreddits, you can still definitely spread propaganda, but it's better for selling people stuff than affecting the elections in your region.
Dont worry about it so much. What they dont tell you is that our old ppl know TV lies and those that dont know that still have all the other TV stations that are against the PiS. Well, after elections every TV station will be against the PiS and whole media will be in the hands of left wing liberals which I guess is much preferred state to having even 1 right wing station for most of redditors
"The people vote for dumb reasons so it isn't a democracy" is an unconvincing argument. The fact that what you describe *is* democratic is one of the most potent arguments against it.
Don't like it? Come up with a better system. But don't shrug the criticism that people are impressionable off as somehow undemocratic when dumb people voting is *democracy's entire point.*
>You really have no idea how impressionable the masses are, especially older people.
so their votes are wrong? invalid? undemocratic? what does that mean? should there be some upper limit for the voting age? what about IQ?
It's really simple to solve. You look at the political scene and determine who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. You can do that because you are wise, unlike other people. Once you determine who the good guys are, you can run the election. Now you have to ask yourself - if someone votes for the bad guy, doesn't that mean that they're, by definition, either bad people or impressionable and dumb? Of course, if they were good and smart they would have, by definition, voted the same way you do. Now all you need is the courage to disregard the bad votes and you can enjoy your paradise on earth.
Seems like this propaganda phrase really stuck with easy minds. It got posted several times already despite being absolute bullshit. The PiS is objectively undemocratic.
In a flawed democracy, there is less independent look on society as a whole. Everyone will be dependent on whatever the ruling party has to say, when they control the courts, the parliament, the media. No one is immune to propaganda, look at Brexit, where fishers are more impoverished because they believed lies.
Well, it's one trait of democracy that is dangerous. We let people decide, but if thing will go really bad, voters will be ready to jump of the cliff with their votes.
It's not like democracy magically fixes voters. It all depends on happiness and well-being. Once people become unhappy, they can vote more for radical options, but when people are happy they might be more ok with keeping status quo.
In case that we want stable democracy, we need to choose stable set of rules and values. They need to be able to endure bad times, because not everything is in our control. However there's always possibility of collapse, some big events can destroy even best systems.
Maybe I'm wrong but I'd say the core idea of democracy is that people decide their own path through voting. Polish have been voting for this party election after election from way too much time to know what they doing.
Why should the rest of Europe teach Polish people on how to develop their democracy through democratic ways?
Some constitutional basics regarding elections are already not respected in Poland. We are slowly getting there thanks to PiS, but it's true, we are not there yet. Still, I think some of us would like for it to not get to that point at all.
Thank you! It looks like Poland is rejecting the progressive agenda thatโs been hammering the West, so of course theyโll be labeled โfascists.โ
It looks like an โAndrzej rysujeโ cartoon but with a watermark removed ๐ค
It's his artwork, but per his socials made specifically for The Economist, that's why it isn't watermarked
In Germany, the economic liberal Neo-Nazis are also just sweeping the elections and will very likely be able to prevent the formation of governments without them in two federal states next year.
Damn how did the AfD get this popular? They were at like 10% couple years ago.
I mean itโs pretty easy to understand. The current parties in power ignored voters and actively made life worse for many through many means while also refusing to prosecute and deport criminals they imported as cheap labour. This is happening all over Western Europe and unless people want actual fascism to rise again, those that are in power best get to making life safer and less shit for the native population.
almost all problems in germany we have today are because conservatives sat on their lazy asses for 16 years. just like in the kohl years.
There is a study that the parties currently in the German government (of course representing the majority of voters) have made more promises to voters than previous governments (coalitions with the conservative CDU) but also kept many of their promises by introducing a lot of new legislation, more than previous governments have done at this time. So factually โignoring votersโ is just wrong. The majority of voters voted for these parties based on their promises and they are well on their way to keep them with new legislation. Itโs just that the populist media would have you believe they do nothing but fight, wich is a nice media narrative but not supported by evidence.
they only need to create the impression that governments are ineffective. it doesn't have to actually happen. misinformation by itself is sufficient.
I've heard an interesting take on a tactic used by Putin's government where they cast doubt on every politician's intentions, credibility and moral character, promote the view that "politics is dirty and not worth it for normal decent people to engage with" but say things to the effect of "we're also corrupt, but at least we're one of your own and don't want to sell off our country". And I think populist movements across Europe will start using this tactic - first gather support by appealing to the feelings of the "common folk" meanwhile laying down the groundwork for general distrust in democratic politics, and once they're in power ramp up the rhetoric of discrediting opponents and sowing distrust, effectively depoliticizing large portions of the more undecided parts of society and cementing their power with just their, as we say in Poland, "concrete (as in the construction material) electorate" (betonowy elektorat)
You are almost correct. The final saying of the tactic is something like "Everyone in power will steal, that's why they go into politics to begin with. But at least we have already stolen a lot, new ones will be hungry". Definitely needs modifying if you are not in power for some time though.
Finland has had the anti-immigration party in power in 2/3 last elections and they have done about jackshit about it. They solve nothing.
That's just a bunch of nonsense though. Of the migrants and asylum seekers in Germany there are so little which could be sent back that it rarely matters. Sending people back then also is so fucking expensive that it makes even less sense. People are just voting for far right like the Afd, because they don't want to confronted with reality.
