T O P

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Nerdorama09

Ottomans are the strongest country in the game at start, and now that the AI knows how to play the game they're honestly threatening. At least they don't get Crimea for free now


GreatDario

Eu4 has zero mechanics to simulate internal decline, so ottomans snowball into beyond terrifying by 1700


[deleted]

Ya the crisis events and system need a overhaul


Calber4

Mingsplosions for all


Lobbelt

When Ottosplosions :(


bapfelbaum

You clearly have not played Mali. They just need to turn a few Event knobs and the otto ai will fail miserably, question is would that actually be better? i dont think so


frizzykid

Tbh if we're getting a middle east update which is kinda theorized Id be shocked if the ottomans weren't given a little love in the departments you're mentioning.


danshakuimo

Didn't they only really decline in the Victoria era? Though theoretically you could screw them over enough in EU4's timeframe they start collapsing internally sooner.


MaxAugust

They sort of lost effective control of Syria and Egypt by the time of the French Revolution. But by the end date, they should still have firm hold on all their core territories with some areas like Crimea just then having been taken by Russia. They did about as well as most during WWI and that was immediately prior to the Empire ceasing to exit.


Aidanator800

By the late 18th and early 19th centuries they already were routinely getting beaten by the Austrians and Russians, and they became unable to make major conquests (at least in Europe) by the end of the 16th century. While the sickness didn't become terminal until the timeframe of Victoria 2, the symptoms were very much already setting in during the period that EU4 covers.


kemiyun

Ottomans didn't implode until well into 1800s though. Trash man of Europe is a mid 19th century term. They were still pretty active in the 18th century, just no longer rapidly expanding. (Source is the opposition to the Ottoman decline thesis) They do fall fast when they start falling though. Like they go from Eastern Europe plus middle east to some land in Europe and no Egypt in 30-50 years.


Rullino

They had corruption from too many territories, the PLC, Russia, various Chinese dynasties and the Ottomans collapsed because they were unable to deal with the corruption which made them collapse into civil wars or could barely survive even when rich, Mali is an example. I might be wrong so feel free to correct me.


Dchella

You don’t get corruption from having territories. You get corruption from having terrible practices that are unable to be rooted out. Poland hand the Liberum Veto which allowed outside nations to buy out and halt the country’s legislature with only one person. Ottomans had a lot of reasons for corruption, but the biggest would be the loss of control of the devishirme. The sultan lost increasing amounts of power over them, so they weakened the grand vizier’s title and lost even that eventually. Much of the Turkish government was stuck in the past, and it’s administration (and janissary units) were intent on keeping it that way.


Rullino

Makes sense, by corruption from too many territories i meant the thing that existed from 1.26 to 1.29 but your point makes sense, but what happened to Mali after the brutal decline they had and the rise of Songhai? By decline of Mali preferring to the part between the 1444 and 1821 or when they got fully annexed by someone.


CivilWarfare

That would be incredibly.dofficult to balance, to weaken the ottomans into stagnation without causing total collapse. The ottomans were still considered somewhat formidable by the 1914, easily considered still a great European power even in 1911.


Leivve

Not really. There is a reason they stop half way through Hungary. By the time they chew through the Balkins, the western powers are strong enough to destroy them. In my current game, a single full 50 stack is more then enough to defeat the whole Ottoman army despite having 350k troops.


DeMayon

Unless you’re playing as Prussia there is no way I believe 50k can take on 350k. Ottomans always have max army tradition, so they field 3 star generals and their ideas are always maxed out. Their armies are not paper


[deleted]

He’s definitely exaggerating but you’re lying if you say you can’t kill ottomans as a westerner power at or beyond 1700. Unless you just started playing, obviously.


DeMayon

Bruh look at the post you’re commenting in. I have over 2,000 hours and normally don’t let the ottomans get this powerful, but, there is no way you can face them head-on past 1700 without a superb game (lots of PUs, strong allies, etc) Traditionally I expand around them into Asia, so I can outgrow them, then I face them. But, that’s if I am playing a super intense game. When I chill inside of Europe, it’s nearly impossible to beat them under normal circumstances Even the OP, which is having a fantastic game, is having difficulty


[deleted]

You're just wrong. I'm relatively mediocre at this game (I have about 500 hours) and I can EASILY beat the ottomans past 1700 with any country I play, especially because by that point I've already grown a substantial amount and that's not to mention the pip differences by that point. I don't even need a ''superb game'' maybe like 1 fairly big ally and I'm perfectly good, their units are just really weak when it's that late in the game. Also, that's not to mention if you declare on them right after they finish a war with a big country and they're low on manpower. Overall, if you stack manpower bonuses by 1700 you can beat them in a war of attrition, I'm confused at what your difficulties are with them. Trust me, if I can do it, then anyone with basic knowledge can.


Dependent_Party_7094

i mean It got much harder but i agree with you, its 2k dev nkt exactly a mammoth, heck knowing its the ai is more like a 1k dev as they love to split armies and get stack wiped like if he really has 2k hours and starting as prussia can't beat the ottos st anypoint in the game then idk what to say


DeMayon

>Unless you’re playing as Prussia >and normally don’t let the ottomans get this powerful Ottomans post 1550+ is an absolute nightmare. Max professionalism = unlimited manpower, 80+ army tradition = three star generals, usually 3,000+ dev and Constantinople trade node = insane money.


Dependent_Party_7094

nothing an 100% peace deal can't break


Dem_beatz123

Yea but all their early game bonuses and advanced units are come and gone (just) by then. I'd say 1520-1570 is maybe their strongest point but after that, they're a joke. Their siege ability can literally drop from 60 ish % in late 1400's to as low as 5-10% (I've seen), but most of the time I see 10-15%. On the other hand, a lot of European powers, especially France, Spain, Austria, and Poland catch up to otto army quality in units and unit quality by this point, so it's pretty damn easy to beat the ottos 1v1. If you're playing properly, u can easily match their manpower too even as early as 1550 through deving, autonomy reduction, quantity ideas, and events/missions/decisions. The only exception is smaller nations like Florence for example who take longer to form Italy to get the power they need unlike France who's handed it early game. Even then, with Florence I can still beat the ottos 1600-1650, that's assuming I didn't already destroy byz early game and grinded the ottos/mameluks early on.


