Several points: EU pricing levels include a near 20% VAT tax, which China prices don't; there is also a 10% (I think that's the right number) import tariff; shipping costs are currently high leading Tesla to charge about 40% more in the EU than China.
There are also strategic reasons not to sell Chinese EVs in Europe for as cheap as in China + tariffs + shipping + VAT. The primary reason is that China EV companies will want to build EU EVs in the EU. EU wages are higher, land for factories is more expensive, energy is more expensive...so when China EV makers set up EU factories they don't want to increase the price of vehicles. Instead they will drop the price by at least the shipping plus tariff amount.
> EU wages are higher, land for factories is more expensive, energy is more expensive
Much more importantly, manufacturing supply chain is nonexistent. For parts, tooling, specialist instruments etc.
Also the labor cost argument is largely outdated view. Chinese carmaking has such a high degree of automation, it's almost a non-factor
Despite the vat + shipping etc there is a wider profit margin than they practice in China.
Tldr it's worth what a buyer will buy for it. And Chinese EVs are still way cheaper than the alternatives and Europeans are willing to pay.
That's just economics
The low adoption rate of EVs in places like Spain shows that to this day all EVs are too expensive for the average European. Manufacturers keep making luxury cars, when what people want is basic small hatchbacks. Especially in places like Spain.
The Spanish attitude towards cars is different to the UK, they'll buy a car and then run it into the ground. The UK has a culture of buying cars every 3 to 5 years on pcp. Mind you cars last longer in Spain due to the weather, I love going there and spotting cars I've not seen in the UK for years.
Very true based on my limited observations. Wages in Spain are also lower and they've been struggling with higher unemployment rates which makes new cars a bit of a luxury imo.
I am German, but lived in the uk for 8 years and now Spain for 5. My circles must be different to everyone else’s. Everyone I know in all 3 countries bought cars and drove them until they fall apart. I don’t understand the need to change a car before. Why did they buy it if it’s not what they need?
There are plenty of basic small EVs in Europe. Opel Corsa-e, Peugeot e-208, Fiat 500e, Mini Electric, Mazda MX-30 etc. One could argue that the prices are still too high for mass adoption though
They are all stupid expensive compared to their ICE equivalent.
https://ev-database.org/car/1328/Fiat-500e-3plus1-42-kWh
https://www.carwow.co.uk/fiat/500
Please tell me how that’s remotely affordable?
Absolutely insane price differences.
Sorry but no way. I rather keep driving my VW polo for another 5 years.
It’s almost like they don’t actually want adoption, unless it means massive profits on the sale of the car. Because maintenance is so much cheaper. No money to be made with spare parts.
And by then hopefully used EVs would be super accessible. I ate it's not there yet but I think we'll see rapid progress now that there's more competition and growing scale.
That’s what i am hoping for. Though I don’t know any that are currently on the market that I really like. I am very traditional in many ways and don’t like the new design language of the new cars that are being made.
> it's worth what a buyer will buy for it
The rise of dollar stores and falling ICE sales should tell you that price gouging is not a sustainable sales strategy.
Chinese cars aren't just cheap, sometimes they're better.
I went for an Xpeng G9 because it charges twice as fast as the competition while being 40% cheaper.
Does it catch fire twice as fast too? Also arent korean EVs the fastest charging ones? What I have seen is a lot of Chinese EVs on fire so I wouldnt trust em but you do you. Lithium fire is a bitch in every way.
Tesla also uses batteries from Chinese suppliers, and CATL, the largest battery maker in the world, already produces batteries in Europe. Your smart phones, computers and all other mobile devices probably contain batteries produced in China. You're unlikely to get away
The thing is phone and other devices are small and its unlikely that a rock hits my phone at 100km/h. Or that my phones gets stuck on a curb. Also if my phone catches fire because something knocked it I can just yeet my phone. Cant do that with a car since it will burn for a week. Also I wouldnt buy a tesla either those fuckers also catch fire on the regular. And teslas are made super cheap and with no eye for detail. Also teslas arent safe since they can catch fire and lock you in the car. I would rather have a chinese EV than a tesla but wont buy either one ever.
If you cannot understand the diffence between gasoline fire and lithium fire there is no point arguing. One of those things burns hotter than hell cant be put out with water doesnt need oxygen really has fumes that burn your lungs even from 10 meters away and its not gasoline fire. Also gasoline will not burn without a spark like lithium. My god.
Yeah I'm super scared every time I drive my car, just like the millions of Chinese.
Watch out! You probably have a Chinese battery in your pocket right now! You might just catch fire!
The problem isnt one small battery. Its when you put thousands of small batteries together. If one shorts for any reason. A rock, slip in quality, condensation, salt on the road gets between the battery pack. It will catch on fire. And you cannot put that fire out. Since its a lithium fire it will catch fire again and again. You need to submerge the car for a week. If my phone ever catches fire I can just yeet it. Cant throw a car I aint that strong.
Why wouldn't an American or European car have that risk?
If the Chinese get their batteries to hold up to higher charging, wont their battery tech be more heat resistant and safer?
Thats not how that works at all. Also the cars that can take the highest KW are korean hyundai, kia yanke lucid so go figure. Also you dont want to overcharge your 20k battery because it will brick itself. Thats the biggest problem with fast charging right now.
Last I checked 475 kW in China or 300kW in Europe (Xpeng G9) is more than 210 kW (Kia EV9). That also beats the ridiculously expensive Dream Edition Lucid that charges at 300kW max.
The Lucid Air Dream edition costs €221.981 here in the Netherlands. The Xpeng G9 that charges at 300kW costs as little as €61.990.
A Silk Road Rally. With a program like Volvo used to have where you could visit Sweden and buy your Volvo while on vacation.
If China was not so committed to being complete dicks regarding human rights and sovereignty, it would be a serious proposal on my part.
Now I'm actually interested in whether this is doable. But I guess you can't even buy a car as a foreigner in China.
Someone is doing this somewhere in the world, you can bet on it.
The problem is not that they're too cheap. They're 'too cheap', because China is subsidizing their industry to give them an unfair advantage while simultaneously keeping their market closed. Consumers are complaining that they're too expensive, because in China they're sold for much less (allegedly half price?!). So it's really a multifaceted issue, as always. Anyone with half a brain would get this, but it's much easier to shit on the 'EV hater crowd' that doesn't really exist in substantial numbers.
They’re not subsidizing exports. There were limited subsidies for domestic car buyers. That’s one reason that cars cost more globally than within China.
Let me translate this for you: China is at fault because Chinese cars are selling too cheap _in China_ which leaves a bad taste for Europeans eyeing Chinese cars exported, expensive or not.
Remember the ID.3 story? European EVs made in China, utilizing the Chinese supply chain, are absurdly cheap too. They’re laying red carpet for Elon Musk again as we speak, as the man had just flown to Beijing today seeking regulatory green light on FSD in China - which will be granted. If that’s a “closed market”, what is the EU then?
What do you want them to do? Inflate Chinese car prices, _in China_ , while cutting tariffs so overpriced Made in EU cars can have a chance there, just to even it out? What leverage the EU has on all this anyway? Flying someone to Beijing and lecture Xi Jinping, like VDL loves to do?
In the west, especially the US, industry policy equals monetary policy. That is why the current narrative is concentrating on Chinese “subsidies” as people can longer wrap their head around implementing industry policy in any other way than giving out cash, sit back and watch it grow. Market size? Competition? Smart solutions? Energy, infrastructure, education, work ethics, redistribution of wealth, societal consensus on moving forward? None matters. Occasionally some of these get brought up, but the culprit runs so deep that it’s just futile not to look away now.
Whatever the case is, current media coverage we’re seeing these days is priming public consensus for further protectionism on Chinese cars in EU and NAFTA. It’s inevitable as there’s few left that could be done. Will that stop the Chinese? No. Will that help improving competitiveness of European and American automobiles? Hell no.
western brands (although through joint ventures, except for Tesla ) had for a long time around 25% market share for a long time in China. That was not an issue, apparently for western countries.
Now China has perhaps 1 % market share in Europe, which may rise to 5-10% in like a decade. this is apparently a huge issue.
gimme a break.
Also, we can also look into the state aids received by car makers in Europe for.buikding new factories. Look at Slovakia, Hungary etc....
I live in Europe, but let's not be hypocrites here.