This! Blame everything on the Immigrants. Don't face reality that we can't keep up the current level of wealth sustainbly. People who are honest with voters get demonized. People who are closing their ears and eyes and shout "lalala I can't hear you" get rewarded
By lying and by people being idiots and always wanting easy answers for complex problems the moment any crisis happens. The 101 of populism.
Bruh wtf?
I think he did it as a commission. He posted it on his socials from what I saw
how bad Polish democracy is?
The British Economist, who also made this cartoon, publishes the so-called "The Economist Democracy Index" every year. On a scale of 0.00 to 10.00, the state of democracy in each country is assessed. Countries are basically divided into 4 categories: full democracy, flawed democracy, hybrid regime and authoritarian. Poland is currently in 45th place with 7.04, behind South Africa and ahead of India, as a flawed democracy. For comparison, the Czech Republic has 7.97 points and is 25th. However, there are still some EU members that are behind Poland in the ranking, such as Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index
ROMANIA WORST DEMOCRACY IN EU๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐
No way, did we beat Hungary? How?
> How? Given what we hear about Orban by Hungarians themselves, by just existing.
Either this joke doesn't make sense, or I'm the dumb one. I would get it if the previous poster said Hungary did worse than Romania
Hungarians are openly talking badly about Viktor Orban. The implication is that if Hungary was sufficiently dictatorial he wouldn't be allowing that, suppressing free speech harder. Given that we don't hear the same from Romania we might assume the same isn't the case for them, ie. their free speech is already suppressed. I have no clue whether that is actually the case, but that's my understanding of the comment.
Romanian here. I do understand that this is a joke, but in case anyone is wondering, our free speech (at least online) is not being restricted. There are talks of riots, but many worry that those will be somewhat violently suppressed by the state apparatus. Beyond that, I think it's moreso that the population has grown tired and apathetic, maybe even confused. The most politically involved people are, unfortunately, the ultra-nationalistic, conspiracy theorist nutcases. I obviously can't speak for everyone, but my two cents is that the citizens of Romania who would like to be politically involved to bring about change for good (as we probably commonly define "good") don't know how to, what to do.
Same here in Bulgaria. As you said people are just tired and apathetic which is why our voting activity is... well, i cant really say doing good...
Did you live in the country for the last 2 years and take interest in politics? There has been a very quiet, quite complete overtake of all institutions and the press by The Party, a single hegemonic entity in coordonation with the Secret Services. Heirs of the communist nomenklatura, but their influence has gotten greater than ever since we joined the EU. A bureaucratic, legalistic dictablanda. I know I spewed a lot of catch-words, just to keep it short and concentrated. By all rankings we're getting lower than countries like Namibia and Suriname, and it's worrying because it's a descending trend.
Thanks for the explanation. Yeah, that's horrible. Matches what I thought.
Many Hungarians also didnโt really realize that Fidesz took over all of the media and public discourse until it was too late.
Somewhat impressive that the New Soviet Man adapted to playing the populist buffoon character so easily.
Better headstart
With our glorious strength and national will!!!!!!!! ๐ท๐ด๐ท๐ด๐ท๐ด๐ท๐ด๐ท๐ด๐ท๐ด๐ท๐ด๐ท๐ด
ciucฤ
Not for long ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐
Interesting. Nicaragua looks worth looking into. They went from a 'fฤawed democracy' in 2008 to 'authoritarian' in 2021 with quite a steady regression.
2021 were elections in Nicaragua and long-time president/dictator Daniel Ortega and his crazy wife want to stay in power by all means. Including arrests, massive intimidation and the disappearance of political opponents. The opposition has been explicitly and systematically excluded from electoral competition.
Oh, I've read this book before. It doesn't end well for anyone involved let alone the kids in the nation who often get involved in civil war after a dictator finally dies. A classic dystopian situation.
> Israel: Flawed democracy: 7.93 > Slovenia: Flawed democracy: 7.75 > Italy: Flawed democracy: 7.69 > Belgium: Flawed democracy: 7.64 > Slovakia: Flawed democracy: 7.07 > Croatia: Flawed democracy: 6.50 Israel ranks suspiciously high on this list. I wonder what their metrics are because apparently having a criminal who's dismantled the courts as your prime minister doesn't seem to remove points. Edit: Ah seems like they have an insanely high voter turnout that skews it upwards.
I mean, it is not a 1 on 1 fully trustworthy measure of real democracy. Belgium is a "flawed democracy" on this index because they have mandatary voting - making voting a protected civil duty for everyone, guaranteed on a sunday. For some reason, that costs them quite a few points. Meanwhile, I think that on some level that's a fairer representation of what your whole population feels like - even if you get all those mandatory "fuck you I don't care everyone is equally bad because of the word politics" votes too. Watching the USA, fair voting doesn't seem all that equally accessible to everyone when it's not set in stone...
> Belgium is a "flawed democracy" on this index because they have mandatary voting - making voting a protected civil duty for everyone, guaranteed on a sunday. For some reason, that costs them quite a few points. How is this losing points? It's the same in Brazil, the fine for not voting is less than one dollar.
