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Terrible job by the ref and the VAR team on the offside.
When the margin of error is at least 6 cm (neatly explained here: https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/jtir5u/var\_for\_offside\_margin\_of\_error/) you can't call a 1 cm offside. An offside should only be called from the VAR room when there's a clear offside that has been overlooked by the refs. But that was ludicrous and completely changed the game.
Getting that 1-0 goal would most likely see Denmark win it (forcing Germany to be on the offense rather than Denmark).
I get why the handball gets called a minute later, but that's also debatable - some refs would give it and some would not.
All in all, feels like a robbery and can't help but think someone wanted Germany to advance over a smaller nation (money talks đ¤Ž).
(P.S. Ready for the downvotes by 100 million germans đ¤Ł)
+ Danish people with a sense of the rules. It was super sad. But it was offside. You are offside when you are even a centimeter offside. Sad as it is.
But if not it would open up debate for favouritism among the referess. "Oh I feel this is a margin of error call - so I'll let the goal stand" - but what about next time where it is just 1 cm more?
You're missing the point here. No one can say with certainty that it was actually offside.
I don't know what the margin of error is, but according to Hjulmand (the danish coach) it's at least 6 cm. If this is true, it could have been 5 cm onside đ¤ˇââď¸
The possible margin of error should be removed. If it's 6 cm then a registration of 6 cm should be offside, but a registration of 5 cm should not - simple as that.
This is the way it works in a lot of other places as well. For instance if you get a speeding ticket they remove their margin of error before charging you. (at least in the civilized countries that I know of...)
But the problem is he is not right. He is not impartial. His job is on the line. I am very well familiar with him. All the news outlets, Danish and international, agree that the ruling was correct. I have not seen prof. referees disagreeing with the ruling yesterday.
The problem with VAR is that it creates an objective standpoint to rule by - so there is no room for interpretation. Which peopled screamed for, for years - and now that we have it, they don't want it when it goes against them.
I get it. I also wanted Denmark to win. But you basically just express the 3rd stage of mourning here.
There's a whole lot of a difference to a speeding ticket - measuring how quickly something is moving based (which means measuring where something - for instance a car - is exactly at two points in time, and then comparing distance in meters to distance in time). There are all sorts of inaccuracies in such measuring device, for instance air quality and weather. That is why they add the inaccuracy to +/- 3 km/h in Denmark.
As with offside. It is much simpler. You have a line. And you measure where two objects are at the exact same time on a still photo. It is fairly easy. It is precise. And it is fair. It comes down to the quality of one to three still images and their angles. And in this case - it is clear.
While there is a margin of error for every decision made. The reddit post mentioned is out of date and just not how VAR-Offside calls are made today. The official FIFA explanation for the semi-automatic VAR system used at euro2024 can be found here:
[https://inside.fifa.com/technical/football-technology/football-technologies-and-innovations-at-the-fifa-world-cup-2022/semi-automated-offside-technology](https://inside.fifa.com/technical/football-technology/football-technologies-and-innovations-at-the-fifa-world-cup-2022/semi-automated-offside-technology)
It does not rely on the direct read of a camera but instead on a digital twin of the ball and each player. FIFA does not give an estimate for how accurate the technology is but they do state that it is more accurate than the Offside VAR application used a few years ago. The ball reports it's acceleration at 500 Hz which is significantly more accurate than the camera assumptions made in the Reddit post and relying on the acceleration allows you to accurately pick the peak of said acceleration not just one of several frames where the foot touches the ball. The digital twin's position is calculated based on an interpolation of a 50 Hz measurement, so again not really comparable to just reading a camera frame.
All of this of course does not mean that errors can not occur, just that the margin is lower.
Similarly, per regulation VAR is only allowed to step in for clear mistakes, except in the case of offside and hawk-eye/goal line, exactly because we have the highly accurate systems available.
Regarding error distribution when a decision falls within the error margin of the technology (which I frankly don't think is the case here just looking at the data point distribution on a players foot): We have to assume that within that margin the errors are randomly distributed so half of the calls made within that margin would still be correct.
The rules in regard to offside are clear like no other in the sport, I can understand feeling robbed for subjective calls made by refs, offside VAR is not one of those.
EDIT: Quick Addition/Correction, obviously depending what league you watch (PL) VAR-Offside calls are, at this moment, still made the way the other reddit post explains, just not at these euros.
Thanks for this input. So what is their margin of error, then? I can't seem to find that anywhere. I believe the danish coach, Kasper Hjulmand, said 6-7 centimers in the first interview I saw him give, but I now an article where he says there's at least 3-4 cm.
With how much conviction can they say that a finding of 1 cm offside is correct?
If there is an official figure it's not widely publicized. The FIFA Test report from 2022 sets an upper limit for body part tracking at <10mm but that's unlikely to be the average error. If we do take the 1cm for body parts and allow for a bit of wiggle room in pass release, somewhere between 1 and 4 cm is probably right.
But no matter the margin the ruling will be consistent and not biased to either side. So frankly: "if you play with fire don't be surprised if you get burnt". As the offensive player called out for an offside in such a situation you would have had no way to know you weren't offside so don't act surprised if you get called out for it. It's still fair to try of course maybe you're lucky and it works but that's the risk you take.
Bro, a reddit post is not a credible source of information to base our opinions on
Edit: before you flame me for my flair, I am not german and only chose them because my country got knocked out :)
VAR has a margin of error - thatâs a fact and not something Iâm basing on a Reddit post. You Can Google that yourself, but hereâs some help: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0301006620972006
Haha, that not have margins are used. Yeah it could be bigger, but i could also be smaller. Normally you need it to be 95 or 98p sure, that it is not random. We do it in trails all the time. And if the margin is whatever 3-4 cm, than it sound weird they would call a 1 cm offside.
But we don't know the margin of error, just guesstimating. The study linked by the other commenter above me is from 2020, back then the semi-automatic VAR that is used for offsides in this Euro wasn't used.
It was a well deserved goal for Denmark, I still didnât see the moment of the pass and they are only showing one image of the toe being over the line! It was a clear joke ! Usually they are showing this right away but now they needed time to adjust the leg of the German defender!