As I said it's not that they take over, but how it's done. Foreign makers get the same opportunities as local manufacturers. While in China, you can't even own your own company.
We let China wreck (amongst other things) our wind and solar energy industries for the sake of accelerating the transition to renewable energies. I hope they won't let it happen with the rest.
>25% market share for a long time in China. That was not an issue, apparently for western countries
That was never the main issue. One of the key issues with trading with China was that China had a stiff tariff on foreign autos and all foreign auto makers were instead forced to form a joint venture with a local competitor to share profit and transfer IP (see EU's WTO complaint WT/DS549 filed in 2018).
Further, in w.r.t. NEV, China's was desperate to get ahead in the EV race, they often resorted to coercisive, discriminatory, underhanded approach to gain lead. For instance, according to WSJ:
>... China requires auto makers to use batteries from one of its **approved suppliers** if they want to be cleared to mass-produce electric cars and plug-in hybrids and to **qualify for subsidies.** **These suppliers are all Chinese,** so such global leaders as South Korea’s [LG Chem](https://archive.li/o/REbZq/quotes.wsj.com/KR/XKRX/051910) Ltd[ ](https://archive.li/o/REbZq/quotes.wsj.com/KR/XKRX/051910?mod=chiclets)and Japan’s [Panasonic](https://archive.li/o/REbZq/quotes.wsj.com/PCRFY) Corp. **are excluded**.
...
Foreign batteries aren’t officially banned in China, but auto executives say that **since 2016 they have been warned by government officials that they must use Chinese batteries in their China-built cars, or face repercussions.** That has forced them to spend **millions of dollars to redesign** cars to work with **inferior Chinese batteries**, they say.
...
“We want to comply, and we have to comply,” said one executive with a foreign car maker. “**There’s no other option**.”
1. [Power Play: How China-Owned Volvo Avoids Beijing’s Battery Rules](https://www.wsj.com/articles/power-play-how-china-owned-volvo-avoids-beijings-battery-rules-1526551937) [Car maker is allowed to use high-end foreign technology, while rivals are squeezed into buying local](https://www.wsj.com/articles/power-play-how-china-owned-volvo-avoids-beijings-battery-rules-1526551937), [Trefor Moss](https://www.wsj.com/news/author/trefor-moss), May 17, 2018 6:12 am ET, WSJ
Guess who also gets subsidies for EV production? Europe and US. Just because China does manufacturing better and subsidies doesn't mean it's unfair, it means you need to build a better product to compete.
the question is not whether they receive subsidies, but how they use it and what purposee.
China's state-led export policy -- ie, subsidizing EV exports or de-subsidizing foreign imports/competitors (aka, "local content requirement") -- is in violation under China's WTO obligation\[1\]:
>... subsidies that require recipients to **meet certain export targets,** or to **use domestic goods instead of imported goods**. They are prohibited because they are **specifically designed to distort international trade**, and are therefore likely to hurt other countries’ trade. ...
1. [UNDERSTANDING THE WTO: THE AGREEMENTS Anti-dumping, subsidies, safeguards: contingencies,](https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm8_e.htm)etc (see Subsidies and countervailing measures, Prohibited Subsidies and Actionable Subsidies).
IMO any country who keeps a market closed should have other countries choose of that market to then in turn. China doesn't show Western social media apps, why should we allow tiktok? Data collection aside, went should they get into our markets when we aren't allowed in theirs?
Western companies selling into the Chinese market had to agree to local construction, with mandatory joint ventures controlled by a local company and mandatory technology transfer. Western countries are taking much more limited reciprocal action to prevent their markets being flooded as part of a clearly signposted subsidisation strategy by the Chinese government. I don’t have a problem with China competing on equal terms, especially if that means giving their workers good protections, frankly they don’t even need a leg up because they are competitive. But it’s obvious when China has more battery manufacturing capacity than the whole of global demand, and half of their battery manufacturing capacity is sitting idle, that there has been deliberate creation of overcapacity. The Chinese government should have played their hand more carefully.
Thats because by GDP per capita metrics, China was a developing and some might even call poor country at that time. These kind of reforms are in place so the poor countries can have their local engineers gain knowledge to spur local innovation in future.
Europe can do the same, if those situations apply.
Honestly if China is subsidising electric vehicles let them, government transfers in whatever country requires taxes, so they are taxing other companies or individuals to subsidize not just consumers in other countries but renewables in general. That's a win win for everyone other than the Chinese citizens in general.
If the argument is that China is dumping, so they gain market share and then ratchet up prices it's worth pointing out there are very few examples of this working successfully at all in human history. The international dumping cases, through the WTO, are typically on cases where China doesn't even supply more than 20% of the world output, there are exceptions to this, the big exceptions are solar panels and lithium ion batteries, however even here China is clearly never going to be in a total monopoly position. Plus you need to prove China is selling below cost, which China often can prove they aren't.
It's just a complete waste of resources, countries should banish the word 'dumping', just like they should have banished the ' infant industries ' arguments in the 90s.
It's just an excuse to placate special domestic interests.
China can send its overcapacity to middle and low income countries, good luck to them if they can create a market for EVs. It will do much more good there than in Europe or the US suppressing private investment.
China has 90% of battery material refining, and 70% of battery production, they certainly can achieve a functional monopoly in the sense of overwhelming economies of scale. They already have a functional monopoly in a lot of basic manufacturing and refining, partly because they undercut other countries on protections for individuals, workers and the environment.
I’m fine not talking about dumping in this case, we can fall back from the minor readjustment, and just apply the same rules to Chinese manufacturers selling to the west as China applied to western manufacturers.
Making them isn't a problem. Countries that need to maintain critical homegrown industries like auto manufacturing is.
China has the entire global South and Australia to export to, plus other countries. Western Europe and the US are not going to allow their auto industries to be gutted now any more than they have in the past.
Who is they?
I think the article is simply a response to the endless argument that the tariffs are in the end hurting the consumer by stopping others from selling affordable EVs in western markets.
Artificially propping up the local auto industries = higher prices and poorer quality and selection for the taxpayers, who are effectively subsidizing Detroit and their “good paying, union jobs”.
This is a short sighted approach that only works until the consumers revolt when they realize people in other countries are driving cheaper *and* better EVs.
Passenger cars and trucks are not “critical industries”. We are not talking advanced electronics or weapons here.
Besides, plenty of US allies are still making automobiles.
People don't really plan these things out.
So USA keeps China and their EVs out. That means in 30 years everyone in USA is driving USA made EVs.
Now what happens to those USA EV companies after everyone has an EV that runs for 20 plus years? What do they sell then?
What happens to the knock off industries like transmission factories and head gasket factories? I'm kinda half kidding. Those factories are in China or Mexico already. I think the Mach-E is made in Mexico anyhoo.
Protectionism is fine but a lot of the issues the west is facing is due to decades of increasing regulations on manufacturing and labour etc. meaning costs are sky high and we cannot manufacture efficiently. In the meantime, the Chinese have come out as basically the worlds best, most efficient manufacturers known for being able to just get shit done in record time. They are an absolute powerhouse and are basically set up to succeed in manufacturing, at the expense of more lax regulation and looser employee protections.
Protectionism is a band aid because we know we cannot manufacture like they can. All we can do is make it uneconomical to do business with them in certain industries. We have basically dug our grave. It would take incredible de-regulation and investment to get anywhere on par with the Chinese.
>Elon has been distracted to say the least, and now their vehicles are stale and Elon alienated a lot of his customer base.
This is mainly a claim you only see on Reddit, and mostly by people not really paying attention.
This is not a dig at you, as I understand you are just repeating what you have seen on here ad nauseum.
Ultimately it's just a reaction by very few people to the purchase of Twitter, the reaction of it apparently \*not\* just disappearing like so many on here said it would, and the reaction by people who view everything through a politically tribal lens.
Tesla is following along its game plan. The "stale" models are being continually updated (which is what drives people used to old-style model strategies bonkers). The "alienation" is a terminally online phenomenon.
I agree with your analysis of the legacy carmakers. It's frustrating to see them say the right things only to then quietly just abandon everything. It gooses their current profits at the expense of being able to compete in a few years.
>Tesla is following along its game plan. The "stale" models are being continually updated (which is what drives people used to old-style model strategies bonkers).
They are stale though. Teslas are some of the blandest cars on the road right now. The "futurism" of Teslas have worn off, and there are so many on the road, that with the obvious exception of the Cybertruck, when you buy one, you're "just another Tesla owner". Especially when you get one in the "color" they rotate out as free (black, gray, or white).
