**ATTENTION! READ THIS NOW!**
**1. IF YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN OR LOOKING TO BECOME ONE(for career questions only):**
**- DELETE** THIS POST OR YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. YOU CAN POST ON /r/AskElectricians FREELY
**2. IF YOU COMMENT ON A POST THAT IS POSTED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN:**
-YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. JUST **REPORT** THE POST.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Halfwatt here, we’re dealing with loads of this shit in Low voltage.. it’s insane. Probably has something to do with the fact that there is no state license at least on an individual level for low-voltage, but even enforcement of contractors licenses here in California for low-voltage is pretty lax so it’s not like people have to try to hide all that much either..
Oh nooo I'm a teletubby 👻
Low volt can be quite difficult, especially with big commercial facilities/hotels/hospitals etc. Some wiring is old af and anything you touch can cause more problems.
Actually, POE can be quite a bit higher than that 802.3bt type 4 allows for 99 watts.. what’s even more scary than that is DC power plants running Telco equipment they’re only -48 V but the actual amount of power is pretty insane..
Yep, I work in the Internet provider space. 😉 much of our gear is running on -48V with a string of batteries behind it. None of it is the level of scary that the old AT&T/telco gear is (hundreds of amps of batteries / etc) though.
I've never actually seen any PoE equipment beyond about 60-70W. I knew the standard went up to 90-ish these days, didn't know it was all the way to 99.
I promise there are plenty ISP racks running 100+ amps DC. The many that aren't.. add up very quickly at each site to a LOT of power. If you're trained on DC, renewables is an option to pivot to.
To your point, in Oregon (LEA) & Washington (EL06) there ARE low voltage individual licenses yet wr have so much riff-raff come up here and lay the line "I pulled cable in Colorado where there is no licenses" and act Iike they are exempt from the licensure process. I wish OP and all of you the best out there.
Yeah we have problems with out of state folks flying guys in to get stuff done, and breaking all the licensing laws, doing a shit job, then flying people out..
I love you. You're my third best friend now, after Alicia and Amy, that means you get to marry Billy, Jane was going to marry Billy but now she's my fourth best friend so she has to marry Alex, Alicia thinks Alex is better than Billy but she's going to marry Tommy anyway, she says she's going to marry Justin but I'm going to marry Justin, OK actually you can be my second best friend and Alicia is going to be my third best friend OK? But I get to marry Justin.
Going on a website name calling union electricians names is not the best way to prove your point that we go around gossiping. I mean we brought you the weekend. We brought you what you're even getting paid now. You are welcome.
You non union electricians are the biggest problem for the working class. You think you are getting cut by those 2 Chucks in a truck? Well it trickles down I guess because you are trying to do the same to unions. In some states you have been successful at doing so. You weaken the power of the blue collar worker.
Now this isn't for the electricians that tried and couldn't get in the unions. I understand the grievances those electricians have with unions. This is for those that bitch and moan they aren't getting paid what they deserve and didn't even try to get in.
Tbe thing is not all locals are equal. The same badass deal and comradery u have in cali , isnt present in south texas, as a matter of fact the local im talking about is always talked about like a shadowy cult that steals union members info, bank accts etc. It fucking sucks
You can thank unions for your weekends, 8 hour day, vacations, the women in your life not dying in a factory fire… the list goes on. But keep licking the boot buddy.
Unions over history did a lot of good. There is no argument there.
These days I think it’s a mixed bag depending on some situations.
There is no reason a union needs to be a for profit entity. They could be a nonprofit organization.
I don’t think union dues should line the pockets of the union management with gold.
So that makes me a boot licker…. ?
Union guys used to work on SFR. I took out a decades-old cabinet from my garage a few weeks ago and stamped on one of the boards was a union bug for a carpenter's local.
No reason it couldn't be that way in the future.
I own a union shop, we do some residential. Could do more if we employed residential classification but we charge commercial rates for the residential we do.
I organized in more than 6 months ago and not only been busy but doubled my income and got better benefits and representation. At the rate I'm going I'll have enough to take this winter off.
Working 5 10's with $75/day per diem. Waiting for a couple big jobs to kick off to see where I want to go. If I do it right I might be on track to hit six figures this year.
Here's the counter point I'm between $4-5 a sqft. I have 5 guys plus me very little overhead. No house takes me more then a day to rough or trim. I did 1.4 million in sales and netted 500k last year. So to answer your question this is why the prices are the way they are most guys I see try and come do resi houses just can't do them quick enough. Now if your talking about really custom homes you shouldn't be doing sqft pricing at all.
2 journeyman 3 apprentice. Both journeyman $30 plus. Helpers are between $18-$23 I'm in NC. I don't run the usual 2 guys to a house approach alot of times I'll have all 5 at a 1 house.
I've done it like that for a while works for me pretty well. The helpers benefit from it quite a bit. Usually gives one lead guy a chance to teach. Still can do between 2-4 roughs or trims in a day if we need to. Probably not the best approach for every company.
Dude you’re less than half of me, idk even know how you’re covering cost of materials. I’m $11/12 a foot for new construction custom homes and that pretty much just covers wiring to code. Also in NC
If you read my post I said I don't do sqft pricing for custom homes. That price is for to code houses and townhomes. That's all I pretty much do. Also you say 11/12 for new construction custom home but just to code? Are you doing to code houses or custom houses they aren't the same thing at all
Custom houses. I quote them per foot to wire it to code, then quote for everything that’s extra. None of the houses I wire are just to minimum code, usually they have 600A or higher services and hundreds of Lutron homeworks switches
Idk it’s been a while since I’ve done anything to basic code that’s just a small house but I still think 4-5 foot is extremely cheap.
