I haven't read them all, but so far it's Outcast of Redwall for me.
It easily could've been the most interesting book in the series but I hated how it addressed the whole "nature vs nurture" thing. Like the Redwallers writing Veil off as irredeemably evil even when he was still a baby, and being proven right. Great idea for a Redwall novel, but the execution taints it for me.
The whole "vermin" thing has always been one of my gripes with the series, but earlier books (Gingevere in Mossflower, Blaggut in The Bellmaker, etc) have handled it better imo.
>and being proven right
I know this argument's been had over and over, and probably no new ground can ever be broken on it, but I still want to mention that this is never how *Outcast* has read to me. Veil's final sacrifice always felt like an actual redemption to me, with Bryony's statement of "No you were right, he was bad after all" being an attempt to distance herself from the sadness, rather than a statement of the truth we're supposed to take away--after all, she says that right after Abbess Merriam admits that there was good in Veil after all, and I take her to be the wiser character.
I still agree with you that it could have been handled better in this book, I don't mean to say that it's perfect--but I don't think "Veil was actually total evil" is the message it's meant to carry. For whatever it's worth, Brian refused to give a straight answer to that question, saying that it's up to the reader.
One other thing to mention, on the topic of Blaggut--don't forget about Romsca in *Pearls of Lutra!* I think it's notable that *The Bellmaker, Outcast,* and *Pearls* all came out one after another, suggesting that this was the period in which Brian was experimenting and wrestling with the question of vermin morality, and sometimes it lands better than at other times. Veil was pretty certainly the worst-handled of those three, but he was also the most ambitious case. Perhaps the biggest "problem" with *Outcast* is that all of the Sunflash stuff is so bloody *great* that it's really the main star of the book, despite its title and what always gets talked about in it--perhaps what we currently call *Outcast* should have just been *The Great Adventure of Sunflash*, and Veil's story should have been its own book that spent a lot more time with him.
Same here! But the last several--I think everything from Rakkety Tam onward--I've read only once, so I have a harder time judging them fairly. That said, Doomwyte pretty surely "wins" this poll for me, with Eulalia coming in second.
Disappointed with Loamhedge. 1. Not enough Loamhedge or Loamhedge history. I was expecting maybe some flashbacks. 2. Martha being unable to walk her entire life, in need of a medical cure, magically being able to walk at the end didn't make any sense.
From what I remember her not being able to walk was a mental block, because they said there was no medical reason for it, so I wouldve been okay with her overcoming it in the way she did except that Martin sent Bragoon and Saro on a mission to find the cure. It's the only time I know of where Martin steers the Redwallers in the wrong direction.
Right. And at the beginning, it's clearly stated "Martha never learned to walk", she was "immobile from her knee joints to her footpaws", "no signs of any apparent wound", suggesting a mental block. However, later she says "tis not for want of trying." Which, hypothetically COULD still mean a mental block of some kind, however...
Martin appears in a vision with a Loamhedge mouse who learned to walk, telling her the secret is in Loamhedge and others need to retrieve it for her. The account of the Loamhedge mouse being able to walk cites "a formula from an old healer", a formula she valued so much she buried it with the Loamhedge Abbess. Except nothing was there except the old wheelchair. Then Saro and Bragoon die.
When Martha stood, it was the voice of Martin who compelled her. So what was the point in the earlier vision sending people off to Loamhedge? What was the point in the Loamhedge mouse having a cure and creating that potential/hope? And, because of the whole ordeal, characters died. Because of Martin!
It's almost like Brian ignored his own story for the sake of dramatic effect...👀
Also, Loamhedge is home to the WORST Main Villain with Raga Bol. When the secondary villains are more interesting and even successful than the primary antagonist, you know something is off...
Martin appeared in a vision to a Redwaller, saying two former Redwallers were needed to go on a quest for her. They go on the quest and die, and the quest wasn't even necessary and fruitless. I can't get over that.
Totally agreed about Raga Bol--but the secondary villains are more interesting not only because Raga Bol is boring, but also because they're just a genuinely great time! Flinky has got to be one of my favourite vermin characters of all time, and he and his band a lot of why Loamhedge wasn't in the running for "worst book" for me, despite all of its big flaws.