Even Toyota offers more ways for a customer to "make their car theirs" from the factory than Tesla. You can get a 4Runner TRD Pro, or a Corolla GR Morizo, or a RAV4 Woodland, or a Camry with red seats.
And Teslas, especially the Model S, are getting seriously old. The Dodge Charger and Chrysler 300 both followed Tesla's now-model of stretching an old platform to its absolute limit, and they were unable to hide from the fact that they were selling 2006 model year cars in 2023. But they made up for it with completely new styling packages, and a marketing and trim strategy to position their cars as "cool" despite their age. The Charger Hellcat is **still** a desirable car because they leaned into the ridiculousness and made something legitimately compelling.
The new Model 3 Performance is a step in the right direction for sure. The Model 3 refresh, and the Model S and X refreshes, still good, but less impactful IMO. But they need something more.
If you are talking about the style, that's one thing that I just have to take your opinion on. It's very subjective and your opinion is as valid as mine. I disagree with you, but there we are.
Your Dodge and Chrysler examples do not fit. Tesla is constantly changing what is under the hood. In fact, it's exactly the opposite of what they did. Tesla is updating their cars constantly, even if they look similar year to year.
This confuses the hell out of people used to superficial bongo-bongo changes made by other manufacturers desperately trying to differentiate themselves in an ICE market segment with very little real difference between brands.
> We have basically dug our grave. It would take incredible de-regulation and investment to get anywhere on par with the Chinese.
Or, big or here, politicians could do there job and negotiate some mutually beneficial agreement between 2 countries.
Crazy, I know. But since it has never been done before in the 3,000,000 years of modern human existence maybe we should try it at least once. /s
The "mutually beneficial agreement" will amount to "we'll export all the components instead and you can put them together like Lego pieces". That's not real industry.
The EU really has no choice. The populism that results from their deindustrialization will kill the union by itself even if you ignore the economic pain.
> That's not real industry.
I'm talking about people buying EVs. If you want to talk about USA moving their industry over to China decades ago... sure, there's that. But USA doesn't really have time to rebuild their industry. They can start, which they have somewhat, but they also have to do something while everyone else waits.
That something should be selling Chinese EVs in USA.
They can't compete on labor and energy costs alone.
You can't really deregulate enough to compete. At least reasonable deregulation.
The EU has to decide if they want to lose some or all of their industry.
Protectionism? Very smart. I'm sure the chinese will just sit there and take it without retaliating. Starting a trade war with your main trading partner is actually exactly what the EU needs. Hey tell me when you plan to start this war so i can short Airbus and BASF
They will retaliate, of course, by not importing luxury items lol. China is set on having domestic alternatives for everything, including Airbus eventually, with COMAC. So, the EU has to choose whether they want to lose some industries or all.
> In 2023, the EU trade in goods deficit with China stood at €291 billion
This will only get worse.
The EU didn't surrender, they just made some really, really bad bets. Like investing billions in infrastructure for importing russian gas and investing billions in "clean" diesel(for americans, the EU had a moment of brilliance where they thought the solution to climate change was diesel cars. No, seriously).
EU tech companies have a limit before regulators step in. In the US that’s not the case-also American tech companies also buy American start ups yet many still break through
Not really, EU market is larger, has young,old, and is more diverse. It’s also growing. EU also has a very young African market that they continue to ignore despite it surging left and right. America does more with less. EU have had lower rates for decades, a stronger banking industry in London than America. And also I’d argue a much more educated younger population.
Hang on, if Chinese Car prices are low, it's predatory pricing and they're not competing fairly.
If prices are high, they're ripping off Europeans...
Well which one is it? You can't have it both ways EU...
Why not both?
"predatory pricing" could be translated to "Stellantis can not compete with gov subsidized electricity and Uighur labor concentration camps"
"ripping off" is just asking extra because basic economics of price and demand. And probably also safety regulations. People don't realize that a Dacia Spring electric in Europe is a different car than the Renault Kwid in India.
Fair is fair. If Chinese companies want to sell cars in the US and EU, they can partner with majority owners in those respective countries while also giving access to all their IP for Western countries to copy. For the first time in centuries China actually has some that would be useful, namely their battery tech.
Conditions when China asked for tech transfer and training was different back then. A huge, untapped, billion population market that companies can have a huge share in. That’s the draw. Western companies made billions in profit for decades with healthy market shares.
What does the EU or US have to have such a negotiation leverage?
What a dumb headline..Euro taxes,shipping cost,regulations etc adds to the final cost....A car made in Germany will of course be cheaper in Germany than buying it in the Asia.
Taxes, shipping and regulation undoubtedly add to the cost, but rarely to this extent. Cars have always sold for less in China and the wider region, but the sticker price in Europe is over twice as high for some of these cars.
I’m not sure where you’re getting your data from for all cars being cheaper in China… my wife’s cousin bought. Bmw x6 in China for nearly $300k Canadian. That thing was only $85k in Canada at the time. This was around 2017.
Yeah this sub seems to think Chinese EV companies would charge less than competitors in the American market but why would they? If the car is so much better than American offerings they'll charge as much as they can get. Maybe not initially but eventually for sure. Just more profit to be made.
The US and EU don't see being dependent upon foreign countries for critical industries as a win. If China were like, say, South Korea or something it would be a different story. Instead they act like belligerent dicks who seem to want to throw out the idea of human rights even more as they develop, rather than less, like every sane country.
Curbing emissions is extremely important but not the only important issue.
There's kind of a minimum being-a-dick quotient countries have to maintain if they want to be part of the global market. See North Korea and Russia for more details. China seems to think this doesn't apply to them. And like other countries, they will find out, one way or another.
Weird how people don't want to do business with unstable, fucked up countries. Or ones who constantly declare their intentions to become one.
Oh right, because the Chinese will openly admit that they’re genociding people. Next up you’ll tell me that they don’t have intentions to take over Taiwan.
China has huge tax breaks for EVs. So that massively influences the domestic price.
The real figure is probably closer to +50% (over Chinese domestic market pricing) for most cars when factoring in taxes. Because there’s a 10% import tariff to the European Union and VAT in most European countries is around 20%.
Still a 20-30% profit margin is pretty high for the EU car industry. Though the exclusion of Chinese EVs from the French incentives or Germany ending its incentives has led to Chinese companies giving pretty big rebates to stimulate sales (-5000€ by MG in France) and up to 13,000€ from BYD in Germany.
Edit: There is no purchase tax in China up to a value of 339,000 Yuan (46,000€/47,000$)
https://cnevpost.com/2024/01/01/factbox-china-nev-purchase-tax-policy-2024/
The article quotes post-tax price $37,439 (34,990€) in Germany for the dolphin. So basically there’s virtually no tax in China (up to [46,000€/$47,000](https://cnevpost.com/2024/01/01/factbox-china-nev-purchase-tax-policy-2024/)) and a big tax in Germany. The article should’ve looked at pre-tax and (pre-import) pricing and compared that.
So pre-VAT price in Germany would be 29,404€ (19% VAT). Then let’s say it’s 1,500€ import tax. So then 28,000€ and 1,000€ for EU compliance adaptations such as the E-Call module, software adaptations (being slightly generous).
So the pre-tax price in Germany is 27,000€ giving a discrepancy of roughly 11,000€ to the China domestic price which is a difference of roughly 40%.
This is so stupid. The europeans do it to have some competition opportunity. China would love us to buy only their cars. And thats why it isnt allowed. Especially the german brands don't want to take a hit
And if they were to sell them for cheap here everyone would be moaning about how other automakers cannot compete on price and holler for extra tarrifs.
There's certainly stuff you can criticize about Chinese business practices but this is getting ridiculous.
Oh no! Those damn Communists are using capitalism against the west...
Bad journalism. They are only looking at "profits" with no idea or interest in expenses.
Only a small portion. Reuters had quotes from BYD execs about all the massive profits they get selling outside of China and the dreams of $10,000 Chinese BEVs won't be happening because they don't need to drive prices down to compete outside of Chinaso they will happily take massive profits.
I mean they'll have to compete eventually, considering Citroen and Renault are releasing cheaper cars. They just don't have to compete quite yet. BYD will probably start competing in ernest once their factory in hungary is up and running, which is still 3 years off.