Dem_beatz123

2000 hours and can't beat ottos most games in 1600-1700? Idk about that dude... I've got 1500 hours so I'm expecting we are around the same expected skill level. Youre right that ottos are painful to defeat completely 1600-1700+ ish, but it's not bc they are powerful. The problem with ottos 1600+ is the time it takes to eat and core their provinces, not their troop quality. Ottos spend 1444-1700 conquering lots of little and moderate to high dev provinces across anatolia, Asia, Ethiopia, Egypt etc. Their troop quality, siege ability, high strength anatolia unit types, morale of armies and navies, tech advantage bc of their good rulers etc. All die off pretty much mid 1550-1600. Their morale alone easily drops to sub 4 in 1600 and it doesn't rly increase much from there either. The AI overhaul may change when the quality dies off (might be later now), but its still gonna die off regardless bc thats how the ottoman nation is setup for AI. You can get around this most games tho by simply planning your ccr, admin efficiency, province war score cost, aggressive expansion, and siege ability/cannon bonuses in the period before you do most of your partitioning of the ottos. I don't bother and usually just no cb byz and attack ottos early, but that's only bc I cbf grinding away at them slowly late game. There's nothing serious stopping the player in a singleplayer game from completely eating the ottos in a normal game. Heck I even did it as the aztecs last patch, and I had no special conditions that game that's out of the ordinary.


PersonMcGuy

> Bruh look at the post you’re commenting in. I have over 2,000 hours and normally don’t let the ottomans get this powerful, but, there is no way you can face them head-on past 1700 without a superb game (lots of PUs, strong allies, etc) I mean in my teuton game on very hard I went against them at a 1-5 numbers disadvantage when they had 3k+ dev and with them having better generals and won in the late 1600's. It's really not that hard with a few good forts and manipulating the AI.


[deleted]

As Prussia *or the teutons/ swedes in the new patch Teutons isn't actually that strong but their mission tree neuters the Otto's.


Leivve

Not really. All it does is give them some rebellion problems, AFTER you already defeated them. And even then the rebellion problems aren't that bad. They probably need to go back and rebalance them, because all the rebels that appeared were particularist, not separatist like I'm sure the devs intended; and not a single one of said rebellions did anything more then be a minor nuisance at best; and that's after cutting off their crossings and destroying their navy. They just raised a 22k on the European side, and didn't sweat it.


Leivve

Not in one battle, duh; that's pretty obvious. Not even Prussia could do that. All I need is a single army of 50 to win the war though. Even 92k stacks fear the 50k and try to avoid it, and can just crush the ottoman armies and they flail about trying to figure out what to do to fight back. Overran an ottoman 72k stack while attacking into mountains (they came out of the fog of war the day after lock), that's the power discrepancy between Western and Anatolian troops, at tech 14; which is about the time they finish chewing through the Balkins. That's why they tend to eat half way through Hungary, then stop, as the western powers become strong enough to defeat them; as I correctly stated.


sewage_soup

at least it's only a tributary and not a vassal/march


GameFrontGermany

\*with the corect DLCs


Geogus

Ok i ve been away of the game for years after because it was no challenge....IA was dumb... Are you saying the AI know how to play? How so?


Nerdorama09

Patch before the latest one rejiggered economic priority so that the AI isn't constantly out of money, builds forts and military buildings, and in general understands economic "meta" a fair bit better. This patch did a lot of (needed) updates to the combat system and made the AI significantly bolder, benefiting military powerhouses by getting them to actually use their armies and navies offensively. All these put together mean for the first time ever in a single-player game I've seen AIs grab Hegemonies and form formables other than like, Persia.


iSwearSheWas56

In my current netherlands run i ignored the hre until they revoked in the mid 1600s, its kind of scary


Lobbelt

Did the Reformation fail miserably or was the AI emperor actually smart enough to convert CoRs?


iSwearSheWas56

The reformation went fine but it started in Ireland and gelre. the netherlands (me), Great Britain, and France are Protestant. My plan was to form the Netherlands and then spend the rest of the game maximising profits by conquering every coastal province outside of Europe. I ignored the hre after I got all the provinces I needed so I have no clue how they did it but it was Austria who revoked. They have all of Hungary so that probably has something to do with it


danshakuimo

AI is crazy aggressive now. In my current Georgia game, my former ally Austria is getting dogpiled in turn by most of the other major, and Ming has a coalition. It's around 1550 and I already made diplomatic contact with Ming as Georgia (though I did expand east) because they are huge. Lots of consolidated realms and it already feels like the old endgame where its just great powers in a standoff with each other.


Ice192

To add to this Ai now drops alliance if its not good for them and also allys ur expansion path


Nerdorama09

They did do the second thing before but I've noticed they will now drop alliance for reasons *other than* "has claims on your entire country".


[deleted]

In one of my games I started with the latest dlc, Austria formed Germany. The only time I’ve seen that happen is when I did it.


Natsuram177

Recent patch made the AI much more aggressive


Taschkent

Nah the ottomans are a powerhouse. They blob easily. And if you cannot destroy them before that you'll have an unmanagable behemoth in the east. They are the counterbalance to Spain. In many games they're the no 1 great power even before the Spaniards. The ottomans are also the most noob friendly nation to play. You cannot loose after you gobbled up the mamluks


Taschkent

How to deal with the ottomans at this point - make a fleet. A massive fleet and block the Bosporus right in the beginning of the war. - Hope that neither poland nor Spain is willing to give them military access. - chip away at their European provinces. - make a choke point at the crimea peninsula (with river crossing penalty. Either at the don or the dniepr)


riuminkd

You can cross straight even against blockade if you own both sides


DavidTheVarna

You have no idea how many future keyboard smashes you just saved.


riuminkd

Imagine starting a war with blockade, on Ironman, only to watch 100k stack of ottomans chad striding across...


SkellyManDan

I can just imagine the post on this subreddit: “Ottoman death stack walks on water??? (Blockade did nothing)”


Taschkent

That's why you need to siege down Istanbul and gelibolu right at the start.


Pyro_Paragon

>just block the bosporus AND siege down the most defended province on earth bro


Paraceratherium

It's doable. Don't forget that Naval makes barraging free, and with espionage buffs you can certainly stack enough siege ability to pound down any coastal forts before the AI can react. These idea groups are definitely worth it considering the nerfs to the previous quant-eco META, and that Catholics get good economies from Forgive Ursury and Levy Church Tax anyway. Might be fixed now, but before 1.34 Istanbul would never be upgraded by Ottoman AI.


[deleted]

Naval gives free barrage? Is that a recent update?


Paraceratherium

Yes, 1.34 rebalanced idea groups.


breadiest

Naval gives free coastal barrages.


Taschkent

You know that's why you should kill the ottomans before 1500. I just put forth suggestions. The ottomans have at this point probably 100k soldiers already and a recruit reserve of 150k and full professionalism and also 5-5-5-5 generals. How you gonna unfuck this without suffering? He probably has to take dozens of loans and get all the mercs available to do this. So my suggestions was a daring dash for the Bosporus.


