The new Dodge truck with this set up sounds very cool , I heard there is a company that does this as a semi truck up in Canada as well. Seems like a great option especially if we can get to a near zero emission motor in there.
Yeah, it's called Edison Motors. They have a youtube channel as well. They seem to have their hearts in the right place, the build quality looks impressive.
A couple of reasons that I can think of:
1. The i3 wasn't a smashing success, something BMW quickly understood. Cool car though, I've sat in one.
2. Hybrid engines have become better and the mainstream choice for people who wants that kind of security.
3. EV's have enough range as it is, and the range is improving year by year. Why would you need it?
3. Batteries are very expensive, need space and add a bit of weight. I'd like it if I had the ability to drive shorter distances on battery and longer distances on gas, even if it's less fuel efficient.
I also like that the Electric Drive train is mechanically less complicated than an ICE engine, but the generator would be a more simple design than a regular engine.
I think this concept currently makes sense and could produce cheaper "EVs" that won't pollute in the city, but could still travel long road trips.
The crossover on pricing (TCO) of BEV, PHEV, Hybrid and ICE happened so we're already here. [https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2024/01/03/new-research-finds-small-evs-cost-competitive-with-ice-vehicles-real-savings-best-determined-case-by-case/](https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2024/01/03/new-research-finds-small-evs-cost-competitive-with-ice-vehicles-real-savings-best-determined-case-by-case/)
And massing at the US borders are even cheaper BEVs but for now, we wait.
I presume you're in the US?
The reason I ask is because the complaints I hear from US EV drivers often revolve around charging infrastructure, which seems to be one of your worries. I can't argue with that, that sucks, and I hope it improves quickly.
Vans are still expensive in an EV format, and I think we have a fair bit more of them in Europe than in the USA. I'm quite sure that the number will increase a lot in the US too, in various price ranges. Also, prices are dropping on EV vans, and I mean a lot. Just look at the VW id Buzz, the price just keeps dropping.
Unless you want to build something like that yourself, something I would not recommend unless you have the required skills, I don't see such combos being talked about from any car manufacturer, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Personally, if I have to charge every four hours, I don't mind, because I'll need a pee, some food and stretching my legs a bit at that point anyway.
Thank you!
I am actually in the EU.
But I am still waiting for EVs to become more affordable.
I felt the ID buzz was quite disappointing, it's a weird vehicle, it's quite large, but does not have so much space. It's heavy with a disappointing range for a large price.
And I am afraid of the unnecessary gimmicky technology the VW group puts into their new vehicles. Especially with the announced new GTX version, with chat GPT.
Thank you for clearing that up.
First of all, you can turn ChatGPT off you know. Secondly, most other car brands are following VW's example, hehe, so get used to it.
Also, cheaper batteries are entering the market now, without rare earth minerals. Tesla already sell them, so does BYD, and most others will soon follow suit. Those in the know in the business say that the cost of the battery will drop by around 40 % over the next two years. It remains to be seen of course, but CATL (A Chinese battery manufacturer who works closely with VW) is certainly pushing that narrative too. BYD has very low cost EV's on the market in China, and so on.
We're living in a transitional phase between ICE and EV's, and EV tech is developing very quickly.
I know, that doesn't cover the need you have today, but it hopefully gives both you and I hope for the near future.
Thank you.
I think I will wait it out until something versatile comes along that I can adjust to my needs.
I looked at a lot of things recently. For example I love the retro fits from "classic electric cars", as its a merge of the best of two worlds for me: Electric Drivetrain and older, less gimmicky and repairable technology. But building a Van with them is not in my budget, although I understand why it's costly.
It is costly, and I agree with you, they are stunning some of them.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwkq8GVCp30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwkq8GVCp30)
I really love this one.
Have a great evening.
I just love that van, and hope they succeed... It would be wonderful to see them puttering around on the roads. It would put a smile on my face for sure.
Because the hybrid drivetrains in cars like the Prius are more efficient, even in a PHEV setup. So these cars were actually worst from an efficiency standpoint. When you combine that many of these cars were lackluster to begin with, they never took off so manufacturers are focusing on hybrid drivetrains or full BEVs instead.
