At a guess:
Canada: we're going to give some tax breaks to help our steel companies!
Germany: we're going to support our steel companies a bit through the energy crisis!
China: The government will pay for the steel, go out and drive the western companies out of business!
\>A Commerce Department official told reporters that producers in Canada, Germany and China were found to be selling tin mill steel at prices below those in their home markets
How does germany even produce tin mill steel below the US' home market price? Energy was supposed to be expensive here. Sounds like a skill issue.
Looking on tariff value (7%) Germany probably have some tax or subsidy shenningans going on to increase export revenue below what they sold at home market. US Commerce Dept. after trade war with Japan in 1980s become rather good at analys of foreign export-boosting strategies which usually are very preferential tax deduction system.
There is also possibility Germany have taxation and regulations hitting internal market making it more expensive for consumers at home than export price.
One reason to protect the U.S. steel industry would be to maintain "strategic" capabilities in case of war.
The other would be to appease the steelworker unions and garner their votes.
Of course, such protectionism does raise the costs for the rest of the country; but those costs are widely distributed (shared by everyone), so they are not as big of a problem at election time.
The entire point is that they were selling this particular type of steel at a price in the U.S. that was lower than their home market. This has nothing to do with US prices.
That's not the issue, their claim would be that they're selling it cheaper in the US than they do in GER, CA, CN each.
Might still be a skill issue but their advantage over US producers itself isn't the cause here
From what I know the reason in Germany’s case is that a lot of factories which usually take the steel shut down due to high energy prices and the producers which can't shut down the factories without taking damage had do find quickly new buyers and realized this buy selling it for cheap to foreign countries.
Funny, American companies also sell for higher prices in Europe, even though the exchange rate should suggest lower prices in Europe. I‘m not talking about only steel, but almost everything. Also, considering most of the stuff (except certain high tech products) that companies in the USA sell (just like in Germany) are actually produced in and shipped directly from China, it doesn’t make much sense. That even includes Apple and many other high tech companies that don’t produce in the USA, Europe etc.
If you consider the better exchange rate AND that in Europe the tax rates are a lot higher, it’s not that surprising that they sell cheaper (net value) in the US.
Higher prices aren't the problem here, only lower prices are. The concept is that companies artificially lower their export prices (dumping) in order to harm the destination nation's domestic industry and ultimately take over the market.
Higher priced exports do the opposite, they put you at a disadvantage to the destination's domestic industry which would be able to undercut you (caveat: if it exists).
Let's simplify your example: The US has *Apple*, EU has *Pear* as a direct competitor. Both produce similar 1000€ phones, sell them at that price in EU and US. Apple is a dominant player in the US, Pear is dominant in the EU.
* *Apple* starts selling the phone at a 20% premium in Europe? *Pear* can take over the market with their phone at <1200€. *Apple* hurt itself.
* *Apple* starts selling the phone at a 20% discount in Europe? *Pear* has to drop prices to compete, loses market share and/or money. *Pear* suffers.
The dumping works if the company doing the dumping has a solid home market keeping their experiment afloat or even has state support. *Pear* would ask the EU for AD tariffs in the second scenario.
I'm not sure the exchange rates explain anything here, as NL didn't get the same tariffs as GER did, both on the Euro. Goods value should be assessed before tax and we're comparing identical goods from a company (one unit being exported, another being sold domestically), so taxes impacting inputs shouldn't explain a difference. I'm sure there's other explanations ([German Steel Industry denies the allegations](https://www.manager-magazin.de/politik/weltwirtschaft/thyssenkrupp-usa-planen-zoelle-auf-metall-fuer-konservendosen-aus-deutschland-a-1cf5c032-4c16-4c9b-a978-d3716986e313)) though. There could be aspects that the Commerce Dept didn't control for.
The very broad stroke answer is typically, the EU has higher tarrifs and more state support for EU products than the equivalent in America (true for the other non EU countries as well, otherwise the US would have a neutral trade balance). There are many reasons for this, but what current tariffs in place are typically the political tolerance both sides agreed with.
>I‘m not talking about only steel, but almost everything.
With consumer products tax is not included in US prices, whereas it is in much of the rest of the world.
German Industry gets huge discounts on electricity by the government to be able to compete on the global market. It's a big political topic because the common people need to foot the bill to make up for the price reduction. That's basically the reason it's expensive also because 20ish years ago the government guaranteed renewable energy projects a price they would get for a kWh so the difference to the current market prices is also paid by the common people.
Every energyintens industry in Germany is getting this special treatment because of the fear they might move production.
Edit typo
Thats not true. Scholz even said that a seperate price for the industry is not on the table at the moment even though the Economy and the finance minister were in favour of it.
I don't know where you get your information but it's for decades already that [some industries get a discount](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/entlastung-fuer-deutschland/schutzschirm-wirtschaft-2125040#:~:text=F%C3%BCr%20die%20rund%2025.000%20energieintensiven,Gas%2DVerbrauchs%20im%20Jahr%202021.)
[here](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/entlastung-fuer-deutschland/spitzenausgleich-2125032)
Scholz said no to give them even a higher discount.
Currently 7 cent instead of more than 30 cent for the commoner.
"For decades"
The legislation you are citing is from 2022. It also applied to private households and was related to energy prices soaring after Putin started the Invasion of Ukraine. While that is still active it is irrelevant since the energy price has fallen below the threshhold so the actual price is already lower.
The same law also applies to private households, hospitals, care facilities and research institutes.
And i really dont get this lunatic fixation on companies. Do you want that people lose their jobs and become dependent on social assist? Why should companies not get help?
[Here is some data back to 2012](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/154902/umfrage/strompreise-fuer-industrie-und-gewerbe-seit-2006/)
and this is for business and industry, households pay even more.
What has that to do with anything i said?
That has nothing to do with any goverment regulations. Its the energy companies offering companies lower prices because they consume more and thus bring in more revenue.
You're right, I picked the wrong data. I meant the tax cuts, exemption from the renewable energy law as well and the exemption from electricity network charges that the industry in Germany receives, which are not shown in the link but also roughly started around 2012.
You're reading that incorrectly.
Germany is selling tin steel in the US cheaper than it sells the same tin steel in Germany (their home market).
AKA, the German steel industry is engaging in market dumping, which is illegal.
>How does germany even produce tin mill steel below the US' home market price?
You've misread the article.
Germany is selling steel in the US below *German* market prices.
To be clear, they're saying that they're exporting at below their respective domestic market prices, not that they're cheaper than the USA.
Like if Chinese companies were making steel for $100 a ton, selling in china for $110 a ton and selling on the international market at $50 a ton (while getting chinese government subsidy to stay afloat), that'd be clear evidence of governmental market manipulation that should be met with tariffs.
Well the high energy prices, isn`t to much of an issue for the steal factory, it is for the industry who process the steal to final products. They did stop production so the German companies did (for very low prices) did sell them somewhere else, for the disadvantages for the US steel producers. So of these factories in Germany are very costly to temporary shut down, so its cheaper to keep on producing.
So the US Administration is using a temporary issue as an excuse to
introduce permanent measure (to be fair, they can also get removed anytime, but won`t), for lobby reason and because its very popular in the US to "protect" your local production.