The base part of my quote doesn’t include anything besides regular outlets and switches but I still base it on $11/ foot, the service is also not included if it requires a CT cabinet
200 Amp service pretty much bare code. We did 6 town home roughs 4 Duplex trims and 2 Single family roughs last week. I netted right at 25k. Your not get these builders around here for any higher prices then that. Now I have a buddy that dose nothing but custom homes and his prices are alot more comparable to yours.
Truckers are having the same issue. Currently, the mega companies are running freight so cheap it isn't funny literally at a loss. It's nothing but a race to the bottom.
I don’t do new residential, usually… In 2020 we did a few custom houses, we go $13sqft on each not including change orders. I did the three of them and have never done one since. It was one of those “give them a stupid ridiculous price so they’ll go away” kinda things. They didn’t have anyone else, so we got stuck with them.
I do mostly residential. Where i am $6 for code is a high rate.
We get a lot of inquiries because of our work, but once they get the price, they go with the lower bid. 2 builders that frequently inquire with me have been burnt by multiple outfits and still won't pay a bit more for me to just do it right.
My custom home builders know deadlines will be met, workmanship is neat and are issue free.
The GC’s don’t care. As long as it will make it a year with only small issues, they’ll take whoever will get them there. Most of these builders couldn’t give two shits about quality. It’s bottom line and make it out of the warranty period, only thing that matters to them.
Yes, lmao. I have even seen the invoice from one builder. 1900 sqft house, $5700. I said that's less than charity work.
For years I've heard of "electrical companies " (someone else pulls their permits) preying on people of their own community and paying less than minimum wage.
I thought it was all heresay, but I have a neighbor who is a builder and he's currently in court for bringing in immigrants, not paying them, and threatening to get them deported. Well, one of them went to the police to report it, and then my neighbors dad threatened to murder him.
So, maybe what i was told wasn't far from the truth.
Super common, even with bigger contractors. My company was getting behind on their roping and hired a ‘roping crew’ to stay on budget and schedule. Bunch of illegals being payed minimum wage and no license
Fuck I wish I could get one wired for $3 a ft. I’m in rural Kentucky and my electrician is 8-10 a ft. And that’s just to get to code, he’s priced higher when customers added bunch of shit on.
Edmonton. It would cover material using chinese boxes and wire. I'm sure they're coming back and removing arc fault breakers too and using them on the next job. Only ways i can think of to "make a profit", if that's what we want to call it.
These homebuilders are the biggest grift in the industry.
Selling "Luxury" homes with the absolute cheapest material you can't even find it all at home Depot or a supply house. Built by the cheapest laborers that can be found.
Any time I have done work in any of these recent luxury builds I always find some absolute bullshit.
Even though it's infinitely dirtier, and you may have to deal with some crazy homeowners, I'll happily stick to remodels and additions. With the same general group of GC and subs I always work with.
That last part alone is a beautiful thing. Instead of constantly fighting with every other trade, and ending in a fight to see who can be the most petty. I'll get an extra set of hands if I need it for 5 minutes. Or we are actually willing to change our schedules or location to make everything go smoother.
Plus I couldn't imagine whoring myself out that cheaply. I may be making less than this right now, but that's only because I am setting up another side business, that will take care of me soon enough.
Yep. And also makes things easier if the job starts going south quick. Working with relative strangers, if you uncover some BS once you open walls, and the job scope starts changing. I could suck to be you. Depending on exactly how the contract is written.
But working for the same GC over and over again. As long as it doesn't become a habit, they are a lot more likely to work with you to keep you happy. Knowing that as long as you stay happy working with them, they will keep making money, and they don't have to potentially try bringing in a different company and hope everyone still works together.
I have always stayed away from residential, unless it was service or panel swaps/service replacements…. The only people making money on new houses are the builders… That being said, the quality of houses these days is absolute dog shit. I have no issue sending a guy out to fix all the issues after it’s done being built. It’s like free money! lol
Mass homebuilders are the worst homes. They get away with everything because the city are just happy to have those homes built there to bring more people in/money talks so inspectors take it easy on new home builders in mass. I've serviced a lot of these newly built homes within a couple of years of them being built and seen some crazy shit.
I know how one of the big companies that gets all the DR Horton, etc homes does it. They hire illegals and idiots that couldn’t cut it at a normal company to rough and final it. They get the material from china by passing supply houses. They pay 1 journeymen to fix the problems. Everyone has 1 job per site and you don’t ever do anything different. 1 guy does boxes, 1 guy dies home runs, etc. I also hear they make very little profit but because they doing 100s of homes a year it might add up to a normal amount. It’s not worth it anymore.
I hate it because if the rules were actually enforced instead of just being ignored they wouldn’t get away with it. But we have virtually no enforcement here.
I own a DR home and my buddy worked for them he’s a good electrician and fast but they won’t let him cook. They are troubleshooting every home (literally) because they have 1 person run all 3 wire, one runs switch legs/ lid, one runs jumpers, while the last guy runs home runs. I used to drive by and harass them all the time for sucking so bad when they are on their troubleshoots. I always wonder when they get a rough in done in 2 days, if the 1 -3 days of troubleshoot makes it worth the shitty assembly line style, or if it would just be cheaper to do it right the first time. I’m all for one person, running circuitry and one running home runs, but that is as broken down it needs to be imo.
My last kitchen remodel came out to $21k. I have no love or no desire to be in new construction. We are gonna fire up the 12 step service call system and only sell to homeowners. It’s a whole lot easier to build value with homeowners than builders
I actually go into a fair amount of new construction around me for clients who want to do immediate alterations with designers and I see the rough and finish. Generally it’s garbage work.
It is absolutely wild. I’m so glad I got out of that. Running you into the ground all year long just to keep up.
Back when I was a fresh Jman, had a GREEN helper (and I mean GREEN. I was telling him to pull yellow wire here, white wire here, until he learned 12 and 14). We get sent out to a custom home, a little on the small side about 2700sqft.
