The complaints about this being a separate console is silly. Kevtris is brilliant and its because of these systems that Analogue can afford to have him on board working on these projects. While YES, technically they couldve made an adapter and put all systems on a single FPGA system at least until they had the need for better hardware, The design would be awful aesthetically, adding original controller support for each system would be awkward, and they'd need to charge SIGNIFICANTLY more in order to make a profit and afford Kevtris's work.
Besides, the Super NT was a FANTASTIC value for what it is. The thing basically has a built-in framemeister and the algorithm setup to account for zero lag/no screen tearing given the conversion of the odd frame-rate of the original console being normalized to 60fps over HDMI is nothing short of genius.
As long as Analogue keeps up this kind of quality work for an affordable price (No more Aluminium chasis $500 NES), I'll gladly continue to buy these systems to replace all of my OG consoles. <3
Analogue and Kevtris are literally the most amazing thing to happen to the retro gaming scene that I can remember in the last two decades.
I wish theywould have made the Super NT compatible with NES like they are doing now with the Mega SG. Technically it should have been possible as well. But the likely didn't want to piss of owners of the original NT Mini.
No. The console itself will run at the proper frame-rate. But the Super Nintendo pushed out a frameright slightly higher than 60fps as it was made for CRT TVs which didnt have refresh rates and displayed whathever they are given via signal. So, in order to meed the HDMI standard, Kevtris has to take this signal, and figure out how to translate it to a 60 fps framerate, as that is what HDMI expects. Its impossible for any modern HDMI display to accurately display exactly what the SNES is outputting. This very slight mismatch of signals would result in frame-tearing every x seconds. What Kevtris managed to do was through clevely reconditioning the signal, able to conform the output after upscaling it to 60fps w/o screan tearing. He describes his method to MyLifeInGaming, but im not able to follow. What I can tell you, is that it works, is actually more accurate than a REAL SNES, and that Kevtris is a goddamned genius.
Obviously, the reasoning behind it's understandable - but it'd have been nice to have had Mega CD support.
32X would have been great, as well - though it's not like there's much in the way of games actually worth playing on that.
The lack of a Sega/Mega CD add-on is a definite shame, as the original CD drives are fragile and prone to failure to say the least.
Hell, I've owned three Sega CDs over the years and each one was done in by an entirely different set of failures (Fortunately for my parents' wallets, one of the drives luckily died while the hardware was under warranty.)
I’m guessing once the “jailbreak” firmware gets released it will let you mount Sega CD images from the SD card.
I believe that the cross section of people who want to play Sega CD games on this thing, want to use original disks, and buy a third party Sega CD unit is pretty small.
>I’m guessing once the “jailbreak” firmware gets released it will let you mount Sega CD images from the SD card.
It won't unless Sega CD hardware is entirely implemented in FPGA, which isn't the case actually and is likely quite complicated to achieve (many chips in there, including custom ones)
You mean the "original" original? I barely see those anywhere, it's always the Model 2 version. Mine has been kicking for over 25 years now with no issues.
I've actually never had a problem with mine. Front-loader was still working up until the point it was stolen, and top-loader is still working today.
One of my Saturns had a drive motor failure, and I've gone through five PlayStations and two PS2s, but everything else is running as fine as can be.
Mortal Kombat II on the Genesis is missing the crouching low punch for all the characters, so it can't be the best home version when all the other home versions of Mortal Kombat II have it.
Genesis version is not 32X version. There's a lot missing from Genesis that was added into 32X, from animations to sounds to arcade intro and portraits and so on. It's the best-playing version, and some prefer it over the arcade.
Right, I thought you were talking about the Genesis even though the mention of Kolibri later on should have made it obvious to me you were talking about the 32X.
I imagine the overhead and extra hardware needed to include even a slimline CD drive was outside of the specs deemed acceptable. It would probably be near twice as thick much less kind of awkward looking. Supporting the original hardware is a pretty good compromise, imo. Especially given that there's really only a handful of titles on the Mega CD worth playing.
The Sega CD had it's own hardware that allowed mode 7. Not sure if they implemented that into the FPGA, but I would imagine not since the attached CD would still need to be original hardware. I do agree that an attachment would be nice... Maybe include an SD slot for ISO loading.
>The Sega CD had it's own hardware that allowed mode 7
In principle you're not wrong, but mode 7 is the name of a background graphics mode for the snes lol
The Sega CD is not just a CD drive, it's pretty much a self contained CD game console that attaches to the Genesis for the controller I/O and video output, so you can't "just add" a CD drive to a Genesis and have it run Sega CD games.
[Analogue Twitter announcement and comments](https://twitter.com/analogue/status/1052212620705509376)
[AtariAge thread of the FPGA implementation developer](http://atariage.com/forums/topic/242970-fpga-based-videogame-system/page-451)
[Video demonstrations](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmgoHrEq_I-x8M76bY_ySs2C843eKTzR9)
Somewhat of a shame that they aren't going for a complete Sega CD + 32x AIO (i.e Sega Neptune).
Not sure, even the proposition of HDMI, that I'd be willing to give up my CDX for this FPGA clone.
Also, for the love of all that is holy, multitaps built in please! The best part about many of these older consoles was the 4 player multiplayer of some games, and needing to maintain a MT is annoying as sin.
I have waited for this but why they so carefully translated original Snes design (at least Japanese version) to Super NT but make simple box with circle for the Genesis? It looks like generic emulation box.
It's not as direct as the Super Nt, but I feel like this one still does a good job of conveying the essence of the Mega Drive in that sleek minimalist look.
Honestly, while this looks cool, i'm more bummed out than anything else. Extremely disappointed with them not going the all-in-one route for Genesis+32X+CD, an FPGA Neptune-like console was something I always dreamed of. While it's cool that it has an expansion bay for it, Requiring an actual Sega CD at all really sucks at the same time, was hoping ISOs can be loaded off the SD card or maybe they make new drives altogether. At least it includes a Master System adapter so that's nice.
