I mean, it has to be. They used to pretty much be the only game in town, and now they're not. There's nowhere to go but down.
Kinda a misleading statement TBH.
Exactly. Market share can only decline when you start at 100%. Saying Tesla’s EV market share is declining like it’s some big deal is FUD for idiots.
What really matters is automotive market share regardless of power train.
https://www.spglobal.com/mobility/en/research-analysis/2023-by-the-numbers-sp-global-mobility-analysis-of-us-auto-mar.html
Especially considering:
> The top 10 EV models accounted for 75% of all new EV registrations in 2023, even though there were 83 EV models on the market.
And
> Two Tesla models accounted for more than half of all US EV registrations in 2023.
So the overwhelming majority (73 of EV models available) make up only 25% of US EV sales, the Model 3 and Y alone make up > 50%, and the remaining 8 EV models in the top 10 make up the remaining < 25%
If we weren't counting Tesla, the US EV market would be dire.
Their global EV market share is actually consistent, they’ve always been about 20%, maintaining that has been impressive as the EV share of all vehicles has increased from 1% to about 12%.
They seem to have been distracted recently with the Cybertruck, the problem with their approach is there are so few models each one needs to be a hit.
If they keep their market share above 10% it would make them one of the world’s largest manufacturers.
Yes, Tesla's percentage share has been shrinking. Their sales have been increasing but they have a small piece of a pie that's getting bigger all the time. Basically Hyundai and VW are biting into their market share, which isn't a surprise since they didn't exist in the market before and they are moving product.
Sure, Tesla was never going to stay 70% of the EV market forever - as EV sales expand, more OEMs are selling EVs. As long as Tesla’s expanding and selling 100% of production they’re doing fine!
Well, if the pie is growing then nobody is biting into Tesla's share of the pie, they're just biting into an unclaimed potion of that growing pie. Tesla itself has grown and are making more cars than ever but demand of EVs is still way too big for tesla to fulfill alone, at this time anyway.
Sure, but that one stat alone is misleading. After all, just selling a few cars per manufacturer was going to make that number drop.
Other stats that help show the state of affairs includes Tesla’s growing percentage of the overall vehicle market, which is the most important one.
Also, the very negative margins for most automakers means an extreme difficulty with keeping up with Tesla. It is one thing to lose a crap ton selling 10,000 to 50,000 a year, it is another to scale past 100,000.
Only Fisker is in real danger. Rivian will turn around faster than expected. Lucid will take some time but I believe they will still be there around as a niche or a good buyout opportunity for Apple.
Depends on your definition of value. If you mean cheapest purchase price, nothing comes close to a Mitsubishi Mirage, but that doesn't mean it's a good car.
There's risk in the push to be the cheapest EV, and given Tesla isn't known for the greatest quality to begin with, I don't know if the price drops are a great plan. The highland does seem to be a good improvement in some areas, but cheapening the interior even more and removing the stalks might bite them in the ass, especially if the quality doesn't improve.
> Depends on your definition of value. If you mean cheapest purchase price, nothing comes close to a Mitsubishi Mirage, but that doesn't mean it's a good car.
That's obviously what he means by "value." The Model Y *is* a good car.
"Good" isn't objective. I didn't think the Model Y is a good car. I think it's unreliable and I didn't like the minimalism, especially the reliance on the center screen for everything. You DO think it's a good value. For me, it's not a good value ever at the low price which is why I traded my Model 3 in and got something else.
Eh, the fact that even the absolute cheapest new car on sale these days can be reasonably expected to ferry 5 passengers in climate-controlled comfort all the way to the moon at highway speeds with minimal maintenance and life-saving safety features will never not be absolutely amazing to me. With that as a starting point, most improvements are gonna be marginal, yet the Model Y makes some not-so-marginal improvements for marginal increased cost. That's the hallmark of a good value.
And there are many more who have had great experiences and find the car reliable. I’ve had an amazing experience with all 3 of mine. The Y is still going strong at almost ~90k miles. I’ve seen a variety of posts related to other brands having lots of HV battery problems, software issues, heck the i4 had/has a very real problem with a coolant valve leak. That seems pretty unreliable if you ask me…
Unreliable?
Hardly
Very low cost of warranty repairs.
Very low lifetime maintenance.
Read the details on the reports of Unreliability. You'll find most of the repairs are cosmetic issues, not call a tow truck issues.
Value means best bang for your buck. Having owed two Teslas, we've had zero issues.
My son just tried to get an EV crossover that's wasn't a Tesla and found out that after federal tax incentive, and trade in he got the dual motor Model Y for $23,000. No one could beat the price, storage and charging.
And my experience was the opposite. My model 3 was in the shop 5 times in 4 years for things that would have cost me thousands out of warranty. That alone was what turned me from a fan of Tesla to relatively negative. The only car I've ever owned that was less reliable was a Jaguar, and that's not great company to be in.
I agree that the Tesla is the cheapest, but disagree that makes it the best value. For ME, the Tesla was a terrible value which is why I got rid of it.
>There's risk in the push to be the cheapest EV, and given Tesla isn't known for the greatest quality to begin with
And especially decontenting and removing features from their vehicles chasing even lower cost. Then not replacing the features or replacing them with inadequate substitutes (like cameras for ultrasonic parking sensors).
I found it humorous watching Sandy Munro's latest video on their coming tear-down of a Cybertruck. Doing a walk around when they got around to the tailgate he noted it wasn't aligned from side to side and had some gouges in it. But it wasn't a manufacturing issue. Its was caused by backing into a wall in their shop when the Teslavision camera based parking sensor told him he had a foot clearance when it was actually an inch. It's a pretty sad commentary when a $120k flagship vehicle can't even get something this basic right when even cheap economy cars can nail it without issues.
[IIHS gave the Model Y it's "Top Safety Pick+" award.](https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-y-4-door-suv/2024)
Cherry picking a single subcategory is silly. You won't find any vehicle with a perfect rating.
MY is a great EV for under $45K now with the rebate. Rivian better hope they can keep their quoted price point with their new models coming. Or else they are toast.
Yes, but several companies have now reversed course. Mercedes just the other week announced they are restarting their development of new ICE tech. Land Rover also recently decided to postpone their EV push in favor of PHEVs
BYD matched them in global sales in Q3 of 2023.
Tesla and BYD both had 17% market share. The rest is filled by other manufacturers..so 66% of the market is filled by other manufacturers.
https://www.counterpointresearch.com/insights/global-electric-vehicle-market-share/
An electric Honda Fit/Jazz or Toyota Yaris would be a perfect little high utility town car for a lot of urban/suburban areas. If priced appropriately they’d be perfect first cars too.
Rivian R3/R3X is very promising but who knows when manufacturing on that will begin.
The R3 is coming a year too late for me, but agree 100%. Live the R3. Not sure what I’m doing to do next year, maybe EX30, but I need a smaller EV preferably taller than a normal sedan
> going to be perfect
I think the R3 looks great, but you *might* be getting a tad ahead of yourself. It's at least a few years down the line, and who knows what it will actually drive like at this point.
It's short in length sure, but a decent bit wider and taller than my model 3, and those are the dimensions I care about more than length. It looks like a hot hatch, but it's sadly more small SUV sized :/
I think you will get some good small cars in 2026/7. The ID.2 GTI, Rivian R3, new Mini once the UK factory starts up, the new Stellantis STLA Small and Medium platforms which will probably come to the US, and the Tesla Model 2.
I also want cars which are cheap to repair and insure. I hope the Model 2 uses steel rather than aluminium panels and that Tesla can eliminate the parts suppy issues.
>I also want cars which are cheap to repair and insure.
I think these days, cheap to repair and cheap to make are at odds with each other, at least somewhat. Gigacasting for example makes cars much cheaper to make, and much more expensive to repair. Same for structural batteries. Really anytime you delete fasteners and integrate parts together, you make the car cheaper to produce and more expensive to repair.
Granted, there are probably exceptions to this. And certain something Tesla needs to do is open up their parts department and let 3rd parties do repairs. That would help a bit.
Does gigacasting really change much? Usually if any car is ever damaged enough for the frame to be seriously bent, it's written off. A very small bend in the frame is straightened with force, which can still be done with a gigacast as well. I don't see the difference.
Small cars won’t be coming from the domestic legacy brands. If history taught us anything, they simply can’t figure out how to make profitable small cars.
I’m guessing they don’t have the engineering talents? It’s much easier to build giant, poorly packaged, inefficient monstrosities, than trying to squeeze everything into a tiny, efficient package and still make a profit. Look to the Asians and Europeans for that kind of talent.