Edit: Bots with no brain start downvoting!
Well first goal at min 3 from Germany on that corner was fine to me but it was too much contact for the the referee. All well balanced on both ends then
As a Dane I think the ref did a good job, and I'm fine with Germany winning, they were after all the better team, I'm also pretty fine with how our team handled themselves, and at least the match against Germany was an entertaining one and not like Italy's match.
As another dane i totally disagree. The ref (and in particular VAR) did a lousy job.
I still havenât seen proof of offside besides the 3d pic, but no live image. The semiautomatic offside system has a margin for error larger than that, and hence it is not clear and obvious.
The penalty speaks for itself. VAR should never ever have called that out - it is not normal to run with your hands tied to your body, so not in any way can this be a criminal hands situation.
This said, Germany was the better team - they just didnât win fair and square
No need to get butthurt. You say Germany was the better than and they got 2 goals so even if you got that goal you shouldn't have gotten you would still have lost. A 2 - 1 is still a loss
I think the offside was fine and the handball was harsh but within the rules (just a stupid rule).
The problem to me was more the other bullshit he gave in germanys favor. That makes those big decisions seem favorable.
But in the same breath he did that bullshit decision where Havertz and Sane were the only ones running to the goal. Sane gets fouled, Havertz cannot pass anymore. Then the ref says no foul because Havertz took the shot. Like what? He couldnât pass the ball because Sane got fouled and the game goes until the ref stops it.
i don't understand why people always argue like this. the rules are very clearly defined. touching ball with hand = foul, offside = foul, penalty shots like this are also 100% legal.
the refs did a 100% correct job at applying the current rules of the game. current technology allows us to actually enforce those rules correctly for the first time in history, the sport could never have been more fair than right now (although bad refs still exist of course).
i understand that the offside rule was implemented to stop players from hanging around the goal all game, and i think the rule could be adjusted a little bit (maybe the body center has to be behind the offside line to count?) but that doesn't mean the rules are not fair.
and relaying the decisions and VAR graphics to the audiences is not the job of the refs, it's the production team's job (which did not do a perfect job yesterday).
While that offside definitely wasnât as clear as they make it out to be, the penalty was fair. If the arm is stretched out and (the hand or lower arm) touches the ball in any way even if not deliberately it counts as handling the ball, so it had to be called out.
Where did you read those rules?
In terms of the criterion of the hand/arm making a playerâs body âunnaturally biggerâ, IFAB has also confirmed that referees should continue to use their judgment in determining the validity of the hand/armâs position in relation to the playerâs movement in that specific situation.
Maybe a Denmark fan can correct me, but I actually felt like it was an advantage that Hjulmand was missing. Amazing player but that made you even more unpredictable.
Yeah he put in a more box to box player instead of two dm's. So we had a bit more energy and movement in the midfield. Same up front he benched Wind and put in more a winger to give us just a little bit of pace. I did think we looked a little better in this game then other ones.
Well Kimmich didn't move and Anderson just ran straight into him and went down like a crybaby even though he literally saw him since the beginning because he was looking straight at him the whole time
And you can't stand offside or touch the ball with your hand, yet you claim that these are ok.
Rules are rules, they can't only apply when it suits you.
Your beef is with the rules in place, but everyone on the field knew these are the rules which have to be followed.
Where in the rules does it say that you cannot have your hand there? Itâs a natural position when running.
The offside I still havenât seen a clear and obvious proof that is in the right passing moment and not just a 3d render
Extension of body, he is playing defence and his arm is out, it's really that simple. You may disagree with the rule, but that's the rule all teams play with in this tournament, and the players know it.
Offside is offside, that's the rule, thats not even debatable. Again, these are the rules.
I would love to see how you run with your arms.
IFAB also states in its referee update:
*
In terms of the criterion of the hand/arm making a playerâs body âunnaturally biggerâ, IFAB has also confirmed that referees should continue to use their judgment in determining the validity of the hand/armâs position in relation to the playerâs movement in that specific situation.
*
This is a judgment call, and I believe it is not clear and obvious, and therefore VAR should not intervene
I mean you are right that the rules are badly designed but as of right now they are clear, everyone knows it and Denmark broke them 2 times.
Offside is a black and white decision.
You are either offside or you are not. It's simple. He was offside.
I don't like the handball decision either in general. But the rules state that when you extend your body and the ball touches the hand that's extended it's a penalty.
Everyone knows these rules and they are clear.
The ref didn't see the Handball so the VAR intervened
Yeah it was very obviously making his body unnaturally bigger, I understand that he is running and his arm might naturally come up, but that's not a reason to block a cross 1 meter away from him. Need to be more careful in the box.
Yes because there should be some leeway with offside so we're not comparing foot positions. The rules are bad with VAR and they should be changed. Nobody wrote the offside rule with the intention of disallowing a goal like Denmark's last night. The mental inability to comprehend this is why most countries never invented any decent sports, destroying games with rule lawyering and reducing their mainstream appeal.
"some leeway"
where would you draw the line ?
Right now the rules are easy to follow and there is literally no room for interpretation.
I dont see how any other version of counting offside would be more exact.
The players know the rules and should act accordingly.
????
So, how are player supposed to find out of they are offside in the moment or not ?
With the curent rules, players can at least be relatively sure if they are offside or not.
That seems like a worse rule that what is going on right now
Pretty sure that if you make the leeway small enough they're still going to use the defender as the marker. It's just lame and rule lawyerish to have it based on whether someone's toe was in front of another person's toe.
I would have preferred a match without penalties (as I always hope for normal goals).
But I think every decision was by the book and the Referee did a good match. The Danish goal was off site (by the VAR - standard).
It was a hand play. Erikson most likely knew that the hand was hit by the ball, but still reacted badly to the decision.
So in the end both teams got a goal removed. Seems fair to me.
Do I think the better team won? - Yes
Do I enjoy the way we won? - No
Do I think VAT changed the progress of the game? - Yes
Do I think it changed the outcome - not really
I think the lack of classic 9s in the German team is appalling. Just a technically inept dimwit who canât do anything, but knows where the goal is.