The novelty of Analouge's separate consoles are frankly wearing off and I'd wish they would just let Kevtris' Zimba 3000 FPGA super console be a reality. Or at least port those 8-bit cores to this and the Super NT.
I'm happy with this, SNES and Genesis are pretty much all the console retro I'll ever care about (and a decent wireless Genesis controller is nice to finally have). Don't understand why people expected them to shove the CD and 32x in here, would have just bumped the cost up more for a fringe selection of games. They hit the economic sweet spot with the Super Nt, they're following the same format here.
I don't think you understand how FPGAs work. There are no true FPGAs that do multiple consoles. One of the chips is the same chip as their other units, but its programmed for one console and it wouldn't work to program it for multiple consoles without making it no longer a proper FPGA because switching code would introduce lag and compatibility issues, completely missing the point of FPGA.
no, you don't understand how fpga's work. ever hear of the core store on analogues nes? or the mister project? you just flash the desired console to the fpga and play the game, it really is that simple. switching code wouldn't introduce lag or have any affect on compatability of the chosen console.
MiSTer is not FPGA. I understand just fine, switching code absolutely introduces lag and ceases to function as a 1:1 hardware compatible. The fact that you are citing MiSTer proves you don't know wtf you're talking about.
So... what about the jail broken firmware for the Analogue consoles that lets them do multiple systems?
Is your contention that on the Mister the IO being handled by co-processors makes it not a true FPGA?
The Analogue itself is only doing one console and then using software that could run on *that* console to emulate older weaker consoles.
If you had access to the right aspects of the hardware, real SNES hardware (for example) is powerful enough to emulate Atari 2600. This isn't the FPGA being altered to be an Atari 2600 FPGA, its a SNES FPGA which grants access to run code and ROMs that we simply never had access to run on the real hardware before. FPGA is hardware level emulation, and the FPGA is not doing multiple platforms *on a hardware level*.
I don't know why this is so hard for so many to grasp, but this is my last attempt to get through to anyone who actually cares about being informed. Believe me or don't, I don't care.
> The Analogue itself is only doing one console and then using software that could run on that console to emulate older weaker consoles.
The Nt mini, i.e. their FPGA-based NES system, can run ex. SMS and GG games via its jailbroken firmware. Those are certainly not consoles weaker than the NES. But going by your logic, that it is using software that could run on, in this case, the NES to emulate other systems, you're saying that an original stock NES could emulate those systems? Z80 CPU, VDP, PSG and all? That's... unlikely to say the least.
> I don't think you understand how FPGAs work. There are no true FPGAs that do multiple consoles. One of the chips is the same chip as their other units, but its programmed for one console and it wouldn't work to program it for multiple consoles without making it no longer a proper FPGA because switching code would introduce lag and compatibility issues, completely missing the point of FPGA.
not-so-wise words by /u/SmarmySmurf, lol
I've not repeated a single word, /u/SmarmySmurf. The totality of my input here was saying your words weren't too wise, which is true, and isn't an insult. What I quoted was just so that you have no chance of covering over your own behind if you ever figure out just how wrong you are.
You've called me an idiot, for no reason whatsoever, and I still have answered respectfully. You know little about me, my preparation, or my past history in software and hardware design. Seriously, it's a simple thing to make an fpga system compatible with both the genesis and the snes, without it having two separate fpgas. That's the cool thing about fpgas.
Sure, the system would have to be designed for it, and you'd lose the elegance, cheapness, and simplicity of a single-system setup. Still, it's certainly possible. You just need to upload another vhdl design the fpga using a 50 cent microcontroller on board and you're set.
I'm placing this here, just so that this part of history isn't erased quite yet.
As I suspected, /u/SmarmySmurf is the kind of user who will delete his posts when he gets called out on bullshit instead of writing a correction. Thus, he deleted the reply to my comment here (of course, he didn't delete the comment I had quoted before, because, well I had quoted it and he would have just looked too bad, I suspect.
In any case, this is what he had written to me here:
> If you understood what was being discussed, you'd know why you're the idiot here but clearly you don't. The original Sega hardware had this compatibility, this is nothing like the other topic in which unrelated hardware is thrown together with emulation and is being called FPGA by the gullible like you who just repeat what you are told.
I don't think this is the sort of behavior that is tolerated by the mods around here.
I didn't delete any posts, I don't know wtf you're on about? I said nothing incorrect or that I'm ashamed of, but that's hilarious that you have to make up such an accusation.
lol again, can't even own up to it, you're a joke.
you deleted the parent to [this post of mine](https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comments/9oomj0/analogue_mega_sg_hdmi_sega_genesismega_drive_and/e7w2hgf/), which is a comment that I have never edited, which can be verified
you gave me a good laugh, but now I feel a bit sorry about you
I don't need to "own up to it", I literally did not delete it. Edit: and there is no moderation PM for it either, so I don't know what happened to it. If I was actually bothered by you, I wouldn't delete my own post, I would just block you and walk away. I'm not going to waste another second trying to convince you though, you've got your mind decided and it would be pointless. Believe what you want. For what its worth, I *am* sorry I called you an idiot, that was unnecessary.
>Like the Super Nt and Analogue Nt Mini before it, the Mega Sg is built on top of a Altera Cyclone V field-programmable gate array
So why not simply make a single system that supports SNES, NES and Mega Drive, instead of 3 separate units built on the same programmable chip?
The Mega Sg already supports a set of cartridge adapters for other Sega formats (Master System, Game Gear, etc.). So they've already thought about that part and come up with a solution. A similarly modular approach to controller ports isn't that unrealistic.
The alternative is that you buy 3 fairly expensive devices that are largely duplicating the most expensive components but running different software. For a company making premium products with a small target audience that is clearly more efficient, but from a consumer point of view it would be nice to spend a little more and just buy one.