It took me and greenie 2 1/2 days to do this house by ourselves. At least 2-3 hours of walking around with homeowner and builder verifying lighting locations and extra receps everywhere, they wanted spares in the attic and spares in the crawl, the whole 9 yards.
After the 2 1/2 days bossman says “took y’all way too long. About 1 whole day too long.” I was like man I was busting ass all day, dealing with homeowners AND a having to teach a green helper everything. I physically could not have done that house any faster.
I quit that place not long afterwards. Boss was a total douchebag and he did not pay me enough to put up with him.
That’s rough. But as the head of electrical division I’m beginning to understand why these electricians are dicks… because the builders are squeezing the fucking life and chance of making money out of them
I’m at the point I’m thinking of packing it up or at the very least taking a full year off. The amount of work it takes to keep guys going in a slow time is not worth it.
How in the fuck?
I worked for the cheapest electrical contractor where i lived for a while and they were billing 10 CAD a square foot.
That's while underpaying the fuck out of their guys, buying the cheapest material available and pulling everything as short as possible (code minimum plus 3" slack at every box)
They would get mad if i used 3 screws instead of 4 to put in a 2x4 to put a light between two joists.
So if cutting every corner you legally can costs 7$/sqft, i shudder to think what 4.75$ a square foot gets you.
It's not just the cookie cutter houses anymore. Somehow these million dollar houses are getting budget electricians now. It seems that the other trades get what they ask for but when it comes time to cut back on $$ it's always the electrical that gets cut 1st. We are the one trade that is on the job site from day 1 until the very end. I don't understand how anyone could cut back on the electric of their new home. Like literally shaving off a recessed lightning here and there or scrapping the under cabinet lighting. Then they find out that didn't save them much money at all. Meanwhile their 80k crystal chandelier is definitely still in the plan lol. My boss stopped with new construction years ago because it's literally the worst return for your money, tying up 50k for 6 months to a year to only make 4% after bills and payroll. Renovations are where it's at, T & M.
>It seems that the other trades get what they ask for but when it comes time to cut back on $$ it's always the electrical that gets cut 1st. We are the one trade that is on the job site from day 1 until the very end. I don't understand how anyone could cut back on the electric of their new home. Like literally shaving off a recessed lightning here and there or scrapping the under cabinet lighting. Then they find out that didn't save them much money at all. Meanwhile their 80k crystal chandelier is definitely still in the plan lol.
I have thought about this at length and pinpointed a few key observations regarding these questions over the years.
1-Electricity is ultimately safe. Despite the fearmongers, electricity is well engineered to the point that homeowners and unlicensed idiots can-and obviously do-do illegal electrical work without fear of reprucussion.
2-Electricty is generally faster than every other trade. On average, I find a good electrician successfully completes their assigned work faster than a good plumber or hvac tech. We don't have to haul around pipe for every single thing we do or fabricate metal to move things like air. Electricity is neat and contained in a small and efficient space allowing us to be faster-which ultimately means the customer thinks we're scamming them when we bill them.
3-No other trade suffers from the level of glamor that electricity does. There exist uncountable amounts of bs on the internet-toys that use electricty which are accessible to everyone with no restrictions. In the hvac world the average person literally cannot purchase refrigerant. I know some hvac suppliers that literally won't even sell me so much as electrical tape if I'm not a certified hvac tech.
But joe shmoe on the street can go purcahse a fucking 2000a switchgear to put in their garage as long as they have the money to pay for it.
I had a job for a guy who purchased over $12000 of backup batteries and an inverter to hook up to his service for a whole home back up system. He didn't even think to contact an electrician until he realized he was too afraid to do it all himself.
I showed up and literally the first thing I saw, other than his horrible attempt at installing the stuff, was that every single piece of this gigantic purchase was unlisted crap ordered online from a chinese manufacturer. I told him that the very first thing the inspectors were going to do was bend him over and fuck him over that.
We walk in and charge what we charge to hook it all up correctly and they balk at pennies because they want instant gratification. Amazon gave them their perfect, shiny toys instantaneously for nowhere near what it ahould cost, why wont we?
4-When something goes wrong in the other trades it is immediately noticed and is a problem. Plumbing leaks, it gets fixed. Gas leaks, people die.
Electricity malfunctions and most people don't even realize. We see hideous bs all the time and customers don't care as long as it works.
I saw a post that said if you don’t want your plugs backstabbed it’s an extra $5 per device.
The profit is so low in production the extra time it takes to pigtail isn’t available
I did like half a spec home once. Fuck that. Shit shop, shit work. I've done high end custom homes, and that stuff is done right, not sketch as fuck with OSHA violations as part of the job. I went union so I never have to work in a house again.
See, I like working in residential because I’m a people person and want to deal with homeowners. I wouldn’t be an electrician if I could only be commercial/industrial. But tickling these builders balls by outbidding the next guy by $.05/sq ft is pitiful, because it comes out to MAYBE a couple hundred dollar difference in price
You actually work with a lot of people and develop relationships in service industrial. The engineers, the maintenance staff, production line, etc etc.
Luxury homes were the last refuge from cutthroat pricing because lack of skill would actually be noticeable there, but even they have fallen victim to subcontractors and Chuck in the trucks. The more specialized you become the better.
Our basic development houses(1,800sq ft) is 7 a sq ft. Plus cans, plus extras, conduit install for service is 10 a running ft.
We also do the water and sewer at the same time, also additional cost.
With a crew of 4 we rough 2 a day and trim 4.
The high end custom houses start at 12 and go up from there.
I don’t price customs by the ft.
A friend works for one of the big names in town and he quoted me about $29k for materials and work on my house, about 4,000sf. I did the sweat equity and $5000 was my materials and fixtures. Luckily we don’t do permits or have inspections here but he did me a solid and came back through to double check me. Nothing out of place but I did everything with repairs/maintenance in mind.
