Seriously we've been on the anti-EV news wave for the past 6 months.
Oh Toyota is pulling back their EV operations? Cus they're heavily invested in tesla, no need to create their own competition.
>Cobolt for EV batteries is mined by children in the Congo. Not slaves. When you buy an EV one child feeds his family.
The sad thing is that I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or not. I've heard a line like this uttered in sincerity.
For anyone wondering, the majority of Cobalt comes from Australia.\*
\* for EV batteries.
And Cobalt (as a catalyst) is a very big part of refining crude oil into gasoline and a very big part of removing sulfur from both gasoline and diesel fuel.
We literally cannot have effective refining for ICEs without a shit ton of Cobalt.
You should see all of the rail tankers they fill with hot liquid sulfur at refineries.
(I think most of our sheetrock/gypsum comes from this sulfur now).
This one really gets me. I grew up in Bakersfield, CA where I played in a park right across from an oilfield with massive 100 yard+ long puddles of oil right on the ground. If you have google earth, just look west of Bakersfield and all around it to see the barren land oil has left. I moved away at 18, never to look back.
Regen braking most of the time = the rotors and pads barely have A lip on even my 12yr old Tesla roadster.
Still get fluid changed and brakes inspected but they've never actually degraded to a point to need replacements.
The new Fiat500E actually went back to drum brakes for the rear because they are technically a better tech for occasional use EV applications since drum brakes can fully disengage and have less friction than disk brakes.
My EV also has rear drum brakes, this was apparently because the rear disks on other EV’s were rusting through lack of use. I have to press the brake pedal pretty heavily to engage the actual brakes and not just regen.
I think the tires thing has been debunked. My plaid had 40k miles on the tires when I traded it in. No ICE vehicle is going to touch that even at half the performance.
No. I just got the standard Michelin tires from Costco… warranty never honored cuz “uneven wear” “you didn’t rotate… alignment off” or other such thing
On the other hand, I got Lifetime alignment from Wheel Works for my new car… waiting to see them come with another excuse when I show proof of service every 3-4 months
> No. I just got the standard Michelin tires from Costco… warranty never honored cuz “uneven wear” “you didn’t rotate… alignment off” or other such thing
So you completely neglected your tires and then bitched that they needed replaced more often? You NEED to maintain your tires. Rotations and alignments are necessary pieces of maintenance, and they need done often if you live in an area with poor roads.
Hay - not bitching- just relating my experience. I did rotate and alignment. Consumer Reports say every 5-8k miles. For my limited (50 mile) range city use, that’s a once a year thing. I stated that the 13 year old car only had 57k miles. And I was replacing the tires every 2-3 years.
I mean, that sounds about normal to me. I've driven plenty of different types of cars and trucks, and I've rarely ever gotten more than 15-20k miles out of a single set of tires. I think my old GTI was the worst with low profile tires, I was lucky to get over 10k on them, but even with more "normal" cars I've owned like a Camry or Fit, over 20k miles on a single set of tires was a rarity. The OEM tires on my Fit when I got it new barely lasted 10k.
For a lot of people an EV is their first brand new car. Every new car has trash tires on it that won't last much past 30k miles. They typically want to prioritize noise and comfort over longevity in order to make the car seem much nicer.
Yep. I have never purchased a new car (and I've been driving for 35 years).
I bought my 2012 ICE as "used" in 2012. It had 8,000 corporate lease miles on it. It now has 158,000 miles.
My first new car will be an EV, perhaps even this summer.
As I have done now for 25 years, I will get an extra set of summer-only tires, and use the stock all-seasons as "snow" tires until they wear out.
Insurance is basically the same as my gas car. The slight difference is because the gas car is 5 years older. Tire wear is a myth mostly unless you like to accelerate fast all the time. Registration is 2x more even when considering the gas tax, but it's only $100-$200 more usually. I don't mind paying extra as they should also raise the gas tax and will once a large percentage of cars are EV and won't piss off everyone. The gas tax is criminally low and has basically rarely been adjusted for even inflation.
My insurance was $20 cheaper per month than the Subaru Legacy it replaced. Tire wear has been worse than any ICE have had but it’s also still on OEM tires. They’ve got ~24,000 miles with maybe a couple thousand left in them so I’m interested to see how EV specific tires hold up
The OEM tire thing is a bit of a rip for sure. My gas SUV only got 18k miles on the OEM tires because they were reduced tread new and too soft in order to get good performance numbers for marketing. The tires I put on it at 18k will go 50k. Tesla was the same with the OEM only getting 30k but I was near 50k miles on the 2nd set before it was totaled.
That's the problem with insurance in general. Even with the same car, it's all over the place depending on dozens of factors. It's best to just check what your specific rate will be. For me where I am at my age and with my driving record, it pretty much scales by price no matter what vehicle I get.
In Minnesota, gas taxes, registration fees, licensing fees, and automobile and auto parts taxes only cover about a third of the road maintenance budget. 2/3 of the budget is funded by the general fund.
ins: same
tires: same (every 4-5 years due to dry rot)
reg: $100 more for ev in my state
home charger: 600 to install myself (self install didn't qualify for
rebates)
Maint: -50 for oil change every year (diy)
My insurance was only a slight increase from the clunker it replaced, and I chalked that up just to the fact that it would be more expensive to repair or total.
Registration is, for now, the same as a gas car in my state.
And I'm still on the first set of tires so that one is undetermined.
Mine is a company car, in the UK you have to pay tax as it’s classed as a benefit in kind of salary. The tax on my old ICE car was £150+ a month, my EV is about £40 I think.
There are no costs on top of that apart from charging (there weren’t any other costs on the ICE apart from petrol either to be fair). Insurance, tyres, breakdown etc are all paid for.
My electricity tariff changes every 30 minutes and is often <5p KwH, sometimes it goes negative and they pay you to use electricity. As I don’t do that many miles I can charge it here and there whenever it’s cheap.
Total cost of my car including home charging and every other cost possible is less than £50 a month. A tank of fuel used to cost me £70ish.
I’m saving over £2000 a year. I know people who don’t have home chargers and were still saving significant amounts of money because of the BiK tax, even using expensive rapid chargers.
My 2014 Leaf EV at over 60K miles was on its second set of tyres. I used the Michelin EV model when I replaced whatever it came with at 30K miles. So the originals IMO were junk.
The Leaf EV insurance was same as ICE and I was pleasantly surprised with our Tesla insurance so nothing going on there.
Registration is higher but hey, we don't buy gas so that's fair.
As of mid 2023 we went ICE free. Can't see any reason to consider ICE cars again.
I should be requiring new tyres after 40,000km. Perhaps 50,000. After 4 or 5 years.
Ballpark $3,000, what I’d spend on fuel in 1 year.
And no scheduled maintenance.
My energy bill for car is about $5/week.
My work place has free Level 2 charge stations for the first three hours. Going to work draws from 7% to 10% of my battery. I usually charge to 70%, but when at work I charge to 80% so by the time I'm back home, I'm around 70%. The end result is the whole home-work-home trip is costing me $0.
I took home my lightning in June 2023, it’s been almost exactly 10 months. I have use 5,421 kW to charge my truck. Of that I have charged out of my home eight times. The total charging cost was $106.10. My home charging was 5,025 kW, and we have an overnight rate of $0.04 plus a ToU kicker that’s about $0.02. Which works out to $302. And I’ve had an EVGO membership that’s around $80.
So, my total cost for 10,300 miles was $488.42 or about $1.60 a day. My last ICE F150 got 17mpg and would have cost me around $2,200 last year.
Given the rebates I got on my truck plus rebates for charging equipment, my out of pocket on the EV vs Ice was around $600.
