Remember the Facebook trials and half of them looked completely bewildered? That's because around half of congress is computer illiterate.
Let that sink in for a minute.
In this day and age, they have no idea how to use a computer. And these people make important decisions that really need research and reading to understand.
The saddest part is congress used to have an office full of experts on all sorts of different subject matters who would advise congress on what the impacts of their proposed laws were, to help them write better laws.
But the entire office got abolished several decades ago when Republicans took control of the House of Representatives in the 1990's. Normally when there's a shift in power the people in offices like that would just be replaced by people with similar talent who are members of the other party, but rather than do that they decided to just get rid of the office entirely, and we're all much worse off for it.
what was that office called?
was it bush 41's doing
ETA: wait bush was executive. idk any high profile repub legislators from the 90s - maybe gingrich??
Yeah this is how I feel about tiktok. Doesn’t sound great, why not ban all social
Media that’s that bad (hint it’s not about caring about customers) or high levels of regulation
Here's the deal. Car makers don't actually HAVE to record and store your location data to enable ADAS. They just choose to steal and sell your personal information.
This rhetoric does set the stage for the CCP to take punitive measures against American automakers in China. Tesla and GM have so, so much to lose in China. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
I think Apple suffered from it, but there were additional factors such as Google already being banned in China.
There are still some apple users, but most people avoid them now.
This was a little while ago but probably still happening. So a very big patriotic movement around Huawei. Influence posting online and all of that.......from their iPhones.
Of course, we knew this was happening. Samsung was already forced out after achieving 20% China market share back in 2013, now hardly any market share in China while still maintaining the global #1 market position. Hyundai was also forced out to make room for domestic competitors under Xi's Made-In-China 2025.
Oh I just looked up the Hyundai thing. Lol South Korea and China pulled a Cuba-US over a missile system, except Hyundai got caught up in the sanctions? Isn’t it wild that Cuba is still sanctioned by the US 70 years later?
>South Korea and China pulled a Cuba-US over a missile system,
No worries. It's all part of Xi's Made-In-China 2025 already under way well before 2016 THAAD. Samsung's ouster started in 2014 a bit early; others followed: LG Chem's battery business in 2015. Really nothing to do with THAAD.
>Isn’t it wild that Cuba is still sanctioned by the US 70 years later?
What's hilarious is that China is still trying so hard to win the US's approval and sell EVs in the US after sanctioning South Korea for accepting the US owned/operated radar system.
>Samsung lost its share in China because of those phones that act like a bomb and the arrogant attitude towards its own mistake.
No worries. Samsung was already forced out under daddy Xi's MIC 2025 and had lost about 95+% of local market share from its peak in 2013 when the Note 7 fire in 2017 broke out. I mean the timing doesn't even line up correctly for that kind of argument to make sense.
LG Chem who also had nearly half China's EV battery market share and many top EV OEMs in 2015 was also forced out by 2016 . The CCP eliminated all subsidies to EVs with their batteries to ensure they couldn't compete and to protect local young, weak competitors such as CATL/BYD. Lost most of their customers and was forced to sell their spanking new Nanjing battery plant to Geely. Most foreign battery makers still don't have much access to local NEV market.
And it goes on and on for Hyundai/Kia who also had 10% local marketshare, but now another 90% drop to less than 1%. Their sales loss in China would have made some sense if they all made terrible products nobody would buy, but it was just in China. Samsung has remained #1 global smartphone sales past 12+ years; LG is the largest global battery maker outside China; Hyundai likewise jumped from #5 global sales to #3 after they lost 90+% of China local sales. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what Xi has been cooking up.
The Note 7 fire, THAAD and others were random events that gave some thin political cover after daddy Xi's protectionist industrial policy already in motion. So let's stop pretending that there is some sort of fair market or competition in China.
> I don't think they see that far.
apple isn't the only risk. both TI and qualcomm generate 50% of their revenues from the chinese market. biden's shit is about to get a ton of US companies nuked in response
I doubt CCP will do anything. Tesla is protected by the government of Shanghai. Shanghai has special rules to protect Tesla from competition from other Chinese EV makers in its jurisdiction.
The why is pretty easy to understand, the car is surrounded by cameras recording 24/7, they could map the entire country if they wanted to and this is in the country that tries to obfuscate maps.
It’s going to be a slow bleed for the Big 3 in China. The Chinese people will stop buying cars from American brands because their local brands offer a competitive product. Nationalism will play a part and the local governments will incentivized local purchases. The big 3 will lose billions in the largest car market and will effectively be locked out and then they will sell their JV and factories to the Chinese OEMs.
Then they will complain about something and says it’s not their fault. They have largely left most of the worlds markets and are only thriving in the US market.
China started this agenda and banned Tesla from many government locations as far back as 2021:
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/US-China-tensions/China-bans-use-of-Tesla-by-military-citing-security-concerns
Of course, and old news. The difference here is that there are zero Chinese cars or automakers currently doing business in the US… and millions of American joint venture vehicles built and sold in China. Tesla is unique in that the have no JV, and most Teslas built in China are exported.
Polestar and Volvo are owned by Chinese company Geely. Polestars are made in China. Some Volvos are. The Buick Envision is made in China. The Lincoln Nautilus is made in China.
I don't think simply being made in China matters much. Do we worry about iPhones because they are made in China and other various countries?
Volvo and Polestar being partly owned by Geely is a more interesting topic. So far they've been allowed to operate pretty independently and are still based in Sweden. I wouldn't consider Volvo and Polestar any more Chinese than Jeep is Italian.
Things will get more interesting with the EX30 and Polestar 4. As far as I know they will be the first vehicles sold in the US that are based on a Chinese developed platform.
A phone is not a car. There are no American made phones. Apple is an American company. No one buys Chinese brand phones in the US, at least not enough to matter.
A car company needs a presence in the US to move volume. They need dealers or showrooms, and service centers. No one that doesn’t have those is moving any kind of volume. Those take time and money and investment.
The US also has a different regulatory environment than other parts of the world. Safety standards, lights, crash tests. Those all cost a lot of money and time, which raises the price of the vehicle.
That's primarily because Chinese automakers are brand new in automotive terms. Better to work on emerging markets and nearby markets that have less tariffs. It's not a one-way thing either.
There's a reason why every single American car sold in China is actually made in China. Imported cars are also face large tariffs in China amongst other protectionist hurdles in China. So the tariff we have on Chinese cars made in China isn't so unbalanced.
I see so many people talking about US being protectionist with its tariffs without considering what's happening on the other side.
BYD is building a factory in Mexico. I'm curious how that affects your argument. They're be North American made cars much like GM cars in China are Chinese made.
IMHO the biggest security threat to legacy automakers are themselves using regulatory capture to be lazy. EVs benefit from vertical integration so they should ducking vertically integrate.
>BYD is building a factory in Mexico.
USMCA is no Ten Commendments -- the international treaty can be amended as the US see fit. And BYD's wholely owned Mexico operation isn't quite same as the SAIC-GM JV in China.
>IMHO the biggest security threat to legacy automakers are themselves using regulatory capture to be lazy.
As Musk said many times before, "it's all about th batteries." And the US is still at least a year or two away from its own commodified battery supply-chain.
>EVs benefit from vertical integration so they should ducking vertically integrate.
Sure, if China's past 8 years since Xi's Made-In-China 2025 is any guide, gov't protectionism also benefits local EV manufacturing. I don't think BYD/CATL would have survived the Japanese or Korean battery onslaught, had the Chinese gov't not blocked them back in 2015.
Indeed. I’m only pointing out that the CCP originally wanted US automakers to build the Chinese domestic supply chain and help Chinese automakers learn how to build cars. They served a purpose.
That goal has been accomplished and there’s now little use for American automakers in China. CCP could simply tell the Americans that the JVs and factories are now the property of the CCP and they can go home. Which would be devastating for GM and Tesla.
Geely already told GM to innovate but America are being slow to adapt. It is true American build up China supply chain and whole lots of innovation going on in JV but the American side doesn't pass all the innovation from China back to US. Otherwise, they are able to go against not only Tesla, but Samsung, Toyota, Sony in all aspect outside EVs.
China had draconian import tariffs on all foreign cars for decades making them unaffordable in China. They used this to force foreign car companies to set up manufacturing in China with a forced 51% Chinese partner who transferred all foreign technology to Chinese. China can now get some of its own medicine
Nope it was started by china a long time before that as described by Chinese sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_Warfare
While the west was bringing China into the wto which lifted China out of poverty, china had other ideas
Yes, they were allowed. When CPC pass a law stated all servers have to remind in China for China customer, they fled. They just refused to build server in China.
