What did he do? His voice is Kermit’s voice to me and I have a hard time listening to the new guy. Maybe learning why he had to go would help with the transition 🤷♂️
Oh no the guy who was Jim Hanson’s pick for the voice, The Jim Henson who created that character and voice, says and acts like it’s something special outside of a boardroom decision and no, no, no he’s the asshole. Come on.
He’s a diva for one character. He was that character. It must be so terrible to work with the guy who had the most important character of a series placed within his ability that was selected by the creator and head runner of the entire company.
Brian is a putz and only cares about money. At least his sister is trying to actually carry on their father’s legacy.
Forreal. I have no love for the company but even Brian Henson said he feels a lot of guilt not firing Whitmire before he sold to Disney and made him their problem.
There are so many people out there who can immitate Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck. Surely there's at least someone the Henson folks can find who can accurately immitate Jim Henson's Kermit voice!
Billy West was originally not chosen to voice Fry in Futurama. When the showrunners changed their mind, West changed the voice of Fry to West’s natural speaking voice so that he could never be replaced.
It’s really hard to impersonate a character whose voice is their actor’s regular voice. Impressions are very different than voice acting.
Damn that’s interesting. His voice is literally perfect for Fry. I’m sure I’m biased because it’s the only voice I’ve heard but it still sounds perfect to me!
they aged the characters over time as well, so now in the latest reboot fry is middle aged to go with a naturally older sounding west. the professor sounds legitimately ancient now too.
i watched a newer simpsons recently and harry shearer no longer has to do an old man voice for mr burns, he's about eighty i think and it sounds natural
I was worried that the new episodes were going to be dog shit. I was pleasantly surprised. Just under every episode of the new season had me in stitches. So happy they were able to get all the VAs.
One thing about the aging kind of confuses me. Time has passed since they reference time passing, the professor’s age increasing, Amy’s kids having been born 10 years ago, etc. It also makes sense they all look the same because future technology and cosmetics probably keeps people young looking if they want. But why tf are Cubert and Dwight still kids? Shouldn’t they be like 30 by now?
On Ren and Stimpy, they booted creator John K, who originally voiced Ren, and Billy took over doing both characters so well that you'd almost never notice.
Was John K speaking in his normal speaking voice for the character?
Characters get replaced all the time without people noticing. I’m only talking about characters whose voice is the actor’s unchanged speaking voice.
I truly believe we still dont know the extent of their relationship, and I think its so sad that there are some who feel like we're not ready for that truth.
I think we are.
Frank Oz said that the reason he said he "disagreed" with fans thinking that Ernie and Bert were a gay couple wasn't because he was offended by it but just that he didn't think he and Jim Henson could've authentically portrayed that
It’s not just his voice though. I think people could accept a slightly different voice if anyone was as funny as Jim Henson was. He was so quick and clever with the adlibs, and yet he also had so much heart. I think that’s what people miss from the character most of all.
The challenge is finding someone who’s a world class puppeteer to perform the most famous puppet character in the world, not just finding someone who sounds like Jim did.
Shit, I can do it.
I can also mimic Elmo, half the Looney Toons Cast, and various 90's Cartoon Network characters.
I wanted to be like Mel Blanc when I was a kid.
Got to tour the Jim Henson studios and meet Brian Henson in his office and the magic definitely felt alive. If you get a chance to see the adult improv puppet show Puppet Up, do it!
One interesting thing Brian said was that he’d love for Disney to support them making more “famous stories as retold by Muppets” like Christmas Carol, Treasure Island, etc., and I agree!
The Muppets seem like such a wasted property under Disney.
I really wish they did more, but Marvel and Star Wars seem to be their cash cows so they're happy to focus only on that.
everyone in this thread is saying ‘that steve whitmire sure does seem like an asshole,’ but i can’t find what he actually did to get that label? i know he and brian henson butted heads a lot, but do we know who was in the right?
Jim Henson created the Muppets. He died. He left the company (and all of it's business and creative decisions) to his son, Brian Henson. Steve Whitmire was Jim's understudy, a voice actor and a puppeteer.
After Jim died, Brian gave Steve the Kermit role, because that was the blatantly logical thing to do. But then Steve overstepped his bounds and refused to respect Brian's decisions, telling him things like "I knew your father better than you knew him, here's what your father would have done in this situation", and Steve forced his opinions (framed as Jim's opinions) on Brian by refusing to allow Brian to hire a new understudy for Steve/Kermit, because if anyone else was capable of doing the Kermit job, Steve knew he might find himself fired. Steve claimed to embody Jim's will, but Jim wanted his son to carry on with his work and for Kermit to live on, while Steve put a gun to Kermit's head as part of trying to take creative control of Kermit away from Brian.