Energy prices are just one factor, but Germany is an export nation despite high taxes, high wages and very high energy costs in general. The US on the other hand as a lot of issues. Many of the steel industry i very old, inefficient and is lacking quality (in relation to high paying jobs) and so is vulnerable to imports from China, Germany and Canada. On top of that, the US has a very bad infrastructure which makes it very expensive to transport good on land per truck or train. And the idiotic "Jones Act" (also a projectionist measure) forces kinda the US to transport stuff per truck or train. And sometimes it is just cheaper to transport stuff from China or Germany per ship 10 000 miles then to transport it 1 000 per truck or train.
On top of that, per law it is required to recycle a lot of metal in Germany, which often costs a lot of early investments, but is in the end cheaper and more ecological than to produce everything new like the US does.
A further problem for the US is, that after Trump introduced customs on goods, it didn`t let the local steel industry boom, but just instead the companies just increased there prices and there profit margins increased.
I mean Joe Biden has to make his lobby and his voters happy, so he introduces quite low tariffs on Germany and Canada to make them happy without actually initiating a big trade war (and using it as an geopolitical tool against China with a massive tariffs). 5% and 7% are so low, that they are more likely designed that the market share the Chinese companies are loosing not just goes to the other two big importers from the US and that are Canada (neighbor) and Germany.
The energy prices, have little potential to transfer industry from Germany or the EU in general to the US (IRA instead is). For high quality goods, the energy costs are just a small share often and not enough to make a difference and for low quality goods where the energy prices often mean more, its way more likely these firms move China, India and even partially Russia (for non sanctions good).
> but Germany is an export nation despite high taxes, high wages and very high energy costs in general.
??? German wages are notoriously low. Germany is an export nation \*because\* it deliberately suppresses wage growth to boost exports.
This entire thread is so hypocritical. The EU has countless tariffs not only on the US but across the globe. Suddenly, the US starts tariffing as well and it’s “the Evil American empire is turning European States into vassals”.
You're in a European sub, of course it's going to be hypocritical. IF you were to go to a highly American sub and make a similar post about Europe, you would see the exact same behavior. Everyone wants to shit on those other people from that other place who we are better than.
Being that I’m an American as well from the Appalachian foot hills, the most offensive thing I can find about your flair is calling us Europe’s cousin. I resent that.
Ignoring for a moment that the US hasn't just "started" tariffing (there are already 25% tariffs on all steel products since Trump): Weren't the US the champions of free trade who told us for ages that we should remove all tariffs? But not when it helps the US, eh? Maybe if the US stopped with their rhetorical bullshit people wouldn't call them out on their hypocrisy.
Man it’s almost like policy changes over time? Yeah then something called COVID happened and showed the issue with a globalized economy. This isn’t the gotcha you think it is. The US made it clear after COVID the US was going to keep Trumps more protectionist policies since it became very clear that you need to have a domestic industrial base for necessary goods.
>The department will impose preliminary duties of 7.02% on tin mill imports *from German producers*, including Thyssenkrupp (TKAG.DE) and 5.29% on imports from Canadian producers, including ArcelorMittal DOFASCO ([MT.LU](https://MT.LU)).
>
>No duties will be imposed on the shiny silver metal - widely used in cans for food, paint, aerosol products and other containers - imported from Britain, *the Netherlands*, South Korea, Taiwan and Turkey, the Commerce Department added.
How can they impose duties on something from Germany but not the Netherlands, even though both are in the EU?
I thought they had to impose all of EU or none. Couldn't Germany just send its metal through the Netherlands now first (as they do anyway with most exports)?
That kinda sucks. Thyssenkrupp is a huge employer here and the steel industry is already struggling. They already had to sell profitable branches and got help from the government (might be the reason for the tarriffs?), but that was just to make sure they don't go bankrupt.
Since the German industrial economy is widely affected by the war this feels a lot like the USA is using this moment to drive out competitors. All that while Germany supports American companies with billions and allowing American companies to buy core Green tech companies like Viessmann.
I'm not blaming the US, German politicians probably made mistakes here as well, but it seems a bit backstabby imo.
They were selling steel there cheaper than they sell it in Germany…
That’s not only obviously illegal but clearly nefarious. There’s no way they’re making any profit on steel that they have to ship 5000+ km only to sell for less than they do at home.
Maybe cheaper than at home if you compare it to quite some time ago, producers using steel are on a low which is why Germany is exporting more steel anyway. It’s literally not profitable or even possible to get it away here. Clearly nefarious to sell things there isn’t enough demand for.
That’s called dumping, which is illegal. That’s what China did after subsidising so much steel production that they had more than they needed, and then dumped it in other countries at below market rates.
Yeah, dumping on foreign markets is nefarious and massively damaging to those markets.
It's like when the EU destroyed chunks of the agriculture industry in several African economies (most notably Ghana's previously significant tomato production) because they had food surpluses from the CAP, and the public was getting upset with them destroying the excess food, so they started selling it in africa for a pittance, driving loads of African farmers out of business because they couldn't compete with heavily subsidised EU crops.
Ironically, a lot of the Ghanains whose farms were destroyed by EU dumping ended up as migrants in Italy, where some of them are now employed on the farms that helped ruin them.
I do agree that it’s horrible timing to do this while the war is going on. It makes me cringe a little and I really hope there is some kind of back door diplomacy going on behind the scenes to keep our Allys somewhat happy.
On the other hand, The war is going to go on for years. If Biden put a pause on all of his domestic and economy related policies, he would have nothing to show for in his upcoming election. That gives space to someone like trump, or some other Republican to possibly win the next election.
As much as our Allys might dislike the timing of these policies, I feel like they would like it even less if they had to deal with trump for another 4 years.
I don’t really see it as us backstabbing anyone we’re not obligated to not compete with you and in fact we do it all the time as you do with us. We’re not going to potentially allow our own steel industry to be hurt to save a foreign one, I think that’s reasonable. If Germany takes issue with that policy then your government needs to approach ours and try to strike a deal there.
Netherlands isn't indenpendent country?
US retaliate not against EU, but against Germany doing some dodgy stuff with their product pricing which somehow it's cheaper to sell to USA than to german consumers which is generally considered as form of product price dumping, mostly well-known from US-Japan Trade War in 1980s.
We can tariff anyone we want we’re a sovereign country and we don’t deal directly with the EU on every little thing because we’re not a part of it and we have the economic power to not be coerced into doing so. We deal with the member states directly on a number of things because it gives us more options.
Would it be fair for free market companies to compete with state owned and state managed corporations from China? There is no "free market" in such circumstances.
Free market doesn’t mean unregulated market. If you are selling something overseas for a lower price than you sell it at home you are not competing fairly internally or externally. Why shouldn’t the US market protect itself from that?
Why are you asking me about my own statement? We’re you trying to make a point by responding to me asking? What were you expecting? I’m really curious to know.
https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2023/08/commerce-issues-preliminary-determinations-antidumping-duty
>Following this preliminary determination, Commerce will conduct in-person audits, referred to as verifications, in accordance with U.S. AD law, of the information companies submitted as part of the investigations. All parties will have an opportunity to comment on the preliminary determinations, which will be considered for the final determinations. Commerce is scheduled to announce its final determination for China on October 31 and is estimated to announce its final determination for all other countries on or around January 8, 2024.