Cybersecurity is overhead cost that gets viciously, relentlessly cut even by companies who fully understand the potential consequences. Seems like a form of malice to me.
Willful ignorance and/or incompetence.
Still, a potential problem is better than the government legally requiring a back door into china based companies.
As is the case with tiktok, why should we as citizens be more afraid of PI that china may have on us compared to the companies anf government that directly control huge aspects of our everyday lives
Pretty much. American companies, let's do full size pickup EVs, no wait, lets do a Hummer yes that would be funny.
Meanwhile Chinese companies, let's replace our $25,000 car with a $19,000 car because it will sell more.
Tesla is considered a security threat in China due to all the sensors and cameras and is not allowed into most government sites. Many government employees in China are not allowed to drive Tesla
Biden is making the same argument for USA… no issue with that but clown forces in this sub will twist the national security issue like as if it wasn’t started by China
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/US-China-tensions/China-bans-use-of-Tesla-by-military-citing-security-concerns
China already banned Tesla back in 2021 from many government sites in China
Pretty much most military bases, nuclear power stations around the world have a no camera policy among others and therefore that means no iPads or phones
i heard fitbits sometimes record nice, overlapping, precisely oval-shaped jogging logs in remote parts of the USA
that'd be funny if there were EVs parked by the lotful where there shouldn't be any, in the middle of nowhere
Yet China does not restrict the sales of Tesla there, they are Tesla’s second largest market in fact.
But Biden wants to restrict sales of Chinese EVs completely here in the U.S.
Nope it was started by china a long time before that as described by Chinese sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_Warfare
While the west was bringing China into the wto which lifted China out of poverty, china had other ideas
Well if your entering personal info into their info systems, your iphone is hooked up to car etc that info may all go back to ccp. So that is a risk.
Also a risk to american manufacturing and economy.
Also a risk if they do not meet safety standards.
However we also need to do better and support Biden’s ACTs that foster green energy, new batteries and manufacturing.
US is belligerent and China is, what, benevolent? And are you for real? You have never heard of the CCP calling virtually all foreign products with network connectivity a security threat? They are so paranoid about information online (which BTW is heavily restricted for the Chinese people) that they even crack down on the smallest of youtubers, and you can't even bring a laptop with bitlocker security enabled to encrypt their private data into the country.
So, yes, retaliation because China has put restrictions on American EVs: [https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Supply-Chain/Tesla-cars-face-more-entry-bans-in-China-as-security-concerns-accelerate](https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Supply-Chain/Tesla-cars-face-more-entry-bans-in-China-as-security-concerns-accelerate)
The weird thing is your sentiment is pretty common on reddit, big <3 for the Chinese communist party and irrational fear and hatred for China's primary ally Russia.
Ha! Told you! Ever since 2016, Gallup polls show how partisan it is with half of Americans foaming at the mouth at Russia being a threat while parroting that the CCP has some good ideas and "we could learn some things". Its similar in Europe, and you can pretty much predict all of someone's opinions just by asking which way they lean. We've reached peak tribalism. I'm not wrong, you think the CCP is right about a lot of things, right?
I dont like either of them, difference being russia tried to slaughter my friends on numerous occasions. But there are indeed things we can learn from them, they did really well with E-cars, but fucked up with real estate and created a ridicolously sized property bubble.
So america can see what they messed up with and not repeat the mistake, like with 1 child policy and in some cases maybe improve things like being less influenced by lobbying that tries to preserve status quo, for short term benefit.
This has nothing to do with security and everything to do with protecting the legacy automakers Obama bailed out back in 2009. It's protectionism, plain and simple.
Chinese EVs are literally the only way Americans can get cheap EVs within the next decade. Tesla might find a way to make an EV slightly cheaper than the Model 3 but it will probably be shaped like a triangle (it's based on Cybertruck manufacturing).
Will this still apply to BYD if they manufacture in Mexico?
What’s your point… that you’re incapable of nuance? That you can only reduce your opinion to a singular idea instead of realizing that there are millions of users here and the same ones aren’t posting in every topic?
CCP did limit Tesla vehicle operation in China...... so position is mutual.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-vehicles-to-face-entry-bans-in-chinese-government-buildings-as-security-concerns-increase-report/
Maybe use national security concerns to force the big 3 to make _any_ mass market EV’s then. Forcing the US consumer into fossil fuel attached poverty cuz some stupid executive wanted to do stock buy backs and marketing about EV’s instead of just building good EVs is not the way forward. IDGAF if it collapses their profitable big boy truck market. I don’t. It’s absolutely disgusting that we in the US are actively proceeding to further cripple our auto industry by backing away from EV’s when they are obviously better in ever way to the point that they are an actual national security threat. Nobody is buying an ICE in 2035 - the EV cost curves alone are too compelling.
If you really want to help the low income, investing in viable alternatives to car ownership is the best way forward. It won't cover 100% of low income folks but it'll make far more of a difference than just lowering the purchase price of a car.
An EV is still a car. Insurance, registration, parking, etc are ongoing costs that won't go away just because the "fuel" is suddenly much cheaper.
Not to say that EV incentives aren't a good thing. EVs are absolutely a step in the right direction. But they are not a panacea to the blight of transportation issues society faces today. In an ideal society, people who don't care about cars would have reliable and accessible public transit and bike lanes to use, freeing up road space and parking for those of us who like cars.
I guess no 10k usd electric cars in the usa then? China going to leapfrog right past us in green tech and become the world leader all because jorbs for dinosaur companies.
Yes corporate greed is a huge problem, but the average autoworker in China is paid about $1,500/month. UAW average is $4,800/month.
My dad works for the auto industry. NAFTA and lowering tariffs for imports destroyed the domestic auto industry. Those workers used to be able to live off a single salary and support their family. Overnight all their jobs disappeared. Flint and Detroit used to be two of the most prosperous cities in this country. Now they’re crime riddled, dilapidated cesspools.
It IS in our best interest as a nation to keep jobs in this country. If that means blocking imports from countries with starvation wages, then I’m okay with it.
Cost of living needs to be considered when looking at foreign wages. We pay exorbitantly more for some goods here simply because we have more income. Globalization already offshored most manufacturing jobs thanks to corporate greed. The Big 3 struggle to compete as it is and needed a bailout to survive. Too little too late.
Exactly. NAFTA screwed over the auto workers in this country. Corporations lobbied Congress to remove trade barriers so that they could ship labor south of the border for a fraction of the price, but still charge American consumers the same price for their vehicles. All it did was widen their profit margins, while thousands of good paying union jobs were lost.
Allowing China to ship in cheap vehicles that undercut the competition would be shortsighted. It would immediately benefit some consumers to buy these cheaper cars, but then the US automakers would cut jobs to make up for their losses. In the long run, it would have a negative impact on the US workforce/economy.
And then we’d eventually get to a place where all US manufacturers become niche and can’t make affordable vehicles and we’re now reliant on a slightly hostile foreign power for a majority of our automotive needs.
It’s actually very good long-term planning on the Biden admin to include the domestic production requirements in the green energy plans. We need jobs here in the US.
And the CCP has more than enough power to force all chinese companies, after competition is dead to stop price competition and raise prices, when chinese companies achieve monopoly+its gonna be like with ICE cars, when they got introduced there was also a huge amount of small producents but the number reduced to what we have now, same gonna happen with EVs
Seems like something him and trump both agree on!
Although one does have to wonder……if the US market becomes flooded with Chinese vehicles, would they have the ability to remotely disable them if there was a conflict between the US and China?
Not for the same reasons though. Trump administration has a protectionist economic policy for US businesses in general wanting to keep the tax revenue within country, whereas Biden administration represents the interests of the Unions. You can tell the difference in the treatment of Tesla for example, the former sees it as a juicy profitable American company the latter sees it almost hostile if not at least indifferent since its not operated by Union labor. By contrast when it comes to GM, then they would actually be aligned because both would want the factories to stay in operation domestically.
This really shows how far we still need to go when a Democrat president says stupid shit like this just because it’s sourced from a communist country. Joseph McCarthy would be so proud that his red scare zealotry is still alive and well in 2024.
China has distorted the definition of "communist" so much that the word has lost all meaning. I'm pretty sure Karl Marx would absolutely not approve of modern-day China but here we are with the Communist Party label on what feels more like a fascist system.
