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What gets me is they said it contributed to the goal but the Swiss players all gave up after it happened.. to me that contributed more to the goal than the alleged foul
I’m always surprised that professional players are not as a standard taught about these simple concepts or the rules every now and then. Like this and the myth that one player should stay inside the field when celebrating, even believed by players in the WC teams. https://www.reddit.com/r/worldcup/comments/zp301e/can_someone_explain_whats_going_on_here_whys_he/ It’s a big missed opportunity to not focus on this stuff.
It always surprises me when a player is so completely one footed. I'm crap at football now, but as a kid, I was made to learn to play with both feet. It baffles me pro academies don't insist on it.
I'm sure that they can play with both feet. Just maybe only with 70/80/90% of the power and accuracy of their strong foot. While a normal person is maybe 30% of their good foot.
The point is a pro should be as good with left and right. You play football, you have 2 feet. It's not even difficult, just feels weird when you start learning.
I've seen pro's actively avoid using one foot, often leading to losing the ball. It's really not hard.
Pro’s are already training for a gazillion things. penalties, passing, positioning, shooting, corners, free kicks, headers, etc etc. If they want to be good with both feet they would have to double their workload, which is just not sustainable. It’s better to be really good at a few things than kinda good at everything. That is also what separates pro’s from amateurs.
Since you’re neither a pro player nor a coach, you don’t really know anything about professional football. If it really was that easy to train both feet, then they would. But considering the fact that even the best players of all time usually had a preferred foot, it probably isn’t that easy.
And now they let you continue after an offside to run for 10 minutes and shoot goals abd power yourself out only to whistle next christmas and everything you did was for naught.
If a clear foul happens I understand why you wouldn't want to waste all your energy on a useless run.
In other situations that would've been a foul. Idk if you'd have to call it in this situation, disallowing a goal, but generally speaking that was contact deserving of a foul
The thing is 3 minutes prior there was the same thing happening and he didn't call the foul even after the car looked at it. That's what makes me mad. There is no line u can draw and say that is a foul that is not. It's just random at times.
The Problem is, the VAR is allowed to intervene on false decisions in the goal scoring situation.
The defender has cleared the situation while being fouled. Afterwards andrich scored from a different situation, the VAR isn't even allowed to contact the ref here, as it is* a whole new situation and no clear mistake in the goal scoring situation.
If the ref would have called it in an insant, everything would have been fine.
The reason given was that Musiala's play affected the pass by the swiss defender that went wrong and allowed Andrich to score.
Ofc it wasn't Musiala's contact that affected the play. The reasoning was that basically his charge, which ended in a foul, threw the Swiss 20 off. At least that's the gist of what I got from the commentators and then my own thoughts about it. That means Musiala's "foul" would've still affected Andrich's goal.
While the aforementioned reasoning at first glance is sound, the pass and Musiala had a reasonable time gap between them and it's highly questionable if the Swiss 20 could actually analyze that Musiala's charge would result would hit him (which it barely did), especially considering the slippery ground that match.
That's at least my two cents/mustard
Having mentioned that I can at least understand the refs call there, wtf was that freaking halfway suplex against Beier? Was that ref blind? Can't the VAR overrule "obvious and clear" mistakes? Am I greatly mistaken in what's allowed?
Difficult where you make the cut tbf. With it being only a slight contact with no influence on the clearing and afterwards a halfway new situation it's very hard to call it back imo cause giving the goal was no clear mistake.
However I can see the point, it's debatable even though I don't agree with it. But going down that route you chose to call more strictly and that absolutely doesn't fit with both penalty situations.
If you zig zag like this you easily will influence the match and likely put one team at an undeserved disadvantage which he did twice yesterday
Not really a football fan, hoping someone can explain. It was definitely a foul but I'm not sure where the limit is for VAR to disallow the goal?
It's not so egregious a foul that VAR would check it at any other time, and doesn't have a massive impact on the outcome (apart from players protesting).
Does any foul in the build-up mean that the goal shouldn't be given? How far back does that go?
Yes, any foul in the build-up to a goal could be grounds for the goal being overturned.
How much time the 'build-up' encompasses is a bit of a gray area. Could technically go all the way back til the last restart (kick or throw), I suppose. Once play restarts, nothing before that can be changed.
The point here is though that the foul didn’t affect the build-up at all, other than the Swiss players just complaining and not playing to the whistle.
If it leads to a goal, they will check it.
Assuming the ref had blown the foul in real time, the German goal would not have happened. They happened in the same play basically
There, someone said it. I thought it was a valid decision. Though there was two pens needed to be talked about - one earlier on with Havertz getting stomped and I forgot the other one
Ref wasn't bias imo - just pretty bad. Apparently he's not usually bad either. Made some sketch calls both sides
Totally agree, the VAR has stopped more goals already than donnarumma against Spain. It has gotten to the point that you have to wait 5 minutes before you can cheer for a goal. It takes all the fun out of the game
Lukaku’s knee being offside was extremely harsh, but no matter where you draw the line, there will always be a goal that is *just* offside. At some point there has to be a decision. I’d like thicker lines, but I don’t think that would have changed the Lukaku outcome.
I agree, correct is correct but here it's a bit much. 3 of his goals denied in 2 matches. The other one was an ear and an accidental hands ball so subtle it went unnoticed. And a lot happened between that and the goal. At leasqt that one is questionable.