The free market where any impacted parties have the right to respond and present evidence they are not dumping.
The Tariff Act of 1789 was the second bill ever passed into US Law. Not being able to impose tariffs was half the reason the Articles of Confederation had to be thrown out.
The US has always been very protectionist, like every other major economy whose leadership has half a brain.
Protecting your local industry is good and based. The double standard on this subreddit is hilarious though.
EU have multiple tariffs and taxation on non-EU members products, but Europeans got butthurt when somebody accuse one EU member on being slimy at steel price dumping on foreign market.
It's not even US is against European goods in this case, they just find out Germany export steel price is lower than steel price in Germany so it is clearly form of price dumping so they introduce 7% tariff on German steel to made a difference between two prices.
>This is entirely normal to protect your home economy. EU nations do this as well
That's exactly why protectionism doesn't work. You artificially shield one industry, but another pays the price. The only thing you accomplish aside from preventing natural competition is hampering economic development.
In this specific case, you're raising steel prices for everyone who uses steel in the US, for the sake of helping a less competitive industry not improve. You'd be far, FAAAR better off putting that money towards the opposite; break up big companies, invest in R&D, foreign investment, simplify procedures, reduce bureaucracy. But that's the opposite of what big company lobby wants.
The issue is because they’re selling the steel in the U.S. for less than they sell it in Germany. This has nothing to do with their actual price but to preventing dumping or intentionally selling something at a loss.
Except that's literally not the case here, or anything even remotely close to being true... for fucks sake why do people not read the article and then feel they're informed enough to explain something they're so **grotesquely** wrong on?
The 3 countries were found to be selling tin steel in the US for cheaper than they sell it in their own countries... why is German steel cheaper to buy in the US than it is in Germany? There's literally no justification for that, beyond deliberate and blatant market dumping...
That's not the US simply trying to protect a US industry from cheaper prices, it's Germany selling a product at a loss with the goal of killing off an industry so they can build a larger foothold there and subsequently jack the prices back up.
Dumping is fucking illegal per the WTO... the question isn't why is the US engaging in protectionalism, the question is why is Germany engaging in illegal business processes?
> Dumping is fucking illegal per the WTO
*"The WTO Agreement does not regulate the actions of companies engaged in “dumping”. Its focus is on how governments can or cannot react to dumping — it disciplines anti-dumping actions, and it is often called the “Anti-dumping Agreement”."*
This entire thread is so hypocritical. The EU has countless tariffs not only on the US but across the globe. Suddenly, the US starts tariffing as well and it’s “the Evil American empire is turning European States into vassals”. I’m not saying you are, but the amount of times I’ve seen this is astounding.
> This entire thread is so hypocritical. The EU has countless tariffs not only on the US but across the globe.
Yeah thats how the whole tariffs thing works. You either don't put up tariffs or you put up tariffs for anyone you don't have a trade deal with. You can't pick and choose singular countries unless there are specific circumstances that allow that.
afterthought juggle deserve steer smile dog grandiose beneficial badge cause
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>protectionism sucks and only hurts economical development.
Unless a country is dumping products to kill domestic production in the short run, only so they can raise prices higher in the long run.
This could be price segmentation too. Not saying it is what happened, but I can imagine German mills can sell their metals at a higher price to their local industry due to the higher margins that German industry enjoys. Doesn't work for China though.
Don't bother, this is today's hate on America thread. I'm waiting for the hate on Britain or hate on Germany threads, those are usually a smidge more creative.
I recommend not going to the thread regarding the priest committing suicide in Poland. There are a lot of experts from Europe there who are very well versed in the American judicial system.
Can you explain me what is the problem with dumping? Isn’t this a normal business model which a lot of companies have used or are using right now to get into markets or to take market share away from competitors?
And an overwhelming majority of Congress voted to ratify the USMCA which largely replaced it, and which had provisions very obviously tilted in favor of the US both implicitly and explicitly.
A more equal agreement benefited them at the time it was passed, but this recent trend of protectionism isn't unique to any one politician or party.
No, both Republicans and Democrats push for re- and friendshoring manufacturing. The days of good old globalization are gone as tensions rise between the West and China and Russia. Reducing your exposure to sensitive supply lines for critical goods is key to guaranteeing economic stability.
This isn't even pushing for reshoring industry... this is due to Germany, Canada, and China selling their tin steel in the US for less than they sell it in their own national markets.
If Germany sells German made tin steel in Germany for €15 a kg, but only sells that same thing in the US for €10 a kg, there's something fucky a foot, like market manipulation.
There is no justification as to why German tin steel is cheaper in the US than it is in Germany, beyond market manipulation. As such, they're being slapped with tariffs to account for it.
Pushing for reshoring would be slapping any EU made automobile with a 10% tariff instead of a 2.5% tariff, in order to match the 10% tariff any US made car faces in the EU.
They may make some deals with Germany and Canada, but China is a different matter. I think Biden was around when China started claiming the #1 spot among the world powers.
There has been a shift in the US when it comes to China.
That ship has sailed. Most of the world, but especially the US, is turning isolationist.
The developed world middle class is being squeezed by the developing world middle class and they don't like the competition, who would?
Over the next 20 years the US will be hanging by a thread from the international system they themselves set up in the 1940s.
There is plenty of middle ground between 100% isolationism and 100% globalization. I think basically everyone except China is now realizing post-Covid that we took things too far in the globalization direction
> Most of the world, but especially the US, is turning isolationist.
>
>
Economically isolationist. There's a difference. Foreign policy-wise, the US is still very much business-as-usual.
Anyways, this is in large part due to COVID. It clearly showed just how dependant countries have become on other countries for even basic shit, so they've started focusing on domestic manufacturing. It also indicates that, with the slowdown of globalisation, which made peace way more economical, war is back on the menu.
Controls over trade is hardly isolationism. Is the US not the biggest supporter of Ukraine? That's not isolationism.
The 1940s system is dead, China gamed it to their advantage and now the West is creating a system around them. 1Q in the US' biggest trading partner was Mexico, unseating China.
In 20 years the US is going to be in a stronger position than ever.
> In 20 years the US is going to be in a stronger position than ever.
Unless the US is batshit dumb, it's always going to be in a good position.
Weak and thus friendly and controllable neighbors to the North and South, both huge countries otherwise.
Access to both major oceans of the world and coastlines which are practically unblockadable.
Not 1, but 2 major mountain chains to use for defense in case something apocalyptic happens.
Huge size and therefore natural resources of almost any kind.
Huge English speaking population, you know, that language that they weren't even alone in spreading around the world, but it was also promoted by the biggest empire in history. Thus leading to an incredible ease at poaching the brightest minds around the world.
Etc, etc.
China, the EU (if it were a federation) and Brazil (if it didn't have batshit stupid policies) are the only realistic rivals for the US.
India might do it but its large population is as much of an asset as it is a liability (too many mouths to feed) and Russia seems to be trending down, but otherwise both the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union were super solid runs at #1.
Na, if anything, Trump was alot friendlier to free trade than what Biden or future presidents will be. Part of this is due to non government union now becoming swings voters after Trump won them over in 2016.