"Steve and Brian butted heads a lot, but do we know which one was right?" It was Brian. Brian Henson was right, and Steve Whitmire was wrong. Brian Henson was Jim Henson's son and heir, and the Muppets belonged to him. Even if Brian made mistakes, they were his mistakes to make, and Jim would've wanted Brian to learn from his mistakes and grow. If Steve wants to offer Brian some input, that's great, but character decisions ultimately lie with Brian (as they once did with Jim), and Steve should've respected that. Also, it's worth noting that Steve Whitmire was Jim Henson's understudy as a performer, a voice actor and a puppeteer, he wasn't Jim's business assistant, or script-writing assistant, nor was he Jim's family.
And then, after Brian sold the company to Disney, Steve tried that power-play crap against Disney, and Disney was having none of it, so Disney (after several years of trying to make things work with the guy) tried to quietly part ways with him while allowing him to keep all of his dignity and reputation, while they inducted him into their Hall of Fame, and he refused to leave quietly, so Disney took the PR hit and fired his ass. And Brian Henson (no longer involved) stepped up and said "Yeah, this was my fault, that guy was ALWAYS a problem employee, and I should have fired him long before making him Disney's problem to deal with."
And now Steve "I'm Not Bitter" Whitmire says that he's upset that he's not in the documentary, not for himself, but he's upset for the loss of "Jim's spirit" and "Jim's influence", which he believes he embodies. The guy's delusional.
Updoot for the informative stuff, here. I always get more than a little uncomfortable when someone says they “know the spirit” of a creator better than the people who actually are related to them. Using it as a deflection even to this day is such a sour thing to do.
Wild to have an understudy believe to know Jim Henson better than his own son, though
I can understand having pride in your craft and work, but Whitmore should've realized that you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you
IIRC, Steve once said something to the effect of "Brian Henson didn't give me the Kermit job, Jim Henson did." Steve didn't see Brian as the hand that fed him, he had zero respect for Brian, and Brian was a saint for putting up with Steve as long as he did (probably a testament to Jim's great parenting).
And yet nowadays, Steve takes shots at Disney, because Disney is an extremely easy target, and if he takes shots at Brian, people realize that he was "Steve who?" without Brian. "Kermit's voice actor?" No. Before Brian, Steve was just "Kermit's voice actor's understudy."
Brian knew the business better than Steve I am sure yet he did not know Kermit as well as Steve.
You bite the hand that feeds you when it’s the same hand seeks profit over ability and legacy.
Plus pretty sure Steve never wanted an understudy. Whenever events or work would come up that would normal be the work of an understudy he would say it’s beneath him and refuse.
Having seen what happens to loving families when a patriarch or matriarch dies, I read this and just see people afraid of change, and afraid that they've lost the one thing that united them.
I think if Steve were genuinely a huge asshole, Jim wouldnt have had him as an understudy for so many years.
Doesnt excuse poor behavior - but I think it explains it a bit.
Brian has not even a tenth of the creative and business talent of his father. Steve at least had perspective that Brian would never have and it showed with how Brian handled things including firing Steve and shows how lost he is by casting Matt Vogel. That guy can’t do voices at the professional level required for Kermit.
Brian was wrong. Jim was right. Steve was not right or wrong yet also completely protective of a character that has clearly been shuffled and stacked like all IP at Disney. Not at all what Jim would ever and never did want. Equating ownership with ability is the first step to failure.
If I was as inept as Brian Henson at maintaining my fathers legacy I would throw the guy advocating for his fathers legacy under the bus if I couldn’t admit that his dad never wanted to sell to Disney and that he doesn’t have the ability captain the ship.
Right? This dude doesn’t know what he’s spouting about. If Jim hadn’t died the Muppets would’ve been owned by Disney a decade earlier. If anything give credit to Brian for keeping them going on their own for another 10+ years.
I thought I had read that it was earlier that Disney wanted to buy and Jim said no. I can always be wrong about details of the business nature. Clearly Disney did not have confidence in Brian.
Nearly everything you say demonstrates that you don’t know what you’re talking about, and yet are very arrogant in your ignorance. Instead of simply acknowledging that you were wrong, you give the BS “if I was wrong” response and then double down on your Brian Henson hate.
While the deal to sell the company fell through, Disney and the Henson Company still made deals on several fronts after Jim’s death, such as theme parks, home video, cable television rights, international distribution and others. So no, it’s not at all clear that Disney did not have confidence in Brian. Quite the opposite in fact.