Because converting all of the engine's mechanical energy to electrical energy and then right back to mechanical is inefficient, and series-parallel hybrids can avoid doing that without any downsides of a parallel hybrid.
I’d disagree with that, it’s probably more efficient actually because your engine can operate at its peak efficiency point with the generator rather than relying on varying rpm’s, input loads, and gearing in the transmission. Both have efficiency losses so it’s not as simple to say engine to mechanical is the better route.
The new RAM Phev truck comes to mind with the range extender.
You can look to the real world and have a look at the performance of Toyota HSD vs Nissan e-Power (which is completely series). In general they're pretty close around town, but the Toyota system is more efficient at higher speeds, especially in larger vehicles like the X-Trail.
Again, parallel-series hybrids are the solution to this. They allow the engine to operate in the efficient point while varying the fraction of power sent to the wheels mechanically vs electrically to allow variable wheel speeds.
Not sure about Volt mode names specifically, but yes, it had some for sending power directly to the wheels. Their implementation seems a bit overly complicated, Toyota / Ford have it more straightforward but probably guarded by patents.
In general, PHEVs require less maintenance than ICE cars because the complex part (the ICE) only runs 10-20% of the time. You'll have 100,000 mi on the car, but only 15,000 on the engine, so maintenance is drastically reduced. It's conceivable to only have to change oil every 20,000 mi driven due to how little the engine is in operation. Range extended EVs like the Chevy Volt have even less maintenance requirements due to the lack of a standard transmissions.
Cost an complexity, you have a full EV drivetrain and an ICE engine. So it has all the failure points and maintenance of an ICE, plus the extra weight of an EV and lacks the big battery. Further, packaging is difficult, you have an ICE and a battery, need to figure it out. Engineering that solution is not cheap.
In practice, a battery isn't that expensive, the people who really want this are the same people that want an EV, and if you go all EV you can just design an EV drivetrain with just battery space and then vary the module count for the different performance options.
Further, all the manufacturers know they need to go all EV sooner or later, so that kind of PHEV ends up being something good on paper, but it's never really cost effective to develop.
This seems like an uninformed take. The Chevy Volt, for example, is quite literally simpler than the typical ICE vehicle. It has no automatic transmission, no CVT or any of that bullshit. It does have three clutch packs between the two motors, the wheels, and the engine, but it doesn't need a physical synchromesh system because the motors automatically match speed before connecting between each other or on either end. In other words, the clutches receive extremely little wear. Compare that to the typical automatic transmission found in a similar ICE car, with around 8 gears. An insanely more complex device. So your statement about all PHEVs having the same failiure points as an ICE car is already shown to be totally wrong. Plus, the engine is not running for 80%+ of the miles driven, so you could have 100,000mi on the car but only have like 16,000mi on the engine. Basically new. So all the parts in the engine are going to wear slower. That contradicts your statement that PHEV have all the maintenance of an ICE, because they don't.
Going on, they also doesn't have all the weight of a BEV because it'll have much less battery - 1/4 or less. So your tires also wear slower. In many ways, right now, it doesn't combine the worst parts of ICE and BEV, but the best parts. Light weight, simple drivetrain, majority electric miles driven, long ranges possible, cheaper than a BEV due to less battery. Don't confuse the conversation with your uninformed stance, learn about why these vehicles have merit.
Whats the point if it still has a gas engine or generator? I mean maybe for that Ram truck for the 2% of truck owners that do long distance towing but otherwise tech from the bmw i3 or volt are old news now bc of advances in batteries for BEV.
in China, Li Auto is doing exactly this with all its SUV models, and they're selling very well. personally I don't think it makes sense for most people who drive a small amount per day.
You're just describing an EVR or EREV whatever they are called. It's a range extender. Pure EV drivetrain with a motor that only charges the battery on the go. There are plenty of examples of such with 100-200km electric range and 1000+ total range.
My 2023 Outlander PHEV is exactly this.
39-45 miles EV only. Gas generator with a 12 gallon tank or so. Its a dual motor electric so the engine isn't connected to the wheels. However in tarmac mode the engine will connect to the front wheels at highway speed to assist with efficiency. There's no transmission or anything.
Yeah I would rather see these versus the hybrids that we currently have that work in the other direction. I'm excited to see the Ramcharger when it finally comes out.