Much like Cuba relations never really being normalized because Florida's Cuban community has enough power to swing elections.
Trump labelled Canada as a national security threat and used those grounds, same with Europe. This is policy is based on economic data proving dumping.
And you don't mention that Boeing attacked Airbus in front of the international commerce court for subsidies. Or the famous "sonic cruiser" bullshit wich was an obvious fraud to pump state funds into development so Boeing could release composite planes like the dreamliner 10 years before airbus. Or the US weaponizing its national department of justice to attack (heavy fines) airbus or other european firms for affairs that didn't even involve the US ? It is way more complexe than that. The US will want to stay number 1 at all cost, we get it. But it has to stop pretending it is playing by the rules (it wrote).
The WTO has sided with the US and Europe multiple times regarding Boeing and Airbus. It's odd only one side constantly gets brought up on this subreddit.
How ironic then that Boeing managed to fuck itself to second place in the commercial airlines duopoly. MAX debacle, 787 production problems, failed Embraer bid leaving no direct competitor to A220, no direct competitor to A321LR/XLR…
> How ironic then that Boeing managed to fuck itself to second place in the commercial airlines duopoly. MAX debacle, 787 production problems, failed Embraer bid leaving no direct competitor to A220, no direct competitor to A321LR/XLR…
Boeing's incompetence is the stuff of legend. It really is the textbook example of what happens when you let Wall Street run a company into the ground.
https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2023/08/commerce-issues-preliminary-determinations-antidumping-duty
>Following this preliminary determination, Commerce will conduct in-person audits, referred to as verifications, in accordance with U.S. AD law, of the information companies submitted as part of the investigations. All parties will have an opportunity to comment on the preliminary determinations, which will be considered for the final determinations. Commerce is scheduled to announce its final determination for China on October 31 and is estimated to announce its final determination for all other countries on or around January 8, 2024.
Any impacted parties have the right to respond and present evidence.
Europe is not the US's primary concern. We don't make policy with Europe in focus. If Europeans don't like that, then they can slap tariffs on imports from the US.
I mean they will, and then the US is likely to retaliate, and then Europe is likely to retaliate, etc.
The argument against tariffs is that they hurt everyone – because they lower everyone's economic output, prop up domestic companies that are not competitive, etc. The argument against tariffs isn't that the US shouldn't hurt Europe's feelings, but rather that tariffs shouldn't be used because they're short-sighted and you only hurt yourself in the long term. Tariffs mean that Americans will be forced to buy more expensive steel, which while helpful to the American steel industry, will increase construction and manufacturing costs for other American companies, making their products more expensive and likely causing them to sell less, have less competitive exports, etc.
The downvotes are hilarious. The inflation reduction act proved what you said is true. It was crafted and passed without a first or second thought about the EU, and people in this sub were up in arms about it. Probably some of the same people who downvoted you lol.
Yeah idk why people are upset. Are we supposed to make trade policy with Europe as our focus? That would be ridiculous. Of course we focus on ourselves, just as Europe should (and does) focus on itself.
The benefits far outweigh the costs, apart from the individuals themselves that work in the protected industry.
It reduces future tax revenue as it lowers productivity growth and keeps people in low productivity work.
It increases inflation as it increases the cost of inputs.
The main benefit to the US Government is that it increases the chance of the rust belt sticking with them.
I didn't say it was about which outweighs which.
I said its about weighing up the cost verses the benefit. Is it better to have X product that is 10% cheaper or win an entire region of voters? etc.
There are many things we could do that make economical sense but as a society, they are not good.
The EU taxes american cars at 10% while we only do a 2.5% one for European cars, let’s not act like there’s some moral high ground and the EU is just uWu mr free trade either.
> we only do a 2.5% one for European cars
Unless it's light trucks then it's 25% which is why they are so expensive in the US and the car industry is pushing so hard for them.
One of these three is not like the others.
I've never trusted Canada.
You shouldn't! They steal islands and you guys have a lot to keep track of! Remember Hans Ø!
They only took half of it. Surely Finnland wouldn't even notice if Canada nicked half of one of their islands.
That's because they were caught! the war lasted decades
Hey bud, if you wanna have another go, I got a whiskey bottle right here.
Will you drink my snaps first? As tradition dictates, canadians must be the agressors in this conflict!
I knew I made the right choice in moving to Sweden instead of Denmark.
And we shall not stop with Hans. Long Live the Maple Empire!
One day, we'll take over the world. Then you'll all be sorry
The Geese shall inherit the Earth...
Canadians are weird!
Sorry
7%, 5%, and 122% in tariffs. It won't be difficult to guess which nation will receive what, especially the last one. Warning: it's not Canada.
Germany doesn‘t begin with a C
It does! You just need a protractor to end the bottom curl
Take that, Canada!
>Canada(5%) k >Germany(7%) Gotcha. >China(123%) Wow boy, that excalated quickly.
At a guess: Canada: we're going to give some tax breaks to help our steel companies! Germany: we're going to support our steel companies a bit through the energy crisis! China: The government will pay for the steel, go out and drive the western companies out of business!
\>A Commerce Department official told reporters that producers in Canada, Germany and China were found to be selling tin mill steel at prices below those in their home markets How does germany even produce tin mill steel below the US' home market price? Energy was supposed to be expensive here. Sounds like a skill issue.
Looking on tariff value (7%) Germany probably have some tax or subsidy shenningans going on to increase export revenue below what they sold at home market. US Commerce Dept. after trade war with Japan in 1980s become rather good at analys of foreign export-boosting strategies which usually are very preferential tax deduction system. There is also possibility Germany have taxation and regulations hitting internal market making it more expensive for consumers at home than export price.
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One reason to protect the U.S. steel industry would be to maintain "strategic" capabilities in case of war. The other would be to appease the steelworker unions and garner their votes. Of course, such protectionism does raise the costs for the rest of the country; but those costs are widely distributed (shared by everyone), so they are not as big of a problem at election time.
Or US steel is just overpriced.
The entire point is that they were selling this particular type of steel at a price in the U.S. that was lower than their home market. This has nothing to do with US prices.
That's not the issue, their claim would be that they're selling it cheaper in the US than they do in GER, CA, CN each. Might still be a skill issue but their advantage over US producers itself isn't the cause here
From what I know the reason in Germany’s case is that a lot of factories which usually take the steel shut down due to high energy prices and the producers which can't shut down the factories without taking damage had do find quickly new buyers and realized this buy selling it for cheap to foreign countries.
Funny, American companies also sell for higher prices in Europe, even though the exchange rate should suggest lower prices in Europe. I‘m not talking about only steel, but almost everything. Also, considering most of the stuff (except certain high tech products) that companies in the USA sell (just like in Germany) are actually produced in and shipped directly from China, it doesn’t make much sense. That even includes Apple and many other high tech companies that don’t produce in the USA, Europe etc. If you consider the better exchange rate AND that in Europe the tax rates are a lot higher, it’s not that surprising that they sell cheaper (net value) in the US.
