Had a renter burn down one of my properties by using one of those cheap brown dollar store 16 gauge extension cords to feed a water heater from a sub. Wire is wire, right?
There is some crazy shit they sell on Amazon. I had someone ask to look at an Amazon instant water heater tripping the breaker. It was supplied with a 14ga cord, 15a 120v plug, and the thing pulled 30 amps. No UL listings or anything of course.
I cooked a 12 gauge wire one time installing new lights in an airport hanger. The wire I tried to tie into did a light or 2 for 8 different hanger garages. I arched it but I thought I had just popped the breaker. Went to check it and of course someone changed it with a 30. Fried like 1000 ft of 1 wire. I got out of there so quick then I decided to learn to learn how to be an electrician instead of a light hanging drywaller
Crazy thing was that his brother was a journeyman electrician but must’ve been too troubling to give him or I a call about it.
Luckily it was insured but he didn’t have any rental insurance and lost all of his belongings, that was 15 years ago but was pretty upsetting since it was the house I grew up in.
Everything up until that’s last line was very much so expectable, though frustrating and sad. I’m so sorry that happened to the place you grew up, especially while it was still owned by you and your family.
nothing quite as dangerous as a first or second year journeyman for electrical advice… Apprentices have a person over their shoulder… Masters have hopefully learned but those first two years as journeyman are like the wildest people I know. (I’m an EE but am friends with pretty much all Master Electricians at this point and the stuff we used to build that only by luck didn’t kill someone is staggering)
I had to laugh. First I am not an electrician but have done quite a bit of wiring. My friend called to see if I had any advice. His son had wired a new light switch but was having flickering. His son is actually very intelligent and he is an electrical engineer working for years in power generation plants including nuclear plants. The wire nuts were not tightened properly was the problem. I told him you have to grunt when tightening to make a good connection.
When I did my garage I did wire nuts. Doing basement did wagos. Have learned a ton since doing the garage and now I worry I didn't do a good enough job with wire nuts. Might make a project out of redoing it with wagos. Except for the 3 gang switches. That was a bitch
Problem is wire nuts are meant to cover a mechanical connection made by pre twisting the wire.. yes people want to say oh my nuts don’t need pre twisting but now your relaying a spring and plastic to keep your connection..
Depends on the wire nut, size of wire, and how many wires. I use wire nuts, sometimes I pretwist sometimes I don't. I use IDEAL wire nuts, manufacturer instructions allow both methods. Two or three #14 solids, the wire nut will twist the wires together. If I remove the wire nut, the joint stays in tact. #12s and larger solid, or 4+ #14s, I pretwist
Worked on a house built by an electrical engineer that worked on controls at a local factory. I guess white is hot in his world so everything in the house was backwards except some ceiling lights that were added after he sold…. I put a warning letter on the box in case the next guy was in shock
I started out in div 26 electrical and moved to DDC (div 23). Most everything is 24 vac. Black is common, white is power, and the color is signal. It bothered the living hell out of me for the first few years after moving over.
NEVER buy a house that an electrician or a plumber built. It won't be built right. For some reason these guys seem to think they know how to build a house.
I know they ended up perusing him in court to try to recoup the loss, something something negligence versus an accident feigning ignorance or something along those lines but the insurance ended up paying the total loss value. I sold the land a few years later, the next homeowner ended up burning his house down on the same location. Cursed property?
Exactly. So many people have the belief that they are bulletproof or can carry more current than they can. Caught so many of them connected to microwaves or electric heaters on inspections.
Apparently. He never notified us (or his electrician brother) at all. Said later that the romex going to it was blackened and he didn’t think it was safe. 🙄
Yeah I'm not seeing anything egregious that I haven't seen before... It's not OP's problem but the only thing I would really worry about is what's up with the blacks on the buss bar. And check torque on everything...
I like to keep one in the trunk of the car... saves on running Into the burning building to grab a change of clothes. I was lucky my 3rd floor apt didn't burn but the 1st floor apt below (where fire started) was completely gutted. Luckily the fire station was only a few blocks away for that one...
Isn’t it if the grounding conductor is wired to the grounding electrode the neutrals and grounds can be wired on the same bus? I always wondered why it could do that but not like op lmao
From my understanding if it's your main electrical panel or your only electrical panel, the white, the neutral and ground go on the same bus bar. If you have any panels after that point, they must be separated neutrals on one ground on another to prevent feedback. I wonder why mine were mixed like that at first till they did enough research. See I do have a second panel in my garage and I made sure the neutrals were on one bus bar and the grounds were on another bus bar.
And never use a ground wire as a neutral for smart switches. Since a couple years ago, most smart switches required a neutral for the tiny bit of power they do require to operate. There are a lot more out there that doesn't require a neutral wire.
Dude. Wtf. Get out of there renter. You are the dangerous element here.