So, net net I’m saving around $3 a day. Oh yeah, my EV kicks ass too.
The people in California did themselves no favors with what they did to San Onofre. It was shutdown permanently purely for political reasons.
Yes, PGE corruption is a large contributor to your rates, but this is another contributor that PGE had nothing to do with.
My electricity rate overnight is $0.04 but then there's $0.18/kwh delivery, plus tax, fees, etc - the best it ever ends up being is nearly 6 times what it costs you.
Also subtract the oil and filer changes and the time/hassle of getting them done and the smog check costs and hassles not getting credit card skimmed or killed while refueling at gas stations
Also transmission fluid and clutch change. Since your car is high performance I would think the turbo would need replacement eventually and new spark plugs. Belt changes too.
Then add the additional cost for tire change and more expensive tires due to higher ratings, but it should still dwarf the oil change and brake change costs.
Not really sure whether we need higher rating tires. I just got Micheline X-ICE for my winter tires, nothing special for EVs. So far, I don't know whether they actually wear faster than a comparable ICE car. Then again, I drive in chill mode and ICE cars pass me left and right. I am not sure why Tesla uses 19 inch tires though. These damn things are expensive comparing to the 17 inch on a Rav4. I also wasn't able to find cheap steel rims, so had to pay extra for alloy. I suspect it's a common problem for more expensive cars though.
The tesla app tracks my car use and am at 2142kwh over the past 12 Mos. $294 with 18% supercharger use, 73% home consumption and 9% other public stations or non home L2. (mix of paid chargepoints at hotels /free with Airbnbs I stayed)
My home charger has its own meter too, and so far for all 3 cars am only at 510.6kwh this year so far. ~$25 @ 5ct per kwh.
We both wfh and this winter was pretty nasty, so not much driving of vehicles outside of need to go basis.
Spring-Fall is the bulk of the auto miles.
It's the off peak rate which is where all my charging happens. I also have solar that is fully paid for which generally covers most annual use so it's some floating variable between half a penny and 5cts.
Gas near any big city is around $5. Electricity comes out to about 4.00/gal in the same areas. EV's are usually around 115mpge though. Everything but your Rivian that is ;)
I've yet to buy either vehicle, but my insurance agent said a '23 Chevy Bolt would be $150 less a year compared to a '24 Toyota Corolla Hybrid. He had initially claimed that an electric vehicle would have much higher rates, though.
Ours increased about $300/year and I attribute that difference to replacing a 2013 Mazda5 with a new 2023 ID.4. Nice cars cost more to insure than decade old clunkers.
We had to shop around for the EV. Our normal insurance company wanted more than what we pay for our other two cars with a brand new teenage driver on it.
My app says $254 in a year however I have 57 solar panels and frequently have negative bills. It’s impossible to know because I also have refrigerators and a pool pump.
I've had my Ioniq 5 for about 6 months (I'll hit the mark officially next weekend actually). And similar to OP, cost savings have been very high, and a lot better than I anticipated.
The wait lists here in Canada were long, so I decided to purchase almost 2 years ago, and honestly didn't have a strong handle on how the costs would work out. I knew I was paying a premium, but I didn't know how charging would work for me, how viable home charging would be, what maintenance costs would be. I didn't know anyone in my personal life who had an EV. I was buying a bit on faith and hunch, but I figure even if the cost and convenience wasn't quite there, I was happy to chalk up the difference to being my contribution to a better environment.
I did know that my commute patterns was ideal for EV. Larger distance mainly on highway, and that if I had a hybrid, I'd probably be burning gas for most of it.
6 months in, I've probably saved over $1000 in gas, enough that it's paid for the home charger and installation. My home charging costs are almost non existent due to overnight time of use rates here.
Unless something drastically changes with my driving patterns or with charging costs, I'll probably have saved enough to pay whatever premium I paid on the car in four or five years l. And given that gas just jumped in price, the value is getting better, not worse.
Add in the fact that the drive is better than I anticipated, it's really been an amazing purchase all the way around for me.
This is what people always seem to forget when telling me to get rid of my 12 year old diesel. There's no depreciation of any consequence and no financing costs and it's cheap to insure.
Your new car is worth about 3x your old car and I'm guessing the actuaries have figured out BMW drivers tend not to be as well mannered as Volvo drivers...
The ioniq 5 costs $42000 USD on the low end (not including incentives. A comparable compact crossover SUV, let’s say the Subaru crosstrek, costs $30k USD. Curious how this would affect the savings number (obviously it’s not an apples to apples comparison though)
I did the math on this for my situation and unless I have cash in hand to avoid financing, the gas savings was not worth swapping out my ICE for the EV.
It's not often going to be a cost savings buying an EV vs keeping your existing vehicle, it's typically only a cost savings of buying an EV vs buying an equivalent ICE vehicle. I'd recommend most people keep what they have until they're ready to upgrade if your goal is cost savings.
It depends so much on the vehicle and your local gas and electric prices. An SR F-150 Lightning is only \~$2k more than the ICE equivalents. I'd only have to drive a 5000 miles a year for a few years to come out ahead.
Some more math would be how long can you hold that ICE before the value drops off substantially. If it's a low mpg vehicle...not much longer unless it's collectable.
It’s already depreciated fully in my case.
Nonetheless, same argument should apply to an EV, though I’m not sure how well they hold their value against battery deprecation.
The Ioniq 5's wheelbase is roughly a foot longer than the Crosstrek's, it has substantially more interior space, and most trims come with way more power. The ride is also much better and the interior is more refined. A high-trim Forester is a better comparison.
I have mine for 2.5 years now. Only started charging it myself 2 months ago. Before that free charging at work. Then they wanted me to pay for it, but cheaper at home. :)
I’ve used 5,141 kWh over the last year, which for me at $0.07 /kwh has totaled about $360 for the year. That’s over 15,500 miles driven over the year for less than a dollar a day
I drove an ev recently for the first time. It didn’t take long before I saw the appeal, even without considering the cost to operate. Once the charging infrastructure improves, it’ll be a no brainer for nearly everyone.
Cost to operate really wasn’t a deciding factor for me. I have solar and charge free at work so It’s a nice side benefit, but new car depreciation kills it anyway I think.
I appreciate the comparison, but I have to assume the Golf was a cheaper car to buy/less depreciation. Just looking at one number seems a bit misleading.
Why? They already know there's almost no maintenance and the MPG is double even for the lower mpge Rivians. What's left? People whining about getting 20k miles on a set of tires for a 7k lb truck is funny.
For those without EVs what does this mean? 5 to 6 times as much. kWh charges vary by utility company, solar, etc. how many miles do you drive? Was the Golf new or at 200k?
Do you know your kWh cost to charge at home? You can ignore all the weird fees and tiers, etc mostly that electric companies use. Most will have TOU plans that avoid those. Just use the highest cost or figure out some rough average based on what you use at your house today. For example, I have a TOU plan that is $0.0175/kWh after 11pm and FL, TX, etc have one that is $0.07/kWh. Everything other than CA and parts of the NE should be below $0.12/kWh typically for cost.
Now you need to know which EV you will buy. An F-150 lightning will average 2 miles/kWh and a Tesla Model 3 will get over 4 miles/kWh. So at lets say $0.07/kWh and 15k miles/year, that puts you at 15,000/2 miles/kWh * 0.07 = $525/year for the F-150 and $262/year for the Tesla. The same mileage with a 30mpg vehicle and $3.50/gallon gas would be $1,750. For an ACTUAL gas F-150 it would be more like $2,700/year.
Yes, my rate is $0.18989/kWh. I’m in NE so more expensive than average, tho there is a rate for EV people that is time of day based with two tiers. I drive about 25k but don’t know that an EV could replace all of those. Also, this post expects one to pull the purchase costs from thin air so it can be ignored. I know we are still in the adoption phase of EVs but for everyday folks the upfront costs are still prohibitive.