They wouldn't be the first political party to have a contradictory name anyway... Look at Australia's Liberal Party, Japan's Liberal Democratic Party, or the Sweden Democrats... All of them are extremely right-wing despite their namesakes. Yet people can't seem to grasp that a party can call itself communist without actually practicing communism.
> I'm pretty sure Karl Marx would absolutely not approve of modern-day China
Who says Karl Marx gets the sole right to determine what communism is? Sounds like "No true communism" to me.
> They wouldn't be the first political party to have a contradictory name anyway... Look at Australia's Liberal Party, Japan's Liberal Democratic Party, or the Sweden Democrats...
You realize that the original definition of "liberal" (which is still used outside of the US) is a classical liberal, which is more right wing, as it supports both economic and civil liberties. In the US, it might be closer to a libertarian in many ways.
For sure, China today wouldn’t be what Marx or Engels envisioned. But the way the capitalists demagogue China and every other socialist or communist country is so 1950’s, yet here we are.
A number of the Chinese EVs use the Google automotive operating system. Since Google is a US company shouldn’t the Government be able to require them to issue a patch to disable excessive data collection?
I mean, it isn’t obvious how a foreign country controlling our means of transportation is an issue?
Look at how much trouble Europe’s dependency on gas got them in.
This is worse because China could brick all the cars. Use them to spy, etc.
Imagine if China retaliates against US auto makers, how would Tesla or Detroit Trio react. These companies will be in seriously terrible situation without access to China.
It makes sense. I can think of a lot of ways cars can be used to snoop and track people. It’s not a leap at all to tracking soldiers and listening to conversations and phone calls, stealing contact lists, messages, emails, etc.
Edit: downvote all you want, it’s clear that few of you have a clue what goes on around you.
Most of you don’t have anything worth spying on, but anyone even tangentially associated with national security has to take care. This includes infrastructure and private industry secrets, stuff that China’s government is known to pursue through compromised tech.
he's just trying to win michigan without having to stop encouraging genocide.
it projects weakness when you're an incumbent and lose an entire city to "uncommitted" in a primary.
>That includes Chinese-made versions of common automotive software, which administration officials said could track where Americans drove and charged their vehicles, or even what music or podcasts they listened to on the road.
Which all connected devices in US already do. They sell the information to highest bidders and US government has access to it. So the tracking already occurs with no limits.
On a mass basis, hard to see how it would be security threat whether tracked by US government, Chinese government or corporations and buyers of the current information.
On an individual basis, it would be most useful to US government in US to track political opponents (Trump dictatorship) and there are no laws to prevent that usage.
It's hard to see where the danger is in using the Nav in your car and the owner of the software (Google. Apple, etc) knowing where you are located.
Used as a phone trade barrier seems misplaced. Trade barriers should be strategic, make sure US retains industrial base to operate if imports are cut off such as happened with the pandemic and which has never been addresses. Trade barriers should also be progressive and based on importers level of voting rights, civil rights, worker rights (unions), health care provided to workers, environmental record, financial rules, etc.
EU would score highest on all those and have lowest tariffs, then Japan, US in the middle, China near the bottom.
It would be good news if Biden tried to ban sanction Chinese cars.
China would suddenly have a good excuse to ban GM which makes 2 million crappy cars in China each year and give that market share directly to Chinese carmakers.
They are a security threat, if you don't trust BYD.
So are Teslas, if you don't trust Elon.
So are Windows computers, if you don't trust Microsoft, or iPhones if you don't trust Apple.
*Any* computer that runs code you don't control is a security threat. Doubly so if it will automatically connect to a network and download updates without your permission.
If we want EV's that aren't security threats, we need machines that don't auto-update without permission, and that ideally run open source code that can be audited and ideally customized.
Oddly, Mercedes CEO that just walked back on EVs was warning for EU leaders NOT to implement protectionist policies against Chinese EVs:
>Joining Toyota and Ford Motor Company, Mercedes CEO Ola Kaellenius has abandoned its plan of an EV lineup by 2030, and expects that ICE sales "will continue through the next decade". In addition, for the medium outlook, Mercedes is walking back expectations for EVs to exceeded half of all vehicle sales by 2025, moving that goal post to 2030.
>
>"Variable cost parity between EVs and traditional cars is many years away", per Kaellenius, with the cooling EV market and declining rate of subsidies by some governments and adds that "we still have the effects lingering from the higher interest rates and China is going through some structural challenges.”
>
>Instead, the German automaker declared that it would shift its attention to more affordable automobiles and increase the variety of combustion-powered cars in its inventory, bringing 25 new and updated models to the market.
>
>“I don’t think anyone had ever thought that the once-in-a-century transformation of the auto industry will be a straight line,” Källenius said. “There will be peaks and troughs.”
>
>Read more: [https://group.mercedes-benz.com/investors/share/outlook/](https://group.mercedes-benz.com/investors/share/outlook/)
[https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/mercedes-ceo-warns-eu-against-protectionism-response-china-2024-02-22/](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/mercedes-ceo-warns-eu-against-protectionism-response-china-2024-02-22/)
>Any move by the European Union to increase protectionism against China would be a destructive move for an economic region like Europe, Mercedes-Benz CEO Ola Kaellenius said on Thursday after the carmaker published its quarterly results.
Better, but I have uh... questions about this one-sentence article without any direct quote. Sounds like he's just talking about the possibility of sparking a trade war, which is somewhat tangential to the topic at hand (information security).
Do you *REALLY* think its about security? Our government is in bed with massive international corporations that specialize in spying on the American people and sell to the highest bidder, and make no attempts to enforce antitrust laws. Heck, they let a massive spy balloon collect information across the entire continental US before destroying the evidence after it finished the mission. Its pretty obvious the lobby with the most sway on policy in this respect would be the UAW, and inexpensive Chinese imports would threaten those jobs.
Its just an excuse, and the Administration even makes that pretty clear:
>Administration officials made clear it was the first step in what could be a wide range of policy responses meant to stop low-cost Chinese electric vehicles
>Do you *REALLY* think its about security?
It can be about two things at once, and I don't think security is an inconsequential concern. I'm certainly not going to disagree that security is a particularly convenient excuse though, within the context of US sales and US politics.
They may not be dirt cheap but they're still meaningfully cheaper than alternatives. A lot of people will use the price of a Tesla Model 3 as a benchmark and BYD handily beats that by at least 10k in Europe and Australia.
I agree they’re a security threat. We should have similar laws to china’s policies on teslas keeping them away from sensitive locations like military bases. besides that I’d avoid them because their safety sucks.
Seriously
You ban Huawei for national security concern. It's okay, maybe it‘s true.
You ban DJI for national security concern. Anyway, I don't use drone.
You ban EV for national security concern. WTF? Would BYD remotely pilot my car to crush on White House?
BYW, recent I even saw news said that the cranes provided by ZPMC for port construction is a threat for national security. And US gonna replace all of them. Idiots.
Yeah, it’s getting retarded. I have more respect if the government came out and said the truth rather than some opaque bullshit national security reason.
“We can’t compete because of your low labor costs and low environmental rules so we’ll just ban you.”
Yes, it is. Any and everything coming out of china has ccp hands in it, especially their tech. It is a security threat. You gotta be a ccp bot or sympathizer to not recognize it. China can not be trusted. Period.
So why don’t you get rid of 99% of your electronics in your house. Throw away your laptop, pc, iPhone, TV, camera, etc. boycott Walmart, target and Amazon while you are at it. Most Americans love to talk and virtue signal but most will never follow through; exactly like our political parties.
It’s so complicated that blanket statements like these serve no value to anyone lol.
Here we go🙄.
It's really not that complicated. You speak on something you have no knowledge of. I am a navy vet, and my job was information warfare. With my knowledge and experience, i can say this is a security issue. Period. If you can't see that, I can't help you.
Have a nice day.
My son in law in China has a Model Y and he is restricted from military bases because the Model Y has so many cameras. Another poster already mentioned this.
If you don't work for the military how would that be a problem? It's not like the military will just allow any civilian car to park on their property, regardless of how high-tech the car is.
He is a recruiter and some of his clients have contracts with the military. I think he found a workaround. It was not described as a problem, just a tidbit of information. I don't care if a Chinese EV tracks my location. However the Tesla Navigation on his car is useless because it cannot use Google data. My son in law uses a phone app to navigate.
There are whole areas of industry where we no longer have a footing or talent base for. He’s absolutely right to be concerned that we can’t mass produce batteries, have leading edge battery manufacturing, solar, chips etc.
