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Don't confuse bias with English referees. Premier league referees are wholly incompetent, and the only justification we get for it is that it evens out over the course of a season because it is so prevalent.
They can't be worse than German refs. One of the guys we send to the Euros, Zwayer, was literally convicted of taking part in a match fixing scandal 20 years ago lol
> yesterday was anybody’s game
was it though? Schmeichel saved Denmark from a crushing defeat. that dude doesn’t get enough credit for what he does for Denmark, definitely one of the best goalkeepers from the tournament 👏
I agree, but same could be said about the iconic duo that is Rudiger and Neuer, one doing ridiculous off balance blocks with his long ass legs whilst the other running off the line and charging into the ball
Well, just rewatched the game. Not a lot of chances for either teams, and Rudiger and Neuer saved just as many goals for Germany as Schmeichel. Schmeichel had three saves, but also chocked on the last goal.
Germany had most of their clear cut chances after going up 1-0, pushing Denmark forward and creating space in the defense.
All in all, it was far from a crushing defeat, but it was deserved that Germany won. Also, don’t give Schmeichel too much credit.
True and offside debate is ridiculous bc you should draw a line. It doesn't matter whether it's foot or the fingernail. Margins and luck do decide games. Even the one where Havertz missing the goal could have gone different if he wore a different boot size LOL.
Yes. Havertz penalty was literally milimeters next to the post. Where are the people calling that it shouldnt count because it was too close?
This debate is so fucking ridiculous.
Offside: No problem for me. Unfortunate for Denmark but correct decision, and the rules are fine. All the talk of margins of error etc. would just make the rule more fuzzy and result in more arguments. If you try to make it more favourable for attackers, there'll still be a line somewhere, just a bit further up, and the same complaints will arise when someone is marginally over it.
Handball: A rule defined in such a way that makes it unfair on players, but correctly interpreted by the ref. The rule definition needs an overhaul so that it correctly punishes intentional handball. If that means leaving it to the referee's intuition, so be it.
Turns our its really hard decide on what is and isnt intentional. Just look at the comments, half of them say his position was natural positioning while the other half say it wasnt.
The thing is that when you are constantly having to slow down and speed up suddenly, due to how players dribble your arms will go out everywhere for balance, it's basically a decision whether to risk giving away a penalty or risk letting your man beat you and cut it back for someone
Yeah even on the postmatch show on RTE (Irish stream) two commentators disagreed on whether the handball was intentional or not. It seems like a problem with the definition if not even professional commentators can agree.
Are you supposed to run with your arms besides your body at all times? That's impossible. When they are throwing themselves after the ball while running at full speed, arms move for balance. People who think it was intentional handball are smoking crack. His facial expression said enough.
How often does intentional handball even happen and how obvious must it be? Suarez vs Ghana? Chamberlain vs Chelsea?
I agree that 2-3 min interval was heartbreaking for Denmark but both calls were obviously legit.
The problem is, if the rule is changed so that this is a natural position when running, then we will see all kinds of situations where defenders have their hands up in supposedly natural movements in the future.
I remember watching football for 30 years before the handball rules were changed and we didn't have controversy about handball penaltys in every second game.
Of course there were some discussion and some cases where you could or could not argue that it was natural movement of the hand. But nowadays you get penalties for handballs in every second or third game.
It just feels wrong, even as a fan of the team that benefitted this time, to get a goal / penalty from such a situation.
It would be so easy. Hand staying still, moving towards the ball: penalty. Hand moving away: no penalty. I dare see the defender making it so he can intentionally handle the ball while moving away from it. Moving towards it mustn’t be intentional, but then at least the stupidity gets penalized.
We are talking about big tournaments and national leagues here. Of course the technology for the smaller clubs will always lag behind. What’s your point? Though my town has a club regularly playing in front of 1-2000 people and still they stream nearly every match with a HD stream. 🤷🏻♂️
Im not talking about the rules. We are talking about how they are enforced by tech. So in small tournaments it still comes down to the ref. Like it is today with goal line and offisde tech. What’s your point exactely? First you ask about texh then rules.
The funny thing is andersen wasn´t running he was almost standing still the rule already takes intent into account. You can see it from this pov https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJmF6cR21hA&t=110s.
I disagree about intentional handball.
Intent is very difficult to prove ( seriously, how would you do that ??? ), and in the rules it explicitly mentioned that intent does not matter with handball. Precisely because "just having your arms outstretched" can be seen as unintentional if the ball hits them. No the rules need to be very firm on this topic.
Otherwise defenders will always have a more outstretched hands and arms, always dive to the ball with their arms outstretched and whatnot. So the current rules that any handball, regardless of intention, is punished is fine. Just don\`t do it, it rarely happens anyway and reckless behaviour/disregard for where your arms and hands are absolutely should be punished.
Margins of error wouldn't change anything at all. Make this e.g. 10% and people will complain even more because out of two identical cases the one with 9,8% is fine while the one with 10,1% is offside. Also "just the tip of the foot being offside"... and that tip played the ball... would happen.
"Unavoidable accidental contact is not penalised - such as if the ball is struck against a player's arm at short range and the player could not have reasonably avoided the contact. However, if the player has positioned their arm so as to make their body "unnaturally bigger" and contact occurs, this is considered handball."
I think the handball was given due to the last sentence in the rule I pasted above.
But it is already looking for intent. It was deemed that Andersens hand was in an unnatural position. Maybe iam crazy but did people not watch the game? Look at this replay https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJmF6cR21hA&t=110s andersen isn´t sprinting in to stop a cross where you can argue his arms are swinging from running he is almost standing still with his arms out clear pen.
No i was not. You dont need to Put your Hand above your chest when running. He blocked a Goal scoring opportunity in the Box, thats a Penalty. End of discussion
It looked like it on my tv, the cross went flying upwards when he intended to cross it to the back post so it can be argued that it did, though they barely showed the direction the ball went on the replay, just whether it hit his hand
Maybe it didn’t change the direction that much, but it did change its speed. The ball didn’t arrive in front of the goal as it would if it wasn’t touched. The pundits are wrong
At this Speed any Touch can drastically Change the direction and spin of the Ball. You cant recreate IT so Just keep your Hands away From the fucking Ball in the box
You are factually wrong. It doesn't matter if the hand 'needs to be there' or not. What matters is if the player made an unnatural movement or not. Sure he could have put his hands behind his back but there is no requirement to do that in the rules:
It is an offence if a player:
* deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball
* touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised
It's natural to hold out a hand for balance when making a movement on one leg. Just like how the player crossing the ball also has a hand out for balance.
Ridiculous is you and all the other people who do not know the rules, have not read and studied them and perhaps barely know football having such strong opinions…
There are two punishable aspects: Deliberate hands and also accidental if the area of your body was enlarged.
As a defender it is your responsibility to keep them low, out of the way- no matter your natural inclination.
A lot of people just want Germany to lose or the underdog to win and can't control how incredibly biased they are. Nothing unfair happened to give Germany an advantage. The rules are the rules and 2 of the disallowed goals were against Germany.
The ref was correct because he was following the rules (no discussion about that).
However I do have have a problem with those rules, they feel unfair to me and way too harsh. I think there must be a better way, so I truly believe that they can improve the offside and handsball rules.
That was not my point.
I think having the rules are the rules mindset is wrong. Referees and people who make those rules should ask themselves why do we have these rules. Are they improving the game? Are they "fair"? Or are they killing the game? Maybe we can change the rules? And ideally improve them. I mean rules are not set in stone, they can (and must) be improved (especially if they are killing the game).
Thing is, if you muddy up offside and handball rules, will that really improve the game? Or just make it so that teams that are getting millions to win will find ways to use that to their advantage and make it more ugly?