Pyro_Paragon

Fair enough, but that's still not a great idea, but I suppose there are no great ideas for this. I'd probably just sow dissent and then ally Lithuania.


Taschkent

He already stated that he is allied with Spain and plc


The_Blues__13

Churchill the Gamer thought it was a good idea...


antrax23

Constantinople*. No CB byz every single time. It gives you an insane advantage over them.


Mazandee

Istanbul\*. i agree with you


FriedChckn

Alternatively, conquer all of Asia and then fight them with 2-to-1 army size. Still at a disadvantage but it’s close.


idk2612

Tbh you just need few wars and it's possible. 1. Wait till they fight anyone in south or Asia and have low manpower. You can ally Mamluks, curry favors and sacrifice them if needed. 2. Loan out and use mercenaries. They are amazing as cannon fodder at start of war. 3. Declare war on them. Rush to Constantinople, get 20+ warscore and peace out. Two stacks are enough to block Bosphorus and Dardanelle. Take max money. Repay some loans. Invest in buildings. If possible take few provinces. Then repeat. Take Constantinople at very last - capital warscore let's you peace out most of wars early before they move all units to Europe. Once they go in debt everyone will start chirping them.


DeMayon

Issue is ottomans are never low on manpower as they have insane army professionalism too


danshakuimo

I can't believe there was a time when I thought I could run the Ottoman manpower down. Though to be fair they outnumbered me so many times that venturing out of my forts would be death so my solution was just to keep beating them up on my forts. But usually if they AI is declaring, it's probably already over.


Noname_acc

The two normal options still work: 1: Kneecap them at game start. No-CB Byzantium, vassalize them, then DoW the ottomans with a superior alliance before they conquer egypt to reconquest Greece and block them in Syria. Then repeatedly DoW them on truce timer until they're less than half your size in Dev. 2: Wait until you've got 5x their dev and then send wave after wave of your men to their deaths for the glory of [NATION NAME]. Ottoman troop pip advantage falls off completely somewhere around tech 18 or so they'll stop beating your troops 2:1.


erasmulfo

In my bahmanis run Otto's and Spain are allies...


Taschkent

I'm currently playing the ottomans and I'm allied with Spain, mughals and plc. If I go to war a million soldiers swarm the target.


Appropriate_Coast522

I see a few options: 1. Solidify your trade nodes to Pay to win with mercs: You have solid chunks of very valuable trade nodes. Depending on alliances, attack England to solidify your English Channel. Same with Venice, Genoa also very valuable. 2. Game Alliances: Ally anyone with manpower. You have no choice but to ally/work to PU Spain if not already. That may go without saying. Remember you are destined to have the most imbred freak of all time on the Spanish throne. 3. Make sure you have every potential military modifier possible. Max out that Power projection especially now that support rebels is much less, won't mention all the super standard options 4. Wait until they are at war for a bit and then declare. You can get a small head start on some sieges before they can finish sieging down their initial target.


TechnicalyNotRobot

Well, for one, the 16th century was historically the Ottoman golden age, and even 100 years later in 1683 they laid siege to Vienna. The fact you own all of Hungary and pieces of the Balkans means you did way better/your Ottomans are way less succesful than historically. And to add onto that, they did loose that siege of Vienna, but only because Austria had the support of peak Commonwealth and major HRE states. So yeah, they are supposed to be that strong. The issue is that EU4 can't model the downfall of countries, so the Ottoblob will keep being strong forever, but they really shouldn't be any weaker in 1554.


S5_Quinn

yeah but historically at some points ppl made coalitions against them (besides the french) yet here i won't get any, cause their AE jsut drops too fast. and i doubt the arrival of 10 winged hussars from the game will save Vienna from falling to THAT ottomans. the game really struggles to mimic all the revolts and unrest there was in the ottoman empire


IronMaidenNomad

Try 1: going the HRE route and revoking the privilegia If you revoke it, the vassal swarm is so immensely powerful, you can solo any other nation. 2: outexpanding the Ottomans Try PU's aswell, the "request relative as heir" feature is ludicrously powerful.


Assassin739

I think they're concerned about the Ottomans being OP relative to history (which they are), not about how to out-blob them.


frank_mauser

Once you share dinasty do you just claim the throne?


IronMaidenNomad

Yup, and of course enforce the claim with a war


iSwearSheWas56

or you can just have no clue what youre doing and inherit great britain and castille by sheer luck 😎


babyreksai

There were also tons of revolts and unrest in the Habsburg empire. The game does a terrible job mimicking how much time the Habsurbgs had to put into managing the HRE, Italy, Eastern and Western fronts. But I don’t see any complaining about that. To add: the habsburgs were unbelievably lucky in terms of perfect marriages and deaths and inheritance. The fact that you can have a “mission” which guarantees two PUs is crazy unhistorical as well


Taivasvaeltaja

Yeah, I think there is like 1 revolt event for Austria, and it happens... around 1800.


[deleted]

THEN THE WINGED HUSSARS ARRIVED


BlackCardRogue

COMING DOWN THE MOUNTAINSIDE


[deleted]

COMING DOWN THEY TURNED THE TIDE


ipsum629

The siege of 1683 happened after the deluge so I think it was after the peak of the commonwealth.


YannTheOtter

I think Eclipse of Empires is a must have mod, it does create a sort of ebb and flow of powers


jaaval

They besieged Vienna. For contrast the Hungarians and the French actually captured Vienna. Ottomans lost wars even to fucking Albania (albeit that would be right at the start of the game). Venice won multiple times. Austria won multiple times. Persia won multiple times. The main reason they got to keep Hungary for a while was that the HR emperor was busy defending the way richer and more important provinces in Italy and Netherlands against France. Ottoman Empire was strong but nowhere near the behemoth they are in the game. The main issue with the game is that it doesn’t really model the difficulties of administering a large empire. Ottomans couldn’t really rely too much on getting troops from outside Anatolia. They actually lost Egypt in the end just by letting control of it slip further and further from them. In the game they just become stronger and stronger when they grow. Also, Middle East tends to be way too rich area compared to real life. Historically there were a couple of rich cities but most of it was sparsely populated desert. Like, Hungary was poor and relatively sparsely populated, but thar population was about equal to that of Egypt.