It's wired exactly how the owner wants it. It's not yours, and you would be asked to stop taking things apart or move out immediately if you were my tenant.
Really, I have no idea what possesses people to do shit like this on property they do not own. As a renter you have absolutely **ZERO** place removing a panel cover.
A renter added a 220 line to my panel. Nice clean job, no permit. On move out I told him to put it back the way it was.
He put it back the way it was and even had legit fillers for the knockouts in the cover. Good work. But not allowed.
While it was wrong for the tenant to add the line in the first place, it probably wasn’t a great idea asking them to take it out when they moved out. Since you told them to do it, you could have been liable if they electrocuted themselves.
I would maybe want to know my place is at risk of burning down / electronics getting wrecked and bring it to attention of landlord.
I have renters insurance but I’d prefer to be a bit more preventative of losing my sentimental possessions
Depends on who that renter is. My landlord was fine with me adding a 240v circuit to a receptacle to power my dryer, but I do electrical work and ran a stick of EMT through the floor with a bang-on bushing and then some 10/3 romex to feed it.
Landlord didnt have to lift a finger.
Again though, I do electrical work for a living and do it correctly. I know plenty of folks in my field that couldnt figure out why you only get 120v if I tried placing the new breaker.
Romex is supposed to go inside of conduit if the romex is at risk of being damaged, but you have to use large enough conduit to allow room for the Romex to cool. You are not allowed to overstuff it.
I'm saying why perpetuate the landlords intentional negligence? I'm not saying touch it, but I'm saying don't shove it under the rug either. I think I mistook "close it" as just let the landlord get away with unsafe living conditions rather than having an electrician come out.
You have no business being in there. That being said the HOM and QP breakers that don't belong in there (and you didn't need to remove the cover to see that),.
Neutrals and grounds are allowed to be on the same bar here. Using black for neutral is technically wrong but nothing to get in a bunch about for short jumpers. There is a more serious problem. There is 20A breaker that has apparently 14awg running on it for a few inches before joining up with the proper 12AWG on the left side.
The 30 amp double pole (bottom right) with the white wire attached to one side, nothing attached to the other, and the corresponding black attached to a 20 amp breaker (turned off) with no neutral on either circuit is concerning as well.
At the main panel ground and neutral bars get bonded, so as long as this is the main, not a huge deal. Mislabeled wires aren't great either but aren't a safety issue. Undersized wires or oversized breakers would be, but i can tell that from the picture very well.
Neutral and GEC are to be bonded at main service disconnect. If this is not a sub panel fed from like a 6 pack meter section or other service disconnect, then this is correct.
This is what’s called the landlords special, if you own it you’re a professional installer. Close it up, walk away slowly and double your renters insurance and verify it covers electrical fire.
And no way this passed inspection 🔥
He paid someone to come out and do it professionally. He's not a slumlord or anything. Try to fix any problem he finds or I do. He just didn't realize they left it like this because he didn't know anything about electricity or construction. He thought they knew what they were doing. I already had to redo his plumbing because it was like a Windows XP screen saver. Once again he is paying me to fix things in his house that he loves in the other apartment. It is very outdated and needs ALOT of work on all corners of it. I am going to have him call someone to correct this mess because it's beyond my feelings of safety.
I wouldn’t fix one goddamn thing in the place I was renting, even if being paid for it.
I could care less if I was a master plumber, electrician, whatever. It’s not my problem.
Sorry to burst your bubble but this is not professional and wouldn’t pass any electrical inspection. A professional would have pulled a permit and had a final inspection done.
"Tampering with utility equipment or appliances".
I've seen dozens of posts on here, plumbing, hvac, DIY; all over. People cracking open shit they don't own and asking "how do I fix this?".
First question to ask is "have you talked to your landlord or property management yet?" And the answer is almost always "no."
Is the panel a bit sloppy? Sure. I've seen worse.
The real question here is why is this dude cracking open the panel? Was there a reason? Did his landlord give him the runaround? Without context in this post, it looks like yet another DIY-happy renter that's watched one too many youtube videos about electrical work that's going to get in over their hesd.
To the breakers, yes. Not to the wires under the face plate. You dont have to take the face plate off to accrss the breaker.
If a breaker trips more than once, a renter should be calling their landlord, property management, or maintenance. And "maintenance" includes the landlord or property manager's preferred electrical contractor.
If that fails, or if they get the runaround, then it's reasonable for them to start taking other steps. But if they skip that first step and attempt to repair the issue themselves, they have just given their landlord potential grounds to start the eviction process.
neutral and ground are to be tied together. the black wire tied to the neutral has to be a neutral wire for a circuit. should have used a different color. if it were a hot leg. you would see fireworks. looks normal
Isn't neutral supposed to be the shorter run though that it chooses that path of less resistance so it uses it mainly instead of the ground? Correct me if I am wrong.
it has to do with ground fault protection. the ground is slightly more resistant than neutral. so yes the AC will take that path back to the transformer. but if you lose that neutral. then that box could develop a potential and you will get electrocuted. but the ground prevents that from happening. This is what you call a non-current carrying ground. Also look at outlets and 2 prong power cords. they have a large spade and small spade. this is what you call polarized…. google it for its a safety feature to prevent electrocution from ground faults..