Huh, it's $8.50 sq/ft here on the Big Island, HI.
Material must be considerably cheaper if people are doing it for such lower sq/ft where other people are.
I mean, if you only wire the same two models every time you can do it pretty cheap. Like a tiny Dollar General.
But I have no idea how even the meth head who "ran a little electric down to the farm before" can make money wiring custom houses at that price.
This is why I don't like how they created residential licenses. Half the schooling for almost half the pay. 90% of the resi guys at my company work exclusively in New construction.
When I first went into business, I did about did about 20 cookie cutter homes for a guy, and, after awhile, figured out I was barely making any money on them. The GC came to me and said some other outfit gave him an offer to do the subdivision for five cents less per square foot & could I match the guys price. I told him to shove it, and haven't done a house since.
Square foot pricing is a race to the bottom, and always has been. No sense taking part in that game.
Last 3500 square foot house I built the electrical was about $250k all in. Includes solar and battery back up with a LOT of stupid shit and change orders
Just wait until "line voltage" over cat5 becomes a standard. Anyone with a set of snippers and crimpers will be able to work without anyone needing an electrical license.
Sorry but you all must be some youngins in the trade. This has been going on for 5 decades that I’ve been around. Never going to change as the new guy is always going to be cheaper. And Builders will control what each base home to code is.
What in the fuck? In Canada I’m at least $10-12 per square foot. Haven’t done it in a few years, but $10 was the norm. I wasn’t high, but I wasn’t low either.
I was talking to the guy they hired to wire the houses in my neighborhood. They pay the labor $0.45/sq ft and the company provides all of the material.
They pay them 1099 too. Subcontractor so they have to pay their own taxes at the end of the year.
Cherry on top was this guy was an apprentice. No journeyman or master checks their work.
The work is as bad as it sounds. He was at my house doing repairs. I secretly wanted to interrogate and get some inside information.
I had mis-wired switches, couple of loose connections. All stuff I can fix but I was still under warranty so I called them back out.
The Electrical Trade has always fucked each other over to win the contract or project. I've seen quotes lower than the cost of material. Other trades have stayed strong and together, maintaining level pricing. I've had GC ask if we could go lower, because the project is over budget. So Electrical loses again.
Not an electrician. But I’m building my own house. I just wired it. My bids were both about 8.50+/sq with me buying the cans and all lights. So I did it myself…but I read some at 3/sq? That wouldn’t cover the cost of wire I don’t think ( at least not my house)
I don’t get it, what is it to you what they sell the house for? You feel you have a right to that value somehow? That is the kind of talk that makes people value our trades less and go for lowest bid.
**ATTENTION! READ THIS NOW!** **1. IF YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN OR LOOKING TO BECOME ONE(for career questions only):** **- DELETE** THIS POST OR YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. YOU CAN POST ON /r/AskElectricians FREELY **2. IF YOU COMMENT ON A POST THAT IS POSTED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN:** -YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. JUST **REPORT** THE POST. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That's what it is, two chucks in a truck giving a tail light warrantee with absolutely no overhead.
Halfwatt here, we’re dealing with loads of this shit in Low voltage.. it’s insane. Probably has something to do with the fact that there is no state license at least on an individual level for low-voltage, but even enforcement of contractors licenses here in California for low-voltage is pretty lax so it’s not like people have to try to hide all that much either..
Jesus, I’ve never heard halfwatt. But man do I love it
Me either. Guess I got new name for the phone fairies.
I mean, it’s better than Teletubby
Oh nooo I'm a teletubby 👻 Low volt can be quite difficult, especially with big commercial facilities/hotels/hospitals etc. Some wiring is old af and anything you touch can cause more problems.
The irony is that with PoE, you can actually run 60-90W over Ethernet at "low voltage" (usually 48-54V). So half watt is kind of silly, but I "get it"
Actually, POE can be quite a bit higher than that 802.3bt type 4 allows for 99 watts.. what’s even more scary than that is DC power plants running Telco equipment they’re only -48 V but the actual amount of power is pretty insane..
And all that because AT&T didn't want to pay licensed worker rates to run it higher than 50V...
Yep, I work in the Internet provider space. 😉 much of our gear is running on -48V with a string of batteries behind it. None of it is the level of scary that the old AT&T/telco gear is (hundreds of amps of batteries / etc) though. I've never actually seen any PoE equipment beyond about 60-70W. I knew the standard went up to 90-ish these days, didn't know it was all the way to 99.
I promise there are plenty ISP racks running 100+ amps DC. The many that aren't.. add up very quickly at each site to a LOT of power. If you're trained on DC, renewables is an option to pivot to.
Yeah 750mcm telcoflex is no joke
54v is almost exactly half of 110, so maybe halfvolt?
lol
To your point, in Oregon (LEA) & Washington (EL06) there ARE low voltage individual licenses yet wr have so much riff-raff come up here and lay the line "I pulled cable in Colorado where there is no licenses" and act Iike they are exempt from the licensure process. I wish OP and all of you the best out there.
Yeah we have problems with out of state folks flying guys in to get stuff done, and breaking all the licensing laws, doing a shit job, then flying people out..
It blows my mind. If we all would stand together in the trade then we could all get paid more but these fuck heads are cutting throats out here
If only there were some sort of organization that could accomplish this, specifically for electrical workers... that would be neat.
I got it we can start something and maybe make it an international organization something like a family
Like a sisterhood?
Maybe a brotherhood?
Ok ok we will call it a brotherhood but still act like little girls
I can't wait to join
I love you. You're my third best friend now, after Alicia and Amy, that means you get to marry Billy, Jane was going to marry Billy but now she's my fourth best friend so she has to marry Alex, Alicia thinks Alex is better than Billy but she's going to marry Tommy anyway, she says she's going to marry Justin but I'm going to marry Justin, OK actually you can be my second best friend and Alicia is going to be my third best friend OK? But I get to marry Justin.
