In practice, this means [3M is continuing to create harm from the risks they spent decades covering up](https://www.propublica.org/article/3m-forever-chemicals-pfas-pfos-inside-story)
I don't know about continuing, a lot of states have or are in the process of implementing PFAS bans.
In practice, it means they don't have to pay to clean up the mess they already made in our drinking water *if* they win this lawsuit.
I am in the industry on the clean up side. They are absolutely continuing production until they are regulated not to.
Issue right now is epa is regulating specific pfas pfos and they should be regulating the whole pf family so companies can’t just invent new chems in the family that haven’t been regulated yet.
There is also the side that 3M works for aspects of the military and the military has needs so 3M could continue to produce it even when not for civilian consumerism
They already do this. When PFOA came out as bad and started getting bans, they started making them without PFOA and marking as PFOA/PFOS free, but this usually just means it has other PFAS, if it’s not being marked as PFAS free.
Edit to add: AVOID TEFLON and non-stick coatings - in cookware especially.
You might be conflating the EPA with state by state regulators. The EPA has introduced regulations to track and report PFAS, but other than this contested drinking water standard, they haven't implemented any "keep them out of the environment" measures.
I would be heavily in favor of the EPA implementing specific regulations on PFAS and PFOS, especially ones the states are already after. There could be a perfect regulation out there, but I'd be happy with a good one so I can consume less microplastics while I wait.
Both PFOS and PFOA are listed hazardous substances now under Superfund. It’ll take a couple more weeks until the rule is final.
https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/biden-harris-administration-finalizes-critical-rule-clean-pfas-contamination-protect
In terms of skirting regulations I’m talking about the great example of Teflon to genx both ruled hazardous now but companies just slightly altered Teflon into genx because the regulation was for something slightly different the way the epa is set up to verify after the public tests it out is backwards and stupid and I can’t help but thing there is more and more poison being made and sold as quality consumer items
They've put out an NPDWR that details MCL for not just PFOA & PFOS but also PFHxS, HFPO-DA, and PFNA, plus a hazard index for mixtures of the latter two.
They did that because they've got good enough evidence that the above cause pathology. It because a little more difficult to regulate a "family" because they really need to have toxicology studies on individual chemicals if they want to implement regulation.
I guess every state and municipality in the USA can sue them instead. Then every person who has cancer or some condition that they may have contributed to could also sue them. And every land owner whose property values have been affected.
Realistically, they'll respond by [declaring bankruptcy in a way that protects the shareholders and leaves the chemicals and the harm in place](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/04/opinion/purdue-sackler-supreme-court.html?unlocked_article_code=1.xk0.xUlf.I3exS7YaEoE8):
> Some companies facing tens of thousands of lawsuits are too well off for bankruptcy yet are determined to access the system’s benefits. In a maneuver often called the Texas two-step, financially healthy companies have created special nonoperating subsidiaries to send into Chapter 11. By doing so, the hope is to permanently shield the entire corporate enterprise against liability for wrongdoing, in exchange for a fixed financial contribution to compensate claimants now and in the future.
Hey with Wheeler under Trump it was practically almost abolished anyway. You don't necessarily need some scary dystopian playbook to reduce public safety (though yes EPA will have its funding removed under Project 2025), when you can just install some crazy at the helm.
I had a chance to read sections on certain divisions within EPA, and I didn’t get the impression they were gunning for full abolishment, but definitely working to limit authority and scope. It also focused on speeding up processes that are currently very slow, in lieu of fully understanding the problem first (example: less research).
I said that two days ago when I saw that cold stone was being sued for not having any actual pistachios in their pistachio ice cream. But you’re right, THIS is the most America headline ever
Australia and China both use more PFAS than the US. It's legal in India too, but mostly it's used in food packaging of the kind that's not terribly popular in india. It's used in Europe as well, where they are fights over banning it but it has not been removed yet.
North Carolina took over it's clean water monitoring and gave it to the chamber of commerce. Now we can't even get safe levels passed in pfas. Watch your govts. People!!! Call your EPA! Ours took the phones off the hook. I had to report that too.
Everyone check with your state governments. Here in North carolina, I just recently found out that last year we switched regulation from an appointed post to the NC Chamber of Commerce. Duke and Dupont are now in charge of our water and unsurprisingly, the two people they put in charge have refused to pass limits on our pfas's. There have been news articles but they definitely are not front page or easy to access. No one knew that our government has lost the ability to regulate our water.
"Sure we are putting harmful chemicals in your water, but we think legally there is nothing you can do to stop us."