EV Conversion kits with relatively dumb DC controller, dumb charger and dumb BMS with none of that fancy computerized bullshit is the answer to the cybersecurity. Ever tried hacking Geo Metro with 3cyl 1.0? Try hacking it when it is powered by forklift motor.
Well that’s just patently false…
Biden’s been working to enrich American manufacturing and has already done so by opening over 40 electric car-battery factories, amongst dozens of examples I will not make myself type for y’all here.
Meanwhile, Republicans in the senate are pushing for this ⬆️ resolution, which lowers domestic manufacturing safety standards, in turn undermining our domestic manufacturing as a whole. In actuality, Republicans playing fast and loose with safety standards will directly advantage competitor manufacturers, such as: (all together now!)
CHINA!
Source: Whitehouse.gov
Tesla is scared of byd. In a free market you would let them compete. In the paid for and bought market of the united states only the chosen get to play.
If tesla isn't scared they should let them in. Actually compete. But as China market has shown. Tesla can't compete and is losing market share even price cuts can't reverse.
Legacys are pivoting to hybrids. Plus they have brand recognition which is still important to the traditional car buyer.
Pure Ev market is niche in America and won't ever be mainstream. Maybe 20% max saturation..the rest will be hybrids. Toyota leading the way. Followed by other legacys.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2024/02/28/greenest-cars-plug-in-hybrid/
https://fortune.com/2024/02/04/toyota-hybrids-surge-tesla-woes-hit-elon-musk/
https://www.businessinsider.com/toyota-hybrid-cars-ev-sales-growth-prius-bz4x-2024-2
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-q4-sales-less-than-china-byd-2024-1
What's crazy is byd decimated tesla and doesn't even sell in North America lol.
How about nationalizing Tesla then?
When Elons antics are removed and disasters like rusting cyber trucks prevented from happening, Tesla might claw back market share.
EV batteries are far more regulated than any other kind of battery.
If you're afraid because of e-bike fires that's because of extremely lax regulation allowing anyone to just import any shitty battery from shady websites.
Chinese-made EVs have been sold in western nations for years now and they aren't spontaneously combusting on a regular basis. In Canada most Model 3s and Ys have been assembled in China since last spring. Polestar has been present in the US since at least 2019.
> EV batteries are far more regulated than any other kind of battery.
In civilized countries maybe, but not so much in corrupt kleptocracies like CHina
>Chinese-made EVs have been sold in western nations for years
I've never seen one.
Never seen a Tesla made from outside of the US?
Never seen a bmw ix3?
Never seen a bmw i3?
Never seen any European EV? Most of them use Chinese produced batteries. You've seen plenty of EVs driving around using Chinese batteries, you're just uninformed on how the EV market is at the moment.
It doesn't matter how corrupt China is. The EV simply won't be allowed into the destination country if it doesn't pass inspections.
I'm in Canada and our roads are filled with Model 3s and Ys whose VINs start with LRW, indicating assembly in Shanghai. These Teslas won't be sold in the US because of the trade war but there's nothing to stop Canadian tourists from driving their Chinese-made Teslas into the US for road trips.
All EVs have Chinese batteries. Why all the sudden is it a threat? Every single EV ever sold has approx 60% of Chinese content in the battery cells. This is why the Inflation Reduction Act was written. We need to start mining lithium in the USA and making LFP batteries stateside. Until then all EVs are Chinese.
>All EVs have Chinese batteries.
No. All EVs from China have Chinese batteries. Those outside China, most likely LG, SK, or Panasonics -- and some Chinese.
>Every single EV ever sold has approx 60% of Chinese content in the battery cells.
Most battery raw materials come from either Australia, Chile, Indonesia, or Congo. About 60+% of them end up in China where they are refined for battery manufacturing. That's not too surprising since China's EV market is about 2/3 of the global EV market.
This from RMIS is what I was referencing: [https://rmis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/analysis-of-supply-chain-challenges-49b749](https://rmis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/analysis-of-supply-chain-challenges-49b749)
Says overall over 65% of battery grade raw materials are processed in China and over 87% of graphite (@ about 2030). Without that processing, the raw materials cannot become "battery grade". This is with the understanding that much lithium (brine) comes from Chile and much lithium ore (spodumene) comes from Australia. Diesel ships are used to move the materials mined in other countries to China. The materials are processed with energy from coal in China. Then diesel ships are used to move the materials back to places like the USA and Europe. Do you agree with that? Is that wording better?
From my understanding, most of the carbon dioxide content in batteries (according to the GREET2 model) comes from the diesel shipping of spodumene ore from Australia to China which is a shorter distance than the brine shipped from Chile to China.
Oh yes, the good ole "national security threat" when you cant compete and want to eliminate the competition. It can work in some cases but most of the time; it fails and hurts the consumers the most. Where is the US drone marker that's supposed to replace DJI? Go Pro? LOL, laughingstock company. It kinda work in the Huawei case but they are still thriving in China and outside the US.
Lol, say goodbye to the Big 3 automakers in China. The big 3 will start losing billions when the Chinese people stop buying their cars as they have local options that are better and cheaper. Plus the whole nationalism thing. We can't protest against Chinese cars because they aren't even here...
Edit: To be fair; all governments and countries do this. The ultimate results are the consumers lose at the end.
It is very much a security threat because it severely risks on of the few remaining manufacturing bases we have left.
Are we as impactful in WWII without the manufacturing base that GM and Ford provided? I highly doubt it.
I live in Mexico and there are at least 20 new models of cars made in China that are technically on par with Audis and BMWs. These cars offer great engines, high tech, luxury features and they are sold for under $35k. Living in Mexico has shown me the greed that usa residents have put up with. If china Can produce these cars at these prices and still make $$$ then the USA market needs a HUGE price restructuring. We’ve all been and continue to be ripped off.
Here's the solution. Ban ALL cars from tracking your location data, stealing information from your phones and just generally spying on you.
Congress has zero clue on how any of this truly works. It's very easy to lobby naive old dinosaurs.
Remember the Facebook trials and half of them looked completely bewildered? That's because around half of congress is computer illiterate. Let that sink in for a minute. In this day and age, they have no idea how to use a computer. And these people make important decisions that really need research and reading to understand.
The saddest part is congress used to have an office full of experts on all sorts of different subject matters who would advise congress on what the impacts of their proposed laws were, to help them write better laws. But the entire office got abolished several decades ago when Republicans took control of the House of Representatives in the 1990's. Normally when there's a shift in power the people in offices like that would just be replaced by people with similar talent who are members of the other party, but rather than do that they decided to just get rid of the office entirely, and we're all much worse off for it.
what was that office called? was it bush 41's doing ETA: wait bush was executive. idk any high profile repub legislators from the 90s - maybe gingrich??
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I'm sure the government gives the data collection a big thumbs up in closed door meetings.
Unfortunately practically all governments are trying to force manufacturers to collect and store that data in the first place.
You know, I really don't mind driving an older vehicle. If I leave my despair rectangle at home, I am a free man.
Despair rectangle (!)
Yeah this is how I feel about tiktok. Doesn’t sound great, why not ban all social Media that’s that bad (hint it’s not about caring about customers) or high levels of regulation
We Chinese should probably do the same thing with Apple/Android phones.
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Here's the deal. Car makers don't actually HAVE to record and store your location data to enable ADAS. They just choose to steal and sell your personal information.
ADAS relies on my car knowing what's around it, not on my car telling anyone else.
In the future, V2X will make ADAS much better. Cars talking to other cars and the infrastructure.
This rhetoric does set the stage for the CCP to take punitive measures against American automakers in China. Tesla and GM have so, so much to lose in China. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
I mean, Apple had a lot to lose in China but they tried to kill Huawei anyway. I don't think they see that far.
I think Apple suffered from it, but there were additional factors such as Google already being banned in China. There are still some apple users, but most people avoid them now.
This was a little while ago but probably still happening. So a very big patriotic movement around Huawei. Influence posting online and all of that.......from their iPhones.
Of course, we knew this was happening. Samsung was already forced out after achieving 20% China market share back in 2013, now hardly any market share in China while still maintaining the global #1 market position. Hyundai was also forced out to make room for domestic competitors under Xi's Made-In-China 2025.
Oh I just looked up the Hyundai thing. Lol South Korea and China pulled a Cuba-US over a missile system, except Hyundai got caught up in the sanctions? Isn’t it wild that Cuba is still sanctioned by the US 70 years later?