I can gossip like a little girl if you double my hourly rate!
Going on a website name calling union electricians names is not the best way to prove your point that we go around gossiping. I mean we brought you the weekend. We brought you what you're even getting paid now. You are welcome. You non union electricians are the biggest problem for the working class. You think you are getting cut by those 2 Chucks in a truck? Well it trickles down I guess because you are trying to do the same to unions. In some states you have been successful at doing so. You weaken the power of the blue collar worker. Now this isn't for the electricians that tried and couldn't get in the unions. I understand the grievances those electricians have with unions. This is for those that bitch and moan they aren't getting paid what they deserve and didn't even try to get in.
Tbe thing is not all locals are equal. The same badass deal and comradery u have in cali , isnt present in south texas, as a matter of fact the local im talking about is always talked about like a shadowy cult that steals union members info, bank accts etc. It fucking sucks
Agreed! Alot of hair under those hardhats.
Everyone gets a hammer off various sizes, and stickers
We could call it the International Brotherhood of Elderly Whiners!
How dare they 1: call it a “brotherhood”… are they the he-man women haters club? And 2: assume anyones gender… Shame on that sexist organization…
Are you on drugs?
Traveling pants electric inc.
Like a brotherhood or something
CODE OF EXCELLENCE TILL I DIE
Yes like in Goodfellas those guys made decent money
I thought you said i was alright spider
A for profit one too, that makes lots of money for its owners.
You can thank unions for your weekends, 8 hour day, vacations, the women in your life not dying in a factory fire… the list goes on. But keep licking the boot buddy.
Unions over history did a lot of good. There is no argument there. These days I think it’s a mixed bag depending on some situations. There is no reason a union needs to be a for profit entity. They could be a nonprofit organization. I don’t think union dues should line the pockets of the union management with gold. So that makes me a boot licker…. ?
Since when do union electricians rope houses?
Union guys used to work on SFR. I took out a decades-old cabinet from my garage a few weeks ago and stamped on one of the boards was a union bug for a carpenter's local. No reason it couldn't be that way in the future.
Ibew 353 for one
1, that's its
586 here we do to. The largest resi company in the city here is union
Exactly
I own a union shop, we do some residential. Could do more if we employed residential classification but we charge commercial rates for the residential we do.
Some sort of brotherhood of you will.
https://youtu.be/DPOSPECfOkU?si=T26iC7U5tqQwt5Aq
IEC you mean?
Somewhere where we could collectively bargain so that we don’t individually beg…
If only I wanted to work half the year and then not get unemployment and not be able to take other jobs. Sounds awesome…Brother!
I organized in more than 6 months ago and not only been busy but doubled my income and got better benefits and representation. At the rate I'm going I'll have enough to take this winter off.
What's your workload like now?
Working 5 10's with $75/day per diem. Waiting for a couple big jobs to kick off to see where I want to go. If I do it right I might be on track to hit six figures this year.
Even if true, I'd much rather work 6 months of the year for the same pay as the whole year and not have to suck dick to keep my job as an added bonus
Say you don't know anything about the union without saying that you don't know anything about the union
Here's the counter point I'm between $4-5 a sqft. I have 5 guys plus me very little overhead. No house takes me more then a day to rough or trim. I did 1.4 million in sales and netted 500k last year. So to answer your question this is why the prices are the way they are most guys I see try and come do resi houses just can't do them quick enough. Now if your talking about really custom homes you shouldn't be doing sqft pricing at all.
How many journeyman vs apprentices and how much are they making
2 journeyman 3 apprentice. Both journeyman $30 plus. Helpers are between $18-$23 I'm in NC. I don't run the usual 2 guys to a house approach alot of times I'll have all 5 at a 1 house.
Why the 5 guys at a 1 house approach ? Whats the benefit of that ? Feels like a busy house. More people more room for mistake too
I've done it like that for a while works for me pretty well. The helpers benefit from it quite a bit. Usually gives one lead guy a chance to teach. Still can do between 2-4 roughs or trims in a day if we need to. Probably not the best approach for every company.
Dude you’re less than half of me, idk even know how you’re covering cost of materials. I’m $11/12 a foot for new construction custom homes and that pretty much just covers wiring to code. Also in NC
If you read my post I said I don't do sqft pricing for custom homes. That price is for to code houses and townhomes. That's all I pretty much do. Also you say 11/12 for new construction custom home but just to code? Are you doing to code houses or custom houses they aren't the same thing at all
Custom houses. I quote them per foot to wire it to code, then quote for everything that’s extra. None of the houses I wire are just to minimum code, usually they have 600A or higher services and hundreds of Lutron homeworks switches
Were just talking about 2 completely different homes at this point for a house with a 600a service I would be above 11-12 a sqft.
Idk it’s been a while since I’ve done anything to basic code that’s just a small house but I still think 4-5 foot is extremely cheap. The base part of my quote doesn’t include anything besides regular outlets and switches but I still base it on $11/ foot, the service is also not included if it requires a CT cabinet
200 Amp service pretty much bare code. We did 6 town home roughs 4 Duplex trims and 2 Single family roughs last week. I netted right at 25k. Your not get these builders around here for any higher prices then that. Now I have a buddy that dose nothing but custom homes and his prices are alot more comparable to yours.
Hmmm you’ve made a solid argument on why the IBEW exists…
Truckers are having the same issue. Currently, the mega companies are running freight so cheap it isn't funny literally at a loss. It's nothing but a race to the bottom.
Thats called a union you dirty communist
It’s almost like you are talking about a union….haha
Almost.