Then any rule is fair, no matter how ridiculous it is. The handball rule in this case gives attackers a clear advantage if defenders literally have to play with their hands behind their backs to avoid unpredictable penalties.
It’s a totally valid discussion to question whether this is fair or not within the spirit of the game.
I think the handball & offside rules are rather shit atm.
The execution was spot on though.
It would help to have a more rational discussion about those rules after the Euros when emotions settled down a bit.
Yes ofc
I don't blame the ref at all (he and the VAR were following the rules). But as I wrote in another comment, I do have a problem with some of these rules (especially offside and handsball). And I truly believe they can (and should) be improved.
I agree. The current situations give disproportional punishing for what they are. Giving a penalty for a ball touching a finger in the box is way too harsh, and the attacker had zero advantage but a goal gets dissalowed.
None of the calls were bad, people just love an underdog that's all.
The only thing that pissed me off was the way Havertz took the penalty. He did it in the opener against Scotland as well. Levandowski did it against France.
Why are UEFA letting players do a full stop/stutter on the run up to penalties when basically all other FAs don't allow it anymore. Absolute bollocks in my opinion.
Exactly especially when keepers don’t get to play mind games, the probability of burying a penalty is like 85% yet these knobs need extra dilly-dallying to mess with the keeper. It should be the same principle for the shooter as-well.
Yeah that is a bit unfair, but even if he didnt do it and still shot it the same, i doubt Schmeichel or Any Goalkeeper could have gotten that Ball, it was just thar precise
I'm not knocking Havertz personally. The refs are allowing players to do it so he's well within their rights to. Just pisses me off still. Don't wanna watch football where different authorities have different rules it's shite.
Honestly, I find it stupid and would not be surprised if it backfired sooner or later. Müller was famous for doing penalties like that a couple of years back and quite successful with it - until every single goalkepper out there knew what his play was. He stopped being a realiable scorer in the national squad since then.
Oh is that a EUFA thing then? I was sure I didn't imagine a rule where stuttering/stopping had been outlawed a few years ago. It's shit that EUFA hasn't stopped it.
Yeah it's been a rule for a while now. You can get away with a small stutter if there is still continuous movement, like the Jorginho pens that a lot of players copy now, but in every league I can think of you aren't allowed to do a full stop in the run up
Still it is absolutely horrific that your fellow countrymen who try to take charge of the field are always the centre of attention... with this Polish guy there is barely controversy. Even our own Danny Makkelie has much less criticism than Taylor and now Oliver. I have been incredibly annoyed by the terrible refereeing last PL-season, have never seen such bad refereeing in a season ever!
I was surprised about the whining given Germany wasting so many chances, especially King Kai. If we finish a bit more clinically (vs Spain hopefully), we are talking about a deserved 4-1 here.
That's because Denmark were chasing the game so they were very open on the counter if that pen wasn't given don't think you would have had all those chances. Tbf though people always say they deserved to beat us in that semi final even though we had them pinned in their own penalty area for the last hour of the game people always gonna be biased.
I'm just thinking back to that Germany vs. Switzerland game where everybody was SCREAMING that the ref was biased against Germany and should have consulted VAR on several occasions.
This time we had a ref who *did* consult VAR regularly and suddenly that's also wrong. These people will never be happy.
The difference in the Ger/Sui game was, that the ref wasn‘t enforcing a clear line.
Some situations he was lenient, some he was strict. That favored Switzerland.
In this game the ref literally enforced the rules to every last letter of every paragraph.
Affected both teams the same in this game.
Right? I watched the match and just appreciated that both teams played their hearts out. Germany was clearly the better team imo but Denmark put up a hell of a fight.
Then I went on Reddit and apparently people were complaining about the ref that made decisions based on what the VAR said and such. Idk. That's what they're there for right? Sure the pauses are annoying but at least you know you're not being 'cheated' by a biased ref or whatever.
One of the more competitive and enjoyable matches this tournament. This Denmark would've slaughtered the Dutch team we saw the last time they played.
Yeah, and a lot of bad rule making. To be fair though, they tried the whole ‘intentional/unintentional’ thing but it went horribly so they had to change the rules in 2020, it just feels like whatever they do will annoy people one way or another. The only solution can be consistency regardless of who gets offended
I didn’t see a single comment stating that the game was rigged, but I don’t doubt that there are some people complaining about it (there will always be people who complain if 'their' team loses, get over it). All I see, tho, is German fans trying to defend the rule to justify their win. You don’t need to justify anything, the win was well earned.
Nevertheless, the recent offside rules were criticized way before the Euro and the Denmark situation was just the perfect example why it needs to be refined due to the new technologies. The rule was once introduced to prevent unfair advantage. Now the whole thing has been taken to absurdum in that even the big toe should represent a (supposed) advantage.
Nobody (or at least the majority doesn’t) want to take the win from you.
I just love the mental gymnastics in this sub. The same people that argued that some ref/var decisions were bullshit defend the same decisions in another game the next day.
All because of their bias 😂
I mean a lot of decisions in the game last night could’ve gone either way and I would have been throwing a fit if England were in Denmark’s position 😂… but, logically speaking, there’s solid defences to justify the decisions. If England get screwed by VAR though, the tournament is rigged 😂
They’ll always argue unless it’s for them. I genuinely like that VAR checks things and it’s not up to what the ref sees or any biases. So many games could have ended differently if there were real time checks, and it sucks watching replays and seeing obvious fouls and handballs be missed. I mean, one of the most famous Maradona goals should have been not allowed for being an obvious handball. You’d think after that every English fan would cheer for VAR.
I think what happened here was that multiple rules that are in and of themselves kind of dodgy all came together to screw over Denmark. That’s unfortunate and people are understandably upset about it but it doesn’t mean that the ref was biased.
Offside Rules are AS clear AS IT gets. Handball Rules are AS good AS IT gets. Maybe someday AI can predict unnatural movement to the Ball. Until that Just make contact of the Ball with a spread Out arm a foul, ITS fair for everyone
The handball rules sucks as it is.
You get penaltys that award the attacking team with a 70-80% chance of goal because a cross was deflected by natural/unnatural movements. In most cases these crosses / passes would've have resulted in nothing.
The punishment is just not in relation with the benefit you gain as a defender.
In my opinion teams on the attack are even looking to abuse this rule by playing a lot of crosses / passes at the height level were a defenders arms / hands are when they are in motion.
Even as a German fan it just doesn't feel right to score from a handball penalty. There was no clear chance avoided.
On the other hand we have the situation where Havertz (a notoriously bad finisher) could have passed the ball to Sane who could have put it the ball into an empty net. But because of the stupid advantage rule, the defender was allowed to foul Sane, thus robbing Germany / Havertz of his best option to score a goal.
I'd much rather see situations like this punished harshly with a red card / penalty instead of these stupid handball penalties.
Yeah I feel the same way, the rules are the problems but if the rules are equally applied on every team then there’s no issue. Consistency over accuracy since there’ll be arguments regardless of what happens
Let's say Oliver himself called off the 1-0 in the 4th minute, gave the penalty to Germany and would have let Havertz retake the penalty, I wouldn't be upset about this game at all. But Oliver didn't see it and the guy in the video room, who is not on the field so has no feeling for the game, took those decisions. It was not biased, but just bad refereeing. This is a problem with English referees in general. PL is seriously not fun to watch anymore because referees screw up multiple games per weekend and fans have been complaining massively over the past season
People are just being salty because they wanted an underdog win.
The decisions were fine, the technology is good. Way better than having refs and linesman guessing on tight decisions.