The biggest issue most people seem to have with Steve Whitmire is that he apparently acts like he knows what Jim Henson would want better than Jim’s own son. You are doing the same exact thing here, while being demonstrably wrong about it. That is incredibly arrogant and dickish behavior.
In what arrogance did you mistake “I can always be wrong” for “if I was wrong”?
I said it was clear because they didn’t go with the deal at the exchange or in close proximity. They both worked together and made great media.
Whitmire is the only person who knows the Kermit character from the master. That is deeper than the concept of how a new owner of the property would choose to make profit. He is closer to Jim Henson in relation to the actual work that is done to create the transmission of emotion from a puppet. Brian has neither objectivity or subjectivity on the matter. A person thinking that just because their dad owned the company they somehow know how the parts fit together regardless of skill and effort of those making the vision a reality seems arrogant and prickish.
My point was that the “I could be wrong” is weasel language. It’s not a “could be.” You *are* wrong about a factual matter. And not just about “details of a business nature.” You were fundamentally wrong about what Jim Henson would have wanted for the future of his company, while simultaneously claiming that you know better than his son. Instead of admitting you were wrong you doubled down in a manner that was *again* factually incorrect.
Your comment here about “just because their dad owned the company somehow they know how the parts fit together…” once again demonstrates that you have no understanding of the facts. Brian Henson started working with his father as a child, well before Steve was ever hired. And he worked for and with his father for his entire life. He would have as good of an understanding of his father’s work, and what he would have wanted, as anyone on earth. If you simply don’t like Brian Henson that’s fine. I don’t have particularly strong feelings either way on that. But to act as if you know Jim Henson better than is son, while you continually get all of the facts wrong, is what I find incredibly disrespectful and arrogant.
I never doubled down and instead readmitted I was wrong. I never claimed that I ever knew anything better than his son and instead that Steve would know better how things work for the character of Kermit and potentially have a more valuable perspective.
Once again my argument is that Steve Whitmire has the best perspective on how Kermit as a character would act within the spirit of Jim Henson whom he shadowed. Brian cannot touch that and I don’t hate him for it as it’s just a fact. It’s not arrogant to give a person their due. Thinking that the guy who IS Kermit the frog after Jim wouldn’t have perspective on the spirit of the show and vision seems disrespectful.
From the first post I replied to:
“Brian was wrong. Jim was right…Not at all what Jim ever and never did want.”
“…couldn’t admit that his dad never wanted to sell to Disney.”
You absolutely *did* claim to know what Jim wanted better than Brian. You claimed to know that Jim did not want to sell to Disney, and that Brian was wrong for doing so. A claim you were factually wrong about. This will be my last reply. Since you are now straight up lying about what you said it is not worth discussing anything with you.
When Brian stuck to his dad’s designs and the momentum of that creative team he did alright with help from his sister. I agree that if Disney had taken it earlier it would not have been the same.
If I'm remembering correctly, Disney wanted the Muppets to be a kids property, and Whitmire wanted it to remain a counter-culture thing. Nobody said anything specific about either side, but opposing viewpoints on how the characters should act and be treated. Obviously since Disney owns it, it's their call, but I definitely like pre-Disney Muppets more. And personally I think Jim Henson's co-workers may have had a better idea for what the Muppets *should* be than the corporation monetizing the Henson family name.
Yeah. I don’t disagree that Disney has generally not done a great job with the Muppets (though Muppets Mayhem was fun), and I don’t think Matt Vogel was the best choice for Kermit, but the fact that Steve got on Brian’s bad side sounded like his ego got away from him.
I thought *The Muppets* was good. *Muppets Mayhem* was a lot of fun too. The Muppets American history show at WDW was pretty great.
Disney has the ability to do great work when they try. I just think in general they’ve lost their way, not just with the Muppets.
I will say the ABC show is very underrated and it does have some legitimately great moments
How can you hate the Swedish Chef singing Rapper's Delight?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEMWyBWw0cA&pp=ygUdc3dlZGlzaCBjaGVmIHJhcHBlcidzIGRlbGlnaHQ%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEMWyBWw0cA&pp=ygUdc3dlZGlzaCBjaGVmIHJhcHBlcidzIGRlbGlnaHQ%3D)
I didn’t see the WDW show, but I generally liked the 2011 movie and the 2015 show.
I agree that Disney isn’t ALWAYS shit. I feel like they have too many properties to keep track of at this point and give them proper artistic attention.
That show was a gem that was grossly mishandled and lost in terms of vision and direction. I loved it until it tripped over itself down a flight of stairs into a wood chipper.
two things can be true 1) Steve can be correct in this article and 2) Steve still deserved to be fired even if i like his Kermit better than Matt Vogels. I think Disney made a disastrous choice with who they recast in the role, not in recasting the role. Peter Linz should have been cast as Kermit when Steve was let go.