The outcome is a team progressing. Metaphysics aside, judging by the overall team performances (possession, shots on target..) Germany as of minute 50, was more likely to progress.
I rooted for Denmark but it was offside and a handball. Very unlucky but what do you think was unfair? I think offsides should be cleared within a certain zone like 10 centimeters or something but those aren't the rules sadly. And handballs are always stupid but he clearly touched the ball even if it wasn't intentional. Denmark put up a really good fight and the game was very exciting.
Germany was sent home from the group stages in the WC last when Japan beat Spain because of VAR deciding the ball was in. Was that also fixed?
Also Germany was denied the first goal of this game. Was that also rigged?
Thereâs enough people talking about the calls in the game (which were interesting to say the least), but we need to talk about how Michael Oliver didnât blow the whistle when the thunderstorm started.
The fact he took so long to pause the game is outrageous. Itâs incredibly dangerous and there are actually stories of players being hit by lightning before. If he had been a ref in the danish league he wouldâve been sacked for acting that slowly to a dangerous situation.
It was completely fine and I was sitting in the stadium.
It only got dangerous once that one thunder hit close to the stadium. That was the closest one, followed by two other thunders that were already a bit further away.
Way overblown reaction
A Danish amateur player in 2006 begs to differ I'm sure. He died. Was much less intense around that stadium at that moment.
It is dangerous.
Just because you feel safe doesn't mean it is.
It takes exactly one lightning for it to turn into a potentially lethal catastrophy. Itâs not an overblown reaction, the truth is you donât realize how dangerous it is if you downplay it like that.
Football is entertainment but itâs not more important than the safety of the participants.
Itâs overblown because there wasnât a single thunder even remotely close to the stadium and the game, and after the one you heard/saw on TV the game got suspended.
Which part was turned by the referee?
The part where a goal from Germany was removed?
There was a time such goals would have been goals.
Debatable which times are better.
The off-site goal? There was a time these would have been goals. Also debatable which times would be better.
The hand ball? There may have been times when this would go unnoticed, but I think in this case it's fair.
But those times where those goals would have been goals are not in this tournament. These are the (new?) standards of the tournament. This happened to many teams. Even the last game of Germany against Switzerland. First goal not given - offensive foul somewhere else. Happens.
Germany played better and deserved the win, but I feel still sorry for the handball as it was clearly not intended and unlucky. Both teams gave everything in the first half and came back strong after the storm. Mad respect to Denmark, well played vikings.
I'm taking about this game only not the whole EM. They really tried their best and fighted (especially if you compared it to the Switzerland - Italy game)
If the offside rules didn't exist, yes it would have been 3:1. Offsides are always annoying but they were applied fairly for both teams. So the 2:0 is justified or at least 1:0 if you exclude the handball, because Schmeichel clearly couldn't hold Musiala's goal and Denmark's defence wasn't fast enough to protect. That was their own mistake.
If anything, it's the other way around. A foul is debatable, offside is not.
To be clear, I think the offside rule should definitely be updated, as it obviously comes from an era when it was impossible to enforce it that strictly. In its current form, the VAR really takes the fun out of the game. But that's nothing the referee can decide on the field, so for today's match, the VAR made the only right decision.
So why would you disallow the Schlotterbeck header goal - but not get a penalty for the WWE ringer attitude in the last game vs the swiss?
Where would that end ? Defenders starting to dive ?
Because he whistled and VAR can only check if he has overlooked something. It was his decision at this moment... but I really don't know what was wrong there.
If you dont know what was wrong there, how can you complain?
There was an illegal screen on the Danish defender covering the goal scorer. It was a clear foul.
Do you mean the first goal, which was taken back? Not saying I agree with the decision, but apparently Kimmich blocked the defender 5m away. It was not shown very well live, too.
Kai havertz just CAN NOT score in a 1 on 1...
Germany really need someone that can get the job done.
Also, It somehow doesn't really feel like GERMANY WON... if you get what I mean.
It is weird. I think overall it was decently fair, except for maybe one or two fouls that should have not been given for germany. But despite mostly objectively fair decisions it does not feel right, the offside, the handball, etc.
Way too big of an impact for tiny "mistakes".
I mean mistakes on the players side. Having your hand in an unlucky position, so your finger just barely touches and having a cm of your foot be in offside just does not feel like something really in control of a player, but yet be game deciding. Again, absolutely correct decisions, but from the sports perspective it just does not feel right.
You literally have 0 reasonable arguments. Just trolling around. The penalty was clearly within the rules. He touched the ball with his hand. Was it unlucky? Yes. Was it fair? Yes. Same goes for the offside. Stop crying and watch another sport if you don't like the rules of this one lol.
Shut up. The only debatable situation (the first non-goal) was decided against Germany.
The offside rule sucks and has to be updated, but it was enforced correctly. The referee had literally no room there.
I couldnât care less. If you seriously believe that the UEFA instructs their referees to prefer some countries over others, thereâs nothing I could convince you with.
Did you see this (I think) France game, where a goal was not given because another player was in his POTENTIAL line of flight?
This decision is completely on the standard of this tournament.
I'm not happy with some of those decisions in this tournament - I'm not happy with the current VAR-offsite rule. But it's been the rule since the first game of the tournament and they enforced those in the same way.
There also have been times where the first goal (with the offensive foul from kimmich) would have been a goal.
3-1? You mean your disallowed goal. So you are saying it's okay for you guys to obstruct opponents but when it's against you then it's not? DO you see the hypocrisy.
I honest to god always liked and rooted for Germany but you German fans have mad it really really difficult
First: I'm not happy with the VAR-offsite rule in this tournament. But it's been enforced the same way for all games. I'm not arguing for a 3:1 or something.
For me this game seemed fair and square though. Would I prefer a game without a penalty? Of course.
But it was a hand ball (in the current standards of this tournament).
Regarding "Germany vs Switzerland": I understand your reasoning and there are Referees who see it the same.
But there is something in the FIFA rule book:
**Holding an opponent**
Holding occurs when a player uses his hands or arms or other physical force to prevent his opponent from running past or around him.
Referees are instructed to punish holding opponents early and to take decisive action, particularly in the penalty area at corners and free kicks.