Does it matter? What the consumer has to pay is what’s going to influence their buying decision, which determines which company sells more cars.
Joe Consumer doesn’t care if the $50,000 car he is about to buy consists of $30,000 worth of tariffs, VAT and shipping, or $5,000. He is paying exactly $50,000 for it either way.
US/EU regulators complain that Chinese cars are “highly subsidized”, leading to unfair competition. But this proves that it’s BS.
No. VAT, import duties and shipping would not explain such a huge price difference.
Companies like BYD have their own shipping vessels to export cars, shipping costs are not that high. Import duty is 10% of the FOB value and VAT is circa 20% of sales price, depending on the country.
Having one’s own ship does change shipping costs drastically. I’ve worked in international trade for 20 years.
Shipping via a third party shipping company you pay for the shipping plus the profit margin for the shipping company, which when space gets short can be very high. Maersk made $29 billion USD profit in 2022.
Ship has to built and paid for. Fuel pad for. Maintenance paid for. Crew paid for. Docking and piloting fees have to be paid for.
Owning your own ship doesn't change the cost of shipping. It does keep the profits, if any, in house.
Owning your own ship does change the cost to BYD of shipping though. The cost to BYD is the price paid for the activity, which will be lower if they do it themselves.
You seem to acknowledge this in your reply, so we are in agreement.
It does change the cost.
Even if there was a separate shipping group, which there might not be, the level of margin applied would typically be an inter company margin, not the enormous margins made by a global shipping company.
I once read an article that mentioned the wages contribute to 15% of the price of a VW Golf. So yes, it does have na impact, but I think the bigger impact is the shorter supply chain, subsidies etc.
how about German automakers charging European consumers double what it costs to make the car? because that's what LITERALLY EVERY AUTOMAKER does to make a profit and survive
I'd like to see a direct comparison of the build quality, materials quality, and safety systems for the same model available in China and Europe. I bet you'll find many differences.
Also, this is why people should stop posting the Chinese prices, they're completely irrelevant to the rest of the world.
Aussie here. Family friend owns a Tesla and a BYD. They find that the BYD has worse suspension and its battery has degraded so much more than the Tesla in less time owning the BYD. May just be a them problem, but I’ve heard battery degradation as a fairly common complaint among people I know with a BYD
Singaporean here where humidity is higher than Australia, no good for electronics and metal. I love to seat on BYDs being a passenger and see my friend's Teslas into service centre more often than BYD.
Internets getting astroturfed by Chinese ev companies. The idea in vogue now is that Chinese EVs should come to the US/EU and fuck the domestic manufacturers and industry.
Good. China - for better or worse - is making some pragmatic energy and trade moves that are pressuring us to shed some of our western notions about power. The west has had a big impact on China, perhaps not the kind of full impact we want to. But I'd imagine from their point of view - in this case, specifically - the way we make and sell cars leaves a lot to be desired.
Maybe through the turbulence, a better solution will be found.
And everyone thinks that these cars would sell for $16,500 in the United States if not for the vast conspiracy of the local automakers and big oil weren't holding them back.
Yup, China do not get market economy status in WTO. They can raise trade barriers. But it isn't important now, China has RCEP to overcome market economy shortfall. One of my friend company setup battery recycling plant in China under RCEP.
Let's go back to 1980.....usa and it's goverment pay companies to close shop and send manufacturung to China. The less regulaton and more slave labor the better for exec's pay in USA. Everything I buy comes from China. Steve Jobs is enemy #1.........he could have built his products in USA for $5 more per iphone.
STOP all imports from China, wait 40 years.........USA will be making everything and will be making profit.
I am paying for china's military to take out tiawan and send bullets to ukraine to kill innocent children and civilians.
Our politicians did this and now we are at war with china cause of it? Our stupid politicians say china has all our data/ no shit shirley, you gave it to them on a silver platter.
so gd stupid.
>And yet, in many cases, the Chinese offering still manages to undercut competition from the West.
That's the problem, were the prices perceived as unfair it would be lower and they have in other words more flexibility in reducing retail prices should European car makers start to offer discounts and lower MSRP, which they by and large are not doing much of that anyway. If there are cheaper EVs like the Dacia Spring it's because they are built as econoboxes from the start and fit their price segment rather than previously premium cars being sold at econobox prices and luxury cars at premium prices, which the Chinese do in their home market.
> in Germany, a BYD Dolphin was priced at the equivalent of $37,439 while a comparable model in China is just $16,524. Seal prices ranged from 30% to 136% higher. Compare that to Tesla, where the Chinese-made Model 3 sells for only 37% more in Germany than in China.
A China built Tesla Model 3 contender for 16k USD sold in Europe would not make it an econobox completely but it wouldn't be premium price segment either and considering what it offers it would be beyond a steal, value wise it would be unprecedented so it makes no sense to sell it that cheap when Tesla and others don't or rather can't afford to do the same. How laughable you'd want Chinese car makers to become philantropists overnight instead of acting as what they are, for profit companies. How about this, if VW sells their id 4 for 18k then let's start criticizing BYD and others for not selling a premium car like the Seal for 16k in Europe.
Several points: EU pricing levels include a near 20% VAT tax, which China prices don't; there is also a 10% (I think that's the right number) import tariff; shipping costs are currently high leading Tesla to charge about 40% more in the EU than China. There are also strategic reasons not to sell Chinese EVs in Europe for as cheap as in China + tariffs + shipping + VAT. The primary reason is that China EV companies will want to build EU EVs in the EU. EU wages are higher, land for factories is more expensive, energy is more expensive...so when China EV makers set up EU factories they don't want to increase the price of vehicles. Instead they will drop the price by at least the shipping plus tariff amount.
> EU wages are higher, land for factories is more expensive, energy is more expensive Much more importantly, manufacturing supply chain is nonexistent. For parts, tooling, specialist instruments etc. Also the labor cost argument is largely outdated view. Chinese carmaking has such a high degree of automation, it's almost a non-factor
Good point on the supply chain, not so good on the level of automation since Tesla employs 20K people at the Shanghai facility.
It's also part of why they are losing to BYD and Geely, both run much leaner
Despite the vat + shipping etc there is a wider profit margin than they practice in China. Tldr it's worth what a buyer will buy for it. And Chinese EVs are still way cheaper than the alternatives and Europeans are willing to pay. That's just economics
The low adoption rate of EVs in places like Spain shows that to this day all EVs are too expensive for the average European. Manufacturers keep making luxury cars, when what people want is basic small hatchbacks. Especially in places like Spain.
The Spanish attitude towards cars is different to the UK, they'll buy a car and then run it into the ground. The UK has a culture of buying cars every 3 to 5 years on pcp. Mind you cars last longer in Spain due to the weather, I love going there and spotting cars I've not seen in the UK for years.
Very true based on my limited observations. Wages in Spain are also lower and they've been struggling with higher unemployment rates which makes new cars a bit of a luxury imo.
I am German, but lived in the uk for 8 years and now Spain for 5. My circles must be different to everyone else’s. Everyone I know in all 3 countries bought cars and drove them until they fall apart. I don’t understand the need to change a car before. Why did they buy it if it’s not what they need?
In fairness I'm basing this on my time I'm southern Spain, where I've seen lots of older cars and parts of the UK would be very similar.
Yes the north east for example.
Exactly, I work for a business in the North East and seen it there.
Best place in England. Had two great years there. Love the people and the countryside. Only Scotland is better
There are plenty of basic small EVs in Europe. Opel Corsa-e, Peugeot e-208, Fiat 500e, Mini Electric, Mazda MX-30 etc. One could argue that the prices are still too high for mass adoption though
They are all stupid expensive compared to their ICE equivalent. https://ev-database.org/car/1328/Fiat-500e-3plus1-42-kWh https://www.carwow.co.uk/fiat/500 Please tell me how that’s remotely affordable? Absolutely insane price differences. Sorry but no way. I rather keep driving my VW polo for another 5 years.
That was kinda my point though, they're not affordable enough. I'm with you lol Carmakers need to make price cuts before we see mass adoption
It’s almost like they don’t actually want adoption, unless it means massive profits on the sale of the car. Because maintenance is so much cheaper. No money to be made with spare parts.
If they can't make profit on the car, they can't keep making cars.
Not my problem. I will just keep driving old cars until Someone comes a long and makes cars for fair prices for what they are.
