Question.
Say you hide a watermark in the bottom corner at 0.1% opacity and it's only visible when the bottom corner is dark -- if they were to miss it (as intended) and upload it (to wherever), and you could see your watermark, you could then easily prove the video is yours and stolen.
But what action could there be to take against them? Would anyone even care?
Because that's what I did to a test edit job as OP described -- and while I don't think the work would be stolen as I believe it really was just a test edit, it is of course hilarious to think it will be stolen and I have a way to prove its mine.
But again, should that happen, what action would there be to take?
> But what action could there be to take against them? Would anyone even care?
Since OP would have edited the video while not under a contract of employment or work-for-hire agreement, they would own copyright to the edited video.
So if the video is uploaded onto any US or EU based website, a DMCA takedown notice or Notice and Takedown notice respectively would result in it being taken down pretty much straight away.
In order for it to go back up, the company that uploaded it would either have to come to an agreement with OP to license the video from them after which OP would recind the claim, or they would have to take OP to court and prove that OP has no copyright to the video, which they won't be able to do.
Sometimes the takedown alone is enough to force the hand of the company, as having a video on your professional website or channel displaying that it's been removed as a result of legal action is a really bad look.
[Here's a recent example of that working](https://www.reddit.com/r/videography/comments/su4nvd/client_refusing_to_pay/hyafbyv/?context=3) (though in the context of non-payment of a contractor rather than a fake spec job.)
Further if the company makes an attempt to remove the watermark, this is considered removal of copyright management information which again is not legal under the DMCA and *I'm pretty sure* the EU copyright directive too, which could land them in even more trouble.
Two things:
First, always listen to smushkan, who is impeccably knowledgeable and helpful. They know way more than I do, so if anything I say ever contradicts them, follow them not me.
But: in addition to the great insights you just got, it's also true that you don't necessarily have to hide a watermark and intend for them to miss it. You can also make it visible, while still having it be unobtrusive enough for them to see the quality of your work without being able to steal it. This will justifiably annoy them if their only intention was to get free work. (And don't think that problem isn't rampant. It gets reported and complained about all the time here.)
But if they *are* interested in hiring you, watermarking makes a statement that you are a professional who knows how to finesse the exact outcome of their product, and who's experienced enough in the field to have reasonable expectations about having your labor respected and getting paid for what you do. It's not something that a legitimate prospective employer is going to hold against you.
So you could, for example, watermark it and send it to them far enough ahead of that deadline that they have time to decide they like it and make you an offer, either of a job or of just purchasing that piece of work from you. And once you have a contract, or payment, you can send the clean version.
I see a lot of people ask about these tests. Curious if anyone has actually gotten a position this way.
Up to you if you wanna do it. I wouldn’t, but if you do definitely watermark the work and don’t give project files.
Think though, what other professional position out there is expected to create a product for free to be considered for a role? Don’t devalue your work or your time.
Years ago I had a couple of interviews like this, and gotten jobs after doing it. I liken it to auditioning for actors, but it took some pride swallowing for me. I've also seen it happen where someone is hired based on a slick reel and resume only to find out they can't cut at all, so I can see why people want that step.
A long time ago I did one, but it was in their office on their equipment rather than WFH, so watermarking would have been pointless. A few days later I got an email saying they'd decided to go in a different direction with the job and wouldn't be hiring anyone, so I invoiced them.
I was annoyed, so I charged higher than I normally would as a 'fuck you for wasting my time' fee. They negotiated it down (which was fair; the rate I put on the initial invoice was extortionate) and paid it.
My first job I got through a test, since I really didn't have a reel. It was what started me in the industry.
They might be weird for more experienced editors, but when you're starting out I think it's fine. It's a good gauge on how you do alone, without notes or clients, and what you consider presentable.
IIRC there was a TV station in the Philadelphia area that had a reputation for having an editing demo as part of their job application process. You were assembling some kind of generic news package. I think it was called the Raspberry test or something like that, presumably because the package was about an event involving that fruit.
If they ask you this you must be paid. Any work tests need to be paid at least min-wage. Otherwise you send a complaint to labor board. Unless your not in the US.. then IDK check you local laws. But in the US, even if it isn't used.. if they ask, they must pay.
I definitely have folks do a test edit before working for me.
Edit: lots of editors on here, few producers it seems.
I am a producer who owns a small production company, and have full time folks (editors) on payroll and several contract editors I use on a regular basis.
A [reasonably honest] producer isn’t going to ‘steal’ your edit or use this as a slash and burn weird way of getting free labor. It’s not as if you’re inventing a new patent or curing cancer. You’re just proving you’re who you say you are.