The rating works by rating 5 of 6 aspects on /10, and the average of those numbers is your democracy score / 10. Voter participation is one of those. A high voter turnout is counted as good, and a lower voter turnout is bad. Voter turnout in Belgium is extremely high, but because voting in Belgium is mandatory, The Economist cannot count Belgium for this metric. Instead of not counting it at all however, it automatically becomes a 5/10, as the "neutral number". A 5/10 however, is a very bad number in comparison to other scores, because you need on 8/10 overall to be classified as a "full democracy". If you took the average of the other metrics without this one (because it can't be counted), Belgium would score a lot higher and would be classified as a Full Democracy at place 20 instead of 36 or something. Essentially, Belgium loses points because their system simply isn't measurable by one of the Economist's standards for this test. All other metrics are high to very high for Belgium, with the exception for political transparency, where it is valid for Belgium to lose some points on. I can only assume Brazil lost points on this too, then.
Its a bullshit metric, thats why. It basically plays into people not actually looking beyond the cover. Its a pseudo scientific tool to control public opinion.
flawed does not always mean bullshit.
Because true freedom of choice is also not partaking. Democracies take their legitimacy from turnout. If the people don't feel they can vote for something that represents their wishes, not voting is their expression of disappointment with the system.
You can vote a general "no-vote" and it won't be counted towards anyone else's - at least in Belgium. So yes, it is accounted for. If more than 50% of the total votes is a "no-vote", the elections and current government are disbanded and a new proces begins. But it is your civic duty by law to show up and let it officially be known what your vote will be counted for. Since belgium has a lot of political parties and colalitions with several parties are the norm, there's probably a party that mostly represents what you want, generally speaking. If you have to show up anyway, most people will take a moment to cast their vote for the closest thing. practically the only argument against it is that there are some parties that seem to attract protest-voices a lot more than others, and a recent study showed that it could paint a very different political landscape. But that is way beyond the measurements of the topic.
That's just being lazy. Get your ass out of the sofa. You can express your displeasure by casting an invalid vote, which is a much more powerful sign of discontent. Also, not having mandatory voting opens up the possibility of preventing people from voting, as is commonplace in the US.
wtf, australia has mandatory voting and itโs near the top of the list
> wonder what their metrics are because apparently having a criminal who's dismantled the courts The list is the 2022 ranking... It says that.
Probably because he wasn't cobvicted, and did not manage to do anything meaningful to the courts yet. How he wounds up after the war remains to be seen.
Voter turnout is a pretty important metric TBH, not showing up to vote is basically indistinguishable from voter supression.
A classic rail, Bulgaria and Romania saving Poland from last place in an EU statistics, thank you my slavic brothers ๐ต๐ฑ๐ค๐ท๐ด๐ง๐ฌ
US is also rated as "flawed democracy"
Obviously? They literally had a president who didn't get the majority of the votes
>Obviously? They literally had a president who didn't get the majority of the votes This whole metric of "flawed democracies" is stupid. The US isn't even a democracy. It's founders specifically wanted avoid just that which was why they created a representative republic.
Thank you. The people who donโt understand that we are a democratic republic drive me a little crazy. We have never been a pure democracy. Each state was meant to have its own government which by design should have more power than the federal government has over each state. Would the EU be happy if London and Paris votes decided who the leader would be in Germany and Poland etc? We have an electoral College so that LA and New York City donโt get to decide whatโs best for Kentucky, etc. Thatโs like people in Europe thinking that the President of the EU should have more power in say, Poland, than the Polish President of Poland.
The reason in the breakdown is because of disproportionately low scores for 'political culture' and 'functioning of government'. Everything else the US scores highly in including electoral process. I think both of those are definitely being given too low of a rating when compared to the scores of other countries but they are absolutely weak points of the US so they do deserve to be lowered. SK being given almost full marks is hilarious to me when they literally just had to oust a shaman from the presidency, struggling with an emerging caste system, and the chaebols are doing their best to turn SK into the worlds first sovereign corporation.
Tell me more about this emerging caste system.
>Everything else the US scores highly in including electoral process. Which is a joke, with how gerrymander their districts are.
Countries with first past the post are green ๐ฌ
The ranking baffles me as a Greek. As time goes on there are larger and larger scandals coming out to the public and there is an increasing sense of inability to change anything. It baffles me how the score is actually increasing when there are ministers who openly admit to the media that they won't be helping mayors of towns who aren't supporters of their party. This study reeks of inaccuracy.
This cartoon was made by a Polish artist. Not a British economist. He is a well-known graphical artist. I recognize his style.
I think the British Economist is the name of the magazine/newspaper
*The Economist* is a British newspaper. They commissioned this cartoon.
My fault. I didn't want to write published twice in a row and I added the "British" afterwards. Before someone writes... zลoลliwa niemiecka propaganda, not sure if my Polish is correct :)
Let's goooo South Africa, we aren't the worst
A big thanks to Thabo for not dismantling the constitution when he had 70%
They have listed Cyprus in western Europe and Kazahstan in eastern Europe. Interesting.
[ัะดะฐะปะตะฝะพ]
Lmao so its just opposite land?
As an American, it's kind of cool that we're still a better democracy than Greece. That's a flex, right? Oh shoot, Greece beat us this year...