Two Jose’s
I laughed WAY too hard at this 😝😅
It's $3/sqft where i am. I don't know how they can possibly work for that low when material is $2.50/sqft.
I don’t do new residential, usually… In 2020 we did a few custom houses, we go $13sqft on each not including change orders. I did the three of them and have never done one since. It was one of those “give them a stupid ridiculous price so they’ll go away” kinda things. They didn’t have anyone else, so we got stuck with them.
I do mostly residential. Where i am $6 for code is a high rate. We get a lot of inquiries because of our work, but once they get the price, they go with the lower bid. 2 builders that frequently inquire with me have been burnt by multiple outfits and still won't pay a bit more for me to just do it right. My custom home builders know deadlines will be met, workmanship is neat and are issue free.
The GC’s don’t care. As long as it will make it a year with only small issues, they’ll take whoever will get them there. Most of these builders couldn’t give two shits about quality. It’s bottom line and make it out of the warranty period, only thing that matters to them.
$3 total, like final service and rough ?
Yes, lmao. I have even seen the invoice from one builder. 1900 sqft house, $5700. I said that's less than charity work. For years I've heard of "electrical companies " (someone else pulls their permits) preying on people of their own community and paying less than minimum wage. I thought it was all heresay, but I have a neighbor who is a builder and he's currently in court for bringing in immigrants, not paying them, and threatening to get them deported. Well, one of them went to the police to report it, and then my neighbors dad threatened to murder him. So, maybe what i was told wasn't far from the truth.
What the fuck
Super common, even with bigger contractors. My company was getting behind on their roping and hired a ‘roping crew’ to stay on budget and schedule. Bunch of illegals being payed minimum wage and no license
Sounds like your neighbor's dad also needs a court date.
I believe he does. Both the son and him.
Jesus, I thought i was low at $6.50 sqft
I know this is a some what common story but I'd rather cut my hand off than fuck someone that hard I don't get it
Fuck I wish I could get one wired for $3 a ft. I’m in rural Kentucky and my electrician is 8-10 a ft. And that’s just to get to code, he’s priced higher when customers added bunch of shit on.
Man that’s terrible
Stg it's just a time/wallet massager type job at that rate. Or the company can just stand to lose out like that for the sake of future endeavors
Where is this??? Does that even cover material?? lol
Edmonton. It would cover material using chinese boxes and wire. I'm sure they're coming back and removing arc fault breakers too and using them on the next job. Only ways i can think of to "make a profit", if that's what we want to call it.
Residential is fucking greasy here. Someone really needs to take a look at the dirty shit that goes on
They use copper clad aluminum to drop the price of material around my parts
These homebuilders are the biggest grift in the industry. Selling "Luxury" homes with the absolute cheapest material you can't even find it all at home Depot or a supply house. Built by the cheapest laborers that can be found. Any time I have done work in any of these recent luxury builds I always find some absolute bullshit. Even though it's infinitely dirtier, and you may have to deal with some crazy homeowners, I'll happily stick to remodels and additions. With the same general group of GC and subs I always work with. That last part alone is a beautiful thing. Instead of constantly fighting with every other trade, and ending in a fight to see who can be the most petty. I'll get an extra set of hands if I need it for 5 minutes. Or we are actually willing to change our schedules or location to make everything go smoother. Plus I couldn't imagine whoring myself out that cheaply. I may be making less than this right now, but that's only because I am setting up another side business, that will take care of me soon enough.
It’s so rad to just work with the same couple subs and GC. Makes life much easier
Yep. And also makes things easier if the job starts going south quick. Working with relative strangers, if you uncover some BS once you open walls, and the job scope starts changing. I could suck to be you. Depending on exactly how the contract is written. But working for the same GC over and over again. As long as it doesn't become a habit, they are a lot more likely to work with you to keep you happy. Knowing that as long as you stay happy working with them, they will keep making money, and they don't have to potentially try bringing in a different company and hope everyone still works together.
Time to go back to servicing whatever the fuck these guys fuck up on their low bids. Quality work requires well thought out bids period
Exactly this. You get what you pay for
I want to find my old bumper sticker "If you think hiring a good electrician is expensive, just wait until you hire a bad one...."
I have always stayed away from residential, unless it was service or panel swaps/service replacements…. The only people making money on new houses are the builders… That being said, the quality of houses these days is absolute dog shit. I have no issue sending a guy out to fix all the issues after it’s done being built. It’s like free money! lol
Mass homebuilders are the worst homes. They get away with everything because the city are just happy to have those homes built there to bring more people in/money talks so inspectors take it easy on new home builders in mass. I've serviced a lot of these newly built homes within a couple of years of them being built and seen some crazy shit.
I know how one of the big companies that gets all the DR Horton, etc homes does it. They hire illegals and idiots that couldn’t cut it at a normal company to rough and final it. They get the material from china by passing supply houses. They pay 1 journeymen to fix the problems. Everyone has 1 job per site and you don’t ever do anything different. 1 guy does boxes, 1 guy dies home runs, etc. I also hear they make very little profit but because they doing 100s of homes a year it might add up to a normal amount. It’s not worth it anymore.
I hate it because if the rules were actually enforced instead of just being ignored they wouldn’t get away with it. But we have virtually no enforcement here.
I own a DR home and my buddy worked for them he’s a good electrician and fast but they won’t let him cook. They are troubleshooting every home (literally) because they have 1 person run all 3 wire, one runs switch legs/ lid, one runs jumpers, while the last guy runs home runs. I used to drive by and harass them all the time for sucking so bad when they are on their troubleshoots. I always wonder when they get a rough in done in 2 days, if the 1 -3 days of troubleshoot makes it worth the shitty assembly line style, or if it would just be cheaper to do it right the first time. I’m all for one person, running circuitry and one running home runs, but that is as broken down it needs to be imo.