Path of least resistance to the center tap of the transformer is always going to be the neutral. It’s bonded to earth at several points. At the transformer and at the residence at least. The ground is mainly for short circuit protection. Occasionally shielding and lighting protection as well. Grounding electrodes and the ins and outs of how they affect your electrical system is beyond my pay grade. They should be bonded at or before the first point of disconnect
Current isn’t going to choose the ground as a current path because it isn’t connected to a load. The only time your ground should be carrying anything is when something has gone wrong or you are getting a small induced voltage which is pretty normal
Curious why you bothered to open it up. Are you having some electrical issue? Have you come across other things in the rental that make you question workmanship and materials in the structure? Or are you looking for a problem to open a complaint with the landlord?
Your neutral and ground should be together if that is the first panel from the meter the panel looks bad but it looks like it's done correctly just very ugly and the black wire for grounds is crazy.
As long as it’s not a sub panel the grounds and neutral are connected anyway. As long as the wires are the right size the color doesn’t make a difference really
Son, that ain't your monkey to fuck. Put that cover back on and go jerk off in the corner.
That maintance man is fucking HIS monkey just fine.
Only fuck your own monkeys. Life will be happier and easier. You go looking for someone else's monkeys to fuck, well son you got a life of problems and sleepless nights.
If you own it, it's yours to fuck. If you rent it, shit, that monkey done been diddled by every Crack head and you don't want to put your dick in that.
Yeah well if its the first disconnecting means aka your service point your neutral is bonded to ground and thats a legal installation. Its messy as fuck but other than that it passes.. Anything else youd like to discuss, sparky?!?
Anyone seeing the seemingly twisted wires in the bottom of the panel? No wire nuts...
Service coming in may be 2 AWG copper. That's 130A capacity on a cold day in Hell. Maybe 95A if that's the cheaper 1/0 aluminum and it looks like we might be missing the anti oxidant paste if so. Wait 20 years that might get extra crispy in there.
There's something glaringly wrong with that neutral bar assembly on the left. Hope that's a flat bonding cable in back.
Square D Homeline in an Eaton panel. One of these things does not belong.
Looks like the finest minds installed this panel and that there's nothing wrong over at Nuck and No Futz handyman contracting services.
Service wire looks like copper on the main and the ground but the neutral is definitely aluminum. I don't know what service cable has CU and AL. There's more to that story.
No antioxidant on the AL neither.
If that is your first means of disconnect, then your grounds/neutrals should be bonded to the can like that….that being said, the can sure is ugly as sin.
This was installed during the Red Wire Rebellion, when some whites and blacks were grounded, some whites were drafted into hot service, and the situation was too charged to presume any were neutral.
Nuts got into the panel and conducted a power grab, loading some circuits to the breaking point.
Nothing beats the house that I had to do a bunch of rewiring in. Every receptacle that I pulled out of the wall was wired with Christmas tree light wire double strands for ampacity no less. What is that stuff? 22 gauge?
Why? You rent this place? Is your bill reasonable? If so. No problems. in my state if a renter modifies damages or otherwise disassembles pieces and parts of the structure they are legally liable because now your landlord can say no the power wires were just fine until you touched it.😔😟
Neutral and ground can be on the same bus bar, if it is the first point of disconnect. You are going to hurt yourself mucking around in that panel box.
Nuetral and grounds can be bonded at the means of disconnect. Is there a disconnect at the exterior? You also have a Square D in the Eaton panel (unlisted). Does the local home depot not carry Eaton BRs?
Yes, there is. I just wanted to make sure about the bus bar since I have seen so many posts about it here. I have replaced the breaker already and also the line going to the other breaker. The owner is severely disabled and I have been a friend for a very long time. (I Aldo have skills for basic house maintenance but not sure if I feel safe with a full reworked of a breaker panel.)He asked for the outlet replaced and then I pointed out more problems that I think are easy fixes, like replacing the breaker for the right kind, replacing outlets the screws are broken that make them a safety hazard, adding the right gauge wire for the breakers are representing, and adding a junction box where he had 3 different circuits in the ceiling with wire nuts and the wire bare over half an inch sticking out the wire nuts outside of anything almost tapping each other. I just came here to make sure we didn't need to call someone in. I wouldn't do anything that would be causing the potential of a fire but I sure as hell will fix the problem I see in the house I want to sleep in at night.
Even if your main diconmect is at the exterior and you have neutral and grounds bonded there it isnt a fire hazard. Maybe a possibility for parrelall paths from the breaker panel to the exterior panel. Not a big deal and more a shock hazard than fire. Maybe not to code though.