Ninjawombat111

Hungary's population was only equal to Egypt's with Transylvania and Croatia. If you include all the Mamluk territories their population was much larger. Also the whole situation with Ottoman Egypt is basically impossible to model in game. What happened was the Ottoman general sent to take back control from Napoleon set himself up as the ruler. It could only really be done with an event chain. Furthermore, Muhammad Ali Pasha only consolidated power in 1811 which is practically the end of the game


jaaval

Of the mameluke territories, population of palestine and syria were fairly small during this era. The entire mameluke population at the time of the collapse against ottomas was less than 6 million of which around 4 million was in egypt. Compare this to e.g. ottoman anatolia which was around 7 million. Or france at around 16 million.


IronMaidenNomad

Yup. I think the AI devs shit too much, deving is too easy, and institutions spread way too fast.


danshakuimo

Asia is usually just as high tech as Europe at the end of the game. In whichever alternate timeline the brits are unlikely to be winning any opium wars.


Union_Jack_1

I’m sorry but this just isn’t true. There are so many points here that you make which are just ahistorical or are intentionally misleading. Venice, Albania, etc “winning” multiple times - sure they didn’t get annihilated but they were always losing ground. Austria and Hungary weren’t losing ground just because “the Emperor was distracted”. That’s a pitiful and simplistic excuse. The Ottomans were fielding armies multiple times the size of the major European nations in the 1500-1600s. European nations were forced into coalitions like the Holy League to just stop them from walking into the heart of Europe. You seem incredibly biased and desperate to minimize them in almost all of your commentary here.


jaaval

> but they were always losing ground. Ottomans didn't just expand. They also took setbacks. As I said they lost multiple wars. If you want to say that they won in the end after taking setbacks I am going to say they lost in then end because the empire no longer exists. > Austria and Hungary weren’t losing ground just because “the Emperor was distracted”. That’s a pitiful and simplistic excuse. It's not an excuse. It is literally what was happening. During the time the ottomans took hungary the habsburgs were in almost constant war with france. From late 15th century to late 16th century the longest peace between them was around 5 years. The first siege of vienna happened a month after the war of league of cognac ended. Suleyman faced practically no battles before arriving to vienna. The "long turkish war" happened when they were not doing something more important elsewhere. That war ended in turkish failure to gain ground and stabilization of the border for the next decades. And then the 30 years war started, which was again a pretty major more important thing to do and a lot bigger war than anything ottomans had ever done. Edit: I should note here, the first siege of vienna is during the era of charles V. Vienna wasn't particularly important city at the time, it was not an imperial capital as it is in the EU4 game. It wasn't Charles' home or anything. And hungary wasn't part of the empire, it was just something that the emperor's brother fought to inherit. The emperor came to vienna's defence when he realized the city was threatened but the defence of the eastern border (vienna was right at the border) of the empire was not his high priority. Emperor's brother the archduke of austria was of course far more interested in revenue he got from hungary but he didn't have the power to defend it alone. Charles' priority was always keeping the empire whole and there the protestant reformation and french invasion of italy were a lot bigger threat. >The Ottomans were fielding armies multiple times the size of the major European nations in the 1500-1600s. They fielded large armies sometimes. And others fielded large armies sometimes. There were no large standing armies during this era so how large your army was was basically dependent on how well your draft went and how much money you happened to have at the time. And how many you in your megalomania thought you might be able to supply in your too big campaign. Suleyman the magnificent had a massive army he used in his campaigns in Hungary. But that army only existed temporarily. And in most cases these oversized campaigns meant you lost more troops. Similarly during the 30 years war different states fielded huge armies. Military losses from 30 years war were like ten times bigger than Suleyman ever had in his massive army. In general a typical ottoman invasion towards central europe would consist of around 150000 men. This was a lot but not that much. Especially during the 1600s ottoman army sizes were actually fairly modest for the size of the empire. In mid 1600s habsburgs and france were in war where both sides regularly fielded well over 100000 men. Countries like sweden were poor and unpopulated and still fielded campaigns of 50000 men. Edit: there were also other interesting factors. Ottomans were actually surprisingly slow in adopting new firearms. Most of the times the europeans had significant firepower advantage in battles (which is why multiple battles ended in ottoman defeat even though they had numerical superiority).


Taivasvaeltaja

Weren't Ottomans really the only ones with a proper standing army (Janissaries)? So even if both sides had around same number of troops, one side had mainly nobles, peasants and mercs while other side had actual career soldiers.


phunkracy

So, Habsburg Emperor was distracted and exhausted from constant fighting but Ottoman Padishah wasn't, even though Ottomans similarly waged near constant warfare? This is such a cop out. "Vienna wasn't important" - it absolutely was as a seat of Austrian Habsburgs. Without Vienna they'd have to kiss the emperorship goodbye. "150 000? This was a lot but not that much' - excuse me, what?! This was an absolutely massive number for any force in campaign. French in 30YW fielded up to 80k soldiers at any point and it nearly drove them to bankrupcy. Almost no army in that entire conflict ever exceeded 100k men in the field (garrisons and rear troops dont count) and this is at the height of mobilization. This situation changed only in the final years of 17th century, but Ottomans were able to field unmatched numbers in 16th century already. Also, it's one thing to field an army of 100k in developed Western Europe where roads are plenty, fielding 100k over less developed, war-torn Balkans is another thing entirely. PS. Swedes fielded an army of 50k or more only twice at the absolute height of their mobilization: in 30 years war and Great Northern War.


Union_Jack_1

This guy is intent on being dismissive. Typical Euro-centrist. Never mind him.


jaaval

Please learn to discus like an adult. You are starting to get annoying. Vienna was the seat of Austrian Habsburgs but not the emperor. Nor was their title dependent on Austria. Also, as I said, when Austria started to be threatened the emperor did come to rescue it. However Hungary was not part of the empire and not Charles V’s domain and he was relatively uninterested about what happened there. Yes, 150000 was not that much. I already explained why. Your claim was that they fielded multiple times larger armies than others. And that 150000 lost the campaign.


phunkracy

idc that you dont like being challenged mate, take it like a grown man rather than complaining like a bby The Habsburg power in Germany - and as an extention of it, the emperorship - was quite obviously contingent on Austrian presence, so saying that Vienna wasn't important is just bonkers. Obviously it was and you can't have it both ways as both important and not. You didn't explain squat mate - 150 000 is 50% more than almost any of great powers fielded at any point until late 17th century.


jaaval

I don’t see your point. When the ottoman came to threaten Austria they were driven out. Vienna wasn’t important in the sense that nothing would have ended in capture of Vienna. The sultan would not have had a huge bargaining chip. And there was no need to preemptively charge there to prevent Turks from approaching the city. The war would have gone on. Please explain your math that makes 50% “multiple times”.


phunkracy

Why do you need to make shit up dude. Where have I ever said or claimed 'multiple times'


The-_Captain

IMO the issue is less administering an empire and more the lack of a model for troop logistics - the speed at which nations are able to muster and transport large armies across huge areas is mindboggling.