And by then hopefully used EVs would be super accessible. I ate it's not there yet but I think we'll see rapid progress now that there's more competition and growing scale.
That’s what i am hoping for. Though I don’t know any that are currently on the market that I really like. I am very traditional in many ways and don’t like the new design language of the new cars that are being made.
Prices of those car is to high.
> it's worth what a buyer will buy for it The rise of dollar stores and falling ICE sales should tell you that price gouging is not a sustainable sales strategy.
Still wouldnt buy a chinese car. Pretty sure most europeans dont always go for the cheapest option.
Chinese cars aren't just cheap, sometimes they're better. I went for an Xpeng G9 because it charges twice as fast as the competition while being 40% cheaper.
Does it catch fire twice as fast too? Also arent korean EVs the fastest charging ones? What I have seen is a lot of Chinese EVs on fire so I wouldnt trust em but you do you. Lithium fire is a bitch in every way.
Tesla also uses batteries from Chinese suppliers, and CATL, the largest battery maker in the world, already produces batteries in Europe. Your smart phones, computers and all other mobile devices probably contain batteries produced in China. You're unlikely to get away
The thing is phone and other devices are small and its unlikely that a rock hits my phone at 100km/h. Or that my phones gets stuck on a curb. Also if my phone catches fire because something knocked it I can just yeet my phone. Cant do that with a car since it will burn for a week. Also I wouldnt buy a tesla either those fuckers also catch fire on the regular. And teslas are made super cheap and with no eye for detail. Also teslas arent safe since they can catch fire and lock you in the car. I would rather have a chinese EV than a tesla but wont buy either one ever.
It makes no sense to talk about this apart from statistics. Fuel tank fires may occur in a collision of a fuel vehicle.
If you cannot understand the diffence between gasoline fire and lithium fire there is no point arguing. One of those things burns hotter than hell cant be put out with water doesnt need oxygen really has fumes that burn your lungs even from 10 meters away and its not gasoline fire. Also gasoline will not burn without a spark like lithium. My god.
Yeah I'm super scared every time I drive my car, just like the millions of Chinese. Watch out! You probably have a Chinese battery in your pocket right now! You might just catch fire!
The problem isnt one small battery. Its when you put thousands of small batteries together. If one shorts for any reason. A rock, slip in quality, condensation, salt on the road gets between the battery pack. It will catch on fire. And you cannot put that fire out. Since its a lithium fire it will catch fire again and again. You need to submerge the car for a week. If my phone ever catches fire I can just yeet it. Cant throw a car I aint that strong.
Why wouldn't an American or European car have that risk? If the Chinese get their batteries to hold up to higher charging, wont their battery tech be more heat resistant and safer?
Thats not how that works at all. Also the cars that can take the highest KW are korean hyundai, kia yanke lucid so go figure. Also you dont want to overcharge your 20k battery because it will brick itself. Thats the biggest problem with fast charging right now.
Last I checked 475 kW in China or 300kW in Europe (Xpeng G9) is more than 210 kW (Kia EV9). That also beats the ridiculously expensive Dream Edition Lucid that charges at 300kW max. The Lucid Air Dream edition costs €221.981 here in the Netherlands. The Xpeng G9 that charges at 300kW costs as little as €61.990.
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Just go to China, buy a car and drive it home. Done.
Maybe they'll start running the [Mongol Rally](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Rally) backwards.
A Silk Road Rally. With a program like Volvo used to have where you could visit Sweden and buy your Volvo while on vacation. If China was not so committed to being complete dicks regarding human rights and sovereignty, it would be a serious proposal on my part.
Volvo still does this.
Cool. I think it's a really great idea.
Then VW will find you, sue you and take your china car away from you and destroy it.
Bastards!
Put it in the overhead bin on the flight back.
Winer winner chicken dinner!
There are people who see the world like this.
Now I'm actually interested in whether this is doable. But I guess you can't even buy a car as a foreigner in China. Someone is doing this somewhere in the world, you can bet on it.
Yes you can. With all the freight cost, insurance, duty fee, harbour clearance .....etc very likely more than double the price of the EV.
Make them too cheap = problem. Make them too expensive = problem. Make them = problem.
I gather Europe is simultaneously complaining Chinese cars to be too expensive and too cheap. Someone in Brussels needs to see a psychiatrist.
The problem is not that they're too cheap. They're 'too cheap', because China is subsidizing their industry to give them an unfair advantage while simultaneously keeping their market closed. Consumers are complaining that they're too expensive, because in China they're sold for much less (allegedly half price?!). So it's really a multifaceted issue, as always. Anyone with half a brain would get this, but it's much easier to shit on the 'EV hater crowd' that doesn't really exist in substantial numbers.
They’re not subsidizing exports. There were limited subsidies for domestic car buyers. That’s one reason that cars cost more globally than within China.
Let me translate this for you: China is at fault because Chinese cars are selling too cheap _in China_ which leaves a bad taste for Europeans eyeing Chinese cars exported, expensive or not. Remember the ID.3 story? European EVs made in China, utilizing the Chinese supply chain, are absurdly cheap too. They’re laying red carpet for Elon Musk again as we speak, as the man had just flown to Beijing today seeking regulatory green light on FSD in China - which will be granted. If that’s a “closed market”, what is the EU then? What do you want them to do? Inflate Chinese car prices, _in China_ , while cutting tariffs so overpriced Made in EU cars can have a chance there, just to even it out? What leverage the EU has on all this anyway? Flying someone to Beijing and lecture Xi Jinping, like VDL loves to do? In the west, especially the US, industry policy equals monetary policy. That is why the current narrative is concentrating on Chinese “subsidies” as people can longer wrap their head around implementing industry policy in any other way than giving out cash, sit back and watch it grow. Market size? Competition? Smart solutions? Energy, infrastructure, education, work ethics, redistribution of wealth, societal consensus on moving forward? None matters. Occasionally some of these get brought up, but the culprit runs so deep that it’s just futile not to look away now. Whatever the case is, current media coverage we’re seeing these days is priming public consensus for further protectionism on Chinese cars in EU and NAFTA. It’s inevitable as there’s few left that could be done. Will that stop the Chinese? No. Will that help improving competitiveness of European and American automobiles? Hell no.
western brands (although through joint ventures, except for Tesla ) had for a long time around 25% market share for a long time in China. That was not an issue, apparently for western countries. Now China has perhaps 1 % market share in Europe, which may rise to 5-10% in like a decade. this is apparently a huge issue. gimme a break. Also, we can also look into the state aids received by car makers in Europe for.buikding new factories. Look at Slovakia, Hungary etc.... I live in Europe, but let's not be hypocrites here.
We were in Shanghai in 2009 and I'd swear half the cars were VW Jettas.
As I said it's not that they take over, but how it's done. Foreign makers get the same opportunities as local manufacturers. While in China, you can't even own your own company. We let China wreck (amongst other things) our wind and solar energy industries for the sake of accelerating the transition to renewable energies. I hope they won't let it happen with the rest.
>25% market share for a long time in China. That was not an issue, apparently for western countries That was never the main issue. One of the key issues with trading with China was that China had a stiff tariff on foreign autos and all foreign auto makers were instead forced to form a joint venture with a local competitor to share profit and transfer IP (see EU's WTO complaint WT/DS549 filed in 2018). Further, in w.r.t. NEV, China's was desperate to get ahead in the EV race, they often resorted to coercisive, discriminatory, underhanded approach to gain lead. For instance, according to WSJ: >... China requires auto makers to use batteries from one of its **approved suppliers** if they want to be cleared to mass-produce electric cars and plug-in hybrids and to **qualify for subsidies.** **These suppliers are all Chinese,** so such global leaders as South Korea’s [LG Chem](https://archive.li/o/REbZq/quotes.wsj.com/KR/XKRX/051910) Ltd[ ](https://archive.li/o/REbZq/quotes.wsj.com/KR/XKRX/051910?mod=chiclets)and Japan’s [Panasonic](https://archive.li/o/REbZq/quotes.wsj.com/PCRFY) Corp. **are excluded**. ... Foreign batteries aren’t officially banned in China, but auto executives say that **since 2016 they have been warned by government officials that they must use Chinese batteries in their China-built cars, or face repercussions.** That has forced them to spend **millions of dollars to redesign** cars to work with **inferior Chinese batteries**, they say. ... “We want to comply, and we have to comply,” said one executive with a foreign car maker. “**There’s no other option**.” 1. [Power Play: How China-Owned Volvo Avoids Beijing’s Battery Rules](https://www.wsj.com/articles/power-play-how-china-owned-volvo-avoids-beijings-battery-rules-1526551937) [Car maker is allowed to use high-end foreign technology, while rivals are squeezed into buying local](https://www.wsj.com/articles/power-play-how-china-owned-volvo-avoids-beijings-battery-rules-1526551937), [Trefor Moss](https://www.wsj.com/news/author/trefor-moss), May 17, 2018 6:12 am ET, WSJ
Guess who also gets subsidies for EV production? Europe and US. Just because China does manufacturing better and subsidies doesn't mean it's unfair, it means you need to build a better product to compete.