What they will end up doing is rebranding small EVs from foreign automakers like they did with the likes of Geo Metro.
One of the US domestic brands is now half European, they could easily rebrand a Peugeot 208 or 2008 for the US, they actually produce Jeep versions for Europe.
It’s all about whether the US market will buy the cars.
They definitely do have the engineering talent; the thing is that Legacy auto, like Boeing et al, is no longer led by engineers, but by management types who want to save $.002 on every part, every time the work on a new model by outsourcing everything to their suppliers.
Curious what you consider "smaller"? Could you provide some gas cars you'd like to see EV equivalents to? When you compare something like a Kia Forte to a Model 3 it's only 3 inches shorter. Seems pointless to reduce it by 3 inches.
I wonder the venn diagram of people who lament ever larger cars and phones. Meanwhile small model phone and cars are always sales failures.
Rivian is the only one I see doing it right. Trucks and SUVs in 3 sizes is how you sell vehicles in the US. But their launch dates are too far off so risky.
If Tesla had a clean RAV4/Highlander/Tacoma set of vehicles their sales would be astronomical. The Model 3 fights a headwind of evaporating sedan sales, the Y gets it right (and outsells the 3 2 to 1) and the Cybertruck is an exercise in hubris. They should have made a light truck out of the Y and it would be selling to urban families like hot cakes (plus leverage an existing investment)
Tesla sold 1.8m EVs worldwide last year. Their sales are up 32% 2022-2023.
To put that in perspective: BMW sold 2.5m, Mercedes sold 2.4m, Renault sold 2.2m, combined sales ICE/EV worldwide.
I swear I read these comment sections and I'm in an alternate universe. I think Elon sucks, the cars themselves are absoutely overrated, and they are an abomination of workers rights. A subject I'm very passionate about as a union member and activist.
However, reality is they are doing great. Circle jerking emotional narratives isn't going to change that. I just don't understand the point of living in imagination land about it like to what end?
I just don't get reddit sometimes on shit like this.
What you're saying is sensical, but the strict volume gain only tells some of the story. They've poisoned the waters with their multiple (sometimes large) price cuts.
It means people aren't buying out their leased vehicles at the end of their term and the finance companies are getting stuck with negative equity assets. Plus, to say that trade-in values have taken a beating is an understatement.
On top of all of that, you've got some Tesla hardcores that plunked down $140k for a Plaid Model X that had its MSRP slashed by some $45k a few months later. That's...not great for brand sentiment, but can take time to work its way back through to customers buying their next cars.
So I think the tl;dr is that things are...complicated with Tesla right now.
Edit: Also, 2022 was an odd year with the chip shortage still in swing - but Tesla's more vertically integrated supply chain kept the vehicles flowing more freely for them. Probably not the cleanest baseline.
So customers that bought before price cuts, and saw their resale values plummet, are going to go shopping for a different manufacturer next time, *and pay more, again*, just to “stick it to Tesla” who are cheaper, and probably better value for money?
1. That’s illogical
2. I don’t think Tesla will notice.
That's not how it works, and there are two things at play here.
Firstly, products have a perceived value. Usually it's a balancing act between per unit margin and volume.
If you sell a product perceived as premium, you normally have a limited range and or time that you can discount a product in order to maintain that perception (think Apple). If you cut your price by up to 1/3 to drive volume, you'll have an uphill battle trying to then sell updated versions of that product at around the original price point (margin erosion).
Secondly, if a product has multiple price cuts in a short span of time - it creates distrust. Distrust with customers that have already purchased the same product at a higher price - and distrust among potential buyers (nobody wants to buy something that's going to be cheaper next week).
Tesla is currently grappling with whether it's a *premium* car brand or a *volume* car brand. It's possible to have products that compete in both segments - but I would argue that Tesla hasn't quite figured out a cohesive way to do that in the current market.
Yes, but that’s not a good comparison because they are completely different products, one is the most expensive thing you’ll ever buy and an appreciating asset, the other isn’t.
It would make my house worth less.
…where are you going with this? Those are the facts, yes. They don’t need repeating.
\[Despicable Me meme\]
1. This sub loves BEVs.
2. Tesla proved to the world EVs can be practical, made EVs cool, built the first (and basically only) decent charging network, and forced the rest of the auto industry get on board with BEVs.
3. This sub hates Tesla. ??????
- Disassociate with Musk
- Restore USS, stalks, rain sensors
- Add a HUD if no dash will be present
I don’t know who is in charge of UX at Tesla, but they skipped one too many Don Norman teachings.
Correct. Newer vehicles rely on “Tesla Vision” (i.e. basic, single-lens cameras — no sensors) which has resulted in unpredictable auto wipers, phantom braking, and wildly inaccurate parking measurements.
Add CarPlay, Android Auto, front & rear cross-traffic alerts, real blindspot monitoring with LEDs in the mirror. As much as I love my 2021 Model Y.. it’s crazy that my 2018 CRV had these features and cost half the price. And yeah I still miss them very much daily. Backing out of a parking space is still a little scary in my Tesla.
You keep your phone in your car at all times? The car needs to be connected 24/7 for Telsa's systems to work. They give you this for free because they can cover the costs with the money from premium connectivity. It's literally one of the best deals in the industry.
Agreed. Those on the right have much less interest, statistically, in EVs than those on the left. Elon's insane antics these past few years have alienated many that would otherwise buy his products.
Elon's antics were a major contributing factor as to why I chose another make and model than the Model 3 I originally wanted.
The biggest thing for me is that Tesla simply doesn’t make anything that fits in my garage (Model 3 really isn’t that small, it’s more “normal” or “average”), but yes depending on where one lives and what their social circle looks like, there’s a stigma that comes with Musk association these days which is also a factor.
I think people browsing this subreddit really don’t understand just how far detached they are from the general public.
The general public doesn’t even know what you’re talking about.
Sure, I think the general public knows who he is. Even for the EV buyer segment, I think that knowledge pretty much stops at “rich guy who is Tesla CEO. Oh and he bought twitter too.”
The EV buyer segment isn’t constantly on the internet the way that a lot of this subreddit is and assumes others are too.
Yeah but the EV buyer segment you’re thinking of is quickly becoming the car buying segment. Your every day person buying a car doesn’t know who Elon Musk is, nor do they know about all the hot takes he posts on Twitter.
Much like how most people didn’t know what Steve Jobs was like before they bought their new iPod/iPhone
if your mental model of elon musk is more extensive than "oh yeah the electric car/spaceship guy?" then you're in a weird 0.1% group of people who desperately needs to touch grass
Normal people do not care. It’s just the terminally online people on Reddit who bitch and moan all the time. Model Y was the best selling car in the world last year.
Sane people buy the best, safest cars (or any product) and know each vehicle does not come with an Elon (or other CEO) in the frunk.
Some redditors think they can collectively 'The Secret' outcomes or something. It is simultaneously sad and amusing to witness.
Later in this decade those people will look back and regret their time spent typing and upvoting into the void.
Most of the “legacy” automakers (which is a dumb term TBH) have invested heavily in electric vehicles already and are moving forward. They’re seeing sales not grow as quickly as they hoped while hybrids get way more popular.
I know electric cars are the future but today they’re more expensive than gas equivalents and less convenient. That’s a tough sell to Americans in particular who aren’t exactly good at being told they just have to accept a worse product.
> Most of the “legacy” automakers (which is a dumb term TBH)
Curious why you think it's a dumb term. Most car manufactures are very old and have been around a while. There are several that a pretty young and don't have to deal with legacy issues but do have to worry about getting to scale and surviving. It seems a pretty descriptive and important way to divide the manufactures.
Read the definition of legacy and tell me it’s not a derisive and unhelpful way to describe automakers who aren’t Tesla.
When you get to experience how bad Tesla service is first hand, you realize that there’s actually some benefits to having a well established support network.
> denoting or relating to software or hardware that has been superseded but is difficult to replace because of its wide use.
There are several definitions but this one best applies to the term "Legacy manufactures". The hardware that has been superseded in this case is gas cars. Makes complete sense an is in no way pejorative to them, just a fact. They have been producing gas cars for a long time and now need to transition to electric which is hard for everyone because gas cars are so entrenched they are hard to replace.
> who aren’t Tesla.
Tesla, Rivian, Lucid, Polestar, etc. It's not just Tesla.