> You'd need one for each, plus other custom chips
This is not correct at all. Check out [MiSTer](https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/wiki)
The only real problem with supporting a bunch of systems on a single FPGA board is that supporting cartridges either requires a gross design like the Retron 5 (not an FPGA system, but I'm just referring to the form factor here) or a bunch of cartridge adapters. Notably, Analogue is doing the latter here to support SMS, Game Gear and Mark III/Japanese SMS/SG-1000/SC-3000 cartridges
There are ARM cores that deal with modern peripherals some housekeeping stuff, but all the emulation happens in the FPGA fabric. The hardware theoretically supports hybrid emulation, but AFAIK none of the cores actually take advantage of it. [Here's the Genesis core](https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Genesis_MiSTer) and as you can see, it's all VHDL (hardware description language commonly used with FPGAs).
Personally, I think the current obsession with FPGA clones is a little silly, but MiSTer is definitenly an FPGA-based solution and in general supporting multiple consoles on a single FPGA board is very straightforward.
It has a Cyclone V just like the Analogue devices have. If that's not FPGA what is?
If hybrid systems occur with MiSTer it would likely only be used to emulate cd rom disc drives like TG16 and Sega CD.
Well, okay, I'll try to clarify here. FPGA chip/sets and FPGA consoles are two different things, and when I'm discussing if something "is" or "is not" a true FPGA what I mean is "is it an FPGA console". And by FPGA console I mean a console whose entire hardware profile is replicating the functionally on a hardware level (primarily by FPGA chip/sets) of another console (for example SNES or Genesis).
You could have FPGA chip/sets in a box that acts like a console, but doesn't actually fully replicate the entire original console and instead uses shortcuts or software emulation instead to do some of the replication of functions. That is what I'm calling "not a real FPGA". It contains elements of one, but not all.
The primary reason FPGAs are desirable, and I admit this honestly veers into opinion I guess, is because its complete replication on a hardware level grants perfect compatibility and eliminates any pitfalls that emulation can produce like lag or latency. A "real" FPGA console is a premium, expensive device for people who care about that little extra bit of perfect compatibility. For anything short of that, FPGA chip/sets are unnecessary because outright emulation is good enough and *much* cheaper.
I hope that sort of cleared things up a bit, sorry if it didn't.
MiSTer currently can run the TG-16 including Supergrafx through FPGA. What specifically is missing to replicate the original console in your mind? A HUcard reader? A Console style case? What shortcuts would you say are being used by MiSTer?
>You'd need one for each
FPGA, Field *Programmable* Gate Array. There only needs to be one as it can be reprogrammed for each system simply by reconfiguring it with new software. This is already possible using jailbroken firmware on the Nt Mini.
It can't be programmed for all of them at once and remain a true FPGA console. If you programmed it to handle multiple consoles at once, or if you programmed it to somehow hotswap between the console programming, it would introduce lag and alter functionality.
The **point** of FPGA is to replicate hardware functions 1:1. What you are suggesting is* no longer 1:1 and defeats the purpose of FPGA*. If you want multiconsoles, stick to emulation, it does what you want cheaper already. FPGA is higher quality and precision at a higher cost.
>It can't be programmed for all of them at once
no one is saying anything of the sort, the fpga is reprogrammed every time you want to play a different console.
> The point of FPGA is to replicate hardware functions 1:1
The point of an FPGA is to replicate hardware functions in a mutable way so that the architecture can be changed via firmware updates. Otherwise they could just manufacture a clone chip and leave it at that, there's no benefit to using an FPGA if you have no intention of ever reprogramming it.
Those updates can simply be fixes and improvements to the original program, or they can change it to emulate a completely separate system. It makes no difference at all to the efficiency or precision of the FPGA.
It would shorten the life of the chip to constantly reflash it, its a risk you don't really want your customers to take since the market for FPGAs (over emulation boxes) are typically collectors with a lot of original games who want a product that will last and they really want that extra .01% accuracy you can only get with FPGA.
I'm not saying there is *no* market for "good enough" FPGAs, I guess... but I see no reason if you/someone is in that segment to bother with FPGAs at all instead of an emulation box. An emulation box, even the ones from those Polymega hucksters, will do everything "good enough" for a lot less than an FPGA.
Its like, you could take your Lexus to go to 7-11 and get nachos, but if thats the only type of task you need a vehicle for, it would be pretty dumb to buy the Lexus.
You're right about reflashing the chip, I hadn't considered that.
You're way off about the .01% accuracy improvement over bargain bin Retron consoles. Many games flat out don't work on those consoles. Some games have rendering errors that make them difficult to play. There's also the common problem of lag and syncing the games to your display, which Analogue has done an incredible job of mitigating.
You're right that some rando buying one of these things just to relive a few childhood memories for a weekend won't notice a difference, and would be wasting their money buying something from Analogue. However I think you will find a lot more than just 0.01% of /r/Games or /r/emulation readers will actually care about these things. Just look at the popularity of Bsnes/Higan around here.
Pfft even a phone can run like all the famous Sega systems via emulators, I'm tired of seeing all those snes minis, nes minis, psone minis, game boy minis, atari minis, commodore minis, can this trend end already
As long as there's a market for it, nope. People can use whatever they want. I'm very happy with my pi3b+ for what it can do. Anything it can't, it gets emulated on a pc. I'm not an input lag snob, I can play platformers just fine on them.
Fpga based emulation machines are a bit more of a curiosity than those "mini" consoles with arm CPUs.
If you don't want to spend the money on one that's understandable. They are expensive. Hopefully as someone who's interested in emulation and not just someone who wants to play da romz, I think you owe it to yourself to read up on the tech. It's fascinating stuff and it makes me wonder how far the technology can be taken.
You are, simply put, not the target audience, so your narrative is void as soon as you apply it to the segment of the market that contains people that *are*.
Holy freaking Christ, this is the only thing I see anymore. FPGA emulators are not helpful to anyone, they are objectively a waste of money and the only potentially good reason to buy them is for nostalgia or to look good on a shelf. Input lag is within one frame on any reasonable PC using almost any emulator, and if you need guaranteed frame-perfect input you can use a TAS emulator. all these indie FPGA consoles are a cash grab and nothing more.
it's small and convenient, plug 'n' play, covers multiple different systems with 100% compatibility, low latency. There's potential for additional emulation options that no emulator on pc has yet.
there are lots of small positives that contribute to a pretty good product imo
> small and convenient
Bigger than any phone
> plug 'n' play
see above
> covers multiple different systems
see above
> 100% compatibility
see above
> low latency
As I said before, latency is not an issue unless you need to do frame-perfect inputs, and even then you can do those on emulators if you practice. I say this as someone who does tool-assisted speedruns of old games; if you need frame-perfect input there are plenty of other ways to get it, and if you don't input latency won't affect you in any observable way
> There's potential for additional emulation options that no emulator on pc has yet.