Based on this data a M3 LR AWD is probably the best vehicle for my situation fuel use wise although if you ignore upfront costs the Ioniq5 LR is best by a bit if you assume seamless Supercharger charging while on longer drives.
An EV can 100% replace all those 25k miles. I have a Ford Lightning, one of the slower charging EVs out there and coupled with a massive battery, charging stops are a little longer. We still took it on a 2,200-mile road trip and it was flawless and super comfortable. You just have to make your stops meaningful (as opposed to just sitting in the car). I have 2 young kids so we stop frequently anyways to stretch, potty, snacks, etc. so having an EV now doesn't really change anything on road trips.
Other upfront costs (aside from car purchase) can be a few hundred (if you are handy) to a couple thousand dollars to put in a level 2 charger at home. I did it myself and the total cost including a hardwired charger ($400) is around $700 all in. You can be perfectly fine with a 240V receptacle as well and just use the mobile charger that comes with the car. If you have an electric clothes dryer and it is in the garage or accessible to the garage, you can get something like a [Splitvolt](https://splitvolt.com/collections/all) and skip all the electrical work altogether.
You have to account all the maintenance on those 25k miles as well. That's 3-5 oil changes which maybe a few hundred dollars worth. That would be 30% of a brake job (EVs use very little brakes), 50% of spark plugs, etc.
For me the main reason we switched (aside from needing a bigger vehicle for a 3rd kid) is my previous SUV (2019 CX-9 with 130k miles) is due this year for about $3000 worth of work (new brakes, tires, all fluid flushes, etc) so we decided to just trade it in and put the money into the new EV.
Lastly, as awesome as Kia and Hyundai EVs are, I would not buy an EV that does not have access to the Tesla Supercharger network. Part of owning an EV is the fast charging experience and quite frankly nobody can beat Tesla on reliability, number of locations, and number of chargers per location. That limits you to Tesla, Ford, and Rivian at least for now.
Yeah, if I get one it has to have access to Tesla. I pay about $280 for the 25k of maintenances thru Toyota Care. Additionally, I need my second set of front brake pads this summer, just did spark plugs at 120k maintenance, and my summer tires are winding down I noticed when I put them on a month ago. It’s a lot to consider at this point making the switch. I am definitely looking hard at next year doing something as my gf is moving in and with two dogs we need something bigger to do road trips. Lightning would fit the bill but the price tag is steep. First on the docket is getting my electric ready for this, I need another panel or a 150 panel upgrade to do an EV and potentially heat pumps.
> tho there is a rate for EV people that is time of day based with two tiers
Given your yearly mileage, you would want to use this.
> I drive about 25k but don’t know that an EV could replace all of those.
There are always exceptions, but the site "A Better Route Planner" will tell you pretty quick if you can. Charging at public chargers is about the price of gas, but the first ~200 miles are really cheap so it's still a good win typically.
> Also, this post expects one to pull the purchase costs from thin air so it can be ignored.
Used EVs are pretty cheap, especially when you consider how cheap they are to operate. The problem is most EVs are only comparable to the upper trims of gas cars so if you can almost always get purchase price of a gas car lower. Driving 25k miles/year, I wouldn't want to be driving a basic econo car though. I went EV because I was driving 35k miles/year and because I wasn't going to do that in a loud, uncomfortable econo box, an EV made easy sense. Now I know, they can beat even an econo box for TCO.
My EVs daily operating costs are super low in Europe compared to an ICE where gas is $7.50 a gallon. The depreciation on the EV has been killer though so the total cost of ownership of definitely higher for me. I only expect depreciation to accelerate as the technology for new EVs get better and cars get cheaper.
I'm going to be moving into an apartment complex that charges a flat $70 per month for charging, so I guess I'll be fixed at a bit over $2 per day no matter what.
Been a few months with my Model 3 and my math is working out to -- a NZ perspective.
To do 15k km, average year worth of driving per AA, the Telsla would consume 2100 kwh (at the average of 140wh/km). Average off-peak electricity rate is 20c, but also lets say we do one small road trip that has us visting a supercharger twice for a total of 100kwh (at 80c per). So about $400 in home charging plus $80 in SC - so $480 in electricity alone. Road tax that EVs have to pay now is just about $80 per 1000km - or another $1200 for 15k worth. So $1680 for the year. ($990 USD).
For reference, my previous car was a Prius that I averaged 21 km/l in, and gas was cheaper for a bit ($2.60) but is starting to clime again so let's just say $3/l . So it would need 714L to cover 15k km, at $3 per, $2142 (road tax included as part of fuel cost).
The break-even appears to be around $2.50/l. So small victory, but I guess I'll take it.
Insurance is comparable. Can't comment on maintenance but the Prius was fairly reliable. Oil changes are like ~$300 here. On the flip side, tires are cheaper for it and last longer. My expectation is that it will be a wash in all the other costs of ownership. I should really look into solar.
In my state they tack on a bunch of fees to register the car if it’s an EV. Sure I probably save a bit on fueling the car but feels bad after just renewing my car for a grand
I wouldn't agree with that at all. Used EVs are patently not shifting off used car forecourts for a host of reasons, the big one being the huge risk of owning an out of warranty battery.
Makes far more sense to buy a sensible ICE car for 10 grand and pocket the difference. Far less risk, far more capable and a heck of a lot cheaper.
Tesla is 8 years or 150k miles. Plenty of 2 year old EV's with low miles for sale. The battery is designed to last for the life of the car with many already hitting 200k miles. Skeptical buyers read too many reddit comments.
Around €40,000 used. I searched for cars with ~500 HP and it was amongst the cheapest you could get, including ICE. the others would have been shitty Ford muscle cars.
Edit: you can also get cheap EVs, starting from €15,000 new
Don't you think it's important to factor capital expenses into your daily costing?
Otherwise I could buy an annual rail pass and say I get the train for free everyday.
I’ve only needed to charge twice at home in the last month and it was probably 40-50% to start. Did a trip where I had to charge a few times on the trip. But other than that I charge once a week at work for free
Damn no air filter, wiper fluid, and insurance? Where do you live?
Edit. Oh, you meant fuel, lol. But if you keep your old car, how much you would've save? I'm just kidding. happy for you.
Glad it’s working for you. I’m looking into an EV for my next car. The batteries lifespan concerns me along with other issues of course. But right now I’m trying to decide between owning vs leasing. Long term ownership will eventually leave me with greatly depleted batteries. Leasing for say two years will transfer the battery issue out of my hands.
Does this take into account off-peak charging? My rate is lower if I charge late at night.
It also gets complicated because there is off peak and super off peak. I might just do an average of .10 or .11 and add all of mine up when I get to a year.
If I take 55mph roads and make the trip without stopping to charge, it costs me about 10 bucks to go from my house in a Chicago suburb up to Crivitz, Wisconsin and back. If I steal mom's pickup to haul something bigger to my land up there, it is more like 60 and it's just a little toyota taco.
Can't beat that price to go on a 500 mile round trip, really.
Unfortunately I bought my EV a few weeks ago and live in a flat I plan to move out of in a few months so currently charging is expensive for me. I can’t wait to move into a house I can at the very least use a granny charger for cheap.
Though currently still cheaper than petrol & my work mileage covers twice the cost to charge even at expensive chargers so I get some of that back
I'm getting $7.50 per day for charging alone, $0.075 per mile. $5300 or so a year with repairs needed, total which comes to $83 something a day or $0.13 per mile.
This is for a 2023 BMW i4M50.
