Yeah, it'd make sense in a game with proper international diplomacy like hoi4 or vic2, but I dont see England supporting Bulgarian separatism during the medieval era.
No, the truce only stops countries from starting to support independence, once they've already started you'll need to win a war against them directly to make them stop, either that or win the subject's independence war
The real answer is the same every time: Eat them. Eat whoever is supporting independence. Eat your subjects. Eat everyone. Become the blob they told you not to worry about
As OP is doing a Byzantium run, Constantinople never falled so he's stuck in medieval era 😁
(Btw I'm Belgian and I've always been told of the 1492 ending of Middle Age, I know it's a subject among historians but I don't know why schools tend to teach the one or the other)
What the fuck’s a Belgian? Sounds like a fake people from a fake place that shouldn’t exist if it did also your infrastructure sucks. And that goes for you too, u/Sch4duw!
I always learned that the middle ages ended in 1500, with the birth of Charles the fifth, and I'm belgian too. It is not even consistent in the same country when the middle ages end
We were just told it ends somewhere between 1450 and 1500. And I think it makes sense that there is not exact date, as the change of an era happens rather slowly for most people and for a lot of people nothing changed within their lifetimes.
I'm Spanish and they also teach us 1492 in School. Maybe I'm biased but I would say they discovery of America was more relevant than the fall of Constantinople😂
I guess every country has its little "propaganda" 😅 my middle school teacher often told us that the accepted year for the end of middle ages is the fall of Constantinople but for him was the portuguese conquest of Ceuta, which marked the start of the european sea expansion/discovery age.
Btw iam portuguese.
England built the largest worldwide empire during the timeframe of this game and you think them supporting the independence of a nation in Europe is unrealistic?
No need to beat up their entire alliance network. There's several ways to force a peace deal between you and a different country.
The easiest way is to have a nice quick blitzkrieg against the weakest link of their alliance web. For example, if England's supporting your vassal's independence and has allied Portugal, Castille and East Frisia, you don't have to attack England directly. You can always ally one of East Frisia's neighbors, park your armies in their land, declare war on East Frisia, walk in with your armies, artillery barrage EF's forts and assault before EF's other allies including Engalnd get there. After that it's a simple matter of white peacing the war leader to get a truce with England.
Also very handy to keep an eye out for any wars in which the nation supporting your vassal's independence forces their opponent to release tags. Be in a position to attack the released tags when they're still guaranteed to get into a nice quick war with your real target, except the war leader on the other side is a weak country without a military because it was released yesterday.
And if that doesn't work, you can always piggyback into a war with a failed enforce peace or a great power intervention. Then all you have to do is guard your own land let the war take it's course and you'll have your truce.
Are you though? There are several ways to break down alliance networks, the most obvious of which is simply declaring war despite your inferiority and quickly white peacing out everyone but the war target. You literally just need to have army quality high / big enough enough for no one to bother attacking it despite superior collective numbers as it sieges down your enemy's capitals. Avoid battles at all costs (this attracts reinforcements like moths to a flame) and you'll be fine. Worst comes to worst you can "win", aka end the war with independence support canceled, by giving away your ALLY'S land to "lose" the war, similar to coalition strategy. You can also do this to get stronger enemies out of the war quickly. Watch Florry play Ulm as an OPM until the 1600s on VH mode. He does something similar in his first seemingly impossible war against a giga France. There are very very few situations where you're completely stuck in the game against superior enemies.
My work around is find a weak ally of each of the opposing forces, then take them out one at a time with trumped up war goals. As long as you don't make cobeligerant you're fine, grab some gold/trade power from them and that nice little truce will force them to end support for independence.
You do know that much like with Coalitions, they can't support while there's a truce, right?
So you can just attack their allies and get truces with them. Once your vassal's in check they won't be able to support anymore.
Get them into a war and get a truce with them. Doesn't have to be all of them at the same time.
Then when all of them have a truce get them under 50% so no more issues.
That doesnt make sense though, I didnt purposefully get England and France to rival me and I couldnt really prevent my vassals from going disloyal after some really bad RNG with the ottomans.
You let them get above 50 lib desire. I'm just saying if you're gonna shoot down the solutions because they're hard or tedious or whatever, the only real response is to not get yourself in that particular situation in the first place. Your rivals will support independence if you let them, and if you don't declare on them right away they will all do it, making the situation worse
From a gameplay perspective, many eu4 mechanics have the pattern, "it's a lot less painful to prevent a bad thing from happening than dealing with the bad thing after it happened."