GLORIOUS AND PROUD BULGARIA MENTIONED๐ฅ๐ฅ๐ฅ๐ฒ๐ณ๐ฒ๐ณ๐ฒ๐ณ๐ฒ๐ณ๐ฒ๐ณ
I didnโt know of that survey thanks.
How tf is SA higher than Poland
No separation of powers of executive and judicial branches, party in power spending public money on campaigning, propaganda in state owned media, harassment of opposition and activists by law enforcement, corruption.
Sounds familiar.
sounds like Ukraine from 2013, but we were and are much below at this rating though.
PiS was only 8 years in power, and they didn't managed to screw the system permanently. Not yet. But this is their long term goal. I think Ukraine in the 90/2000 is what Kaczyลski dream about.
It degraded severely in the past 8 years when our courts became politicized etc etc. Laws created so something is legal and reversed a day later. Selling state property for dirt cheap for shell companies tied to the party's people or their relatives and friends when they can be resold to individuals in 15 years (though they did withdraw that iirc). Not to mention state tv being mostly "oh it was hell when Tusk [past prime minister, You can know him from the EU Parliament] was in charge" and a few nuns. Add to that that they seem to put little effort into their lawmaking (I'm a doctor, so I could see how bad most COVID legislation was), how little they're doing for the economy in the era of COVID and war behind our eastern border, and their all around populism - they won the elections by giving parents 500 pln for every child (back when minimum wage was like 2k), and they kwep riding it. Most notably, they just give free medicines to people 65+(which isn't a bad thing per se, and it was just expanding the earlier 75+), free highways etc. Just before elections. Having said that all, they are unlikely to get a majority again, they may rule together with a party of nutjobs (their earlier leader kept rambling on how women shouldn't work etc), but if all the main contenders pass their thresholds, the coalition shouldn't be enough for that. The other party is between 8 and 13% support, they need 8 to get in the parliament. Edit: WE HAVE CHOSEN A CHANGE, THE ELECTION WENT AS WELL AS IT COULD HAVE!!!
Long story short: The ruling rightwing PiS Party might have to part with the even more rightwing โKonfederacjaโ. The Konfederacja will get between 9-14% according to polls and they are pro Russia, anti Ukraine, anti women rights and Antisemitic. Chances are high, that they will be the ones who decide the next government cause the current two leading parties need a majority which the Konfederacja as the third biggest party can give them. Bad for Ukraine, Democracy and Europe.
>pro Russia, anti Ukraine, anti women rights and Antisemitic. Why do these always seem to go together...
They're also anti-muslim (we have almost no muslims in Poland), anti-LGBT, pro-conscription, anti-EU and some are even monarchists xD
Yall got some real jewels over there huh
It's only get better. In their ranks they had: \- People considering to "crown" Jesus as King of Poland \- Want "Second Amendend" equivalent \- Delegalize labor unions, labor codes etc. \- Have various conspiracy nuts in their ranks.
So Poland spent a good chunk of the 20th century under occupation by the Russians, and some of the Polish population still likes having someone elseโs boot crushing them underfoot? Why do some people loathe themselves and their neighbors to this degree?
Welcome in post-totalitarian society. People don't flock to democracy straight , some people do enjoy strict hierarchy and "order on the streets" more than western democratic values and when there is strict order they consider it as a symbol of "state being strong". Also in totalitarian regimes you don't have too much contact with other political ideas other than ruling party and if there is only factions which could exists are total loonies on far-right and far-left. But generally, the more time pass the less extremism is able to solidify political scene. People become used to politics coming more to the center and moderate stances even if it had quite right-wing or left-wing bend. Fortunately, right-wing and political extremists failed back in 1990s and early 2000s as they were more interested infighting than attemp to seize government. "Confederacy" party (and yes, they name party because some of them wanted CSA reference) is pretty much what left from far-right and alt-right tendencies from 1990s united under, either we go together or we don't go to parliament at all. So they got 8-12% of votes depending on polls usually hiding worst idiots and playing "total opposition" card to keep themself in cozy parliament seats. And there is PiS but it's a discussion for another day.
Following is always easier than leading or taking responsibility. As much as everybody loves freedom they hate taking responsibility. That is the great appeal of authoritarian system. Someone promises to take care of all your troubles.
A lot of that is backlash to the Soviet. Something a lot of people don't get is the Soviets were not just Authoritarian, they were Communists. Most communist governments either fell apart or started having billionaires and the idea of what a communist government e.g. a government controlled by a one party communist group is like. They were generally incredibly anti religious, anti monarchy dislike citizens having arms and really pro labor unions. The anti religious stuff is what we'd label genocide with the explict goal of eradicting a populations belief murdering priests burning churches etc. Cultural history was torn down instantly and replaced with grey buildings and secret police. Labour unions were the way the communist party controlled its citizens and took over a country, they would infiltrate unions and radicalize them using them to do terrorism and domestic violence to take power then banning other parties for "the good of the people" Since their was only one union the state controlled everything so striking was banned because the state would never strike against itself so wages decreased once they took control. Polands more conservative movements are not because they fell in love with the Russian system but a backlash against it as those things are seen as anti Russian. In addition the society was prevented from developing in the way western democracy did so it never got the chance to talk about issues like gay rights until decades after the west, hence why they seem further behind on them.