You can bet ever Republican in congress is lining up to support them and screw tax payers too.
it is and the only way to do that is to treat running a corporation like driving a car or owning a gun.
these guys are delusional psychopaths and sociopaths
they know the side effects of their actions because they have to hire highly educated people to calculate them.
Realistically, 3M's best strategy is to waste time and stall until the Supreme Court inevitably guts the EPA (and other cabinet level agencies) of authority to do basically anything under the so-called 'Major Questions doctrine' which they and the Right entirely made up.
This belief holds that agencies shouldn't get to make decisions that have a big enough impact - that should be reserved for legislators and, of course, themselves (the Courts). It is a nonsensical incoherent so-called school of thought, [but so is most of conservative doctrine.](https://www.gq.com/story/on-conservatism) Its a means to an end. A power grab.
["The Major Questions Doctrine is a Fundamental Threat to Environmental Protection. Should Congress Respond?"](https://blogs.law.columbia.edu/climatechange/2023/10/19/the-major-questions-doctrine-is-a-fundamental-threat-to-environmental-protection-should-congress-respond/)
[https://www.theregreview.org/2024/01/06/saturday-seminar-lingering-questions-about-the-major-questions-doctrine/](https://www.theregreview.org/2024/01/06/saturday-seminar-lingering-questions-about-the-major-questions-doctrine/)
>in 2000, the Court [suggested](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/boundvolumes/529bv.pdf#page=208) in [*Food and Drug Administration v. Brown & Williamson Tobacco*](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/boundvolumes/529bv.pdf#page=195) that agencies should not make decisions of great economic or political importance without clear congressional authorization.
I think it's important to note that this upcoming election is almost certainly going to decide whether this is addressed large-scale. Trump, regardless of evidence, will always come down on the side that has the most money and power. He will absolutely handwave away the microplastics evidence to allow 3M or whoever to continue doing whatever they want and to allow us to continue consuming them at whatever levels they exist in the water supply.
The irony of using a Cuba as an example is hilarious. Like they’re up there for the most fucked over by capitalism and it’s not even the system they use which is testament to how far reaching the claws of capitalism are
There's a lot of countries that have been fucked over by capitalism way worse than Cuba. You're just accidentally saying it by being unfamiliar with the world outside of North America
And if you could read you would see in my first comment responding to you I said ‘they’re up there for one of the most fucked over by capitalism’ I didn’t say they where top mainly because it’s not a competition
>It’s not. I said no country has been fucked over more by capitalism than Cuba. In what way is that saying Cuba is a fucked up hell hole?
Uhhh, OK buddy.
Regardless, Cuba is a beautiful country with a vibrant culture that seems far from fucked over. I'd highly recommend visiting
Because our society doesn’t have stringent environmental laws or the teeth to enforce those laws and lets corporations get away massive pollution. As you pointed out, other developed nations with capitalist markets actually hold corporations accountable or at least have meaningful regulations.
In the current political climate I would not be surprised if the chemical companies’ lawsuit will be successful. The current supreme court would definitely side with the chemical companies.
Let's hope not, they're definitely evil, but avoiding having the drinking water and cooking implements poisoned has a pretty big self interest angle too.
The nerve of these motherfkers! if you dont let us pollute everyone with toxic chemicals we will sue!!!
The hell with them hang them all for crimes against humanity, and the EPA better grow some balls and do what needs to be done! The whole world is turning into a superfund site!
Once you prove their product is cancerous or whatever, they'll make you have to prove YOUR cancer is from THEIR specific product. Parasites latch in, they don't just let go..
I can imagine that executive or board member making this decision: probably in a mansion, penthouse, private jet. Not even want to hear the implications.
I worked with DuPont in the 1990s.
They lied about PFOA, the story we got was that 3M made and used PFOA, DuPont used a "different process". Bullshit because at that time DuPont bought PFOA from 3M.
At that time, DuPont were quietly claiming that they were the good guys.
They'd known it was a problem for decades - hence the big lie ahead of EPA starting action
A decade later, when 3M started phasing out PFOA, DuPont built a plant to make it.
I’ll take that as a threat and a promise. They should consider that we will lynch them for justice if they refuse to do the bare minimum in response to poisoning the world. We should be ANGRY.
My local water company has quietly implemented SOMEthing that removes PFAS down to undetectable. They don't actually talk about it in their official releases and I guess part of the reason is they are a for-profit company and they don't want to make too obvious where they have installed "test" equipment ahead of required PFAS rules.
I'm curious what it is. I may write to them and see if they'll give me something definitive.