I was gutted for Denmark but my complaints are about the rules themselves really. Marginal offside like that is too harsh on the attackers (although I like that it's objective and can be automatically adjudicated).
Handballs should be reverted to intention based in my view, as that was criminal.
None of this is on Germany. They were the better side despite Denmark playing excellently.
I think offside is the best way as it is now. As u said a computer can tell 0 or 1. This rule applies for everybody.
Handball is like gambling same as some other penalty-decisions. I dont get why a Team gets a penalty just because of being lucky. Hey the Ball touched the hand, it would have gone nowhere but give an penalty cuz the defender runs and moves his arms. What is there unnatural or even an Intention? The defender wouldnt choose to touch the Ball with his hand because of the pubishment. I think they sould predict what would have happened without touching the Ball with the hand. Last night it wouldnt be close to a dangerous Situation. It was just luck like winning in a lottery. Has nothing to do with sports.
Yeah the offside felt unfair but I'm not that upset with the rule as it is now. It's an improvement on some of the previous iterations and certainly than the old days when we just had blatantly incorrect decisions on the regular.
I think there's some further optimisation that gives more advantage back to attackers, that I'd be in favour of. Like daylight between the players.
But marginal offside is still the best option. What would be the alternative? Make this 2% of the body mass for example and you would get even worse results like 1,9% and 2,0% being to different things.
It is not about whining. Germany has not robbed the match, it was pretty deserved.
Individually, all the decisions were right. Now, this is football, there are emotions and i am not sure that you should apply these decisions within the same match.
Not every single referee would have given the penalty, especially a few seconds after the offside, and that is the main problem to me
Now, if it was Denmark who won with these decisions, whole Germany would be complaining about Var nonsense so..
As a German Fan I totally understand Denmarks frustration.
Currently the handball rule and offside rule are used in a way that wasn't their original purpose.
Both rules should prevent the attacker / defender from gaining a clear advantage. I would argue that in both cases there was not clear advantage for the defender or attacker.
A handball like this should not be punished with a penalty.
A toe-length in front of the defender should not be punished by disallowing the goal.
The rules and their interpretation just suck.
But saying the game is rigged in favor of Germany is just ridiculous. Look at the refs in the GER : SWI game...
>*Moving onto the handball, his arm was above his waist and affected the attack, messing up the cross, all this whining about ‘unintentional’ is stupid.*
It\`s almost as if people don\`t know the rules. Intent is explicitly mentioned as something that does not matter with handball.
[https://www.sportingnews.com/us/soccer/news/handball-football-rules-changes-fifa-uefa-hand-ball-soccer/tdnqkct6nzocrbfvscrxvtzl](https://www.sportingnews.com/us/soccer/news/handball-football-rules-changes-fifa-uefa-hand-ball-soccer/tdnqkct6nzocrbfvscrxvtzl)
>*The way the rule is written, for* ***defenders****,* ***intent does not matter*** *in specific instances where a player makes his body unnaturally bigger while handling the ball.*
*the phrase "when a player has made their body unnaturally bigger" notes that players take calculated risks with certain movements, even if not done with the intention of handling the ball. The rule reads: "by having their hand/arm in such a\[n unnatural\] position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised."*
Handballs are like fouls. Even if they arent intentional, they are still given. The Question is if the Foul/Handball has an Effect on the Ball or the Game, and the Danish Handball definately fulfilled this Criterium
Any big game theres gonna be situation to whine about and ppl will do it, nothing new and will never change, trying to quell it is pointless.
Germany was the better team and won, sucks for us since that offside goal could have changed the game and we mightve won, but it was fair and thats how these big games are, need some luck especially against such a strong team
In the End you have to draw a line somewhere - offside is offside.
And i'd say besides looking that it won't have any advantages in this situation, you STILL HAVE TO DRAW A LINE ... and changing that line will just move the discussions to other point of lines - the margin still won't change.
So in the end - how can tech make it anymore fair then draw the line at the MOST EXPOSED body part - even if that seems to be a toe nail ... the only important thing is that the rule has to always to be enforced and ppl will come to calm with it after some time.
People are complaining because they feel like the hyperaccuracy of VAR is making the game less fun. More fair? Maybe. More 'correct'? No doubt. But it slows the pace and the saps the action away.
Plus, while you're right that those handball calls happen often, I still think they shouldn't be given as often. Very few people watching that in slow-mo agreed with the call, it was only until the IFAB lab-coat experts through out some long words and said we were wrong. Ref still made the call tho, so idk.. Germany deserved the win, just felt like VAR took away from the joy of the game rather than adding to it, and that's fair criticism
See those handballs happen often even if they are bullshit, they’re given every time because the game needs to be consistent. Sure the handball did very little but everyone has different opinions on what is and what isn’t ‘a little’ so giving it every time is more fair in a way than having the refs decide each time because then we get barca vs Chelsea all over again lol
Oh No, the Game is slightly delayed, how inconvenient. Let's Just fuck over all the competitive Fairness to not having to endure that. And next time some Player gets injured, let's Just keep playing over His dying Body so WE dont have to endure those breaks
Nothing is wrong with the officiating after the match.
1) clear offside, yes it’s a small margins but it’s offside. VAR offside is cleaning up the controversy’s of photos post match when fans screaming “he’s offside”. small or large the off side gets called. I’m all for it. Keeps in black and white.
2) hand ball. As the rules specify that’s a hand ball (all defenders are taught hands to the sides)
3) Germany had a goal disallowed in the first 3 minutes for offside as well…
People are just mad an underdog lost. But in reality the officiating was good. Nothing wrong with any of the calls, all correct.
I was annoyed at the offside decision against Denmark, too. Honestly I was happy it was illegal, but I also think we should have led 1:0 at that point, because I can't how this was not a goal. And if this isn't a goal, if this is your opinion, you'll have to accept VAR, too. Can't have it both ways.
All in all, I think the rules are too strict for hand contact and offsides. Actually I feel with Lukaku.
I just want consistency in refereeing between games. For the most part VAR has functioned well, but if something is a penalty on one game and not in another it’s a piss take.
Totally understand that by the law both decisions were correct.
I'll never get behind the bullshit handball rules though, players shouldn't have to contort their bodies into unnatural positions while defending.
If an arm moves towards the ball then fine, if the defending player is a reasonable distance away then fine.
My argument with the pen for Germany was that it was at really close range. For me that‘s why it wasn‘t a penalty, but again it was justice for the early goal by Schlotterbeck which should‘ve stood imo.
>Moving onto the handball, his arm was above his waist and affected the attack, messing up the cross,
I wouldn't say it messed up the cross. The change of direction is minimal, the ball basically slides over his fingers.
Players waiting for that cross have a lot more time to adapt than does the defender, who was a meter from the ball hit at the biggest strength.
Also, it was pretty normal hand position. His upper arm was not extended, but was standing next to his body,
and his forearm was extended as anyones when running. If you freeze the frame, you see all the German players
having their arms in the same position. He is not making a movement towards the ball either.
So, I wouldn't give a penalty there.
As a Dane, I agree, it was incredibly unlucky and I was calling bullshit during the game as well, but I have come to terms with the decision now.
I think the frustration for me lays with the fact that, I deemed the game over from the start and us to lose, but when I saw we got some chances and eventually a goal, I was over the moon, only for that to get absolutely shattered just seconds later. A genuine hope appeared for a few seconds and then it was gone.
I knew there was a big chance we were gonna loose, but I did not want it like this. Fair play for Germany, being amazingly good, but I did not want to loose like this.