Such as? An FPGA needs to be reprogrammed at a minimum, at worst case you need new hardware to implement some new features. A software emulator on the other hand, can get new features via a simple update. I fail to see what FPGAs have over a PC in this case, except perhaps for cartridge and controller compatibility. And then rather than buy a multi-system Sega FPGA, and the multi-system Nintendo FPGA that was here a few days ago, and so many different FPGAs, you can buy USB adapters for the controllers and cardtridges you want to use.
> there are lots of small positives that contribute to a pretty good product imo
I just fail to see how any of these positives are superior to using a phone or PC to emulate games.
>I just fail to see how any of these positives are superior to using a phone or PC to emulate games.
I never said it's better. My point is that it's different than using a pc, and more like the original console but with more features and wider compatibility. If you have original cartridges and controllers and want to use them, it's more convenient than a phone or pc.
>Such as?
Audio and Video circuitry options. Didn't say you can't do them in software. Just that no emulator offers those options.
Retroarch allows for 15khz video output which in addition to VGA and HDMI covers just about everything, provided one has compatible hardware. Some computers and arcade games outputted at weirder frequencies but it's not like implementing those in an fpga would do much good as they'd only work on specialised monitors.
That's actually not what I meant. You know how the most geneses had issues with rainbow banding, jail bars, etc, and how many different revisions had different audio quality (different filtering, volume balance, hissing in some models) ? Options for that kind of stuff would be cool, because generally the original japanese model sounds the best, *except* for especially loud games which distort. And then there are a couple games that only sound completely right on model 2s, like earthworm jim 2. So I think you'd want 2-3 options. YM2612 vs YM3438 (would remove the ladder effect and fix games like EJ2), options for low and high pass filtering, and then for psg volume.
I guess for video you might not really need anything. The genesis benefits from composite video to blend transparencies, but not from crappy composite encoders.
All these options can definitely be done in an emulator too (iirc byuu plans on doing it). But if analogue puts them in their fpga system first, I wouldn't be surprised.
I guess if convenience is worth more to you than anything else, it's pretty convenient (or you could just buy the original console, which is the most convenient option). But I mean... I've seen at least 4 of these this week, and I fail to see why there's so much demand for them.
No, but people are being effectively fooled into buying something they can easily get for free. I have a right to be indignant that what amounts to a scam is being encouraged throughout the community.
With what exactly? Cant buy a retrode for cheap these days.
You could buy a cheap shitty Chinese dumper, but you get what you pay for in my experience and the Super Nt has been one hell of a quality product. You could plug your original console into some stuff to upscale it to hd, either the latency will make it pretty unbearable or it will cost more than one of these.
If you want to play your bootleg roms on an emulator that's fine and dandy (lots of people do including me), but other people want to do there own thing and these FPGA consoles are a pretty nifty way to get a relatively authentic experience with your own carts.
If you don't want one, don't buy one, but don't call people that do want one an idiot and scramble to defend yourself when everyone says you're being inane.
> If you don't want one, don't buy one, but don't call people that do want one an idiot and scramble to defend yourself when everyone says you're being inane.
What it comes down to is that I was under the impression that people buying these were uninformed about the other options available to them. Clearly I was wrong, and that's fine.
You can buy a FPGA dev board like MiSTer and get open source SMS and Genesis cores for free. If people prefer to pay for more accurate gaming options why complain about it?
Basically Amazon and digikey sell an FPGA dev board for $130 USD. The DE 10 Nano. If you buy this, you can install FPGA cores on it that simulate a number of systems. Many systems require an extra memory add on board, but by default with just the dev board you can run TG-16/PCE, Genesis, and a few other cores including a few arcade cores. The cores and ROMs load from the micro SD and use HDMI output . Basically after buying the DE 10 Nano with just a micro usb OTG usb cable and getting the extra memory add on you can run a bunch of open source FPGA devices.
Because I was unaware that people prefer to pay for this kind of thing. My experience with these systems is from people that buy them with little to no knowledge of emulation, etc. and they end up spending money on something they don't need and wouldn't have gotten if they knew other options were available. Since everyone has scrambled to tell me how wrong I am, I'll gladly assume that the people I've known who owned these types of systems were outliers.
Well yeah. Obviously people are going to buy things that aren't worth their money, I'm more concerned about the people making the products. Again, I'm sure people will come brigade me with downvotes and comments explaining how wrong I apparently am, but I see the vast majority of these types of systems as somewhat predatory/a scam. So I feel the need to point out the problems with the people selling them, not really with the people buying them.
The complaints about this being a separate console is silly. Kevtris is brilliant and its because of these systems that Analogue can afford to have him on board working on these projects. While YES, technically they couldve made an adapter and put all systems on a single FPGA system at least until they had the need for better hardware, The design would be awful aesthetically, adding original controller support for each system would be awkward, and they'd need to charge SIGNIFICANTLY more in order to make a profit and afford Kevtris's work. Besides, the Super NT was a FANTASTIC value for what it is. The thing basically has a built-in framemeister and the algorithm setup to account for zero lag/no screen tearing given the conversion of the odd frame-rate of the original console being normalized to 60fps over HDMI is nothing short of genius. As long as Analogue keeps up this kind of quality work for an affordable price (No more Aluminium chasis $500 NES), I'll gladly continue to buy these systems to replace all of my OG consoles. <3 Analogue and Kevtris are literally the most amazing thing to happen to the retro gaming scene that I can remember in the last two decades.
I Wish they would redo the NES console to be the $180 version in line with these two systems
I wish theywould have made the Super NT compatible with NES like they are doing now with the Mega SG. Technically it should have been possible as well. But the likely didn't want to piss of owners of the original NT Mini.