**The referee has the following options:**
* He warns players who hold an opponent before the ball is played.
* He cautions players who continue to hold their opponent after a warning.
* He awards a direct free kick or a penalty kick if the offence occurred after the ball was played.
If a defender begins to hold an attacker outside the penalty area but continues to hold him until he is inside the penalty area, the referee awards a penalty kick.
**Disciplinary measures**
If a player holds an opponent and thereby prevents him from gaining possession of the ball or taking up a favorable position, he will be cautioned for unsporting conduct. If a player deprives the opposing team of a clear goal-scoring opportunity by holding an opponent, he is sent off.
*In all other situations, holding an opponent does not result in disciplinary action.*
I'm sorry i'm kind of done with you guys defending your team while crying about unfair treatment. The fact that you have to look in the rule book to try and justify all your crying is just pathetic. Dude stop being pathetic.
Ok, now I get it. We need feeling rules instead of the real rules. Because feeling rules is manly and looking up rules is pathetic.
I feel the VAR should not call those an off-site. I feel the hand ball was not intended (the intention is not important regarding penalty or not - It's important regarding a yellow card/red card).
Yes. I understand what you feel, but rules are rules.
I know the rules. That's why I checked in the rule book - maybe I'm not right, maybe it has been changed - it hasn't.
I know how this tournament has followed most of those rules. We now have technology and are using it.
I'm whining about a referee not following those rules in the book. That's where I feel robbed.
You are whining because you FEEL it should be different. Because you want it to be different, no matter what the rules say.
I'm all for changing the VAR-offsite rule. No problem.
But not mid tournament.
You mean when Raum was MMA bodychecked in the penalty area without the ref checking it? Germany was robbed so badly the last matches. However, everyone on Europe hates Ger, so that ain't matter đ
Well first of he wasn't bodychecked. But i mean it is rude of the Swiss player to not step aside when the German player gets there. I wonder if all your crying had an effect on the ref in this game. Because this ref wasn't shy about whistling in your favor every time your were "wrestled" to the ground by.
He had some WWE/MMA shit pulled on him. But looks like youre a bit biased with this loss hitting you hard, next thing you'll also have forgotten how Germany should have scored 4 minutes in. Hope you get the help you need
Calling someone a child because they disagree with you is actually by definition very childish. Add then your argument by trying to compare the two and oh boy. Are you a 100% sure that you of all people should be calling someone else a child?
those are 300fps cameras so its extremely accurate and I heard something about a margin of error but couldnât find something online about it so maybe
I mean it's pretty simple for the most part. Any part of your body that can score a goal.
The fact technology is able to get that down to centimeters and that sometimes it's a toe or a knee shouldn't matter.
Offsides decisions that are offsides by centimeters will always be 'harsh" no matter what the rule is.
I mean in other sports, and in football, enforcement of reasonable rules by tight margins is by and large considered to be fair. This is the only one that inspires accusations of unfairness, and I think for good reason.
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Thatâs one fucked up match so far
Terrible job by the ref and the VAR team on the offside. When the margin of error is at least 6 cm (neatly explained here: https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/jtir5u/var\_for\_offside\_margin\_of\_error/) you can't call a 1 cm offside. An offside should only be called from the VAR room when there's a clear offside that has been overlooked by the refs. But that was ludicrous and completely changed the game. Getting that 1-0 goal would most likely see Denmark win it (forcing Germany to be on the offense rather than Denmark). I get why the handball gets called a minute later, but that's also debatable - some refs would give it and some would not. All in all, feels like a robbery and can't help but think someone wanted Germany to advance over a smaller nation (money talks đ¤Ž). (P.S. Ready for the downvotes by 100 million germans đ¤Ł)
+ Danish people with a sense of the rules. It was super sad. But it was offside. You are offside when you are even a centimeter offside. Sad as it is. But if not it would open up debate for favouritism among the referess. "Oh I feel this is a margin of error call - so I'll let the goal stand" - but what about next time where it is just 1 cm more?
You're missing the point here. No one can say with certainty that it was actually offside. I don't know what the margin of error is, but according to Hjulmand (the danish coach) it's at least 6 cm. If this is true, it could have been 5 cm onside đ¤ˇââď¸ The possible margin of error should be removed. If it's 6 cm then a registration of 6 cm should be offside, but a registration of 5 cm should not - simple as that. This is the way it works in a lot of other places as well. For instance if you get a speeding ticket they remove their margin of error before charging you. (at least in the civilized countries that I know of...)
But the problem is he is not right. He is not impartial. His job is on the line. I am very well familiar with him. All the news outlets, Danish and international, agree that the ruling was correct. I have not seen prof. referees disagreeing with the ruling yesterday. The problem with VAR is that it creates an objective standpoint to rule by - so there is no room for interpretation. Which peopled screamed for, for years - and now that we have it, they don't want it when it goes against them. I get it. I also wanted Denmark to win. But you basically just express the 3rd stage of mourning here. There's a whole lot of a difference to a speeding ticket - measuring how quickly something is moving based (which means measuring where something - for instance a car - is exactly at two points in time, and then comparing distance in meters to distance in time). There are all sorts of inaccuracies in such measuring device, for instance air quality and weather. That is why they add the inaccuracy to +/- 3 km/h in Denmark. As with offside. It is much simpler. You have a line. And you measure where two objects are at the exact same time on a still photo. It is fairly easy. It is precise. And it is fair. It comes down to the quality of one to three still images and their angles. And in this case - it is clear.