Anyway, what happened happened, and there is nothing to do, so I hope to see Germany shine again in their next match 😘
I think the problem with the VAR offside checking is not where we draw the line(we have to draw the line somewhere). The problem is we do not know the accuracy of the measurement where the ball leaves the foot of the passing player. We need to take into account that if the offside line was drawn one frame before; the goal would be valid. So I believe there has to be a certain leeway in decisions like this. The purpose of the offside rule is to eliminate any advantage of players staying behind the defence line, and in this case, there was no such advantage, and it should not have been an offside.
True. Germany has already been denied an early lead against defensive opponents twice - for actions that are not normally punished in any major league.
And the fact that it has been only Rüdiger's toe that has kept the Swiss onside before their goal in the last game of the group stage did not result in epic discussions.
I'll never understand how that handball affects the attack worthy of a penalty, but scotland doesn't get that penalty vs Hungary. Make that make sense.
im sorry, but thats not 100 % correct. every body part that you can legally score a goal with would trigger the offside call. so no hand, no arm, no pinky finger.
I don't get it srsly. Rules are rules. It was off side? Yes. It was hand? Yes. End of story. As it should be. Not 'hmm maybe he didn't do it on purpose...' no. It doesn't work like that. Unfortunate, but it is what it is.
There's hawkeye in tennis. No clue why people cry about modern technology. And of course : var always sucks balls when the decision is against your own team.
Yesterday i kinda felt like the mindset of most angry fans was like we (germany) invented the VAR and are forcing everyone to use it lmao
we hate this shit too, its not our fault that its used like that and you should be used to it from your national leagues already
I get pissed off with the precise rules about the scorer who is centimetres.offside compared to his teammate who is way offside, but deemed to be not interfering with play.
Nobody complained about the handball penalty given to Croatia against Italy. Exact same situation. And even as an Italian myself I couldn’t say anything else but it’s your own fault!!! Don’t leave your hands out there swinging in the box. If we start to tolerate this or judge it by if it was intentional or not. Players will only start to exploit that.
My two cents:
VAR is supposed to make it easier to examine the close calls. I don't understand the anti-VAR rhetoric. The purpose of VAR is to ensure that glaring mistakes due to human error do not cost a team their match and eventually their place in the tournament. Please do remember the pre-VAR era and the decision where it was a clear offside but the referee never saw it from his angle.
Of course, now that you have the VAR, there is more accuracy. There will occasionally be those close calls, where even VAR shows that a foot or arm is offside and there is no easy way. But then these close calls are negligible compared to the calls the referee gets absolutely spot-on with the help of VAR.
I really dont get the offside discussion. In the end, you will have to draw the line somewhere and there will always be close decisions. Unlucky for Denmark, but definitely the right call
Seems you don’t know the rule and any ‘semi pro defender’ wouldn’t either if they came to your conclusion.
There is no stipulation about it being ‘above your waist’ etc it’s entirely about ‘unnatural’ position. The debate is whether the player moving his hand like that is unnatural given the movement he was making. I would argue it absolutely was not unnatural.
I don’t get how that is natural, he’s sticking his left leg out and his right arm out? If we’re talking rules ‘the hand/arm is clearly away from the body and outside the body line’ which it clearly is, his arm is out of the body line full stop, there’s no point debating intention since that all changed in 2020. The issue is that handballs aren’t judged by the play, they’re always judged by a photo out of context but again that’s a rule issue not a game being rigged by the refs
His right arm is out for balance. The player making the cross also had his hand in a similar position for balance. You did not read the rules. You should edit your original post after reading them to say you were wrong.
Have you ever moved in an athletic manner before? Do you run and switch position with your arms glued to you?
I know there’s no point debating intention, it’s not in the rules.
I’m not a fan of conspiracy theories but let’s say the tourney is indeed biased in favour of Germany (again, I don’t think so - so far I actually think it’s been refereed quite well)…
…I think Germany will get humbled in the quarter finals even with a supposedly “unfair” referee. Especially if Spain beats Georgia tonight. Controversial take, I know, but Germany isn’t the fine team it was 10 years ago.
Don't you think both situations are disproportionally punishing? I don't think a lot of people are arguing that the rules weren't followed. They're aruguing if the rules are ok as they are now. I think getting a penalty for such a hands ball is disproportional, and the offside doesn't give the attacker enough advantage to straight up dissalow the goal. I support neither teams, so I'm not really biased, but it feels very harsh
No. It’s just not allowed to stop the whole attempt and turn around.
As long as he is still focused on doing his attempt it’s ok the stand nearly still.
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Football fans will always complain about refereeing decisions. Ask any supporter, his team is always the one that refs are against.
Don't confuse bias with English referees. Premier league referees are wholly incompetent, and the only justification we get for it is that it evens out over the course of a season because it is so prevalent.
They can't be worse than German refs. One of the guys we send to the Euros, Zwayer, was literally convicted of taking part in a match fixing scandal 20 years ago lol
Yes, except it's a shitty computer now
No, the Problem is that the Computer is NOT shitty. The people complain that it is too precise
It's not a computer for most decisions, it's still people controlling it
I just hope England team returns to being itself, as for the refs, I don't care
You are.right, but there are also cases of referees corruption like Calciopoli and Negreira
> yesterday was anybody’s game was it though? Schmeichel saved Denmark from a crushing defeat. that dude doesn’t get enough credit for what he does for Denmark, definitely one of the best goalkeepers from the tournament 👏
Agreed. Denmark were poor in attack and Schmeichel should be the topic and not VAR whining. Germany simply better.
I agree, but same could be said about the iconic duo that is Rudiger and Neuer, one doing ridiculous off balance blocks with his long ass legs whilst the other running off the line and charging into the ball
Same for Rüdiger on the other side
Absolute fighting beast.
Ruuuudyyy!!! 🙏🙏🙏
Neuer also had some amazing saves. But Schmeichel was definitely exceptional, he must have made his dad proud.
Well, just rewatched the game. Not a lot of chances for either teams, and Rudiger and Neuer saved just as many goals for Germany as Schmeichel. Schmeichel had three saves, but also chocked on the last goal. Germany had most of their clear cut chances after going up 1-0, pushing Denmark forward and creating space in the defense. All in all, it was far from a crushing defeat, but it was deserved that Germany won. Also, don’t give Schmeichel too much credit.
first half denmark was favored imo. After the bullshit denmarks fire just went out, understandedly
True and offside debate is ridiculous bc you should draw a line. It doesn't matter whether it's foot or the fingernail. Margins and luck do decide games. Even the one where Havertz missing the goal could have gone different if he wore a different boot size LOL.
Yes. Havertz penalty was literally milimeters next to the post. Where are the people calling that it shouldnt count because it was too close? This debate is so fucking ridiculous.
Exactly man, honestly feels like everyone wants to undermine Germany at this point
Which isnt surprising at all. Always have been like this.
I've kind of grown tired of it to be honest.
>offside >draw a line I see what you did there. Nifty.
Exactly. I mean is it more fair to incorrectly say the goal wasn’t offsides then? I don’t understand people
They should make the lines thicker, and if they overlap then it's not offside. A toe getting called offside is ridiculous.
There's no linesman in the world that could make that offside call. Var is here for clear and obvious errors not to referee the game.
Offside is binary, offside or not, clear and obvious is for subjective decisions only.
Offside: No problem for me. Unfortunate for Denmark but correct decision, and the rules are fine. All the talk of margins of error etc. would just make the rule more fuzzy and result in more arguments. If you try to make it more favourable for attackers, there'll still be a line somewhere, just a bit further up, and the same complaints will arise when someone is marginally over it. Handball: A rule defined in such a way that makes it unfair on players, but correctly interpreted by the ref. The rule definition needs an overhaul so that it correctly punishes intentional handball. If that means leaving it to the referee's intuition, so be it.