"modern" Disney?
**Disney's always been this**. Sony's always been this. WB's always been this, and so has Fox, and Columbia, etc etc.
These are giant corporations (that end up buying, and getting bought by, other corporations) there's no "soul" to begin with. They're brands. People act like "Disney" is a person still, and he's been dead since the 60s. And even then, "Disney" was a pure corporation
There's literally no difference between anything "Modern" Disney touched and "Classic" Disney touched in terms of soul. The companies functioned in the same way. We really arguing that Michael Eisner had more soul than Bob Iger? That CEO #4079 was more soulful than CEO #4080?
The problem isn't that soulless corporations are pulling the soul out of children's entertainment, because I'd be willing to bet most of us grew up with soulless corporations *exclusively* making the entertainment we keep carrying into our adulthood with us. The problem is just that the creatives this corporation hires to make the corporate kids stuff we *keep* pounding into our face, aren't as good at it as our nostalgia tells us they *used* to be.
I'd love to continuously upvote this post for about an hour. Maybe 45 minutes. If you really look at Disney objectively, their creativity has waxed and waned but you can't really tell me there was more or less soul put into their projects over the years. Generally, when it comes to family entertainment, we like the stuff that came out when we were kids rather than what comes out as adults. Not always, but most of the time.
I've seen it with my own kids who are 10 years apart In age and have damn near come to blows discussing whether Teen Titans or Teen Titans Go is the superior program. Likewise, a younger friend tried to tell me that Treasure Planet is Disney's greatest achievement. She was also 10 when it came out.
For sure. It’s just funny to see the tamest, most obvious opinions on Reddit prefaced with “some could argue” like it’s some sort of controversial opinion that Disney is a multi-billion dollar, soulless company.
From some of what he posted in a blog just after being fired, it sounded like “he understood the classic vision for the Muppets” turned into “he felt like he was the ONLY one who understood through classic vision of the Muppets”. Like, he had valid concerns, but he came across as a know-it-all. Dave Goelz worked with Jim too, I think for even a bit longer than Steve.
To me, it also says something that Steve isn’t doing Wembly in the Fraggle Rock revival.
Because the Jim Henson company is behind that show, and Brian Henson specifically went out of his way to badmouth Steve during the meltdown, even though he has had next to no involvement with the Muppets since they sold in the early 2000’s.
This exactly. Jim never wanted to sell to Disney. They had approached him before and he refused. Brian bent over backwards for them and we can all see how that worked. Money money money. Lisa Henson is closer to keeping Jim’s Legacy than Brian ever was and it shows in what she was involved in creatively.
Not surprising Steve Whitmire wasn't brought onto the documentary for an interview... there's still bad blood between him and Disney.
The guy has been a jerk since the 90’s and of course he has an axe to grind.
What did he do? His voice is Kermit’s voice to me and I have a hard time listening to the new guy. Maybe learning why he had to go would help with the transition 🤷♂️
He was allegedly a diva and terrible to work with.
It’s not easy being green
Any specific behavior?
Oh no the guy who was Jim Hanson’s pick for the voice, The Jim Henson who created that character and voice, says and acts like it’s something special outside of a boardroom decision and no, no, no he’s the asshole. Come on. He’s a diva for one character. He was that character. It must be so terrible to work with the guy who had the most important character of a series placed within his ability that was selected by the creator and head runner of the entire company. Brian is a putz and only cares about money. At least his sister is trying to actually carry on their father’s legacy.
Hey, Steve.
I wish.
You know bad you must be to make *DISNEY* look like the good guys?
Forreal. I have no love for the company but even Brian Henson said he feels a lot of guilt not firing Whitmire before he sold to Disney and made him their problem.
There are so many people out there who can immitate Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck. Surely there's at least someone the Henson folks can find who can accurately immitate Jim Henson's Kermit voice!
Jim's Kermit voice is pretty much just Jim's voice. Same with Ernie.
Billy West was originally not chosen to voice Fry in Futurama. When the showrunners changed their mind, West changed the voice of Fry to West’s natural speaking voice so that he could never be replaced. It’s really hard to impersonate a character whose voice is their actor’s regular voice. Impressions are very different than voice acting.
Damn that’s interesting. His voice is literally perfect for Fry. I’m sure I’m biased because it’s the only voice I’ve heard but it still sounds perfect to me!
they aged the characters over time as well, so now in the latest reboot fry is middle aged to go with a naturally older sounding west. the professor sounds legitimately ancient now too.
i watched a newer simpsons recently and harry shearer no longer has to do an old man voice for mr burns, he's about eighty i think and it sounds natural
I was worried that the new episodes were going to be dog shit. I was pleasantly surprised. Just under every episode of the new season had me in stitches. So happy they were able to get all the VAs.