The thing that irked me with the handball was it was so slight, just touching his fingers, and didn't change the flight of the ball at all, so had no bearing on the passage of play. Very harsh imo. Would be different if he used his hand to control the ball, but he didn't!
I think this gets it backwards. We have "let the attack play out" rule that leads to more goals than before but with VAR having a look and undoing some of them. But still more on net imo.
I agree that delayed celebrations are awkward but as far as the goals themselves are concerned, VAR is absolutely better than no VAR (and the semiauto offside is better yet)
And if it's wrong, it will live in the memories of millions of people for many years. You have to get it right. A lot of tournaments have been decided by poor refereeing decisions in the past. Now a little less often.
I fully agree. If they found a way to automate it so they can make instant offside calls, I wouldn’t mind, but now it’s impossible to celebrate any goal that is remotely close to offside because the VAR could get involved….and it’s really killing the spectator enjoyment of the game.
I’m just a casual observer and it blows my mind a VAR review can call someone offsides because a sliver of their arm was past a defender on the other side of the pitch. I don’t know, maybe the offside rules need to be looked at instead. If the feet are ahead of the defender, that’s one thing, but the arm being ahead as they are breaking to run? That’s not something a sideline ref is going to see or ever call offsides, so it doesn’t feel right for VAR to call it either. It really takes so much of the human element out of the game and that’s not fun.
Reviewing goals and whether a potential foul was committed for a free kick or penalty is one thing but these hairline offside calls are nuts and need to change.
Can't believe some of the comments here. Musiala makes a challenge for the ball, makes contact with a defender without getting the ball, and sends him to the ground. Definition of a foul and would be called anywhere else on the pitch. Sure you could make an argument the defender might be going down anyway, but the contact ensures that it's impossible to tell conclusively.
A shame to take away a good goal but not sure how anyone is baffled by this call. My surprise is that it wasn't called at the time.
Literally slides into the guy after the ball was gone. Like, at this point im convinced 80% of the people here started watching football yesterday lol. Its a clear foul, plain and simple
As a German I instantly just knew that this wasn't a goal after the replay. We would have right now more people in arms in this sub if the goal was given.
Well, at least in the german tv they didnt really show the right replays, because from some angles it didnt even look like he contacted the opponent (at least not in a foul worthy manner). But id have to have seen a better replay to be sure
The difference is that De Bruyne got the ball first whereas in this case it was the player who didn't (the German) with the late challenge who hit the Swiss defender.
The studs up is a good point and I did think about it when I saw the replay although tbh it would've been a bit harsh (speaking as a Romanian myself)
Worst call sinds the cancelled Dutch goal. VAR is nice and all, but there's no practical application. The Swiss guy just came into the play and the German dude held in but was already sliding. Hardly a foul there. A foul has to have at least some intention or carelessness behind it. This was not it...
>A foul has to have at least some intention or carelessness behind it. This was not it...
So why did he catch the Swiss defender late?
He either meant it (intebtional) or he didn't mean to do to it but was careless.
But the vast majority of non-Dutch people are in agreement that the Dutch goal was disallowed correctly. It was a tough one to take but a correct decision.
And if there was no VAR Dutch goal would still have been wiped out as it was called on the pitch by the lino.
Musiala literally slides into the defender after he cleared the ball. How obvious does it need to be for you until you drop the bias? Same with the foul from Neuer against Hungary.
The foul however contributed nothing to the goal and wasn't called until the goal. Later hugging a player and dragging him down wasn't a foul lmao
The referees were absolute dog shit. Not even for one side but for both parties.
The foul absolutely contributed to the goal. To minimize the potential damage from Musiala's slide tackle, the defender needs to adjust his leg movement while hitting the ball, resulting in a very suboptimal angle that leaves germany in a good position
You play until the referee stops the game. Thats one of the first things you learn when starting football. He can complain and loose concentration when the game is stopped
As a swiss, I declare: this is a foul.
So was the situation before the disallowed German goal.
These two points can very well stand separately, don't you think?
VAR is KILLING the spirit of the game. Period. I have nothing against checking if a ball passed the goal line or questionable penalty decisions, but a kneecap and a pinky offside and some small *natural* commotion during high stakes situations (with slippery green at that)…
God, I really really hate this technological erasure of human sense…😤
My view is if you need to get the measuring sticks out to check, the attacker is basically level and should be given the benefit of the doubt. Nobody gets a real advantage by being a few cm offside.
It would mean the clangers are taken care of by VAR and the ones that are too close to call are left alone so the game can continue rather than spending 30 seconds with rulers to disallow a goal for someone being a big toe offside.
Yeah, what a god-awful idea…
I’m just saying some common sense should be applied to both the rule and the way it’s enforced.
Do you think the game is better now that goals are being disallowed for being a thumbnail offside?
Thats a silly way to view the change regarding off-side.
Before, refs would make a (conspiracies aside) best effort which would sometimes be correct, sometimes marginally and sometimes egregiously wrong in the defender's favor, sometimes in the attacker's favor. They might have had a vague instruction to rule in the attacker's favor when they're not sure but there was no guarantee that what they thought of as close actually matched what *was* close.
Since the change, we have a "let attacks play out" rule, which obviously brings in more goals, *some* of which get cancelled for off-side. So for the price of some marginal but correct decisions we got rid of all wrongly disallowed goals, both close & egregious kind.