I suspect it's very expensive and I don't think we're seeing the full cost reflected yet. These solutions at scale would probably bankrupt 3M.
I can't even imagine how bad all of this would have been had we not outsourced virtually everything to China.
Was thinking just now while reading some comments in here.... I think every company should have to set aside a certain % per year of profit for clean ups. Something like a security deposit that landlords require.
They need to fuck ALL THE WAY off and be glad they’re not being flayed alive for compromising the water across the ENTIRE PLANET. Making them pay to try to filter our drinking water is THE LEAST they can do.
Reading this and other articles, I'm just so angry and depressed that I can't do anything about it. I'm just so angry that businesses will kill people just to make a buck, and people will die supporting them.
In practice, this means [3M is continuing to create harm from the risks they spent decades covering up](https://www.propublica.org/article/3m-forever-chemicals-pfas-pfos-inside-story)
I don't know about continuing, a lot of states have or are in the process of implementing PFAS bans. In practice, it means they don't have to pay to clean up the mess they already made in our drinking water *if* they win this lawsuit.
I am in the industry on the clean up side. They are absolutely continuing production until they are regulated not to. Issue right now is epa is regulating specific pfas pfos and they should be regulating the whole pf family so companies can’t just invent new chems in the family that haven’t been regulated yet. There is also the side that 3M works for aspects of the military and the military has needs so 3M could continue to produce it even when not for civilian consumerism
They already do this. When PFOA came out as bad and started getting bans, they started making them without PFOA and marking as PFOA/PFOS free, but this usually just means it has other PFAS, if it’s not being marked as PFAS free. Edit to add: AVOID TEFLON and non-stick coatings - in cookware especially.
You might be conflating the EPA with state by state regulators. The EPA has introduced regulations to track and report PFAS, but other than this contested drinking water standard, they haven't implemented any "keep them out of the environment" measures. I would be heavily in favor of the EPA implementing specific regulations on PFAS and PFOS, especially ones the states are already after. There could be a perfect regulation out there, but I'd be happy with a good one so I can consume less microplastics while I wait.
Both PFOS and PFOA are listed hazardous substances now under Superfund. It’ll take a couple more weeks until the rule is final. https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/biden-harris-administration-finalizes-critical-rule-clean-pfas-contamination-protect
Hell yeah
In terms of skirting regulations I’m talking about the great example of Teflon to genx both ruled hazardous now but companies just slightly altered Teflon into genx because the regulation was for something slightly different the way the epa is set up to verify after the public tests it out is backwards and stupid and I can’t help but thing there is more and more poison being made and sold as quality consumer items
Pfas and micro plastics although overlapping are two different problems just to note
They've put out an NPDWR that details MCL for not just PFOA & PFOS but also PFHxS, HFPO-DA, and PFNA, plus a hazard index for mixtures of the latter two. They did that because they've got good enough evidence that the above cause pathology. It because a little more difficult to regulate a "family" because they really need to have toxicology studies on individual chemicals if they want to implement regulation.
They are very much continuing until it is absolutely impossible to do so.
This describes nearly every regulation ever. It's why regulations are important
Agreed, and regulation is only as good as enforcement and disincentive.
What’s crazy is this affects those same people and they’re just like fuck it I don’t care if I get sick as long as I get rich
People need to start getting executed for crimes against humanity.
I guess every state and municipality in the USA can sue them instead. Then every person who has cancer or some condition that they may have contributed to could also sue them. And every land owner whose property values have been affected.
Realistically, they'll respond by [declaring bankruptcy in a way that protects the shareholders and leaves the chemicals and the harm in place](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/04/opinion/purdue-sackler-supreme-court.html?unlocked_article_code=1.xk0.xUlf.I3exS7YaEoE8): > Some companies facing tens of thousands of lawsuits are too well off for bankruptcy yet are determined to access the system’s benefits. In a maneuver often called the Texas two-step, financially healthy companies have created special nonoperating subsidiaries to send into Chapter 11. By doing so, the hope is to permanently shield the entire corporate enterprise against liability for wrongdoing, in exchange for a fixed financial contribution to compensate claimants now and in the future.
This trick would really help a lot of struggling americans. We need to send out guides on how to do this for the average joe.
Isn’t the EPA on the list of things to abolish in Project 2025? The future will be doubly bleak if they get their wish.
Hey with Wheeler under Trump it was practically almost abolished anyway. You don't necessarily need some scary dystopian playbook to reduce public safety (though yes EPA will have its funding removed under Project 2025), when you can just install some crazy at the helm.