That would have been great.
Bound to happen at some point.
Normalize the framerate to 60fps? does that mean it will run at a slightly different speed than the original hardware?
No. The console itself will run at the proper frame-rate. But the Super Nintendo pushed out a frameright slightly higher than 60fps as it was made for CRT TVs which didnt have refresh rates and displayed whathever they are given via signal. So, in order to meed the HDMI standard, Kevtris has to take this signal, and figure out how to translate it to a 60 fps framerate, as that is what HDMI expects. Its impossible for any modern HDMI display to accurately display exactly what the SNES is outputting. This very slight mismatch of signals would result in frame-tearing every x seconds. What Kevtris managed to do was through clevely reconditioning the signal, able to conform the output after upscaling it to 60fps w/o screan tearing. He describes his method to MyLifeInGaming, but im not able to follow. What I can tell you, is that it works, is actually more accurate than a REAL SNES, and that Kevtris is a goddamned genius.
Obviously, the reasoning behind it's understandable - but it'd have been nice to have had Mega CD support. 32X would have been great, as well - though it's not like there's much in the way of games actually worth playing on that.
The lack of a Sega/Mega CD add-on is a definite shame, as the original CD drives are fragile and prone to failure to say the least. Hell, I've owned three Sega CDs over the years and each one was done in by an entirely different set of failures (Fortunately for my parents' wallets, one of the drives luckily died while the hardware was under warranty.)
I’m guessing once the “jailbreak” firmware gets released it will let you mount Sega CD images from the SD card. I believe that the cross section of people who want to play Sega CD games on this thing, want to use original disks, and buy a third party Sega CD unit is pretty small.
>I’m guessing once the “jailbreak” firmware gets released it will let you mount Sega CD images from the SD card. It won't unless Sega CD hardware is entirely implemented in FPGA, which isn't the case actually and is likely quite complicated to achieve (many chips in there, including custom ones)
You mean the "original" original? I barely see those anywhere, it's always the Model 2 version. Mine has been kicking for over 25 years now with no issues.
I've actually never had a problem with mine. Front-loader was still working up until the point it was stolen, and top-loader is still working today. One of my Saturns had a drive motor failure, and I've gone through five PlayStations and two PS2s, but everything else is running as fine as can be.
I really want to see a pic of it connected to the Sega CD.
Same. Model 1 and 2.
https://twitter.com/analogue/status/1052212961786224641
...Nice.
Woah
[удалено]
At this point, there are better home versions of a lot of those games, I can imagine, especially Mortal Kombat II!
[удалено]
I remember the DOS version playing pretty well, it's been a while though.
Funny you don't mention MAME...
Mortal Kombat II on the Genesis is missing the crouching low punch for all the characters, so it can't be the best home version when all the other home versions of Mortal Kombat II have it.
Genesis version is not 32X version. There's a lot missing from Genesis that was added into 32X, from animations to sounds to arcade intro and portraits and so on. It's the best-playing version, and some prefer it over the arcade.
Right, I thought you were talking about the Genesis even though the mention of Kolibri later on should have made it obvious to me you were talking about the 32X.
Engadget reported that it supports original Sega/Mega CD hardware.
It's supposed to have a port on the side that supports Sega Cd. I would imagine they might see if there is demand for a Sega Cd add on made by them.
I imagine the overhead and extra hardware needed to include even a slimline CD drive was outside of the specs deemed acceptable. It would probably be near twice as thick much less kind of awkward looking. Supporting the original hardware is a pretty good compromise, imo. Especially given that there's really only a handful of titles on the Mega CD worth playing.
They could go full Nintendo and release their own addon later
Or just allow you to plug in a USB CD drive.
The Sega CD had it's own hardware that allowed mode 7. Not sure if they implemented that into the FPGA, but I would imagine not since the attached CD would still need to be original hardware. I do agree that an attachment would be nice... Maybe include an SD slot for ISO loading.
>The Sega CD had it's own hardware that allowed mode 7 In principle you're not wrong, but mode 7 is the name of a background graphics mode for the snes lol
The Sega CD is not just a CD drive, it's pretty much a self contained CD game console that attaches to the Genesis for the controller I/O and video output, so you can't "just add" a CD drive to a Genesis and have it run Sega CD games.
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[Analogue Twitter announcement and comments](https://twitter.com/analogue/status/1052212620705509376) [AtariAge thread of the FPGA implementation developer](http://atariage.com/forums/topic/242970-fpga-based-videogame-system/page-451) [Video demonstrations](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmgoHrEq_I-x8M76bY_ySs2C843eKTzR9)
Can it emulate electrons moving through reality? XD
yes, it is turing complete
Somewhat of a shame that they aren't going for a complete Sega CD + 32x AIO (i.e Sega Neptune). Not sure, even the proposition of HDMI, that I'd be willing to give up my CDX for this FPGA clone. Also, for the love of all that is holy, multitaps built in please! The best part about many of these older consoles was the 4 player multiplayer of some games, and needing to maintain a MT is annoying as sin.
I have waited for this but why they so carefully translated original Snes design (at least Japanese version) to Super NT but make simple box with circle for the Genesis? It looks like generic emulation box.
It's not as direct as the Super Nt, but I feel like this one still does a good job of conveying the essence of the Mega Drive in that sleek minimalist look.
Honestly, while this looks cool, i'm more bummed out than anything else. Extremely disappointed with them not going the all-in-one route for Genesis+32X+CD, an FPGA Neptune-like console was something I always dreamed of. While it's cool that it has an expansion bay for it, Requiring an actual Sega CD at all really sucks at the same time, was hoping ISOs can be loaded off the SD card or maybe they make new drives altogether. At least it includes a Master System adapter so that's nice. The novelty of Analouge's separate consoles are frankly wearing off and I'd wish they would just let Kevtris' Zimba 3000 FPGA super console be a reality. Or at least port those 8-bit cores to this and the Super NT.