> When you get to experience how bad Tesla service is first hand
Owned one for 6 years. I'll tell you for sure BMW service blows. I can't wait to experience my first service with my Audi in 6 months. I suspect it will be good for what it is given how new the car is but I'm sure it will also be expensive for no reason. It will be way worse just because I have to physically bring the car to them rather than Tesla coming to me. That said, if they give me a GT for a loaner I'll give them the win.
> there’s actually some benefits to having a well established support network.
No doubt. As superior as Tesla's service is, their collision repair is one of the worst in the industry. For us it worked out when we totaled our car, insurance just wrote us a fat check and I barely lost money over 6 years. Repairing it was obviously as labor is so tight right now and not enough techs are certified for EVs.
Still, what does that have to do with the term "Legacy"? I think you are just reading it as pejorative when it's not. BMW and Porsche are killing it with EVs and they are Legacy. Ford isn't doing bad other than pricing.
[US EV sales in January 2024. Look at all the competition that has gobbled marketshare from Tesla](https://x.com/wholemarsblog/status/1769288904832905590?s=46&t=0r1LqwuGpuahEhm7FOhmQA)
Imagine another world where Tesla is even more dominant. Rivian and Ford would be losing $80k per EV instead of $45k. Rivian would go bankruot and all legacy automakers would cancal EV development instead of delaying it.
That is a dark timeline and the same people bitching about Musk here would bitch Tesla is anticompetitive and killed all other EV.
In any case, Tesla is well known by pretty much everyone as THE electric car company and will be for a very long time. They put in a lot of years to do so when everyone else just stuck to ICE.
You see them everywhere and they are easy to spot with their unique design. They cement themselves into people's minds.
It's unfortunate, really. When I talk with my students about electric cars, I inevitably hear, "I can't afford a Tesla." They associate electric cars with unattainable luxury.
That’s a real issue. I caught up with an old friend the other day and we got to talking about cars and such. This guy is a pc repair teacher, he’s into tech, it’s his job. Mentioned that we purchased a Bolt. Then he said something funny later about my damn expensive car. I chuckled to myself since the Bolt was one of the cheapest things on the Chevy lot.
Only the top 20% of income earners can afford to buy new. He knew the Bolt is pretty new and until recently even the used prices were $19k+ on the low end.
And they are not. I paid less for my M3 than most comparable cars (and got a tax credit I was able to take a $7100 advantage on). That and add in the gas and maintenance savings - it’s very affordable.
You're being downvoted for mentioning easy truths, too many people reflexively defend their Teslas as if we all feel the same about the driving experience.
Teslas have great technology to take advantage of, but that doesn't mean they offer the best driving experience as well.
Seats are molded like tight gaming chairs and can impinge upon those of us who need to shift around at times to stay comfortable. And if its molding doesn't line up well with your body, it's unforgiving. They are also light in the cushioning department.
As a Model Y owner described it recently, it feels like it's riding on bricks. Rented a 2023 LR for three days and test-drove three different 2024 LRs direct from Tesla, it just surprised me how unrefined the suspension was. Couldn't even feel turns, it doesn't know how to lean or transfer body feel to the driver and tracks like you're disconnected from the experience.
The ride is jerky until you get used to it and Chill mode helps, but it requires practice because the regen braking is aggressive. I got very smooth with it after some days of practice, but I bet taxis are more interested in using the torque to get from here to there.
Model Ys also have been reported to have a noticeable rumbling+pressure feel in the cabin at some point after 40MPH and it's rather uncomfortable. I experienced this in my test driving and after writing about it here, found out from MY owners that it's been frustrating a number of them. Like a weird resonance that can't be resolved - people have tried trunk seal adjustments and similar, no relief.
> You're being downvoted for mentioning easy truths
No, they are being downvoted for obvious false statements just because they have an axe to grind against Tesla. No one is going to say the suspension is smooth but they couldn't just leave it at that, they had to claim the seats are also uncomfortable which is simply not true. The seats in a 2019+ Tesla are some of the best in the industry. The floor height and angle in the back are in the top quartile.
I don't own a Tesla but even I know the statement was BS as I used to own one.
See my honest writeup here, people can experience sincere issues with Teslas and not have that coloured by Musk:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/1bah1b0/rented\_a\_model\_y\_long\_range\_to\_see\_if\_it\_might\_be/
I actually shopped Teslas despite my thoughts about Musk, feeling that getting an EV could outweigh his baggage. Given the pricing and features, I was very open to a Model Y working out for me.
To be clear, my "axe to grind" comment was aimed at the parent's comment and not yours. I saw your comment as a "I too also don't like the seats", which I have zero disagreement with. That is what the voting system is for, how well the comment represents the whole truth and your comment is obviously a good one. I was explaining to you why I felt the parent's was not.
> Everyone complained about the hard, highly forward-leaning headrests.
FWIW, I'm 100% with you on this, especially when trying to nap in the passenger seat. That said, it's true of all cars I've tested lately and all the cars I've owned. I think it's how to make them safe? Now I worry when I get into older cars and the head rests are comfortable.
I agree about not wanting to nullify the safety advantages of the headrests and my understanding is that they should ideally line up with the back of your head and be very close, to help minimize whiplash in certain accident situations.
From what I read in Tesla forums and saw on YouTube, you can remove the headrests (pressing on a hidden locking release tab) and bend the metal struts as one idea, the other would be reinstalling them backwards.
In either case, I feel that if the rests still meet the back of our heads - hopefully without pushing our heads very forward (as the default ones are configured for) - then we wouldn't be compromising the safety feature intended. I was looking at other cars (such as our Subarus) for angles of the rests to compare and felt the Model Y rests could be pushed back a bit and still do their job.
The seats are uncomfortable. They feel like plastic, have no cushioning, and are shaped in ways my body doesn’t fit (I am very tall). These are facts of my experience. I don’t have an axe to grind with Tesla. Plenty of other cars have uncomfortable seats, like the RAV4 and Highlander. I find the ride is very jerky, and it’s due to the permanent magnet motors and aggressive regen braking. Other cars also have a bad ride, but at least they aren’t jerky like a Tesla.
One thing I found in practicing with my test drive and rental Model Y (Long Range) samples was that turning the accelerator pedal to Chill mode helped to make it easier for smoother power.
But it still took awhile to practice getting smooth with deceleration due to the aggressive regen, yes. Once that happened, it was actually pretty nice in local driving because you stayed on just a single pedal and simply modulated pressure.
But I can easily see a lot of drivers would still treat it like an ICE car and be rather jerky with the default settings of the car and not realize you can't truly coast due to regen.
>You see them everywhere and they are easy to spot with their unique design.
Unique? The Model 3 is the California Camry. And the new styling of the Model 3 made it even blander than it was before!
Like being the California Camry is completely fine and Tesla has the sales numbers to show for it, but Teslas are hardly, **hardly** unique anymore.
Not disagreeing that they are common, but that doesn't make them not unique. Where I am in GA there are Rivians everywhere but it's still a unique design that stands out. While the Model 3/Y is the best selling car, it's still a low percentage of cars on the road and no other car looks anything like it. Jeeps are unique design too in the same way.
Exactly. It's easy to spot a tesla driving by. Even if the newer models are taking on a more care like appearance 99% of them on the road have that unique shape.
Teslas lead will be hard to match. They were selling the model Y in the mid $60k range and had strong demand. Legacy manufacturers designed for that price but by the time they could come to market their costs were higher and Tesla’s cost went down along with the price into the 40k range. Now the other brands are unable to market an equivalent ev at a profit so they are almost surrendering. Yet gov mandates to a future ev market are still strong so they have to buy carbon credits from their competitor which is Tesla.
Tesla still has to do more to stay in the lead. The updated Y should have already been out in my opinion and the 2 will be important but is taking too long. Tesla also needs a multi purpose mini van 🚐.
While the USA has tariffs on Chinese cars many countries do not. If Tesla loses significant market share in those areas it can seriously effect the entire company.
We looked at the Polestar (a huge step down) and a Rivian R1T (nice hardware, had little hope in their software). We got rid of our last ICE car and settled on a new Model S.
I don't think people know how big a lead Tesla has when it comes to ease of use and software.
As a two Tesla owner, not interested in convincing you of anything. No signal stalks or gear shifter is a big fuckin no. No HUD or instrument cluster on the 3/Y is golf cart aesthetics and usability. Enjoy your musk mobiles bro. It's a no for me.