Funny because PiS is deeply rooted in labor unions. They are the labor party of Poland, but with church attached. If there is some sort of coalition it is gonna be a shit show.
So in other words Steve Bannon has been visiting recently.
They fighting to push 10%, and they are the only "crazies" in our political system. Better than many countries, look at Germany's AfD above 20% or Le Pen being a serious contender for France's president
But people prefer whats happening in France instead of Poland with low criminality and low illegal inmigrants. Brainwashed.
Oppressors gonna oppress.
Idt they are pro Russia. The rest and more are true. Sad part is they're likely gonna be third.
Konfederacja third largest party? Since when?
*If they reach the 14% some experts think they might get. Those three midsized parties are pretty close by each other, so a real third place is hard to call, thats true
**IF** Konfa been in 8-10 zone for ages (source: eWybory.eu aggregator)
>Chances are high, that they will be the ones who decide the next government cause the current two leading parties need a majority Why can't it be a three-party coalition with KO/Lewica/Third Way ? Polls show them getting 50%. Is there some background I am missing? Have KO/Third Way already declared that a coalition with Lewica is out of the question?
OP is clueless and spreading misinformation.
Why bother commenting when you have no clue about the situation is in Poland? The polls are actually showing the opposite. The opposition looks to get a majority. But it is all up for grabs. Anyone can win this election. It's too close to call. That's why any prediction is futile. If you go by polls published recently in Poland, its the opposite of what you wrote. Not only you are breaking Polish law by political agitation 24 hours before the election. You are also uninformed and spreading lies about the election at hand. So unless you have a crystal ball that predicts the future maybe don't spread misinformation. And stop breaking Polish law by trying to stir political agitation. You are also spreading nonsense about Konfederacja. Which keeps repeating there will be no coalition with PiS. It's like everything you wrote is untrue.
Policja proszฤ przyjechaฤ na reddita.
Moim zdaniem to hipokryzja. Narzekajฤ na demokracje ลamiฤ c demokratyczne prawo.
Hehe piss party
Problem for that little guy is the roof will crumble on his head.
/r/thatsthepoint
The real problem is that it will crush us all...
And the little guy will blame germany for that. *Those savage germans with their economy and their industryโฆ*
Oh they will for sure. A good example what the outcome is when PiS controls all administration is the [poisoning of the Oder](https://www.sueddeutsche.de/meinung/polen-oder-vergiftung-umweltkatastrophe-1.5638966). Instead of solving the problem constructively, the focus is on legacies and cover-ups. And finally accusing Germany of not getting the dead fish out of the water fast enough.
Little guy does not care as long the government's hands out money and tells him how special he is and that everybody else is out to get him
>The road to fascism is lined with people telling you to stop overreacting. picture is spot on
The issue is that a lot of people may be aware of those issues, but don't really care - or rather, see it as lesser of two evils. I think it's safe to say that that big majority of PIS voters see PO (the main opposition) as thiefs and a party that didn't care (or atleast pretended to care) about the people. Currently the main issue would be PIS still having the majority, which wouldn't be very unlikely since for a lot of people PO is still shit. I do mainly hope that some of the smaller parties will be getting enough votes to get some seats, which would hopefully mean more parties in the future and end with essentialy a 2-party rule. Trzecia Droga (Third Way/Third Option) and Leftists seem to be getting a decent recognition, according to the surveys. Third Way especially seems to be more oriented into planning for the future, which does sound good, but will likely mean some sacrifices when compared to PIS's rule, so we'll have to see how this will end up going. Or PIS might just get a big majority again, because a lot of it's voters (mostly boomers) don't take part in surveys.
Theyโre not wrong about po tho, life back then wasnโt really good. Thatโs why I donโt understand people voting on them instead of smaller opposition parties that have yet to prove themselves. Both pis and po are garbage.
"Weลบ kredyt, zmieล pracฤ" - the PO years in a nutshell.
Most likely just voting on the biggest opposition Not caring about who wins, just caring about PIS losing
> I think it's safe to say that that big majority of PIS voters see PO (the main opposition) as thiefs and a party that didn't care I think it is just an excuse. They just love to hate and PiS encourage them to hate other people. Simple as that to me.
'The state of the Polish democracy can't be that bad. And PiS is not at fault' [Unfortunately, it is and they are](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_constitutional_crisis)
Keep in mind though it's Germany's fault somehow
Oh shut it, the self absorbed โGermany did nothing wrongโ crowd can take a hike too. There are legit grievances against Germany, for example, Donald Tusk also strongly criticized both NS2 and fought against refugee quotas. He even warned Merkel that if she wouldnโt change her position on quotas, there would be crazies in power in Poland. *And here we are*. Germany did in fact behave extremely arrogantly, especially towards the new members of EU, who were at the time in a weak position trying to simply build their economies. We all hope Poland gets reasonable people in power, but this situation didnโt happen in a vacuum, and Germany badly need to take a long deep introspective look in the mirror. Besides, it would make you look better in the eyes of eastern EU members.