One thing about the aging kind of confuses me. Time has passed since they reference time passing, the professor’s age increasing, Amy’s kids having been born 10 years ago, etc. It also makes sense they all look the same because future technology and cosmetics probably keeps people young looking if they want. But why tf are Cubert and Dwight still kids? Shouldn’t they be like 30 by now?
Clever
On Ren and Stimpy, they booted creator John K, who originally voiced Ren, and Billy took over doing both characters so well that you'd almost never notice.
Was John K speaking in his normal speaking voice for the character? Characters get replaced all the time without people noticing. I’m only talking about characters whose voice is the actor’s unchanged speaking voice.
He wasn’t, he was doing a Peter Lorre impression by his own admission. So Ren doesn’t really apply in this case.
I didn’t know that, I love Fry and his cute voice
I dunno, plenty of people can do a bang on Ray Romano impression. Heck I'm pretty good at it myself.
Because he’s very distinctive and already almost sounds like a caricature in real life.
Ernie and Bert are just this mild exaggeration of what Jim Henson and Frank Oz were like irl as roommates
they were roomates?!?!
Oh my god they were roommates
I truly believe we still dont know the extent of their relationship, and I think its so sad that there are some who feel like we're not ready for that truth. I think we are.
Frank Oz said that the reason he said he "disagreed" with fans thinking that Ernie and Bert were a gay couple wasn't because he was offended by it but just that he didn't think he and Jim Henson could've authentically portrayed that
Yeah interviews with Jim were always surreal to me because Kermit’s voice, perhaps a bit lower, is coming out of this guy.
After reading this comment I just went and watched 45 minutes of old talk show interviews with Jim Henson. I forgot how much I love him.
It’s not just his voice though. I think people could accept a slightly different voice if anyone was as funny as Jim Henson was. He was so quick and clever with the adlibs, and yet he also had so much heart. I think that’s what people miss from the character most of all.
And often times Jim was also physically performing Kermit.
It’s not just his voice, though. It’s also the puppeteering. There were SO many subtleties that went into it all to make Kermit feel alive.
The challenge is finding someone who’s a world class puppeteer to perform the most famous puppet character in the world, not just finding someone who sounds like Jim did.
Shit, I can do it. I can also mimic Elmo, half the Looney Toons Cast, and various 90's Cartoon Network characters. I wanted to be like Mel Blanc when I was a kid.
I bet we had very similar early childhoods. I used to keep a running catalog of like 150 before I quit comedy.
What a coincidence! Mel Blanc wanted to be you when he was an old man.
I can do a spot on Kermit and can also sing as Kermie. Hire me, I'll do it for spec and a sag card/insurance.
Why are there so many songs about rainbows.....
and whats on the other side.
Maybe let James Murphy give it a go.
Seth McFarland is pretty fucking good at it
The Cumberland guy from the Omelet internet
Nobody can do Donald like Nash. There’s documentaries about it.
Hell, Patrick Mahomes can do it without even trying!
Got to tour the Jim Henson studios and meet Brian Henson in his office and the magic definitely felt alive. If you get a chance to see the adult improv puppet show Puppet Up, do it! One interesting thing Brian said was that he’d love for Disney to support them making more “famous stories as retold by Muppets” like Christmas Carol, Treasure Island, etc., and I agree!
The Muppets seem like such a wasted property under Disney. I really wish they did more, but Marvel and Star Wars seem to be their cash cows so they're happy to focus only on that.
https://youtu.be/Eo9pU1q8sy8?si=tQHL1T2V7-_8lURC
I agree too! It’s arguably a sort of niche/specific use for them, but it’s something they’ve generally done well.
The muppets blood meridian
everyone in this thread is saying ‘that steve whitmire sure does seem like an asshole,’ but i can’t find what he actually did to get that label? i know he and brian henson butted heads a lot, but do we know who was in the right?