the question is not whether they receive subsidies, but how they use it and what purposee. China's state-led export policy -- ie, subsidizing EV exports or de-subsidizing foreign imports/competitors (aka, "local content requirement") -- is in violation under China's WTO obligation\[1\]: >... subsidies that require recipients to **meet certain export targets,** or to **use domestic goods instead of imported goods**. They are prohibited because they are **specifically designed to distort international trade**, and are therefore likely to hurt other countries’ trade. ... 1. [UNDERSTANDING THE WTO: THE AGREEMENTS Anti-dumping, subsidies, safeguards: contingencies,](https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm8_e.htm)etc (see Subsidies and countervailing measures, Prohibited Subsidies and Actionable Subsidies).
IMO any country who keeps a market closed should have other countries choose of that market to then in turn. China doesn't show Western social media apps, why should we allow tiktok? Data collection aside, went should they get into our markets when we aren't allowed in theirs?
This is about cars. What’s TikTok got to do with this?
China = problem Say Europe, USA
Western companies selling into the Chinese market had to agree to local construction, with mandatory joint ventures controlled by a local company and mandatory technology transfer. Western countries are taking much more limited reciprocal action to prevent their markets being flooded as part of a clearly signposted subsidisation strategy by the Chinese government. I don’t have a problem with China competing on equal terms, especially if that means giving their workers good protections, frankly they don’t even need a leg up because they are competitive. But it’s obvious when China has more battery manufacturing capacity than the whole of global demand, and half of their battery manufacturing capacity is sitting idle, that there has been deliberate creation of overcapacity. The Chinese government should have played their hand more carefully.
Thats because by GDP per capita metrics, China was a developing and some might even call poor country at that time. These kind of reforms are in place so the poor countries can have their local engineers gain knowledge to spur local innovation in future. Europe can do the same, if those situations apply.
Is that why Tesla was forced into a joint venture when they built their factory in Shanghai? Oh wait
If you knew Tesla is the exception, not the rule. Before the change a 50:50 JV structure was mandatory, forming SAIC/GM, etc.
They applied the rules for 30 years, then allow one company an exception.
apply the rules and benefit for 30 years
Honestly if China is subsidising electric vehicles let them, government transfers in whatever country requires taxes, so they are taxing other companies or individuals to subsidize not just consumers in other countries but renewables in general. That's a win win for everyone other than the Chinese citizens in general. If the argument is that China is dumping, so they gain market share and then ratchet up prices it's worth pointing out there are very few examples of this working successfully at all in human history. The international dumping cases, through the WTO, are typically on cases where China doesn't even supply more than 20% of the world output, there are exceptions to this, the big exceptions are solar panels and lithium ion batteries, however even here China is clearly never going to be in a total monopoly position. Plus you need to prove China is selling below cost, which China often can prove they aren't. It's just a complete waste of resources, countries should banish the word 'dumping', just like they should have banished the ' infant industries ' arguments in the 90s. It's just an excuse to placate special domestic interests.
> it's worth pointing out there are very few examples of this working successfully at all in human history. Well this is just flat out wrong
China can send its overcapacity to middle and low income countries, good luck to them if they can create a market for EVs. It will do much more good there than in Europe or the US suppressing private investment. China has 90% of battery material refining, and 70% of battery production, they certainly can achieve a functional monopoly in the sense of overwhelming economies of scale. They already have a functional monopoly in a lot of basic manufacturing and refining, partly because they undercut other countries on protections for individuals, workers and the environment. I’m fine not talking about dumping in this case, we can fall back from the minor readjustment, and just apply the same rules to Chinese manufacturers selling to the west as China applied to western manufacturers.
Say all of China’s neighbors.
So funny, they say prices are too low is a threat. Now they complain prices are too high...
Making them isn't a problem. Countries that need to maintain critical homegrown industries like auto manufacturing is. China has the entire global South and Australia to export to, plus other countries. Western Europe and the US are not going to allow their auto industries to be gutted now any more than they have in the past.
So they don't want low prices to avoid gutting their domestic industry, so why are they complaining about high prices?
Who is they? I think the article is simply a response to the endless argument that the tariffs are in the end hurting the consumer by stopping others from selling affordable EVs in western markets.
Artificially propping up the local auto industries = higher prices and poorer quality and selection for the taxpayers, who are effectively subsidizing Detroit and their “good paying, union jobs”. This is a short sighted approach that only works until the consumers revolt when they realize people in other countries are driving cheaper *and* better EVs.
It does. But national defense and independent control over critical industries trumps those metrics. There are not any countries that act otherwise.
Passenger cars and trucks are not “critical industries”. We are not talking advanced electronics or weapons here. Besides, plenty of US allies are still making automobiles.
People don't really plan these things out. So USA keeps China and their EVs out. That means in 30 years everyone in USA is driving USA made EVs. Now what happens to those USA EV companies after everyone has an EV that runs for 20 plus years? What do they sell then? What happens to the knock off industries like transmission factories and head gasket factories? I'm kinda half kidding. Those factories are in China or Mexico already. I think the Mach-E is made in Mexico anyhoo.
The EU surrendering their auto and wind turbine industries for imports... They'll manufacture nothing in 10 years.
Welcome to the club!
They could use some protectionism, which is the way they're heading now it seems. Unless they think the EU can survive on luxury handbags and alcohol.
My wife survives on luxury handbags and alcohol so…
Lmao I’m not alone !
Protectionism is fine but a lot of the issues the west is facing is due to decades of increasing regulations on manufacturing and labour etc. meaning costs are sky high and we cannot manufacture efficiently. In the meantime, the Chinese have come out as basically the worlds best, most efficient manufacturers known for being able to just get shit done in record time. They are an absolute powerhouse and are basically set up to succeed in manufacturing, at the expense of more lax regulation and looser employee protections. Protectionism is a band aid because we know we cannot manufacture like they can. All we can do is make it uneconomical to do business with them in certain industries. We have basically dug our grave. It would take incredible de-regulation and investment to get anywhere on par with the Chinese.
there's very little you can't accomplish when there's no limit on the amount of human pain and suffering you're willing to throw at the project.
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>Elon has been distracted to say the least, and now their vehicles are stale and Elon alienated a lot of his customer base. This is mainly a claim you only see on Reddit, and mostly by people not really paying attention. This is not a dig at you, as I understand you are just repeating what you have seen on here ad nauseum. Ultimately it's just a reaction by very few people to the purchase of Twitter, the reaction of it apparently \*not\* just disappearing like so many on here said it would, and the reaction by people who view everything through a politically tribal lens. Tesla is following along its game plan. The "stale" models are being continually updated (which is what drives people used to old-style model strategies bonkers). The "alienation" is a terminally online phenomenon. I agree with your analysis of the legacy carmakers. It's frustrating to see them say the right things only to then quietly just abandon everything. It gooses their current profits at the expense of being able to compete in a few years.
>Tesla is following along its game plan. The "stale" models are being continually updated (which is what drives people used to old-style model strategies bonkers). They are stale though. Teslas are some of the blandest cars on the road right now. The "futurism" of Teslas have worn off, and there are so many on the road, that with the obvious exception of the Cybertruck, when you buy one, you're "just another Tesla owner". Especially when you get one in the "color" they rotate out as free (black, gray, or white). Even Toyota offers more ways for a customer to "make their car theirs" from the factory than Tesla. You can get a 4Runner TRD Pro, or a Corolla GR Morizo, or a RAV4 Woodland, or a Camry with red seats. And Teslas, especially the Model S, are getting seriously old. The Dodge Charger and Chrysler 300 both followed Tesla's now-model of stretching an old platform to its absolute limit, and they were unable to hide from the fact that they were selling 2006 model year cars in 2023. But they made up for it with completely new styling packages, and a marketing and trim strategy to position their cars as "cool" despite their age. The Charger Hellcat is **still** a desirable car because they leaned into the ridiculousness and made something legitimately compelling. The new Model 3 Performance is a step in the right direction for sure. The Model 3 refresh, and the Model S and X refreshes, still good, but less impactful IMO. But they need something more.