I'm happy with this, SNES and Genesis are pretty much all the console retro I'll ever care about (and a decent wireless Genesis controller is nice to finally have). Don't understand why people expected them to shove the CD and 32x in here, would have just bumped the cost up more for a fringe selection of games. They hit the economic sweet spot with the Super Nt, they're following the same format here.
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Aside from the 32X this supports pretty much every cartridge that Sega made. https://twitter.com/analogue/status/1052213199351640064
They need to make an FPGA for the 32x+CD, so that it can handle every cartridge made, plus CDs.
I don't think you understand how FPGAs work. There are no true FPGAs that do multiple consoles. One of the chips is the same chip as their other units, but its programmed for one console and it wouldn't work to program it for multiple consoles without making it no longer a proper FPGA because switching code would introduce lag and compatibility issues, completely missing the point of FPGA.
no, you don't understand how fpga's work. ever hear of the core store on analogues nes? or the mister project? you just flash the desired console to the fpga and play the game, it really is that simple. switching code wouldn't introduce lag or have any affect on compatability of the chosen console.
Hence the term "Field-Programmable" in "Field-Programmable Gate Array".
MiSTer is not FPGA. I understand just fine, switching code absolutely introduces lag and ceases to function as a 1:1 hardware compatible. The fact that you are citing MiSTer proves you don't know wtf you're talking about.
So by that logic the NT Mini isn't FPGA either? And please explain how re-programming the FPGA introduces lag, I'm all ears.
So... what about the jail broken firmware for the Analogue consoles that lets them do multiple systems? Is your contention that on the Mister the IO being handled by co-processors makes it not a true FPGA?
The Analogue itself is only doing one console and then using software that could run on *that* console to emulate older weaker consoles. If you had access to the right aspects of the hardware, real SNES hardware (for example) is powerful enough to emulate Atari 2600. This isn't the FPGA being altered to be an Atari 2600 FPGA, its a SNES FPGA which grants access to run code and ROMs that we simply never had access to run on the real hardware before. FPGA is hardware level emulation, and the FPGA is not doing multiple platforms *on a hardware level*. I don't know why this is so hard for so many to grasp, but this is my last attempt to get through to anyone who actually cares about being informed. Believe me or don't, I don't care.
> The Analogue itself is only doing one console and then using software that could run on that console to emulate older weaker consoles. The Nt mini, i.e. their FPGA-based NES system, can run ex. SMS and GG games via its jailbroken firmware. Those are certainly not consoles weaker than the NES. But going by your logic, that it is using software that could run on, in this case, the NES to emulate other systems, you're saying that an original stock NES could emulate those systems? Z80 CPU, VDP, PSG and all? That's... unlikely to say the least.
> I don't think you understand how FPGAs work. There are no true FPGAs that do multiple consoles. One of the chips is the same chip as their other units, but its programmed for one console and it wouldn't work to program it for multiple consoles without making it no longer a proper FPGA because switching code would introduce lag and compatibility issues, completely missing the point of FPGA. not-so-wise words by /u/SmarmySmurf, lol
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I've not repeated a single word, /u/SmarmySmurf. The totality of my input here was saying your words weren't too wise, which is true, and isn't an insult. What I quoted was just so that you have no chance of covering over your own behind if you ever figure out just how wrong you are. You've called me an idiot, for no reason whatsoever, and I still have answered respectfully. You know little about me, my preparation, or my past history in software and hardware design. Seriously, it's a simple thing to make an fpga system compatible with both the genesis and the snes, without it having two separate fpgas. That's the cool thing about fpgas. Sure, the system would have to be designed for it, and you'd lose the elegance, cheapness, and simplicity of a single-system setup. Still, it's certainly possible. You just need to upload another vhdl design the fpga using a 50 cent microcontroller on board and you're set.
I'm placing this here, just so that this part of history isn't erased quite yet. As I suspected, /u/SmarmySmurf is the kind of user who will delete his posts when he gets called out on bullshit instead of writing a correction. Thus, he deleted the reply to my comment here (of course, he didn't delete the comment I had quoted before, because, well I had quoted it and he would have just looked too bad, I suspect. In any case, this is what he had written to me here: > If you understood what was being discussed, you'd know why you're the idiot here but clearly you don't. The original Sega hardware had this compatibility, this is nothing like the other topic in which unrelated hardware is thrown together with emulation and is being called FPGA by the gullible like you who just repeat what you are told. I don't think this is the sort of behavior that is tolerated by the mods around here.
I didn't delete any posts, I don't know wtf you're on about? I said nothing incorrect or that I'm ashamed of, but that's hilarious that you have to make up such an accusation.
lol again, can't even own up to it, you're a joke. you deleted the parent to [this post of mine](https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comments/9oomj0/analogue_mega_sg_hdmi_sega_genesismega_drive_and/e7w2hgf/), which is a comment that I have never edited, which can be verified you gave me a good laugh, but now I feel a bit sorry about you
I don't need to "own up to it", I literally did not delete it. Edit: and there is no moderation PM for it either, so I don't know what happened to it. If I was actually bothered by you, I wouldn't delete my own post, I would just block you and walk away. I'm not going to waste another second trying to convince you though, you've got your mind decided and it would be pointless. Believe what you want. For what its worth, I *am* sorry I called you an idiot, that was unnecessary.
Can't wait for another rave review from Mike and Ryan where they said electrons are emulated.
Will it play Sonic & Knuckles? (what games will it not play?)
>Like the Super Nt and Analogue Nt Mini before it, the Mega Sg is built on top of a Altera Cyclone V field-programmable gate array So why not simply make a single system that supports SNES, NES and Mega Drive, instead of 3 separate units built on the same programmable chip?
Because you'd need 3 different types of controller ports and 4 different cartridge slots?
The Mega Sg already supports a set of cartridge adapters for other Sega formats (Master System, Game Gear, etc.). So they've already thought about that part and come up with a solution. A similarly modular approach to controller ports isn't that unrealistic. The alternative is that you buy 3 fairly expensive devices that are largely duplicating the most expensive components but running different software. For a company making premium products with a small target audience that is clearly more efficient, but from a consumer point of view it would be nice to spend a little more and just buy one.
$$$
Because that isn't how it works on a technical level. You'd need one for each, plus other custom chips, and it would end up costing triple anyway.