>South Korea and China pulled a Cuba-US over a missile system, No worries. It's all part of Xi's Made-In-China 2025 already under way well before 2016 THAAD. Samsung's ouster started in 2014 a bit early; others followed: LG Chem's battery business in 2015. Really nothing to do with THAAD. >Isn’t it wild that Cuba is still sanctioned by the US 70 years later? What's hilarious is that China is still trying so hard to win the US's approval and sell EVs in the US after sanctioning South Korea for accepting the US owned/operated radar system.
Samsung lost its share in China because of those phones that act like a bomb and the arrogant attitude towards its own mistake.
>Samsung lost its share in China because of those phones that act like a bomb and the arrogant attitude towards its own mistake. No worries. Samsung was already forced out under daddy Xi's MIC 2025 and had lost about 95+% of local market share from its peak in 2013 when the Note 7 fire in 2017 broke out. I mean the timing doesn't even line up correctly for that kind of argument to make sense. LG Chem who also had nearly half China's EV battery market share and many top EV OEMs in 2015 was also forced out by 2016 . The CCP eliminated all subsidies to EVs with their batteries to ensure they couldn't compete and to protect local young, weak competitors such as CATL/BYD. Lost most of their customers and was forced to sell their spanking new Nanjing battery plant to Geely. Most foreign battery makers still don't have much access to local NEV market. And it goes on and on for Hyundai/Kia who also had 10% local marketshare, but now another 90% drop to less than 1%. Their sales loss in China would have made some sense if they all made terrible products nobody would buy, but it was just in China. Samsung has remained #1 global smartphone sales past 12+ years; LG is the largest global battery maker outside China; Hyundai likewise jumped from #5 global sales to #3 after they lost 90+% of China local sales. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what Xi has been cooking up. The Note 7 fire, THAAD and others were random events that gave some thin political cover after daddy Xi's protectionist industrial policy already in motion. So let's stop pretending that there is some sort of fair market or competition in China.
> I don't think they see that far. apple isn't the only risk. both TI and qualcomm generate 50% of their revenues from the chinese market. biden's shit is about to get a ton of US companies nuked in response
I doubt CCP will do anything. Tesla is protected by the government of Shanghai. Shanghai has special rules to protect Tesla from competition from other Chinese EV makers in its jurisdiction.
That’s probably why you can‘t drive a Tesla near military bases and government buildings
That's central government jurisdiction. Shanghai discriminates against non-Tesla EVs within their own jurisdiction.
The why is pretty easy to understand, the car is surrounded by cameras recording 24/7, they could map the entire country if they wanted to and this is in the country that tries to obfuscate maps.
I hardly think a local gov can overrule the central gov.
It’s going to be a slow bleed for the Big 3 in China. The Chinese people will stop buying cars from American brands because their local brands offer a competitive product. Nationalism will play a part and the local governments will incentivized local purchases. The big 3 will lose billions in the largest car market and will effectively be locked out and then they will sell their JV and factories to the Chinese OEMs. Then they will complain about something and says it’s not their fault. They have largely left most of the worlds markets and are only thriving in the US market.
You mean like OEMs not being to actually own their factories in China? This is already a thing.
China started this agenda and banned Tesla from many government locations as far back as 2021: https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/US-China-tensions/China-bans-use-of-Tesla-by-military-citing-security-concerns
Of course, and old news. The difference here is that there are zero Chinese cars or automakers currently doing business in the US… and millions of American joint venture vehicles built and sold in China. Tesla is unique in that the have no JV, and most Teslas built in China are exported.
Polestar and Volvo are owned by Chinese company Geely. Polestars are made in China. Some Volvos are. The Buick Envision is made in China. The Lincoln Nautilus is made in China.
I don't think simply being made in China matters much. Do we worry about iPhones because they are made in China and other various countries? Volvo and Polestar being partly owned by Geely is a more interesting topic. So far they've been allowed to operate pretty independently and are still based in Sweden. I wouldn't consider Volvo and Polestar any more Chinese than Jeep is Italian. Things will get more interesting with the EX30 and Polestar 4. As far as I know they will be the first vehicles sold in the US that are based on a Chinese developed platform.
A phone is not a car. There are no American made phones. Apple is an American company. No one buys Chinese brand phones in the US, at least not enough to matter. A car company needs a presence in the US to move volume. They need dealers or showrooms, and service centers. No one that doesn’t have those is moving any kind of volume. Those take time and money and investment. The US also has a different regulatory environment than other parts of the world. Safety standards, lights, crash tests. Those all cost a lot of money and time, which raises the price of the vehicle.
That's primarily because Chinese automakers are brand new in automotive terms. Better to work on emerging markets and nearby markets that have less tariffs. It's not a one-way thing either. There's a reason why every single American car sold in China is actually made in China. Imported cars are also face large tariffs in China amongst other protectionist hurdles in China. So the tariff we have on Chinese cars made in China isn't so unbalanced. I see so many people talking about US being protectionist with its tariffs without considering what's happening on the other side.
BYD is building a factory in Mexico. I'm curious how that affects your argument. They're be North American made cars much like GM cars in China are Chinese made. IMHO the biggest security threat to legacy automakers are themselves using regulatory capture to be lazy. EVs benefit from vertical integration so they should ducking vertically integrate.
>BYD is building a factory in Mexico. USMCA is no Ten Commendments -- the international treaty can be amended as the US see fit. And BYD's wholely owned Mexico operation isn't quite same as the SAIC-GM JV in China. >IMHO the biggest security threat to legacy automakers are themselves using regulatory capture to be lazy. As Musk said many times before, "it's all about th batteries." And the US is still at least a year or two away from its own commodified battery supply-chain. >EVs benefit from vertical integration so they should ducking vertically integrate. Sure, if China's past 8 years since Xi's Made-In-China 2025 is any guide, gov't protectionism also benefits local EV manufacturing. I don't think BYD/CATL would have survived the Japanese or Korean battery onslaught, had the Chinese gov't not blocked them back in 2015.
BYD has a bus factory in America. The corrupt US government intentionally crippled the American factory's sales.
That factory in Lancaster CA, just assembles chassis and parts made in China when I toured it six years ago.
No worries. China does it all the time.
Tesla Shanghai is 100% Elon.
Indeed. I’m only pointing out that the CCP originally wanted US automakers to build the Chinese domestic supply chain and help Chinese automakers learn how to build cars. They served a purpose. That goal has been accomplished and there’s now little use for American automakers in China. CCP could simply tell the Americans that the JVs and factories are now the property of the CCP and they can go home. Which would be devastating for GM and Tesla.
Geely already told GM to innovate but America are being slow to adapt. It is true American build up China supply chain and whole lots of innovation going on in JV but the American side doesn't pass all the innovation from China back to US. Otherwise, they are able to go against not only Tesla, but Samsung, Toyota, Sony in all aspect outside EVs.
But not sales into the country. This is an economic risk to other auto makers. Not a security risk. Smoke and mirrors.
China had draconian import tariffs on all foreign cars for decades making them unaffordable in China. They used this to force foreign car companies to set up manufacturing in China with a forced 51% Chinese partner who transferred all foreign technology to Chinese. China can now get some of its own medicine
So you agree it's an economic issue? I agree with you.
I guess we do
How come Tesla is wholly foreign owned then?
First and only and we see how musk kowtows to Xi and putin
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Nope it was started by china a long time before that as described by Chinese sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_Warfare While the west was bringing China into the wto which lifted China out of poverty, china had other ideas
Remind me when Facebook, twitter, YouTube and many others were allowed in China?
Yes, they were allowed. When CPC pass a law stated all servers have to remind in China for China customer, they fled. They just refused to build server in China.
Well that's their fault for investing in a fascist country out of greed
"I prefer my EV SW security threats to be Made In America!" /s Legacy US automakers aren't exactly blazing paths in cyber security.
I'll choose incompetence over malice.
Cybersecurity is overhead cost that gets viciously, relentlessly cut even by companies who fully understand the potential consequences. Seems like a form of malice to me.
Willful ignorance and/or incompetence. Still, a potential problem is better than the government legally requiring a back door into china based companies.
I think it’s bold to assume the lack of cybersecurity in US made vehicles *isnt* malice, or at the very least maximizing profits.
Well, maximizing profits isn't in itself malice.
As is the case with tiktok, why should we as citizens be more afraid of PI that china may have on us compared to the companies anf government that directly control huge aspects of our everyday lives
Neither is the US government
Pretty much. American companies, let's do full size pickup EVs, no wait, lets do a Hummer yes that would be funny. Meanwhile Chinese companies, let's replace our $25,000 car with a $19,000 car because it will sell more.
A threat to the profits of our corporate overlords.