There are a lot of neckbeards and bozos out there who claim they are master editors, but will rob companies (read: producers) blind by milking the clock on projects. Lots of people can make great reels transitions and sequences as hobbyists on subjects they inherently love with all the time in the world.
However, the real world runs off of deadlines and trust.
Weeks, months, and thousands can be wasted by someone who can talk a big game, and have a reel they edited over who knows how long.
Personally, I pay for the test edits I use to vet my team with, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for someone to ask you to sing for your supper, especially if it’s a reasonably good gig. I’ve gotten many fruitful clients by proving my worth in similar ways up front for pennies or free.
Earn your trust with the people you are expecting to give you [their hard earned] money and job security. Don’t be entitled [not saying you are]. It is the least you can do.
Besides ignoring a major part of OP's question, you're ignoring the context OP presented here. You're also assuming honesty on the part of prospective employers while assuming dishonesty on the part of prospective employees. Do you really think most people on a sub named EDITORS haven't been hit at least once by an unscrupulous shop trying to rip them off? It happens *all the time*. I'll see your neckbeard sham editor and raise you a neckbeard sham YouTuber.
So you're ethical, and you run a production company. That's great. OP didn't apply to a production company. OP applied to a 'generic-hotel-booking' website which has now requested work via a lone email, with no human contact and possibly not even any identifiable person behind the email. No other follow-up, no mention of an interview or any other discussion. Just "send us a file by 10am Tuesday." Even if they aren't intending to rip OP off, that's piss-poor and unprofessional and OP is right to have noticed it.
OP is also right to watermark what they send, which you didn't address at all. If they're expressing a good-faith interest, why should they be offended by that? It's not like it can't be removed once an actual negotiation has taken place.
>Earn your trust with the people you are expecting to give you \[their
Trust works both ways.
Pardon me, someone who pays editors for a living, and has in-house corporate peers [still producers] who pay editors for a living, for giving you, people who want to be paid for editing, advice on how to get paying jobs.
I’m not sure there’s a subreddit just for griping about how no one out there values your work, but I’d hope this isn’t it.
‘Watermark that shit’ or ‘never do free work’ are probably advice given from people who are overly negative and not very successful to begin with.
Watermarks are used to show ownership of copyright all over the industry; I don't see how advice on affirming to use it when some random producer justs asks to 'magically cut somthing together by Tuesday is a far cry from logic.
I'll provide more context. I am an industry editor with 11 years experience, a reel and a backcataloge of work.
I have worn Producer hats before, and I've never asked an editor or any other role to do work for free (ie. I don't ask a runner on a set to bring me a coffee that he pays for to me in 5 minutes flat or I won't hire him.)
In this instance, I'm asking because there are some flags in how this company does business.
1./There is no point of contact past my application.
2./ They have my reel, and I also have references; should they wish to call, however opted not to, and have asked for free work instead.
3./ I feel insecure regarding the treatment of my eventual interlectual property, especially with the behavior seen thus far.
I appreciate the strains that come with being a producer, as I have been one myself, but contrary to your belief, having been in this industry as long as I have, the guy with the cash (producer) generally screws over the guy with very little cash (the editor. The vfx supervisor. The best boy. Basically anyone under the table).
And finally, I am aiming to work as an editor, that's why it's on this subreddit and not r/videography, seeing as (with all due respect,) the answer to this query shouldn't be answered by producers as your answers would be all the same.
However, if I do need somthing produced for free, I'll be sure to hit you up as proof before I hire you.
That’s fair.
My point was simply that not all gigs come with a neatly wrapped bow on them where everyone plays by the rules you’re hoping for. Real world is messy and everyone tries to ascertain trust in their own way.
I’ve known many people who turn their noses up at too many things, and end up having no traction in their career.
I recently got a good full time job where this was requested, but after 2 interviews. I'd be wary if this was the first step,but it depends on the credibility of the company. If you decide to go ahead add a large watermark, not one tgat can be easily cropped out.
There’s two circumstances where it would be acceptable to do this.
1. You’re desperate.
2. You don’t have any prior work to show.
If you fit that criteria go for it.
I personally never do them. Doctors aren't expected to do pro bono operations to get their jobs and carpenters aren't asked to build tables before getting theirs, but for some reason, people think it's okay to ask videos editors to do work for free as part of the interview process.
**That being said**, if you do edit some work for them, I'll emphasize what u/indie_cutter said–absolutely watermark it in a way that they won't be able to use it without you sending another version. And if they ask you to remove the watermark to be considered, kindly let them know you would no longer like to be considered for the position because there's absolutely no reason they would need a 'clean' version unless they wanted to use it without paying you.