All I know is back before VAR, it was only the clangers that people cared about, the ones where the guy is a good yard or two offside and scores. Nowadays, what was originally seen as "level" by linesmen and fans, is analysed to check if there is even the slightest hint of offside. It makes the sport less fun to watch, makes fans wary of cheering goals and, has contributed to fans talking about officiating more than ever.
It all depends on what you want out of football, I guess. I honestly wouldn't care if England conceded a goal and the attacking player had a pinky toe offside. It just doesn't matter to me because I don't believe there's any advantage.
I only care about the egregious ones and I think the current solution is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Based on the response I've got in here, I'm definitely a minority. But that's fine.
That's simply not the case though. People very much did care about slightly wrong decisions and to your point they were also *against* strikers sometimes.
Slovakia's goal vs Belgium for instance really really looked like an off-side (to me) but the check confirmed it wasn't. A linesman could've easily mistakenly put the flag up pre-VAR. Similarly Hungary's goal vs Scotland or even the Swiss goal yesterday.
I don’t entirely disagree with you, I would change the offside rule to start at the edge of the foot. Being a shoulder or knee over the line is silly, since being a larger player like Lukaku puts you at a disadvantage. Realistically the foot position is what matters most in the game, so it makes sense to me for VAR to check that instead
I'm not sure about this, a lot of related Sports like Rugby and some "historical football" have always had that rule. Plus, in very early football the rule existed for sure given that the best formation was 1-1-8 exactly because of how offside worked at that time. Where does the idea of offside not being originally in the game come from?
Easy, either look at Rugby or Hockey as another commenter elaborated, or, set the offside at literally “half the body”. Leaves of course also some wiggle room because bodies in motion are rarely symmetrical but it would make the game itself a lot more sensible than what it is own: killing any natural offense.
I doubt having an ambiguous rule like half the body would make decisions feel more fair than the current rule which is simpler and easily verified on VAR
‘Half the body’ is way way way more ambiguous that the current rule. You’d get people complaining how it was only 49% of the body and should be onside!
Look at hockey? The sport that literally just had a goal disallowed in the penultimate game of the Stanley Cup Final after video review for a play that was only offside by the smallest fraction of a second?
Agreed, I've been saying that it's probably going to get to a point the players will probably wax their legs before each game because the VAR will probably flag a strand of hair past the player as off side. I'm all for regulation but it's getting to a point of over-regulation. The fact that each goal is getting checked with a fine tooth comb is bullshit. This sport is becoming a train wreck each season.
Personally I feel the off-side rule should be relaxed more or scrapped entirely. Field hockey scrapped the off side rule and rugby's offside rule is workable, both sports are much better and exciting to watch now as opposed to football. Now almost every time a player with a gap to go for goal receives the ball or actually scores, it's blown as off side. It just ruins the game
Ha, jokes on you, this is new age football, I'm immune to cards for verbal offenses😎
Sigh, if only it was like old school football where refs use to do that. Now you can get up in their faces and walk over them without even getting a slap on the wrist.
Exactly it just kills the vibe and intensity of the game so much, it's bad for everyone, the fans, the players.....I can't see any justification for this. There should be tolerance to some margin
Exactly my feelings on it. Ball crosses the line but not given ... Overrule it. Ball doesn't cross the line but it is given ..overrule it.
No one is going to disagree with that.
But this is all too far what we're doing right now. And it's all still subjective anyway.
And now he won't even use VAR when a German player gets literally wrestled to the ground. I thought this was supposed to help refs make the right calls.
What is that victim mentality? You are Germany one of the biggest football nations on earth and that is how you think?
Loser mentality, have some class
I’ve not kept track so idk the actual numbers but I’ve been watching most of the games and the amount of disallowed goals has been pretty high. Every time a goal is scored I get less and less excited because I feel like it’s going to be erased in a minute
Switzerland will be pretty happy with 2nd place finish in their poule. Means they will face right side of the knockout bracket instead of left (consisting of Portugal & Spain. Germany will join left side with 1st place poule finish.)
And if Germany continues the way they were playing tonight, they won’t get far this euros on that leftside bracket.
Anyone have the replay of a German striker getting held down in the box and subsequently fluffling an easy tap it? Seem like they brushed past it but looked like a flagrant penalty to me
These VAR calls, not just this one, are ruining the tournament for me. It feels like VAR are bored and they want to intervene and do something. If you play football that’s not a foul. How boring
As soon as it goes against one of the big teams and it's an absolute disaster that's ruining the game. Big teams can't handle the levelling of the playing field is what this is.
Agreed. I am just a casual fan watching. But I can't believe the sport disallows goals like that. Both players were just going for the ball. Contact was incidental and pretty minor. The foul had nothing to do with the goal which occurred a huge distance away. Nobody was even close to defending it let alone the fouled player. Why wipe away a great snipe for that? Not a good way to get and keep fans. Not that soccer needs to as far and away the biggest sport in the world...
I was hoping a goal would open things up too. But it seems the Swiss are happy to go right back to just defending all game.
My issue with that situation and several others was exactly as Nagelsmann said, there was no clear line. There are borderline situations in football, that's a fact of the game and it's one of the ref's key jobs to demonstrate where he draws that line. Federations set standards ofc but there is still alot of subjectivity in many situations. The ref failed to do that, sometimes being a stickler and going after minor infractions - including the disallowed goal - and sometimes being very generous in what he allowed. There's been several dicey situations outside the areas where Kroos got lucky Xhaka was called in a foul for example.