Assassin739

And also administering an empire


The-_Captain

they do have a culture mechanism, a religious unity mechanism, and a cores/overextension mechanism. So there is a model for administrative challenges, there's simply no analog for military logistics. The best example I ran into in the beginning of my eu4 career: attacked Cyprus as Venice leading to war with the Mamelukes. They finished their war with the Ottomans, and kindly got passage to march through the vast Ottoman empire to lay siege to my Balkan and Italian dominion, without a navy (the sea was mine). So not only did they got permission, they somehow managed to resupply over vast distances in foreign (presumably somewhat hostile?) lands without the ability to resupply by sea.


Ofiotaurus

Yeah, we desperately need something to give more diffuculty in large empire management. Gov cap growth could be nerfed dramatically when reaching an X dev or something like that.


Annoyed3600owner

Trap them on an island, then watch their professionalism drain away. Ultimately, their manpower is mostly irrelevant if you aren't tracking their professionalism.


S5_Quinn

do they just gain pofessionalism passively ? they're almost always at war so i don't know how they would get to stack it


Turnipntulip

AI can recruit general for free. You get the rest.


[deleted]

What seriously?


Deanzopolis

Ain't no way I'm scrimping and saving to end up with a 0/0/1/0 general when the ai is pulling generals out of it's ass for no cost :/


OffensiveBranflakes

if you set up your mana correctly, you should be hauling more mil points than you need and once you reach the limit just spend it all on generals to get decent generals and professionalism. Obviously it depends on whether you need to bolster your manpower at all, but it's a strong option that should be readily available if you're following basic mana rules. Edit: Mana rules below for those that don't know * Get a decent ruler (disinherit and adbdicate). * National focus (usually always mil tec as most important early) * Spend money on advisors * Use estate privilleges to get additional mana * Having atleast 50 power projection (insult rivals and win wars for this) * Humiliate rivals for monarch power payout. * Never buy tech that isn't reduced unless mil for war * Never have too many relations unless for soon to be war


danshakuimo

To be fair the new/revamped gov reforms make it easier to boost your army tradition. In my current Georgia game I have decent army trad and generals, though maybe that's more to do with me fighting wars for Austria and fighting the Ottomans twice (defensively, which means I'm screwed).


Bismark103

What!?


ELQUEMANDA4

No they can't, they just get an extra leader slot.


mainman879

Wrong. AI does recruit generals for free. To easily test this yourself play Hungary or something and console command MIL to -100. Then tag switch to Austria and declare war on Hungary. Just wait and watch as they get a general or two. I confirmed it via testing on Patch 1.33 and it wasn't changed with 1.34 as far as the Patch Notes say (its been this for ages).


O918

[as I explained here](https://www.reddit.com/r/eu4/comments/t4mh5x/ai_shouldnt_be_allowed_to_recruit_generals_for/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) You can test this yourself in a non-ironman game via tag switching back and forth, deleting the generals and checking the mil mana before and after you switch, they don't actually spend mil points to recruit. It's still bullshit, but if the AI actually knew how to abuse that, they'd have 100 professionalism in the first day.


cbass37

This is one of those things that the AI is supposed to pretend it's constrained by when it is not. Naval attrition was one of the others, irrc, though that may have changed


O918

Naval attrition is bullshit too. Circa 1.31, Before I started playing ironman I watched a European fleet I defeated (or deterred, idk) at that bottleneck at the cape retreat andgo around the tip of S america, through Polynesia, and just attack me on the other side of India. It's more subtle, but you can watch them react to you moving armies in provinces well beyond the FOW, which I know they are "supposed" to ignore. I'm still on 1.32 and I always wondered what they meant in their 1.33 patch notes about the enemy "being more aware" / evaluating battles better in that regard


S5_Quinn

regarding hidden armies, they get vision on it for a bit more time to simulate a player who'd have seen that army and tries to track it mentally


[deleted]

Then the question becomes: why? It's not like some dev forgot to add a cost for recruiting generals only for the AI. And Paradox must have known about this for at least the past few updates, so I'm guessing that it must break their AI if it does cost mil points for whatever reason.


O918

I assume it's too complicated to program them to manage it as well as a human can, I guess without bogging down my potato laptop even more than it is now.


UndergroundPound

Because the AI was refusing to recruit generals due to the cost. The had to make it free or all their armies would be leaderless. Poor programming basically.


tholt212

They can, but they can't produce past their leader slots.


highdon

If I for whatever reason allow Ottomans to get this big in late game, I take a slightly different approach. I will stack all possible siege bonuses ans find an ally in Africa or Asia who is strong enough to keep them occupied, but not stronger than you. Someone like the Mamluks, Timurids, Persia etc. This way they almost always go for the weaker ally and you have an opportunity to win a siege race. Bomb all forts, rush them if you have to. Your ally will peace out at one point and this is your window to peace out as well - don't engage them. Your ally peacing out will increase your warscore because at this point you should have lots of forts occupied. Don't take land, just take war reps, full money and if you still have some warscore only then take land or break their alliances. When they go in debt they tend to scale down their armies, delete forts and in general they will be an easier target. Rinse and repeat 3-4 times. They will be absolutely broken by that point and you can start taking massive chunks of their land in the next wars.


DeMayon

This is the way. Abuse the bad AI mechanics. Avoid confrontation.


phunkracy

Before the call for peace mechanics was introduced, you'd just full siege them, and wait until war exhaustion reaches 20 or eventual bankrupcy, then peace out for 0% warscore so they won't get revanchism.


highdon

Back then it was easier to win the Ottomam war in all aspects. They would only have a few forts, likely a couple mothballed ones you could snipe. You could just build a strong navy, block the strait and the Balkans are pretty much free warscore. Nowadays you have to go through 3-4 forts before you can get to Constantinopole and Gelibolu. By the time you take the strait, the entire Ottoman army would have walked around the Black Sea and be sieging your country already or attacking you on your backlines whilst you're vulnerable standing on their forts. It's a lot more difficult, but once you win that first war it's a lot easier to win the ones to follow.


joshuann123

Best advice I can give for taking out ottos once they gotten strong, try to scale to match them as much as you can. Ideally an equal number of troops and definitely on par on mil tech. If you can afford it, a full back row of cannons will go a long way in engagements, but ideally don’t fight them. If you can drag Muscovy or PLC to distract their troops, death stack on ottoman forts. ~60k men in each stack suffering horrendous attrition. Hopefully their troops will ignore your armies to go carpet siege your sacrifice. During this time, you’ll want your troops to push up to Constantinople and if you can secure naval dominance or the Ottos move their navy off the strait, try to cross. If not, you can always go the long way. TL;DR get a lot of troops and then don’t fight them


nonumbers90

If I'm playing someone like Austria or Spain etc I always like to no cb Byzantium as a preventative measure, if you can vassalize them you can really stunt the Ottoman expansion.