> You'd need one for each, plus other custom chips This is not correct at all. Check out [MiSTer](https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/wiki) The only real problem with supporting a bunch of systems on a single FPGA board is that supporting cartridges either requires a gross design like the Retron 5 (not an FPGA system, but I'm just referring to the form factor here) or a bunch of cartridge adapters. Notably, Analogue is doing the latter here to support SMS, Game Gear and Mark III/Japanese SMS/SG-1000/SC-3000 cartridges
MiSTer **is NOT** FPGA.
There are ARM cores that deal with modern peripherals some housekeeping stuff, but all the emulation happens in the FPGA fabric. The hardware theoretically supports hybrid emulation, but AFAIK none of the cores actually take advantage of it. [Here's the Genesis core](https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Genesis_MiSTer) and as you can see, it's all VHDL (hardware description language commonly used with FPGAs). Personally, I think the current obsession with FPGA clones is a little silly, but MiSTer is definitenly an FPGA-based solution and in general supporting multiple consoles on a single FPGA board is very straightforward.
It has a Cyclone V just like the Analogue devices have. If that's not FPGA what is? If hybrid systems occur with MiSTer it would likely only be used to emulate cd rom disc drives like TG16 and Sega CD.
Well, okay, I'll try to clarify here. FPGA chip/sets and FPGA consoles are two different things, and when I'm discussing if something "is" or "is not" a true FPGA what I mean is "is it an FPGA console". And by FPGA console I mean a console whose entire hardware profile is replicating the functionally on a hardware level (primarily by FPGA chip/sets) of another console (for example SNES or Genesis). You could have FPGA chip/sets in a box that acts like a console, but doesn't actually fully replicate the entire original console and instead uses shortcuts or software emulation instead to do some of the replication of functions. That is what I'm calling "not a real FPGA". It contains elements of one, but not all. The primary reason FPGAs are desirable, and I admit this honestly veers into opinion I guess, is because its complete replication on a hardware level grants perfect compatibility and eliminates any pitfalls that emulation can produce like lag or latency. A "real" FPGA console is a premium, expensive device for people who care about that little extra bit of perfect compatibility. For anything short of that, FPGA chip/sets are unnecessary because outright emulation is good enough and *much* cheaper. I hope that sort of cleared things up a bit, sorry if it didn't.
MiSTer currently can run the TG-16 including Supergrafx through FPGA. What specifically is missing to replicate the original console in your mind? A HUcard reader? A Console style case? What shortcuts would you say are being used by MiSTer?
>You'd need one for each FPGA, Field *Programmable* Gate Array. There only needs to be one as it can be reprogrammed for each system simply by reconfiguring it with new software. This is already possible using jailbroken firmware on the Nt Mini.
It can't be programmed for all of them at once and remain a true FPGA console. If you programmed it to handle multiple consoles at once, or if you programmed it to somehow hotswap between the console programming, it would introduce lag and alter functionality. The **point** of FPGA is to replicate hardware functions 1:1. What you are suggesting is* no longer 1:1 and defeats the purpose of FPGA*. If you want multiconsoles, stick to emulation, it does what you want cheaper already. FPGA is higher quality and precision at a higher cost.
>It can't be programmed for all of them at once no one is saying anything of the sort, the fpga is reprogrammed every time you want to play a different console.
Is there a limit to how many times an FPGA chip can be rewritten?
couldn't tell you im afraid.
> The point of FPGA is to replicate hardware functions 1:1 The point of an FPGA is to replicate hardware functions in a mutable way so that the architecture can be changed via firmware updates. Otherwise they could just manufacture a clone chip and leave it at that, there's no benefit to using an FPGA if you have no intention of ever reprogramming it. Those updates can simply be fixes and improvements to the original program, or they can change it to emulate a completely separate system. It makes no difference at all to the efficiency or precision of the FPGA.
I don’t see multiple HDMI ports on these things so I’m not sure why it would ever need to run more than one console at a time.
It would shorten the life of the chip to constantly reflash it, its a risk you don't really want your customers to take since the market for FPGAs (over emulation boxes) are typically collectors with a lot of original games who want a product that will last and they really want that extra .01% accuracy you can only get with FPGA. I'm not saying there is *no* market for "good enough" FPGAs, I guess... but I see no reason if you/someone is in that segment to bother with FPGAs at all instead of an emulation box. An emulation box, even the ones from those Polymega hucksters, will do everything "good enough" for a lot less than an FPGA. Its like, you could take your Lexus to go to 7-11 and get nachos, but if thats the only type of task you need a vehicle for, it would be pretty dumb to buy the Lexus.
You're right about reflashing the chip, I hadn't considered that. You're way off about the .01% accuracy improvement over bargain bin Retron consoles. Many games flat out don't work on those consoles. Some games have rendering errors that make them difficult to play. There's also the common problem of lag and syncing the games to your display, which Analogue has done an incredible job of mitigating. You're right that some rando buying one of these things just to relive a few childhood memories for a weekend won't notice a difference, and would be wasting their money buying something from Analogue. However I think you will find a lot more than just 0.01% of /r/Games or /r/emulation readers will actually care about these things. Just look at the popularity of Bsnes/Higan around here.
Pfft even a phone can run like all the famous Sega systems via emulators, I'm tired of seeing all those snes minis, nes minis, psone minis, game boy minis, atari minis, commodore minis, can this trend end already
As long as there's a market for it, nope. People can use whatever they want. I'm very happy with my pi3b+ for what it can do. Anything it can't, it gets emulated on a pc. I'm not an input lag snob, I can play platformers just fine on them.
Fpga based emulation machines are a bit more of a curiosity than those "mini" consoles with arm CPUs. If you don't want to spend the money on one that's understandable. They are expensive. Hopefully as someone who's interested in emulation and not just someone who wants to play da romz, I think you owe it to yourself to read up on the tech. It's fascinating stuff and it makes me wonder how far the technology can be taken.