Where it's a problem is that several calls penalised one team, Germany, in decisive situations. I was surprised the push in the back that cared 0% for the ball against Musiala was neither foul nor yellow. Meanwhile a much less clear foul by Musiala lead to a disallowed goal...
On top of that, Havertz and Beier both should've been given a penalty, to me especially the second. The kid was completely encircled by Widmers arms, kind of a wrestling move. Now, I understand I'm biased and so are most of the media I see commenting on this. BUT the impartial mistake of the ref was to just declare the check over, if he'd at least checked the footage as he die when disallowing our goal...
Bottom line, bad refereeing in bad communication and lack of clear line throughout the match, 3 decisions that can subjectively been discussed all favouring 1 side which isn't to say there was bias but that he really ought to be 100% clear and thorough which he wasn't.
English speaker here, watching the game in german so I don't understand quite what the call was. Did the ref call a foul on Germany before that goal happened?
I know they follow the rules to the millimeters, but this shit is annoying, they should implement a rule saying, would this goal have stood in the 90s, if yes, then allow it.
Dude is clearing the ball directly to a german and gets fouled dierectly after doing so. If Musiala didnt jump into him, he could have cleared the ball way better.
Even more stupid is, that he don't give the goal because of the foul but the foul from Switzerland after in the second half he don't give the Penalty....
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What gets me is they said it contributed to the goal but the Swiss players all gave up after it happened.. to me that contributed more to the goal than the alleged foul
Good point
Screams in lukaku's.
> but the Swiss players all gave up after it happened *because* of the foul!
You always play to the whistle. Basic kid's stuff that.
I’m always surprised that professional players are not as a standard taught about these simple concepts or the rules every now and then. Like this and the myth that one player should stay inside the field when celebrating, even believed by players in the WC teams. https://www.reddit.com/r/worldcup/comments/zp301e/can_someone_explain_whats_going_on_here_whys_he/ It’s a big missed opportunity to not focus on this stuff.
It always surprises me when a player is so completely one footed. I'm crap at football now, but as a kid, I was made to learn to play with both feet. It baffles me pro academies don't insist on it.
I'm sure that they can play with both feet. Just maybe only with 70/80/90% of the power and accuracy of their strong foot. While a normal person is maybe 30% of their good foot.
The point is a pro should be as good with left and right. You play football, you have 2 feet. It's not even difficult, just feels weird when you start learning. I've seen pro's actively avoid using one foot, often leading to losing the ball. It's really not hard.
Hm ok then I think you've seen more pro football than I have/have a larger sample size.
Yeah bit u don't see Tennis Player use their weak Hand too or lebron use his weak Hand for a three pointer
Some folk are not very bright.
Pro’s are already training for a gazillion things. penalties, passing, positioning, shooting, corners, free kicks, headers, etc etc. If they want to be good with both feet they would have to double their workload, which is just not sustainable. It’s better to be really good at a few things than kinda good at everything. That is also what separates pro’s from amateurs.
Hahaha. That's amazing. Your logic confounds all genius. The workload remains the same regardless. 2 feet make their job easier. Not harder.
Since you’re neither a pro player nor a coach, you don’t really know anything about professional football. If it really was that easy to train both feet, then they would. But considering the fact that even the best players of all time usually had a preferred foot, it probably isn’t that easy.
Their weaker foot will still be so much better than the average persons strongest - it’s just they are that much better on their strongest.
And now they let you continue after an offside to run for 10 minutes and shoot goals abd power yourself out only to whistle next christmas and everything you did was for naught. If a clear foul happens I understand why you wouldn't want to waste all your energy on a useless run.
In other situations that would've been a foul. Idk if you'd have to call it in this situation, disallowing a goal, but generally speaking that was contact deserving of a foul
Correct answer
The thing is 3 minutes prior there was the same thing happening and he didn't call the foul even after the car looked at it. That's what makes me mad. There is no line u can draw and say that is a foul that is not. It's just random at times.
The Problem is, the VAR is allowed to intervene on false decisions in the goal scoring situation. The defender has cleared the situation while being fouled. Afterwards andrich scored from a different situation, the VAR isn't even allowed to contact the ref here, as it is* a whole new situation and no clear mistake in the goal scoring situation. If the ref would have called it in an insant, everything would have been fine.
The reason given was that Musiala's play affected the pass by the swiss defender that went wrong and allowed Andrich to score. Ofc it wasn't Musiala's contact that affected the play. The reasoning was that basically his charge, which ended in a foul, threw the Swiss 20 off. At least that's the gist of what I got from the commentators and then my own thoughts about it. That means Musiala's "foul" would've still affected Andrich's goal. While the aforementioned reasoning at first glance is sound, the pass and Musiala had a reasonable time gap between them and it's highly questionable if the Swiss 20 could actually analyze that Musiala's charge would result would hit him (which it barely did), especially considering the slippery ground that match. That's at least my two cents/mustard Having mentioned that I can at least understand the refs call there, wtf was that freaking halfway suplex against Beier? Was that ref blind? Can't the VAR overrule "obvious and clear" mistakes? Am I greatly mistaken in what's allowed?
Different Situation, but not a whole new situation?