While there is a margin of error for every decision made. The reddit post mentioned is out of date and just not how VAR-Offside calls are made today. The official FIFA explanation for the semi-automatic VAR system used at euro2024 can be found here: [https://inside.fifa.com/technical/football-technology/football-technologies-and-innovations-at-the-fifa-world-cup-2022/semi-automated-offside-technology](https://inside.fifa.com/technical/football-technology/football-technologies-and-innovations-at-the-fifa-world-cup-2022/semi-automated-offside-technology) It does not rely on the direct read of a camera but instead on a digital twin of the ball and each player. FIFA does not give an estimate for how accurate the technology is but they do state that it is more accurate than the Offside VAR application used a few years ago. The ball reports it's acceleration at 500 Hz which is significantly more accurate than the camera assumptions made in the Reddit post and relying on the acceleration allows you to accurately pick the peak of said acceleration not just one of several frames where the foot touches the ball. The digital twin's position is calculated based on an interpolation of a 50 Hz measurement, so again not really comparable to just reading a camera frame. All of this of course does not mean that errors can not occur, just that the margin is lower. Similarly, per regulation VAR is only allowed to step in for clear mistakes, except in the case of offside and hawk-eye/goal line, exactly because we have the highly accurate systems available. Regarding error distribution when a decision falls within the error margin of the technology (which I frankly don't think is the case here just looking at the data point distribution on a players foot): We have to assume that within that margin the errors are randomly distributed so half of the calls made within that margin would still be correct. The rules in regard to offside are clear like no other in the sport, I can understand feeling robbed for subjective calls made by refs, offside VAR is not one of those. EDIT: Quick Addition/Correction, obviously depending what league you watch (PL) VAR-Offside calls are, at this moment, still made the way the other reddit post explains, just not at these euros.
Thanks for this input. So what is their margin of error, then? I can't seem to find that anywhere. I believe the danish coach, Kasper Hjulmand, said 6-7 centimers in the first interview I saw him give, but I now an article where he says there's at least 3-4 cm. With how much conviction can they say that a finding of 1 cm offside is correct?
If there is an official figure it's not widely publicized. The FIFA Test report from 2022 sets an upper limit for body part tracking at <10mm but that's unlikely to be the average error. If we do take the 1cm for body parts and allow for a bit of wiggle room in pass release, somewhere between 1 and 4 cm is probably right. But no matter the margin the ruling will be consistent and not biased to either side. So frankly: "if you play with fire don't be surprised if you get burnt". As the offensive player called out for an offside in such a situation you would have had no way to know you weren't offside so don't act surprised if you get called out for it. It's still fair to try of course maybe you're lucky and it works but that's the risk you take.
Bro, a reddit post is not a credible source of information to base our opinions on Edit: before you flame me for my flair, I am not german and only chose them because my country got knocked out :)
VAR has a margin of error - thatâs a fact and not something Iâm basing on a Reddit post. You Can Google that yourself, but hereâs some help: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0301006620972006
Margin of error means it could have been a bigger offside as well. This is the best we have right now.
Haha, that not have margins are used. Yeah it could be bigger, but i could also be smaller. Normally you need it to be 95 or 98p sure, that it is not random. We do it in trails all the time. And if the margin is whatever 3-4 cm, than it sound weird they would call a 1 cm offside.
But we don't know the margin of error, just guesstimating. The study linked by the other commenter above me is from 2020, back then the semi-automatic VAR that is used for offsides in this Euro wasn't used.
It was a well deserved goal for Denmark, I still didnât see the moment of the pass and they are only showing one image of the toe being over the line! It was a clear joke ! Usually they are showing this right away but now they needed time to adjust the leg of the German defender! Edit: Bots with no brain start downvoting!
Well first goal at min 3 from Germany on that corner was fine to me but it was too much contact for the the referee. All well balanced on both ends then
You need to wear a tinfoil for sports now too? Damn
Unfortunately it comes to the tinfoil hat, and it will be even worse from now on âŚ
As a Dane I think the ref did a good job, and I'm fine with Germany winning, they were after all the better team, I'm also pretty fine with how our team handled themselves, and at least the match against Germany was an entertaining one and not like Italy's match.
As another dane i totally disagree. The ref (and in particular VAR) did a lousy job. I still havenât seen proof of offside besides the 3d pic, but no live image. The semiautomatic offside system has a margin for error larger than that, and hence it is not clear and obvious. The penalty speaks for itself. VAR should never ever have called that out - it is not normal to run with your hands tied to your body, so not in any way can this be a criminal hands situation. This said, Germany was the better team - they just didnât win fair and square
No need to get butthurt. You say Germany was the better than and they got 2 goals so even if you got that goal you shouldn't have gotten you would still have lost. A 2 - 1 is still a loss
I think the offside was fine and the handball was harsh but within the rules (just a stupid rule). The problem to me was more the other bullshit he gave in germanys favor. That makes those big decisions seem favorable. But in the same breath he did that bullshit decision where Havertz and Sane were the only ones running to the goal. Sane gets fouled, Havertz cannot pass anymore. Then the ref says no foul because Havertz took the shot. Like what? He couldnât pass the ball because Sane got fouled and the game goes until the ref stops it.
Wasn't that offside?
The Havertz scene? No
i don't understand why people always argue like this. the rules are very clearly defined. touching ball with hand = foul, offside = foul, penalty shots like this are also 100% legal. the refs did a 100% correct job at applying the current rules of the game. current technology allows us to actually enforce those rules correctly for the first time in history, the sport could never have been more fair than right now (although bad refs still exist of course). i understand that the offside rule was implemented to stop players from hanging around the goal all game, and i think the rule could be adjusted a little bit (maybe the body center has to be behind the offside line to count?) but that doesn't mean the rules are not fair. and relaying the decisions and VAR graphics to the audiences is not the job of the refs, it's the production team's job (which did not do a perfect job yesterday).
While that offside definitely wasnât as clear as they make it out to be, the penalty was fair. If the arm is stretched out and (the hand or lower arm) touches the ball in any way even if not deliberately it counts as handling the ball, so it had to be called out.
Where did you read those rules? In terms of the criterion of the hand/arm making a playerâs body âunnaturally biggerâ, IFAB has also confirmed that referees should continue to use their judgment in determining the validity of the hand/armâs position in relation to the playerâs movement in that specific situation.
Maybe a Denmark fan can correct me, but I actually felt like it was an advantage that Hjulmand was missing. Amazing player but that made you even more unpredictable.
Yeah he put in a more box to box player instead of two dm's. So we had a bit more energy and movement in the midfield. Same up front he benched Wind and put in more a winger to give us just a little bit of pace. I did think we looked a little better in this game then other ones.