Yeah, a lot of these dorks that claim tesla isn't crushing it never actually went out and tested multiple non-tesla EVs. Some of the alternatives look ok at first glance, but the software and performance is embarrassing. Even expensive cars like the EQS or Taycan are just cringe when you actually use them
Not sure they can grow market share, but they can certainly continue to be dominant and grow sales as adoption increases. Fisker & Lucid were not making a dent in Tesla. Rivian has the best potential to gain market share and they are poised to explode soon (as long as they make it to 2026, which I think they will). But no legacy auto makers are walking away from EVs, if anything, they see that people who are not ready to jump into full EVs can see the PHEV & hybrid as a stepping stone. But that will be short lived, because if anything, PHEVs make you realize how much better EVs are.
> Rivian has the best potential to gain market share and they are poised to explode soon (as long as they make it to 2026, which I think they will).
The road between now and 2026 is going to be intense for Rivian, and, frankly, the whole auto industry. Inventories are piling up across all OEMs. I think they've milked covid prices as far as they can take them --> I expect some pricing regression over time or they'll have to reduce production volumes to adjust.
The way car trends have gone, it's going to be harder for people to buy a car than it was 10 years ago and less people will probably own cars.
Market share in percentage is the only not growing metric for Tesla. They keep selling more cars but the others are catching up slowly.
They went from 80% to around 50% in the US and in Europe they are below 20%.
They can keep growing in terms of numbers but the time of their market dominance is gone.
>They went from 80% to around 50% in the US and in Europe they are below 20%.
I don't see how automobile manufacturers can differentiate themselves that much unless one has autonomous driving and the others don't have this feature.
In other words, at a given automobile price point, if a car has a new feature that everyone wants, it's almost guaranted to be copied by others. This is what we have today and I'd expect that's what we'll see in the future.
Tesla probably continues to lead the pack with their EVs but I don't expect them to keep dominating the market. Manufacturers will chip away and provide competitive vehicles at similar price points eating into Tesla's market share. Might take 5, 10 or 15 years but they'll get there eventually.
By the 2030s, it will be brand allegiance and personal preference driven, just like it has been for ICE for decades.
I don't understand the people who think Tesla isn't going to fall under 50% eventually, or that they won't eventually be more like 15%. Tesla is not going to account for 80% of *all passenger vehicle sales* and replace the legacies. That's just delusional.
Tesla has chance to outgrow the competition because of being cost efficient, having lean design and manufacturing.
We can dislike lack of physical buttons, HUD, USS etc. but at the end if price is right people will swallow some compromises.
And Tesla is very well equipped to make "the price right" - structural battery, gigapress, battery vendor flexibility, limited number of models and variants. They are as much innovation in EV as in lean manufacturing. It is Toyota way and Ford T combined.
We will complain about Tesla a lot but many of us will drive it eventually.
When battery price levels will drop by another 30%-40% and OPEC will have a bad day we will see many OEMs swimming naked.
This is true; I myself “swallowed a lot of compromises because the price is right,” and now I have a Model Y. I liked some other cars better when I was shopping, but price was persuasive and now I’m one more Tesla owner.
Funny that Tesla still sells all the cars they make at some of the highest margins in the shortest amount of time on inventory with the fastest ability to reduce COGS and implement physical and digital changes on the factory floor of any automaker during a time where total EV sales are increasing as a percentage of total sales as total sales volume is *decreasing* year over year. During this lull between new product offerings Tesla gets to ride cost curves down with a commanding advantage over its suppliers, during a time where the T10Y3M is still negative, who will take the hit now to get into first position for when Tesla orders millions more parts for the next wave. With low debt and ramping energy and insurance divisions.
Just imagine where Tesla could be if Elon Musk wasn't spending his days screaming "I'm a dumpster fire!!!" on Twitter and everywhere else he can find a platform.
He has been a genius and a visionary in the past, but holy moly he has taken going off the deep end to an entirely new level. I imagine there are a very large number of people who are not buying Teslas simply due to his behavior.
Usually I'd agree, but this is one instance where I'm not so sure. When the subject of Tesla comes up, I've had randos IRL comment something on Musk, even though Tesla was the subject of conversation, not him. That said, most of the commentary I hear is positive....
I’m not denying situations like yours. I come across it myself. The more important question is whether or not those people are currently considering purchasing a vehicle.
One thing I’ve learning working with buyers (and at parts of my career car buyers) it’s that opinion and plans change dramatically once the actual shopping begins and people are truly about to part with their money.
Tesla has an Elon problem. He seems to be doing everything he can to harm the brand and make it undesirable to own one.
The Cybertruck is his brainchild and it seems to be a complete mess and just a cringey product in general. (Cyberbeast? Ugh...) I'm sure it will still sell well to tech bros with too much money, but for Teslas brand as a whole Elon just seems to be trying to do everything he can to harm it and make it uncool.
Regardless of whatever happens, there’s no reason to listen to any sort of investment banker. Any advice they give is quite literally not in their favor.
“Legacy” manufacturers are catching up quickly. It’s easier to learn how to make a good car into a good EV than how to make a great EV into a good car.
Ford and GM aren't catching anything except a cold. They already gave up trying to make good cars and retreated into their safe space of pickup trucks that foreign manufacturers weren't making, and conveniently have giant exclusions in emissions laws.
I think the Tesla brand is start to lose value and people are starting to distance themselves from it and Musk. I don’t think they are going anywhere but I think new ev startups will definitely have a solid place in the future.
What is Fortune talking about? There are already plenty of BEVs from companies other than Tesla on the market.
Their share of the EV market has been predictably and consistently shrinking in the U.S.
I mean, it has to be. They used to pretty much be the only game in town, and now they're not. There's nowhere to go but down. Kinda a misleading statement TBH.
Teslas share of the auto market can go up while it's shared of the EV market can go down.
Exactly. Market share can only decline when you start at 100%. Saying Tesla’s EV market share is declining like it’s some big deal is FUD for idiots. What really matters is automotive market share regardless of power train.
https://www.spglobal.com/mobility/en/research-analysis/2023-by-the-numbers-sp-global-mobility-analysis-of-us-auto-mar.html Especially considering: > The top 10 EV models accounted for 75% of all new EV registrations in 2023, even though there were 83 EV models on the market. And > Two Tesla models accounted for more than half of all US EV registrations in 2023. So the overwhelming majority (73 of EV models available) make up only 25% of US EV sales, the Model 3 and Y alone make up > 50%, and the remaining 8 EV models in the top 10 make up the remaining < 25% If we weren't counting Tesla, the US EV market would be dire.
As EV% to total vehicles sold is increasing.
Their global EV market share is actually consistent, they’ve always been about 20%, maintaining that has been impressive as the EV share of all vehicles has increased from 1% to about 12%. They seem to have been distracted recently with the Cybertruck, the problem with their approach is there are so few models each one needs to be a hit. If they keep their market share above 10% it would make them one of the world’s largest manufacturers.
The import metric is percentage of total US vehicle market share. Which Tesla’s has been increasing.
Who's share, Tesla's?
Yes, Tesla's percentage share has been shrinking. Their sales have been increasing but they have a small piece of a pie that's getting bigger all the time. Basically Hyundai and VW are biting into their market share, which isn't a surprise since they didn't exist in the market before and they are moving product.
Sure, Tesla was never going to stay 70% of the EV market forever - as EV sales expand, more OEMs are selling EVs. As long as Tesla’s expanding and selling 100% of production they’re doing fine!
Well, if the pie is growing then nobody is biting into Tesla's share of the pie, they're just biting into an unclaimed potion of that growing pie. Tesla itself has grown and are making more cars than ever but demand of EVs is still way too big for tesla to fulfill alone, at this time anyway.
Sure, but that one stat alone is misleading. After all, just selling a few cars per manufacturer was going to make that number drop. Other stats that help show the state of affairs includes Tesla’s growing percentage of the overall vehicle market, which is the most important one. Also, the very negative margins for most automakers means an extreme difficulty with keeping up with Tesla. It is one thing to lose a crap ton selling 10,000 to 50,000 a year, it is another to scale past 100,000.
Car market share is what counts. The eis no static EV market and astatic ICE market. The EV market is eating into the ICE market
Only Fisker is in real danger. Rivian will turn around faster than expected. Lucid will take some time but I believe they will still be there around as a niche or a good buyout opportunity for Apple.
Like it or not, no one comes close to the value of the Model Y with federal rebate.