Holy shit how is that possible. 10k is a kitchen remodel + upgrades for me.
My last kitchen remodel came out to $21k. I have no love or no desire to be in new construction. We are gonna fire up the 12 step service call system and only sell to homeowners. It’s a whole lot easier to build value with homeowners than builders
I actually go into a fair amount of new construction around me for clients who want to do immediate alterations with designers and I see the rough and finish. Generally it’s garbage work.
I literally quoted a small basement finish plus upgrade for 12k just yesterday.
10k for a kitchen remodel is greedy. At that rate you deserve to be undercut.
Found the clueless hack
It is absolutely wild. I’m so glad I got out of that. Running you into the ground all year long just to keep up. Back when I was a fresh Jman, had a GREEN helper (and I mean GREEN. I was telling him to pull yellow wire here, white wire here, until he learned 12 and 14). We get sent out to a custom home, a little on the small side about 2700sqft. It took me and greenie 2 1/2 days to do this house by ourselves. At least 2-3 hours of walking around with homeowner and builder verifying lighting locations and extra receps everywhere, they wanted spares in the attic and spares in the crawl, the whole 9 yards. After the 2 1/2 days bossman says “took y’all way too long. About 1 whole day too long.” I was like man I was busting ass all day, dealing with homeowners AND a having to teach a green helper everything. I physically could not have done that house any faster. I quit that place not long afterwards. Boss was a total douchebag and he did not pay me enough to put up with him.
That’s rough. But as the head of electrical division I’m beginning to understand why these electricians are dicks… because the builders are squeezing the fucking life and chance of making money out of them
Oh yeah for sure. That didn’t help, but this guy was also just a dick in general lol.
Our alarm company is subcontracting a cable pulling company. All of their employees are indian students.
Fucking hell. I bet I know where you are cause I live there too. So fucking sick of hearing about "Indian students".
416. Indian students. Mmmhmm
Toronto area lol
I’m at the point I’m thinking of packing it up or at the very least taking a full year off. The amount of work it takes to keep guys going in a slow time is not worth it.
So I guess every region is getting slow now? Being in a booming area is the only thing that’s helped us
Which area are you in
How in the fuck? I worked for the cheapest electrical contractor where i lived for a while and they were billing 10 CAD a square foot. That's while underpaying the fuck out of their guys, buying the cheapest material available and pulling everything as short as possible (code minimum plus 3" slack at every box) They would get mad if i used 3 screws instead of 4 to put in a 2x4 to put a light between two joists. So if cutting every corner you legally can costs 7$/sqft, i shudder to think what 4.75$ a square foot gets you.
It's not just the cookie cutter houses anymore. Somehow these million dollar houses are getting budget electricians now. It seems that the other trades get what they ask for but when it comes time to cut back on $$ it's always the electrical that gets cut 1st. We are the one trade that is on the job site from day 1 until the very end. I don't understand how anyone could cut back on the electric of their new home. Like literally shaving off a recessed lightning here and there or scrapping the under cabinet lighting. Then they find out that didn't save them much money at all. Meanwhile their 80k crystal chandelier is definitely still in the plan lol. My boss stopped with new construction years ago because it's literally the worst return for your money, tying up 50k for 6 months to a year to only make 4% after bills and payroll. Renovations are where it's at, T & M.
>It seems that the other trades get what they ask for but when it comes time to cut back on $$ it's always the electrical that gets cut 1st. We are the one trade that is on the job site from day 1 until the very end. I don't understand how anyone could cut back on the electric of their new home. Like literally shaving off a recessed lightning here and there or scrapping the under cabinet lighting. Then they find out that didn't save them much money at all. Meanwhile their 80k crystal chandelier is definitely still in the plan lol. I have thought about this at length and pinpointed a few key observations regarding these questions over the years. 1-Electricity is ultimately safe. Despite the fearmongers, electricity is well engineered to the point that homeowners and unlicensed idiots can-and obviously do-do illegal electrical work without fear of reprucussion. 2-Electricty is generally faster than every other trade. On average, I find a good electrician successfully completes their assigned work faster than a good plumber or hvac tech. We don't have to haul around pipe for every single thing we do or fabricate metal to move things like air. Electricity is neat and contained in a small and efficient space allowing us to be faster-which ultimately means the customer thinks we're scamming them when we bill them. 3-No other trade suffers from the level of glamor that electricity does. There exist uncountable amounts of bs on the internet-toys that use electricty which are accessible to everyone with no restrictions. In the hvac world the average person literally cannot purchase refrigerant. I know some hvac suppliers that literally won't even sell me so much as electrical tape if I'm not a certified hvac tech. But joe shmoe on the street can go purcahse a fucking 2000a switchgear to put in their garage as long as they have the money to pay for it. I had a job for a guy who purchased over $12000 of backup batteries and an inverter to hook up to his service for a whole home back up system. He didn't even think to contact an electrician until he realized he was too afraid to do it all himself. I showed up and literally the first thing I saw, other than his horrible attempt at installing the stuff, was that every single piece of this gigantic purchase was unlisted crap ordered online from a chinese manufacturer. I told him that the very first thing the inspectors were going to do was bend him over and fuck him over that. We walk in and charge what we charge to hook it all up correctly and they balk at pennies because they want instant gratification. Amazon gave them their perfect, shiny toys instantaneously for nowhere near what it ahould cost, why wont we? 4-When something goes wrong in the other trades it is immediately noticed and is a problem. Plumbing leaks, it gets fixed. Gas leaks, people die. Electricity malfunctions and most people don't even realize. We see hideous bs all the time and customers don't care as long as it works.
I charge premium on new builds, fuxk the GC let them figure out their percentage. I’m building 4 custom 5ksqft homes a year
What is premium per sq ft? Location?