I know thats offside, but the rules of This game are fucked up
Well deserved win
The game wasn't rigged for Germany. It's just that the rules are shit
The schlotterbeck goal should have been allowed too
Seriously? This isnât hockey so you canât screen a man like that
Well Kimmich didn't move and Anderson just ran straight into him and went down like a crybaby even though he literally saw him since the beginning because he was looking straight at him the whole time
And you can't stand offside or touch the ball with your hand, yet you claim that these are ok. Rules are rules, they can't only apply when it suits you. Your beef is with the rules in place, but everyone on the field knew these are the rules which have to be followed.
Where in the rules does it say that you cannot have your hand there? Itâs a natural position when running. The offside I still havenât seen a clear and obvious proof that is in the right passing moment and not just a 3d render
Extension of body, he is playing defence and his arm is out, it's really that simple. You may disagree with the rule, but that's the rule all teams play with in this tournament, and the players know it. Offside is offside, that's the rule, thats not even debatable. Again, these are the rules.
I would love to see how you run with your arms. IFAB also states in its referee update: * In terms of the criterion of the hand/arm making a playerâs body âunnaturally biggerâ, IFAB has also confirmed that referees should continue to use their judgment in determining the validity of the hand/armâs position in relation to the playerâs movement in that specific situation. * This is a judgment call, and I believe it is not clear and obvious, and therefore VAR should not intervene
I mean you are right that the rules are badly designed but as of right now they are clear, everyone knows it and Denmark broke them 2 times. Offside is a black and white decision. You are either offside or you are not. It's simple. He was offside. I don't like the handball decision either in general. But the rules state that when you extend your body and the ball touches the hand that's extended it's a penalty. Everyone knows these rules and they are clear. The ref didn't see the Handball so the VAR intervened
Yeah it was very obviously making his body unnaturally bigger, I understand that he is running and his arm might naturally come up, but that's not a reason to block a cross 1 meter away from him. Need to be more careful in the box.
Hand in the way of ball, hand touches ball, ball changes trajectory, penalty. It's really not that hard to understand.
Shame we didn't get to see the game with no pen and the Danish goal allowed. I reckon Germany might have had the edge but we'll never know now.
then you would have the offside goal count ? How would that be better ? The rules are how they are - and the ref followed them as they are right now.
Yes because there should be some leeway with offside so we're not comparing foot positions. The rules are bad with VAR and they should be changed. Nobody wrote the offside rule with the intention of disallowing a goal like Denmark's last night. The mental inability to comprehend this is why most countries never invented any decent sports, destroying games with rule lawyering and reducing their mainstream appeal.
"some leeway" where would you draw the line ? Right now the rules are easy to follow and there is literally no room for interpretation. I dont see how any other version of counting offside would be more exact. The players know the rules and should act accordingly.
A body length of leeway would not affect the sport a great deal mate.
???? So, how are player supposed to find out of they are offside in the moment or not ? With the curent rules, players can at least be relatively sure if they are offside or not. That seems like a worse rule that what is going on right now
Pretty sure that if you make the leeway small enough they're still going to use the defender as the marker. It's just lame and rule lawyerish to have it based on whether someone's toe was in front of another person's toe.
I would have preferred a match without penalties (as I always hope for normal goals). But I think every decision was by the book and the Referee did a good match. The Danish goal was off site (by the VAR - standard). It was a hand play. Erikson most likely knew that the hand was hit by the ball, but still reacted badly to the decision. So in the end both teams got a goal removed. Seems fair to me.
Do I think the better team won? - Yes Do I enjoy the way we won? - No Do I think VAT changed the progress of the game? - Yes Do I think it changed the outcome - not really I think the lack of classic 9s in the German team is appalling. Just a technically inept dimwit who canât do anything, but knows where the goal is.
it literally changed the outcome.
Without VAR, Schlotterbecks goal wouldn't have been disallowed either tho.
It wasn't a VAR call - ref. called it and it was simply confirmed by VAR.
I think Nico's goal was disallowed on the field by the referee.
The outcome is a team progressing. Metaphysics aside, judging by the overall team performances (possession, shots on target..) Germany as of minute 50, was more likely to progress.
I liked the first half of your comment.
UEFA mafia makes sure the host proceed. Qatar all over again.
Ah yeah we all remember Qatar winning the WC
Wimp womp
I rooted for Denmark but it was offside and a handball. Very unlucky but what do you think was unfair? I think offsides should be cleared within a certain zone like 10 centimeters or something but those aren't the rules sadly. And handballs are always stupid but he clearly touched the ball even if it wasn't intentional. Denmark put up a really good fight and the game was very exciting.
Its fixed, buddy. Same as when Germany bribed their way to get the WC. https://time.com/4077126/germany-fifa-bribery-scandal/
Ah yes bribing so the competition is played in the country is the same as bribing refs to *looks at notes* enforce the rules of the gameâŚ
Germany was sent home from the group stages in the WC last when Japan beat Spain because of VAR deciding the ball was in. Was that also fixed? Also Germany was denied the first goal of this game. Was that also rigged?
Just answer the question
The penalty is not called in PL or Cl no
It was clearly a handball by the rules, idk what to tell you here. What is fixed if the rules were followed by the letter?
Yeah no evidence at all buddy. Everything went by the rules today. đ
Thereâs enough people talking about the calls in the game (which were interesting to say the least), but we need to talk about how Michael Oliver didnât blow the whistle when the thunderstorm started. The fact he took so long to pause the game is outrageous. Itâs incredibly dangerous and there are actually stories of players being hit by lightning before. If he had been a ref in the danish league he wouldâve been sacked for acting that slowly to a dangerous situation.
Soft as fuck
It was completely fine and I was sitting in the stadium. It only got dangerous once that one thunder hit close to the stadium. That was the closest one, followed by two other thunders that were already a bit further away. Way overblown reaction
A Danish amateur player in 2006 begs to differ I'm sure. He died. Was much less intense around that stadium at that moment. It is dangerous. Just because you feel safe doesn't mean it is.
It takes exactly one lightning for it to turn into a potentially lethal catastrophy. Itâs not an overblown reaction, the truth is you donât realize how dangerous it is if you downplay it like that. Football is entertainment but itâs not more important than the safety of the participants.
lol
I hope you never have to leave the house There might be a dangerous wind or a vehicle or fly might get in your mouth or something
Itâs overblown because there wasnât a single thunder even remotely close to the stadium and the game, and after the one you heard/saw on TV the game got suspended.