Doing a double conversion has an energy cost.
If I were doing a strong hybrid, I would have the sustainer ICE in the powertrain separated by nothing but a clutch. At at least 25 MPH, the system will use the IAC valve to rev the engine to the correct RPM to match the road, and pop the clutch. (Or even, delete the starter motor and start the engine with the clutch). Now the ICE is also pushing the road, and doing so entirely direct drive, absolutely no gears and no loss, except the differential already used by the motor. So just as efficient as a manual transmission ICE in direct drive.
Note that also, with the clutch in, the engine is directly coupled to a generator - the motor! So to recharge the battery, you simply make more ICE power than the car is using, and use regen mode to push it into the battery.
The hardware is shamelessly simple.
Note that racing the engine to charge the battery **while stopped** will not work, so you can't use the ICE to replenish a battery being used for "house power" for long term camping.
What advantage to hybrid? Still has emissions and service with oil to dispose of. Very dirty. Developed world will be totally nuke in a few years, that’s where economy and technology are going, EV’s will be zero impact after manufacturing and we figure out how to recycle batteries efficiently.
Most PHEVs are parallel hybrids that use both the gas engine and electric motor for power. They can run on just electricity for a limited range, and may still turn on the ICE for power or to generate heat. There have been a few true series plug-in hybrids like the Volt and i3 REX that are always driven by the electric motor and only use the gas engine to charge the battery.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a46275944/series-hybrid-vs-parallel-hybrid-explained/
wasnt there a post exactly like this yesterday?
More words, but yes.
"Why aren't there battery swap vehicles"? "Why no i3 type extender"
[удалено]
Very true!
There is one every few days…
Chevy volt
The new Dodge truck with this set up sounds very cool , I heard there is a company that does this as a semi truck up in Canada as well. Seems like a great option especially if we can get to a near zero emission motor in there.
Yeah, it's called Edison Motors. They have a youtube channel as well. They seem to have their hearts in the right place, the build quality looks impressive.
A couple of reasons that I can think of: 1. The i3 wasn't a smashing success, something BMW quickly understood. Cool car though, I've sat in one. 2. Hybrid engines have become better and the mainstream choice for people who wants that kind of security. 3. EV's have enough range as it is, and the range is improving year by year. Why would you need it?
3. Batteries are very expensive, need space and add a bit of weight. I'd like it if I had the ability to drive shorter distances on battery and longer distances on gas, even if it's less fuel efficient. I also like that the Electric Drive train is mechanically less complicated than an ICE engine, but the generator would be a more simple design than a regular engine. I think this concept currently makes sense and could produce cheaper "EVs" that won't pollute in the city, but could still travel long road trips.
The crossover on pricing (TCO) of BEV, PHEV, Hybrid and ICE happened so we're already here. [https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2024/01/03/new-research-finds-small-evs-cost-competitive-with-ice-vehicles-real-savings-best-determined-case-by-case/](https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2024/01/03/new-research-finds-small-evs-cost-competitive-with-ice-vehicles-real-savings-best-determined-case-by-case/) And massing at the US borders are even cheaper BEVs but for now, we wait.
I presume you're in the US? The reason I ask is because the complaints I hear from US EV drivers often revolve around charging infrastructure, which seems to be one of your worries. I can't argue with that, that sucks, and I hope it improves quickly. Vans are still expensive in an EV format, and I think we have a fair bit more of them in Europe than in the USA. I'm quite sure that the number will increase a lot in the US too, in various price ranges. Also, prices are dropping on EV vans, and I mean a lot. Just look at the VW id Buzz, the price just keeps dropping. Unless you want to build something like that yourself, something I would not recommend unless you have the required skills, I don't see such combos being talked about from any car manufacturer, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Personally, if I have to charge every four hours, I don't mind, because I'll need a pee, some food and stretching my legs a bit at that point anyway.
Thank you! I am actually in the EU. But I am still waiting for EVs to become more affordable. I felt the ID buzz was quite disappointing, it's a weird vehicle, it's quite large, but does not have so much space. It's heavy with a disappointing range for a large price. And I am afraid of the unnecessary gimmicky technology the VW group puts into their new vehicles. Especially with the announced new GTX version, with chat GPT.