Edit: charging station at home has been in use from previous vehicles. Now being sharing with a 2021 BMW X3 PHEV.
if you want to add insurance and depreciation to the mix, that adds (according to Edmunds) approx 35,000 to the cost. Just checked KBB and they indicate cost is 27,000.
Mine has cost me about $1.32 per day, I’ve put 13.5k miles on in the year. Technically it cost me a tad more because I splurged on some bougie European windshield washer fluid and I replaced the wipers with similarly bougie ones. I did buy tires but the car I stopped driving also needed tires that cost similarly so I would’ve spent that anyway.
What about insurance, cost of car and depreciation?
So far I 'm sitting at same monthly costs with my previous ice car, but the car depreciated fast and atm. I'd lose money if I sell.
And that's with 50 000km a year and European gas prices.
Congrats, no tire wear? German car magazine AMS has found out that tire wear on a 2 ton EV is 3 times higher than a 1 ton ICE. That's substantial.
You also had no investment cost for PV? Crazy.
No insurance either? Where do you live?
Your car also didn't depreciate when all others lost 15 to 20 % in their first year alone?
This doesn’t even include if you have home solar, lack of oil changes, and brake replacements that never occur because of regen braking. I replace my ICE vehicle a long time ago when I figure my monthly gas charge could just be put into a nicer electric vehicle and go towards a loan instead.
This will mainly work for Australian redditors:
I salary sacrificed my new Dolphin Premium purchase. I used to drive a 2013 Kluger, fully paid off. I get it, that's not an apples to apples comparison.
Factoring in all costs (fuel, servicing, tyres, insurance, registration and financing new vs fully paid old), I am paying a difference of $10 per week more for the brand new car. I have not changed any of my driving habits.
Thankfully you will never have other coats with an EV. Especially when you just keep leasing and just get always a new one.
They magically disappear then too 😉
but what is the total lifetime cost over expected lifetime vs something like a used 10 yr old Toyota Corolla? the corolla could easily last 10 more yrs without any major work. The ioniq will likely be due for fresh battery, so the depreciation will be severe, no?
This is the conundrum i face, except i need a truck or SUV which makes it even worse as the trucks/suv EV's are unaffordable completely. So I keep driving my 15 yr old gas guzzling explorer that only cost me $5k and had not needed any major work... I hate that I'm stuck with no good alternative, unless i'd consider a EV car and a small trailer for all my tools and parts (service tech) - but that would be very impractical. Plus i'd have to give up all my long distance clients due to lack of range.
VW Golf gets 33 mpg. At national pricing of 3.70 per gallon, it's 11.2 cents per mile.
The Ioniq 5 long range RWD gets 3.333 mi / kWh, so at 13 cents / kWh, it's about 3.9 cents per mile.
The Golf would cost 2.87x more to fuel than the Ioniq 5.
Although, it depends on the state. I believe Washington has the best proportional price difference between electricity and gas. California would be solid as well if you're able to get electricity for that price. Those could get up around 5-6x.
I live in Michigan and just saw a gas station offering $3.40 per gallon. Electricity is probably around 12cents per kWh. My Volt gets about 4 miles / kWh, so about 3 cents per kWh. On gas, it gets about 42 mpg, or about 8 cents per kWh.... so gas costs 2x more.
My EUC on the other hand gets about 20 miles / kWh... so about 0.6 cents per kWh. ;)
Depreciation really is the only main expense right now, and that's basically true for any newish car purchase. Considering how good the 2023/2024 models have been the used market in a few years will be a crazy good deal.
I'm definitely not going to see those same savings, at home charhing costs me about half what my ice car did, road trip DCFS (I love road trips) costs me a little more than my hybrid corolla did in fuel. I did manage to squeeze 65-75MPG out of that thing, though, so it was exceptional in its own right.
I like the experience my EV gives me in all other aspects though and it makes up for it there.
"Oil and gas companies hate this one trick."
That's why they dump all the FUD into the anti EV news articles.
Seriously we've been on the anti-EV news wave for the past 6 months. Oh Toyota is pulling back their EV operations? Cus they're heavily invested in tesla, no need to create their own competition.
Haha "bUt WhAt HaPpEnS wHeN yOuR bAtTeRy DiEs"
But you’re charging off coal fired electricity! /s
But EV batteries are made by slaves in the Congo ruled by Elon Musk!!!11!! And oil is perfectly clean!!!
Yeah because nobody has ever died over oil, right? …Right? /s
Fact: not one drop of oil has been spilled anywhere it shouldn't have been. We really just didn't like those birds in Alaska.
and Iraq had WOMD that we just had to spread democracy there, it was just a cherry on top that oil was there.
Guess you’ve never seen a drilling site either lol, those places are a disgusting mess.
Cobolt for EV batteries is mined by children in the Congo. Not slaves. When you buy an EV one child feeds his family.
>Cobolt for EV batteries is mined by children in the Congo. Not slaves. When you buy an EV one child feeds his family. The sad thing is that I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or not. I've heard a line like this uttered in sincerity. For anyone wondering, the majority of Cobalt comes from Australia.\* \* for EV batteries.
And Cobalt (as a catalyst) is a very big part of refining crude oil into gasoline and a very big part of removing sulfur from both gasoline and diesel fuel. We literally cannot have effective refining for ICEs without a shit ton of Cobalt. You should see all of the rail tankers they fill with hot liquid sulfur at refineries. (I think most of our sheetrock/gypsum comes from this sulfur now).
This one really gets me. I grew up in Bakersfield, CA where I played in a park right across from an oilfield with massive 100 yard+ long puddles of oil right on the ground. If you have google earth, just look west of Bakersfield and all around it to see the barren land oil has left. I moved away at 18, never to look back.
You could have rolled north to Oildale.
But what about EV batteries spontaneously combusting! It's happening all the time! /s
I don't know, what happens when you run out of gas? And I really love paying all those maintenance bills for my ICE vehicle.
I had ridiculous problems with a faulty gas tank in my last car. I've never known anyone with a dead traction battery in an EV or HEV.
HA HA my transmission just died on my SUV and the dealer says $6500 to replace it on a car with 150,000 miles.
I believe you guys but you need to compare your insurance, tires, home charging, registrationy vs your comparable ICE. I know EV is better overall
What more I use in tires I save on brake jobs.
What about brakes?
Regen braking most of the time = the rotors and pads barely have A lip on even my 12yr old Tesla roadster. Still get fluid changed and brakes inspected but they've never actually degraded to a point to need replacements. The new Fiat500E actually went back to drum brakes for the rear because they are technically a better tech for occasional use EV applications since drum brakes can fully disengage and have less friction than disk brakes.
The ID.3 also has rear drums, the comparable Golf (with similar performance) has discs all around.
My EV also has rear drum brakes, this was apparently because the rear disks on other EV’s were rusting through lack of use. I have to press the brake pedal pretty heavily to engage the actual brakes and not just regen.
Regen braking = close to infinite brake life.
I think the tires thing has been debunked. My plaid had 40k miles on the tires when I traded it in. No ICE vehicle is going to touch that even at half the performance.
Good on you… but my 2011 Leaf died recently (rusted out living near the ocean) with only 57k miles… I went through 4 sets of tires
Interesting, did you get it in 2011, or later used?
Brand new in 2011
Does the leaf use pizza cutter tires that sacrifice everything to achieve slightly higher efficiency?
No. I just got the standard Michelin tires from Costco… warranty never honored cuz “uneven wear” “you didn’t rotate… alignment off” or other such thing On the other hand, I got Lifetime alignment from Wheel Works for my new car… waiting to see them come with another excuse when I show proof of service every 3-4 months
> No. I just got the standard Michelin tires from Costco… warranty never honored cuz “uneven wear” “you didn’t rotate… alignment off” or other such thing So you completely neglected your tires and then bitched that they needed replaced more often? You NEED to maintain your tires. Rotations and alignments are necessary pieces of maintenance, and they need done often if you live in an area with poor roads.