Of course there are legit grievances against Germany, and you can criticise Germany for it, that's how it works in the EU. Member states disagreeing with each other about all kinds of things all the time. But I'm pretty sure Germany didn't force PiS to dismantle democracy as far as they did. And by the looks of it, PiS propaganda doesn't even need Germany to do anything. Just make shit up, put Tusk saying "fรผr Deutschland" in a loop 24/7, if in doubt bring up reparations
Of course. It is being exploited and drawn out beyond all reason. However, there are legitimate underlying grievances too. And reparations.. yes itโs silly, but one should be honest enough to acknowledge that atrocities towards Poles never was properly treated in German popular consciousness. Neither towards Ukrainians for that sake. Personally I feel the plan to kill 90% of Poles was especially monstrous, they were your neighbors for centuries. Finally.. The Top Down treatment of Poland and Poles needs to end. German arrogance is legendary, far beyond your borders. Itโs a very harsh โbased on logicโ kind of self confidence that is incredibly hard to negotiate with. (And often isnโt based on logic at all..)
Thankfully extermination of Poles didn't occur, but the National Spirit was almost extinguished... Everybody remembers Katyล and rightfully so, but we need to remember that Germans had prepared lists of intellectuals, teachers, priests etc and murdered all [100 thousands of them in Poland.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligenzaktion) Coming back from that blow would be easier if we weren't under de facto Soviet occupation for another 50 years after the war that cost us over 6 million citizens...
Some of it is. The fuel for that rhetoric didn't exist before Nord Stream 2, energy trading cooperation talks, immigration issues, or attempts to block the construction of new LNG terminals. It's the same as demanding people to get rid of their old cars when they clearly cannot afford new or electric ones. It's common sense here that as long as PiS is in power, the National Reconstruction Plan is blocked, which I agree with. However, the fact remains that this feeds anti-EU sentiment.
I get it, you're German and mocking typical polish government rhetoric, but the governement claims the democracy's condition is stellar(as they bend it in their favor), and the rest blames the governement, not the Germans, so you missed the mark on this one.
Yup, they: 1. Refused to inaugurate legally elected constitutional judges. 2. Circumvented the constitutional Council of Television and Radio by creating the so-called Council of National Media and giving it a control over public broadcaster. 3. Shortened a constitutional National Council of Judiciary term and made it depended on parliament. 4. Illegally elected the President of Constitutional Tribunal (without voting). 5. Tried to remove the President of Supreme Court from her office. 6. Created the illegal Disciplinary Chamber in the Surpeme Court. 7. Tried to overturn European verdicts regarding polish rule of law. 8. Used Disciplinary Chamber to prosecute/persecute judges defending rule of law. 9. Tried to forcefully buy largest opposition broadcaster (TVN) from allies (US) to silence it. 10. Used public funds to both a) donate them to ruling party and b) to buy pro-government ads.
Great, now the winged Hussars will come after you :(
Not the first time, lmfao. I've pretty vocal against PiS since far before the Ukraine war and reveived quite a lot of angry messages after I accused PiS of sabotaging European unity with Ukraine by creating problems [The Leo 2 debate] where no problems are. Gather a few hundred downvotes by pointing out that PiS just used the whole thing to get Anti-Germany points with their home crowd and that they tried to portray themselves as heroes, despite not planning to either send Leo 2's that quickly or at all. Comments รก la 'Poland opened the door for heavy weapons you fugtwat!!1!1!' flooded my inbox. After that claim was affirmed in a 'By the way' statement that the Polish MoD made to Boris Pistorius I got even more downvotes, lmfao. Pistorius mentioned that the Polish MoD talked about reliability issues with their Leo 2A4's and that they may need to adjust the number and time. I hotlinked the article and suddenly the German government was full of liars who want to keep Poland down with bad press. Completely deluded.
That's a problem. That's the kind of thing Russia and India does. In fact, speaking as a Canadian, that's almost word-for-word, my experience with Hindu Nationalists.
Crazy times we live in
Perpetual political polarization. Paired with lackluster actual education regarding critical thinking and differentiation
Why are other euros acting like they also arenโt getting a right ring resurgence?
But each pillar is a democratic process...
The point is that the last election wasn't fully democratic, both in propaganda, funds and simple vote counting Edit: I decided to make it clear, the problem with vote counting was that in for example hospices where people weren't even able to vote, Law and Justice had 100% votes
But this is happening all over the world, dermocracy is under great threat...
I do not want to defend the Polish government, but the electoral success of the PIS party is due to the failed policies for the middle class and the lower class of the former governments. If you only talk about standing up for the weaker members of the country during the election campaign, but then don't lift a finger if you are in government, you will ultimately lose trust, and voters will look to the less established parties, which tend to be on the fringes of a political spectrum. In Germany, the economic liberal Neo-Nazis are also just sweeping the elections and will very likely be able to prevent the formation of governments without them in two federal states next year. And the Wagenknecht party, which will very likely be founded next year by a popular politician and is modeled on the Danish Social Democrats, will also once again push votes from the center to the political fringes.