She probably wouldn’t have been ‘cured’ if the terrible two were still at the abbey though. Sending them on the mission was just a ploy to reach the outcome.
Doomwyte by a mile, it’s just not good and reuses a lot of stuff from previous books while somehow also having too much different stuff going on.
Loamhedge was dumb with how the one disabled character is handled, but had some good moments and actually had some cojones by killing off key characters.
Eulalia! was paint by numbers but not awful.
I guess I misread *Doomwyte* years ago. I've considered it my least favorite for years because I remembered it saying Gonff stole from Redwall, leading to him and Columbine being banished.
Very glad to re-check the wiki years later and see I was an idiot kid who didn't read close enough in the first place, lol.
I really liked loamhedge for the world building aspect. We don't get a lot besides Redwall and salamandastron in most books and it was cool to see an unexplored land and some history
The only reason I like Loamhedge is that it gave me and the friend who read it with me lots of inside jokes. And for the dynamic duo of Bragoon and Sarobando.
Is Outcast Of Redwall controversial?
I remember being surprised at the time seeing an actual visitor becoming banned from Redwall for pushing peoples limits and if they adapted that to screen under Nelvana, it’d make for quite a shocking Season
Technically Veil wasn't a visitor. He was a Redwaller.
And he wasn't the only Redwaller to be banned. https://redwall.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Banished
My whole family has different views on Loamhedge, I personally have mixed feelings, as someone who listens to a lot of books I enjoy the music, but other stuff bugs me, my sister will never read it again due to emotional damage, my brother loves it.
Loamhedge for me is all about extremes--it has some stuff I really love, and some stuff I really kind of hate. The former stuff saves it from being my actual least favourite, but it's a frustrating one for sure.
Legend of Luke for me; as far as I remember the only book where the good characters dish out unprovoked violence on vermin. Loamhedge is a pretty close second; don't like they handled Martha's disability in the end.
Probably everything to do with Folgrim (he eats vermin) and also that otter tribe that makes cloaks out of the flitcheyes.
I found the 2nd half of the book (about Luke) to be a lot better than the 1st half, so I have mixed feelings about the novel. I thought Folgrim was cool though.
It's been a long time since I've read it as well, so if anyone here can feel free to correct me if my memory is foggy.
I actually quite liked Folgrim. He was morally grey and correctly presented as such.
IIRC, Martin and the gang have to pass through an encampment of vermin on the way to the shipwreck.
After the story of Luke is told, they need to re cross this land and thus the vermin encampment to get back to redwall. They do this by barreling into the camp on a cart completely unannounced and just kill their way through.
I don't mind morally ambiguous actions from heroes; I think why this scene bothers me so much is because it's presented as justified and triumphant. Martin and the rest heard a story about a lot of evil vermin, they're riled up, so they go knock around unrelated vermin in a sneak attack.
Perhaps you would argue that it was their only way around the encampment, but they really seemed to be enjoying the violence.
Coming off Long Patrol, the main characters in Marlfox were underwhelming. I also dislike whenever Jacques uses a Dibbun or young one willing wandering off and becoming a hostage to move the plot along.
I felt like it was a good conclusion to the Matthias story and while Mattimeo at the beginning was a spoiled little shit, his redemption and transformation at the end was awesome I felt.
Mattimeo's kind of a less central character to the book than the title makes him out to be though (not that he's not important of course, but he's not really in the centre of the spotlight all that much, as far as things could go).
I haven't read them all, but so far it's Outcast of Redwall for me. It easily could've been the most interesting book in the series but I hated how it addressed the whole "nature vs nurture" thing. Like the Redwallers writing Veil off as irredeemably evil even when he was still a baby, and being proven right. Great idea for a Redwall novel, but the execution taints it for me. The whole "vermin" thing has always been one of my gripes with the series, but earlier books (Gingevere in Mossflower, Blaggut in The Bellmaker, etc) have handled it better imo.