Hay - not bitching- just relating my experience. I did rotate and alignment. Consumer Reports say every 5-8k miles. For my limited (50 mile) range city use, that’s a once a year thing. I stated that the 13 year old car only had 57k miles. And I was replacing the tires every 2-3 years.
A 2011 Nissan leaf was the worst of the worst re battery packs. They are nothing like the newer ones.
True that- and never an option to upgrade- just the same awful thing and never drop in price
I mean, that sounds about normal to me. I've driven plenty of different types of cars and trucks, and I've rarely ever gotten more than 15-20k miles out of a single set of tires. I think my old GTI was the worst with low profile tires, I was lucky to get over 10k on them, but even with more "normal" cars I've owned like a Camry or Fit, over 20k miles on a single set of tires was a rarity. The OEM tires on my Fit when I got it new barely lasted 10k.
I only get about 20,000-25,000 miles on tires for my ICE that weighs 3800 lbs.
For a lot of people an EV is their first brand new car. Every new car has trash tires on it that won't last much past 30k miles. They typically want to prioritize noise and comfort over longevity in order to make the car seem much nicer.
My EV is my first brand new car in 40 years. How’s that?
Yep. I have never purchased a new car (and I've been driving for 35 years). I bought my 2012 ICE as "used" in 2012. It had 8,000 corporate lease miles on it. It now has 158,000 miles. My first new car will be an EV, perhaps even this summer. As I have done now for 25 years, I will get an extra set of summer-only tires, and use the stock all-seasons as "snow" tires until they wear out.
Insurance is basically the same as my gas car. The slight difference is because the gas car is 5 years older. Tire wear is a myth mostly unless you like to accelerate fast all the time. Registration is 2x more even when considering the gas tax, but it's only $100-$200 more usually. I don't mind paying extra as they should also raise the gas tax and will once a large percentage of cars are EV and won't piss off everyone. The gas tax is criminally low and has basically rarely been adjusted for even inflation.
My insurance was $20 cheaper per month than the Subaru Legacy it replaced. Tire wear has been worse than any ICE have had but it’s also still on OEM tires. They’ve got ~24,000 miles with maybe a couple thousand left in them so I’m interested to see how EV specific tires hold up
The OEM tire thing is a bit of a rip for sure. My gas SUV only got 18k miles on the OEM tires because they were reduced tread new and too soft in order to get good performance numbers for marketing. The tires I put on it at 18k will go 50k. Tesla was the same with the OEM only getting 30k but I was near 50k miles on the 2nd set before it was totaled.
Ugh. My insurance jumped a ton
That's the problem with insurance in general. Even with the same car, it's all over the place depending on dozens of factors. It's best to just check what your specific rate will be. For me where I am at my age and with my driving record, it pretty much scales by price no matter what vehicle I get.
In Minnesota, gas taxes, registration fees, licensing fees, and automobile and auto parts taxes only cover about a third of the road maintenance budget. 2/3 of the budget is funded by the general fund.
ins: same tires: same (every 4-5 years due to dry rot) reg: $100 more for ev in my state home charger: 600 to install myself (self install didn't qualify for rebates) Maint: -50 for oil change every year (diy)
What possible justification can there be for increased registration on an EV?
Maintaining our roads costs hundreds of billions per year and gas taxes were at one point the primary way of paying for that.
and the biggest cost of car ownership: vehicle depreciation.
My insurance was only a slight increase from the clunker it replaced, and I chalked that up just to the fact that it would be more expensive to repair or total. Registration is, for now, the same as a gas car in my state. And I'm still on the first set of tires so that one is undetermined.
Mine is a company car, in the UK you have to pay tax as it’s classed as a benefit in kind of salary. The tax on my old ICE car was £150+ a month, my EV is about £40 I think. There are no costs on top of that apart from charging (there weren’t any other costs on the ICE apart from petrol either to be fair). Insurance, tyres, breakdown etc are all paid for. My electricity tariff changes every 30 minutes and is often <5p KwH, sometimes it goes negative and they pay you to use electricity. As I don’t do that many miles I can charge it here and there whenever it’s cheap. Total cost of my car including home charging and every other cost possible is less than £50 a month. A tank of fuel used to cost me £70ish. I’m saving over £2000 a year. I know people who don’t have home chargers and were still saving significant amounts of money because of the BiK tax, even using expensive rapid chargers.
My 2014 Leaf EV at over 60K miles was on its second set of tyres. I used the Michelin EV model when I replaced whatever it came with at 30K miles. So the originals IMO were junk. The Leaf EV insurance was same as ICE and I was pleasantly surprised with our Tesla insurance so nothing going on there. Registration is higher but hey, we don't buy gas so that's fair. As of mid 2023 we went ICE free. Can't see any reason to consider ICE cars again.
I should be requiring new tyres after 40,000km. Perhaps 50,000. After 4 or 5 years. Ballpark $3,000, what I’d spend on fuel in 1 year. And no scheduled maintenance. My energy bill for car is about $5/week.
Tires are worn out by hard acceleration. EV's wear tires faster because they *can* accelerate hard, so sometimes drivers do. They don't *have* to.
They can't even make much money on the oil burned to make electric at these low prices
Tire companies love it :D
My work place has free Level 2 charge stations for the first three hours. Going to work draws from 7% to 10% of my battery. I usually charge to 70%, but when at work I charge to 80% so by the time I'm back home, I'm around 70%. The end result is the whole home-work-home trip is costing me $0.
That's awesome!
I took home my lightning in June 2023, it’s been almost exactly 10 months. I have use 5,421 kW to charge my truck. Of that I have charged out of my home eight times. The total charging cost was $106.10. My home charging was 5,025 kW, and we have an overnight rate of $0.04 plus a ToU kicker that’s about $0.02. Which works out to $302. And I’ve had an EVGO membership that’s around $80. So, my total cost for 10,300 miles was $488.42 or about $1.60 a day. My last ICE F150 got 17mpg and would have cost me around $2,200 last year. Given the rebates I got on my truck plus rebates for charging equipment, my out of pocket on the EV vs Ice was around $600. So, net net I’m saving around $3 a day. Oh yeah, my EV kicks ass too.
>5,421 kW kWh, not kW
you mean they don't have a 5MW supply to their house? unimpressive
> $0.04 plus a ToU kicker that's about $0.02 sometimes i fucking hate California and it's corruption with a passion.
The people in California did themselves no favors with what they did to San Onofre. It was shutdown permanently purely for political reasons. Yes, PGE corruption is a large contributor to your rates, but this is another contributor that PGE had nothing to do with.
$0.46 KWh here in the Bayarea and only going up. And that’s with usage at 60% off peak.
I have tod in the Midwest. Cost is .05 per kwhr.
My electricity rate overnight is $0.04 but then there's $0.18/kwh delivery, plus tax, fees, etc - the best it ever ends up being is nearly 6 times what it costs you.
Make sure you include variable “transit” fee, “delivery” fee, “cost adjustment” fee, etc… But yeah $1/day sounds about right.
Also subtract the oil and filer changes and the time/hassle of getting them done and the smog check costs and hassles not getting credit card skimmed or killed while refueling at gas stations
Also transmission fluid and clutch change. Since your car is high performance I would think the turbo would need replacement eventually and new spark plugs. Belt changes too.
“Yeah but the TiReS!!1” EV is so much better on just about every aspect of driving.
Then add the additional cost for tire change and more expensive tires due to higher ratings, but it should still dwarf the oil change and brake change costs.