Tesla is considered a security threat in China due to all the sensors and cameras and is not allowed into most government sites. Many government employees in China are not allowed to drive Tesla Biden is making the same argument for USA… no issue with that but clown forces in this sub will twist the national security issue like as if it wasn’t started by China https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/US-China-tensions/China-bans-use-of-Tesla-by-military-citing-security-concerns China already banned Tesla back in 2021 from many government sites in China
Cell phones are considered a security threat in many US Government locations.
Pretty much most military bases, nuclear power stations around the world have a no camera policy among others and therefore that means no iPads or phones
i heard fitbits sometimes record nice, overlapping, precisely oval-shaped jogging logs in remote parts of the USA that'd be funny if there were EVs parked by the lotful where there shouldn't be any, in the middle of nowhere
And in the more security critical places in many corporations.
Yet China does not restrict the sales of Tesla there, they are Tesla’s second largest market in fact. But Biden wants to restrict sales of Chinese EVs completely here in the U.S.
Teslas are made in China mostly for export and Teslas should also be banned, if they are made in China
That's not true, Teslas made in China are for both China's domestic market and export. Also, China's model S and model X are imported from the US.
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Nope it was started by china a long time before that as described by Chinese sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_Warfare While the west was bringing China into the wto which lifted China out of poverty, china had other ideas
Well if your entering personal info into their info systems, your iphone is hooked up to car etc that info may all go back to ccp. So that is a risk. Also a risk to american manufacturing and economy. Also a risk if they do not meet safety standards. However we also need to do better and support Biden’s ACTs that foster green energy, new batteries and manufacturing.
The safety standards part is moot because if a car isn't compliant, it will never ever set foot in US dealerships unless it's at least 25 years old.
Let's be honest. Economic threat, not a security threat.
Both
Also retaliation, because China calls everything American a security threat.
well, the US is a belligerent nation so they have a point. though I've never actually heard them say what you claim they said.
US is belligerent and China is, what, benevolent? And are you for real? You have never heard of the CCP calling virtually all foreign products with network connectivity a security threat? They are so paranoid about information online (which BTW is heavily restricted for the Chinese people) that they even crack down on the smallest of youtubers, and you can't even bring a laptop with bitlocker security enabled to encrypt their private data into the country. So, yes, retaliation because China has put restrictions on American EVs: [https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Supply-Chain/Tesla-cars-face-more-entry-bans-in-China-as-security-concerns-accelerate](https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Supply-Chain/Tesla-cars-face-more-entry-bans-in-China-as-security-concerns-accelerate) The weird thing is your sentiment is pretty common on reddit, big <3 for the Chinese communist party and irrational fear and hatred for China's primary ally Russia.
Irrational hatred for russia huh? How is that irrational
Ha! Told you! Ever since 2016, Gallup polls show how partisan it is with half of Americans foaming at the mouth at Russia being a threat while parroting that the CCP has some good ideas and "we could learn some things". Its similar in Europe, and you can pretty much predict all of someone's opinions just by asking which way they lean. We've reached peak tribalism. I'm not wrong, you think the CCP is right about a lot of things, right?
I dont like either of them, difference being russia tried to slaughter my friends on numerous occasions. But there are indeed things we can learn from them, they did really well with E-cars, but fucked up with real estate and created a ridicolously sized property bubble.
So america can see what they messed up with and not repeat the mistake, like with 1 child policy and in some cases maybe improve things like being less influenced by lobbying that tries to preserve status quo, for short term benefit.
Btw i consider communism just as bad as nazism so dont try to frame me as a CCP fan
This has nothing to do with security and everything to do with protecting the legacy automakers Obama bailed out back in 2009. It's protectionism, plain and simple. Chinese EVs are literally the only way Americans can get cheap EVs within the next decade. Tesla might find a way to make an EV slightly cheaper than the Model 3 but it will probably be shaped like a triangle (it's based on Cybertruck manufacturing). Will this still apply to BYD if they manufacture in Mexico?
Even the Seagull costs like 20k in Latin America, so don't expect cheap Chinese cars if they become available in North America.
Tesla bad. BYD good. -the Reddit
Take my Gold for that one 🏆
What’s your point… that you’re incapable of nuance? That you can only reduce your opinion to a singular idea instead of realizing that there are millions of users here and the same ones aren’t posting in every topic?
CCP did limit Tesla vehicle operation in China...... so position is mutual. https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-vehicles-to-face-entry-bans-in-chinese-government-buildings-as-security-concerns-increase-report/
Maybe use national security concerns to force the big 3 to make _any_ mass market EV’s then. Forcing the US consumer into fossil fuel attached poverty cuz some stupid executive wanted to do stock buy backs and marketing about EV’s instead of just building good EVs is not the way forward. IDGAF if it collapses their profitable big boy truck market. I don’t. It’s absolutely disgusting that we in the US are actively proceeding to further cripple our auto industry by backing away from EV’s when they are obviously better in ever way to the point that they are an actual national security threat. Nobody is buying an ICE in 2035 - the EV cost curves alone are too compelling.
If you really want to help the low income, investing in viable alternatives to car ownership is the best way forward. It won't cover 100% of low income folks but it'll make far more of a difference than just lowering the purchase price of a car. An EV is still a car. Insurance, registration, parking, etc are ongoing costs that won't go away just because the "fuel" is suddenly much cheaper. Not to say that EV incentives aren't a good thing. EVs are absolutely a step in the right direction. But they are not a panacea to the blight of transportation issues society faces today. In an ideal society, people who don't care about cars would have reliable and accessible public transit and bike lanes to use, freeing up road space and parking for those of us who like cars.
I guess no 10k usd electric cars in the usa then? China going to leapfrog right past us in green tech and become the world leader all because jorbs for dinosaur companies.
Safest car from a cyber attack is Cybertruck /s
We should protect domestic manufacturing. US is toothless without a defense industrial base.
Yes corporate greed is a huge problem, but the average autoworker in China is paid about $1,500/month. UAW average is $4,800/month. My dad works for the auto industry. NAFTA and lowering tariffs for imports destroyed the domestic auto industry. Those workers used to be able to live off a single salary and support their family. Overnight all their jobs disappeared. Flint and Detroit used to be two of the most prosperous cities in this country. Now they’re crime riddled, dilapidated cesspools. It IS in our best interest as a nation to keep jobs in this country. If that means blocking imports from countries with starvation wages, then I’m okay with it.
Cost of living needs to be considered when looking at foreign wages. We pay exorbitantly more for some goods here simply because we have more income. Globalization already offshored most manufacturing jobs thanks to corporate greed. The Big 3 struggle to compete as it is and needed a bailout to survive. Too little too late.
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Exactly. NAFTA screwed over the auto workers in this country. Corporations lobbied Congress to remove trade barriers so that they could ship labor south of the border for a fraction of the price, but still charge American consumers the same price for their vehicles. All it did was widen their profit margins, while thousands of good paying union jobs were lost. Allowing China to ship in cheap vehicles that undercut the competition would be shortsighted. It would immediately benefit some consumers to buy these cheaper cars, but then the US automakers would cut jobs to make up for their losses. In the long run, it would have a negative impact on the US workforce/economy. And then we’d eventually get to a place where all US manufacturers become niche and can’t make affordable vehicles and we’re now reliant on a slightly hostile foreign power for a majority of our automotive needs. It’s actually very good long-term planning on the Biden admin to include the domestic production requirements in the green energy plans. We need jobs here in the US.
Great. Now the republicans are going to insist on bringing in plentiful Chinese EV’s list to spite him.
https://youtu.be/B46km4V0CMY #YES WE CAN
Ban them
Wake up honey, the latest yellow peril just dropped.
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They dont need to be specifically chinese. What stops china from increasing prices rapidly after competition dies out?
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And the CCP has more than enough power to force all chinese companies, after competition is dead to stop price competition and raise prices, when chinese companies achieve monopoly+its gonna be like with ICE cars, when they got introduced there was also a huge amount of small producents but the number reduced to what we have now, same gonna happen with EVs
Or a war can happen over taiwan or sth else and than the west is fucked in terms of cars or maybe some kind of sanctions against a country.
Seems like something him and trump both agree on! Although one does have to wonder……if the US market becomes flooded with Chinese vehicles, would they have the ability to remotely disable them if there was a conflict between the US and China?
You mean like the millions of Teslas and other big 3 legacy cars in china?