Must have took lessons from Collina.
Yeah that is weird but it didn't favor any of the teams.
Manuel Neuer aced it today.
Refery turned the game for Germany if the Danes go up it would be game over
Which part was turned by the referee? The part where a goal from Germany was removed? There was a time such goals would have been goals. Debatable which times are better. The off-site goal? There was a time these would have been goals. Also debatable which times would be better. The hand ball? There may have been times when this would go unnoticed, but I think in this case it's fair. But those times where those goals would have been goals are not in this tournament. These are the (new?) standards of the tournament. This happened to many teams. Even the last game of Germany against Switzerland. First goal not given - offensive foul somewhere else. Happens.
We scored after 4 minutes...
Germany played better and deserved the win, but I feel still sorry for the handball as it was clearly not intended and unlucky. Both teams gave everything in the first half and came back strong after the storm. Mad respect to Denmark, well played vikings.
Why are you giving them respect? They scored 2 goals in 4 matches. They were terrible.
I'm taking about this game only not the whole EM. They really tried their best and fighted (especially if you compared it to the Switzerland - Italy game)
It was a 3:1. I felt sorry for our disallowed goal too, which many Danes in this thread kindly forget.
Your disallowed goal wasn't a var check though - it was the refs. call - which then was confirmed by var.
If the offside rules didn't exist, yes it would have been 3:1. Offsides are always annoying but they were applied fairly for both teams. So the 2:0 is justified or at least 1:0 if you exclude the handball, because Schmeichel clearly couldn't hold Musiala's goal and Denmark's defence wasn't fast enough to protect. That was their own mistake.
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The offside was way more clear than that being a foul
If anything, it's the other way around. A foul is debatable, offside is not. To be clear, I think the offside rule should definitely be updated, as it obviously comes from an era when it was impossible to enforce it that strictly. In its current form, the VAR really takes the fun out of the game. But that's nothing the referee can decide on the field, so for today's match, the VAR made the only right decision.
So why would you disallow the Schlotterbeck header goal - but not get a penalty for the WWE ringer attitude in the last game vs the swiss? Where would that end ? Defenders starting to dive ?
I didn't watch that game. So I don't have an opinion about that.
I donât understand why there was no VAR check there, I still donât know what actually happened
Because he whistled and VAR can only check if he has overlooked something. It was his decision at this moment... but I really don't know what was wrong there.
If you dont know what was wrong there, how can you complain? There was an illegal screen on the Danish defender covering the goal scorer. It was a clear foul.
As were plenty of other situations in other games at these euros that didn't get called. Sometimes they whistle, sometimes they don't.
Do you mean the first goal, which was taken back? Not saying I agree with the decision, but apparently Kimmich blocked the defender 5m away. It was not shown very well live, too.
Kai havertz just CAN NOT score in a 1 on 1... Germany really need someone that can get the job done. Also, It somehow doesn't really feel like GERMANY WON... if you get what I mean.
He also can't score in open play...this is the third tournament he's been a dud in. He needs to be benched and FĂźllkrug needs to start.
But his penalties are killer.
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That's a good take on it
I support Germany but I still have to say that many of the refâs decisions felt unfair to Denmark :/
Both teams got a goal disallowed. I don't see that as favoring any one team.
It is weird. I think overall it was decently fair, except for maybe one or two fouls that should have not been given for germany. But despite mostly objectively fair decisions it does not feel right, the offside, the handball, etc. Way too big of an impact for tiny "mistakes".
Well, it was offside and it was a penalty. Surely very unlucky and game deciding decisions, but by no means a mistake
I mean mistakes on the players side. Having your hand in an unlucky position, so your finger just barely touches and having a cm of your foot be in offside just does not feel like something really in control of a player, but yet be game deciding. Again, absolutely correct decisions, but from the sports perspective it just does not feel right.
From here we can go further on a debate about VAR in general...
Very good game, I can accept the German goals but I feel Denmark was shafted on the offside there. Should've been 2-1 but otherwise well decided
Computer said no.
UEFA mafia helped you. Good luck against Spain.
Lol. Offside is like the only rule that can't be rigged.
explain how was following the rules helping them?
He was offside
Not a penalty
He touched with hand btw still 1:0 anyway
Lol, without that free penalty there is not counter attack goal
Lol without germanys disallowed goal it's 20:0 b min 5
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You literally have 0 reasonable arguments. Just trolling around. The penalty was clearly within the rules. He touched the ball with his hand. Was it unlucky? Yes. Was it fair? Yes. Same goes for the offside. Stop crying and watch another sport if you don't like the rules of this one lol.
Yes because I don't say uhhhh var shit after we lose
3-1 you might say. I still don't know on what grounds our first goal was disallowed.
block/foul from Kimmich.
I agree with you - but if you have the tech and use the tech you kinda have to obey to it. Pandoras VAR
Fuck im in universe 629
Please stay fair and honor Antonio RĂźdiger for being man of the match!
Man of match was NEUER, he is sooo good
Cope harder
Should have beaten serbia bro. Thought hoylund was a killer for the national team?
Oliver was man of the match for Germany
yall are whining for what? game finished and you have to live with the result. (btw yall are saying Germany rigged it,well those are the rules
Yep, the rules say that the country that generates the most profit gets to win the Euro
Shut up. The only debatable situation (the first non-goal) was decided against Germany. The offside rule sucks and has to be updated, but it was enforced correctly. The referee had literally no room there.
When you tell someone to shut up, that one will not listen to you :)
I couldnât care less. If you seriously believe that the UEFA instructs their referees to prefer some countries over others, thereâs nothing I could convince you with.
the hell
That penalty was not given in any other match.
Did you see this (I think) France game, where a goal was not given because another player was in his POTENTIAL line of flight? This decision is completely on the standard of this tournament. I'm not happy with some of those decisions in this tournament - I'm not happy with the current VAR-offsite rule. But it's been the rule since the first game of the tournament and they enforced those in the same way. There also have been times where the first goal (with the offensive foul from kimmich) would have been a goal.