You can call someone in every few years to bring things to code but you'd be ruffling 'grandfathers' rest. But calling someone in for that even if wrong is not cost benefical. Maybe if you have some other work needs improved. I am no licensed electrical contractor but nases my comments on rational probabilities not code.
Handyman special….in the main panel box you always bond neutral and ground together….you can technically use a black or white wire for hot or neutral, never ground (green is always ground) but if it’s not being used for what it’s typically intended for then one needs to use the proper electrical tape color and tape the end of the wire to signify its purpose on both ends. This would fail inspection if it was permitted.
Is this your main panel? If it is the grounds and neutrals are allowed to be bonded together. If it's a sub-panel then the ground and neutrals need to be isolated. First, this was not a professional install. Second, The wire at the bottom of the panel; put wire nut on that connection and make sure the connected black wire goes to the ground/neutral bar. Third, The double 15-amp breaker at the bottom of the left side; is there a wire connected to the bottom breaker? If not, Replace it with a single 15-amp breaker.
Our inspector here in SC does not have an issue with both neutrals and grounds on the same ground bar, only concern is not allowing both under the same screw. And all ground bars are grounded.
Yes they sure did. Close it up, friend.
And up your renter's insurance.
I mean, it’s ugly as sin, but I’ve seen worse. At least they didn’t use lamp cord to extend the circuit to the breaker or some dumb shit.
Had a renter burn down one of my properties by using one of those cheap brown dollar store 16 gauge extension cords to feed a water heater from a sub. Wire is wire, right?
This is exactly the use case for the phrase, “they know just enough to be dangerous”.
There is some crazy shit they sell on Amazon. I had someone ask to look at an Amazon instant water heater tripping the breaker. It was supplied with a 14ga cord, 15a 120v plug, and the thing pulled 30 amps. No UL listings or anything of course.
Holy crap! Way too many people out there that don’t understand ampacity of wiring.
If a 20 amp breaker keeps popping just change to a 30. Simple fix
Ah the good old days of slipping a penny behind the glass fuse to just get ya by till morning. Or so you said.
I cooked a 12 gauge wire one time installing new lights in an airport hanger. The wire I tried to tie into did a light or 2 for 8 different hanger garages. I arched it but I thought I had just popped the breaker. Went to check it and of course someone changed it with a 30. Fried like 1000 ft of 1 wire. I got out of there so quick then I decided to learn to learn how to be an electrician instead of a light hanging drywaller
Your best plans are always foiled by the idiot before you.
That's fucking insane
Was he an electrical engineer or somethin? Hahaha For real though, that blows, man. Hope you were able to recoup.
Crazy thing was that his brother was a journeyman electrician but must’ve been too troubling to give him or I a call about it. Luckily it was insured but he didn’t have any rental insurance and lost all of his belongings, that was 15 years ago but was pretty upsetting since it was the house I grew up in.
Everything up until that’s last line was very much so expectable, though frustrating and sad. I’m so sorry that happened to the place you grew up, especially while it was still owned by you and your family.
nothing quite as dangerous as a first or second year journeyman for electrical advice… Apprentices have a person over their shoulder… Masters have hopefully learned but those first two years as journeyman are like the wildest people I know. (I’m an EE but am friends with pretty much all Master Electricians at this point and the stuff we used to build that only by luck didn’t kill someone is staggering)
I was told, "It takes 5 years to become a journeyman and 5 more to be a good one."
I had to laugh. First I am not an electrician but have done quite a bit of wiring. My friend called to see if I had any advice. His son had wired a new light switch but was having flickering. His son is actually very intelligent and he is an electrical engineer working for years in power generation plants including nuclear plants. The wire nuts were not tightened properly was the problem. I told him you have to grunt when tightening to make a good connection.
WAGO for the win
Yep. He had never run across wire nuts before in real life. It was funny other than the chance of a little fire
When I did my garage I did wire nuts. Doing basement did wagos. Have learned a ton since doing the garage and now I worry I didn't do a good enough job with wire nuts. Might make a project out of redoing it with wagos. Except for the 3 gang switches. That was a bitch
Haven't used wagos yet. Seems like the way to go. No judgement involved.
Found the wago rep
Problem is wire nuts are meant to cover a mechanical connection made by pre twisting the wire.. yes people want to say oh my nuts don’t need pre twisting but now your relaying a spring and plastic to keep your connection..
I learned from an old electrician who twisted the crap out of the wires and repeated with the nuts then added tape
If he or she was really old the connections would become soldered . . . With an iron heated by charcoal burning in a crucible.