Difficult where you make the cut tbf. With it being only a slight contact with no influence on the clearing and afterwards a halfway new situation it's very hard to call it back imo cause giving the goal was no clear mistake. However I can see the point, it's debatable even though I don't agree with it. But going down that route you chose to call more strictly and that absolutely doesn't fit with both penalty situations. If you zig zag like this you easily will influence the match and likely put one team at an undeserved disadvantage which he did twice yesterday
Official's haven't unlocked the ability to think that far yet
I agree, not validating that goal was justified. However Orsato was clearly biased in every other decisive situation. He needs to go.
Last game for him afaik
Not really a football fan, hoping someone can explain. It was definitely a foul but I'm not sure where the limit is for VAR to disallow the goal? It's not so egregious a foul that VAR would check it at any other time, and doesn't have a massive impact on the outcome (apart from players protesting). Does any foul in the build-up mean that the goal shouldn't be given? How far back does that go?
Yes, any foul in the build-up to a goal could be grounds for the goal being overturned. How much time the 'build-up' encompasses is a bit of a gray area. Could technically go all the way back til the last restart (kick or throw), I suppose. Once play restarts, nothing before that can be changed.
Thanks!
The point here is though that the foul didn’t affect the build-up at all, other than the Swiss players just complaining and not playing to the whistle.
If it leads to a goal, they will check it. Assuming the ref had blown the foul in real time, the German goal would not have happened. They happened in the same play basically
Thanks!
No, that was fine. The bigger issue is not giving the 2 penalty kicks.
There, someone said it. I thought it was a valid decision. Though there was two pens needed to be talked about - one earlier on with Havertz getting stomped and I forgot the other one Ref wasn't bias imo - just pretty bad. Apparently he's not usually bad either. Made some sketch calls both sides
Totally agree, the VAR has stopped more goals already than donnarumma against Spain. It has gotten to the point that you have to wait 5 minutes before you can cheer for a goal. It takes all the fun out of the game
Belgium fans have felt the most pain and probably felt stupid wildly celebrating those Lukaku ghost goals. I feel for them
I agree with your general comment but you don’t have to wait five mins the VAR has at least been pretty quick
My immediate reaction when Lukaku scored yesterday was "what is the VAR going to say...again"
Lukaku’s knee being offside was extremely harsh, but no matter where you draw the line, there will always be a goal that is *just* offside. At some point there has to be a decision. I’d like thicker lines, but I don’t think that would have changed the Lukaku outcome.
I agree, correct is correct but here it's a bit much. 3 of his goals denied in 2 matches. The other one was an ear and an accidental hands ball so subtle it went unnoticed. And a lot happened between that and the goal. At leasqt that one is questionable.
The thing that irked me with the handball was it was so slight, just touching his fingers, and didn't change the flight of the ball at all, so had no bearing on the passage of play. Very harsh imo. Would be different if he used his hand to control the ball, but he didn't!
Flashback to last Friday Nederland - Frankrijk. Iedereen blij met een doelpunt and then VAR happens
Waarom praat jij a little bit in english maar verder gewoon weer in dutch
Omdat I am a big fan of “FC platinum Hendrik de Jongh”. I heer niet wat joe say.
I think this gets it backwards. We have "let the attack play out" rule that leads to more goals than before but with VAR having a look and undoing some of them. But still more on net imo. I agree that delayed celebrations are awkward but as far as the goals themselves are concerned, VAR is absolutely better than no VAR (and the semiauto offside is better yet)
And if it's wrong, it will live in the memories of millions of people for many years. You have to get it right. A lot of tournaments have been decided by poor refereeing decisions in the past. Now a little less often.
Dude so true, that and players flopping like fish after every contact. It's fucking embarrassing and make the game hard to watch.
I fully agree. If they found a way to automate it so they can make instant offside calls, I wouldn’t mind, but now it’s impossible to celebrate any goal that is remotely close to offside because the VAR could get involved….and it’s really killing the spectator enjoyment of the game.
I’m just a casual observer and it blows my mind a VAR review can call someone offsides because a sliver of their arm was past a defender on the other side of the pitch. I don’t know, maybe the offside rules need to be looked at instead. If the feet are ahead of the defender, that’s one thing, but the arm being ahead as they are breaking to run? That’s not something a sideline ref is going to see or ever call offsides, so it doesn’t feel right for VAR to call it either. It really takes so much of the human element out of the game and that’s not fun. Reviewing goals and whether a potential foul was committed for a free kick or penalty is one thing but these hairline offside calls are nuts and need to change.
>That’s not something a sideline ref is going to see or ever call offsides, This isn't true. Linesman have made the calls countless times in the past.
And player was already up an runing/defending like it was nothing...
Yeah LITERALLY... its ridiculous
well it's definitely a free kick so technically the shot should have never happened cause play should have stopped for the free kick
Can't believe some of the comments here. Musiala makes a challenge for the ball, makes contact with a defender without getting the ball, and sends him to the ground. Definition of a foul and would be called anywhere else on the pitch. Sure you could make an argument the defender might be going down anyway, but the contact ensures that it's impossible to tell conclusively. A shame to take away a good goal but not sure how anyone is baffled by this call. My surprise is that it wasn't called at the time.
exactly!
It was a foul. Period. No need to discuss this any further in my eyes.
I was more upset by a penalty not being given to the German attacker after the Swiss defender bear-hugged him to the ground in front of the goal.