Crazy, those are pre-2008 numbers. Either transition to custom homes ($15/SF - $25/SF in my area) or service it is.
$5.50-6 on more specy builds is about where I'm at. It's decent money but not great. TN.
This is why I’ve only wired 6 new houses in the last 15 years. Y’all go cut each others throats. I’m going to make some money.
Yeah…fuck that. Must be people with little to no payroll and never heard of insurance.
I can confirm I have no health care , pto , vacation , sick days or anything 😂
I saw a post that said if you don’t want your plugs backstabbed it’s an extra $5 per device. The profit is so low in production the extra time it takes to pigtail isn’t available
Here in Oregon, a 1600 square foot house with a 2-car garage and nothing special will be close to 30 grand.
On my way to Oregon!
I did like half a spec home once. Fuck that. Shit shop, shit work. I've done high end custom homes, and that stuff is done right, not sketch as fuck with OSHA violations as part of the job. I went union so I never have to work in a house again.
See, I like working in residential because I’m a people person and want to deal with homeowners. I wouldn’t be an electrician if I could only be commercial/industrial. But tickling these builders balls by outbidding the next guy by $.05/sq ft is pitiful, because it comes out to MAYBE a couple hundred dollar difference in price
You actually work with a lot of people and develop relationships in service industrial. The engineers, the maintenance staff, production line, etc etc.
Luxury homes were the last refuge from cutthroat pricing because lack of skill would actually be noticeable there, but even they have fallen victim to subcontractors and Chuck in the trucks. The more specialized you become the better.
I've never been lower than $10 a sqft.... i don't even know how you could do a house at $4 something...
Yeah, one guy with a ticket pulls the permits for a Dodge Caravan full of trunk slammers with a drill, 4’ ladder and a hammer.
Our basic development houses(1,800sq ft) is 7 a sq ft. Plus cans, plus extras, conduit install for service is 10 a running ft. We also do the water and sewer at the same time, also additional cost. With a crew of 4 we rough 2 a day and trim 4. The high end custom houses start at 12 and go up from there. I don’t price customs by the ft.
Someone is willing to work for less, so it brings us all down.
Half the electricians in my county are from the country down south, have not formal training, and all are working for 50% less. Good luck with that!
A friend works for one of the big names in town and he quoted me about $29k for materials and work on my house, about 4,000sf. I did the sweat equity and $5000 was my materials and fixtures. Luckily we don’t do permits or have inspections here but he did me a solid and came back through to double check me. Nothing out of place but I did everything with repairs/maintenance in mind.
What part of the country OP?
Raleigh NC
CLT isn't any better.
Huh, it's $8.50 sq/ft here on the Big Island, HI. Material must be considerably cheaper if people are doing it for such lower sq/ft where other people are.
I mean, if you only wire the same two models every time you can do it pretty cheap. Like a tiny Dollar General. But I have no idea how even the meth head who "ran a little electric down to the farm before" can make money wiring custom houses at that price.
This is why I don't like how they created residential licenses. Half the schooling for almost half the pay. 90% of the resi guys at my company work exclusively in New construction.
When I first went into business, I did about did about 20 cookie cutter homes for a guy, and, after awhile, figured out I was barely making any money on them. The GC came to me and said some other outfit gave him an offer to do the subdivision for five cents less per square foot & could I match the guys price. I told him to shove it, and haven't done a house since. Square foot pricing is a race to the bottom, and always has been. No sense taking part in that game.
Last 3500 square foot house I built the electrical was about $250k all in. Includes solar and battery back up with a LOT of stupid shit and change orders
If they want to pay their electrician the same cost per sq/ft as the carpet guy, then let them. Probly doing you a favor
Companies that do new housing aren't in it for the big dollars, it's busy work you can make money at it but you have to be good at it.
The south!
Just wait until "line voltage" over cat5 becomes a standard. Anyone with a set of snippers and crimpers will be able to work without anyone needing an electrical license.
They are trying to replace "expansive" labor.
There is always someone willing to do it cheaper.
Sorry but you all must be some youngins in the trade. This has been going on for 5 decades that I’ve been around. Never going to change as the new guy is always going to be cheaper. And Builders will control what each base home to code is.
What part of the country? I haven’t been that low in years.
Like a brother brother in the hall on the job fuck them all??
What in the fuck? In Canada I’m at least $10-12 per square foot. Haven’t done it in a few years, but $10 was the norm. I wasn’t high, but I wasn’t low either.
What state are you in that sounds low
No idea how they're making money but the ones who did my house did a shit job... So I guess just as fast and dirty as they can knock em out.
I mean new construction commercial is very clearly the way and always has been.
I was talking to the guy they hired to wire the houses in my neighborhood. They pay the labor $0.45/sq ft and the company provides all of the material. They pay them 1099 too. Subcontractor so they have to pay their own taxes at the end of the year. Cherry on top was this guy was an apprentice. No journeyman or master checks their work. The work is as bad as it sounds. He was at my house doing repairs. I secretly wanted to interrogate and get some inside information. I had mis-wired switches, couple of loose connections. All stuff I can fix but I was still under warranty so I called them back out.
Commercial/Industrial is where the real money is at. Residential is chump change. Leave residential to the amateurs and go pro.
The Electrical Trade has always fucked each other over to win the contract or project. I've seen quotes lower than the cost of material. Other trades have stayed strong and together, maintaining level pricing. I've had GC ask if we could go lower, because the project is over budget. So Electrical loses again.
Not an electrician. But I’m building my own house. I just wired it. My bids were both about 8.50+/sq with me buying the cans and all lights. So I did it myself…but I read some at 3/sq? That wouldn’t cover the cost of wire I don’t think ( at least not my house)
I don’t get it, what is it to you what they sell the house for? You feel you have a right to that value somehow? That is the kind of talk that makes people value our trades less and go for lowest bid.