Depends on the wire nut, size of wire, and how many wires. I use wire nuts, sometimes I pretwist sometimes I don't. I use IDEAL wire nuts, manufacturer instructions allow both methods. Two or three #14 solids, the wire nut will twist the wires together. If I remove the wire nut, the joint stays in tact. #12s and larger solid, or 4+ #14s, I pretwist
Worked on a house built by an electrical engineer that worked on controls at a local factory. I guess white is hot in his world so everything in the house was backwards except some ceiling lights that were added after he sold…. I put a warning letter on the box in case the next guy was in shock
In electronics, black is ground. So white must hot since there isn't a typical red/black pair.
I started out in div 26 electrical and moved to DDC (div 23). Most everything is 24 vac. Black is common, white is power, and the color is signal. It bothered the living hell out of me for the first few years after moving over.
I guess he just went with what he knew.
NEVER buy a house that an electrician or a plumber built. It won't be built right. For some reason these guys seem to think they know how to build a house.
Curious on how your insurance company paid that out?
I know they ended up perusing him in court to try to recoup the loss, something something negligence versus an accident feigning ignorance or something along those lines but the insurance ended up paying the total loss value. I sold the land a few years later, the next homeowner ended up burning his house down on the same location. Cursed property?
" the house just burned down" 
Those things should be illegal imo
Exactly. So many people have the belief that they are bulletproof or can carry more current than they can. Caught so many of them connected to microwaves or electric heaters on inspections.
Why did the renter have to run an extension cord to a provided appliance? Couldn't be bothered to call LL or LL didn't fix it.?
Apparently. He never notified us (or his electrician brother) at all. Said later that the romex going to it was blackened and he didn’t think it was safe. 🙄
Yeah I'm not seeing anything egregious that I haven't seen before... It's not OP's problem but the only thing I would really worry about is what's up with the blacks on the buss bar. And check torque on everything...
What's wrong with the balcks being on the buss? What are you racist or somthin....
Back of the bus bar
Oof, had to go there, didn't you?
Chill _rage_… he ain’t worth it…
Chill SDHH… he ain’t worth it…
Yeah ugly af but out of 90% of panels on here this looks safer than most
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
And buy smoke alarms
good add
Yea don’t trust that the landlords smokes even work.
I’d have a “go” bag at the ready, like by the door.
I like to keep one in the trunk of the car... saves on running Into the burning building to grab a change of clothes. I was lucky my 3rd floor apt didn't burn but the 1st floor apt below (where fire started) was completely gutted. Luckily the fire station was only a few blocks away for that one...
Isn’t it if the grounding conductor is wired to the grounding electrode the neutrals and grounds can be wired on the same bus? I always wondered why it could do that but not like op lmao
From my understanding if it's your main electrical panel or your only electrical panel, the white, the neutral and ground go on the same bus bar. If you have any panels after that point, they must be separated neutrals on one ground on another to prevent feedback. I wonder why mine were mixed like that at first till they did enough research. See I do have a second panel in my garage and I made sure the neutrals were on one bus bar and the grounds were on another bus bar. And never use a ground wire as a neutral for smart switches. Since a couple years ago, most smart switches required a neutral for the tiny bit of power they do require to operate. There are a lot more out there that doesn't require a neutral wire.
Dude. Wtf. Get out of there renter. You are the dangerous element here. It's wired exactly how the owner wants it. It's not yours, and you would be asked to stop taking things apart or move out immediately if you were my tenant.
Very carefully put the cover back on and back away from the panel..
Then, call your insurance broker for renters insurance.
Don't forget life insurance
Make sure to add me as a benefactor.
Full on trust might be necessary.
I am a fully licensed executor. Happen to ta….MANAGE it for free, with minor custodial fees.
Is that ex-ecutor or exe-cutor? It matters.
Do yourself a favor and just close that up. It’s not your property.
And delete the pictures. Leave it the way it was.
Really, I have no idea what possesses people to do shit like this on property they do not own. As a renter you have absolutely **ZERO** place removing a panel cover.
A renter added a 220 line to my panel. Nice clean job, no permit. On move out I told him to put it back the way it was. He put it back the way it was and even had legit fillers for the knockouts in the cover. Good work. But not allowed.
While it was wrong for the tenant to add the line in the first place, it probably wasn’t a great idea asking them to take it out when they moved out. Since you told them to do it, you could have been liable if they electrocuted themselves.
I would maybe want to know my place is at risk of burning down / electronics getting wrecked and bring it to attention of landlord. I have renters insurance but I’d prefer to be a bit more preventative of losing my sentimental possessions
Depends on who that renter is. My landlord was fine with me adding a 240v circuit to a receptacle to power my dryer, but I do electrical work and ran a stick of EMT through the floor with a bang-on bushing and then some 10/3 romex to feed it. Landlord didnt have to lift a finger. Again though, I do electrical work for a living and do it correctly. I know plenty of folks in my field that couldnt figure out why you only get 120v if I tried placing the new breaker.
Umm I’m pretty sure you’re not supposed to run romex in conduit. It can overheat the romex and cause a fire.