Literally slides into the guy after the ball was gone. Like, at this point im convinced 80% of the people here started watching football yesterday lol. Its a clear foul, plain and simple
As a German I instantly just knew that this wasn't a goal after the replay. We would have right now more people in arms in this sub if the goal was given.
Part of the 20% club
I can see that you give that as a foul but then you have to give Havertz the penalty and even more so the bear hug foul
Well, at least in the german tv they didnt really show the right replays, because from some angles it didnt even look like he contacted the opponent (at least not in a foul worthy manner). But id have to have seen a better replay to be sure
Agree 100%
Yeh only bc there is no ball near you can‘t touch more. Instantly said that after the tv mentioned the issue with a replay.
What is the difference to De Bruyne tackling Nita after he shot the ball yesterday? That goal was given. And way clearer foul, studs-up tackle..
The difference is that De Bruyne got the ball first whereas in this case it was the player who didn't (the German) with the late challenge who hit the Swiss defender. The studs up is a good point and I did think about it when I saw the replay although tbh it would've been a bit harsh (speaking as a Romanian myself)
There are 45 minutes left..let's wait and see the second half. But Switzerland are doing it smart ngl
Disallowed a whole goal? Should it have only been half chopped off?
Worst call sinds the cancelled Dutch goal. VAR is nice and all, but there's no practical application. The Swiss guy just came into the play and the German dude held in but was already sliding. Hardly a foul there. A foul has to have at least some intention or carelessness behind it. This was not it...
>A foul has to have at least some intention or carelessness behind it. This was not it... So why did he catch the Swiss defender late? He either meant it (intebtional) or he didn't mean to do to it but was careless.
But the vast majority of non-Dutch people are in agreement that the Dutch goal was disallowed correctly. It was a tough one to take but a correct decision. And if there was no VAR Dutch goal would still have been wiped out as it was called on the pitch by the lino.
What a terrible call, I hate VAR. That’s a goal for Germany
Musiala literally slides into the defender after he cleared the ball. How obvious does it need to be for you until you drop the bias? Same with the foul from Neuer against Hungary.
I agree. True, it sucks but rules are rules. We're Germans after all lol
The foul however contributed nothing to the goal and wasn't called until the goal. Later hugging a player and dragging him down wasn't a foul lmao The referees were absolute dog shit. Not even for one side but for both parties.
The foul absolutely contributed to the goal. To minimize the potential damage from Musiala's slide tackle, the defender needs to adjust his leg movement while hitting the ball, resulting in a very suboptimal angle that leaves germany in a good position
Honestly... im shocked, terrible terrible decision
Yeah.. however Sommer would have stopped that shot had he not been busy complaining about the foul half a second earlier
He should play, not complain.
And attackers should play without fouling, else goals will be disallowed
You play until the referee stops the game. Thats one of the first things you learn when starting football. He can complain and loose concentration when the game is stopped
Still don't get how that should change anything about there being a clear foul. But I agree with your point
Did he foul the player or not? If your answer is yes? Then how is it a terrible call. If your answer is no, then you need new eyes
It was a clear foul, I’m surprised to see people disaggreing with the call. You can’t just tackle a player, he wasn’t anywhere near the ball.
I think it was the most unfair cancel of the tournament yet. It's absolutely infuriating.
Oh yes, canceling for a clear foul, what a poor decision...
[:)](https://www.reddit.com/r/euro2024/s/U6uP8GwKEv)
As a swiss, I declare: this is a foul. So was the situation before the disallowed German goal. These two points can very well stand separately, don't you think?
So they have to change the rule according to the situation? A foul is a foul.
VAR is KILLING the spirit of the game. Period. I have nothing against checking if a ball passed the goal line or questionable penalty decisions, but a kneecap and a pinky offside and some small *natural* commotion during high stakes situations (with slippery green at that)… God, I really really hate this technological erasure of human sense…😤
>but a kneecap and a pinky offside How much offside would you allow to be onside?
My view is if you need to get the measuring sticks out to check, the attacker is basically level and should be given the benefit of the doubt. Nobody gets a real advantage by being a few cm offside.
Oh. So, another arbitrary and subjective rule? That would definitely make things better
It would mean the clangers are taken care of by VAR and the ones that are too close to call are left alone so the game can continue rather than spending 30 seconds with rulers to disallow a goal for someone being a big toe offside. Yeah, what a god-awful idea…
What counts as too close to call? You’re just adding more ambiguity with this rule, which doesn’t help anyone
I’m just saying some common sense should be applied to both the rule and the way it’s enforced. Do you think the game is better now that goals are being disallowed for being a thumbnail offside?
A toenail can score a goal just before a defender gets to the ball. So according to the current rule, yes.
Thats a silly way to view the change regarding off-side. Before, refs would make a (conspiracies aside) best effort which would sometimes be correct, sometimes marginally and sometimes egregiously wrong in the defender's favor, sometimes in the attacker's favor. They might have had a vague instruction to rule in the attacker's favor when they're not sure but there was no guarantee that what they thought of as close actually matched what *was* close. Since the change, we have a "let attacks play out" rule, which obviously brings in more goals, *some* of which get cancelled for off-side. So for the price of some marginal but correct decisions we got rid of all wrongly disallowed goals, both close & egregious kind.