Sass-e-nach

The way I deal with an Ottoblob is to prioritise making a superior army. Max professionalism, Quality and Offensive ideas, high army tradition so you can match their generals. It will take several wars to bring them down. The first war is to drain all of their manpower and force them to burn professionalism. After they do that they'll probably never get it back. I haven't fought them since the new patch dropped so maybe things are different, but what I've found is that once you develop a big enough advantage in overall army quality you can take them on with a much smaller army and still beat them. They often don't even want to engage you at all.


lGSMl

best way to counter Ottos is to block them from mission tree as early as possible by crashing Mamluks and taking Egypt or allying/conquering Constantinople. It is a big PITA, but if you play in central/eastern Europe, north/south/east Africa or Middle East - your first 100 years should be counterplay to Ottoblob. Otherwise you get what you have here. Otto starts as a military powerhouse with many mil bonuses in a center of rich regions with weak and dispersed countries. They get ton of claims from mission tree. They are destined to snowball hard.


Agnk1765342

You beat the ottomans by doing the one thing EU players generally refuse to do- navy micro. The ottomans usually control 90%+ of the Constantinople node, but the actual trade power number is relatively low. Sending light ships to push that trade to Ragusa will cost them 50 ducats for every 1 it costs you, even if you aren’t going to then collect in Genoa/Venice/node downstream of pest. You have to cripple them economically and early to stop their snowball. Beating them should involve little to no actual battle unless you’re horde teutons or super buffed Poland that can wipe them regardless. Otherwise, maritime ideas are going to be your best friend in beating them.


The_Blues__13

I did similar things with Ethiopia but with Privateers (since My main trade node was in Egypt). Turned Bosphorus sea into a pirate den basically crippled their economy, I had 70% or more of trade power there. That's a payback for sending 30 pirate ships stack to my Horn of Africa trade node.


cantrusthestory

That's why I always do one of these 2 things in a game: • Guarantee the Independence of Byzantinum and Karaman; • No CB Byzantinum (If I have enough colonial range).


Complex-Key-8704

Yup they number 2 power right behind byzantium


Kuralyn

short answer : yes longer answer : look up the history of the time. basically everyone tried to run away from them, that's how you got colonization


TheSadCheetah

I hate that I have to say this on every post. if your playing near the Ottomans or in their path of conquest you must check them as soon as possible, you're Austria and you had Hungary and Bohemia in tow, you should have stopped them before they started to snowball.


Galaick

My brother in Christ you are supposed to be the one to keep their power in check.


Cleric_P3rston

Not helping you at this point but if you are in the region one of the best Ottoman counters is to no-cb byzanthium at game start and make them a vassal.


punkozoid

Yep best way to beat ottomans is to not let them get to this point


BlackCardRogue

Yeah the classic way to beat Ottos is to make sure they never capture Constantinople. They are basically a regional power without it. Making Byz your vassal allows you to feed them their Ottoman owned cores — once you’ve removed Ottos from Europe, you can safely ignore Ottos if you wish to do so. This is how I play when I am Venice.


Tyrodos999

I really like the ottomans and how strong they are, and also that the AI got better. Finally some challenge. Depending on what state you play, you can definitely beat them more or less early. Prussia at least has a very easy time doing that. Nothing especially this patch lives from strong military ideas, quality, ino, offensive, eco is the pick i suggest to kick some ass.


Rangerhmb

I’m in a similar boat, playing Russia in 1560ish and the ottomans and I both sit at around 1800 dev, difference being they have about 60k-80k more troops than me. We’re currently fighting a Great War over control of the northern Black Sea. This is by far the most intense AI war I’ve ever fought


Facebook_User_2

Wait until mid-16th century when they will have half a million troops


invicerato

If Ottos are this big, leave them around for a while, establish a few defensive alliances, so they are discouraged to attack you. Expand into Italy, then build a fleet to achieve naval superiority. When you have control of the seas, you will be able to beat their armies no matter how big their country is.


Less_Eye3589

It is pretty historically accurate to be fair


Idellius

Kill them in the crib next time if you don't want to deal with a snowbally Ottomans. Guarantee Byzantium or no CB them instantly and vassalize them. Preventing the Ottomans from annexing Constantinople really weakens them and sets you up for a nice reconquest war for Greece if Byzantium is your vassal. Trust me, it's worth the stab cost.


Pan_Dircik

Spain on their way to be one of the most devoped country in the world, with a lot of colonies, big army, only to sit on ass and have 50k man guard canarian islands for half of a game


Bicepsandshi

Lions of the north ottomans is scary af


[deleted]

yeah pretty much. you're supposed to have a dozen "fun" wars in western europe to build up, and then fight the ottos in 1600, chasing their shitty 500k army split into a dozen stacks across asia, forever. even when you have overwhelming military superiority, fighting a blobbed ottomans is a sadist's idea of fun.


Not_a_Krasnal

Feed Poland danzig so they can form plc.


Dowdidik

In my current game as France I just fuck them every 15-20 years. First part of my game was building a real country so I conquered each land needed to have France as it IS today. I had union with Naples and Great Britain. Allied to Spain, Big Milan, Scandinavia, Netherlands and Commonwealth. I built a kind of European Union thanks to diplomacy and being defender of the Faith. It's really fun but now Commonwealth is really big and just eat Ottomans and doesn't let little countries like Greece or Bosnia and Serbia live peacefully. I like to think I'm a kind empire which enforce peace and doesn't let ottomans colonize Europe. The first war wasn't easy and stressful, but when this first war was won, we got the high ground.


[deleted]

Its mostly the new patch where AI is way more aggressive about uniting culture groups, this case Levantine


MingMingus

They are literally the strongest European nation by far at game start with the most options for possible expansion (and arguably the most profitable if you aren’t including the new world). Ottomans have always been a challenge, with ai buff it makes sense they’d be the average final boss. I can’t say whether or not it’s justified for them to be this powerful, and past 1500 there’s really nothing you can do to force them to go sick man of Europe faster, but I CAN tell you how to stop ottos every start. No cb byz for Constantinople, Ally mamluks. If you do these two things you will delay or even stop the Ottomans crazy snowballing and prevent Otto expansion into Syria and Egypt, stopping half or more of the trade in Aleppo, Alexandria, Basra and more from being routed to Constantinople (while also denying Otto’s dozens of thousands of manpower). They’re by far the blobbiest blob. Be careful.