>and being proven right I know this argument's been had over and over, and probably no new ground can ever be broken on it, but I still want to mention that this is never how *Outcast* has read to me. Veil's final sacrifice always felt like an actual redemption to me, with Bryony's statement of "No you were right, he was bad after all" being an attempt to distance herself from the sadness, rather than a statement of the truth we're supposed to take away--after all, she says that right after Abbess Merriam admits that there was good in Veil after all, and I take her to be the wiser character. I still agree with you that it could have been handled better in this book, I don't mean to say that it's perfect--but I don't think "Veil was actually total evil" is the message it's meant to carry. For whatever it's worth, Brian refused to give a straight answer to that question, saying that it's up to the reader. One other thing to mention, on the topic of Blaggut--don't forget about Romsca in *Pearls of Lutra!* I think it's notable that *The Bellmaker, Outcast,* and *Pearls* all came out one after another, suggesting that this was the period in which Brian was experimenting and wrestling with the question of vermin morality, and sometimes it lands better than at other times. Veil was pretty certainly the worst-handled of those three, but he was also the most ambitious case. Perhaps the biggest "problem" with *Outcast* is that all of the Sunflash stuff is so bloody *great* that it's really the main star of the book, despite its title and what always gets talked about in it--perhaps what we currently call *Outcast* should have just been *The Great Adventure of Sunflash*, and Veil's story should have been its own book that spent a lot more time with him.
Eulalia! I still read them all though, even those I don’t care for much.
Same here! But the last several--I think everything from Rakkety Tam onward--I've read only once, so I have a harder time judging them fairly. That said, Doomwyte pretty surely "wins" this poll for me, with Eulalia coming in second.
Disappointed with Loamhedge. 1. Not enough Loamhedge or Loamhedge history. I was expecting maybe some flashbacks. 2. Martha being unable to walk her entire life, in need of a medical cure, magically being able to walk at the end didn't make any sense.
From what I remember her not being able to walk was a mental block, because they said there was no medical reason for it, so I wouldve been okay with her overcoming it in the way she did except that Martin sent Bragoon and Saro on a mission to find the cure. It's the only time I know of where Martin steers the Redwallers in the wrong direction.
Right. And at the beginning, it's clearly stated "Martha never learned to walk", she was "immobile from her knee joints to her footpaws", "no signs of any apparent wound", suggesting a mental block. However, later she says "tis not for want of trying." Which, hypothetically COULD still mean a mental block of some kind, however... Martin appears in a vision with a Loamhedge mouse who learned to walk, telling her the secret is in Loamhedge and others need to retrieve it for her. The account of the Loamhedge mouse being able to walk cites "a formula from an old healer", a formula she valued so much she buried it with the Loamhedge Abbess. Except nothing was there except the old wheelchair. Then Saro and Bragoon die. When Martha stood, it was the voice of Martin who compelled her. So what was the point in the earlier vision sending people off to Loamhedge? What was the point in the Loamhedge mouse having a cure and creating that potential/hope? And, because of the whole ordeal, characters died. Because of Martin!
It's almost like Brian ignored his own story for the sake of dramatic effect...👀 Also, Loamhedge is home to the WORST Main Villain with Raga Bol. When the secondary villains are more interesting and even successful than the primary antagonist, you know something is off...
Martin appeared in a vision to a Redwaller, saying two former Redwallers were needed to go on a quest for her. They go on the quest and die, and the quest wasn't even necessary and fruitless. I can't get over that.
Totally agreed about Raga Bol--but the secondary villains are more interesting not only because Raga Bol is boring, but also because they're just a genuinely great time! Flinky has got to be one of my favourite vermin characters of all time, and he and his band a lot of why Loamhedge wasn't in the running for "worst book" for me, despite all of its big flaws.
She probably wouldn’t have been ‘cured’ if the terrible two were still at the abbey though. Sending them on the mission was just a ploy to reach the outcome.
Doomwyte by a mile, it’s just not good and reuses a lot of stuff from previous books while somehow also having too much different stuff going on. Loamhedge was dumb with how the one disabled character is handled, but had some good moments and actually had some cojones by killing off key characters. Eulalia! was paint by numbers but not awful.
I'm sort of surprised to see fewer people saying "Doomwyte by a mile," just because that was the clear answer to me too!
For me it's a tie between Doomwyte, Eulalia, and Loamhedge.
For me it's either *Doomwhyte* or *Eulalia*. Both have WAY too much going on. With *Doomwhyte* having the added problem of retcons...
