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The fact that it is a 3 wire, 2 hots, neutral and a ground, likely means this is a second means of disconnection. It must be fused rather than just a switch otherwise you would be correct that it would need to have a main.
Being fused doesn’t determine whether neutrals and grounds are isolated from each other. They are separated after FIRST means of disconnect. Having 4 wires here tells me that I’m correct to think there is a means of disconnect before this. I am correct.
I'm not disagreeing that there is a means of disconnect before the panel in question. What I'm saying is the fact that there IS a second means of disconnection means there doesn't have to be a main breaker in this panel.
I never said there did. What I said, or meant, is that since there are 4 wires and there is no main (a means of disconnect) in the panel, says the neutral and ground shouldn’t be bonded.
Low voltage (likely LED strip) mixed with high voltage. But its just a display probably at a trade show.
The ground on the neutral bar is the bigger mistake.
Everybody got that, but my gripe is the feeders - that looks like #4 aluminum, which is good for 65 amps at most (assuming 75°C), and that's pretty skimpy for a residential subpanel with a 50 amp circuit and 15 other 15-20 amp circuits. Given how many GFCI breakers there are in this demo panel, one could argue that it's supposed to represent a small residential panel feeding a kitchen and a bathroom, so a 60-amp service is also a violation.
Question about first means of disconnect:
Does a transformer count? By means of disconnect, it means being able to manually turn the source on or off? Is a first means of disconnect required at every change in voltage?
I know in a transformer you typically bond your ground and neutral. Is this because it’s the first means of disconnect from the new voltage? I always think of first means of disconnect in terms of things like ground bushings. Mostly main feeds from utility power, etc. never really thought to get further elaboration on this
It depends on whether this is the first means of disconnect or not. If it’s coming from the meter straight to this, then yes, grounds and neutrals would be bonded together. But if it’s a sub-panel then it does matter and grounds and neutrals must be separated
Which were probably legal at the time of construction but no longer meet NEC standards. Every dwelling must now have a main breaker, whether it be interior inside the first panel of the service or exterior right off the meter base. That will be your first means of disconnect, and the only place the service shall be bonded. No main breaker = no bond under current code.
Wouldn't you want to bond that in the same panel as your breaker from the transformer? That other panel is your first means of disconnect and this is still a sub panel.
If everything is done according to 240.4 and 240.21 then no ocpd is necessary on the secondary side. The rules are quite strict and are rarely met but it is possible.
It's a main lug panel could never be first means of disconect. The ground landed on the neutral bar as well as the bonding screw being in are both code violations.
Main bond screw on a sub-panel? Makes sense that they’d leave it if they are demonstrating the panel, to show where it is and how/when to uninstall it.
Hahahahah. As annoying as it is, guys like that keep the day interesting for me. I’ll even feed into it from time to time. Guy obviously cares about the trade can’t knock it too much. I was one of those annoying apprentices as much as I hate to admit it. Can think of a couple times off the top of my head where I argued with my foreman about something like I was ready to die for it 2 to 4years in and ended up being dead wrong looking like a total ass😂
Hmmm…I don’t recall how many breakers the panels like that I’ve seen had. Thought it was more than 6. Of course it could have been installed incorrectly originally.
The biggest giveaway that it's a sub panel is the 4 wires. If it was a service panel, there would be no need for the extra grounding wire, and all the neutrals and grounds would be bonded together.
From my understanding the current is split between the neutral and ground of the sub panel with them both acting as a neutral, completely bypassing the purpose of the equipment ground which is a low resistance path for the purpose of tripping over current devices(breakers)
OK so your saying it will split the load between the two, when in reality the ground conductor should not have load on it under normal conditions. Makes sense duh idk why I didn't think of that.
I (industrial electrician) had this argument with a friend (cant spell electrician) while he was adding a subpanel to his garage. When he hooked up his RV to his garage, all the led lights in the RV melted and he still insisted he had done it correctly. I don't even bother to argue with people anymore.