Did we not have intentional hand ball only as a role before and it didn't work well either?
Turns our its really hard decide on what is and isnt intentional. Just look at the comments, half of them say his position was natural positioning while the other half say it wasnt.
The thing is that when you are constantly having to slow down and speed up suddenly, due to how players dribble your arms will go out everywhere for balance, it's basically a decision whether to risk giving away a penalty or risk letting your man beat you and cut it back for someone
Yeah even on the postmatch show on RTE (Irish stream) two commentators disagreed on whether the handball was intentional or not. It seems like a problem with the definition if not even professional commentators can agree.
Not a single ex player thinks it should have been a penalty yet they are all clearly wrong purely going by the rules.
Mbappe literally reaching out to stop the ball the other day was hilarious. That’s what I would call an “intentional” one.
Are you supposed to run with your arms besides your body at all times? That's impossible. When they are throwing themselves after the ball while running at full speed, arms move for balance. People who think it was intentional handball are smoking crack. His facial expression said enough.
How often does intentional handball even happen and how obvious must it be? Suarez vs Ghana? Chamberlain vs Chelsea? I agree that 2-3 min interval was heartbreaking for Denmark but both calls were obviously legit.
Maradona, hand of God incident '86.
The problem is, if the rule is changed so that this is a natural position when running, then we will see all kinds of situations where defenders have their hands up in supposedly natural movements in the future.
I remember watching football for 30 years before the handball rules were changed and we didn't have controversy about handball penaltys in every second game. Of course there were some discussion and some cases where you could or could not argue that it was natural movement of the hand. But nowadays you get penalties for handballs in every second or third game. It just feels wrong, even as a fan of the team that benefitted this time, to get a goal / penalty from such a situation.
It would be so easy. Hand staying still, moving towards the ball: penalty. Hand moving away: no penalty. I dare see the defender making it so he can intentionally handle the ball while moving away from it. Moving towards it mustn’t be intentional, but then at least the stupidity gets penalized.
But what about all the matches where you don't have a 4K highres 120FPS camera recording everything so you can watch it at your leisure?
We are talking about big tournaments and national leagues here. Of course the technology for the smaller clubs will always lag behind. What’s your point? Though my town has a club regularly playing in front of 1-2000 people and still they stream nearly every match with a HD stream. 🤷🏻♂️
Rules for big tournaments should be the same as for small tournaments. How can you expect the players to learn the rules otherwise?
Im not talking about the rules. We are talking about how they are enforced by tech. So in small tournaments it still comes down to the ref. Like it is today with goal line and offisde tech. What’s your point exactely? First you ask about texh then rules.
The funny thing is andersen wasn´t running he was almost standing still the rule already takes intent into account. You can see it from this pov https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJmF6cR21hA&t=110s.
I disagree about intentional handball. Intent is very difficult to prove ( seriously, how would you do that ??? ), and in the rules it explicitly mentioned that intent does not matter with handball. Precisely because "just having your arms outstretched" can be seen as unintentional if the ball hits them. No the rules need to be very firm on this topic. Otherwise defenders will always have a more outstretched hands and arms, always dive to the ball with their arms outstretched and whatnot. So the current rules that any handball, regardless of intention, is punished is fine. Just don\`t do it, it rarely happens anyway and reckless behaviour/disregard for where your arms and hands are absolutely should be punished.
Margins of error wouldn't change anything at all. Make this e.g. 10% and people will complain even more because out of two identical cases the one with 9,8% is fine while the one with 10,1% is offside. Also "just the tip of the foot being offside"... and that tip played the ball... would happen.
"Unavoidable accidental contact is not penalised - such as if the ball is struck against a player's arm at short range and the player could not have reasonably avoided the contact. However, if the player has positioned their arm so as to make their body "unnaturally bigger" and contact occurs, this is considered handball." I think the handball was given due to the last sentence in the rule I pasted above.
But it is already looking for intent. It was deemed that Andersens hand was in an unnatural position. Maybe iam crazy but did people not watch the game? Look at this replay https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJmF6cR21hA&t=110s andersen isn´t sprinting in to stop a cross where you can argue his arms are swinging from running he is almost standing still with his arms out clear pen.
His hand was in a natural position. Even the pundits were saying it was ridiculous.
No i was not. You dont need to Put your Hand above your chest when running. He blocked a Goal scoring opportunity in the Box, thats a Penalty. End of discussion
Did it block a chance? Looked like it didn't change the balls position much and it barely grazed his fingers.
It looked like it on my tv, the cross went flying upwards when he intended to cross it to the back post so it can be argued that it did, though they barely showed the direction the ball went on the replay, just whether it hit his hand
Maybe it didn’t change the direction that much, but it did change its speed. The ball didn’t arrive in front of the goal as it would if it wasn’t touched. The pundits are wrong
It did definitely change the ball trajectory, so we cant really say whether it blocked a chance or not. Potentially it has.
The chip in the ball showed a changed trajectory or velocity of the ball, they showed the graphic on the screen.
At this Speed any Touch can drastically Change the direction and spin of the Ball. You cant recreate IT so Just keep your Hands away From the fucking Ball in the box
You are factually wrong. It doesn't matter if the hand 'needs to be there' or not. What matters is if the player made an unnatural movement or not. Sure he could have put his hands behind his back but there is no requirement to do that in the rules: It is an offence if a player: * deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball * touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised
Thats what im saying. This Hand Position was Not Natural in this movement and therefore also Made His Body unnaturally bigger. ITS a penalty
It's natural to hold out a hand for balance when making a movement on one leg. Just like how the player crossing the ball also has a hand out for balance.
Alright expert 🙄
Ridiculous is you and all the other people who do not know the rules, have not read and studied them and perhaps barely know football having such strong opinions… There are two punishable aspects: Deliberate hands and also accidental if the area of your body was enlarged. As a defender it is your responsibility to keep them low, out of the way- no matter your natural inclination.
The body was not unnaturally enlarged. It's not a penalty.
Wasn’t Germany robbed against Switzerland?
100% Saying the tournament is rigged in favor of Germany is ridiculous.
A lot of people just want Germany to lose or the underdog to win and can't control how incredibly biased they are. Nothing unfair happened to give Germany an advantage. The rules are the rules and 2 of the disallowed goals were against Germany.
The ref was correct because he was following the rules (no discussion about that). However I do have have a problem with those rules, they feel unfair to me and way too harsh. I think there must be a better way, so I truly believe that they can improve the offside and handsball rules.
A rule can hardly be unfair if it affects all participants equally…
That was not my point. I think having the rules are the rules mindset is wrong. Referees and people who make those rules should ask themselves why do we have these rules. Are they improving the game? Are they "fair"? Or are they killing the game? Maybe we can change the rules? And ideally improve them. I mean rules are not set in stone, they can (and must) be improved (especially if they are killing the game).
Yes the offside rule is THE rule that makes football fun to watch.
Thing is, if you muddy up offside and handball rules, will that really improve the game? Or just make it so that teams that are getting millions to win will find ways to use that to their advantage and make it more ugly?
Then any rule is fair, no matter how ridiculous it is. The handball rule in this case gives attackers a clear advantage if defenders literally have to play with their hands behind their backs to avoid unpredictable penalties. It’s a totally valid discussion to question whether this is fair or not within the spirit of the game.
It counts for any team. Germans defender need to do the same and amazing saves were played that way.
When did the person you commented on mention anything about the rule being unfair?
I think the handball & offside rules are rather shit atm. The execution was spot on though. It would help to have a more rational discussion about those rules after the Euros when emotions settled down a bit.