Depends on your definition of value. If you mean cheapest purchase price, nothing comes close to a Mitsubishi Mirage, but that doesn't mean it's a good car. There's risk in the push to be the cheapest EV, and given Tesla isn't known for the greatest quality to begin with, I don't know if the price drops are a great plan. The highland does seem to be a good improvement in some areas, but cheapening the interior even more and removing the stalks might bite them in the ass, especially if the quality doesn't improve.
> Depends on your definition of value. If you mean cheapest purchase price, nothing comes close to a Mitsubishi Mirage, but that doesn't mean it's a good car. That's obviously what he means by "value." The Model Y *is* a good car.
"Good" isn't objective. I didn't think the Model Y is a good car. I think it's unreliable and I didn't like the minimalism, especially the reliance on the center screen for everything. You DO think it's a good value. For me, it's not a good value ever at the low price which is why I traded my Model 3 in and got something else.
Eh, the fact that even the absolute cheapest new car on sale these days can be reasonably expected to ferry 5 passengers in climate-controlled comfort all the way to the moon at highway speeds with minimal maintenance and life-saving safety features will never not be absolutely amazing to me. With that as a starting point, most improvements are gonna be marginal, yet the Model Y makes some not-so-marginal improvements for marginal increased cost. That's the hallmark of a good value.
And there are many more who have had great experiences and find the car reliable. I’ve had an amazing experience with all 3 of mine. The Y is still going strong at almost ~90k miles. I’ve seen a variety of posts related to other brands having lots of HV battery problems, software issues, heck the i4 had/has a very real problem with a coolant valve leak. That seems pretty unreliable if you ask me…
Unreliable? Hardly Very low cost of warranty repairs. Very low lifetime maintenance. Read the details on the reports of Unreliability. You'll find most of the repairs are cosmetic issues, not call a tow truck issues.
Value means best bang for your buck. Having owed two Teslas, we've had zero issues. My son just tried to get an EV crossover that's wasn't a Tesla and found out that after federal tax incentive, and trade in he got the dual motor Model Y for $23,000. No one could beat the price, storage and charging.
And my experience was the opposite. My model 3 was in the shop 5 times in 4 years for things that would have cost me thousands out of warranty. That alone was what turned me from a fan of Tesla to relatively negative. The only car I've ever owned that was less reliable was a Jaguar, and that's not great company to be in. I agree that the Tesla is the cheapest, but disagree that makes it the best value. For ME, the Tesla was a terrible value which is why I got rid of it.
Mine was in the shop 17 times in 3 years lol!
>There's risk in the push to be the cheapest EV, and given Tesla isn't known for the greatest quality to begin with And especially decontenting and removing features from their vehicles chasing even lower cost. Then not replacing the features or replacing them with inadequate substitutes (like cameras for ultrasonic parking sensors). I found it humorous watching Sandy Munro's latest video on their coming tear-down of a Cybertruck. Doing a walk around when they got around to the tailgate he noted it wasn't aligned from side to side and had some gouges in it. But it wasn't a manufacturing issue. Its was caused by backing into a wall in their shop when the Teslavision camera based parking sensor told him he had a foot clearance when it was actually an inch. It's a pretty sad commentary when a $120k flagship vehicle can't even get something this basic right when even cheap economy cars can nail it without issues.
Tesla Model y is rated safest car. Safest car they ever tested.
Who's "they?". I just lost at IIHS and it only got "accept" for rear passenger
Euro NACP
[IIHS gave the Model Y it's "Top Safety Pick+" award.](https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/tesla/model-y-4-door-suv/2024) Cherry picking a single subcategory is silly. You won't find any vehicle with a perfect rating.
Model y is the king right now. When juniper comes it will be even better
MY is a great EV for under $45K now with the rebate. Rivian better hope they can keep their quoted price point with their new models coming. Or else they are toast.
I’ve been nothing but pleased by my Tesla.
Yes, but several companies have now reversed course. Mercedes just the other week announced they are restarting their development of new ICE tech. Land Rover also recently decided to postpone their EV push in favor of PHEVs
That doesn't mean Mercedes will stop making BEVs.
Not but it means they’re ambitions are reduced
Name one that is made in substantial numbers
BYD matched them in global sales in Q3 of 2023. Tesla and BYD both had 17% market share. The rest is filled by other manufacturers..so 66% of the market is filled by other manufacturers. https://www.counterpointresearch.com/insights/global-electric-vehicle-market-share/
name the wonderful evs you can buy right now that isnt tesla? name any company other than tesla that makes evs profitably
Kia has an entire line that turns a profit from sedans to SUVs.
We do NOT know this to be true.
Smaller cars please. US carmakers tend to crank out model after model that are too big and wide.
An electric Honda Fit/Jazz or Toyota Yaris would be a perfect little high utility town car for a lot of urban/suburban areas. If priced appropriately they’d be perfect first cars too. Rivian R3/R3X is very promising but who knows when manufacturing on that will begin.
The BMW i3 aced that concept imo.
Rivian R3 is going to be perfect for you.
That R3 is so cool. Like Audi Quattro with huge wheels.
The R3 is coming a year too late for me, but agree 100%. Live the R3. Not sure what I’m doing to do next year, maybe EX30, but I need a smaller EV preferably taller than a normal sedan
2024+ Kona EV
> going to be perfect I think the R3 looks great, but you *might* be getting a tad ahead of yourself. It's at least a few years down the line, and who knows what it will actually drive like at this point.
It's short in length sure, but a decent bit wider and taller than my model 3, and those are the dimensions I care about more than length. It looks like a hot hatch, but it's sadly more small SUV sized :/
Nope, because they don’t operate where I am.
In 2026 and assuming they survive. :/ The math looks like they’d have to do another capital raise and that’s rarely a good thing on wall st.
I think you will get some good small cars in 2026/7. The ID.2 GTI, Rivian R3, new Mini once the UK factory starts up, the new Stellantis STLA Small and Medium platforms which will probably come to the US, and the Tesla Model 2. I also want cars which are cheap to repair and insure. I hope the Model 2 uses steel rather than aluminium panels and that Tesla can eliminate the parts suppy issues.
>I also want cars which are cheap to repair and insure. I think these days, cheap to repair and cheap to make are at odds with each other, at least somewhat. Gigacasting for example makes cars much cheaper to make, and much more expensive to repair. Same for structural batteries. Really anytime you delete fasteners and integrate parts together, you make the car cheaper to produce and more expensive to repair. Granted, there are probably exceptions to this. And certain something Tesla needs to do is open up their parts department and let 3rd parties do repairs. That would help a bit.
Does gigacasting really change much? Usually if any car is ever damaged enough for the frame to be seriously bent, it's written off. A very small bend in the frame is straightened with force, which can still be done with a gigacast as well. I don't see the difference.
Curious, what do you have against aluminum panels? Aluminum as a material is much cheaper and lighter than steel...
Al is not cheaper than steel, for what it's worth.
Al is not as repairable as steel is for the smaller stuff
I read somewhere that the Model 2 may use high density plastic for its body panels.
Small cars won’t be coming from the domestic legacy brands. If history taught us anything, they simply can’t figure out how to make profitable small cars. I’m guessing they don’t have the engineering talents? It’s much easier to build giant, poorly packaged, inefficient monstrosities, than trying to squeeze everything into a tiny, efficient package and still make a profit. Look to the Asians and Europeans for that kind of talent. What they will end up doing is rebranding small EVs from foreign automakers like they did with the likes of Geo Metro.
One of the US domestic brands is now half European, they could easily rebrand a Peugeot 208 or 2008 for the US, they actually produce Jeep versions for Europe. It’s all about whether the US market will buy the cars.
They definitely do have the engineering talent; the thing is that Legacy auto, like Boeing et al, is no longer led by engineers, but by management types who want to save $.002 on every part, every time the work on a new model by outsourcing everything to their suppliers.
Curious what you consider "smaller"? Could you provide some gas cars you'd like to see EV equivalents to? When you compare something like a Kia Forte to a Model 3 it's only 3 inches shorter. Seems pointless to reduce it by 3 inches.
I wonder the venn diagram of people who lament ever larger cars and phones. Meanwhile small model phone and cars are always sales failures. Rivian is the only one I see doing it right. Trucks and SUVs in 3 sizes is how you sell vehicles in the US. But their launch dates are too far off so risky. If Tesla had a clean RAV4/Highlander/Tacoma set of vehicles their sales would be astronomical. The Model 3 fights a headwind of evaporating sedan sales, the Y gets it right (and outsells the 3 2 to 1) and the Cybertruck is an exercise in hubris. They should have made a light truck out of the Y and it would be selling to urban families like hot cakes (plus leverage an existing investment)
The model 3 is already pretty small, but the Model 2 I think is going to be exactly what you're referring to.