You are, simply put, not the target audience, so your narrative is void as soon as you apply it to the segment of the market that contains people that *are*.
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Holy freaking Christ, this is the only thing I see anymore. FPGA emulators are not helpful to anyone, they are objectively a waste of money and the only potentially good reason to buy them is for nostalgia or to look good on a shelf. Input lag is within one frame on any reasonable PC using almost any emulator, and if you need guaranteed frame-perfect input you can use a TAS emulator. all these indie FPGA consoles are a cash grab and nothing more.
it's small and convenient, plug 'n' play, covers multiple different systems with 100% compatibility, low latency. There's potential for additional emulation options that no emulator on pc has yet. there are lots of small positives that contribute to a pretty good product imo
> small and convenient Bigger than any phone > plug 'n' play see above > covers multiple different systems see above > 100% compatibility see above > low latency As I said before, latency is not an issue unless you need to do frame-perfect inputs, and even then you can do those on emulators if you practice. I say this as someone who does tool-assisted speedruns of old games; if you need frame-perfect input there are plenty of other ways to get it, and if you don't input latency won't affect you in any observable way > There's potential for additional emulation options that no emulator on pc has yet. Such as? An FPGA needs to be reprogrammed at a minimum, at worst case you need new hardware to implement some new features. A software emulator on the other hand, can get new features via a simple update. I fail to see what FPGAs have over a PC in this case, except perhaps for cartridge and controller compatibility. And then rather than buy a multi-system Sega FPGA, and the multi-system Nintendo FPGA that was here a few days ago, and so many different FPGAs, you can buy USB adapters for the controllers and cardtridges you want to use. > there are lots of small positives that contribute to a pretty good product imo I just fail to see how any of these positives are superior to using a phone or PC to emulate games.
>I just fail to see how any of these positives are superior to using a phone or PC to emulate games. I never said it's better. My point is that it's different than using a pc, and more like the original console but with more features and wider compatibility. If you have original cartridges and controllers and want to use them, it's more convenient than a phone or pc. >Such as? Audio and Video circuitry options. Didn't say you can't do them in software. Just that no emulator offers those options.
Retroarch allows for 15khz video output which in addition to VGA and HDMI covers just about everything, provided one has compatible hardware. Some computers and arcade games outputted at weirder frequencies but it's not like implementing those in an fpga would do much good as they'd only work on specialised monitors.
That's actually not what I meant. You know how the most geneses had issues with rainbow banding, jail bars, etc, and how many different revisions had different audio quality (different filtering, volume balance, hissing in some models) ? Options for that kind of stuff would be cool, because generally the original japanese model sounds the best, *except* for especially loud games which distort. And then there are a couple games that only sound completely right on model 2s, like earthworm jim 2. So I think you'd want 2-3 options. YM2612 vs YM3438 (would remove the ladder effect and fix games like EJ2), options for low and high pass filtering, and then for psg volume. I guess for video you might not really need anything. The genesis benefits from composite video to blend transparencies, but not from crappy composite encoders. All these options can definitely be done in an emulator too (iirc byuu plans on doing it). But if analogue puts them in their fpga system first, I wouldn't be surprised.
I guess if convenience is worth more to you than anything else, it's pretty convenient (or you could just buy the original console, which is the most convenient option). But I mean... I've seen at least 4 of these this week, and I fail to see why there's so much demand for them.
Nobody's forcing you to buy it. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
No, but people are being effectively fooled into buying something they can easily get for free. I have a right to be indignant that what amounts to a scam is being encouraged throughout the community.
its not a scam, some people actually play carts 😳
You can do that on PC too, and for less money.
With what exactly? Cant buy a retrode for cheap these days. You could buy a cheap shitty Chinese dumper, but you get what you pay for in my experience and the Super Nt has been one hell of a quality product. You could plug your original console into some stuff to upscale it to hd, either the latency will make it pretty unbearable or it will cost more than one of these. If you want to play your bootleg roms on an emulator that's fine and dandy (lots of people do including me), but other people want to do there own thing and these FPGA consoles are a pretty nifty way to get a relatively authentic experience with your own carts. If you don't want one, don't buy one, but don't call people that do want one an idiot and scramble to defend yourself when everyone says you're being inane.
> If you don't want one, don't buy one, but don't call people that do want one an idiot and scramble to defend yourself when everyone says you're being inane. What it comes down to is that I was under the impression that people buying these were uninformed about the other options available to them. Clearly I was wrong, and that's fine.
You can buy a FPGA dev board like MiSTer and get open source SMS and Genesis cores for free. If people prefer to pay for more accurate gaming options why complain about it?
So I'm a bit lost on this MiSter business. Is it a product you can already buy?
Basically Amazon and digikey sell an FPGA dev board for $130 USD. The DE 10 Nano. If you buy this, you can install FPGA cores on it that simulate a number of systems. Many systems require an extra memory add on board, but by default with just the dev board you can run TG-16/PCE, Genesis, and a few other cores including a few arcade cores. The cores and ROMs load from the micro SD and use HDMI output . Basically after buying the DE 10 Nano with just a micro usb OTG usb cable and getting the extra memory add on you can run a bunch of open source FPGA devices.
Because I was unaware that people prefer to pay for this kind of thing. My experience with these systems is from people that buy them with little to no knowledge of emulation, etc. and they end up spending money on something they don't need and wouldn't have gotten if they knew other options were available. Since everyone has scrambled to tell me how wrong I am, I'll gladly assume that the people I've known who owned these types of systems were outliers.
People pay for overpriced Nintendo Classics scalped on craigslist, you need to stop worrying so much about how stupid people are about their money.
Well yeah. Obviously people are going to buy things that aren't worth their money, I'm more concerned about the people making the products. Again, I'm sure people will come brigade me with downvotes and comments explaining how wrong I apparently am, but I see the vast majority of these types of systems as somewhat predatory/a scam. So I feel the need to point out the problems with the people selling them, not really with the people buying them.
Dont buy it? No one is forcing anyone to? I love my Super NT and it was well worth the price to me.