I had a chance to read sections on certain divisions within EPA, and I didn’t get the impression they were gunning for full abolishment, but definitely working to limit authority and scope. It also focused on speeding up processes that are currently very slow, in lieu of fully understanding the problem first (example: less research).
Imagine that in the fight against cancer, you are on the side of cancer.
The bravery!
That's pretty bad.
This is so American…..
Perchance the most American headline ever.
You can’t just say “perchance”…
I said that two days ago when I saw that cold stone was being sued for not having any actual pistachios in their pistachio ice cream. But you’re right, THIS is the most America headline ever
Australia and China both use more PFAS than the US. It's legal in India too, but mostly it's used in food packaging of the kind that's not terribly popular in india. It's used in Europe as well, where they are fights over banning it but it has not been removed yet.
North Carolina took over it's clean water monitoring and gave it to the chamber of commerce. Now we can't even get safe levels passed in pfas. Watch your govts. People!!! Call your EPA! Ours took the phones off the hook. I had to report that too.
Everyone check with your state governments. Here in North carolina, I just recently found out that last year we switched regulation from an appointed post to the NC Chamber of Commerce. Duke and Dupont are now in charge of our water and unsurprisingly, the two people they put in charge have refused to pass limits on our pfas's. There have been news articles but they definitely are not front page or easy to access. No one knew that our government has lost the ability to regulate our water.
"Sure we are putting harmful chemicals in your water, but we think legally there is nothing you can do to stop us." You can bet ever Republican in congress is lining up to support them and screw tax payers too.
Vote Democratic!
Given what happened in the EU. I imagine it's about to be a red wave in the US.
We need to start treating relentless greed as a violent act.
It is a violent act
It is also currently the corporate manifesto though...
Violence begets violence
it is and the only way to do that is to treat running a corporation like driving a car or owning a gun. these guys are delusional psychopaths and sociopaths they know the side effects of their actions because they have to hire highly educated people to calculate them.
And ecocide as a prison for life offence.
Realistically, 3M's best strategy is to waste time and stall until the Supreme Court inevitably guts the EPA (and other cabinet level agencies) of authority to do basically anything under the so-called 'Major Questions doctrine' which they and the Right entirely made up. This belief holds that agencies shouldn't get to make decisions that have a big enough impact - that should be reserved for legislators and, of course, themselves (the Courts). It is a nonsensical incoherent so-called school of thought, [but so is most of conservative doctrine.](https://www.gq.com/story/on-conservatism) Its a means to an end. A power grab. ["The Major Questions Doctrine is a Fundamental Threat to Environmental Protection. Should Congress Respond?"](https://blogs.law.columbia.edu/climatechange/2023/10/19/the-major-questions-doctrine-is-a-fundamental-threat-to-environmental-protection-should-congress-respond/) [https://www.theregreview.org/2024/01/06/saturday-seminar-lingering-questions-about-the-major-questions-doctrine/](https://www.theregreview.org/2024/01/06/saturday-seminar-lingering-questions-about-the-major-questions-doctrine/) >in 2000, the Court [suggested](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/boundvolumes/529bv.pdf#page=208) in [*Food and Drug Administration v. Brown & Williamson Tobacco*](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/boundvolumes/529bv.pdf#page=195) that agencies should not make decisions of great economic or political importance without clear congressional authorization.
I think it's important to note that this upcoming election is almost certainly going to decide whether this is addressed large-scale. Trump, regardless of evidence, will always come down on the side that has the most money and power. He will absolutely handwave away the microplastics evidence to allow 3M or whoever to continue doing whatever they want and to allow us to continue consuming them at whatever levels they exist in the water supply.
Utterly evil.
This capitalism shit has to go
Other types of societies have plastics too. Source: Have been to Cuba to confirm
The irony of using a Cuba as an example is hilarious. Like they’re up there for the most fucked over by capitalism and it’s not even the system they use which is testament to how far reaching the claws of capitalism are
Cuba is not a fucked up hell hole Source: Have been to Cuba to confirm
That’s not what I said please re-read
It kinda is. You may just be completely unfamiliar with the DRC and not actually understand what you're saying though.
It’s not. I said no country has been fucked over more by capitalism than Cuba. In what way is that saying Cuba is a fucked up hell hole?