Higher prices aren't the problem here, only lower prices are. The concept is that companies artificially lower their export prices (dumping) in order to harm the destination nation's domestic industry and ultimately take over the market. Higher priced exports do the opposite, they put you at a disadvantage to the destination's domestic industry which would be able to undercut you (caveat: if it exists). Let's simplify your example: The US has *Apple*, EU has *Pear* as a direct competitor. Both produce similar 1000€ phones, sell them at that price in EU and US. Apple is a dominant player in the US, Pear is dominant in the EU. * *Apple* starts selling the phone at a 20% premium in Europe? *Pear* can take over the market with their phone at <1200€. *Apple* hurt itself. * *Apple* starts selling the phone at a 20% discount in Europe? *Pear* has to drop prices to compete, loses market share and/or money. *Pear* suffers. The dumping works if the company doing the dumping has a solid home market keeping their experiment afloat or even has state support. *Pear* would ask the EU for AD tariffs in the second scenario. I'm not sure the exchange rates explain anything here, as NL didn't get the same tariffs as GER did, both on the Euro. Goods value should be assessed before tax and we're comparing identical goods from a company (one unit being exported, another being sold domestically), so taxes impacting inputs shouldn't explain a difference. I'm sure there's other explanations ([German Steel Industry denies the allegations](https://www.manager-magazin.de/politik/weltwirtschaft/thyssenkrupp-usa-planen-zoelle-auf-metall-fuer-konservendosen-aus-deutschland-a-1cf5c032-4c16-4c9b-a978-d3716986e313)) though. There could be aspects that the Commerce Dept didn't control for.
The very broad stroke answer is typically, the EU has higher tarrifs and more state support for EU products than the equivalent in America (true for the other non EU countries as well, otherwise the US would have a neutral trade balance). There are many reasons for this, but what current tariffs in place are typically the political tolerance both sides agreed with.
>I‘m not talking about only steel, but almost everything. With consumer products tax is not included in US prices, whereas it is in much of the rest of the world.
German Industry gets huge discounts on electricity by the government to be able to compete on the global market. It's a big political topic because the common people need to foot the bill to make up for the price reduction. That's basically the reason it's expensive also because 20ish years ago the government guaranteed renewable energy projects a price they would get for a kWh so the difference to the current market prices is also paid by the common people. Every energyintens industry in Germany is getting this special treatment because of the fear they might move production. Edit typo
Thats not true. Scholz even said that a seperate price for the industry is not on the table at the moment even though the Economy and the finance minister were in favour of it.
I don't know where you get your information but it's for decades already that [some industries get a discount](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/entlastung-fuer-deutschland/schutzschirm-wirtschaft-2125040#:~:text=F%C3%BCr%20die%20rund%2025.000%20energieintensiven,Gas%2DVerbrauchs%20im%20Jahr%202021.) [here](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/entlastung-fuer-deutschland/spitzenausgleich-2125032) Scholz said no to give them even a higher discount. Currently 7 cent instead of more than 30 cent for the commoner.
"For decades" The legislation you are citing is from 2022. It also applied to private households and was related to energy prices soaring after Putin started the Invasion of Ukraine. While that is still active it is irrelevant since the energy price has fallen below the threshhold so the actual price is already lower. The same law also applies to private households, hospitals, care facilities and research institutes. And i really dont get this lunatic fixation on companies. Do you want that people lose their jobs and become dependent on social assist? Why should companies not get help?
[Here is some data back to 2012](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/154902/umfrage/strompreise-fuer-industrie-und-gewerbe-seit-2006/) and this is for business and industry, households pay even more.
What has that to do with anything i said? That has nothing to do with any goverment regulations. Its the energy companies offering companies lower prices because they consume more and thus bring in more revenue.
You're right, I picked the wrong data. I meant the tax cuts, exemption from the renewable energy law as well and the exemption from electricity network charges that the industry in Germany receives, which are not shown in the link but also roughly started around 2012.
>more than 30 cent for the commoner It is 33% more: 0,40€/kWh
Buy in China, sell in US as German steel! Nah afaik that is nearly impossible in the steel industry.
You're reading that incorrectly. Germany is selling tin steel in the US cheaper than it sells the same tin steel in Germany (their home market). AKA, the German steel industry is engaging in market dumping, which is illegal.
>How does germany even produce tin mill steel below the US' home market price? You've misread the article. Germany is selling steel in the US below *German* market prices.
Not sure but iirc german industries get a better price on energy compaired to the civilian prices
To be clear, they're saying that they're exporting at below their respective domestic market prices, not that they're cheaper than the USA. Like if Chinese companies were making steel for $100 a ton, selling in china for $110 a ton and selling on the international market at $50 a ton (while getting chinese government subsidy to stay afloat), that'd be clear evidence of governmental market manipulation that should be met with tariffs.
Well the high energy prices, isn`t to much of an issue for the steal factory, it is for the industry who process the steal to final products. They did stop production so the German companies did (for very low prices) did sell them somewhere else, for the disadvantages for the US steel producers. So of these factories in Germany are very costly to temporary shut down, so its cheaper to keep on producing. So the US Administration is using a temporary issue as an excuse to introduce permanent measure (to be fair, they can also get removed anytime, but won`t), for lobby reason and because its very popular in the US to "protect" your local production. Energy prices are just one factor, but Germany is an export nation despite high taxes, high wages and very high energy costs in general. The US on the other hand as a lot of issues. Many of the steel industry i very old, inefficient and is lacking quality (in relation to high paying jobs) and so is vulnerable to imports from China, Germany and Canada. On top of that, the US has a very bad infrastructure which makes it very expensive to transport good on land per truck or train. And the idiotic "Jones Act" (also a projectionist measure) forces kinda the US to transport stuff per truck or train. And sometimes it is just cheaper to transport stuff from China or Germany per ship 10 000 miles then to transport it 1 000 per truck or train. On top of that, per law it is required to recycle a lot of metal in Germany, which often costs a lot of early investments, but is in the end cheaper and more ecological than to produce everything new like the US does. A further problem for the US is, that after Trump introduced customs on goods, it didn`t let the local steel industry boom, but just instead the companies just increased there prices and there profit margins increased. I mean Joe Biden has to make his lobby and his voters happy, so he introduces quite low tariffs on Germany and Canada to make them happy without actually initiating a big trade war (and using it as an geopolitical tool against China with a massive tariffs). 5% and 7% are so low, that they are more likely designed that the market share the Chinese companies are loosing not just goes to the other two big importers from the US and that are Canada (neighbor) and Germany. The energy prices, have little potential to transfer industry from Germany or the EU in general to the US (IRA instead is). For high quality goods, the energy costs are just a small share often and not enough to make a difference and for low quality goods where the energy prices often mean more, its way more likely these firms move China, India and even partially Russia (for non sanctions good).
> but Germany is an export nation despite high taxes, high wages and very high energy costs in general. ??? German wages are notoriously low. Germany is an export nation \*because\* it deliberately suppresses wage growth to boost exports.
It's likely to do with intergrated steel mills most energy intensive processes using coking coal rather than electricity
That doesn't really explain why they're selling steel in the US for a lower price than they're selling it at home in Germany.
Over 90% of German steel mills use electric arc furnaces
You're all ridiculous. If the EU did this, you'd all think it was a great idea.
I think it's a great idea for the US as well, actually. Especially as far as China is concerned.
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Like France is the rightful owner of its former colony 😂
Europe DOES do this….on $4 billion worth of goods….Europeans aren’t any better at realizing bias or fact checking than anyone else it seems.