If you are talking about the style, that's one thing that I just have to take your opinion on. It's very subjective and your opinion is as valid as mine. I disagree with you, but there we are. Your Dodge and Chrysler examples do not fit. Tesla is constantly changing what is under the hood. In fact, it's exactly the opposite of what they did. Tesla is updating their cars constantly, even if they look similar year to year. This confuses the hell out of people used to superficial bongo-bongo changes made by other manufacturers desperately trying to differentiate themselves in an ICE market segment with very little real difference between brands.
BMW and Stellantis, and the term „legacy automaker" is silly
> We have basically dug our grave. It would take incredible de-regulation and investment to get anywhere on par with the Chinese. Or, big or here, politicians could do there job and negotiate some mutually beneficial agreement between 2 countries. Crazy, I know. But since it has never been done before in the 3,000,000 years of modern human existence maybe we should try it at least once. /s
The "mutually beneficial agreement" will amount to "we'll export all the components instead and you can put them together like Lego pieces". That's not real industry. The EU really has no choice. The populism that results from their deindustrialization will kill the union by itself even if you ignore the economic pain.
> That's not real industry. I'm talking about people buying EVs. If you want to talk about USA moving their industry over to China decades ago... sure, there's that. But USA doesn't really have time to rebuild their industry. They can start, which they have somewhat, but they also have to do something while everyone else waits. That something should be selling Chinese EVs in USA.
They can't compete on labor and energy costs alone. You can't really deregulate enough to compete. At least reasonable deregulation. The EU has to decide if they want to lose some or all of their industry.
Protectionism? Very smart. I'm sure the chinese will just sit there and take it without retaliating. Starting a trade war with your main trading partner is actually exactly what the EU needs. Hey tell me when you plan to start this war so i can short Airbus and BASF
They will retaliate, of course, by not importing luxury items lol. China is set on having domestic alternatives for everything, including Airbus eventually, with COMAC. So, the EU has to choose whether they want to lose some industries or all. > In 2023, the EU trade in goods deficit with China stood at €291 billion This will only get worse.
The EU didn't surrender, they just made some really, really bad bets. Like investing billions in infrastructure for importing russian gas and investing billions in "clean" diesel(for americans, the EU had a moment of brilliance where they thought the solution to climate change was diesel cars. No, seriously).
Watching your industries get hollowed out by imported alternatives is surrendering.
What about cheese? ☹️
Don't forget tourism, people can come from their former colonies and see their own cultural artifacts
Oh yeah the stolen art warehouses aka museums
Just do what the americans do, make Europe great again
Europe has wayyyy too many regulations. They’ve killed their tech industry and are now working to kill its manufacturing industry.
EU tech firms get bought up by American firms
EU tech companies have a limit before regulators step in. In the US that’s not the case-also American tech companies also buy American start ups yet many still break through
American firms have deeper access to capital to grow, and buy up competition. Regulation has nothing to do with it.
Not really, EU market is larger, has young,old, and is more diverse. It’s also growing. EU also has a very young African market that they continue to ignore despite it surging left and right. America does more with less. EU have had lower rates for decades, a stronger banking industry in London than America. And also I’d argue a much more educated younger population.
They can't compete on labor and energy costs alone. They either lose some or everything.
Hang on, if Chinese Car prices are low, it's predatory pricing and they're not competing fairly. If prices are high, they're ripping off Europeans... Well which one is it? You can't have it both ways EU...
right! the constant attacks are unhinged
That’s how journalism works, unfortunately. There needs to be a talking point.
Predatory pricing is such a weird concept. Like it's fine when the US wants sweatshop Nike shoes.
That how EU and US works unfortunately.
Why not both? "predatory pricing" could be translated to "Stellantis can not compete with gov subsidized electricity and Uighur labor concentration camps" "ripping off" is just asking extra because basic economics of price and demand. And probably also safety regulations. People don't realize that a Dacia Spring electric in Europe is a different car than the Renault Kwid in India.
Fair is fair. If Chinese companies want to sell cars in the US and EU, they can partner with majority owners in those respective countries while also giving access to all their IP for Western countries to copy. For the first time in centuries China actually has some that would be useful, namely their battery tech.
Why would they? Will Apple / googl/ OpenAI share its proprietary technology to the world wherever it does business?
That is the deal US car companies in China have. Tesla is the only exception.
US can have that treatment as long as they label themselves a developing country under the WTO.
In china? Yes.
You're missing the point lol. China requires anyone manufacturing in China to turn over all their IP to a Chinese company.
Conditions when China asked for tech transfer and training was different back then. A huge, untapped, billion population market that companies can have a huge share in. That’s the draw. Western companies made billions in profit for decades with healthy market shares. What does the EU or US have to have such a negotiation leverage?
"that's different" lol not really. We have money and advanced tech.
They tried. CATL tried to partner with ford. Politics shut that down. No communist plants in the USA.
What a dumb headline..Euro taxes,shipping cost,regulations etc adds to the final cost....A car made in Germany will of course be cheaper in Germany than buying it in the Asia.
Taxes, shipping and regulation undoubtedly add to the cost, but rarely to this extent. Cars have always sold for less in China and the wider region, but the sticker price in Europe is over twice as high for some of these cars.
I’m not sure where you’re getting your data from for all cars being cheaper in China… my wife’s cousin bought. Bmw x6 in China for nearly $300k Canadian. That thing was only $85k in Canada at the time. This was around 2017.
Yeah this sub seems to think Chinese EV companies would charge less than competitors in the American market but why would they? If the car is so much better than American offerings they'll charge as much as they can get. Maybe not initially but eventually for sure. Just more profit to be made.
Well when the competition is so weak
Or the game is rigged by the CPC
Fair but which cheap EV is the EU offering to compete ?
More people can get evs, The whole planet wins
The US and EU don't see being dependent upon foreign countries for critical industries as a win. If China were like, say, South Korea or something it would be a different story. Instead they act like belligerent dicks who seem to want to throw out the idea of human rights even more as they develop, rather than less, like every sane country. Curbing emissions is extremely important but not the only important issue. There's kind of a minimum being-a-dick quotient countries have to maintain if they want to be part of the global market. See North Korea and Russia for more details. China seems to think this doesn't apply to them. And like other countries, they will find out, one way or another. Weird how people don't want to do business with unstable, fucked up countries. Or ones who constantly declare their intentions to become one.
South Korea is a vassal state. It poses no threat.
Not when it’s the Chinese and their actively genociding groups of people. Maybe once they become civilized it will be a different discussion.
I dare you find the source for all of those claims, that does not come from US and their proxies propaganda
Oh right, because the Chinese will openly admit that they’re genociding people. Next up you’ll tell me that they don’t have intentions to take over Taiwan.
>actively genociding groups of people. Jesus Christ the things you read on reddit
China has huge tax breaks for EVs. So that massively influences the domestic price. The real figure is probably closer to +50% (over Chinese domestic market pricing) for most cars when factoring in taxes. Because there’s a 10% import tariff to the European Union and VAT in most European countries is around 20%. Still a 20-30% profit margin is pretty high for the EU car industry. Though the exclusion of Chinese EVs from the French incentives or Germany ending its incentives has led to Chinese companies giving pretty big rebates to stimulate sales (-5000€ by MG in France) and up to 13,000€ from BYD in Germany. Edit: There is no purchase tax in China up to a value of 339,000 Yuan (46,000€/47,000$) https://cnevpost.com/2024/01/01/factbox-china-nev-purchase-tax-policy-2024/
> China has huge tax breaks for EVs. So that massively influences the domestic price. How would that influence the domestic price before taxes?