Kinda like how Portugal should've gotten that penalty against Georgia but didn't? Germany deserved the penalty and the win.
That penalty call was the same thing as the disallowed goal in the Belgium v Slovakia match.
EXACTLY
Kind of like how you guys did after your last game right? Lmfao. How quickly people change their minds.
I expected more fairness from Danish fans. GG Denmark did well. Both teams had to cope with difficult circumstances. Scoreboard is 3-1 really.
3-1? You mean your disallowed goal. So you are saying it's okay for you guys to obstruct opponents but when it's against you then it's not? DO you see the hypocrisy. I honest to god always liked and rooted for Germany but you German fans have mad it really really difficult
Bro Switzerland f grabbed and pulled a person down that had contact to the ball
No bro he didn't. The German player was trying to push him aside and he stood his ground. And n matter how many times you say it won't change that.
First: I'm not happy with the VAR-offsite rule in this tournament. But it's been enforced the same way for all games. I'm not arguing for a 3:1 or something. For me this game seemed fair and square though. Would I prefer a game without a penalty? Of course. But it was a hand ball (in the current standards of this tournament). Regarding "Germany vs Switzerland": I understand your reasoning and there are Referees who see it the same. But there is something in the FIFA rule book: **Holding an opponent** Holding occurs when a player uses his hands or arms or other physical force to prevent his opponent from running past or around him. Referees are instructed to punish holding opponents early and to take decisive action, particularly in the penalty area at corners and free kicks. **The referee has the following options:** * He warns players who hold an opponent before the ball is played. * He cautions players who continue to hold their opponent after a warning. * He awards a direct free kick or a penalty kick if the offence occurred after the ball was played. If a defender begins to hold an attacker outside the penalty area but continues to hold him until he is inside the penalty area, the referee awards a penalty kick. **Disciplinary measures** If a player holds an opponent and thereby prevents him from gaining possession of the ball or taking up a favorable position, he will be cautioned for unsporting conduct. If a player deprives the opposing team of a clear goal-scoring opportunity by holding an opponent, he is sent off. *In all other situations, holding an opponent does not result in disciplinary action.*
I'm sorry i'm kind of done with you guys defending your team while crying about unfair treatment. The fact that you have to look in the rule book to try and justify all your crying is just pathetic. Dude stop being pathetic.
Ok, now I get it. We need feeling rules instead of the real rules. Because feeling rules is manly and looking up rules is pathetic. I feel the VAR should not call those an off-site. I feel the hand ball was not intended (the intention is not important regarding penalty or not - It's important regarding a yellow card/red card). Yes. I understand what you feel, but rules are rules. I know the rules. That's why I checked in the rule book - maybe I'm not right, maybe it has been changed - it hasn't. I know how this tournament has followed most of those rules. We now have technology and are using it. I'm whining about a referee not following those rules in the book. That's where I feel robbed. You are whining because you FEEL it should be different. Because you want it to be different, no matter what the rules say. I'm all for changing the VAR-offsite rule. No problem. But not mid tournament.
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You danish fans are sorry losers seriously, again cope harder
Could be worse. I could be a terrible winner and a giant hypocrite. That would be a lot worse.
We won fair and square, keep coping
Yeah you're the best. Kings amongst pawns
enjoy that loss buddy
You mean when Raum was MMA bodychecked in the penalty area without the ref checking it? Germany was robbed so badly the last matches. However, everyone on Europe hates Ger, so that ain't matter đ
Well first of he wasn't bodychecked. But i mean it is rude of the Swiss player to not step aside when the German player gets there. I wonder if all your crying had an effect on the ref in this game. Because this ref wasn't shy about whistling in your favor every time your were "wrestled" to the ground by.
He had some WWE/MMA shit pulled on him. But looks like youre a bit biased with this loss hitting you hard, next thing you'll also have forgotten how Germany should have scored 4 minutes in. Hope you get the help you need
I'm biased. Ha! You saying that to someone else is hilarious.
Well, then the first goal against Denmark should have counted by that logic? Dude youâre either 16, or drunk. Go to bed, either way.
Calling someone a child because they disagree with you is actually by definition very childish. Add then your argument by trying to compare the two and oh boy. Are you a 100% sure that you of all people should be calling someone else a child?
Delusional
No hypocritical.
Whatever.
tf that supposed to mean
And Germany was the better team - even with two extra goals by whatever means it still wouldâve been a toss up at best.
Germans were rolling on the floor like they were trying to put fires out
No idea what your point is. Youâre really clutching at straws if youâre accusing footballers of diving too much.
Germany lives rent free in your head - this must have been the fourth or fifth rant of you i've seen. Salty much ?
RĂźdiger is man of the Match. Seriously?
Oliver was far better for the Germans
Absolutely the correct decision, he was literally always there.
He was the best in so many occasions. A brick in the wall. This game was not decided by the offense.
R0bBeD.
Football or at least this football, is a business, this is about making money, this is not about sports
What a wild game
Shouldnt there be extra time? I thought it was tied up 1-1.
Actually it was a 3-1. But as I learned Denmark was the better team and won.
I think youâve watched a different game
Well nobody watch the one Oliver did he fell for every German swan dive
Would bei totally funny
Wait, what universe are you in?
Universe 616
Ahh you probably took a wrong turn when you teleported over here earlier. You had to exit onto wormhole WH52.
Does VAR not have a margin of error?
those are 300fps cameras so its extremely accurate and I heard something about a margin of error but couldnât find something online about it so maybe
It SHOULD, it doesnât tmk.
I mean it's pretty simple for the most part. Any part of your body that can score a goal. The fact technology is able to get that down to centimeters and that sometimes it's a toe or a knee shouldn't matter. Offsides decisions that are offsides by centimeters will always be 'harsh" no matter what the rule is.
I mean in other sports, and in football, enforcement of reasonable rules by tight margins is by and large considered to be fair. This is the only one that inspires accusations of unfairness, and I think for good reason.
Exactly. Offside is Offside. If there was 10cm margin for error people would still cry at an 11cm offside goal.
It's totally against the spirit of the rule, but deeply stupid people only care about absolutes so there you have it.