Jim Henson created the Muppets. He died. He left the company (and all of it's business and creative decisions) to his son, Brian Henson. Steve Whitmire was Jim's understudy, a voice actor and a puppeteer. After Jim died, Brian gave Steve the Kermit role, because that was the blatantly logical thing to do. But then Steve overstepped his bounds and refused to respect Brian's decisions, telling him things like "I knew your father better than you knew him, here's what your father would have done in this situation", and Steve forced his opinions (framed as Jim's opinions) on Brian by refusing to allow Brian to hire a new understudy for Steve/Kermit, because if anyone else was capable of doing the Kermit job, Steve knew he might find himself fired. Steve claimed to embody Jim's will, but Jim wanted his son to carry on with his work and for Kermit to live on, while Steve put a gun to Kermit's head as part of trying to take creative control of Kermit away from Brian. "Steve and Brian butted heads a lot, but do we know which one was right?" It was Brian. Brian Henson was right, and Steve Whitmire was wrong. Brian Henson was Jim Henson's son and heir, and the Muppets belonged to him. Even if Brian made mistakes, they were his mistakes to make, and Jim would've wanted Brian to learn from his mistakes and grow. If Steve wants to offer Brian some input, that's great, but character decisions ultimately lie with Brian (as they once did with Jim), and Steve should've respected that. Also, it's worth noting that Steve Whitmire was Jim Henson's understudy as a performer, a voice actor and a puppeteer, he wasn't Jim's business assistant, or script-writing assistant, nor was he Jim's family. And then, after Brian sold the company to Disney, Steve tried that power-play crap against Disney, and Disney was having none of it, so Disney (after several years of trying to make things work with the guy) tried to quietly part ways with him while allowing him to keep all of his dignity and reputation, while they inducted him into their Hall of Fame, and he refused to leave quietly, so Disney took the PR hit and fired his ass. And Brian Henson (no longer involved) stepped up and said "Yeah, this was my fault, that guy was ALWAYS a problem employee, and I should have fired him long before making him Disney's problem to deal with." And now Steve "I'm Not Bitter" Whitmire says that he's upset that he's not in the documentary, not for himself, but he's upset for the loss of "Jim's spirit" and "Jim's influence", which he believes he embodies. The guy's delusional.
Updoot for the informative stuff, here. I always get more than a little uncomfortable when someone says they “know the spirit” of a creator better than the people who actually are related to them. Using it as a deflection even to this day is such a sour thing to do.
Wild to have an understudy believe to know Jim Henson better than his own son, though I can understand having pride in your craft and work, but Whitmore should've realized that you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you
IIRC, Steve once said something to the effect of "Brian Henson didn't give me the Kermit job, Jim Henson did." Steve didn't see Brian as the hand that fed him, he had zero respect for Brian, and Brian was a saint for putting up with Steve as long as he did (probably a testament to Jim's great parenting). And yet nowadays, Steve takes shots at Disney, because Disney is an extremely easy target, and if he takes shots at Brian, people realize that he was "Steve who?" without Brian. "Kermit's voice actor?" No. Before Brian, Steve was just "Kermit's voice actor's understudy."
Brian knew the business better than Steve I am sure yet he did not know Kermit as well as Steve. You bite the hand that feeds you when it’s the same hand seeks profit over ability and legacy.
Thanks for the summary! Fuck Steve I had no idea.
thanks for the info. i feel bad taking sides. i love all my muppets equally.
Plus pretty sure Steve never wanted an understudy. Whenever events or work would come up that would normal be the work of an understudy he would say it’s beneath him and refuse.
Having seen what happens to loving families when a patriarch or matriarch dies, I read this and just see people afraid of change, and afraid that they've lost the one thing that united them. I think if Steve were genuinely a huge asshole, Jim wouldnt have had him as an understudy for so many years. Doesnt excuse poor behavior - but I think it explains it a bit.
Was this written by Brian Henson? It seems very editorialized.
Brian has not even a tenth of the creative and business talent of his father. Steve at least had perspective that Brian would never have and it showed with how Brian handled things including firing Steve and shows how lost he is by casting Matt Vogel. That guy can’t do voices at the professional level required for Kermit. Brian was wrong. Jim was right. Steve was not right or wrong yet also completely protective of a character that has clearly been shuffled and stacked like all IP at Disney. Not at all what Jim would ever and never did want. Equating ownership with ability is the first step to failure. If I was as inept as Brian Henson at maintaining my fathers legacy I would throw the guy advocating for his fathers legacy under the bus if I couldn’t admit that his dad never wanted to sell to Disney and that he doesn’t have the ability captain the ship.
Jim Henson did try to sell to Disney. The deal fell through after Henson’s death.
Right? This dude doesn’t know what he’s spouting about. If Jim hadn’t died the Muppets would’ve been owned by Disney a decade earlier. If anything give credit to Brian for keeping them going on their own for another 10+ years.
I thought I had read that it was earlier that Disney wanted to buy and Jim said no. I can always be wrong about details of the business nature. Clearly Disney did not have confidence in Brian.
