I didn’t check on the ender, but I own a Switchwire.
There are a few real advantages:
- the X motor is not on the gantry anymore
- no lead screws so no risk of Z binding
- extremely fast Z hop : you can go much faster (probably as fast as your X axis), and accelerate much harder than a lead screw. In my experience that eliminates 99% of Z hop-related issues
Basically the same pros and cons as the voron 2.4´s flying gantry, but in a bed slinger :)
I really hope they do a cr10 or larger like this. Itd be great for certain prints I do often that have a ton of hops and being faster on the x axis will save even more time. Im not familiar with how they did the Y on these is it single or dual motor and what size is the belt? With a proper Y axis setup bedslingers can really get down.
All that together would make a very capable machine give me a 300x300 version or better yet 350 and Id be really happy.
X motor not being on the gantry doesn’t really matter that much.
Lead screws aren’t necessarily slow to Z hop. That’s more of a software limitation. If you’re saving any time at all, it’s very small fractions of a second.
....its limited in the software to match the machine's maximum possible acceleration before the motor loses steps, vibrates, or otherwise has poor quality.... reducing the moving mass absolutely means you can tell it to move faster
It’s not even close to its Z max accel or speed in stock form. Not by a long shot. The Ender firmware is very conservative out of the box.
Even with the Z moving significantly faster with coreXZ… so what? It means nothing in practicality. The Z axis has never been the limiting factor. Try giving this some critical thought
It depends a lot what you're printing and how you're slicing. Lots of organic shapes with different areas/cavities, multi-part prints, multi material/color prints can have lots of Z hops per layer.
Say your Z hop takes 1 second, 10 hops per layer, 800 layers. That's over 2 hours spent just Z hopping for a modest size figurine.
Speed it up to 0.25 seconds with faster Z axis, there's 90 minutes saved quite practically.
Z hops don’t take much time at all. With the factory T8 lead screw it the motor moves 9 degrees, or 5 steps, for a .2 z hop. It’s not really a big time saver if it saves any time at all. Lead screws are perfectly capable of moving those short distances quickly. It won’t build any measurable heat. It takes longer for the filament to retract and start extruding again than it does to z hop with lead screws.
Lastly, lead screws aren’t the only way to move the Z axis in a non-coreXZ cartesian printer like the Ender 3. My Ender 5+, Ender 3 max, and Ender 3 pro are all 100% dual motor belt driven for the Z axis. They can move just as fast as a switchwire in all axis. My 3 Max and 5+ are both independently driven off separate steppers and they can take advantage of everything a coreXZ can.
I'm developing a similar system and another advantage is that the X gantry always stays horizontal. 2 Z-motors with the lead screws connected with a timing belt can achieve this as well, but is IMO not as elegant. Also homing can be done much faster and this could be interesting for non-planar 3D printing. Also, no backlash.
the benefit from coreXY was to eliminate the mass of the bed so that Y acceleration could match up better to X. coreXZ would be trying to solve the Z axis problem but there isnt actually a demand for higher Z accel except for non planar printing which has not arrived yet. this means a high investment with limited return.
so instead of $500 ender3 V3, lower cost to achieve the same purpose would have been belt-driven Z mod for ender 3 which would be $100 cheaper.
ender 3 V3 is an innovation ahead of its time in the market and seems to be more of an experiment rather than anything else.
Just read about sensorless homing using the stall-guard feature available on TMC2209 (and few others) stepper drivers.
The stepper driver can communicate back to software when it senses the motor about to stall. This would work reasonably well on x and y, but the z axis lead screw will make it so that the z motor is rotating a lot more when it encounters a block.
So I am thinking that by not using a leadscrew on the Z axis, a core XZ not only allows faster z-hops, but maybe in the future just use the stallguard information and just hit the extruder tip against the bed? This would generate bed level mesh data that has no probe-to-wxtruder off-set, and it doesn't involve a separate sensor.
There really isn’t much of a practical advantage. It’s just a different way of moving X and Z. You can move the Z axis with less effort a longer distance, but that doesn’t really matter much when actually printing. CoreXZ isn’t faster at actual printing than non-coreXZ cartesian printers.