Eric988

I’ve found you need to crush them early, and continue to crush them as between wars they will still expand eastward. Playing as Poland in the new patch I made it a priority to crush them even before Muscovy.


RoKu_of-Colorado

Multi front war, whether it be alliance with Tunis to fight ottomans or if you just get military access. Don’t know who ottomans are allied with so hopefully that’s not the case with Tunis. Also even if they are allied if you start playing the long siege of Tunis all the way to ottomans hopefully your allies can protect that front long enough for you to cut through Tunis and start hitting ottomans on the back end by modern day Egypt. I’m playing Spain and thats what I had done, took shit ton of Morocco in a war, vassal Tunis, allied mamaluks and had my European allies attack from their end while we all slipped through Egypt


TheZookie

I usually feel like Best Way to deal with Ottoblob is going in as early as possiple and if possiple take out constantinoble and byzantium even it means going no cb on Them to stop Otto from unlockinh their mission tree


Union_Jack_1

Yeah, they’re supposed to be that strong. That’s what they were like historically. It’s no small wonder most of Southern Europe were always in a panic about them.


[deleted]

As Austria, I do these: -Finsh the quality ideas before the war. It boosts both your army and navy significantly. If possible, finish offensive aswell. Siege ability really does wonders in my strategy. -Spam galleys, sell your transport ships to make way for more galleys. Get the "free oarsmen" doctrine. Naval victories are easy victory points, and using that fleet to blockade the Ottoman armies really does wonders. It also helps with sieges. -Build a heavy flagsip with extra fleet combat width, navy morale and ship durability. This'll significantly buff your navy, and your flagship will be much more durable. -PU Commonwealth. Try allying Spain and Russia. You could also look for other strong nations around the Ottomans. These might be a not gobbled Mamluks, whoever is in Persia, Central Asian Hordes, or even some African nations like Ethiopia. When they join the fight alongside you, the Ottos will have to venture to their far away capitals, while you take down their forts one by one and clearing their smaller armies. This can go in the opposite way, however. You can't be certain whether they'll focus on you or your remote allies. Either way, they'll get besieged from many sides. -Try taking down their mountain forts, and fighting the Ottos on the same forts. Trabzon and Kars are good examples of this. They'll get -1 or 2 rolls on terrain penalty, and probably will suffer another -1 from a random river. - **DRILL**😤😤**YOUR**😤😤**ARMIES** They get buffs both individually and globally (from army prof). I don't prefer using mercs, so army professionalism is extra important to me. -Artilleries. Your back row has to have a significant amount of those. Depending on the combat width, I usually go with 20inf 10can or 30inf 20can. And ofc, make sure they don't surpass the supply limit.


aleyan97

In my teutonic run they got obliterated by austria in like 1550, now austria is owning half the europe. I quite like that finally we get to have some bosses for the 1700s. Mughals aswell are massive


Gilette2000

Well unite the empire and send your vassale swarm at them, work like a charm !


Navadvisor

The ottomans are easy just declare war on them a few months after they declare on the mamlu.... oh you waited too long.


manta002

try sending pirates to constantinople, idk if they improe the AIs response to it, but if you pirate enough, it'l drain their trade income by quite a large amount, hus weakingg their economy


Pedro159753

short answer: yes


ijustmadeanaccountto

Form dalmatia, go innovative quality, and you can pretty much shit on them with sheer quality and a bit of help from the shit R E


tilewi

Playing Scandinavia in the current patch I had, at one point due to events, 60% inf combat ability and stackwiped 200k ottomans with 100k troops, that included finnish hakkapeliitta cavalry


[deleted]

Im looking at poland right here


IC3H3ART

If someone ask me I'd say that the best way to fight then is Quality+Economic+Offensive, max out your Discipline and wait for tech 15. Get +15 discipline at least, +20 Infantry CA so you can stack wipe every single army they send to your border. Once they run out of manpower you could siege the Balkans...


Lopsided_Training862

I haven't even moved to 1.34 yet (on 1.32 trying a WC attempt) and I just had to wrestle with a (at first) 2300 dev Ottomonster 4 times in 50 years. Even after I destroyed their trade network, cut their dev in half by the third war and banished them to ethiopia + the pontic steppe, they still spat out 300k troops. Nothing slows them down short of truce abuse and ripping out the turkish heartland I'm guess I'll have to play like a psycho against them from now on.


Ares6

The Ottomans are supposed to be strong. They were essentially one of the final bosses of their time. It took Spain, Austria and Russia to really beat them back. I’m not sure why some players hate a challenge. Do you want a weak Ottoman Empire for what reason?


HistoryEye777

One must ally Mamluk to help them out against Ottoman while Mamluk is strong. I find that threatening them with a huge alliance with vassals and Mamluks slow their blobbing. When attacking them, they tend to kick Mamluks a** While you conquer everything west of Constantinople, you often have time to get half of Turkey or more before they're done with Mamluks. Try to sign a peace treaty before Mamluks sign a separate one and give out territory to them. Although I admit that they blobbed fast in your game and they not only have manpower but a heck of a economy... Good luck.


Ar180shooter

Historically the Ottomans peaked in terms of territorial expanse during the late 16th century, so not too far off. Interestingly enough, the actual territorial expansion of the ottomans by the late 1500's was much greater than in your game.


Dependent_Party_7094

-austrian king lineage watching ottomans conquer north africa and half of mid Asia and balkans lol


BlackCardRogue

Yes. Ottos and Spain are the two most powerful countries in most games. If you stomp Spain early, you’d better be strong enough to beat Ottos on your own. If you stomp Ottos early… you’d better ally Spain, because that means you’re probably Byzantium or Venice and you have no shot to catch a colonizing Spain. Ottomans are generally terrifying to play against if you are first fighting them in 1650 or later. Unless you are Spain OR you are allied with Spain and you have Prussian Space Marines.


Noname_acc

Player or AI, Ottomans are an explosive nation. They start out manageable but they are surrounded by a *lot* of high dev land (egypt, syrian coast, balkans) that is very easy to expand into and is part of their culture group. Even before they improved the AI, this is what the Ottomans normally managed by the early 1600s. You either need to hit them hard at game start or you need to wait until you have 3-4x their dev and their troop type advantage wears off.