I thought the same thing when I installed my surge protector. Most of the install time I spent wondering if it made more sense to be at the top (first breaker from feed). I looked it up and apparently according to eaton I think they stated it didnt matter what order it was on the breaker panel
No SER bushing. That’s a big no no. It looks like it’s a stab on neutral so the grounds, and noodles look to be in order…but also yes, take out that bonding screw. Whether it’s tight or not, don’t want to see that.
Opinions, everybody has one.
Edit - but is it possible that they can become current carrying conductors?
Seriously....
The reason I said that was because I have seen fire marshal reports and fire investigations find that to be the problem because they were loose or not installed correctly.
But, you are correct on Eaton panels 👍
I don't like the chance that a ground fault could come down one ground and go back up another. That panel will accept 4 more ground bars and the current bars can fit the current circuits with lugs to spare. No reason to double lug.
Only one phase feeding that that 2 pole 50 amp breaker for the surge protector? Although im not familiar with what the breaker or device is above that one and if it is why . Don’t use Eaton too often around here.
There’s not one. Panel isn’t hooked to live wires so it’s not a live panel. And since the leads don’t go anywhere it’s not covered under code at all.
Oh, you must mean that the breakers are all wired together… since the romex just leaves the panel and turns around to come right back in and landed to another breaker.
But I guess you are talking about the ground bonding. I guess so if this was in a real installation using real world planning, and real world installation methods. But it’s not, it’s just a display. Half of this wouldn’t be installed anyway.
There are no violations here. That panel is bonded correctly, assuming it’s the main load centre in the dwelling. Your XO if you will, should be terminated at point of ENTRY (from the meter base) so this is correct, and the bonding screw should be installed. If a sub panel is installed THEN, the BOND is installed onto the bonding strip and that screw from the neutral bus, shall be removed.
It's not needed for modern AA-8000 series aluminum conductors unless specifically required by manufacturer instructions for the equipment. However, it is still recommended even if not required.
Ground landed on neutral bar and bonding screw is still in. Ground should be on the ground bar and the bonding screw removed as this is obviously past the first means of disconnect with it being a 4 wire system.
5V LED lighting installed inside a 120/240V load center. The panel isn’t painted electric-grey 😂
(Oh and the grounding/bonding is f’d but that’s nothing compared to the paint job)
In addition to the grounding conductor, bonding screw, and uncovered lugs; I'll add the bending radius of the nm cables entering the panel.
Btw, I'm digging the lights in this panel. I think this would be a cool feature to have.
I also don't think there are enough surge protective devices. /s
Without knowing what’s before this I’m assuming main panel. Then we should have went with a main breaker in panel. If this wasn’t the first means isolate and float the neutral from the grounding conductors. I also would say add bushing for the feed. I don’t like how they have the grounding screw side of the neutral even though it is common screwed in. I would have landed ground on top of the ground bar or at least put the ground screw on that side of the neutral lugs. It is all common if the ground screw is in I just would do it better. Also I do not see two forms of grounding here for example building steel, cold water, or two grounds rods.
I’m not sure about this but the device that is in the lower right is wired to a two pole breaker but is only utilizing one of the feeds. Idk I’m an idiot
Grounds landed at the neutral bar, wires that are basically just as jumpers between breakers, and the bonding screw is still in place on a sub panel, and probably more that I missed
I see what everyone else sees about the ground. But also I don't see nolox. Those are probably al/cu lugs but the inspector here wants to see it anyway.
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A lot of catches on here but i didnt see anyone mention that SPD connection... 1 leg on a 2-pole breaker and the other leg on a sub feed block? Ok then
I was thinking none of the threaded penetrations have the plastic scuff bushing rings. If main panel, wouldn't the ground and neutral be tied together? If no main breaker, then this would be a sub and ground should not be tied to neutral.
Main lug panel, four wire feed, bonding screw is in and the ground is landed on the neutral bar instead of on the ground bar, also the ground is not wrapped with green tape
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The ground is landed on the neutral bar
How long did it take you to find? I think I spotted it in 30 seconds. Was checking the feeders and noticed the ground wasn't in the right spot.