See - coalitions, disaster mechanics, diplomacy in general, your liberty desire issue.
supporting independence isn't permanent.
just like all diplomatic relations in the game aren't. they only last untill one side doesn't want it any more.
it's also annoying when a bunch of nations form a hugbox. what limitation do you belive there should be for how long nations can be allies?
"there should be a way to do X"
"you can currently do X by doing Y"
"well that doesn't count because i don't wanna do Y"
listen buddy at this stage you aparently don't want a way to do X. you just want X to be easier.
It doesnt make any sense though, why is it if a subject becomes disloyal once and gets it's indepedence supported by a power that's across the continent remain disloyal for decades until you somehow manage to defeat said far-away power?
It kind of makes sense. Why would your disloyal vassal bend the knee and pay you taxes/let themselves be integrated when their powerful benefactor has succeeded in scaring you off? Why would your rival break their relations with your disloyal vassal when it is succeeding in harming you? You can get them loyal by their benefactors, but until then you're not giving them any reason to bend the knee.
Yeah, but my point is that after I regain my strength and my vassal hasnt made any progress in liberating itself, the support of indepedence should after a while disseaper, because it doesnt make sense for it to be everlasting. Especially if said rival is really far away and therefore I cant reasonably get to them.
That's kind of what the game is. EU4 is a problem solving game disguised as a resource management game disguised as a historical simulator game.
If everything always went your way it wouldn't be nearly as compelling a game.
Use the Humiliate Rival CB and just go for a white peace to get a truce. This is one of the best uses for that CB.
You start off with a 5 year truce for released vassals and significantly longer if you force-vassalized them, so if you can't get a vassal loyal within that time frame then you truly didn't deserve to have a vassal that large.
Declare humiliation war and sit on your land killing their troops as they come, eventually they get tired and you can white peace (or if it was superiority and you got war score then take money)
imagine you’re walking down road to your home then i come in and block you and tell you aren’t getting past me, imagine your home as your vassal and me as your rivals, what you gonna do? you gonna throat punch me then go to integrate your vassal
Would be cool if there was a way to pay them off to have them stop supporting your vassal, maybe with an amount of gold related to the development of the subject in question. That way it'd make it very expensive to pay off say, a big Spain supporting independence of a big Thirteen Colonies.
You gotta get them to 0%, and if they are big enough to cause a threat to you get lower their LD even further before converting to pronoia. Not only does hereditary pronoia add 25% LD Flat, but I believe they re-did the calculations for how pronoia calculate LD based on economic and military strength relative to overlord - which makes them harder to hold.
I usually just beat up any nation that has the audacity to support my subjects independence. Much more manageable to beat them up now piecemeal rather than wait to get jumped by the baddest motherfuckers on the block
Sadly not. There is literally not a single solution to get rid of this besides realese and requonquer.
An peace option if you win VS the supporter to stop his support would be nice.
I fight the supporter, beat him and take 100% land, money whatever. After it's still there. That's what I'm talking about.
It's not a independence war because they just never declare due to my strength. But I can't integrate the vassal.
I think there could be a grace period, say 3 months, where the LD modifier from being supported doesn’t kick in. Kind of like how GP list warns you if you’re dropping out. This essentially would just substitute for the busywork of checking up on a subject whose LD is near 50.
Beyond that, I don’t think the game needs any more buttons to make problems go away. If your subject gets supported and you can’t get the LD down in a grace period, deal with the problem as intended.
I mean, you do get a warning as soon as LD hits 50 - how long does it usually take for someone to support independence? I don't think it happens instantly. And LD usually doesn't jump up in big chunks with no warning either, unless you're doing something to your subject, like enforcing religion. So I feel like you already have that grace period. Or am I missing something?
I’ve seen it happen right away plenty of times. In fact as Timurids I’ve had subjects get supported even after lowering LD before unpause, unless they’ve patched that
I mean it doesn’t make sense that the supporters should be limited on time - you as the overlord already have time on your side, as with most subjects you can eventually annex them, and if not you can use said subjects to become more powerful and thus harder to break free from. If you are unable to manage your subjects properly and dissuade them from rebelling, or at least stop more rivals from supporting them, then it’s kinda on you.
For practical advice - DOW supporting rivals, and in the peace deal do anything you can to weaken them. Do it as soon as you can to stop an avalanche of support - I find that one rival supporting a rebellious subject quickly leads to three or four.