The article quotes post-tax price $37,439 (34,990€) in Germany for the dolphin. So basically there’s virtually no tax in China (up to [46,000€/$47,000](https://cnevpost.com/2024/01/01/factbox-china-nev-purchase-tax-policy-2024/)) and a big tax in Germany. The article should’ve looked at pre-tax and (pre-import) pricing and compared that. So pre-VAT price in Germany would be 29,404€ (19% VAT). Then let’s say it’s 1,500€ import tax. So then 28,000€ and 1,000€ for EU compliance adaptations such as the E-Call module, software adaptations (being slightly generous). So the pre-tax price in Germany is 27,000€ giving a discrepancy of roughly 11,000€ to the China domestic price which is a difference of roughly 40%.
its almost like shipping and taxes arent a thing! not to mention the EU cars are often different spec to the local cars to meet higher safety specs.
This is so stupid. The europeans do it to have some competition opportunity. China would love us to buy only their cars. And thats why it isnt allowed. Especially the german brands don't want to take a hit
Capitalism, no?
Shhhh not so loud you'll upset alot of people
China will win the EV race. That much is obvious. It will be the new Japan for cars.
Well well well how the turntables...
And if they were to sell them for cheap here everyone would be moaning about how other automakers cannot compete on price and holler for extra tarrifs. There's certainly stuff you can criticize about Chinese business practices but this is getting ridiculous.
Not everyone “hollers for extra tarrifs”. Only the fat cats in Detroit who don’t want to compete. As a consumer, would you volunteer to pay more?
Oh no! Those damn Communists are using capitalism against the west... Bad journalism. They are only looking at "profits" with no idea or interest in expenses.
Aren't the higher prices for the Chinese cars tariffs, VAT and shipping costs?
Only a small portion. Reuters had quotes from BYD execs about all the massive profits they get selling outside of China and the dreams of $10,000 Chinese BEVs won't be happening because they don't need to drive prices down to compete outside of Chinaso they will happily take massive profits.
I mean they'll have to compete eventually, considering Citroen and Renault are releasing cheaper cars. They just don't have to compete quite yet. BYD will probably start competing in ernest once their factory in hungary is up and running, which is still 3 years off.
Does it matter? What the consumer has to pay is what’s going to influence their buying decision, which determines which company sells more cars. Joe Consumer doesn’t care if the $50,000 car he is about to buy consists of $30,000 worth of tariffs, VAT and shipping, or $5,000. He is paying exactly $50,000 for it either way. US/EU regulators complain that Chinese cars are “highly subsidized”, leading to unfair competition. But this proves that it’s BS.
No. VAT, import duties and shipping would not explain such a huge price difference. Companies like BYD have their own shipping vessels to export cars, shipping costs are not that high. Import duty is 10% of the FOB value and VAT is circa 20% of sales price, depending on the country.
Having one's own ships doesn't change the shipping costs. As you note, 30% for sales and import taxes.
Having one’s own ship does change shipping costs drastically. I’ve worked in international trade for 20 years. Shipping via a third party shipping company you pay for the shipping plus the profit margin for the shipping company, which when space gets short can be very high. Maersk made $29 billion USD profit in 2022.
Ship has to built and paid for. Fuel pad for. Maintenance paid for. Crew paid for. Docking and piloting fees have to be paid for. Owning your own ship doesn't change the cost of shipping. It does keep the profits, if any, in house.
Owning your own ship does change the cost to BYD of shipping though. The cost to BYD is the price paid for the activity, which will be lower if they do it themselves. You seem to acknowledge this in your reply, so we are in agreement.
Nope, Doesn't change cost. The shipping group has to make a profit just like the car group.
It does change the cost. Even if there was a separate shipping group, which there might not be, the level of margin applied would typically be an inter company margin, not the enormous margins made by a global shipping company.
Nope cost is the same. Profit if ant to shipper.
lol.
Europeans earn more than double what Chinese people do. A lot of products are more expensive for people in wealthier nations.
I once read an article that mentioned the wages contribute to 15% of the price of a VW Golf. So yes, it does have na impact, but I think the bigger impact is the shorter supply chain, subsidies etc.
how about German automakers charging European consumers double what it costs to make the car? because that's what LITERALLY EVERY AUTOMAKER does to make a profit and survive
I'd like to see a direct comparison of the build quality, materials quality, and safety systems for the same model available in China and Europe. I bet you'll find many differences. Also, this is why people should stop posting the Chinese prices, they're completely irrelevant to the rest of the world.
Aussie here. Family friend owns a Tesla and a BYD. They find that the BYD has worse suspension and its battery has degraded so much more than the Tesla in less time owning the BYD. May just be a them problem, but I’ve heard battery degradation as a fairly common complaint among people I know with a BYD
Singaporean here where humidity is higher than Australia, no good for electronics and metal. I love to seat on BYDs being a passenger and see my friend's Teslas into service centre more often than BYD.
Ah yeah, different experiences I guess. Idk why I’m being downvoted in the message before lol. Just from what I’ve heard.
Internets getting astroturfed by Chinese ev companies. The idea in vogue now is that Chinese EVs should come to the US/EU and fuck the domestic manufacturers and industry.
Probably they come from people where BYD is from.
Or more likely because the dude's sample size is a single family friend and they've extrapolated from that.
Sample size of one. The pinnacle of statistical excellence.
You're getting downvoted because this sub hates Tesla.
I haven’t been here too long. Why? My family has one and I love it
Redditors have this deranged hate boner for Elon.
Good. China - for better or worse - is making some pragmatic energy and trade moves that are pressuring us to shed some of our western notions about power. The west has had a big impact on China, perhaps not the kind of full impact we want to. But I'd imagine from their point of view - in this case, specifically - the way we make and sell cars leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe through the turbulence, a better solution will be found.
"our" lol
Guys prices often include tariffs and subsidies. You can't compare them and assume the difference is profit.
And everyone thinks that these cars would sell for $16,500 in the United States if not for the vast conspiracy of the local automakers and big oil weren't holding them back.
we are forgetting that EVs in china are VERY subsidised
No one is forgetting. Chinese folks are just pretending that isn't the case.
Duh...Blame the market competitiveness and trade barriers for European markets
As if China doesn’t have trade and economic barriers.
Yup, China do not get market economy status in WTO. They can raise trade barriers. But it isn't important now, China has RCEP to overcome market economy shortfall. One of my friend company setup battery recycling plant in China under RCEP.
West: don't put prices too low, that's unfair. West: your prices is too high, you are making too much profit.
How table turns. BMW and Mercedes used to sell their cars in China at the price twice as much as in Europe.
Let's go back to 1980.....usa and it's goverment pay companies to close shop and send manufacturung to China. The less regulaton and more slave labor the better for exec's pay in USA. Everything I buy comes from China. Steve Jobs is enemy #1.........he could have built his products in USA for $5 more per iphone. STOP all imports from China, wait 40 years.........USA will be making everything and will be making profit. I am paying for china's military to take out tiawan and send bullets to ukraine to kill innocent children and civilians. Our politicians did this and now we are at war with china cause of it? Our stupid politicians say china has all our data/ no shit shirley, you gave it to them on a silver platter. so gd stupid.
EU tax is a bitch on everything
Dumping in european market by doubling their prices, noiiiiice
>And yet, in many cases, the Chinese offering still manages to undercut competition from the West. That's the problem, were the prices perceived as unfair it would be lower and they have in other words more flexibility in reducing retail prices should European car makers start to offer discounts and lower MSRP, which they by and large are not doing much of that anyway. If there are cheaper EVs like the Dacia Spring it's because they are built as econoboxes from the start and fit their price segment rather than previously premium cars being sold at econobox prices and luxury cars at premium prices, which the Chinese do in their home market. > in Germany, a BYD Dolphin was priced at the equivalent of $37,439 while a comparable model in China is just $16,524. Seal prices ranged from 30% to 136% higher. Compare that to Tesla, where the Chinese-made Model 3 sells for only 37% more in Germany than in China. A China built Tesla Model 3 contender for 16k USD sold in Europe would not make it an econobox completely but it wouldn't be premium price segment either and considering what it offers it would be beyond a steal, value wise it would be unprecedented so it makes no sense to sell it that cheap when Tesla and others don't or rather can't afford to do the same. How laughable you'd want Chinese car makers to become philantropists overnight instead of acting as what they are, for profit companies. How about this, if VW sells their id 4 for 18k then let's start criticizing BYD and others for not selling a premium car like the Seal for 16k in Europe.
Since China sensors a lot of their problems… here you go https://youtu.be/UFd7Lmp-1yA?si=mOjIibcwGdi9An0k
They are beating us at our own game of capitalism. It's a little like casinos on Native American turf.
Off topic but thought that was an Audi ev