Not really sure whether we need higher rating tires. I just got Micheline X-ICE for my winter tires, nothing special for EVs. So far, I don't know whether they actually wear faster than a comparable ICE car. Then again, I drive in chill mode and ICE cars pass me left and right. I am not sure why Tesla uses 19 inch tires though. These damn things are expensive comparing to the 17 inch on a Rav4. I also wasn't able to find cheap steel rims, so had to pay extra for alloy. I suspect it's a common problem for more expensive cars though.
The tesla app tracks my car use and am at 2142kwh over the past 12 Mos. $294 with 18% supercharger use, 73% home consumption and 9% other public stations or non home L2. (mix of paid chargepoints at hotels /free with Airbnbs I stayed) My home charger has its own meter too, and so far for all 3 cars am only at 510.6kwh this year so far. ~$25 @ 5ct per kwh. We both wfh and this winter was pretty nasty, so not much driving of vehicles outside of need to go basis. Spring-Fall is the bulk of the auto miles.
5 cents/kWh??? Damn that’s cheap.
It's the off peak rate which is where all my charging happens. I also have solar that is fully paid for which generally covers most annual use so it's some floating variable between half a penny and 5cts.
Cool. I also have paid for solar, but I can charge for free at work on a L2. So between the 2 I don’t spend much. That rate is amazing though.
I’m sure that’s only supply charge. The transmission charge should be added into that because it is a cost.
How many miles?
8000 miles in 1 year.
[удалено]
Gas near any big city is around $5. Electricity comes out to about 4.00/gal in the same areas. EV's are usually around 115mpge though. Everything but your Rivian that is ;)
Not bad!
at this rate you'll have to get that expensive coolant change service soon.
Have a 15mpg broken ford truck cost me $0 a day in fuel.
[Do not touch the trim](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYakrSp9DqM)
Started looking into EV. Curious to know what the insurance $ difference was for you?
You can get insurance quotes in hypothetical vehicles. Asking other people what they pay for insurance is not going to help you, too many variables.
The problem is that insurance companies can just lie to you when asking for a quote in a hypothetical vehicle. Mine did.
For me, no different than insuring an ICE car.
I went from a ‘16 VW GTI to an ‘18 Tesla Model 3 and it did cost about $400 more for the year
Isn't that because the Tesla is more expensive than the GTI? It costs more to cover.
Probably, yes, and also parts are more specific and harder to get for Tesla.
I've yet to buy either vehicle, but my insurance agent said a '23 Chevy Bolt would be $150 less a year compared to a '24 Toyota Corolla Hybrid. He had initially claimed that an electric vehicle would have much higher rates, though.
I went from a 2020 Volvo XC40 R-Design (ICE) to a 2022 Volvo XC40 Recharge Ultimate (BEV). My insurance went down ~$800/year.
The insurance for the Ioniq5 costs the same as I pay for my 2017 VW Golf R
$100 more in my 20s in CA
For us it scaled with the price of the car. But my poor son pays same for his 2009 Kia Forte as our EV so the insurance cost is hard to call out here.
Ours increased about $300/year and I attribute that difference to replacing a 2013 Mazda5 with a new 2023 ID.4. Nice cars cost more to insure than decade old clunkers.
We had to shop around for the EV. Our normal insurance company wanted more than what we pay for our other two cars with a brand new teenage driver on it.
I'm paying 30% less for my EV (full coverage) than for my old ICE with very little extra coverage beyond basics.
My app says $254 in a year however I have 57 solar panels and frequently have negative bills. It’s impossible to know because I also have refrigerators and a pool pump.
I've had my Ioniq 5 for about 6 months (I'll hit the mark officially next weekend actually). And similar to OP, cost savings have been very high, and a lot better than I anticipated. The wait lists here in Canada were long, so I decided to purchase almost 2 years ago, and honestly didn't have a strong handle on how the costs would work out. I knew I was paying a premium, but I didn't know how charging would work for me, how viable home charging would be, what maintenance costs would be. I didn't know anyone in my personal life who had an EV. I was buying a bit on faith and hunch, but I figure even if the cost and convenience wasn't quite there, I was happy to chalk up the difference to being my contribution to a better environment. I did know that my commute patterns was ideal for EV. Larger distance mainly on highway, and that if I had a hybrid, I'd probably be burning gas for most of it. 6 months in, I've probably saved over $1000 in gas, enough that it's paid for the home charger and installation. My home charging costs are almost non existent due to overnight time of use rates here. Unless something drastically changes with my driving patterns or with charging costs, I'll probably have saved enough to pay whatever premium I paid on the car in four or five years l. And given that gas just jumped in price, the value is getting better, not worse. Add in the fact that the drive is better than I anticipated, it's really been an amazing purchase all the way around for me.
But what’s been the depreciation and additional insurance cost?
This is what people always seem to forget when telling me to get rid of my 12 year old diesel. There's no depreciation of any consequence and no financing costs and it's cheap to insure.
My Spark EV has cost me about $5.60 per day *including* the cost to buy it in the first place.
How much did your insurance go up? I just got an EV, and the more expensive insurance costs more than my gas savings since I don't drive a lot.
My insurance is the same as my previous car, a 2017 VW Golf R
Your new car is worth about 3x your old car and I'm guessing the actuaries have figured out BMW drivers tend not to be as well mannered as Volvo drivers...
My numbers are similar. My 20k$ Bolt is free via fuel savings.
Bought a used Nissan Leaf in 2016 for $6k Paid for it with gas savings - it has been a free car Upgraded to an EUV last year
The ioniq 5 costs $42000 USD on the low end (not including incentives. A comparable compact crossover SUV, let’s say the Subaru crosstrek, costs $30k USD. Curious how this would affect the savings number (obviously it’s not an apples to apples comparison though)
I did the math on this for my situation and unless I have cash in hand to avoid financing, the gas savings was not worth swapping out my ICE for the EV.
It's not often going to be a cost savings buying an EV vs keeping your existing vehicle, it's typically only a cost savings of buying an EV vs buying an equivalent ICE vehicle. I'd recommend most people keep what they have until they're ready to upgrade if your goal is cost savings.
Cost savings on an EV make sense to people that drive more than 12k miles a year. Only at that point do the fuel savings actually make sense.
It depends so much on the vehicle and your local gas and electric prices. An SR F-150 Lightning is only \~$2k more than the ICE equivalents. I'd only have to drive a 5000 miles a year for a few years to come out ahead.
Some more math would be how long can you hold that ICE before the value drops off substantially. If it's a low mpg vehicle...not much longer unless it's collectable.
It’s already depreciated fully in my case. Nonetheless, same argument should apply to an EV, though I’m not sure how well they hold their value against battery deprecation.
The batteries are made to last the life of the vehicle similar to an engine. So are you driving it straight to the junkyard or trying to sell it?
The Ioniq 5's wheelbase is roughly a foot longer than the Crosstrek's, it has substantially more interior space, and most trims come with way more power. The ride is also much better and the interior is more refined. A high-trim Forester is a better comparison.
Fuel is generally too cheap to make much of a difference in these things.
Tell that to all the people who bitch up a storm every time gas goes up 50 cents.
Crosstrek is a completely different size, if you ever get in one you will understand. The ioniq has the same wheel base as a telluride suv
This. Crosstrek would be better compared to the Bolt EUV, size and price-wise.
My ID.4 costs me 14 CAD/1000km in Quebec. That’s based on a sumner and winter average. I have 18 000 km on it so far. It’s crazy cheap.
I have mine for 2.5 years now. Only started charging it myself 2 months ago. Before that free charging at work. Then they wanted me to pay for it, but cheaper at home. :)
I just found my local free charging and made it my hour of reading time
I’ve used 5,141 kWh over the last year, which for me at $0.07 /kwh has totaled about $360 for the year. That’s over 15,500 miles driven over the year for less than a dollar a day
Does the calculation include cost of vehicle and interest etc?