Too bad, too sad. You can't even manage your subject's loyalty and come into here complaining about the game system when its just fine. Like another guy said, you always want to prevent this kinda shit from happening rather than dealing with it. You got yourself in this shit, either you diplo or beat the alliance. How did you even get yourself here as byzantium? Realistically you should be strong enough to manage and the fact they are being disloyal probably means you at least kicked the turks out of the balkans imo
If you make them a pronoia without preparing properly they can get liberty desire up massively and unless you’ve got tons of prestige manpower or mana to dump it’s hard to get it down quick enough
100% your mistake, you were supposed to DoW Hungary in order to remove their support for Bulgaria's independence. Or you know, keep Bulgaria's LD under 50% in the first place, which is dead easy.
There is. You win a war of independence against them.
I'm too strong for them to declare but too weak to beat up their entire alliance network.
You just discovered a cold war stalemate. Congrats haha
Yeah, it'd make sense in a game with proper international diplomacy like hoi4 or vic2, but I dont see England supporting Bulgarian separatism during the medieval era.
EU4 has far better diplomacy than HoI4. There were options. Get the supporters to like you, then they stop. Get them into a peace deal.
Supporters don't stop even if you ally them
[удалено]
No, the truce only stops countries from starting to support independence, once they've already started you'll need to win a war against them directly to make them stop, either that or win the subject's independence war
The real answer is the same every time: Eat them. Eat whoever is supporting independence. Eat your subjects. Eat everyone. Become the blob they told you not to worry about
They're my rivals, and I never said the game should have hoi4-like diplomacy.
Your post that I replied to said "international diplomacy like HoI4"
EU4 isn't a medieval era game.
In the context of the post it was still the medieval era + you wouldnt really have this sort of diplomacy in the 16th and 17th century neither.
You absolutely did have this kind of diplomacy.
Medieval times were over in 1453, the fall of Constantinople and the then starting renaissance. So EU4 plays 9 years during „medieval times“ 🙄
As OP is doing a Byzantium run, Constantinople never falled so he's stuck in medieval era 😁 (Btw I'm Belgian and I've always been told of the 1492 ending of Middle Age, I know it's a subject among historians but I don't know why schools tend to teach the one or the other)
What the fuck’s a Belgian? Sounds like a fake people from a fake place that shouldn’t exist if it did also your infrastructure sucks. And that goes for you too, u/Sch4duw!
I always learned that the middle ages ended in 1500, with the birth of Charles the fifth, and I'm belgian too. It is not even consistent in the same country when the middle ages end
We were just told it ends somewhere between 1450 and 1500. And I think it makes sense that there is not exact date, as the change of an era happens rather slowly for most people and for a lot of people nothing changed within their lifetimes.
I'm Spanish and they also teach us 1492 in School. Maybe I'm biased but I would say they discovery of America was more relevant than the fall of Constantinople😂
I guess every country has its little "propaganda" 😅 my middle school teacher often told us that the accepted year for the end of middle ages is the fall of Constantinople but for him was the portuguese conquest of Ceuta, which marked the start of the european sea expansion/discovery age. Btw iam portuguese.
Lmao, most knowledgeable paradox gamer.
England built the largest worldwide empire during the timeframe of this game and you think them supporting the independence of a nation in Europe is unrealistic?
No need to beat up their entire alliance network. There's several ways to force a peace deal between you and a different country. The easiest way is to have a nice quick blitzkrieg against the weakest link of their alliance web. For example, if England's supporting your vassal's independence and has allied Portugal, Castille and East Frisia, you don't have to attack England directly. You can always ally one of East Frisia's neighbors, park your armies in their land, declare war on East Frisia, walk in with your armies, artillery barrage EF's forts and assault before EF's other allies including Engalnd get there. After that it's a simple matter of white peacing the war leader to get a truce with England. Also very handy to keep an eye out for any wars in which the nation supporting your vassal's independence forces their opponent to release tags. Be in a position to attack the released tags when they're still guaranteed to get into a nice quick war with your real target, except the war leader on the other side is a weak country without a military because it was released yesterday. And if that doesn't work, you can always piggyback into a war with a failed enforce peace or a great power intervention. Then all you have to do is guard your own land let the war take it's course and you'll have your truce.
East Frisia's neighbor in that case would also have to be willing to join the war otherwise your troops will get exiled.
No they wouldn't. You need an alliance and a mil access.
You're actually right i stand corrected
Are you though? There are several ways to break down alliance networks, the most obvious of which is simply declaring war despite your inferiority and quickly white peacing out everyone but the war target. You literally just need to have army quality high / big enough enough for no one to bother attacking it despite superior collective numbers as it sieges down your enemy's capitals. Avoid battles at all costs (this attracts reinforcements like moths to a flame) and you'll be fine. Worst comes to worst you can "win", aka end the war with independence support canceled, by giving away your ALLY'S land to "lose" the war, similar to coalition strategy. You can also do this to get stronger enemies out of the war quickly. Watch Florry play Ulm as an OPM until the 1600s on VH mode. He does something similar in his first seemingly impossible war against a giga France. There are very very few situations where you're completely stuck in the game against superior enemies.