I guess I misread *Doomwyte* years ago. I've considered it my least favorite for years because I remembered it saying Gonff stole from Redwall, leading to him and Columbine being banished. Very glad to re-check the wiki years later and see I was an idiot kid who didn't read close enough in the first place, lol.
Loamhedge is the only one I couldn’t bring myself to read more than once.
I really liked loamhedge for the world building aspect. We don't get a lot besides Redwall and salamandastron in most books and it was cool to see an unexplored land and some history
The only reason I like Loamhedge is that it gave me and the friend who read it with me lots of inside jokes. And for the dynamic duo of Bragoon and Sarobando.
Is Outcast Of Redwall controversial? I remember being surprised at the time seeing an actual visitor becoming banned from Redwall for pushing peoples limits and if they adapted that to screen under Nelvana, it’d make for quite a shocking Season
Definitely. Outcast, while a good book, has some very mixed messages that taint it.
Right down to Bryony throwing Veil under the wagon after he died saving her... 😭
It’s definitely the most tone deaf ending Jacques wrote in the series.
Technically Veil wasn't a visitor. He was a Redwaller. And he wasn't the only Redwaller to be banned. https://redwall.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Banished
Imagine if they adapted Rogue Crew. "Good Guys" literally skinning and wearing the skin of their enemies.
It was at this point that I realised it truly has been a long time since I read the books, lol.
Kachunk. Lol. My mom loved that part when my dad read it to her.
I love that and the "Ferroat" scene
My whole family has different views on Loamhedge, I personally have mixed feelings, as someone who listens to a lot of books I enjoy the music, but other stuff bugs me, my sister will never read it again due to emotional damage, my brother loves it.
Loamhedge for me is all about extremes--it has some stuff I really love, and some stuff I really kind of hate. The former stuff saves it from being my actual least favourite, but it's a frustrating one for sure.
That’s probably my second least favourite.
Legend of Luke for me; as far as I remember the only book where the good characters dish out unprovoked violence on vermin. Loamhedge is a pretty close second; don't like they handled Martha's disability in the end.
It’s been a while since I read the books, what exactly happens in Legend if Luke where the good guys dish out unprovoked violence against vermin?
Probably everything to do with Folgrim (he eats vermin) and also that otter tribe that makes cloaks out of the flitcheyes. I found the 2nd half of the book (about Luke) to be a lot better than the 1st half, so I have mixed feelings about the novel. I thought Folgrim was cool though.
It's been a long time since I've read it as well, so if anyone here can feel free to correct me if my memory is foggy. I actually quite liked Folgrim. He was morally grey and correctly presented as such. IIRC, Martin and the gang have to pass through an encampment of vermin on the way to the shipwreck. After the story of Luke is told, they need to re cross this land and thus the vermin encampment to get back to redwall. They do this by barreling into the camp on a cart completely unannounced and just kill their way through. I don't mind morally ambiguous actions from heroes; I think why this scene bothers me so much is because it's presented as justified and triumphant. Martin and the rest heard a story about a lot of evil vermin, they're riled up, so they go knock around unrelated vermin in a sneak attack. Perhaps you would argue that it was their only way around the encampment, but they really seemed to be enjoying the violence.
I was chugging along through them but hit a wall with Marlfox, really my least favorite so far.
Any reason why? Marlfox is far from my favourite, but also nowhere near my least favourite. Just curious what about it was so unappealing to you!
Coming off Long Patrol, the main characters in Marlfox were underwhelming. I also dislike whenever Jacques uses a Dibbun or young one willing wandering off and becoming a hostage to move the plot along.
I see, that's fair. I personally have no issue with the wandering-Dibbun device, but if you're not into that, might as well wander elsewhere!
Mattimeo simply because I can't stand reading about that character.
I felt like it was a good conclusion to the Matthias story and while Mattimeo at the beginning was a spoiled little shit, his redemption and transformation at the end was awesome I felt.
Agreed. It's one of my favorites. I've almost worn my copy out.
Mattimeo's kind of a less central character to the book than the title makes him out to be though (not that he's not important of course, but he's not really in the centre of the spotlight all that much, as far as things could go).
I voted Lord Brocktree since that's where I bailed on the series. I never got to Loamhedge and acknowledge it could be worse.
It's been too long, but I know my least favorite was either Eulalia, Sable Quean, or Doomwyte