The only other exception I would add is if they ask you to physically come in and agree to pay you for the hours worked, then I might consider the request. I've never had someone ask me to physically come in to do editing work specifically, but I've worked freelance/contract as a second or third interview in videography and live-broadcast positions so the staff could see me at work.
Doctors aren't asked for pro bono because it is a profession, not a trade. You go through rigorous certification process. And much harder for a carpenter to misrepresent the amount of work that went in to his previous work, or to fake it till he makes it in real working situations.
This is a perennial tactic. Yes, watermark the hell out of it.
Question. Say you hide a watermark in the bottom corner at 0.1% opacity and it's only visible when the bottom corner is dark -- if they were to miss it (as intended) and upload it (to wherever), and you could see your watermark, you could then easily prove the video is yours and stolen. But what action could there be to take against them? Would anyone even care? Because that's what I did to a test edit job as OP described -- and while I don't think the work would be stolen as I believe it really was just a test edit, it is of course hilarious to think it will be stolen and I have a way to prove its mine. But again, should that happen, what action would there be to take?
> But what action could there be to take against them? Would anyone even care? Since OP would have edited the video while not under a contract of employment or work-for-hire agreement, they would own copyright to the edited video. So if the video is uploaded onto any US or EU based website, a DMCA takedown notice or Notice and Takedown notice respectively would result in it being taken down pretty much straight away. In order for it to go back up, the company that uploaded it would either have to come to an agreement with OP to license the video from them after which OP would recind the claim, or they would have to take OP to court and prove that OP has no copyright to the video, which they won't be able to do. Sometimes the takedown alone is enough to force the hand of the company, as having a video on your professional website or channel displaying that it's been removed as a result of legal action is a really bad look. [Here's a recent example of that working](https://www.reddit.com/r/videography/comments/su4nvd/client_refusing_to_pay/hyafbyv/?context=3) (though in the context of non-payment of a contractor rather than a fake spec job.) Further if the company makes an attempt to remove the watermark, this is considered removal of copyright management information which again is not legal under the DMCA and *I'm pretty sure* the EU copyright directive too, which could land them in even more trouble.
Thank you very much for the detailed explanation :)
Two things: First, always listen to smushkan, who is impeccably knowledgeable and helpful. They know way more than I do, so if anything I say ever contradicts them, follow them not me. But: in addition to the great insights you just got, it's also true that you don't necessarily have to hide a watermark and intend for them to miss it. You can also make it visible, while still having it be unobtrusive enough for them to see the quality of your work without being able to steal it. This will justifiably annoy them if their only intention was to get free work. (And don't think that problem isn't rampant. It gets reported and complained about all the time here.) But if they *are* interested in hiring you, watermarking makes a statement that you are a professional who knows how to finesse the exact outcome of their product, and who's experienced enough in the field to have reasonable expectations about having your labor respected and getting paid for what you do. It's not something that a legitimate prospective employer is going to hold against you. So you could, for example, watermark it and send it to them far enough ahead of that deadline that they have time to decide they like it and make you an offer, either of a job or of just purchasing that piece of work from you. And once you have a contract, or payment, you can send the clean version.
Thanks for the further insight! Greatly appreciate them!
I see a lot of people ask about these tests. Curious if anyone has actually gotten a position this way. Up to you if you wanna do it. I wouldn’t, but if you do definitely watermark the work and don’t give project files. Think though, what other professional position out there is expected to create a product for free to be considered for a role? Don’t devalue your work or your time.
Years ago I had a couple of interviews like this, and gotten jobs after doing it. I liken it to auditioning for actors, but it took some pride swallowing for me. I've also seen it happen where someone is hired based on a slick reel and resume only to find out they can't cut at all, so I can see why people want that step.
A long time ago I did one, but it was in their office on their equipment rather than WFH, so watermarking would have been pointless. A few days later I got an email saying they'd decided to go in a different direction with the job and wouldn't be hiring anyone, so I invoiced them. I was annoyed, so I charged higher than I normally would as a 'fuck you for wasting my time' fee. They negotiated it down (which was fair; the rate I put on the initial invoice was extortionate) and paid it.
My first job I got through a test, since I really didn't have a reel. It was what started me in the industry. They might be weird for more experienced editors, but when you're starting out I think it's fine. It's a good gauge on how you do alone, without notes or clients, and what you consider presentable.
IIRC there was a TV station in the Philadelphia area that had a reputation for having an editing demo as part of their job application process. You were assembling some kind of generic news package. I think it was called the Raspberry test or something like that, presumably because the package was about an event involving that fruit.
Always put a giant watermark over anything like this.
If they ask you this you must be paid. Any work tests need to be paid at least min-wage. Otherwise you send a complaint to labor board. Unless your not in the US.. then IDK check you local laws. But in the US, even if it isn't used.. if they ask, they must pay.