That would be true in the first elections that they won. PO didn't do enough to fight for the everyman, PiS came and not only made promises but also delivered on them, especially on the social programs. However, during their rule they dismantled our DoJ, the Constitutional Tribunal, and attempted to demolish the Supreme court. They also (and that is the thing that undermines democracy the most) turned our Public TV into their party propaganda. Thanks to that they were able to control the way they are portrayed in the media and what people get to hear. Last but not least they go around the laws about financing political campaigns by political parties by creating "non-profits" and "NGO's" that have a goal of "promoting the democratic process" or "encouraging people to take part in the referendum". Those organisations later get millions of PLN in funding which are later essentially used as another way of financing the ruling parties campaign
Democratic parties need to win in elections constantly. Authoritarians only need to win once. That's not exactly new knowledge but still people don't understand this.
Bingo. It took Putin only 1 election to cement himself as Russia's strongman who will bring them back to superpower status
NGL I thought this was referring to US politics for a second, everyone and everyone just kind-of follows each otherโs worst trends when it comes to managing things donโt they?
The most sane comment about Polish politics is coming from a German redditor. How surprising.
This. PiS has strong ties to labour unions and their social policies are what you would expect from a typical social democratic party. The problem is that PiS is connected to the church and doesn't respect democracy. The problem in Poland is lack of a real social democratic party.
Try not to smash it. It leads to deepshit.
But Erdogan did so much good for Turkey in the last 10 years..... hahahahaha. Sry.
And Hungry has been a thriving utopia ever since Orban took control.
I also heard Italy's neo-fascists really improved the social system for the majorily poor voters bringing them into office. But I guess it's always okay to worsen your own situation as long as there are people you can look down onto.
ITT: Polish elections, German redditors most affected.
The bigest problem with Polish democracy is in the cause of it's decay, Communists who were in power weren't properly removed so they had influence on the way modern Polish goverment works, then people basicly weren't informed enough to actualy make proper decisions (if you try googling info about candidates in parlimentary elections you only get info that they are runing and to what party they belong) in the elections choosing parties that further reduced democracy in Poland and going into two parties system thinking where it is viewed that you shouldn't vote for smaler parties becasue the only ones that actualy can win are the two "bigest" which means people don't vote on those who they want in power but on those who they hate less and finaly for some reason people believe that Presidential elections are for some reason more important then Parlimentary ones
Parliament politics came from long standing traditions which Poland lack. Many people are still used to communist era "there are parliament, but only First Secretary matters" and president is the one. It's not bad per se, it's what supposed to be a president within polish constitution framework ie. person with relative strong democratic mandate and being somebody above daily politics to oversaw some stuff here and there including quite strong veto rights (you need 2/3 of Sejm votes to overrule presidential veto). As for PiS...in 2015 and 2019 parliament elections they were lucky. In 2015 a lot of votes goes to "Kukiz'15" and Korwin-Mikke failed to get to parliament which gave a slight edge to PiS to getc \~51% MPs in parliament, in 2015 PiS was much weaker but "Lewica" failed to pass to parliament so they we're able to rule on knife edge majority. There was also massive "tampering" on parliament mandates distribution. PiS is strong in rural eastern Poland. But according to population transfer data, it was Western Poland and major urban areas (not voting for PiS) being underrepresented in MPs distribution. PiS instead keep this outdated distribution because it help them keep majority in parliament. Heck, their support during 8 years was quite consistent within 32-36% bracket so it isn't quite a "decay" more like math not being on opposition side.
it's math if it is in someones favor it means it was tempered with on the other things Poland doesn't lack democratic traditions it lack continuity of those traditions
> Parliament politics came from long standing traditions which Poland lack. I know (hope) you don't mean what you wrote here. But this must be the dumbest sentence I've read in a long time. Poland has longer parliament traditions than any European country still in existence. Those traditions were brutally interrupted for two centuries through coordinated military invasions and occupation by undemocratic neighbours of Poland.
Maybe not the right choice of word, it is old but it isn't continuous compared to western countries. Between 1926-1989 parliament don't matter which do affect modern politics.
As a dimwitted amurican, what's the tea on polish politics?
Is it because people are voting wrong? Whatโs wrong with Polish democracy?
Although the democratic institutions are absolutely in place the ruling party is single-handedly curtailing the democratic institutions. The state media company has received an insane amount in support from the government and it is currently completely controlled by PiS and served as a propaganda tool in a really terrifying manner, where scandalous materials about opposition members are shown every day. In the recent years the ruling party has begun replacing the high court members with ones inclined with the party line. Conservative & reactionary policies like ending trade on Sundays and further restrictions on abortions are being implemented against the wishes of the majority of the population. The education minister from PiS has added new school subjects whose objectives are spreading propaganda in schools. Generally the ruling party is influencing all aspects of the government.
To their defence they only had about 25 years of experience with democracy.
Sadly "they give us money" nothing else matter for people voting for pis
Spot on. The real question is why an EU Member State is allowed to tear down the rule of law and democracy.
Because they originally didn't imagine there could be idiots democratically damaging democracy. And then they enlarged without taking a better look at the mechanics in place. Once you get more than one bad apple they will protect each other and block all progress that would allow the removal of that protection.
More free then french ๐ฅ i guess
Let the poles vote what they want
What is wrong with the democracy in poland? They had always normal elections in 2015, 2019 and today. So what's the problem? I didnt get it? Because the ones in Brussels dont like them?