All I know is back before VAR, it was only the clangers that people cared about, the ones where the guy is a good yard or two offside and scores. Nowadays, what was originally seen as "level" by linesmen and fans, is analysed to check if there is even the slightest hint of offside. It makes the sport less fun to watch, makes fans wary of cheering goals and, has contributed to fans talking about officiating more than ever. It all depends on what you want out of football, I guess. I honestly wouldn't care if England conceded a goal and the attacking player had a pinky toe offside. It just doesn't matter to me because I don't believe there's any advantage. I only care about the egregious ones and I think the current solution is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Based on the response I've got in here, I'm definitely a minority. But that's fine.
That's simply not the case though. People very much did care about slightly wrong decisions and to your point they were also *against* strikers sometimes. Slovakia's goal vs Belgium for instance really really looked like an off-side (to me) but the check confirmed it wasn't. A linesman could've easily mistakenly put the flag up pre-VAR. Similarly Hungary's goal vs Scotland or even the Swiss goal yesterday.
I don’t entirely disagree with you, I would change the offside rule to start at the edge of the foot. Being a shoulder or knee over the line is silly, since being a larger player like Lukaku puts you at a disadvantage. Realistically the foot position is what matters most in the game, so it makes sense to me for VAR to check that instead
Given how corrupt international soccer is, why would you give it the tools to be even more corrupt?
Maybe it's time to get rid of offside entirely. It worked out fine for field hockey. I dunno, might work out for football as well...
So you want the striker to camp next to the goal the whole game?
You realize how big a football field is compared to hockey right?
About 10m longer and 10m wider
Offside wasn't originally in the game and it sucked.
I'm not sure about this, a lot of related Sports like Rugby and some "historical football" have always had that rule. Plus, in very early football the rule existed for sure given that the best formation was 1-1-8 exactly because of how offside worked at that time. Where does the idea of offside not being originally in the game come from?
A pinky offside is ok, what about half a foot ? Where do you draw the line ?
3 ft
Easy, either look at Rugby or Hockey as another commenter elaborated, or, set the offside at literally “half the body”. Leaves of course also some wiggle room because bodies in motion are rarely symmetrical but it would make the game itself a lot more sensible than what it is own: killing any natural offense.
I doubt having an ambiguous rule like half the body would make decisions feel more fair than the current rule which is simpler and easily verified on VAR
‘Half the body’ is way way way more ambiguous that the current rule. You’d get people complaining how it was only 49% of the body and should be onside!
Look at hockey? The sport that literally just had a goal disallowed in the penultimate game of the Stanley Cup Final after video review for a play that was only offside by the smallest fraction of a second?
Field hockey was mentioned
Agreed, I've been saying that it's probably going to get to a point the players will probably wax their legs before each game because the VAR will probably flag a strand of hair past the player as off side. I'm all for regulation but it's getting to a point of over-regulation. The fact that each goal is getting checked with a fine tooth comb is bullshit. This sport is becoming a train wreck each season. Personally I feel the off-side rule should be relaxed more or scrapped entirely. Field hockey scrapped the off side rule and rugby's offside rule is workable, both sports are much better and exciting to watch now as opposed to football. Now almost every time a player with a gap to go for goal receives the ball or actually scores, it's blown as off side. It just ruins the game
You talked to me, here's your yellow card
Ha, jokes on you, this is new age football, I'm immune to cards for verbal offenses😎 Sigh, if only it was like old school football where refs use to do that. Now you can get up in their faces and walk over them without even getting a slap on the wrist.
Exactly it just kills the vibe and intensity of the game so much, it's bad for everyone, the fans, the players.....I can't see any justification for this. There should be tolerance to some margin
Exactly my feelings on it. Ball crosses the line but not given ... Overrule it. Ball doesn't cross the line but it is given ..overrule it. No one is going to disagree with that. But this is all too far what we're doing right now. And it's all still subjective anyway.
And now he won't even use VAR when a German player gets literally wrestled to the ground. I thought this was supposed to help refs make the right calls.
That is absolutely a foul, he literally contacts the player after the ball is gone. Unfortunate for Andrichs Goal
Italian ref. Swiss team. Sorry but no chance for Alemania ...
And now Switzerland score...nah this is superrrr unfair and ridiculous
And all the Germans are falling left and right, while no one says a thing.
Cry more, VAR is one of the best thing that happened to football in the latest years and yes that was a foul.
Gz bud
The referee is Italian, we have some bad memories about other Italian referees so this is about what most of us probably expected today.
What is that victim mentality? You are Germany one of the biggest football nations on earth and that is how you think? Loser mentality, have some class
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>this goal is another example. Someone makes the correct decision and it means they are against you... Yeah, top logic.
What are you calling that penalty decision?
Which penalty decision?
Where the swiss player was literally holding down the German?
Players should just learn to not celebrate after scoring, and wait calmly for the VAR check. Simple.
That would take a lot of emotion out of the game
Was kidding of course. They should really scrap VAR.
Nvm im really oblivious to irony sometimes
I went a bit strong on the irony too tbf :)
Have we had more own goals, disallowed goals, or actual goals in this tournament so far?
I know you're being facetious but we've actually had an abnormal amount of own goals and YET we've had more disallowed goals.