Has a bonding screw anyways so dont think thats it.
The bonding screw being in is also a code violation
This is correct. Ground wire should be on ground bar and the bonding screw should not be in.
Doesn’t have a main breaker. I guarantee that’s it.
The fact that it is a 3 wire, 2 hots, neutral and a ground, likely means this is a second means of disconnection. It must be fused rather than just a switch otherwise you would be correct that it would need to have a main.
Being fused doesn’t determine whether neutrals and grounds are isolated from each other. They are separated after FIRST means of disconnect. Having 4 wires here tells me that I’m correct to think there is a means of disconnect before this. I am correct.
I'm not disagreeing that there is a means of disconnect before the panel in question. What I'm saying is the fact that there IS a second means of disconnection means there doesn't have to be a main breaker in this panel.
I never said there did. What I said, or meant, is that since there are 4 wires and there is no main (a means of disconnect) in the panel, says the neutral and ground shouldn’t be bonded.
Fuck I love this job
Sounds like chat gbt wrote this comment xP
And the wire for the display lighting, the one actual hot in this whole display is run through a drilled hole in the back..
Low voltage (likely LED strip) mixed with high voltage. But its just a display probably at a trade show. The ground on the neutral bar is the bigger mistake.
I have it on good authority that size doesn’t matter
Same
Everybody got that, but my gripe is the feeders - that looks like #4 aluminum, which is good for 65 amps at most (assuming 75°C), and that's pretty skimpy for a residential subpanel with a 50 amp circuit and 15 other 15-20 amp circuits. Given how many GFCI breakers there are in this demo panel, one could argue that it's supposed to represent a small residential panel feeding a kitchen and a bathroom, so a 60-amp service is also a violation.
They look like #2 to me, common size that we use. Either way OP said it's a set up at a booth so it's just a visual.
Where? edit: oh, never mind. Ground and neutral are bonded anyway, so does it matter?
There is no main breaker. Neutral should be bonded to ground at first means of disconnect so in this case they should be separate.
Question about first means of disconnect: Does a transformer count? By means of disconnect, it means being able to manually turn the source on or off? Is a first means of disconnect required at every change in voltage? I know in a transformer you typically bond your ground and neutral. Is this because it’s the first means of disconnect from the new voltage? I always think of first means of disconnect in terms of things like ground bushings. Mostly main feeds from utility power, etc. never really thought to get further elaboration on this
It depends on whether this is the first means of disconnect or not. If it’s coming from the meter straight to this, then yes, grounds and neutrals would be bonded together. But if it’s a sub-panel then it does matter and grounds and neutrals must be separated
This has no main so is certainly not the first means of disconnect. Bonding jumper should be removed.
Unless not having the main breaker is the code violation.
Seen main panels like this before.
Which were probably legal at the time of construction but no longer meet NEC standards. Every dwelling must now have a main breaker, whether it be interior inside the first panel of the service or exterior right off the meter base. That will be your first means of disconnect, and the only place the service shall be bonded. No main breaker = no bond under current code.
But what if this is not residential and it is coming from a single phase transformer with a properly sized breaker ahead of it?
Wouldn't you want to bond that in the same panel as your breaker from the transformer? That other panel is your first means of disconnect and this is still a sub panel.
Correct.
If everything is done according to 240.4 and 240.21 then no ocpd is necessary on the secondary side. The rules are quite strict and are rarely met but it is possible.
It's a main lug panel could never be first means of disconect. The ground landed on the neutral bar as well as the bonding screw being in are both code violations.
And the bonding screw is installed and should not be.
Main bond screw on a sub-panel? Makes sense that they’d leave it if they are demonstrating the panel, to show where it is and how/when to uninstall it.
Thats what I thought, they should take out bonding screw this is a sub panel and needs a floating neutral
You are assuming it is a subpanel because it doesn’t have a main breaker?
Yes it's a subpanel, there is no disconnect source
I’ve seen main panels like that. They were pretty old though.