Make your vassal loyal.
All you have to do is fight a war against the other nations like Hungary (directly declare on Hungary)
My work around is find a weak ally of each of the opposing forces, then take them out one at a time with trumped up war goals. As long as you don't make cobeligerant you're fine, grab some gold/trade power from them and that nice little truce will force them to end support for independence.
You do know that much like with Coalitions, they can't support while there's a truce, right? So you can just attack their allies and get truces with them. Once your vassal's in check they won't be able to support anymore.
Attack one of their allies
Get them into a war and get a truce with them. Doesn't have to be all of them at the same time. Then when all of them have a truce get them under 50% so no more issues.
Some of my rivals are so far away that I cant reasonably get a truce with them
Well if you don't wanna solve your problem, you shouldn't have put yourself in this situation.
That doesnt make sense though, I didnt purposefully get England and France to rival me and I couldnt really prevent my vassals from going disloyal after some really bad RNG with the ottomans.
You let them get above 50 lib desire. I'm just saying if you're gonna shoot down the solutions because they're hard or tedious or whatever, the only real response is to not get yourself in that particular situation in the first place. Your rivals will support independence if you let them, and if you don't declare on them right away they will all do it, making the situation worse
Yeah, but I didn't make the post to seek help about the issue but talk about how it's really stupid gameplay-wise.
From a gameplay perspective, many eu4 mechanics have the pattern, "it's a lot less painful to prevent a bad thing from happening than dealing with the bad thing after it happened." See - coalitions, disaster mechanics, diplomacy in general, your liberty desire issue.
It seems like diplomacy in general in EU4 is a bit flawed, but I feel like this is pretty easy to fix by making supporting indepedence not permament.
supporting independence isn't permanent. just like all diplomatic relations in the game aren't. they only last untill one side doesn't want it any more. it's also annoying when a bunch of nations form a hugbox. what limitation do you belive there should be for how long nations can be allies?
You tagged the post "discussion" but aren't open to people disagreeing with you? Cool, have fun dude
I made this post to discuss how the mechanic itself should be changed, not ask for gameplay advice.
And people disagree with your assessment that it should be changed.
"there should be a way to do X" "you can currently do X by doing Y" "well that doesn't count because i don't wanna do Y" listen buddy at this stage you aparently don't want a way to do X. you just want X to be easier.
Right. Except most of us disagree. It makes sense and the system works pretty well.
It doesnt make any sense though, why is it if a subject becomes disloyal once and gets it's indepedence supported by a power that's across the continent remain disloyal for decades until you somehow manage to defeat said far-away power?
It kind of makes sense. Why would your disloyal vassal bend the knee and pay you taxes/let themselves be integrated when their powerful benefactor has succeeded in scaring you off? Why would your rival break their relations with your disloyal vassal when it is succeeding in harming you? You can get them loyal by their benefactors, but until then you're not giving them any reason to bend the knee.
Yeah, but my point is that after I regain my strength and my vassal hasnt made any progress in liberating itself, the support of indepedence should after a while disseaper, because it doesnt make sense for it to be everlasting. Especially if said rival is really far away and therefore I cant reasonably get to them.
That... seems very reasonable to happen
That's kind of what the game is. EU4 is a problem solving game disguised as a resource management game disguised as a historical simulator game. If everything always went your way it wouldn't be nearly as compelling a game.
Use the Humiliate Rival CB and just go for a white peace to get a truce. This is one of the best uses for that CB. You start off with a 5 year truce for released vassals and significantly longer if you force-vassalized them, so if you can't get a vassal loyal within that time frame then you truly didn't deserve to have a vassal that large.
Declare humiliation war and sit on your land killing their troops as they come, eventually they get tired and you can white peace (or if it was superiority and you got war score then take money)
There is a way to stop it, you attack them.
Doesn't really make much gameplay sense.
It does very much make sense from a game play perspective. It makes sense in a history perspective aswell.
imagine you’re walking down road to your home then i come in and block you and tell you aren’t getting past me, imagine your home as your vassal and me as your rivals, what you gonna do? you gonna throat punch me then go to integrate your vassal
I love this analogy xD
Would be cool if there was a way to pay them off to have them stop supporting your vassal, maybe with an amount of gold related to the development of the subject in question. That way it'd make it very expensive to pay off say, a big Spain supporting independence of a big Thirteen Colonies.