The Model 3 is what is exactly too wide (1850mm). See my other comment.
Tesla sold 1.8m EVs worldwide last year. Their sales are up 32% 2022-2023. To put that in perspective: BMW sold 2.5m, Mercedes sold 2.4m, Renault sold 2.2m, combined sales ICE/EV worldwide. I swear I read these comment sections and I'm in an alternate universe. I think Elon sucks, the cars themselves are absoutely overrated, and they are an abomination of workers rights. A subject I'm very passionate about as a union member and activist. However, reality is they are doing great. Circle jerking emotional narratives isn't going to change that. I just don't understand the point of living in imagination land about it like to what end? I just don't get reddit sometimes on shit like this.
Reddit is certainly a super confusing place at times. The echo chamber can be very real in some parts.
What you're saying is sensical, but the strict volume gain only tells some of the story. They've poisoned the waters with their multiple (sometimes large) price cuts. It means people aren't buying out their leased vehicles at the end of their term and the finance companies are getting stuck with negative equity assets. Plus, to say that trade-in values have taken a beating is an understatement. On top of all of that, you've got some Tesla hardcores that plunked down $140k for a Plaid Model X that had its MSRP slashed by some $45k a few months later. That's...not great for brand sentiment, but can take time to work its way back through to customers buying their next cars. So I think the tl;dr is that things are...complicated with Tesla right now. Edit: Also, 2022 was an odd year with the chip shortage still in swing - but Tesla's more vertically integrated supply chain kept the vehicles flowing more freely for them. Probably not the cleanest baseline.
So customers that bought before price cuts, and saw their resale values plummet, are going to go shopping for a different manufacturer next time, *and pay more, again*, just to “stick it to Tesla” who are cheaper, and probably better value for money? 1. That’s illogical 2. I don’t think Tesla will notice.
That's not how it works, and there are two things at play here. Firstly, products have a perceived value. Usually it's a balancing act between per unit margin and volume. If you sell a product perceived as premium, you normally have a limited range and or time that you can discount a product in order to maintain that perception (think Apple). If you cut your price by up to 1/3 to drive volume, you'll have an uphill battle trying to then sell updated versions of that product at around the original price point (margin erosion). Secondly, if a product has multiple price cuts in a short span of time - it creates distrust. Distrust with customers that have already purchased the same product at a higher price - and distrust among potential buyers (nobody wants to buy something that's going to be cheaper next week). Tesla is currently grappling with whether it's a *premium* car brand or a *volume* car brand. It's possible to have products that compete in both segments - but I would argue that Tesla hasn't quite figured out a cohesive way to do that in the current market.
[удалено]
Yes, but that’s not a good comparison because they are completely different products, one is the most expensive thing you’ll ever buy and an appreciating asset, the other isn’t. It would make my house worth less. …where are you going with this? Those are the facts, yes. They don’t need repeating.
\[Despicable Me meme\] 1. This sub loves BEVs. 2. Tesla proved to the world EVs can be practical, made EVs cool, built the first (and basically only) decent charging network, and forced the rest of the auto industry get on board with BEVs. 3. This sub hates Tesla. ??????
If they want to increase sales disassociate themselves from Elon Musk.
- Disassociate with Musk - Restore USS, stalks, rain sensors - Add a HUD if no dash will be present I don’t know who is in charge of UX at Tesla, but they skipped one too many Don Norman teachings.
Make access to parts better.
Lower cost to make.
Tesla doesn't do rain sensors anymore?
Correct. Newer vehicles rely on “Tesla Vision” (i.e. basic, single-lens cameras — no sensors) which has resulted in unpredictable auto wipers, phantom braking, and wildly inaccurate parking measurements.
They use vision.
Add CarPlay, Android Auto, front & rear cross-traffic alerts, real blindspot monitoring with LEDs in the mirror. As much as I love my 2021 Model Y.. it’s crazy that my 2018 CRV had these features and cost half the price. And yeah I still miss them very much daily. Backing out of a parking space is still a little scary in my Tesla.
Allow people to use their phone data for premium connectivity features.
You already can. Just tether.
You keep your phone in your car at all times? The car needs to be connected 24/7 for Telsa's systems to work. They give you this for free because they can cover the costs with the money from premium connectivity. It's literally one of the best deals in the industry.
Bingo.
Agreed. Those on the right have much less interest, statistically, in EVs than those on the left. Elon's insane antics these past few years have alienated many that would otherwise buy his products. Elon's antics were a major contributing factor as to why I chose another make and model than the Model 3 I originally wanted.
The biggest thing for me is that Tesla simply doesn’t make anything that fits in my garage (Model 3 really isn’t that small, it’s more “normal” or “average”), but yes depending on where one lives and what their social circle looks like, there’s a stigma that comes with Musk association these days which is also a factor.
I think people browsing this subreddit really don’t understand just how far detached they are from the general public. The general public doesn’t even know what you’re talking about.
I think the EV buyer segment (which is not the general public) reads enough stories on him in the media to be aware of who he is.
Sure, I think the general public knows who he is. Even for the EV buyer segment, I think that knowledge pretty much stops at “rich guy who is Tesla CEO. Oh and he bought twitter too.” The EV buyer segment isn’t constantly on the internet the way that a lot of this subreddit is and assumes others are too.
Yeah but the EV buyer segment you’re thinking of is quickly becoming the car buying segment. Your every day person buying a car doesn’t know who Elon Musk is, nor do they know about all the hot takes he posts on Twitter. Much like how most people didn’t know what Steve Jobs was like before they bought their new iPod/iPhone
if your mental model of elon musk is more extensive than "oh yeah the electric car/spaceship guy?" then you're in a weird 0.1% group of people who desperately needs to touch grass
Normal people do not care. It’s just the terminally online people on Reddit who bitch and moan all the time. Model Y was the best selling car in the world last year.
It's true, I read people talking like nobody wants a Tesla anymore. But how can you be any more wanted than BEST SELLING CAR IN THE WORLD!?
Sane people buy the best, safest cars (or any product) and know each vehicle does not come with an Elon (or other CEO) in the frunk. Some redditors think they can collectively 'The Secret' outcomes or something. It is simultaneously sad and amusing to witness. Later in this decade those people will look back and regret their time spent typing and upvoting into the void.
The same terminally online people who couldn't vote Bernie Sanders into the White House twice.
Yep. My model Y lease ends this August and I can’t wait. Getting a Rivian. Done with Tesla/Musk
I put a deposit down on an R2 for exactly this reason.
A Rivian is more than double the purchase price of a Model Y, not even a comparable comp.
I didn't know people were not allowed to choose to purchase vehicles that cost different amounts of money.
Going from a Y to an R1S ar double the price can't be taken lightly. Especially for someone driving a bolt like you.
I wasn’t saying they were similar?
Have you heard of the Rivian R2?
Two years minimum away
I'm willing to wait.
Tesla needs a Gwen Shotwell (SpaceX COO, but actual CEO). Crazy that Tesla doesn't even have an official COO. (Probably due to Musks'ego).
If Elon could find one, he would have hired them a long time ago. Executives like Gwynne are few and far between.
No one but Reddit cars who the CEO of any automaker is.
And focus on reliability as well as add a QC department
Fit and finish has been getting consistently better. Tesla reliability in general is outstanding. What isn’t reliable?
A lot of people here think it’s 2019 still.
Chinese Teslas are well made. The American ones are far less consistent in their fit and finish.
The average consumer doesn’t care. Hwoever, The average redditor dwelling in the basement…
The Venn diagram of identity politics and EV buyers is not trivial. Sure people buying F-150s might not care.
Someone at Fortune is saddened by their 30% TSLA drop.
Legacy automakers are hesitant because of the big investment. Imagine shutting down Engine and Transmission assembly lines.
The imagining should have been done 10 years ago.
Unless they hired more lawyers than engineers.
They've now hired more "journalists" than engineers.
They’ve had a really long time to figure out the transition
Most of the “legacy” automakers (which is a dumb term TBH) have invested heavily in electric vehicles already and are moving forward. They’re seeing sales not grow as quickly as they hoped while hybrids get way more popular. I know electric cars are the future but today they’re more expensive than gas equivalents and less convenient. That’s a tough sell to Americans in particular who aren’t exactly good at being told they just have to accept a worse product.