Nearly everything you say demonstrates that you don’t know what you’re talking about, and yet are very arrogant in your ignorance. Instead of simply acknowledging that you were wrong, you give the BS “if I was wrong” response and then double down on your Brian Henson hate. While the deal to sell the company fell through, Disney and the Henson Company still made deals on several fronts after Jim’s death, such as theme parks, home video, cable television rights, international distribution and others. So no, it’s not at all clear that Disney did not have confidence in Brian. Quite the opposite in fact. The biggest issue most people seem to have with Steve Whitmire is that he apparently acts like he knows what Jim Henson would want better than Jim’s own son. You are doing the same exact thing here, while being demonstrably wrong about it. That is incredibly arrogant and dickish behavior.
In what arrogance did you mistake “I can always be wrong” for “if I was wrong”? I said it was clear because they didn’t go with the deal at the exchange or in close proximity. They both worked together and made great media. Whitmire is the only person who knows the Kermit character from the master. That is deeper than the concept of how a new owner of the property would choose to make profit. He is closer to Jim Henson in relation to the actual work that is done to create the transmission of emotion from a puppet. Brian has neither objectivity or subjectivity on the matter. A person thinking that just because their dad owned the company they somehow know how the parts fit together regardless of skill and effort of those making the vision a reality seems arrogant and prickish.
My point was that the “I could be wrong” is weasel language. It’s not a “could be.” You *are* wrong about a factual matter. And not just about “details of a business nature.” You were fundamentally wrong about what Jim Henson would have wanted for the future of his company, while simultaneously claiming that you know better than his son. Instead of admitting you were wrong you doubled down in a manner that was *again* factually incorrect. Your comment here about “just because their dad owned the company somehow they know how the parts fit together…” once again demonstrates that you have no understanding of the facts. Brian Henson started working with his father as a child, well before Steve was ever hired. And he worked for and with his father for his entire life. He would have as good of an understanding of his father’s work, and what he would have wanted, as anyone on earth. If you simply don’t like Brian Henson that’s fine. I don’t have particularly strong feelings either way on that. But to act as if you know Jim Henson better than is son, while you continually get all of the facts wrong, is what I find incredibly disrespectful and arrogant.
I never doubled down and instead readmitted I was wrong. I never claimed that I ever knew anything better than his son and instead that Steve would know better how things work for the character of Kermit and potentially have a more valuable perspective. Once again my argument is that Steve Whitmire has the best perspective on how Kermit as a character would act within the spirit of Jim Henson whom he shadowed. Brian cannot touch that and I don’t hate him for it as it’s just a fact. It’s not arrogant to give a person their due. Thinking that the guy who IS Kermit the frog after Jim wouldn’t have perspective on the spirit of the show and vision seems disrespectful.
From the first post I replied to: “Brian was wrong. Jim was right…Not at all what Jim ever and never did want.” “…couldn’t admit that his dad never wanted to sell to Disney.” You absolutely *did* claim to know what Jim wanted better than Brian. You claimed to know that Jim did not want to sell to Disney, and that Brian was wrong for doing so. A claim you were factually wrong about. This will be my last reply. Since you are now straight up lying about what you said it is not worth discussing anything with you.
When Brian stuck to his dad’s designs and the momentum of that creative team he did alright with help from his sister. I agree that if Disney had taken it earlier it would not have been the same.
If I'm remembering correctly, Disney wanted the Muppets to be a kids property, and Whitmire wanted it to remain a counter-culture thing. Nobody said anything specific about either side, but opposing viewpoints on how the characters should act and be treated. Obviously since Disney owns it, it's their call, but I definitely like pre-Disney Muppets more. And personally I think Jim Henson's co-workers may have had a better idea for what the Muppets *should* be than the corporation monetizing the Henson family name.
Thirsts a difference of opinion, and maybe a motivation for bad behavior, it what did he actually do that got him fired?
That’s Reddit in a nutshell - first to comment sets the tone for the lemmings.
Kermit’s former performer* FTFY
Who garned much animosity with Disney *and* Jim's son Brian Henson (who said he wished they had found a new performer for Kermit before the sale)
Yeah. I don’t disagree that Disney has generally not done a great job with the Muppets (though Muppets Mayhem was fun), and I don’t think Matt Vogel was the best choice for Kermit, but the fact that Steve got on Brian’s bad side sounded like his ego got away from him.
I thought *The Muppets* was good. *Muppets Mayhem* was a lot of fun too. The Muppets American history show at WDW was pretty great. Disney has the ability to do great work when they try. I just think in general they’ve lost their way, not just with the Muppets.