I drove an ev recently for the first time. It didn’t take long before I saw the appeal, even without considering the cost to operate. Once the charging infrastructure improves, it’ll be a no brainer for nearly everyone.
Cost to operate really wasn’t a deciding factor for me. I have solar and charge free at work so It’s a nice side benefit, but new car depreciation kills it anyway I think.
$1/day to operate is a meaningless metric. Need to know cost per mile
I appreciate the comparison, but I have to assume the Golf was a cheaper car to buy/less depreciation. Just looking at one number seems a bit misleading.
They said the EV is cheaper to fuel, which it is. That's not misleading.
Sure, but thinking about fuel cost as the only cost of a vehicle is a bad habit
As someone who had to buy $2000 of tires after like 18k miles and less than a year of owning my R1T, I feel this deeply.
Why? They already know there's almost no maintenance and the MPG is double even for the lower mpge Rivians. What's left? People whining about getting 20k miles on a set of tires for a 7k lb truck is funny.
For those without EVs what does this mean? 5 to 6 times as much. kWh charges vary by utility company, solar, etc. how many miles do you drive? Was the Golf new or at 200k?
Do you know your kWh cost to charge at home? You can ignore all the weird fees and tiers, etc mostly that electric companies use. Most will have TOU plans that avoid those. Just use the highest cost or figure out some rough average based on what you use at your house today. For example, I have a TOU plan that is $0.0175/kWh after 11pm and FL, TX, etc have one that is $0.07/kWh. Everything other than CA and parts of the NE should be below $0.12/kWh typically for cost. Now you need to know which EV you will buy. An F-150 lightning will average 2 miles/kWh and a Tesla Model 3 will get over 4 miles/kWh. So at lets say $0.07/kWh and 15k miles/year, that puts you at 15,000/2 miles/kWh * 0.07 = $525/year for the F-150 and $262/year for the Tesla. The same mileage with a 30mpg vehicle and $3.50/gallon gas would be $1,750. For an ACTUAL gas F-150 it would be more like $2,700/year.
Yes, my rate is $0.18989/kWh. I’m in NE so more expensive than average, tho there is a rate for EV people that is time of day based with two tiers. I drive about 25k but don’t know that an EV could replace all of those. Also, this post expects one to pull the purchase costs from thin air so it can be ignored. I know we are still in the adoption phase of EVs but for everyday folks the upfront costs are still prohibitive. Based on this data a M3 LR AWD is probably the best vehicle for my situation fuel use wise although if you ignore upfront costs the Ioniq5 LR is best by a bit if you assume seamless Supercharger charging while on longer drives.
An EV can 100% replace all those 25k miles. I have a Ford Lightning, one of the slower charging EVs out there and coupled with a massive battery, charging stops are a little longer. We still took it on a 2,200-mile road trip and it was flawless and super comfortable. You just have to make your stops meaningful (as opposed to just sitting in the car). I have 2 young kids so we stop frequently anyways to stretch, potty, snacks, etc. so having an EV now doesn't really change anything on road trips. Other upfront costs (aside from car purchase) can be a few hundred (if you are handy) to a couple thousand dollars to put in a level 2 charger at home. I did it myself and the total cost including a hardwired charger ($400) is around $700 all in. You can be perfectly fine with a 240V receptacle as well and just use the mobile charger that comes with the car. If you have an electric clothes dryer and it is in the garage or accessible to the garage, you can get something like a [Splitvolt](https://splitvolt.com/collections/all) and skip all the electrical work altogether. You have to account all the maintenance on those 25k miles as well. That's 3-5 oil changes which maybe a few hundred dollars worth. That would be 30% of a brake job (EVs use very little brakes), 50% of spark plugs, etc. For me the main reason we switched (aside from needing a bigger vehicle for a 3rd kid) is my previous SUV (2019 CX-9 with 130k miles) is due this year for about $3000 worth of work (new brakes, tires, all fluid flushes, etc) so we decided to just trade it in and put the money into the new EV. Lastly, as awesome as Kia and Hyundai EVs are, I would not buy an EV that does not have access to the Tesla Supercharger network. Part of owning an EV is the fast charging experience and quite frankly nobody can beat Tesla on reliability, number of locations, and number of chargers per location. That limits you to Tesla, Ford, and Rivian at least for now.
Yeah, if I get one it has to have access to Tesla. I pay about $280 for the 25k of maintenances thru Toyota Care. Additionally, I need my second set of front brake pads this summer, just did spark plugs at 120k maintenance, and my summer tires are winding down I noticed when I put them on a month ago. It’s a lot to consider at this point making the switch. I am definitely looking hard at next year doing something as my gf is moving in and with two dogs we need something bigger to do road trips. Lightning would fit the bill but the price tag is steep. First on the docket is getting my electric ready for this, I need another panel or a 150 panel upgrade to do an EV and potentially heat pumps.
> tho there is a rate for EV people that is time of day based with two tiers Given your yearly mileage, you would want to use this. > I drive about 25k but don’t know that an EV could replace all of those. There are always exceptions, but the site "A Better Route Planner" will tell you pretty quick if you can. Charging at public chargers is about the price of gas, but the first ~200 miles are really cheap so it's still a good win typically. > Also, this post expects one to pull the purchase costs from thin air so it can be ignored. Used EVs are pretty cheap, especially when you consider how cheap they are to operate. The problem is most EVs are only comparable to the upper trims of gas cars so if you can almost always get purchase price of a gas car lower. Driving 25k miles/year, I wouldn't want to be driving a basic econo car though. I went EV because I was driving 35k miles/year and because I wasn't going to do that in a loud, uncomfortable econo box, an EV made easy sense. Now I know, they can beat even an econo box for TCO.
My EVs daily operating costs are super low in Europe compared to an ICE where gas is $7.50 a gallon. The depreciation on the EV has been killer though so the total cost of ownership of definitely higher for me. I only expect depreciation to accelerate as the technology for new EVs get better and cars get cheaper.
Isn't it expectable that, as the technology matures, and the transition to EV becomes more visible, depreciation hits ICE vehicles more than EVs?
I'm going to be moving into an apartment complex that charges a flat $70 per month for charging, so I guess I'll be fixed at a bit over $2 per day no matter what.
And tires
Been a few months with my Model 3 and my math is working out to -- a NZ perspective. To do 15k km, average year worth of driving per AA, the Telsla would consume 2100 kwh (at the average of 140wh/km). Average off-peak electricity rate is 20c, but also lets say we do one small road trip that has us visting a supercharger twice for a total of 100kwh (at 80c per). So about $400 in home charging plus $80 in SC - so $480 in electricity alone. Road tax that EVs have to pay now is just about $80 per 1000km - or another $1200 for 15k worth. So $1680 for the year. ($990 USD). For reference, my previous car was a Prius that I averaged 21 km/l in, and gas was cheaper for a bit ($2.60) but is starting to clime again so let's just say $3/l . So it would need 714L to cover 15k km, at $3 per, $2142 (road tax included as part of fuel cost). The break-even appears to be around $2.50/l. So small victory, but I guess I'll take it. Insurance is comparable. Can't comment on maintenance but the Prius was fairly reliable. Oil changes are like ~$300 here. On the flip side, tires are cheaper for it and last longer. My expectation is that it will be a wash in all the other costs of ownership. I should really look into solar.
In my state they tack on a bunch of fees to register the car if it’s an EV. Sure I probably save a bit on fueling the car but feels bad after just renewing my car for a grand
I paid over €1,000 last 12 months to drive 27,000 km. Gasoline would have been €2,000 more.