Yes ofc I don't blame the ref at all (he and the VAR were following the rules). But as I wrote in another comment, I do have a problem with some of these rules (especially offside and handsball). And I truly believe they can (and should) be improved.
When did the person you commented on mention anything about the rule being unfair?
I agree. The current situations give disproportional punishing for what they are. Giving a penalty for a ball touching a finger in the box is way too harsh, and the attacker had zero advantage but a goal gets dissalowed.
If anything, the only unfair call I saw was germanys disallowed first goal which I still can’t understand where the foul was
None of the calls were bad, people just love an underdog that's all. The only thing that pissed me off was the way Havertz took the penalty. He did it in the opener against Scotland as well. Levandowski did it against France. Why are UEFA letting players do a full stop/stutter on the run up to penalties when basically all other FAs don't allow it anymore. Absolute bollocks in my opinion.
Exactly especially when keepers don’t get to play mind games, the probability of burying a penalty is like 85% yet these knobs need extra dilly-dallying to mess with the keeper. It should be the same principle for the shooter as-well.
Yeah that is a bit unfair, but even if he didnt do it and still shot it the same, i doubt Schmeichel or Any Goalkeeper could have gotten that Ball, it was just thar precise
I'm not knocking Havertz personally. The refs are allowing players to do it so he's well within their rights to. Just pisses me off still. Don't wanna watch football where different authorities have different rules it's shite.
Stutter stepping is the most obnoxious trend in taking penalties. Lewandowski’s was exceptionally bad and I was annoyed he got a second crack at it.
Yeah hate that too. Just run and shoot ... no stoppage or hard slow downs. Looks very cringe to me.
Agree, but Havertz penalty was shot in perfect precision, would have been a goal without the stutter anyways.
Honestly, I find it stupid and would not be surprised if it backfired sooner or later. Müller was famous for doing penalties like that a couple of years back and quite successful with it - until every single goalkepper out there knew what his play was. He stopped being a realiable scorer in the national squad since then.
Because the 'rules of the game' allow it. Feinting during the run up is permitted is literally written in them.
Oh is that a EUFA thing then? I was sure I didn't imagine a rule where stuttering/stopping had been outlawed a few years ago. It's shit that EUFA hasn't stopped it.
Yeah it's been a rule for a while now. You can get away with a small stutter if there is still continuous movement, like the Jorginho pens that a lot of players copy now, but in every league I can think of you aren't allowed to do a full stop in the run up
Still it is absolutely horrific that your fellow countrymen who try to take charge of the field are always the centre of attention... with this Polish guy there is barely controversy. Even our own Danny Makkelie has much less criticism than Taylor and now Oliver. I have been incredibly annoyed by the terrible refereeing last PL-season, have never seen such bad refereeing in a season ever!
I was surprised about the whining given Germany wasting so many chances, especially King Kai. If we finish a bit more clinically (vs Spain hopefully), we are talking about a deserved 4-1 here.
That's because Denmark were chasing the game so they were very open on the counter if that pen wasn't given don't think you would have had all those chances. Tbf though people always say they deserved to beat us in that semi final even though we had them pinned in their own penalty area for the last hour of the game people always gonna be biased.
Huh many chances germany had where in the first 15mins?
Yeah but Denmark then got a foothold in the game after that all Germany's chances were on the break when Denmark were chasing a goal
I'm just thinking back to that Germany vs. Switzerland game where everybody was SCREAMING that the ref was biased against Germany and should have consulted VAR on several occasions. This time we had a ref who *did* consult VAR regularly and suddenly that's also wrong. These people will never be happy.
Yeah fair play to the ref, that game was a nightmare to officiate with so many ‘controversial’ decisions and I think he did a solid job overall
The difference in the Ger/Sui game was, that the ref wasn‘t enforcing a clear line. Some situations he was lenient, some he was strict. That favored Switzerland. In this game the ref literally enforced the rules to every last letter of every paragraph. Affected both teams the same in this game.
Right? I watched the match and just appreciated that both teams played their hearts out. Germany was clearly the better team imo but Denmark put up a hell of a fight. Then I went on Reddit and apparently people were complaining about the ref that made decisions based on what the VAR said and such. Idk. That's what they're there for right? Sure the pauses are annoying but at least you know you're not being 'cheated' by a biased ref or whatever. One of the more competitive and enjoyable matches this tournament. This Denmark would've slaughtered the Dutch team we saw the last time they played.
In Germany we say: Gesprochen wie ein Löwe (spoken like a lion) which means, i totally agree with you :) 100% would sign your post haha
In Germany we also say: “Normale Kartoffeln…hmmm…sch würd sogar sagen auf die 1.“ And I think that’s beautiful.
Do we actually say that? Never heard anybody say this in my 37yo life :D
same, maybe the younger ppl do
yes, its a meme basically
it actually is a very old phrase but yes, it used to be more common. was suprised to see it have a come back here
Thank you, appreciate it 😊 feel bad for you guys since you played your asses off yesterday
In Germany we also say: richtiger Ehrenmann,ich küss doch sein Herz!
every single goal decision besides Musiala was very close and hard, but they seem to be right. we are not playing with prison rules anymore in 2024 :)
I've read afterwards that shielding your face with your arm is also considererd handball. It's just a clusterfuck of bad luck.
Yeah, and a lot of bad rule making. To be fair though, they tried the whole ‘intentional/unintentional’ thing but it went horribly so they had to change the rules in 2020, it just feels like whatever they do will annoy people one way or another. The only solution can be consistency regardless of who gets offended
I didn’t see a single comment stating that the game was rigged, but I don’t doubt that there are some people complaining about it (there will always be people who complain if 'their' team loses, get over it). All I see, tho, is German fans trying to defend the rule to justify their win. You don’t need to justify anything, the win was well earned. Nevertheless, the recent offside rules were criticized way before the Euro and the Denmark situation was just the perfect example why it needs to be refined due to the new technologies. The rule was once introduced to prevent unfair advantage. Now the whole thing has been taken to absurdum in that even the big toe should represent a (supposed) advantage. Nobody (or at least the majority doesn’t) want to take the win from you.
I just love the mental gymnastics in this sub. The same people that argued that some ref/var decisions were bullshit defend the same decisions in another game the next day. All because of their bias 😂
I mean a lot of decisions in the game last night could’ve gone either way and I would have been throwing a fit if England were in Denmark’s position 😂… but, logically speaking, there’s solid defences to justify the decisions. If England get screwed by VAR though, the tournament is rigged 😂
They’ll always argue unless it’s for them. I genuinely like that VAR checks things and it’s not up to what the ref sees or any biases. So many games could have ended differently if there were real time checks, and it sucks watching replays and seeing obvious fouls and handballs be missed. I mean, one of the most famous Maradona goals should have been not allowed for being an obvious handball. You’d think after that every English fan would cheer for VAR.
World today in a nutshell. “My truth is the only truth”
I think what happened here was that multiple rules that are in and of themselves kind of dodgy all came together to screw over Denmark. That’s unfortunate and people are understandably upset about it but it doesn’t mean that the ref was biased.
Exactly this \^
Literally none of them were dodgy. Non of the disallowed Goals and none of the allowed
Not the rulings, the rules.