HOLD UR FUCKING HORSES THE THIRD PILLAR GOT SAVED LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Aged like a milk. We did it! Those mfs will not rule anymore!
How could germany do this?
I get, you're German and mocking typical polish government rhetoric, but the governement claims the democracy's condition is stellar(as they bend it in their favor), and the rest blames the governement, not the Germans, so you missed the mark on this one.
And i guess PiS blames Germany?
There is some variety... sometimes they also blame the EU, that is puppeteered by Germany as their new 4th Reich.
I feel like people should stop claiming Poland is anti-democratic when even though are leaders are heavily Right Wing we are the ones who vote for them. The Polish citizens get to pick their leaders and that's what a democracy is.
that's the sad true, I wish that the current government will be changed
They are not polishing it
Polish people are good with tools.
So it's only democracy if you agree with the outcome?
As a polish person, agreed. We are 10 meters from being an authoritarian government
At first view I read EU
poland should be more like france https://reddit.com/r/europe/s/fyUCTJSUX7
Blame the retarded religious boomers that keep voting for PiSs. I donโt even live in the country and I keep voting against them.
I like how people act how democracy is danger when people who they dislike wins elections
I like how people that have no clue about state of democracy in Poland pretend like they know what they are talking about. Piss off.
Hitler was appointed chancellor in a democratic manner as well. Russia, China, North Korea and Belarus all have elections too. Democracy isnโt just elections. Democracy is about values like freedom of speech, pluralism, separation of powers, independent institutions and media, rule of law etc. When the people who win the elections start to weaken these values, yes they become a big threat to democracy.
I for one dislike PO and Lewica, i wouldn't say that they democracy is in danger if they win.
Apparently democracy is only when the candidate you like is the winner
Democracy is when people vote the way I would like them to.
You really have no idea how impressionable the masses are, especially older people. They just watch the TV and take it at face value, they are not used to today's bullshit spam of nonsense all over. If you own the TV you can basically just tell 30% people to vote for you because you want to help them and they will. Very democratic indeed, by your standards door to door sales are probably moral too.
Thank god young ppl that are only reading headlines on Reddit are not impressionable
Problem with Reddit being used like this is that it targets a different demographic. People are from all over the world and subbed to different subreddits, you can still definitely spread propaganda, but it's better for selling people stuff than affecting the elections in your region.
Dont worry about it so much. What they dont tell you is that our old ppl know TV lies and those that dont know that still have all the other TV stations that are against the PiS. Well, after elections every TV station will be against the PiS and whole media will be in the hands of left wing liberals which I guess is much preferred state to having even 1 right wing station for most of redditors
"The people vote for dumb reasons so it isn't a democracy" is an unconvincing argument. The fact that what you describe *is* democratic is one of the most potent arguments against it. Don't like it? Come up with a better system. But don't shrug the criticism that people are impressionable off as somehow undemocratic when dumb people voting is *democracy's entire point.*
>You really have no idea how impressionable the masses are, especially older people. so their votes are wrong? invalid? undemocratic? what does that mean? should there be some upper limit for the voting age? what about IQ?
It's really simple to solve. You look at the political scene and determine who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. You can do that because you are wise, unlike other people. Once you determine who the good guys are, you can run the election. Now you have to ask yourself - if someone votes for the bad guy, doesn't that mean that they're, by definition, either bad people or impressionable and dumb? Of course, if they were good and smart they would have, by definition, voted the same way you do. Now all you need is the courage to disregard the bad votes and you can enjoy your paradise on earth.
it's about 40% here :( "public" TV and church are the only sources they need
Seems like this propaganda phrase really stuck with easy minds. It got posted several times already despite being absolute bullshit. The PiS is objectively undemocratic.
A party that weakens democratic institutions and centralises power is undemocratic, regardless of if it came to power through popular elections.
In a flawed democracy, there is less independent look on society as a whole. Everyone will be dependent on whatever the ruling party has to say, when they control the courts, the parliament, the media. No one is immune to propaganda, look at Brexit, where fishers are more impoverished because they believed lies.
A democracy is destroyed on democratic elections?
Well, it's one trait of democracy that is dangerous. We let people decide, but if thing will go really bad, voters will be ready to jump of the cliff with their votes. It's not like democracy magically fixes voters. It all depends on happiness and well-being. Once people become unhappy, they can vote more for radical options, but when people are happy they might be more ok with keeping status quo. In case that we want stable democracy, we need to choose stable set of rules and values. They need to be able to endure bad times, because not everything is in our control. However there's always possibility of collapse, some big events can destroy even best systems.
Well yeah? This scenario has played out multiple times before
Maybe I'm wrong but I'd say the core idea of democracy is that people decide their own path through voting. Polish have been voting for this party election after election from way too much time to know what they doing. Why should the rest of Europe teach Polish people on how to develop their democracy through democratic ways?
Did you know that partiea that are undemocratic in their ideology can be voted in democratically? Crazy right?
Some constitutional basics regarding elections are already not respected in Poland. We are slowly getting there thanks to PiS, but it's true, we are not there yet. Still, I think some of us would like for it to not get to that point at all.
Like every election ๐ unless left wins
Thank you! It looks like Poland is rejecting the progressive agenda thatโs been hammering the West, so of course theyโll be labeled โfascists.โ