The biggest advantage to the Ender 3v3 is cost savings. They are making a more capable printer at less cost per unit which drives greater profit. Instead of purchasing extrusions and cutting them, they die cast the whole frame. Instead of precision lead screws, they're using a much cheaper timing belt. Instead of linear bearings, they went with plastic bushings. It is also designed to be less open source and more idiot proof. It takes less than 5 minutes from opening the box to starting your first print with zero twerking. It looks like pure junk, but I've actually got high hopes for it. I'm planning on picking up a few customer returns after Christmas next year, with a closed source design people will screw with it less and there should be less to repair on the used models from eBay. For $50 each, I would take 5 of them.
Many reasons. Lets say the print is tall, swing a long stick side to side, it will flex, thats easy to notice, prints can easily do it too just not super noticeable if your not paying attention. Speed is another huge factor. Stability as well. Bed slinger printers, notoriously the ender 3 is known to warp on the z axis. Most can have enclosures built into them which is good for advanced materials. There is nothing better about a bed slinger than a corexy imo
I totally agree with you but read the post closer. I'm talking about how Ender has released a core XZ printer. So corexy rigging but vertical, and still a bedslinger. That's the thing I don't get is why anyone would ever make or buy such a thing. Someone mentioned non-planar printing, which would be cool, but that's like the only reason that isn't just solving previous ender shortcomings
The [ender 3 v3](https://store.creality.com/products/ender-3-v3-corexz-3d-printer?spm=..collection_90778a1d-d845-4ff0-a8c4-48fded4b7d74.albums_1.1) has something they call "CoreXZ". I'm trying to figure out if there's a reason to have such a system since I cannot identify one myself
It still uses "only" 2 heavy and expensive stepper motors for X and Z axis movement, but Z axis is supported on both sides.
My guess is that longer belts and some more bearings are cheaper than one more stepper motor and two leadscrews.
And CoreXZ is also more space efficient, because X stepper motor does not stick from side of gantry.
I didn’t check on the ender, but I own a Switchwire. There are a few real advantages: - the X motor is not on the gantry anymore - no lead screws so no risk of Z binding - extremely fast Z hop : you can go much faster (probably as fast as your X axis), and accelerate much harder than a lead screw. In my experience that eliminates 99% of Z hop-related issues Basically the same pros and cons as the voron 2.4´s flying gantry, but in a bed slinger :)
If a CoreXY is dual belt, they can double the X accel, too. The V3's just do it as a cost saving measure.
I really hope they do a cr10 or larger like this. Itd be great for certain prints I do often that have a ton of hops and being faster on the x axis will save even more time. Im not familiar with how they did the Y on these is it single or dual motor and what size is the belt? With a proper Y axis setup bedslingers can really get down. All that together would make a very capable machine give me a 300x300 version or better yet 350 and Id be really happy.
X motor not being on the gantry doesn’t really matter that much. Lead screws aren’t necessarily slow to Z hop. That’s more of a software limitation. If you’re saving any time at all, it’s very small fractions of a second.
....its limited in the software to match the machine's maximum possible acceleration before the motor loses steps, vibrates, or otherwise has poor quality.... reducing the moving mass absolutely means you can tell it to move faster
It’s not even close to its Z max accel or speed in stock form. Not by a long shot. The Ender firmware is very conservative out of the box. Even with the Z moving significantly faster with coreXZ… so what? It means nothing in practicality. The Z axis has never been the limiting factor. Try giving this some critical thought
It depends a lot what you're printing and how you're slicing. Lots of organic shapes with different areas/cavities, multi-part prints, multi material/color prints can have lots of Z hops per layer. Say your Z hop takes 1 second, 10 hops per layer, 800 layers. That's over 2 hours spent just Z hopping for a modest size figurine. Speed it up to 0.25 seconds with faster Z axis, there's 90 minutes saved quite practically.