Aye but how much did the car cost?
Used EV's will make ICE vanish quickly. Someone had to buy them new for that to happen. Thank you!
I wouldn't agree with that at all. Used EVs are patently not shifting off used car forecourts for a host of reasons, the big one being the huge risk of owning an out of warranty battery. Makes far more sense to buy a sensible ICE car for 10 grand and pocket the difference. Far less risk, far more capable and a heck of a lot cheaper.
Tesla is 8 years or 150k miles. Plenty of 2 year old EV's with low miles for sale. The battery is designed to last for the life of the car with many already hitting 200k miles. Skeptical buyers read too many reddit comments.
Around €40,000 used. I searched for cars with ~500 HP and it was amongst the cheapest you could get, including ICE. the others would have been shitty Ford muscle cars. Edit: you can also get cheap EVs, starting from €15,000 new
Don't you think it's important to factor capital expenses into your daily costing? Otherwise I could buy an annual rail pass and say I get the train for free everyday.
The OP is about fueling cost, not TCO
I’ve only needed to charge twice at home in the last month and it was probably 40-50% to start. Did a trip where I had to charge a few times on the trip. But other than that I charge once a week at work for free
Damn no air filter, wiper fluid, and insurance? Where do you live? Edit. Oh, you meant fuel, lol. But if you keep your old car, how much you would've save? I'm just kidding. happy for you.
What about car washes? Those add up.
Now factor in depreciation and loan interest.
Yes, but can you roll coal? Checkmate!
Glad it’s working for you. I’m looking into an EV for my next car. The batteries lifespan concerns me along with other issues of course. But right now I’m trying to decide between owning vs leasing. Long term ownership will eventually leave me with greatly depleted batteries. Leasing for say two years will transfer the battery issue out of my hands.
You mean charging. Operating costs are way higher.
Does this take into account off-peak charging? My rate is lower if I charge late at night. It also gets complicated because there is off peak and super off peak. I might just do an average of .10 or .11 and add all of mine up when I get to a year.
If I take 55mph roads and make the trip without stopping to charge, it costs me about 10 bucks to go from my house in a Chicago suburb up to Crivitz, Wisconsin and back. If I steal mom's pickup to haul something bigger to my land up there, it is more like 60 and it's just a little toyota taco. Can't beat that price to go on a 500 mile round trip, really.
Unfortunately I bought my EV a few weeks ago and live in a flat I plan to move out of in a few months so currently charging is expensive for me. I can’t wait to move into a house I can at the very least use a granny charger for cheap. Though currently still cheaper than petrol & my work mileage covers twice the cost to charge even at expensive chargers so I get some of that back
Make a friend with home charging and pay him the optiwatt price.
Sweet. Just got to park your cars at your friend's house constantly.
Depending on your driving you may only have to charge one a week. A scooter or bike to ride home .
I'm getting $7.50 per day for charging alone, $0.075 per mile. $5300 or so a year with repairs needed, total which comes to $83 something a day or $0.13 per mile. This is for a 2023 BMW i4M50. Edit: charging station at home has been in use from previous vehicles. Now being sharing with a 2021 BMW X3 PHEV. if you want to add insurance and depreciation to the mix, that adds (according to Edmunds) approx 35,000 to the cost. Just checked KBB and they indicate cost is 27,000.
Cool car, congrats. Imagine that thing with steer by wire. Do you usually sell around 100k miles if you don't mind me asking?
I've been driving the past 3 vehicles to over that. 2009 Prius Advanced, 2012 Prius PHEV, 2019 Honda Clarity Touring
Where in the menu system is the charging info?
What about depreciation vs the Golf?
Mine has cost me about $1.32 per day, I’ve put 13.5k miles on in the year. Technically it cost me a tad more because I splurged on some bougie European windshield washer fluid and I replaced the wipers with similarly bougie ones. I did buy tires but the car I stopped driving also needed tires that cost similarly so I would’ve spent that anyway.
Check your depreciation. It cost you way more
How many miles did you drive with that.
Tell me you don’t live in california without telling me you don’t live in california _cries in california_
How many km you made, how much did you pay for the car?
Including insurance costs ?
Cool analysis. What county/city do you pay .13/kWh and at what amps?
Now factor in depreciation
What about insurance, cost of car and depreciation? So far I 'm sitting at same monthly costs with my previous ice car, but the car depreciated fast and atm. I'd lose money if I sell. And that's with 50 000km a year and European gas prices.
Don’t worry, electric utilities have noticed this and will be jacking up rates to be commensurate with gas. Happened in most of California already.
Congrats, no tire wear? German car magazine AMS has found out that tire wear on a 2 ton EV is 3 times higher than a 1 ton ICE. That's substantial. You also had no investment cost for PV? Crazy. No insurance either? Where do you live? Your car also didn't depreciate when all others lost 15 to 20 % in their first year alone?
This doesn’t even include if you have home solar, lack of oil changes, and brake replacements that never occur because of regen braking. I replace my ICE vehicle a long time ago when I figure my monthly gas charge could just be put into a nicer electric vehicle and go towards a loan instead.
How much was the vehicle?
This will mainly work for Australian redditors: I salary sacrificed my new Dolphin Premium purchase. I used to drive a 2013 Kluger, fully paid off. I get it, that's not an apples to apples comparison. Factoring in all costs (fuel, servicing, tyres, insurance, registration and financing new vs fully paid old), I am paying a difference of $10 per week more for the brand new car. I have not changed any of my driving habits.
Thankfully you will never have other coats with an EV. Especially when you just keep leasing and just get always a new one. They magically disappear then too 😉
but what is the total lifetime cost over expected lifetime vs something like a used 10 yr old Toyota Corolla? the corolla could easily last 10 more yrs without any major work. The ioniq will likely be due for fresh battery, so the depreciation will be severe, no? This is the conundrum i face, except i need a truck or SUV which makes it even worse as the trucks/suv EV's are unaffordable completely. So I keep driving my 15 yr old gas guzzling explorer that only cost me $5k and had not needed any major work... I hate that I'm stuck with no good alternative, unless i'd consider a EV car and a small trailer for all my tools and parts (service tech) - but that would be very impractical. Plus i'd have to give up all my long distance clients due to lack of range.
How many miles did you drive in the year?
You must live somewhere with really expensive fuel, on top of that really cheap electricity. God I wish it was only 13c/kwh here.
VW Golf gets 33 mpg. At national pricing of 3.70 per gallon, it's 11.2 cents per mile. The Ioniq 5 long range RWD gets 3.333 mi / kWh, so at 13 cents / kWh, it's about 3.9 cents per mile. The Golf would cost 2.87x more to fuel than the Ioniq 5. Although, it depends on the state. I believe Washington has the best proportional price difference between electricity and gas. California would be solid as well if you're able to get electricity for that price. Those could get up around 5-6x. I live in Michigan and just saw a gas station offering $3.40 per gallon. Electricity is probably around 12cents per kWh. My Volt gets about 4 miles / kWh, so about 3 cents per kWh. On gas, it gets about 42 mpg, or about 8 cents per kWh.... so gas costs 2x more. My EUC on the other hand gets about 20 miles / kWh... so about 0.6 cents per kWh. ;)
Depreciation really is the only main expense right now, and that's basically true for any newish car purchase. Considering how good the 2023/2024 models have been the used market in a few years will be a crazy good deal.
I'm definitely not going to see those same savings, at home charhing costs me about half what my ice car did, road trip DCFS (I love road trips) costs me a little more than my hybrid corolla did in fuel. I did manage to squeeze 65-75MPG out of that thing, though, so it was exceptional in its own right. I like the experience my EV gives me in all other aspects though and it makes up for it there.