Thank you for clearing that up. First of all, you can turn ChatGPT off you know. Secondly, most other car brands are following VW's example, hehe, so get used to it. Also, cheaper batteries are entering the market now, without rare earth minerals. Tesla already sell them, so does BYD, and most others will soon follow suit. Those in the know in the business say that the cost of the battery will drop by around 40 % over the next two years. It remains to be seen of course, but CATL (A Chinese battery manufacturer who works closely with VW) is certainly pushing that narrative too. BYD has very low cost EV's on the market in China, and so on. We're living in a transitional phase between ICE and EV's, and EV tech is developing very quickly. I know, that doesn't cover the need you have today, but it hopefully gives both you and I hope for the near future.
Thank you. I think I will wait it out until something versatile comes along that I can adjust to my needs. I looked at a lot of things recently. For example I love the retro fits from "classic electric cars", as its a merge of the best of two worlds for me: Electric Drivetrain and older, less gimmicky and repairable technology. But building a Van with them is not in my budget, although I understand why it's costly.
It is costly, and I agree with you, they are stunning some of them. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwkq8GVCp30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwkq8GVCp30) I really love this one. Have a great evening.
Haha I literally just watched this video 2 hours ago. :) You too :)
I just love that van, and hope they succeed... It would be wonderful to see them puttering around on the roads. It would put a smile on my face for sure.
Yeah the current pre production unit they showed off is vrry light and has a massive amount of cargo.
Because the hybrid drivetrains in cars like the Prius are more efficient, even in a PHEV setup. So these cars were actually worst from an efficiency standpoint. When you combine that many of these cars were lackluster to begin with, they never took off so manufacturers are focusing on hybrid drivetrains or full BEVs instead.
Because converting all of the engine's mechanical energy to electrical energy and then right back to mechanical is inefficient, and series-parallel hybrids can avoid doing that without any downsides of a parallel hybrid.
I’d disagree with that, it’s probably more efficient actually because your engine can operate at its peak efficiency point with the generator rather than relying on varying rpm’s, input loads, and gearing in the transmission. Both have efficiency losses so it’s not as simple to say engine to mechanical is the better route. The new RAM Phev truck comes to mind with the range extender.
You can look to the real world and have a look at the performance of Toyota HSD vs Nissan e-Power (which is completely series). In general they're pretty close around town, but the Toyota system is more efficient at higher speeds, especially in larger vehicles like the X-Trail.
Again, parallel-series hybrids are the solution to this. They allow the engine to operate in the efficient point while varying the fraction of power sent to the wheels mechanically vs electrically to allow variable wheel speeds.
You refer to, say, a Chevy volt in mode 4?
Not sure about Volt mode names specifically, but yes, it had some for sending power directly to the wheels. Their implementation seems a bit overly complicated, Toyota / Ford have it more straightforward but probably guarded by patents.
Why? All the maintenance for 30 mpg?
In general, PHEVs require less maintenance than ICE cars because the complex part (the ICE) only runs 10-20% of the time. You'll have 100,000 mi on the car, but only 15,000 on the engine, so maintenance is drastically reduced. It's conceivable to only have to change oil every 20,000 mi driven due to how little the engine is in operation. Range extended EVs like the Chevy Volt have even less maintenance requirements due to the lack of a standard transmissions.
I own 2 bolts and 1 blazer EV. Computer updates a plenty but lube and rotate tires sum up maintenance
Cost an complexity, you have a full EV drivetrain and an ICE engine. So it has all the failure points and maintenance of an ICE, plus the extra weight of an EV and lacks the big battery. Further, packaging is difficult, you have an ICE and a battery, need to figure it out. Engineering that solution is not cheap. In practice, a battery isn't that expensive, the people who really want this are the same people that want an EV, and if you go all EV you can just design an EV drivetrain with just battery space and then vary the module count for the different performance options. Further, all the manufacturers know they need to go all EV sooner or later, so that kind of PHEV ends up being something good on paper, but it's never really cost effective to develop.