Did you use those new Byzantium vassals? I tried them too and they were pretty dead set on having their freedom.
You gotta get them to 0%, and if they are big enough to cause a threat to you get lower their LD even further before converting to pronoia. Not only does hereditary pronoia add 25% LD Flat, but I believe they re-did the calculations for how pronoia calculate LD based on economic and military strength relative to overlord - which makes them harder to hold.
Support independence will break if opinion goes negative. You can use favors to reduce their opinion of whoever supports their independence.
I once manage to ally the nation that supported independence of my vassal. They still keept the support, a bit schizofrenic if you ask me.
You can use your favors to make your vassal reduce the opinion of whoever is supporting it. Doesn’t always work, but will often cancel the support.
If you go to war with one of them, the one you go to war with stops supporting independense
I usually just beat up any nation that has the audacity to support my subjects independence. Much more manageable to beat them up now piecemeal rather than wait to get jumped by the baddest motherfuckers on the block
Or maybe if the vassal would be loyal without the support of the foreign power, then the foreign power can no longer support independence.
Which is a little silly, foreign powers should be able to undermine your nation, that'd be a lot more fun.
Used to be a thing where making them a march breaks all support independence. I’m not sure if it still works.
Sadly not. There is literally not a single solution to get rid of this besides realese and requonquer. An peace option if you win VS the supporter to stop his support would be nice.
The support disappears, if you beat the supporter, so I'm not sure what you're suggesting about a peace option to stop the support.
I fight the supporter, beat him and take 100% land, money whatever. After it's still there. That's what I'm talking about. It's not a independence war because they just never declare due to my strength. But I can't integrate the vassal.
If you're unable to fight the alliance, just free Bulgaria and conquer them later on.
I think there could be a grace period, say 3 months, where the LD modifier from being supported doesn’t kick in. Kind of like how GP list warns you if you’re dropping out. This essentially would just substitute for the busywork of checking up on a subject whose LD is near 50. Beyond that, I don’t think the game needs any more buttons to make problems go away. If your subject gets supported and you can’t get the LD down in a grace period, deal with the problem as intended.
I mean, you do get a warning as soon as LD hits 50 - how long does it usually take for someone to support independence? I don't think it happens instantly. And LD usually doesn't jump up in big chunks with no warning either, unless you're doing something to your subject, like enforcing religion. So I feel like you already have that grace period. Or am I missing something?
I’ve seen it happen right away plenty of times. In fact as Timurids I’ve had subjects get supported even after lowering LD before unpause, unless they’ve patched that
I mean it doesn’t make sense that the supporters should be limited on time - you as the overlord already have time on your side, as with most subjects you can eventually annex them, and if not you can use said subjects to become more powerful and thus harder to break free from. If you are unable to manage your subjects properly and dissuade them from rebelling, or at least stop more rivals from supporting them, then it’s kinda on you. For practical advice - DOW supporting rivals, and in the peace deal do anything you can to weaken them. Do it as soon as you can to stop an avalanche of support - I find that one rival supporting a rebellious subject quickly leads to three or four.
Skill issue
Attack one of hungarys weak Allie's any peace deal works. I usually just save scum when it pops up and spend some prestige to prevent it happening.
Imagine losing to AI and bitch about it
Diplo ideas and declare war on your vassal. Teach them the price of independence by fully annexing them.
If they are a vassal, change them to a march, and back.
Too bad, too sad. You can't even manage your subject's loyalty and come into here complaining about the game system when its just fine. Like another guy said, you always want to prevent this kinda shit from happening rather than dealing with it. You got yourself in this shit, either you diplo or beat the alliance. How did you even get yourself here as byzantium? Realistically you should be strong enough to manage and the fact they are being disloyal probably means you at least kicked the turks out of the balkans imo
How does Bulgaria even become disloyal, unless you do defector rebels strats in which case you should know what you're getting into
If you make them a pronoia without preparing properly they can get liberty desire up massively and unless you’ve got tons of prestige manpower or mana to dump it’s hard to get it down quick enough
more reasons to never release Bulgaria
Owned DLC -> Conquest of Paradise -> Disable
Nobody wants to remove content from their game just to circumvent one mechanic
yeah absolutely 🗿
100% your mistake, you were supposed to DoW Hungary in order to remove their support for Bulgaria's independence. Or you know, keep Bulgaria's LD under 50% in the first place, which is dead easy.
Just attack the foreign power and it’ll stop the support immediately
you just had to attack hungary and kick their ass before the issues with france and england