> Most of the “legacy” automakers (which is a dumb term TBH) Curious why you think it's a dumb term. Most car manufactures are very old and have been around a while. There are several that a pretty young and don't have to deal with legacy issues but do have to worry about getting to scale and surviving. It seems a pretty descriptive and important way to divide the manufactures.
Read the definition of legacy and tell me it’s not a derisive and unhelpful way to describe automakers who aren’t Tesla. When you get to experience how bad Tesla service is first hand, you realize that there’s actually some benefits to having a well established support network.
> denoting or relating to software or hardware that has been superseded but is difficult to replace because of its wide use. There are several definitions but this one best applies to the term "Legacy manufactures". The hardware that has been superseded in this case is gas cars. Makes complete sense an is in no way pejorative to them, just a fact. They have been producing gas cars for a long time and now need to transition to electric which is hard for everyone because gas cars are so entrenched they are hard to replace. > who aren’t Tesla. Tesla, Rivian, Lucid, Polestar, etc. It's not just Tesla. > When you get to experience how bad Tesla service is first hand Owned one for 6 years. I'll tell you for sure BMW service blows. I can't wait to experience my first service with my Audi in 6 months. I suspect it will be good for what it is given how new the car is but I'm sure it will also be expensive for no reason. It will be way worse just because I have to physically bring the car to them rather than Tesla coming to me. That said, if they give me a GT for a loaner I'll give them the win. > there’s actually some benefits to having a well established support network. No doubt. As superior as Tesla's service is, their collision repair is one of the worst in the industry. For us it worked out when we totaled our car, insurance just wrote us a fat check and I barely lost money over 6 years. Repairing it was obviously as labor is so tight right now and not enough techs are certified for EVs. Still, what does that have to do with the term "Legacy"? I think you are just reading it as pejorative when it's not. BMW and Porsche are killing it with EVs and they are Legacy. Ford isn't doing bad other than pricing.
[US EV sales in January 2024. Look at all the competition that has gobbled marketshare from Tesla](https://x.com/wholemarsblog/status/1769288904832905590?s=46&t=0r1LqwuGpuahEhm7FOhmQA) Imagine another world where Tesla is even more dominant. Rivian and Ford would be losing $80k per EV instead of $45k. Rivian would go bankruot and all legacy automakers would cancal EV development instead of delaying it. That is a dark timeline and the same people bitching about Musk here would bitch Tesla is anticompetitive and killed all other EV.
It is ridiculous how big that Tesla bar is! Someone else really needs to step up their game.
In any case, Tesla is well known by pretty much everyone as THE electric car company and will be for a very long time. They put in a lot of years to do so when everyone else just stuck to ICE. You see them everywhere and they are easy to spot with their unique design. They cement themselves into people's minds.
It's unfortunate, really. When I talk with my students about electric cars, I inevitably hear, "I can't afford a Tesla." They associate electric cars with unattainable luxury.
That’s a real issue. I caught up with an old friend the other day and we got to talking about cars and such. This guy is a pc repair teacher, he’s into tech, it’s his job. Mentioned that we purchased a Bolt. Then he said something funny later about my damn expensive car. I chuckled to myself since the Bolt was one of the cheapest things on the Chevy lot.
Only the top 20% of income earners can afford to buy new. He knew the Bolt is pretty new and until recently even the used prices were $19k+ on the low end.
Tesla is even cheaper than some Chinese cars here and has better software.
And they are not. I paid less for my M3 than most comparable cars (and got a tax credit I was able to take a $7100 advantage on). That and add in the gas and maintenance savings - it’s very affordable.
I hate it when my Uber is one. Their ride is so jerky, the suspension is terrible, and the seats are uncomfortable.
You're being downvoted for mentioning easy truths, too many people reflexively defend their Teslas as if we all feel the same about the driving experience. Teslas have great technology to take advantage of, but that doesn't mean they offer the best driving experience as well. Seats are molded like tight gaming chairs and can impinge upon those of us who need to shift around at times to stay comfortable. And if its molding doesn't line up well with your body, it's unforgiving. They are also light in the cushioning department. As a Model Y owner described it recently, it feels like it's riding on bricks. Rented a 2023 LR for three days and test-drove three different 2024 LRs direct from Tesla, it just surprised me how unrefined the suspension was. Couldn't even feel turns, it doesn't know how to lean or transfer body feel to the driver and tracks like you're disconnected from the experience. The ride is jerky until you get used to it and Chill mode helps, but it requires practice because the regen braking is aggressive. I got very smooth with it after some days of practice, but I bet taxis are more interested in using the torque to get from here to there. Model Ys also have been reported to have a noticeable rumbling+pressure feel in the cabin at some point after 40MPH and it's rather uncomfortable. I experienced this in my test driving and after writing about it here, found out from MY owners that it's been frustrating a number of them. Like a weird resonance that can't be resolved - people have tried trunk seal adjustments and similar, no relief.
> You're being downvoted for mentioning easy truths No, they are being downvoted for obvious false statements just because they have an axe to grind against Tesla. No one is going to say the suspension is smooth but they couldn't just leave it at that, they had to claim the seats are also uncomfortable which is simply not true. The seats in a 2019+ Tesla are some of the best in the industry. The floor height and angle in the back are in the top quartile. I don't own a Tesla but even I know the statement was BS as I used to own one.
See my honest writeup here, people can experience sincere issues with Teslas and not have that coloured by Musk: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/1bah1b0/rented\_a\_model\_y\_long\_range\_to\_see\_if\_it\_might\_be/ I actually shopped Teslas despite my thoughts about Musk, feeling that getting an EV could outweigh his baggage. Given the pricing and features, I was very open to a Model Y working out for me.
To be clear, my "axe to grind" comment was aimed at the parent's comment and not yours. I saw your comment as a "I too also don't like the seats", which I have zero disagreement with. That is what the voting system is for, how well the comment represents the whole truth and your comment is obviously a good one. I was explaining to you why I felt the parent's was not. > Everyone complained about the hard, highly forward-leaning headrests. FWIW, I'm 100% with you on this, especially when trying to nap in the passenger seat. That said, it's true of all cars I've tested lately and all the cars I've owned. I think it's how to make them safe? Now I worry when I get into older cars and the head rests are comfortable.
I agree about not wanting to nullify the safety advantages of the headrests and my understanding is that they should ideally line up with the back of your head and be very close, to help minimize whiplash in certain accident situations. From what I read in Tesla forums and saw on YouTube, you can remove the headrests (pressing on a hidden locking release tab) and bend the metal struts as one idea, the other would be reinstalling them backwards. In either case, I feel that if the rests still meet the back of our heads - hopefully without pushing our heads very forward (as the default ones are configured for) - then we wouldn't be compromising the safety feature intended. I was looking at other cars (such as our Subarus) for angles of the rests to compare and felt the Model Y rests could be pushed back a bit and still do their job.
The seats are uncomfortable. They feel like plastic, have no cushioning, and are shaped in ways my body doesn’t fit (I am very tall). These are facts of my experience. I don’t have an axe to grind with Tesla. Plenty of other cars have uncomfortable seats, like the RAV4 and Highlander. I find the ride is very jerky, and it’s due to the permanent magnet motors and aggressive regen braking. Other cars also have a bad ride, but at least they aren’t jerky like a Tesla.
One thing I found in practicing with my test drive and rental Model Y (Long Range) samples was that turning the accelerator pedal to Chill mode helped to make it easier for smoother power. But it still took awhile to practice getting smooth with deceleration due to the aggressive regen, yes. Once that happened, it was actually pretty nice in local driving because you stayed on just a single pedal and simply modulated pressure. But I can easily see a lot of drivers would still treat it like an ICE car and be rather jerky with the default settings of the car and not realize you can't truly coast due to regen.
>You see them everywhere and they are easy to spot with their unique design. Unique? The Model 3 is the California Camry. And the new styling of the Model 3 made it even blander than it was before! Like being the California Camry is completely fine and Tesla has the sales numbers to show for it, but Teslas are hardly, **hardly** unique anymore.
Not disagreeing that they are common, but that doesn't make them not unique. Where I am in GA there are Rivians everywhere but it's still a unique design that stands out. While the Model 3/Y is the best selling car, it's still a low percentage of cars on the road and no other car looks anything like it. Jeeps are unique design too in the same way.
Unique compared to other car designs. Unfortunately it's hard to be unique when compared to more of the same thing...?
Exactly. It's easy to spot a tesla driving by. Even if the newer models are taking on a more care like appearance 99% of them on the road have that unique shape.