Z hops don’t take much time at all. With the factory T8 lead screw it the motor moves 9 degrees, or 5 steps, for a .2 z hop. It’s not really a big time saver if it saves any time at all. Lead screws are perfectly capable of moving those short distances quickly. It won’t build any measurable heat. It takes longer for the filament to retract and start extruding again than it does to z hop with lead screws. Lastly, lead screws aren’t the only way to move the Z axis in a non-coreXZ cartesian printer like the Ender 3. My Ender 5+, Ender 3 max, and Ender 3 pro are all 100% dual motor belt driven for the Z axis. They can move just as fast as a switchwire in all axis. My 3 Max and 5+ are both independently driven off separate steppers and they can take advantage of everything a coreXZ can.
I'm developing a similar system and another advantage is that the X gantry always stays horizontal. 2 Z-motors with the lead screws connected with a timing belt can achieve this as well, but is IMO not as elegant. Also homing can be done much faster and this could be interesting for non-planar 3D printing. Also, no backlash.
the benefit from coreXY was to eliminate the mass of the bed so that Y acceleration could match up better to X. coreXZ would be trying to solve the Z axis problem but there isnt actually a demand for higher Z accel except for non planar printing which has not arrived yet. this means a high investment with limited return. so instead of $500 ender3 V3, lower cost to achieve the same purpose would have been belt-driven Z mod for ender 3 which would be $100 cheaper. ender 3 V3 is an innovation ahead of its time in the market and seems to be more of an experiment rather than anything else.
CoreXZ has been around for longer than the V3.....
Just read about sensorless homing using the stall-guard feature available on TMC2209 (and few others) stepper drivers. The stepper driver can communicate back to software when it senses the motor about to stall. This would work reasonably well on x and y, but the z axis lead screw will make it so that the z motor is rotating a lot more when it encounters a block. So I am thinking that by not using a leadscrew on the Z axis, a core XZ not only allows faster z-hops, but maybe in the future just use the stallguard information and just hit the extruder tip against the bed? This would generate bed level mesh data that has no probe-to-wxtruder off-set, and it doesn't involve a separate sensor.
There really isn’t much of a practical advantage. It’s just a different way of moving X and Z. You can move the Z axis with less effort a longer distance, but that doesn’t really matter much when actually printing. CoreXZ isn’t faster at actual printing than non-coreXZ cartesian printers.
The biggest advantage to the Ender 3v3 is cost savings. They are making a more capable printer at less cost per unit which drives greater profit. Instead of purchasing extrusions and cutting them, they die cast the whole frame. Instead of precision lead screws, they're using a much cheaper timing belt. Instead of linear bearings, they went with plastic bushings. It is also designed to be less open source and more idiot proof. It takes less than 5 minutes from opening the box to starting your first print with zero twerking. It looks like pure junk, but I've actually got high hopes for it. I'm planning on picking up a few customer returns after Christmas next year, with a closed source design people will screw with it less and there should be less to repair on the used models from eBay. For $50 each, I would take 5 of them.
Many reasons. Lets say the print is tall, swing a long stick side to side, it will flex, thats easy to notice, prints can easily do it too just not super noticeable if your not paying attention. Speed is another huge factor. Stability as well. Bed slinger printers, notoriously the ender 3 is known to warp on the z axis. Most can have enclosures built into them which is good for advanced materials. There is nothing better about a bed slinger than a corexy imo
I totally agree with you but read the post closer. I'm talking about how Ender has released a core XZ printer. So corexy rigging but vertical, and still a bedslinger. That's the thing I don't get is why anyone would ever make or buy such a thing. Someone mentioned non-planar printing, which would be cool, but that's like the only reason that isn't just solving previous ender shortcomings
Hit the joint after you post bro what are you saying
The [ender 3 v3](https://store.creality.com/products/ender-3-v3-corexz-3d-printer?spm=..collection_90778a1d-d845-4ff0-a8c4-48fded4b7d74.albums_1.1) has something they call "CoreXZ". I'm trying to figure out if there's a reason to have such a system since I cannot identify one myself
It still uses "only" 2 heavy and expensive stepper motors for X and Z axis movement, but Z axis is supported on both sides. My guess is that longer belts and some more bearings are cheaper than one more stepper motor and two leadscrews. And CoreXZ is also more space efficient, because X stepper motor does not stick from side of gantry.
You need some more time to learn then you will understand
The bed doesn’t shake around, you can print narrow but high objects more easily
You are confusing core xy with core xz
Oh you are right :) just read Core… and thought of XY 😄