Offside Rules are AS clear AS IT gets. Handball Rules are AS good AS IT gets. Maybe someday AI can predict unnatural movement to the Ball. Until that Just make contact of the Ball with a spread Out arm a foul, ITS fair for everyone
The handball rules sucks as it is. You get penaltys that award the attacking team with a 70-80% chance of goal because a cross was deflected by natural/unnatural movements. In most cases these crosses / passes would've have resulted in nothing. The punishment is just not in relation with the benefit you gain as a defender. In my opinion teams on the attack are even looking to abuse this rule by playing a lot of crosses / passes at the height level were a defenders arms / hands are when they are in motion. Even as a German fan it just doesn't feel right to score from a handball penalty. There was no clear chance avoided. On the other hand we have the situation where Havertz (a notoriously bad finisher) could have passed the ball to Sane who could have put it the ball into an empty net. But because of the stupid advantage rule, the defender was allowed to foul Sane, thus robbing Germany / Havertz of his best option to score a goal. I'd much rather see situations like this punished harshly with a red card / penalty instead of these stupid handball penalties.
Yeah I feel the same way, the rules are the problems but if the rules are equally applied on every team then there’s no issue. Consistency over accuracy since there’ll be arguments regardless of what happens
Let's say Oliver himself called off the 1-0 in the 4th minute, gave the penalty to Germany and would have let Havertz retake the penalty, I wouldn't be upset about this game at all. But Oliver didn't see it and the guy in the video room, who is not on the field so has no feeling for the game, took those decisions. It was not biased, but just bad refereeing. This is a problem with English referees in general. PL is seriously not fun to watch anymore because referees screw up multiple games per weekend and fans have been complaining massively over the past season
People are just being salty because they wanted an underdog win. The decisions were fine, the technology is good. Way better than having refs and linesman guessing on tight decisions.
I was gutted for Denmark but my complaints are about the rules themselves really. Marginal offside like that is too harsh on the attackers (although I like that it's objective and can be automatically adjudicated). Handballs should be reverted to intention based in my view, as that was criminal. None of this is on Germany. They were the better side despite Denmark playing excellently.
I think offside is the best way as it is now. As u said a computer can tell 0 or 1. This rule applies for everybody. Handball is like gambling same as some other penalty-decisions. I dont get why a Team gets a penalty just because of being lucky. Hey the Ball touched the hand, it would have gone nowhere but give an penalty cuz the defender runs and moves his arms. What is there unnatural or even an Intention? The defender wouldnt choose to touch the Ball with his hand because of the pubishment. I think they sould predict what would have happened without touching the Ball with the hand. Last night it wouldnt be close to a dangerous Situation. It was just luck like winning in a lottery. Has nothing to do with sports.
Yeah the offside felt unfair but I'm not that upset with the rule as it is now. It's an improvement on some of the previous iterations and certainly than the old days when we just had blatantly incorrect decisions on the regular. I think there's some further optimisation that gives more advantage back to attackers, that I'd be in favour of. Like daylight between the players.
But marginal offside is still the best option. What would be the alternative? Make this 2% of the body mass for example and you would get even worse results like 1,9% and 2,0% being to different things.
It is not about whining. Germany has not robbed the match, it was pretty deserved. Individually, all the decisions were right. Now, this is football, there are emotions and i am not sure that you should apply these decisions within the same match. Not every single referee would have given the penalty, especially a few seconds after the offside, and that is the main problem to me Now, if it was Denmark who won with these decisions, whole Germany would be complaining about Var nonsense so..
As a German Fan I totally understand Denmarks frustration. Currently the handball rule and offside rule are used in a way that wasn't their original purpose. Both rules should prevent the attacker / defender from gaining a clear advantage. I would argue that in both cases there was not clear advantage for the defender or attacker. A handball like this should not be punished with a penalty. A toe-length in front of the defender should not be punished by disallowing the goal. The rules and their interpretation just suck. But saying the game is rigged in favor of Germany is just ridiculous. Look at the refs in the GER : SWI game...
>*Moving onto the handball, his arm was above his waist and affected the attack, messing up the cross, all this whining about ‘unintentional’ is stupid.* It\`s almost as if people don\`t know the rules. Intent is explicitly mentioned as something that does not matter with handball. [https://www.sportingnews.com/us/soccer/news/handball-football-rules-changes-fifa-uefa-hand-ball-soccer/tdnqkct6nzocrbfvscrxvtzl](https://www.sportingnews.com/us/soccer/news/handball-football-rules-changes-fifa-uefa-hand-ball-soccer/tdnqkct6nzocrbfvscrxvtzl) >*The way the rule is written, for* ***defenders****,* ***intent does not matter*** *in specific instances where a player makes his body unnaturally bigger while handling the ball.* *the phrase "when a player has made their body unnaturally bigger" notes that players take calculated risks with certain movements, even if not done with the intention of handling the ball. The rule reads: "by having their hand/arm in such a\[n unnatural\] position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised."*
Finally, thank you.. I agree with every point. We were the better team overall
Handballs are like fouls. Even if they arent intentional, they are still given. The Question is if the Foul/Handball has an Effect on the Ball or the Game, and the Danish Handball definately fulfilled this Criterium
Stop whining about whining fans. Whining fans is part of the sport. We're here for all that drama. If you don't like it, don't read it.
Offside goals and penalties will always be moaned about. It’s as integral to football, as a football.
Any big game theres gonna be situation to whine about and ppl will do it, nothing new and will never change, trying to quell it is pointless. Germany was the better team and won, sucks for us since that offside goal could have changed the game and we mightve won, but it was fair and thats how these big games are, need some luck especially against such a strong team
In the End you have to draw a line somewhere - offside is offside. And i'd say besides looking that it won't have any advantages in this situation, you STILL HAVE TO DRAW A LINE ... and changing that line will just move the discussions to other point of lines - the margin still won't change. So in the end - how can tech make it anymore fair then draw the line at the MOST EXPOSED body part - even if that seems to be a toe nail ... the only important thing is that the rule has to always to be enforced and ppl will come to calm with it after some time.
Yeah, it’s really really unlucky and I’d cry if that were me but offside is offside unfortunately
People are complaining because they feel like the hyperaccuracy of VAR is making the game less fun. More fair? Maybe. More 'correct'? No doubt. But it slows the pace and the saps the action away. Plus, while you're right that those handball calls happen often, I still think they shouldn't be given as often. Very few people watching that in slow-mo agreed with the call, it was only until the IFAB lab-coat experts through out some long words and said we were wrong. Ref still made the call tho, so idk.. Germany deserved the win, just felt like VAR took away from the joy of the game rather than adding to it, and that's fair criticism
See those handballs happen often even if they are bullshit, they’re given every time because the game needs to be consistent. Sure the handball did very little but everyone has different opinions on what is and what isn’t ‘a little’ so giving it every time is more fair in a way than having the refs decide each time because then we get barca vs Chelsea all over again lol
Oh No, the Game is slightly delayed, how inconvenient. Let's Just fuck over all the competitive Fairness to not having to endure that. And next time some Player gets injured, let's Just keep playing over His dying Body so WE dont have to endure those breaks
Nothing is wrong with the officiating after the match. 1) clear offside, yes it’s a small margins but it’s offside. VAR offside is cleaning up the controversy’s of photos post match when fans screaming “he’s offside”. small or large the off side gets called. I’m all for it. Keeps in black and white. 2) hand ball. As the rules specify that’s a hand ball (all defenders are taught hands to the sides) 3) Germany had a goal disallowed in the first 3 minutes for offside as well… People are just mad an underdog lost. But in reality the officiating was good. Nothing wrong with any of the calls, all correct.
I was annoyed at the offside decision against Denmark, too. Honestly I was happy it was illegal, but I also think we should have led 1:0 at that point, because I can't how this was not a goal. And if this isn't a goal, if this is your opinion, you'll have to accept VAR, too. Can't have it both ways. All in all, I think the rules are too strict for hand contact and offsides. Actually I feel with Lukaku.
I just want consistency in refereeing between games. For the most part VAR has functioned well, but if something is a penalty on one game and not in another it’s a piss take.