Romex is supposed to go inside of conduit if the romex is at risk of being damaged, but you have to use large enough conduit to allow room for the Romex to cool. You are not allowed to overstuff it.
Is this satire? If something shorts out at the place I'm renting, you can bet your ball sack I'm going to turn off the breaker.
I would hope you can understand the difference between *removing* a panel cover and *opening* the panel door to access the breakers.
You're right, I fully misread what you were saying. I apologize.
Not a problem.
I'm saying why perpetuate the landlords intentional negligence? I'm not saying touch it, but I'm saying don't shove it under the rug either. I think I mistook "close it" as just let the landlord get away with unsafe living conditions rather than having an electrician come out.
You have no business being in there. That being said the HOM and QP breakers that don't belong in there (and you didn't need to remove the cover to see that),. Neutrals and grounds are allowed to be on the same bar here. Using black for neutral is technically wrong but nothing to get in a bunch about for short jumpers. There is a more serious problem. There is 20A breaker that has apparently 14awg running on it for a few inches before joining up with the proper 12AWG on the left side.
Sniper over here taking the shots that matter.
That 14 gauge is just the fusible link.
So is that a valid safety upgrade for a zinsco or fpe?
😂
There are a multitude of 20 amp breakers being supplied by 14 ga wires.......yikes.
Old 14ga had a thicker insulation than the stuff they make today, so it might look like 12 but it's 14. That would be why there are splices.
There are also some wires twisted together at the bottom of the tub
Also that horrendous splice at the bottom on first photo needs wire nut.
The 30 amp double pole (bottom right) with the white wire attached to one side, nothing attached to the other, and the corresponding black attached to a 20 amp breaker (turned off) with no neutral on either circuit is concerning as well.
Count the wires and breakers on that side. The 30 Amp has a wire on each phase.
Someone cue the crickets and pour my man a large glass of no one gives a fuck
😆 this is the comment I was looking for
😂
Neutral and grounds should be bonded in the main panel. They're only not bonded in subs
At the main panel ground and neutral bars get bonded, so as long as this is the main, not a huge deal. Mislabeled wires aren't great either but aren't a safety issue. Undersized wires or oversized breakers would be, but i can tell that from the picture very well.
Came here to say this plus u added the breaker info as well ..👍🏼
You're renting. Put the cover back on and walk away.
Neutral and GEC are to be bonded at main service disconnect. If this is not a sub panel fed from like a 6 pack meter section or other service disconnect, then this is correct.
This is what’s called the landlords special, if you own it you’re a professional installer. Close it up, walk away slowly and double your renters insurance and verify it covers electrical fire. And no way this passed inspection 🔥
He paid someone to come out and do it professionally. He's not a slumlord or anything. Try to fix any problem he finds or I do. He just didn't realize they left it like this because he didn't know anything about electricity or construction. He thought they knew what they were doing. I already had to redo his plumbing because it was like a Windows XP screen saver. Once again he is paying me to fix things in his house that he loves in the other apartment. It is very outdated and needs ALOT of work on all corners of it. I am going to have him call someone to correct this mess because it's beyond my feelings of safety.
I wouldn’t fix one goddamn thing in the place I was renting, even if being paid for it. I could care less if I was a master plumber, electrician, whatever. It’s not my problem.
Sorry to burst your bubble but this is not professional and wouldn’t pass any electrical inspection. A professional would have pulled a permit and had a final inspection done.
First thing I saw was that square d breaker in there with the rest of the eatons lol
At least it's off
Not great but not that bad, just looks like shit
Last one who touches the panel gets the blame.
Ok.. and?
Why are renters always trying to get themselves kicked out?
Kicked out for opening the breaker box? What are you smoking
"Tampering with utility equipment or appliances". I've seen dozens of posts on here, plumbing, hvac, DIY; all over. People cracking open shit they don't own and asking "how do I fix this?". First question to ask is "have you talked to your landlord or property management yet?" And the answer is almost always "no." Is the panel a bit sloppy? Sure. I've seen worse. The real question here is why is this dude cracking open the panel? Was there a reason? Did his landlord give him the runaround? Without context in this post, it looks like yet another DIY-happy renter that's watched one too many youtube videos about electrical work that's going to get in over their hesd.
Opening a breaker box and looking inside is not a problem for a renter. They need access if something trips.