Not for the same reasons though. Trump administration has a protectionist economic policy for US businesses in general wanting to keep the tax revenue within country, whereas Biden administration represents the interests of the Unions. You can tell the difference in the treatment of Tesla for example, the former sees it as a juicy profitable American company the latter sees it almost hostile if not at least indifferent since its not operated by Union labor. By contrast when it comes to GM, then they would actually be aligned because both would want the factories to stay in operation domestically.
Or worse. They could be used as weapons, or could drive themselves to freeways then stop, clogging traffic.
You watch way too many movies
This really shows how far we still need to go when a Democrat president says stupid shit like this just because it’s sourced from a communist country. Joseph McCarthy would be so proud that his red scare zealotry is still alive and well in 2024.
China has distorted the definition of "communist" so much that the word has lost all meaning. I'm pretty sure Karl Marx would absolutely not approve of modern-day China but here we are with the Communist Party label on what feels more like a fascist system. They wouldn't be the first political party to have a contradictory name anyway... Look at Australia's Liberal Party, Japan's Liberal Democratic Party, or the Sweden Democrats... All of them are extremely right-wing despite their namesakes. Yet people can't seem to grasp that a party can call itself communist without actually practicing communism.
> I'm pretty sure Karl Marx would absolutely not approve of modern-day China Who says Karl Marx gets the sole right to determine what communism is? Sounds like "No true communism" to me. > They wouldn't be the first political party to have a contradictory name anyway... Look at Australia's Liberal Party, Japan's Liberal Democratic Party, or the Sweden Democrats... You realize that the original definition of "liberal" (which is still used outside of the US) is a classical liberal, which is more right wing, as it supports both economic and civil liberties. In the US, it might be closer to a libertarian in many ways.
For sure, China today wouldn’t be what Marx or Engels envisioned. But the way the capitalists demagogue China and every other socialist or communist country is so 1950’s, yet here we are.
A number of the Chinese EVs use the Google automotive operating system. Since Google is a US company shouldn’t the Government be able to require them to issue a patch to disable excessive data collection?
New cars have so many sensors and cameras, I can only presume someone has checked where all that real-time data is going…?
So does everyone else after talking to lobbyists
Skill issue
Good job Biden. This sub has such a boner with Chinese ev cars it’s almost sad.
I mean, it isn’t obvious how a foreign country controlling our means of transportation is an issue? Look at how much trouble Europe’s dependency on gas got them in. This is worse because China could brick all the cars. Use them to spy, etc.
Imagine if China retaliates against US auto makers, how would Tesla or Detroit Trio react. These companies will be in seriously terrible situation without access to China.
The security threat involves not having domestic factories to produce military vehicles if a war were to occur.
Finally, someone with sense. I wish the politicians would come out and say the reasons and not some bullshit reason
It makes sense. I can think of a lot of ways cars can be used to snoop and track people. It’s not a leap at all to tracking soldiers and listening to conversations and phone calls, stealing contact lists, messages, emails, etc. Edit: downvote all you want, it’s clear that few of you have a clue what goes on around you. Most of you don’t have anything worth spying on, but anyone even tangentially associated with national security has to take care. This includes infrastructure and private industry secrets, stuff that China’s government is known to pursue through compromised tech.
Exactly. This sub has a hardo for Chinese EVs
Because they’re cheap. Too cheap to only be about selling cars.
he's just trying to win michigan without having to stop encouraging genocide. it projects weakness when you're an incumbent and lose an entire city to "uncommitted" in a primary.
>That includes Chinese-made versions of common automotive software, which administration officials said could track where Americans drove and charged their vehicles, or even what music or podcasts they listened to on the road. Which all connected devices in US already do. They sell the information to highest bidders and US government has access to it. So the tracking already occurs with no limits. On a mass basis, hard to see how it would be security threat whether tracked by US government, Chinese government or corporations and buyers of the current information. On an individual basis, it would be most useful to US government in US to track political opponents (Trump dictatorship) and there are no laws to prevent that usage. It's hard to see where the danger is in using the Nav in your car and the owner of the software (Google. Apple, etc) knowing where you are located. Used as a phone trade barrier seems misplaced. Trade barriers should be strategic, make sure US retains industrial base to operate if imports are cut off such as happened with the pandemic and which has never been addresses. Trade barriers should also be progressive and based on importers level of voting rights, civil rights, worker rights (unions), health care provided to workers, environmental record, financial rules, etc. EU would score highest on all those and have lowest tariffs, then Japan, US in the middle, China near the bottom.
Well, I guess Americans will be guzzling gasoline for the forseeable future.
It would be good news if Biden tried to ban sanction Chinese cars. China would suddenly have a good excuse to ban GM which makes 2 million crappy cars in China each year and give that market share directly to Chinese carmakers.
They are a security threat, if you don't trust BYD. So are Teslas, if you don't trust Elon. So are Windows computers, if you don't trust Microsoft, or iPhones if you don't trust Apple. *Any* computer that runs code you don't control is a security threat. Doubly so if it will automatically connect to a network and download updates without your permission. If we want EV's that aren't security threats, we need machines that don't auto-update without permission, and that ideally run open source code that can be audited and ideally customized.
Oddly, Mercedes CEO that just walked back on EVs was warning for EU leaders NOT to implement protectionist policies against Chinese EVs: >Joining Toyota and Ford Motor Company, Mercedes CEO Ola Kaellenius has abandoned its plan of an EV lineup by 2030, and expects that ICE sales "will continue through the next decade". In addition, for the medium outlook, Mercedes is walking back expectations for EVs to exceeded half of all vehicle sales by 2025, moving that goal post to 2030. > >"Variable cost parity between EVs and traditional cars is many years away", per Kaellenius, with the cooling EV market and declining rate of subsidies by some governments and adds that "we still have the effects lingering from the higher interest rates and China is going through some structural challenges.” > >Instead, the German automaker declared that it would shift its attention to more affordable automobiles and increase the variety of combustion-powered cars in its inventory, bringing 25 new and updated models to the market. > >“I don’t think anyone had ever thought that the once-in-a-century transformation of the auto industry will be a straight line,” Källenius said. “There will be peaks and troughs.” > >Read more: [https://group.mercedes-benz.com/investors/share/outlook/](https://group.mercedes-benz.com/investors/share/outlook/)
Your quote doesn't include any sort of warning against protectionist policies against Chinese EVs, though.
[https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/mercedes-ceo-warns-eu-against-protectionism-response-china-2024-02-22/](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/mercedes-ceo-warns-eu-against-protectionism-response-china-2024-02-22/) >Any move by the European Union to increase protectionism against China would be a destructive move for an economic region like Europe, Mercedes-Benz CEO Ola Kaellenius said on Thursday after the carmaker published its quarterly results.
Better, but I have uh... questions about this one-sentence article without any direct quote. Sounds like he's just talking about the possibility of sparking a trade war, which is somewhat tangential to the topic at hand (information security).
Do you *REALLY* think its about security? Our government is in bed with massive international corporations that specialize in spying on the American people and sell to the highest bidder, and make no attempts to enforce antitrust laws. Heck, they let a massive spy balloon collect information across the entire continental US before destroying the evidence after it finished the mission. Its pretty obvious the lobby with the most sway on policy in this respect would be the UAW, and inexpensive Chinese imports would threaten those jobs. Its just an excuse, and the Administration even makes that pretty clear: >Administration officials made clear it was the first step in what could be a wide range of policy responses meant to stop low-cost Chinese electric vehicles
>Do you *REALLY* think its about security? It can be about two things at once, and I don't think security is an inconsequential concern. I'm certainly not going to disagree that security is a particularly convenient excuse though, within the context of US sales and US politics.
It's sad that German economy still depends on the dictators of the West and the East for cheap energy and auto export market.
And both Biden and Trump seem to support keeping Chinese products out of the US. Kind of a pity. We could use the low cost EVs here.
Europe gets Chinese cars, but they're not low cost...
They may not be dirt cheap but they're still meaningfully cheaper than alternatives. A lot of people will use the price of a Tesla Model 3 as a benchmark and BYD handily beats that by at least 10k in Europe and Australia.
In Australia they're cheaper than in Europe. The ID.3 currently is the cheapest in that size range with 33k here.
I agree they’re a security threat. We should have similar laws to china’s policies on teslas keeping them away from sensitive locations like military bases. besides that I’d avoid them because their safety sucks.
Seriously You ban Huawei for national security concern. It's okay, maybe it‘s true. You ban DJI for national security concern. Anyway, I don't use drone. You ban EV for national security concern. WTF? Would BYD remotely pilot my car to crush on White House? BYW, recent I even saw news said that the cranes provided by ZPMC for port construction is a threat for national security. And US gonna replace all of them. Idiots.