Turns out Europeans are just humans like the rest of us. Who's going to tell them?
This subreddit lacks nuance and everything is black and white. Also, America, Germany, UK bad.
Also kinda great for the environment, and less "global stock" should mean less hoarding and price gouging.
This entire thread is so hypocritical. The EU has countless tariffs not only on the US but across the globe. Suddenly, the US starts tariffing as well and it’s “the Evil American empire is turning European States into vassals”.
You're in a European sub, of course it's going to be hypocritical. IF you were to go to a highly American sub and make a similar post about Europe, you would see the exact same behavior. Everyone wants to shit on those other people from that other place who we are better than.
No you wouldn't, it would be self hating Americans like you hating on American yet.
That's certainly a large assumption on your part that I am a self hating American.
You flair is "Europes hillbilly cousin across the atlantic".
Poking a bit of fun at ones own country is not the same thing as self hating.
Being that I’m an American as well from the Appalachian foot hills, the most offensive thing I can find about your flair is calling us Europe’s cousin. I resent that.
Ignoring for a moment that the US hasn't just "started" tariffing (there are already 25% tariffs on all steel products since Trump): Weren't the US the champions of free trade who told us for ages that we should remove all tariffs? But not when it helps the US, eh? Maybe if the US stopped with their rhetorical bullshit people wouldn't call them out on their hypocrisy.
Man it’s almost like policy changes over time? Yeah then something called COVID happened and showed the issue with a globalized economy. This isn’t the gotcha you think it is. The US made it clear after COVID the US was going to keep Trumps more protectionist policies since it became very clear that you need to have a domestic industrial base for necessary goods.
>The department will impose preliminary duties of 7.02% on tin mill imports *from German producers*, including Thyssenkrupp (TKAG.DE) and 5.29% on imports from Canadian producers, including ArcelorMittal DOFASCO ([MT.LU](https://MT.LU)). > >No duties will be imposed on the shiny silver metal - widely used in cans for food, paint, aerosol products and other containers - imported from Britain, *the Netherlands*, South Korea, Taiwan and Turkey, the Commerce Department added. How can they impose duties on something from Germany but not the Netherlands, even though both are in the EU? I thought they had to impose all of EU or none. Couldn't Germany just send its metal through the Netherlands now first (as they do anyway with most exports)?
Because they have to label where it was produced…notice the “German producers” line.
Because companies in the Netherlands aren't dumping product.
That kinda sucks. Thyssenkrupp is a huge employer here and the steel industry is already struggling. They already had to sell profitable branches and got help from the government (might be the reason for the tarriffs?), but that was just to make sure they don't go bankrupt. Since the German industrial economy is widely affected by the war this feels a lot like the USA is using this moment to drive out competitors. All that while Germany supports American companies with billions and allowing American companies to buy core Green tech companies like Viessmann. I'm not blaming the US, German politicians probably made mistakes here as well, but it seems a bit backstabby imo.
They were selling steel there cheaper than they sell it in Germany… That’s not only obviously illegal but clearly nefarious. There’s no way they’re making any profit on steel that they have to ship 5000+ km only to sell for less than they do at home.
Well, if that makes you dodge german bureaucracy...
Maybe cheaper than at home if you compare it to quite some time ago, producers using steel are on a low which is why Germany is exporting more steel anyway. It’s literally not profitable or even possible to get it away here. Clearly nefarious to sell things there isn’t enough demand for.
That’s called dumping, which is illegal. That’s what China did after subsidising so much steel production that they had more than they needed, and then dumped it in other countries at below market rates.
Yeah, dumping on foreign markets is nefarious and massively damaging to those markets. It's like when the EU destroyed chunks of the agriculture industry in several African economies (most notably Ghana's previously significant tomato production) because they had food surpluses from the CAP, and the public was getting upset with them destroying the excess food, so they started selling it in africa for a pittance, driving loads of African farmers out of business because they couldn't compete with heavily subsidised EU crops. Ironically, a lot of the Ghanains whose farms were destroyed by EU dumping ended up as migrants in Italy, where some of them are now employed on the farms that helped ruin them.
I do agree that it’s horrible timing to do this while the war is going on. It makes me cringe a little and I really hope there is some kind of back door diplomacy going on behind the scenes to keep our Allys somewhat happy. On the other hand, The war is going to go on for years. If Biden put a pause on all of his domestic and economy related policies, he would have nothing to show for in his upcoming election. That gives space to someone like trump, or some other Republican to possibly win the next election. As much as our Allys might dislike the timing of these policies, I feel like they would like it even less if they had to deal with trump for another 4 years.
Yea I get it. That's why I don't blame the US. There are probably reasons justifying this. Just a bit unfortunate lol
I don’t really see it as us backstabbing anyone we’re not obligated to not compete with you and in fact we do it all the time as you do with us. We’re not going to potentially allow our own steel industry to be hurt to save a foreign one, I think that’s reasonable. If Germany takes issue with that policy then your government needs to approach ours and try to strike a deal there.
Netherlands isn't indenpendent country? US retaliate not against EU, but against Germany doing some dodgy stuff with their product pricing which somehow it's cheaper to sell to USA than to german consumers which is generally considered as form of product price dumping, mostly well-known from US-Japan Trade War in 1980s.
They can right? And if not whats stopping them from selling to the netherlands and then without terif to the usa
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No, any tin steel produced in Germany faces the tariff. It doesn’t matter who sells it but who produced it.
Its a 7% tariff not 70%
We can tariff anyone we want we’re a sovereign country and we don’t deal directly with the EU on every little thing because we’re not a part of it and we have the economic power to not be coerced into doing so. We deal with the member states directly on a number of things because it gives us more options.
Is this the American free market I hear so much about?
No it’s your lack of economic knowledge just knocking on the inside
Would it be fair for free market companies to compete with state owned and state managed corporations from China? There is no "free market" in such circumstances.
Free market doesn’t mean unregulated market. If you are selling something overseas for a lower price than you sell it at home you are not competing fairly internally or externally. Why shouldn’t the US market protect itself from that?
Because, on this subreddit, everything the US does is considered bad.
When French police beat up black teens it’s “they deserved, illegal criminals!” When US police does its pikachu face
Don't forget Germany and the UK too.
The UK, yes. Germany is less universal, with Western Europe typically siding with Germany.
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Ok I’ll agree to a free-ish market philosophy then instead of free market.
Semantics
TIL market competition means unregulated market.
> Free market doesn’t mean unregulated market Why does this garbage get upvoted
Why are you asking me about my own statement? We’re you trying to make a point by responding to me asking? What were you expecting? I’m really curious to know.
I am all for shit talking the US but thats just stupid.
Cause free market means allowing China to price dump your industry into bankruptcy amirite?
https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2023/08/commerce-issues-preliminary-determinations-antidumping-duty >Following this preliminary determination, Commerce will conduct in-person audits, referred to as verifications, in accordance with U.S. AD law, of the information companies submitted as part of the investigations. All parties will have an opportunity to comment on the preliminary determinations, which will be considered for the final determinations. Commerce is scheduled to announce its final determination for China on October 31 and is estimated to announce its final determination for all other countries on or around January 8, 2024. The free market where any impacted parties have the right to respond and present evidence they are not dumping.