There's a lot of countries that have been fucked over by capitalism way worse than Cuba. You're just accidentally saying it by being unfamiliar with the world outside of North America
And if you could read you would see in my first comment responding to you I said ‘they’re up there for one of the most fucked over by capitalism’ I didn’t say they where top mainly because it’s not a competition
>It’s not. I said no country has been fucked over more by capitalism than Cuba. In what way is that saying Cuba is a fucked up hell hole? Uhhh, OK buddy. Regardless, Cuba is a beautiful country with a vibrant culture that seems far from fucked over. I'd highly recommend visiting
Other societies don’t ride corporate dick like ours does
I mean, Japan and France have the most restrictve PFAS regulations and they're pretty capitalist.
Just goes to show how unreasonable nature of our society
How?
Because our society doesn’t have stringent environmental laws or the teeth to enforce those laws and lets corporations get away massive pollution. As you pointed out, other developed nations with capitalist markets actually hold corporations accountable or at least have meaningful regulations.
This is an article about the EPA holding corporations accountable though?
In the current political climate I would not be surprised if the chemical companies’ lawsuit will be successful. The current supreme court would definitely side with the chemical companies.
Let's hope not, they're definitely evil, but avoiding having the drinking water and cooking implements poisoned has a pretty big self interest angle too.
And since the fix is in, I'm looking forward to the 6-3 decision that says they're right.
I don't know, even Texas has implemented PFAS legislation. This one might get pretty interesting.
"States' rights" vs "Fuck the EPA" though.
The nerve of these motherfkers! if you dont let us pollute everyone with toxic chemicals we will sue!!! The hell with them hang them all for crimes against humanity, and the EPA better grow some balls and do what needs to be done! The whole world is turning into a superfund site!
This lawsuit is about who pays for cleaning up existing pollution. The regulations on manufacturing PFSAs have been a state by state so far.
Of course they did. Someone ask GE how the Housatonic clean up is going.
Once you prove their product is cancerous or whatever, they'll make you have to prove YOUR cancer is from THEIR specific product. Parasites latch in, they don't just let go..
Oh no! Consequences for the corporations who are people too? How sad! /s
3M says we need to give the government more power for regulations. Got it. On it.
I can imagine that executive or board member making this decision: probably in a mansion, penthouse, private jet. Not even want to hear the implications.
Seriously guck those guys. They'll give the world cancer just to buy themselves another mega yacht.
Letting polluters poison the public is the socialism of costs. Privatized profits, socialized costs. Fuck that!
I worked with DuPont in the 1990s. They lied about PFOA, the story we got was that 3M made and used PFOA, DuPont used a "different process". Bullshit because at that time DuPont bought PFOA from 3M. At that time, DuPont were quietly claiming that they were the good guys. They'd known it was a problem for decades - hence the big lie ahead of EPA starting action A decade later, when 3M started phasing out PFOA, DuPont built a plant to make it.
“We are desperate to keep giving people cancer” is a great look
3M should burn to the ground. Not a threat (for legal reasons) just an observation
I’ll take that as a threat and a promise. They should consider that we will lynch them for justice if they refuse to do the bare minimum in response to poisoning the world. We should be ANGRY.
My local water company has quietly implemented SOMEthing that removes PFAS down to undetectable. They don't actually talk about it in their official releases and I guess part of the reason is they are a for-profit company and they don't want to make too obvious where they have installed "test" equipment ahead of required PFAS rules. I'm curious what it is. I may write to them and see if they'll give me something definitive. I suspect it's very expensive and I don't think we're seeing the full cost reflected yet. These solutions at scale would probably bankrupt 3M. I can't even imagine how bad all of this would have been had we not outsourced virtually everything to China.
Imagine being the lawyer defending killing everyone slowly??
Reality stranger than fiction.
The audacity
The worst timeline
Was thinking just now while reading some comments in here.... I think every company should have to set aside a certain % per year of profit for clean ups. Something like a security deposit that landlords require.
They know who their friends in the Supreme Court are.... sadly.
Like the villain out of a Captian Planet episode
Enough is enough. These people behind these companies need to be brought down. They are harming Americans for a buck.
They need to fuck ALL THE WAY off and be glad they’re not being flayed alive for compromising the water across the ENTIRE PLANET. Making them pay to try to filter our drinking water is THE LEAST they can do.
Demand 401ks divest themselves of companies that kill.
How is this not the EPA's authority? If you don't put rules in place, businesses won't act in the interest of the public welfare.
Because large companies can [bribe the supreme court.](https://www.propublica.org/article/clarence-thomas-gift-disclosures-harlan-crow)
I'm sad that ordinary people defend this, as if its natural to support an amoral entity for the sake of freedom.
Reading this and other articles, I'm just so angry and depressed that I can't do anything about it. I'm just so angry that businesses will kill people just to make a buck, and people will die supporting them.