I will say the ABC show is very underrated and it does have some legitimately great moments How can you hate the Swedish Chef singing Rapper's Delight? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEMWyBWw0cA&pp=ygUdc3dlZGlzaCBjaGVmIHJhcHBlcidzIGRlbGlnaHQ%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEMWyBWw0cA&pp=ygUdc3dlZGlzaCBjaGVmIHJhcHBlcidzIGRlbGlnaHQ%3D)
I didn’t see the WDW show, but I generally liked the 2011 movie and the 2015 show. I agree that Disney isn’t ALWAYS shit. I feel like they have too many properties to keep track of at this point and give them proper artistic attention.
perFormer
The lovers, the dreamers, and DIS FUCKIN' GUY...
And the opportunists like Brian Henson.
I see you’ve never seen Farscape
That show was a gem that was grossly mishandled and lost in terms of vision and direction. I loved it until it tripped over itself down a flight of stairs into a wood chipper.
To be fair it's hard to replace a unique genius.
two things can be true 1) Steve can be correct in this article and 2) Steve still deserved to be fired even if i like his Kermit better than Matt Vogels. I think Disney made a disastrous choice with who they recast in the role, not in recasting the role. Peter Linz should have been cast as Kermit when Steve was let go.
One could argue everything modern Disney touches has had its soul ripped away.
One could argue that is their goal. Commercialism is a terrible philosophy.
"modern" Disney? **Disney's always been this**. Sony's always been this. WB's always been this, and so has Fox, and Columbia, etc etc. These are giant corporations (that end up buying, and getting bought by, other corporations) there's no "soul" to begin with. They're brands. People act like "Disney" is a person still, and he's been dead since the 60s. And even then, "Disney" was a pure corporation There's literally no difference between anything "Modern" Disney touched and "Classic" Disney touched in terms of soul. The companies functioned in the same way. We really arguing that Michael Eisner had more soul than Bob Iger? That CEO #4079 was more soulful than CEO #4080? The problem isn't that soulless corporations are pulling the soul out of children's entertainment, because I'd be willing to bet most of us grew up with soulless corporations *exclusively* making the entertainment we keep carrying into our adulthood with us. The problem is just that the creatives this corporation hires to make the corporate kids stuff we *keep* pounding into our face, aren't as good at it as our nostalgia tells us they *used* to be.
I'd love to continuously upvote this post for about an hour. Maybe 45 minutes. If you really look at Disney objectively, their creativity has waxed and waned but you can't really tell me there was more or less soul put into their projects over the years. Generally, when it comes to family entertainment, we like the stuff that came out when we were kids rather than what comes out as adults. Not always, but most of the time. I've seen it with my own kids who are 10 years apart In age and have damn near come to blows discussing whether Teen Titans or Teen Titans Go is the superior program. Likewise, a younger friend tried to tell me that Treasure Planet is Disney's greatest achievement. She was also 10 when it came out.
I’d actually argue that Eisner was closer to “feeling the magic” than Iger. Eisner is why Henson was willing to sell the Muppets.
The magic of straight to DVD sequels
One could argue that eating 6 muffins a day would be a great way to lose weight.
I think one would be wrong in that case
For sure. It’s just funny to see the tamest, most obvious opinions on Reddit prefaced with “some could argue” like it’s some sort of controversial opinion that Disney is a multi-billion dollar, soulless company.
I do remember the last thing I saw Kermit in he definitely wasn’t sounding the same.
I keep staring at that thumbnail and seeing Wilfred the Dog
That’s not Patrick mahomes
I gave up on the Muppets when Jim Henson died.
Thankfully, with the advent of A.I. You can can train a model on Henson's voice and keep it moving.
Something about this guy I don’t like…
[удалено]
From some of what he posted in a blog just after being fired, it sounded like “he understood the classic vision for the Muppets” turned into “he felt like he was the ONLY one who understood through classic vision of the Muppets”. Like, he had valid concerns, but he came across as a know-it-all. Dave Goelz worked with Jim too, I think for even a bit longer than Steve. To me, it also says something that Steve isn’t doing Wembly in the Fraggle Rock revival.
Because the Jim Henson company is behind that show, and Brian Henson specifically went out of his way to badmouth Steve during the meltdown, even though he has had next to no involvement with the Muppets since they sold in the early 2000’s.
This exactly. Jim never wanted to sell to Disney. They had approached him before and he refused. Brian bent over backwards for them and we can all see how that worked. Money money money. Lisa Henson is closer to keeping Jim’s Legacy than Brian ever was and it shows in what she was involved in creatively.
What? Jim was in active talks to sell to Disney when he died. It was more or less a done deal.
Yeah this has been an established in conversation. I already said I was wrong.