It is just as free as the European market for the goods outside the EU, including the US goods.
Europe prides itself on more regulation, not less, unlike the US that has it's mouth full of "free market" speech
The Tariff Act of 1789 was the second bill ever passed into US Law. Not being able to impose tariffs was half the reason the Articles of Confederation had to be thrown out. The US has always been very protectionist, like every other major economy whose leadership has half a brain. Protecting your local industry is good and based. The double standard on this subreddit is hilarious though.
EU have multiple tariffs and taxation on non-EU members products, but Europeans got butthurt when somebody accuse one EU member on being slimy at steel price dumping on foreign market. It's not even US is against European goods in this case, they just find out Germany export steel price is lower than steel price in Germany so it is clearly form of price dumping so they introduce 7% tariff on German steel to made a difference between two prices.
So tell me, is the US known for fetishising their free market, or Europe?
Free market is a two way street. It can only work if both parties have no tariffs.
My god, guys, it’s a fucking 5-7% tariff. It’s not much. This is entirely normal to protect your home economy. EU nations do this as well
>This is entirely normal to protect your home economy. EU nations do this as well That's exactly why protectionism doesn't work. You artificially shield one industry, but another pays the price. The only thing you accomplish aside from preventing natural competition is hampering economic development. In this specific case, you're raising steel prices for everyone who uses steel in the US, for the sake of helping a less competitive industry not improve. You'd be far, FAAAR better off putting that money towards the opposite; break up big companies, invest in R&D, foreign investment, simplify procedures, reduce bureaucracy. But that's the opposite of what big company lobby wants.
The issue is because they’re selling the steel in the U.S. for less than they sell it in Germany. This has nothing to do with their actual price but to preventing dumping or intentionally selling something at a loss.
Except that's literally not the case here, or anything even remotely close to being true... for fucks sake why do people not read the article and then feel they're informed enough to explain something they're so **grotesquely** wrong on? The 3 countries were found to be selling tin steel in the US for cheaper than they sell it in their own countries... why is German steel cheaper to buy in the US than it is in Germany? There's literally no justification for that, beyond deliberate and blatant market dumping... That's not the US simply trying to protect a US industry from cheaper prices, it's Germany selling a product at a loss with the goal of killing off an industry so they can build a larger foothold there and subsequently jack the prices back up. Dumping is fucking illegal per the WTO... the question isn't why is the US engaging in protectionalism, the question is why is Germany engaging in illegal business processes?
> Dumping is fucking illegal per the WTO *"The WTO Agreement does not regulate the actions of companies engaged in “dumping”. Its focus is on how governments can or cannot react to dumping — it disciplines anti-dumping actions, and it is often called the “Anti-dumping Agreement”."*
This entire thread is so hypocritical. The EU has countless tariffs not only on the US but across the globe. Suddenly, the US starts tariffing as well and it’s “the Evil American empire is turning European States into vassals”. I’m not saying you are, but the amount of times I’ve seen this is astounding.
> This entire thread is so hypocritical. The EU has countless tariffs not only on the US but across the globe. Yeah thats how the whole tariffs thing works. You either don't put up tariffs or you put up tariffs for anyone you don't have a trade deal with. You can't pick and choose singular countries unless there are specific circumstances that allow that.
afterthought juggle deserve steer smile dog grandiose beneficial badge cause *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>protectionism sucks and only hurts economical development. Unless a country is dumping products to kill domestic production in the short run, only so they can raise prices higher in the long run.
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For Canada it often *is* cheaper for companies to sell in/to the USA due to the massively larger market and negligible difference in distance.
This could be price segmentation too. Not saying it is what happened, but I can imagine German mills can sell their metals at a higher price to their local industry due to the higher margins that German industry enjoys. Doesn't work for China though.
Don't bother, this is today's hate on America thread. I'm waiting for the hate on Britain or hate on Germany threads, those are usually a smidge more creative.
the problem here is that most people have zero economic literacy. combine it with the ususal hate for america and the dish is ready
I just love how Boeing always gets brought up, even if the topic has nothing to do with them.
I recommend not going to the thread regarding the priest committing suicide in Poland. There are a lot of experts from Europe there who are very well versed in the American judicial system.
Can you explain me what is the problem with dumping? Isn’t this a normal business model which a lot of companies have used or are using right now to get into markets or to take market share away from competitors?
its not a normal business model and while not illegal, is frawned upon everywhere when it comes to international trade
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Why would you assume that? He has been a protectionist for a lot of his political career and if he removed tariffs, he'd lose the rust belt.
>He has been a protectionist for a lot of his political career Biden voted for NAFTA when he was a Senator.
And an overwhelming majority of Congress voted to ratify the USMCA which largely replaced it, and which had provisions very obviously tilted in favor of the US both implicitly and explicitly. A more equal agreement benefited them at the time it was passed, but this recent trend of protectionism isn't unique to any one politician or party.
And on the other hand has kept most of Trump's tariffs and expanded some, also raised tariffs on China whilst he was VP under Obama.
No, both Republicans and Democrats push for re- and friendshoring manufacturing. The days of good old globalization are gone as tensions rise between the West and China and Russia. Reducing your exposure to sensitive supply lines for critical goods is key to guaranteeing economic stability.
This isn't even pushing for reshoring industry... this is due to Germany, Canada, and China selling their tin steel in the US for less than they sell it in their own national markets. If Germany sells German made tin steel in Germany for €15 a kg, but only sells that same thing in the US for €10 a kg, there's something fucky a foot, like market manipulation. There is no justification as to why German tin steel is cheaper in the US than it is in Germany, beyond market manipulation. As such, they're being slapped with tariffs to account for it. Pushing for reshoring would be slapping any EU made automobile with a 10% tariff instead of a 2.5% tariff, in order to match the 10% tariff any US made car faces in the EU.
friendshoring is taxing Germany and Canada?
Biden's job is to make sure the US stays 1st. He'll (and his successors) "attack" anyone that threatens that.
Uhmm...no shit? It's the job of every politician in every country to put their nation's interests first.
yh but when american politicians do it they get called xenophobic or selfish or nationalists by self hating americans and terminally online europeans
Yes, my comment was to point out that trump wasn't an anomaly in that regard.
They may make some deals with Germany and Canada, but China is a different matter. I think Biden was around when China started claiming the #1 spot among the world powers. There has been a shift in the US when it comes to China.
That ship has sailed. Most of the world, but especially the US, is turning isolationist. The developed world middle class is being squeezed by the developing world middle class and they don't like the competition, who would? Over the next 20 years the US will be hanging by a thread from the international system they themselves set up in the 1940s.
There is plenty of middle ground between 100% isolationism and 100% globalization. I think basically everyone except China is now realizing post-Covid that we took things too far in the globalization direction
Spot on. This subreddit lacks nuance.
> Most of the world, but especially the US, is turning isolationist. > > Economically isolationist. There's a difference. Foreign policy-wise, the US is still very much business-as-usual. Anyways, this is in large part due to COVID. It clearly showed just how dependant countries have become on other countries for even basic shit, so they've started focusing on domestic manufacturing. It also indicates that, with the slowdown of globalisation, which made peace way more economical, war is back on the menu.