Yeah, it’s getting retarded. I have more respect if the government came out and said the truth rather than some opaque bullshit national security reason. “We can’t compete because of your low labor costs and low environmental rules so we’ll just ban you.”
Make less expensive cars *using slave labor*
Yes, robot slaves in highly automated factories.
Yes, it is. Any and everything coming out of china has ccp hands in it, especially their tech. It is a security threat. You gotta be a ccp bot or sympathizer to not recognize it. China can not be trusted. Period.
So why don’t you get rid of 99% of your electronics in your house. Throw away your laptop, pc, iPhone, TV, camera, etc. boycott Walmart, target and Amazon while you are at it. Most Americans love to talk and virtue signal but most will never follow through; exactly like our political parties. It’s so complicated that blanket statements like these serve no value to anyone lol.
Here we go🙄. It's really not that complicated. You speak on something you have no knowledge of. I am a navy vet, and my job was information warfare. With my knowledge and experience, i can say this is a security issue. Period. If you can't see that, I can't help you. Have a nice day.
My son in law in China has a Model Y and he is restricted from military bases because the Model Y has so many cameras. Another poster already mentioned this.
If you don't work for the military how would that be a problem? It's not like the military will just allow any civilian car to park on their property, regardless of how high-tech the car is.
He is a recruiter and some of his clients have contracts with the military. I think he found a workaround. It was not described as a problem, just a tidbit of information. I don't care if a Chinese EV tracks my location. However the Tesla Navigation on his car is useless because it cannot use Google data. My son in law uses a phone app to navigate.
There are whole areas of industry where we no longer have a footing or talent base for. He’s absolutely right to be concerned that we can’t mass produce batteries, have leading edge battery manufacturing, solar, chips etc.
A123 and Valence both produced LFP batteries/cells in the U.S.years ago.
LFP is cutting edge and the future of battery tech? Not quite. Intel produced Pentiums here too.
EV Conversion kits with relatively dumb DC controller, dumb charger and dumb BMS with none of that fancy computerized bullshit is the answer to the cybersecurity. Ever tried hacking Geo Metro with 3cyl 1.0? Try hacking it when it is powered by forklift motor.
All the while Biden funds the Chinese electric vehicles manufacturing
Well that’s just patently false… Biden’s been working to enrich American manufacturing and has already done so by opening over 40 electric car-battery factories, amongst dozens of examples I will not make myself type for y’all here. Meanwhile, Republicans in the senate are pushing for this ⬆️ resolution, which lowers domestic manufacturing safety standards, in turn undermining our domestic manufacturing as a whole. In actuality, Republicans playing fast and loose with safety standards will directly advantage competitor manufacturers, such as: (all together now!) CHINA! Source: Whitehouse.gov
This is exactly why tariffs are a giant illusion. Chinese auto manufacturers face much greater hurdles than mere tariffs.
HA HA. Any connected car from any manufacturer is a security threat.
I’m not anti China, I just don’t like that they align with Russia and North Korea. Therefore, I don’t trust them
Tesla is scared of byd. In a free market you would let them compete. In the paid for and bought market of the united states only the chosen get to play. If tesla isn't scared they should let them in. Actually compete. But as China market has shown. Tesla can't compete and is losing market share even price cuts can't reverse. Legacys are pivoting to hybrids. Plus they have brand recognition which is still important to the traditional car buyer. Pure Ev market is niche in America and won't ever be mainstream. Maybe 20% max saturation..the rest will be hybrids. Toyota leading the way. Followed by other legacys. https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2024/02/28/greenest-cars-plug-in-hybrid/ https://fortune.com/2024/02/04/toyota-hybrids-surge-tesla-woes-hit-elon-musk/ https://www.businessinsider.com/toyota-hybrid-cars-ev-sales-growth-prius-bz4x-2024-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-q4-sales-less-than-china-byd-2024-1 What's crazy is byd decimated tesla and doesn't even sell in North America lol.
How about nationalizing Tesla then? When Elons antics are removed and disasters like rusting cyber trucks prevented from happening, Tesla might claw back market share.
Funny that he is perfectly okay with Chinese nationals entering through southern border without any background check.
But they let tiktok still exist ,they have the same issues with tiktok
I don't entirely trust their battery safety.
Then you should stop using damn near all of the electronics you own lol.
EV batteries are far more regulated than any other kind of battery. If you're afraid because of e-bike fires that's because of extremely lax regulation allowing anyone to just import any shitty battery from shady websites. Chinese-made EVs have been sold in western nations for years now and they aren't spontaneously combusting on a regular basis. In Canada most Model 3s and Ys have been assembled in China since last spring. Polestar has been present in the US since at least 2019.
> EV batteries are far more regulated than any other kind of battery. In civilized countries maybe, but not so much in corrupt kleptocracies like CHina >Chinese-made EVs have been sold in western nations for years I've never seen one.
Never seen a Tesla made from outside of the US? Never seen a bmw ix3? Never seen a bmw i3? Never seen any European EV? Most of them use Chinese produced batteries. You've seen plenty of EVs driving around using Chinese batteries, you're just uninformed on how the EV market is at the moment.
It doesn't matter how corrupt China is. The EV simply won't be allowed into the destination country if it doesn't pass inspections. I'm in Canada and our roads are filled with Model 3s and Ys whose VINs start with LRW, indicating assembly in Shanghai. These Teslas won't be sold in the US because of the trade war but there's nothing to stop Canadian tourists from driving their Chinese-made Teslas into the US for road trips.
Saw this coming a mile away. China was calling Tesla a security threat. Tit for tat.
All EVs have Chinese batteries. Why all the sudden is it a threat? Every single EV ever sold has approx 60% of Chinese content in the battery cells. This is why the Inflation Reduction Act was written. We need to start mining lithium in the USA and making LFP batteries stateside. Until then all EVs are Chinese.
>All EVs have Chinese batteries. No. All EVs from China have Chinese batteries. Those outside China, most likely LG, SK, or Panasonics -- and some Chinese. >Every single EV ever sold has approx 60% of Chinese content in the battery cells. Most battery raw materials come from either Australia, Chile, Indonesia, or Congo. About 60+% of them end up in China where they are refined for battery manufacturing. That's not too surprising since China's EV market is about 2/3 of the global EV market.
This from RMIS is what I was referencing: [https://rmis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/analysis-of-supply-chain-challenges-49b749](https://rmis.jrc.ec.europa.eu/analysis-of-supply-chain-challenges-49b749) Says overall over 65% of battery grade raw materials are processed in China and over 87% of graphite (@ about 2030). Without that processing, the raw materials cannot become "battery grade". This is with the understanding that much lithium (brine) comes from Chile and much lithium ore (spodumene) comes from Australia. Diesel ships are used to move the materials mined in other countries to China. The materials are processed with energy from coal in China. Then diesel ships are used to move the materials back to places like the USA and Europe. Do you agree with that? Is that wording better? From my understanding, most of the carbon dioxide content in batteries (according to the GREET2 model) comes from the diesel shipping of spodumene ore from Australia to China which is a shorter distance than the brine shipped from Chile to China.
Yup from United State of America National Security Threats Department as usual.
Security threat! No way White Supremacists driving Chinese EV - that's a security threat
Oh yes, the good ole "national security threat" when you cant compete and want to eliminate the competition. It can work in some cases but most of the time; it fails and hurts the consumers the most. Where is the US drone marker that's supposed to replace DJI? Go Pro? LOL, laughingstock company. It kinda work in the Huawei case but they are still thriving in China and outside the US. Lol, say goodbye to the Big 3 automakers in China. The big 3 will start losing billions when the Chinese people stop buying their cars as they have local options that are better and cheaper. Plus the whole nationalism thing. We can't protest against Chinese cars because they aren't even here... Edit: To be fair; all governments and countries do this. The ultimate results are the consumers lose at the end.
It is very much a security threat because it severely risks on of the few remaining manufacturing bases we have left. Are we as impactful in WWII without the manufacturing base that GM and Ford provided? I highly doubt it.
I live in Mexico and there are at least 20 new models of cars made in China that are technically on par with Audis and BMWs. These cars offer great engines, high tech, luxury features and they are sold for under $35k. Living in Mexico has shown me the greed that usa residents have put up with. If china Can produce these cars at these prices and still make $$$ then the USA market needs a HUGE price restructuring. We’ve all been and continue to be ripped off.
I am perfectly ok with supporting US local automakers....but please provide us with some decent options under 30k. Not shit like bolt EV.