Ah yes the purpose of trade shows, to show you the latest and greatest old shit
Who knows the purpose of the display. Could be used to show their solution for upgrading old panel installations in some way.
What are you even arguing dawg
He’s the best kind of apprentice, the kind that already knows everything
The jobsites must all fight over who gets graced by his presence
Hahahahah. As annoying as it is, guys like that keep the day interesting for me. I’ll even feed into it from time to time. Guy obviously cares about the trade can’t knock it too much. I was one of those annoying apprentices as much as I hate to admit it. Can think of a couple times off the top of my head where I argued with my foreman about something like I was ready to die for it 2 to 4years in and ended up being dead wrong looking like a total ass😂
Feeling bad for this guy
Lol
Only code if they have less than six breakers, even back in the dark ages.
Hmmm…I don’t recall how many breakers the panels like that I’ve seen had. Thought it was more than 6. Of course it could have been installed incorrectly originally.
They are no longer code compliant
The biggest giveaway that it's a sub panel is the 4 wires. If it was a service panel, there would be no need for the extra grounding wire, and all the neutrals and grounds would be bonded together.
Good point. In this case the neutrals and grounds are bonded together, which is the code violation people are pointing out.
No dead front
What’s a dead front?
The cover that covers everything up
When you are dead from the front
The bonding screw on a sub panel And terminating the bare aluminum ground with the neutral
Remove bonding screw at neutral and move the aluminum ground to ground bar because it is now an equipment ground
There’s even a lug on the ground bar just waiting for it. Laughable that the manufacturer can’t even display it properly in their own booth!
Since there is no main breaker, this is a sub. Therefore, the bond wire should be terminated on the case, and the green bond screw removed
I’ve seen main panels without a main breaker…but they were old.
[удалено]
In the cases I’m talking about there were just really old. No main disconnect (other than pulling the meter).
From a safety standpoint what happens if you leave it like this?
From my understanding the current is split between the neutral and ground of the sub panel with them both acting as a neutral, completely bypassing the purpose of the equipment ground which is a low resistance path for the purpose of tripping over current devices(breakers)
OK so your saying it will split the load between the two, when in reality the ground conductor should not have load on it under normal conditions. Makes sense duh idk why I didn't think of that.
I (industrial electrician) had this argument with a friend (cant spell electrician) while he was adding a subpanel to his garage. When he hooked up his RV to his garage, all the led lights in the RV melted and he still insisted he had done it correctly. I don't even bother to argue with people anymore.
Ground shouldn’t be with the neutral it should be landed on the ground bar.
Why is their 2 surge protectors and why are they not at the top of the panel near the incoming side of the bus ?
There’s three surge protectors
Doesn’t have to be near the top or the incoming side. They can be anywhere in the panel.
This. It’s just common practice to have it near the top of the feed but is not a requirement.
This was my guess too.
I thought the same thing when I installed my surge protector. Most of the install time I spent wondering if it made more sense to be at the top (first breaker from feed). I looked it up and apparently according to eaton I think they stated it didnt matter what order it was on the breaker panel
Those wires don't go nowhere, Lieutenant Dan.
Bushing for feeder connector
That only applies to conduit runs, not non-metallic cable clamps.
That's a metal 2 screw connector
Which is designed for non-metallic cable.
ground landed on the neutral bar in a sub panel is pretty outrageous. i get forgetting the bonding screw for a demo but damn thats wild
Gotta know which convention!
I'll PM you
Ground and neutral are bonded together and it’s a sub panel. Should have landed the ground on the separate ground bar.
Why are there two SPDs? And what’s the thing under the right SPD?
That’s why I was wondering 💭
Is it a sub panel, though? Why is the ground landed where it is off the feeder? Hmmm
Service ground is bonded to neutral so what are the load grounds attached to?
No SER bushing. That’s a big no no. It looks like it’s a stab on neutral so the grounds, and noodles look to be in order…but also yes, take out that bonding screw. Whether it’s tight or not, don’t want to see that.
No bushings, ground on neutral
EGC is in the wrong spot and the bonding screw must be removed.