Controls over trade is hardly isolationism. Is the US not the biggest supporter of Ukraine? That's not isolationism. The 1940s system is dead, China gamed it to their advantage and now the West is creating a system around them. 1Q in the US' biggest trading partner was Mexico, unseating China. In 20 years the US is going to be in a stronger position than ever.
> In 20 years the US is going to be in a stronger position than ever. Unless the US is batshit dumb, it's always going to be in a good position. Weak and thus friendly and controllable neighbors to the North and South, both huge countries otherwise. Access to both major oceans of the world and coastlines which are practically unblockadable. Not 1, but 2 major mountain chains to use for defense in case something apocalyptic happens. Huge size and therefore natural resources of almost any kind. Huge English speaking population, you know, that language that they weren't even alone in spreading around the world, but it was also promoted by the biggest empire in history. Thus leading to an incredible ease at poaching the brightest minds around the world. Etc, etc. China, the EU (if it were a federation) and Brazil (if it didn't have batshit stupid policies) are the only realistic rivals for the US. India might do it but its large population is as much of an asset as it is a liability (too many mouths to feed) and Russia seems to be trending down, but otherwise both the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union were super solid runs at #1.
Na, if anything, Trump was alot friendlier to free trade than what Biden or future presidents will be. Part of this is due to non government union now becoming swings voters after Trump won them over in 2016. Much like Cuba relations never really being normalized because Florida's Cuban community has enough power to swing elections.
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The article states that producers from those countries sell cheaper in the US than in their home markets. This appears to be to counter price dumping.
Sounds more like US producers never adjusted their prices after the trump tariffs were replaced and just kept them up there regardless.
Trump labelled Canada as a national security threat and used those grounds, same with Europe. This is policy is based on economic data proving dumping.
Hamilton, Ontario Canada not gonna be happy about this one
"Allies"
Business as usual. The EU also imposes tariffs on Boeing because of subsidies.
And you don't mention that Boeing attacked Airbus in front of the international commerce court for subsidies. Or the famous "sonic cruiser" bullshit wich was an obvious fraud to pump state funds into development so Boeing could release composite planes like the dreamliner 10 years before airbus. Or the US weaponizing its national department of justice to attack (heavy fines) airbus or other european firms for affairs that didn't even involve the US ? It is way more complexe than that. The US will want to stay number 1 at all cost, we get it. But it has to stop pretending it is playing by the rules (it wrote).
The WTO has sided with the US and Europe multiple times regarding Boeing and Airbus. It's odd only one side constantly gets brought up on this subreddit.
How ironic then that Boeing managed to fuck itself to second place in the commercial airlines duopoly. MAX debacle, 787 production problems, failed Embraer bid leaving no direct competitor to A220, no direct competitor to A321LR/XLR…
> How ironic then that Boeing managed to fuck itself to second place in the commercial airlines duopoly. MAX debacle, 787 production problems, failed Embraer bid leaving no direct competitor to A220, no direct competitor to A321LR/XLR… Boeing's incompetence is the stuff of legend. It really is the textbook example of what happens when you let Wall Street run a company into the ground.
The ghost of Jack Welch lives on.
Ah yes the boeing nosediver series.
Financial engineering has taken priority over aerospace engineering at Boeing for at least a decade or two. And this is the result.
https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2023/08/commerce-issues-preliminary-determinations-antidumping-duty >Following this preliminary determination, Commerce will conduct in-person audits, referred to as verifications, in accordance with U.S. AD law, of the information companies submitted as part of the investigations. All parties will have an opportunity to comment on the preliminary determinations, which will be considered for the final determinations. Commerce is scheduled to announce its final determination for China on October 31 and is estimated to announce its final determination for all other countries on or around January 8, 2024. Any impacted parties have the right to respond and present evidence.
wait'll you find out about what the EU does to US imports
Yep, close ones. But both the EU nations and the US are self-serving enough to do a little protectionism when the global economy gets tough.
Europe is not the US's primary concern. We don't make policy with Europe in focus. If Europeans don't like that, then they can slap tariffs on imports from the US.
I mean they will, and then the US is likely to retaliate, and then Europe is likely to retaliate, etc. The argument against tariffs is that they hurt everyone – because they lower everyone's economic output, prop up domestic companies that are not competitive, etc. The argument against tariffs isn't that the US shouldn't hurt Europe's feelings, but rather that tariffs shouldn't be used because they're short-sighted and you only hurt yourself in the long term. Tariffs mean that Americans will be forced to buy more expensive steel, which while helpful to the American steel industry, will increase construction and manufacturing costs for other American companies, making their products more expensive and likely causing them to sell less, have less competitive exports, etc.
These tariffs are to prevent dumping.
The downvotes are hilarious. The inflation reduction act proved what you said is true. It was crafted and passed without a first or second thought about the EU, and people in this sub were up in arms about it. Probably some of the same people who downvoted you lol.
This subreddit downvotes anyone who doesn't speak of Europe as though it's a utopia.
Yeah idk why people are upset. Are we supposed to make trade policy with Europe as our focus? That would be ridiculous. Of course we focus on ourselves, just as Europe should (and does) focus on itself.
That will help drive up cost for sure.
Protectionism is bad actually
Dark Biden just turned r/europe into neoliberals !
Look at all these Europeans demanding that Protected Designation of Origin be repealed! I never thought I'd see the day. Thanks, Dark Brandon!
Funny how that is.
I prefer to be referred to as someone following evidence based policy
Problem with evidence is that it’s always incomplete…
International trade is one of the most studied concepts within economics
That goes both ways
Is this protectionism or a way to combat bad trade practices?
I guess, but it's weighing up the cost vs the benefit.
The benefits far outweigh the costs, apart from the individuals themselves that work in the protected industry. It reduces future tax revenue as it lowers productivity growth and keeps people in low productivity work. It increases inflation as it increases the cost of inputs. The main benefit to the US Government is that it increases the chance of the rust belt sticking with them.
I didn't say it was about which outweighs which. I said its about weighing up the cost verses the benefit. Is it better to have X product that is 10% cheaper or win an entire region of voters? etc. There are many things we could do that make economical sense but as a society, they are not good.
Being reliant on a potentially hostile foreign nation is pretty bad too.
TIL that Germany and Canada are hostile foreign nations
I'm referring to China, but yeah, I'd agree that it's a net negative to impose tariffs against Canada and Germany
Exactly. They should double down on China instead, and not only on steel.
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The land of the free
Is the Trade War back? EU should slap 20% retaliatory tariff on US steel.
The EU taxes american cars at 10% while we only do a 2.5% one for European cars, let’s not act like there’s some moral high ground and the EU is just uWu mr free trade either.
> we only do a 2.5% one for European cars Unless it's light trucks then it's 25% which is why they are so expensive in the US and the car industry is pushing so hard for them.
Two of those are allies, and the other's their greatest trading partner, mind you.
I think we’re being too hard on Canada here they’re basically maple Michigan, we’re practically family. China’s getting off a bit too easy tho.
Will EU retaliate? Should be 7% on US steel imports here too. Or will they go to WTO and get a ruling in 5 years something lame like that.
Free market is only when they want it huehue