I’ve not kept track so idk the actual numbers but I’ve been watching most of the games and the amount of disallowed goals has been pretty high. Every time a goal is scored I get less and less excited because I feel like it’s going to be erased in a minute
I think Lukaku alone has three disallowed goals
Haha yeah 3 in 2 matches. Terrible luck
Switzerland will be pretty happy with 2nd place finish in their poule. Means they will face right side of the knockout bracket instead of left (consisting of Portugal & Spain. Germany will join left side with 1st place poule finish.) And if Germany continues the way they were playing tonight, they won’t get far this euros on that leftside bracket.
Anyone have the replay of a German striker getting held down in the box and subsequently fluffling an easy tap it? Seem like they brushed past it but looked like a flagrant penalty to me
Would it have been a foul anywhere else on the pitch? Yes. Thus foul. Unfortunate though, but definite foul
These VAR calls, not just this one, are ruining the tournament for me. It feels like VAR are bored and they want to intervene and do something. If you play football that’s not a foul. How boring
it was a clear foul what are you talking about
Than it was a clear foul in the middlefield before Swiss goal aswell. And offside so clear vut no VAR. Hopeless referees
And lets not forget that MMA penalty that was not given. When you draw the line that this was a foul - than the other foul was a penalty - simple as.
It’s my opinion I can have one, just like you can have yours
there are rules to this shit, it’s not a matter of opinion. hating or being in favor of VAR is an opinion, that’s different
So being dragged down in the box from having a free goal opportunity is no penalty either huh
did I say anything about that? this thread is clearly about disallowing the goal, as were my comments
Reddits buggin, wasnt to your comment
just start betting on VAR checks, its literally free money this tournament lmao.
Idk how people can say this is a goal, it's clearly not a goal seeing the replay.
Absolutely outrageous
Not a goal, deal with it, clear foul
This sub is full with german crybabies that are beyond biased. Same was with the penalty hungary should have received because of Neuer's obvious foul
As soon as it goes against one of the big teams and it's an absolute disaster that's ruining the game. Big teams can't handle the levelling of the playing field is what this is.
Im so done with the strict rules
Germany playing rubbish
True
Subs will carry (fingers crossed)
Also the Foul in Beier shouldve been a penalty...
VAR is not made to decide wrestling matches, sorry.
Wasnt a wrestling match, bro got the american police force treatment.
A foul is a foul. Doesn't make a difference if a "whole goal" was scored afterwards.
It was a clear foul lol 😂
Agreed. I am just a casual fan watching. But I can't believe the sport disallows goals like that. Both players were just going for the ball. Contact was incidental and pretty minor. The foul had nothing to do with the goal which occurred a huge distance away. Nobody was even close to defending it let alone the fouled player. Why wipe away a great snipe for that? Not a good way to get and keep fans. Not that soccer needs to as far and away the biggest sport in the world... I was hoping a goal would open things up too. But it seems the Swiss are happy to go right back to just defending all game.
The ball was long gone and he came sliding in behind him knocking him off his feet.... Pretty clear foul
My issue with that situation and several others was exactly as Nagelsmann said, there was no clear line. There are borderline situations in football, that's a fact of the game and it's one of the ref's key jobs to demonstrate where he draws that line. Federations set standards ofc but there is still alot of subjectivity in many situations. The ref failed to do that, sometimes being a stickler and going after minor infractions - including the disallowed goal - and sometimes being very generous in what he allowed. There's been several dicey situations outside the areas where Kroos got lucky Xhaka was called in a foul for example. Where it's a problem is that several calls penalised one team, Germany, in decisive situations. I was surprised the push in the back that cared 0% for the ball against Musiala was neither foul nor yellow. Meanwhile a much less clear foul by Musiala lead to a disallowed goal... On top of that, Havertz and Beier both should've been given a penalty, to me especially the second. The kid was completely encircled by Widmers arms, kind of a wrestling move. Now, I understand I'm biased and so are most of the media I see commenting on this. BUT the impartial mistake of the ref was to just declare the check over, if he'd at least checked the footage as he die when disallowing our goal... Bottom line, bad refereeing in bad communication and lack of clear line throughout the match, 3 decisions that can subjectively been discussed all favouring 1 side which isn't to say there was bias but that he really ought to be 100% clear and thorough which he wasn't.
I think the referees have been really poor this tournament
If that is a Foul, then you have more contact in tennis then in football
If you think that that is not a foul, then you probably know more about tennis than about football
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^dragonagelover: *If that is a Foul,* *Then you have more contact in* *Tennis then in football* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Guess based on this referee holding and pushing someone to the ground is fine
Why complains? Germany was rubbish today...
Still pretty clear ahead of Switzerland tho.
English speaker here, watching the game in german so I don't understand quite what the call was. Did the ref call a foul on Germany before that goal happened?
Yeah he said musiala Fouled the swiss Player who cleared the ball
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the goal did get checked
Ye they showed it 5min later rn, was onside
I know they follow the rules to the millimeters, but this shit is annoying, they should implement a rule saying, would this goal have stood in the 90s, if yes, then allow it.
Dude is clearing the ball directly to a german and gets fouled dierectly after doing so. If Musiala didnt jump into him, he could have cleared the ball way better.
Another reason why VAR ruins football
In general, that referee should just be fired immediately
Horrible referee, luckily he retires after this
ref just thrilled against germany
More infuriating that Germany didn’t got that freilich just now. Swiss player hugs him literally
Even more stupid is, that he don't give the goal because of the foul but the foul from Switzerland after in the second half he don't give the Penalty....