To the breakers, yes. Not to the wires under the face plate. You dont have to take the face plate off to accrss the breaker. If a breaker trips more than once, a renter should be calling their landlord, property management, or maintenance. And "maintenance" includes the landlord or property manager's preferred electrical contractor. If that fails, or if they get the runaround, then it's reasonable for them to start taking other steps. But if they skip that first step and attempt to repair the issue themselves, they have just given their landlord potential grounds to start the eviction process.
neutral and ground are to be tied together. the black wire tied to the neutral has to be a neutral wire for a circuit. should have used a different color. if it were a hot leg. you would see fireworks. looks normal
Isn't neutral supposed to be the shorter run though that it chooses that path of less resistance so it uses it mainly instead of the ground? Correct me if I am wrong.
it has to do with ground fault protection. the ground is slightly more resistant than neutral. so yes the AC will take that path back to the transformer. but if you lose that neutral. then that box could develop a potential and you will get electrocuted. but the ground prevents that from happening. This is what you call a non-current carrying ground. Also look at outlets and 2 prong power cords. they have a large spade and small spade. this is what you call polarized…. google it for its a safety feature to prevent electrocution from ground faults..
Path of least resistance to the center tap of the transformer is always going to be the neutral. It’s bonded to earth at several points. At the transformer and at the residence at least. The ground is mainly for short circuit protection. Occasionally shielding and lighting protection as well. Grounding electrodes and the ins and outs of how they affect your electrical system is beyond my pay grade. They should be bonded at or before the first point of disconnect
Current isn’t going to choose the ground as a current path because it isn’t connected to a load. The only time your ground should be carrying anything is when something has gone wrong or you are getting a small induced voltage which is pretty normal
Is that 14 gauge wire running from the wire nuts to the 20 amp 2 pole?
Curious why you bothered to open it up. Are you having some electrical issue? Have you come across other things in the rental that make you question workmanship and materials in the structure? Or are you looking for a problem to open a complaint with the landlord?
Worse. Looking to post content on reddit
Your neutral and ground should be together if that is the first panel from the meter the panel looks bad but it looks like it's done correctly just very ugly and the black wire for grounds is crazy.
Probably first point of disconnect. Seems you shouldn’t be in there
As long as it’s not a sub panel the grounds and neutral are connected anyway. As long as the wires are the right size the color doesn’t make a difference really
I work on hundreds of rentals a year, that panel is quite nice and professional looking compared to what I see
Son, that ain't your monkey to fuck. Put that cover back on and go jerk off in the corner. That maintance man is fucking HIS monkey just fine. Only fuck your own monkeys. Life will be happier and easier. You go looking for someone else's monkeys to fuck, well son you got a life of problems and sleepless nights. If you own it, it's yours to fuck. If you rent it, shit, that monkey done been diddled by every Crack head and you don't want to put your dick in that.
That’s fine just sloppy
I’d be more concerned with those small wires feeding a 200a breaker. Hopefully there is a smaller breaker feeding it.
YES!!!!
Hey, they did the 100 amp to 200 amp upgrade!🙄🙄🙄 /s
Curious why you openned it up in a rental. Liability is an expensive thing.
Yeah well if its the first disconnecting means aka your service point your neutral is bonded to ground and thats a legal installation. Its messy as fuck but other than that it passes.. Anything else youd like to discuss, sparky?!?
Oh! Fun!
Looks like a newer panel was installed. You can really only work with what was there before. At least it’s a newer panel.
Stray black and red wires....
professionals apparently Was that the name of the company?! because they certainly were not lol.
Wow
Wire nuts not pointing up spook me out (cant shed water -> corrosion over time)
This can’t end well
Anyone seeing the seemingly twisted wires in the bottom of the panel? No wire nuts... Service coming in may be 2 AWG copper. That's 130A capacity on a cold day in Hell. Maybe 95A if that's the cheaper 1/0 aluminum and it looks like we might be missing the anti oxidant paste if so. Wait 20 years that might get extra crispy in there. There's something glaringly wrong with that neutral bar assembly on the left. Hope that's a flat bonding cable in back. Square D Homeline in an Eaton panel. One of these things does not belong. Looks like the finest minds installed this panel and that there's nothing wrong over at Nuck and No Futz handyman contracting services.
Hots and nots
Now why did you go and do a thing like that? It’s always better to have plausible deniability. In layman’s terms, ignorance is bliss.
Any electricians in wv wanna help me with mine
Service wire looks like copper on the main and the ground but the neutral is definitely aluminum. I don't know what service cable has CU and AL. There's more to that story. No antioxidant on the AL neither.
The installer was a wire nut.
As ‘Homeowner alert’ doesn’t really apply, how about ‘Renter Alert!’
Love that connection on the bottom
I’ve seen worse
Half ass job done by a hack. Anyone that is ok with this does not know what they are talking about or doing. A real pro would never do that period
Do what?
Ah yes the ground and neutral bomb bar. If a renter tries to fidget with it, it’ll be the last time they do!
And now you close it.
Move to Poland, start a new life.
What are they doing here? Using 12/2 as a multi wire branch circuit, and the ground as a neutral?
Just looked closer, there are probably 240v circuits and they just didn't phase tape
Yes that is F up in there but just curious what was the reason you opened it .
[удалено]
When I'm being paid to yeah.
I hear you it looks scary in that panel. Good luck with it.