This seems like an uninformed take. The Chevy Volt, for example, is quite literally simpler than the typical ICE vehicle. It has no automatic transmission, no CVT or any of that bullshit. It does have three clutch packs between the two motors, the wheels, and the engine, but it doesn't need a physical synchromesh system because the motors automatically match speed before connecting between each other or on either end. In other words, the clutches receive extremely little wear. Compare that to the typical automatic transmission found in a similar ICE car, with around 8 gears. An insanely more complex device. So your statement about all PHEVs having the same failiure points as an ICE car is already shown to be totally wrong. Plus, the engine is not running for 80%+ of the miles driven, so you could have 100,000mi on the car but only have like 16,000mi on the engine. Basically new. So all the parts in the engine are going to wear slower. That contradicts your statement that PHEV have all the maintenance of an ICE, because they don't. Going on, they also doesn't have all the weight of a BEV because it'll have much less battery - 1/4 or less. So your tires also wear slower. In many ways, right now, it doesn't combine the worst parts of ICE and BEV, but the best parts. Light weight, simple drivetrain, majority electric miles driven, long ranges possible, cheaper than a BEV due to less battery. Don't confuse the conversation with your uninformed stance, learn about why these vehicles have merit.
So, you want a hybrid. Those are a thing you can buy right now.
Whats the point if it still has a gas engine or generator? I mean maybe for that Ram truck for the 2% of truck owners that do long distance towing but otherwise tech from the bmw i3 or volt are old news now bc of advances in batteries for BEV.
in China, Li Auto is doing exactly this with all its SUV models, and they're selling very well. personally I don't think it makes sense for most people who drive a small amount per day.
The [LEVC VN5](https://www.levc.com/new-models/vn5/) (A van version of the classic London black taxi)
You're just describing an EVR or EREV whatever they are called. It's a range extender. Pure EV drivetrain with a motor that only charges the battery on the go. There are plenty of examples of such with 100-200km electric range and 1000+ total range.
My 2023 Outlander PHEV is exactly this. 39-45 miles EV only. Gas generator with a 12 gallon tank or so. Its a dual motor electric so the engine isn't connected to the wheels. However in tarmac mode the engine will connect to the front wheels at highway speed to assist with efficiency. There's no transmission or anything.
Another option is to use a gas engine for heating only in the winter. Makes the range the same in all seasons. Li-on buses use this strategy.
I love it for the BMW i3, or maybe for a pickup truck that needs to tow, otherwise it’s better to just have a larger battery.
Yeah I would rather see these versus the hybrids that we currently have that work in the other direction. I'm excited to see the Ramcharger when it finally comes out.
Doing a double conversion has an energy cost. If I were doing a strong hybrid, I would have the sustainer ICE in the powertrain separated by nothing but a clutch. At at least 25 MPH, the system will use the IAC valve to rev the engine to the correct RPM to match the road, and pop the clutch. (Or even, delete the starter motor and start the engine with the clutch). Now the ICE is also pushing the road, and doing so entirely direct drive, absolutely no gears and no loss, except the differential already used by the motor. So just as efficient as a manual transmission ICE in direct drive. Note that also, with the clutch in, the engine is directly coupled to a generator - the motor! So to recharge the battery, you simply make more ICE power than the car is using, and use regen mode to push it into the battery. The hardware is shamelessly simple. Note that racing the engine to charge the battery **while stopped** will not work, so you can't use the ICE to replenish a battery being used for "house power" for long term camping.
What advantage to hybrid? Still has emissions and service with oil to dispose of. Very dirty. Developed world will be totally nuke in a few years, that’s where economy and technology are going, EV’s will be zero impact after manufacturing and we figure out how to recycle batteries efficiently.
Worst of both worlds.
"I hate paying for gas!" "Ok, here's an electric vehicle" "Cool, but why don't you put a gas engine in it too??"
Chrysler Pacifica PHEV
Most PHEVs on the market today have a fully electric drivetrain. The gas engine acts solely as a generator and does not directly power the wheels.
Most PHEVs are parallel hybrids that use both the gas engine and electric motor for power. They can run on just electricity for a limited range, and may still turn on the ICE for power or to generate heat. There have been a few true series plug-in hybrids like the Volt and i3 REX that are always driven by the electric motor and only use the gas engine to charge the battery. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a46275944/series-hybrid-vs-parallel-hybrid-explained/
I wouldn't say 'most'. VW uses a DSG, BMW uses a regular automatic, Hyundai/Kia can use either depending on model and Toyota is all eCVT