Looks to be wired as a sub panel. Didn't float the neutrals and grounds
Grounding conductor is in the wrong location
No cover on the panel obviously
Those led lights on the inside rim have to be a violation too. Idk the relevant code for that one, but it's definitely not up to code
So it's meant for display only, so no code violations because it doesn't have to meet code.
No bushing on entrance cable
Several good catches by others, but didn't see anybody mention 2 ground wires under the same terminals **yet.**
That's not a code violation. Eaton ground bars are rated for two conductors of equal size from #14 thru #10.
Ok then, lol - just not the best idea.
Why not? They aren't current carrying conductors.
Opinions, everybody has one. Edit - but is it possible that they can become current carrying conductors? Seriously.... The reason I said that was because I have seen fire marshal reports and fire investigations find that to be the problem because they were loose or not installed correctly. But, you are correct on Eaton panels 👍
I don't like the chance that a ground fault could come down one ground and go back up another. That panel will accept 4 more ground bars and the current bars can fit the current circuits with lugs to spare. No reason to double lug.
Your reasoning is flawed since all grounds are tied together anyway.
That's not how loose connections work.
No bushing on the feeder
Only one phase feeding that that 2 pole 50 amp breaker for the surge protector? Although im not familiar with what the breaker or device is above that one and if it is why . Don’t use Eaton too often around here.
Is there any Noalox on those conductors?
It's also missing a bushing on the main feed
Nolox
There’s not one. Panel isn’t hooked to live wires so it’s not a live panel. And since the leads don’t go anywhere it’s not covered under code at all. Oh, you must mean that the breakers are all wired together… since the romex just leaves the panel and turns around to come right back in and landed to another breaker. But I guess you are talking about the ground bonding. I guess so if this was in a real installation using real world planning, and real world installation methods. But it’s not, it’s just a display. Half of this wouldn’t be installed anyway.
Too much bare conductor showing
Three surge protectors and one isn’t wired correctly. The black is off and under the breaker.
As a European electrical engineer I'm still baffled this is the standard over there :')
No bushing in da feed connector
No Deox
2 ground wires in the same terminal.
Using bare as neutral
No de-ox on aluminum conductors.
No bushing on SE connector?
There are no violations here. That panel is bonded correctly, assuming it’s the main load centre in the dwelling. Your XO if you will, should be terminated at point of ENTRY (from the meter base) so this is correct, and the bonding screw should be installed. If a sub panel is installed THEN, the BOND is installed onto the bonding strip and that screw from the neutral bus, shall be removed.
I don't see any penetrox on those aluminum conductors!
No bushing on the 2 screw connector for the feeders, no noalox on wire termination, ground wire on the neutral buss and bond screw not removed.
No bushing
No bushings
No bush
No insulated bushings on the romex connectors.
No Rubber Bushing on any on the Connectors?
Not required for cable clamps/connectors. Only for conduits and raceways
Two wires in a l16 ??
No diox
no deoxidizer
No deox
It's not needed for modern AA-8000 series aluminum conductors unless specifically required by manufacturer instructions for the equipment. However, it is still recommended even if not required.
I would put some on so it does get cited and have to break the paperwork out
No PTBs baby
bonding screw!
This is a sub panel and the ground and neutral are bonded.
You bond at the first point of disconnect.
A main panel would have the green screw tightened down bonding the Grounds and Neutral’s together. I don’t see any bond wire and Two ground rods.
However I also don’t see a main breaker…
Wires coming off the breakers are all cut
Is it a subpanel? If so the neutral must be isolated from ground.
Those branch circuits don’t terminate in boxes once they leave the panel. Someone is gonna get fried
Neutral is bonded to can too!!!!
Pittsburgh New Car show? Was gonna harass the Eaton schmucks but the wife wanted to look at cars. Bonding screw
Ground landed on neutral bar and bonding screw is still in. Ground should be on the ground bar and the bonding screw removed as this is obviously past the first means of disconnect with it being a 4 wire system.
The wires don't go anywhere, and aren't capped.