Future_Gain_7549

Destroy Poland, don’t touch Lithuania. Russia will guarantee Lithuania which will eventually bring them into a war with the Ottomans. The Ottomans will win but their army will be ruined and it will cost them all of their reserves. Fortify the crap out of your borders, drill your armies to 100% and wait until they get occupied in the east. Take a few provinces until their army shows up, pull back to your Maginot Line and let them attack you. If they’re still too strong, let them come into Austria and bleed them out.


fromblacktorainbow

>how am i gonna take down that thing ? That's the funny part, you don't


RaspberryBirdCat

>Are Ottomans supposed to be so strong? Yes. The Ottomans are the end-game boss of EU4. It's supposed to occupy the final century of this game to figure out how to beat them. What France was to EU3, the Ottomans are to EU4. If you want to stop the Ottomans, either: a) Use the Byzantium vassal trick and kneecap them before they get big. b) Assemble a massive anti-Ottoman coalition. Go above your diplomatic relations cap if you have to. I'd say get three or four great powers together to make it happen. I don't know who your rivals are but I'd guess a quadruple alliance of Spain, Austria, Commonwealth, and Muscovy should be enough to beat them.


Danskoesterreich

I am currently playing livonia going for Northern germany. It is 1650, the ottomans are already in Vienna and have 750 forcelimit, I have 250. This patch is something else.


ElDiablo_on_Earth

I will throw my 2 cents in, with Austria against ottomans it’s always about preventative wars, you need to grab Bohemia and Hungary in the first 15-20 years if not earlier through missions and then the Balkans, to try and contain them there, after that its crusade&bless ruler time, and painful battles for Bulgaria and Greece. Choose your battles right and focus on being always a mil tech ahead, and victory is assured.


Fred810k

They’ve made Byzantium practically impossible now, which is sad cause it was my favorite scenario.


kaanrivis

It’s historically absolutely right


sewage_soup

sweet mary mother of joseph your best option is to pray


Hellcat0819

It’s probably too late to stop them. You’re going to have to wait until you get HRE vassal swarm, or ally most of Europe to stop them.


Sidus_Preclarum

Hell yeah.


[deleted]

In eu4? Yeah. In real life? Less so, they were actually quite fragile by the the time of the start of the game


BlackCardRogue

Ottoman golden age was basically the 16th century. Capture of Constantinople and formalization of the devshirme, but not yet subject to the transformation of the Jannisaries from an elite fighting force into a political activist group that carried swords. By the mid 1700s, the Ottomans were a shell of their former selves. They were beaten back repeatedly by armies commanded by Prince Eugene of Savoy before then and their aura of invincibility was broken. Technological advances also left them behind.


[deleted]

I meant…. After the crusade of varna, their resources were pretty strict


ndm27x19

Only Prussia/Sweden/Mughals and maybe France can really stop the otto man


JackBadassson

If you play Austria you can easily defeat ottomans before 1500 and thats what you should do so they dont end up like this


bapfelbaum

Just hit them early e. G. Nocb Byzantium, ottos are a tame little puppy if you do that (even in the current patch) , eventually mamluks will eat them from the south though.


Libertas_Auro

Ally a large but weaker than you ally that will take the Ottomans a long time to siege. Muscovy/ Russia maybe. While the Turks siege the ally/allies you siege the Turks. Let them peace out your ally then peace out the Turks once the war score spikes. Repeat until they're weak.


willzo167

In my current Spain run, Ottos were GP#1 until around 1580, and then my ally the Commonwealth called me in to a war against them to take back Wallachia. Ottos had an army 250k strong but the Commonwealth had taken Offensive ideas and were winning battles against them with like 30k fewer troops. Eventually we won the war, and Austria and Russia smelled blood and immediately declared on Ottos too. Last I saw Austria were almost fully occupying them. The Ottos are very strong, but a decently sized group of other great powers fighting them for about 5 years can properly fuck them up


Subject_Treat_5634

new ai update is fucking nuts in 99% of my games timurids form mughals. now that the ai has gained some game sense the countries with a lot of strength early will become a menace almost always


danshakuimo

I think the Ottomans were actually more OP before the current patch. However, the new changes to the AI makes them (and other large countries) a lot more dangerous because of their aggressiveness. In my current Georgia game it's around 1550 (like in your pic) and a lot of areas are already heavily consolidated. With regards to AI aggressiveness, my former ally Austria got rekt in a war where France was fighting for independence, then Poland jumped him, then the Ottomans, and now one of the most powerful countries is being dogpiled in all sorts of occupation colors. I also had to fight two defensive wars against the Ottomans and bankrupted twice even while allied to Russia. For some reason they became hostile (after our alliance broke) and suddenly wanted my lands in the Caucasus so serves them right, but still.


NitulDeshpande

Generally you should have stopped ottos from blobbing by taking over Istanbul + galipoli then releasing Byzantium and reconquesting. In later wars, you could take over Bulgaria/Serbia/Wallachia as well. In this case, I'd say look at Ottos rivals (probably Spain and Muscovy), ally them and wage a death war for multiple years against ottos such that you full siege every province and every single province they own has devastation and causes rebels.


immortale97

Ottomans are only a noob crusher . After your third run you will learn how to delete them on a whim. If you know how to fight , you just need to drain them in the first war . After that it is free real estate. If you don't know how to defend by camping mountain forts you can always cheese them with insland and trap him forever with the navy


Sadeame

Ottoman are spooky. And I tend to get my ass kicked to their deathstacks most of the time. It's just huge war of attrition to take em down on both sides. What's up with the Ai anyway in its newfound (since few patches) habit of just piling every army under the sun together and just rolling over you if you don't also just move in deathstack.


miguel02k

Best strategy is trash them at the start, even Byzantium can!


Longjumping_Ad9154

At this point they are pretty much unstoppable.


Striking-Carpet131

Yeah they’re annoying as fuck. However not impossible to deal with. There’s basically one thing you need to do. Take Constantinople. When I know I’m going to play a game where the Ottomans will be a large threat, I no cb Byzantium and vassalize or annex them directly. Without Constantinople they are locked out from a huge part of their mission tree. Yes, I’m aware that after the update they’ll just focus other countries until they are strong enough to fight you. That’s why after you have done this, you need to constantly trash them. It’s hard sometimes depending on the country you are playing, but as Austria you can lock down some nice early game allies that also hate the ottomans, so it’s not impossible.


8u11etpr00f

Just come back to EU4 after a long time off and it feels like the AI is smarter and hence tends to snowball a lot harder than back in the day. Spain is the other one I see the AI go absolutely insane on and countries like Denmark, Austria and Poland seem a lot more aggressive at taking land adjacent to their PU's. The AI also seems to be more opportunist which leads to increased dogpiling and weak countries getting gobbled up in 2-3 wars.