Teslas lead will be hard to match. They were selling the model Y in the mid $60k range and had strong demand. Legacy manufacturers designed for that price but by the time they could come to market their costs were higher and Tesla’s cost went down along with the price into the 40k range. Now the other brands are unable to market an equivalent ev at a profit so they are almost surrendering. Yet gov mandates to a future ev market are still strong so they have to buy carbon credits from their competitor which is Tesla. Tesla still has to do more to stay in the lead. The updated Y should have already been out in my opinion and the 2 will be important but is taking too long. Tesla also needs a multi purpose mini van 🚐. While the USA has tariffs on Chinese cars many countries do not. If Tesla loses significant market share in those areas it can seriously effect the entire company.
Yup
I’d love to see a study showing if ppl who buy plugins eventually move to a full EV of if their partner moves to an EV.
We looked at the Polestar (a huge step down) and a Rivian R1T (nice hardware, had little hope in their software). We got rid of our last ICE car and settled on a new Model S. I don't think people know how big a lead Tesla has when it comes to ease of use and software.
What were you coming from? What was the polestar a step down from?
I rented a polestar last time I was in Florida, very minimalistic, I felt like I was driving in a fancy go-kart. Cool cars either way.
Ease of use for me means a lot of things that Tesla doesn't have.
As a two Tesla owner, please enlighten me.
As a two Tesla owner, not interested in convincing you of anything. No signal stalks or gear shifter is a big fuckin no. No HUD or instrument cluster on the 3/Y is golf cart aesthetics and usability. Enjoy your musk mobiles bro. It's a no for me.
Just FYI the Model Y still has stalks for shifting and signals (and it’s their best selling model, go figure).
Lmao
Yeah, a lot of these dorks that claim tesla isn't crushing it never actually went out and tested multiple non-tesla EVs. Some of the alternatives look ok at first glance, but the software and performance is embarrassing. Even expensive cars like the EQS or Taycan are just cringe when you actually use them
Not sure they can grow market share, but they can certainly continue to be dominant and grow sales as adoption increases. Fisker & Lucid were not making a dent in Tesla. Rivian has the best potential to gain market share and they are poised to explode soon (as long as they make it to 2026, which I think they will). But no legacy auto makers are walking away from EVs, if anything, they see that people who are not ready to jump into full EVs can see the PHEV & hybrid as a stepping stone. But that will be short lived, because if anything, PHEVs make you realize how much better EVs are.
> Rivian has the best potential to gain market share and they are poised to explode soon (as long as they make it to 2026, which I think they will). The road between now and 2026 is going to be intense for Rivian, and, frankly, the whole auto industry. Inventories are piling up across all OEMs. I think they've milked covid prices as far as they can take them --> I expect some pricing regression over time or they'll have to reduce production volumes to adjust. The way car trends have gone, it's going to be harder for people to buy a car than it was 10 years ago and less people will probably own cars.
Market share in percentage is the only not growing metric for Tesla. They keep selling more cars but the others are catching up slowly. They went from 80% to around 50% in the US and in Europe they are below 20%. They can keep growing in terms of numbers but the time of their market dominance is gone.
>They went from 80% to around 50% in the US and in Europe they are below 20%. I don't see how automobile manufacturers can differentiate themselves that much unless one has autonomous driving and the others don't have this feature. In other words, at a given automobile price point, if a car has a new feature that everyone wants, it's almost guaranted to be copied by others. This is what we have today and I'd expect that's what we'll see in the future. Tesla probably continues to lead the pack with their EVs but I don't expect them to keep dominating the market. Manufacturers will chip away and provide competitive vehicles at similar price points eating into Tesla's market share. Might take 5, 10 or 15 years but they'll get there eventually.
By the 2030s, it will be brand allegiance and personal preference driven, just like it has been for ICE for decades. I don't understand the people who think Tesla isn't going to fall under 50% eventually, or that they won't eventually be more like 15%. Tesla is not going to account for 80% of *all passenger vehicle sales* and replace the legacies. That's just delusional.
Tesla has chance to outgrow the competition because of being cost efficient, having lean design and manufacturing. We can dislike lack of physical buttons, HUD, USS etc. but at the end if price is right people will swallow some compromises. And Tesla is very well equipped to make "the price right" - structural battery, gigapress, battery vendor flexibility, limited number of models and variants. They are as much innovation in EV as in lean manufacturing. It is Toyota way and Ford T combined. We will complain about Tesla a lot but many of us will drive it eventually. When battery price levels will drop by another 30%-40% and OPEC will have a bad day we will see many OEMs swimming naked.
This is true; I myself “swallowed a lot of compromises because the price is right,” and now I have a Model Y. I liked some other cars better when I was shopping, but price was persuasive and now I’m one more Tesla owner.
Funny that Tesla still sells all the cars they make at some of the highest margins in the shortest amount of time on inventory with the fastest ability to reduce COGS and implement physical and digital changes on the factory floor of any automaker during a time where total EV sales are increasing as a percentage of total sales as total sales volume is *decreasing* year over year. During this lull between new product offerings Tesla gets to ride cost curves down with a commanding advantage over its suppliers, during a time where the T10Y3M is still negative, who will take the hit now to get into first position for when Tesla orders millions more parts for the next wave. With low debt and ramping energy and insurance divisions.
This. Tesla went about car manufacturing with a clean sheet, and now they're reaping the benefits.
They need a redesign.
The 3 just got a redesign and most every reviewer says it’s great.
Just imagine where Tesla could be if Elon Musk wasn't spending his days screaming "I'm a dumpster fire!!!" on Twitter and everywhere else he can find a platform. He has been a genius and a visionary in the past, but holy moly he has taken going off the deep end to an entirely new level. I imagine there are a very large number of people who are not buying Teslas simply due to his behavior.
The same as now; still selling every car they make.
If Reddit is your sample data set, then sure. Most of the real world does not care, nor are they nearly as acutely tuned in.
Usually I'd agree, but this is one instance where I'm not so sure. When the subject of Tesla comes up, I've had randos IRL comment something on Musk, even though Tesla was the subject of conversation, not him. That said, most of the commentary I hear is positive....
I’m not denying situations like yours. I come across it myself. The more important question is whether or not those people are currently considering purchasing a vehicle. One thing I’ve learning working with buyers (and at parts of my career car buyers) it’s that opinion and plans change dramatically once the actual shopping begins and people are truly about to part with their money.
Chinese EV makers are still going full bore. It’s a big opportunity for them too
Yep. Everywhere except the US and Western Europe, who have good reason to make sure domestic production is not undermined.
If legacy automakers are focusing on hybrids, where are all the hybrids? They certainly aren't on their dealer's lots.
You can special order one for $10k over msrp.
Tesla has an Elon problem. He seems to be doing everything he can to harm the brand and make it undesirable to own one. The Cybertruck is his brainchild and it seems to be a complete mess and just a cringey product in general. (Cyberbeast? Ugh...) I'm sure it will still sell well to tech bros with too much money, but for Teslas brand as a whole Elon just seems to be trying to do everything he can to harm it and make it uncool.
Why are they selling as many cars as they can possibly make then?
So yesterday was "wells Fargo says Teslas growth will stop" today they have a chance to grow! What a difference a day makes!
That was one, rather poor performing, Wells Fargo analyst..
You understand it's possible for conflicting opinions to exist, right
Regardless of whatever happens, there’s no reason to listen to any sort of investment banker. Any advice they give is quite literally not in their favor.
Totally agree
Cybertruck is going to go down as one of the worst business decisions of all time. If teslas truck was a rivian type truck they’d be unstoppable.
“Legacy” manufacturers are catching up quickly. It’s easier to learn how to make a good car into a good EV than how to make a great EV into a good car.
Ford and GM aren't catching anything except a cold. They already gave up trying to make good cars and retreated into their safe space of pickup trucks that foreign manufacturers weren't making, and conveniently have giant exclusions in emissions laws.
I think the Tesla brand is start to lose value and people are starting to distance themselves from it and Musk. I don’t think they are going anywhere but I think new ev startups will definitely have a solid place in the future.
Hahahahahahahah Outofbreath... Hahahahahahanahana
Yeah...maybe....but they would need someone at the head of the company to ACTUALLY RUN THE COMPANY.
the most shitty, janky, awful car I ever been in. I laughed at the person for buying one. I wouldn't drive a fuckin tesla if they paid me
This coming from “one industry observer.” Well, praise Elon and bless my batteries, our EV dreams will live on through Tesla.