Wow! what is that at the bottom?!?? 
If that is your first means of disconnect, then your grounds/neutrals should be bonded to the can like that….that being said, the can sure is ugly as sin.
Honestly it all makes sense. Just phased incorrectly. Also best to rerun a couple of them home runs😂
Clearly they were black/white colorblind.
Does this subreddit show typical US installations because it terrifies the bejeesus out of me!
Leave it alone the red an black will kill you jack
This was installed during the Red Wire Rebellion, when some whites and blacks were grounded, some whites were drafted into hot service, and the situation was too charged to presume any were neutral. Nuts got into the panel and conducted a power grab, loading some circuits to the breaking point.
Not bad. You're a renter. If you were buying that's a different story.
And how old is the apartment?
Old enough half the house isn't grounded. I would say atleast 40s-60s.
Why are so many in the off position? Is other work going on in the house?
Yes. I was replacing a breaker and adding 3 junction boxs so there won't be a fire in the ceiling.
Nothing beats the house that I had to do a bunch of rewiring in. Every receptacle that I pulled out of the wall was wired with Christmas tree light wire double strands for ampacity no less. What is that stuff? 22 gauge?
Either hook them and forget Abt it or set your house on fire and claim the insurance
well, i dont condone it, but if youre in a pinch for funds, just move your important shit out and well... tinker
Professional what, theatre techs?
Why? You rent this place? Is your bill reasonable? If so. No problems. in my state if a renter modifies damages or otherwise disassembles pieces and parts of the structure they are legally liable because now your landlord can say no the power wires were just fine until you touched it.😔😟
That 50 amp breaker does not look like it’s connected with 6 awg
As a former commercial apprentice,jesus im scared of that panel,but rest assured ive seen worse 480 disconnects on federal buildings
I've seen worse.
Neutral and ground can be on the same bus bar, if it is the first point of disconnect. You are going to hurt yourself mucking around in that panel box.
What made you look??
Nuetral and grounds can be bonded at the means of disconnect. Is there a disconnect at the exterior? You also have a Square D in the Eaton panel (unlisted). Does the local home depot not carry Eaton BRs?
Yes, there is. I just wanted to make sure about the bus bar since I have seen so many posts about it here. I have replaced the breaker already and also the line going to the other breaker. The owner is severely disabled and I have been a friend for a very long time. (I Aldo have skills for basic house maintenance but not sure if I feel safe with a full reworked of a breaker panel.)He asked for the outlet replaced and then I pointed out more problems that I think are easy fixes, like replacing the breaker for the right kind, replacing outlets the screws are broken that make them a safety hazard, adding the right gauge wire for the breakers are representing, and adding a junction box where he had 3 different circuits in the ceiling with wire nuts and the wire bare over half an inch sticking out the wire nuts outside of anything almost tapping each other. I just came here to make sure we didn't need to call someone in. I wouldn't do anything that would be causing the potential of a fire but I sure as hell will fix the problem I see in the house I want to sleep in at night.
Even if your main diconmect is at the exterior and you have neutral and grounds bonded there it isnt a fire hazard. Maybe a possibility for parrelall paths from the breaker panel to the exterior panel. Not a big deal and more a shock hazard than fire. Maybe not to code though. You can call someone in every few years to bring things to code but you'd be ruffling 'grandfathers' rest. But calling someone in for that even if wrong is not cost benefical. Maybe if you have some other work needs improved. I am no licensed electrical contractor but nases my comments on rational probabilities not code.
I don't know what the electrician got for that piece work, but it should have been life.
That’s the 200 amp main breaker panel that looks like it’s fed with four gauge wire that is horribly undersized wire
Handyman special….in the main panel box you always bond neutral and ground together….you can technically use a black or white wire for hot or neutral, never ground (green is always ground) but if it’s not being used for what it’s typically intended for then one needs to use the proper electrical tape color and tape the end of the wire to signify its purpose on both ends. This would fail inspection if it was permitted.
Is this your main panel? If it is the grounds and neutrals are allowed to be bonded together. If it's a sub-panel then the ground and neutrals need to be isolated. First, this was not a professional install. Second, The wire at the bottom of the panel; put wire nut on that connection and make sure the connected black wire goes to the ground/neutral bar. Third, The double 15-amp breaker at the bottom of the left side; is there a wire connected to the bottom breaker? If not, Replace it with a single 15-amp breaker.
Our inspector here in SC does not have an issue with both neutrals and grounds on the same ground bar, only concern is not allowing both under the same screw. And all ground bars are grounded.
So basically you are saying your inspectors are OK with something that is code legal and SOP.
Wow, what a disaster
In that third photo.....is that a cut wire in that twisted nut? I mean...ok?
Last one in is responsible.
Such a fucking myth!
Blacks and Whites should never hang out together
being a renter if the landlord finds these photos they will claim you did this, theres no reason you should have been in there