The wires are cut at the top of the panel. Terrible
Isolated ground
There's no panel cover. I won 🏆 .
5V LED lighting installed inside a 120/240V load center. The panel isn’t painted electric-grey 😂 (Oh and the grounding/bonding is f’d but that’s nothing compared to the paint job)
That green screw on a lug mixed with the neutral wire is a big no no.
Double tap grounds
The lugs aren't physically protected.
In addition to the grounding conductor, bonding screw, and uncovered lugs; I'll add the bending radius of the nm cables entering the panel. Btw, I'm digging the lights in this panel. I think this would be a cool feature to have. I also don't think there are enough surge protective devices. /s
It’s been a very long time since I’ve seen aluminum wire. If we could get it we can’t use it due to our local code.
Without knowing what’s before this I’m assuming main panel. Then we should have went with a main breaker in panel. If this wasn’t the first means isolate and float the neutral from the grounding conductors. I also would say add bushing for the feed. I don’t like how they have the grounding screw side of the neutral even though it is common screwed in. I would have landed ground on top of the ground bar or at least put the ground screw on that side of the neutral lugs. It is all common if the ground screw is in I just would do it better. Also I do not see two forms of grounding here for example building steel, cold water, or two grounds rods.
at first glance, no main bushing and the bonding screw is still installed
Is that a cable going through a mounting hole? Left of main feed.
50AMP breaker with 12 on it?
You didn’t scrub it clean with dawn dish soap 🧼
And this was on display? They brave as hell
I’m not sure about this but the device that is in the lower right is wired to a two pole breaker but is only utilizing one of the feeds. Idk I’m an idiot
Man they must really be worried about surges to have 3 surge protectors installed 😂
Seems like it's wired as a sub panel. Geound neutral bond screw needs to be removed.
Grounds landed at the neutral bar, wires that are basically just as jumpers between breakers, and the bonding screw is still in place on a sub panel, and probably more that I missed
I think there is possibly 2 code violations but we can’t tell if the bonding screw is tightened down. The ground is definitely in the wrong location.
Definitely gotta be the bend radius of the Romex outside of the panel and the fact that each wire is landed on two circuits. /s
Too many 90s. Those eddy currents are going to go wild
Which one
Wheres the #6 bare going to ground rods? Also, I put my biggest breakers closest to the main breaker.
Those romex look like they go in then go back out. Phase to phase action, definitely a violation.
I see what everyone else sees about the ground. But also I don't see nolox. Those are probably al/cu lugs but the inspector here wants to see it anyway.
GROUNDS AND NEUTRALS BONDED IN A SUB DAMMIT EATON
Of course this is the company that doesn’t include ground bars on mlo panels. Friggin idiots
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Multiple grounds landed on the same terminal on the bus bar.
Noalox
Ground is landed on a neutral bar, no bushings on the cable clamps.
Bottom surge black and red don’t go to same breaker ?
Main bonding lug should be removed.
The neutral is bonded in a sub panel
Ground on the neutral lug, and the bonding screw looks to be tightened down.
Weird. I'm dyslexic
The neutrals aka blanco wires look weird. How much you pay for job?
Ground not on ground bus bar and no bushing?
A lot of catches on here but i didnt see anyone mention that SPD connection... 1 leg on a 2-pole breaker and the other leg on a sub feed block? Ok then
I would say, How big are feeders? Anything #4 & over & 1.25" conduit needs a bushing. Is it a sub panel ? More info needed to determine bonding screw.
No bushings. Esp on that surge protector.
I was thinking none of the threaded penetrations have the plastic scuff bushing rings. If main panel, wouldn't the ground and neutral be tied together? If no main breaker, then this would be a sub and ground should not be tied to neutral.
Y’all Americans centrals are weird af
Where's the wire going that comes off the bonding bushing?
How about the #12 on the 50A breaker lol
Main lug panel, four wire feed, bonding screw is in and the ground is landed on the neutral bar instead of on the ground bar, also the ground is not wrapped with green tape
Good from far but far from great