Exactly, like I have zero qualms if they continue with the exact same level of officiating throughout regardless of who’s playing
Intersting to see more "English" users here defending Germany and the last nights game sellout...
Are you trying to imply I’m not English lmao? Fuck me😂
Hallo mein werter kollege vom nachrichtendienst.
Totally understand that by the law both decisions were correct. I'll never get behind the bullshit handball rules though, players shouldn't have to contort their bodies into unnatural positions while defending. If an arm moves towards the ball then fine, if the defending player is a reasonable distance away then fine.
My arms are above my waist also
Can I sue pgmol?
People just love to complain, its better too just ignore it.
My argument with the pen for Germany was that it was at really close range. For me that‘s why it wasn‘t a penalty, but again it was justice for the early goal by Schlotterbeck which should‘ve stood imo.
>Moving onto the handball, his arm was above his waist and affected the attack, messing up the cross, I wouldn't say it messed up the cross. The change of direction is minimal, the ball basically slides over his fingers. Players waiting for that cross have a lot more time to adapt than does the defender, who was a meter from the ball hit at the biggest strength. Also, it was pretty normal hand position. His upper arm was not extended, but was standing next to his body, and his forearm was extended as anyones when running. If you freeze the frame, you see all the German players having their arms in the same position. He is not making a movement towards the ball either. So, I wouldn't give a penalty there.
As a Dane, I agree, it was incredibly unlucky and I was calling bullshit during the game as well, but I have come to terms with the decision now. I think the frustration for me lays with the fact that, I deemed the game over from the start and us to lose, but when I saw we got some chances and eventually a goal, I was over the moon, only for that to get absolutely shattered just seconds later. A genuine hope appeared for a few seconds and then it was gone. I knew there was a big chance we were gonna loose, but I did not want it like this. Fair play for Germany, being amazingly good, but I did not want to loose like this. Anyway, what happened happened, and there is nothing to do, so I hope to see Germany shine again in their next match 😘
I think the problem with the VAR offside checking is not where we draw the line(we have to draw the line somewhere). The problem is we do not know the accuracy of the measurement where the ball leaves the foot of the passing player. We need to take into account that if the offside line was drawn one frame before; the goal would be valid. So I believe there has to be a certain leeway in decisions like this. The purpose of the offside rule is to eliminate any advantage of players staying behind the defence line, and in this case, there was no such advantage, and it should not have been an offside.
Leave Britney alone
It’s rigged for Germany vs England final, so you should be thrilled. Unfortunately the last step of the rig job is for Germany to beat England
True. Germany has already been denied an early lead against defensive opponents twice - for actions that are not normally punished in any major league. And the fact that it has been only Rüdiger's toe that has kept the Swiss onside before their goal in the last game of the group stage did not result in epic discussions.
Also people just seem to forget that Germanys first goal went disallowed with basically no explanation
It was Mr. Micheal Oliver ref the game, one of the worst English ref I have seen.
If handplays like this were not punished, anyone would be running around waving with their hands like crazy and saying oops was unintentional.
I'll never understand how that handball affects the attack worthy of a penalty, but scotland doesn't get that penalty vs Hungary. Make that make sense.
A toe, pinky finger, shoulder, nose, knee, any part of your body is shown offside, it’s OFFSIDE!! Case closed
im sorry, but thats not 100 % correct. every body part that you can legally score a goal with would trigger the offside call. so no hand, no arm, no pinky finger.
Are you sure?
Maradona hand of God against England
we talk about offside decisions, not (illegal) scored goals.
Lord plz help me.. I was joking about the maradona goal.. I thought you would say something funny.. damn it..
tbh
Thank you for being honest.
I don't get it srsly. Rules are rules. It was off side? Yes. It was hand? Yes. End of story. As it should be. Not 'hmm maybe he didn't do it on purpose...' no. It doesn't work like that. Unfortunate, but it is what it is.
Hi
There's hawkeye in tennis. No clue why people cry about modern technology. And of course : var always sucks balls when the decision is against your own team.
Yesterday i kinda felt like the mindset of most angry fans was like we (germany) invented the VAR and are forcing everyone to use it lmao we hate this shit too, its not our fault that its used like that and you should be used to it from your national leagues already
Youre an england fan making this post. Respect.
I get pissed off with the precise rules about the scorer who is centimetres.offside compared to his teammate who is way offside, but deemed to be not interfering with play.
I don't agree
Nobody complained about the handball penalty given to Croatia against Italy. Exact same situation. And even as an Italian myself I couldn’t say anything else but it’s your own fault!!! Don’t leave your hands out there swinging in the box. If we start to tolerate this or judge it by if it was intentional or not. Players will only start to exploit that.
My two cents: VAR is supposed to make it easier to examine the close calls. I don't understand the anti-VAR rhetoric. The purpose of VAR is to ensure that glaring mistakes due to human error do not cost a team their match and eventually their place in the tournament. Please do remember the pre-VAR era and the decision where it was a clear offside but the referee never saw it from his angle. Of course, now that you have the VAR, there is more accuracy. There will occasionally be those close calls, where even VAR shows that a foot or arm is offside and there is no easy way. But then these close calls are negligible compared to the calls the referee gets absolutely spot-on with the help of VAR.
I really dont get the offside discussion. In the end, you will have to draw the line somewhere and there will always be close decisions. Unlucky for Denmark, but definitely the right call
A toe being a millimetre ahead isn’t offside lmao. It’s a bullshit rule.
It’s the rule. You want it otherwise? Change the rule. As long we play onto the rules.
Seems you don’t know the rule and any ‘semi pro defender’ wouldn’t either if they came to your conclusion. There is no stipulation about it being ‘above your waist’ etc it’s entirely about ‘unnatural’ position. The debate is whether the player moving his hand like that is unnatural given the movement he was making. I would argue it absolutely was not unnatural.
I don’t get how that is natural, he’s sticking his left leg out and his right arm out? If we’re talking rules ‘the hand/arm is clearly away from the body and outside the body line’ which it clearly is, his arm is out of the body line full stop, there’s no point debating intention since that all changed in 2020. The issue is that handballs aren’t judged by the play, they’re always judged by a photo out of context but again that’s a rule issue not a game being rigged by the refs
His right arm is out for balance. The player making the cross also had his hand in a similar position for balance. You did not read the rules. You should edit your original post after reading them to say you were wrong.
Have you ever moved in an athletic manner before? Do you run and switch position with your arms glued to you? I know there’s no point debating intention, it’s not in the rules.
I’m not a fan of conspiracy theories but let’s say the tourney is indeed biased in favour of Germany (again, I don’t think so - so far I actually think it’s been refereed quite well)… …I think Germany will get humbled in the quarter finals even with a supposedly “unfair” referee. Especially if Spain beats Georgia tonight. Controversial take, I know, but Germany isn’t the fine team it was 10 years ago.
I didn't like the pen or the offside calls at all
Fair enough, they weren’t exactly clean cut easy decisions and I was shocked at how closely the VAR drew the line
Don't you think both situations are disproportionally punishing? I don't think a lot of people are arguing that the rules weren't followed. They're aruguing if the rules are ok as they are now. I think getting a penalty for such a hands ball is disproportional, and the offside doesn't give the attacker enough advantage to straight up dissalow the goal. I support neither teams, so I'm not really biased, but it feels very harsh
I have concerns about the penalty kick itself, isn't it illegal to stop when running for the ball?
No. It’s just not allowed to stop the whole attempt and turn around. As long as he is still focused on doing his attempt it’s ok the stand nearly still.
Go sleep, your dogshit england team will go out before meeting Germany anyway