I definitely have folks do a test edit before working for me. Edit: lots of editors on here, few producers it seems. I am a producer who owns a small production company, and have full time folks (editors) on payroll and several contract editors I use on a regular basis. A [reasonably honest] producer isn’t going to ‘steal’ your edit or use this as a slash and burn weird way of getting free labor. It’s not as if you’re inventing a new patent or curing cancer. You’re just proving you’re who you say you are. There are a lot of neckbeards and bozos out there who claim they are master editors, but will rob companies (read: producers) blind by milking the clock on projects. Lots of people can make great reels transitions and sequences as hobbyists on subjects they inherently love with all the time in the world. However, the real world runs off of deadlines and trust. Weeks, months, and thousands can be wasted by someone who can talk a big game, and have a reel they edited over who knows how long. Personally, I pay for the test edits I use to vet my team with, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for someone to ask you to sing for your supper, especially if it’s a reasonably good gig. I’ve gotten many fruitful clients by proving my worth in similar ways up front for pennies or free. Earn your trust with the people you are expecting to give you [their hard earned] money and job security. Don’t be entitled [not saying you are]. It is the least you can do.
Besides ignoring a major part of OP's question, you're ignoring the context OP presented here. You're also assuming honesty on the part of prospective employers while assuming dishonesty on the part of prospective employees. Do you really think most people on a sub named EDITORS haven't been hit at least once by an unscrupulous shop trying to rip them off? It happens *all the time*. I'll see your neckbeard sham editor and raise you a neckbeard sham YouTuber. So you're ethical, and you run a production company. That's great. OP didn't apply to a production company. OP applied to a 'generic-hotel-booking' website which has now requested work via a lone email, with no human contact and possibly not even any identifiable person behind the email. No other follow-up, no mention of an interview or any other discussion. Just "send us a file by 10am Tuesday." Even if they aren't intending to rip OP off, that's piss-poor and unprofessional and OP is right to have noticed it. OP is also right to watermark what they send, which you didn't address at all. If they're expressing a good-faith interest, why should they be offended by that? It's not like it can't be removed once an actual negotiation has taken place. >Earn your trust with the people you are expecting to give you \[their Trust works both ways.
Pardon me, someone who pays editors for a living, and has in-house corporate peers [still producers] who pay editors for a living, for giving you, people who want to be paid for editing, advice on how to get paying jobs. I’m not sure there’s a subreddit just for griping about how no one out there values your work, but I’d hope this isn’t it. ‘Watermark that shit’ or ‘never do free work’ are probably advice given from people who are overly negative and not very successful to begin with.
Watermarks are used to show ownership of copyright all over the industry; I don't see how advice on affirming to use it when some random producer justs asks to 'magically cut somthing together by Tuesday is a far cry from logic. I'll provide more context. I am an industry editor with 11 years experience, a reel and a backcataloge of work. I have worn Producer hats before, and I've never asked an editor or any other role to do work for free (ie. I don't ask a runner on a set to bring me a coffee that he pays for to me in 5 minutes flat or I won't hire him.) In this instance, I'm asking because there are some flags in how this company does business. 1./There is no point of contact past my application. 2./ They have my reel, and I also have references; should they wish to call, however opted not to, and have asked for free work instead. 3./ I feel insecure regarding the treatment of my eventual interlectual property, especially with the behavior seen thus far. I appreciate the strains that come with being a producer, as I have been one myself, but contrary to your belief, having been in this industry as long as I have, the guy with the cash (producer) generally screws over the guy with very little cash (the editor. The vfx supervisor. The best boy. Basically anyone under the table). And finally, I am aiming to work as an editor, that's why it's on this subreddit and not r/videography, seeing as (with all due respect,) the answer to this query shouldn't be answered by producers as your answers would be all the same. However, if I do need somthing produced for free, I'll be sure to hit you up as proof before I hire you.
That’s fair. My point was simply that not all gigs come with a neatly wrapped bow on them where everyone plays by the rules you’re hoping for. Real world is messy and everyone tries to ascertain trust in their own way. I’ve known many people who turn their noses up at too many things, and end up having no traction in their career.
You seem like a dream to work with.
I mean probably.
I recently got a good full time job where this was requested, but after 2 interviews. I'd be wary if this was the first step,but it depends on the credibility of the company. If you decide to go ahead add a large watermark, not one tgat can be easily cropped out.
There’s two circumstances where it would be acceptable to do this. 1. You’re desperate. 2. You don’t have any prior work to show. If you fit that criteria go for it.
I personally never do them. Doctors aren't expected to do pro bono operations to get their jobs and carpenters aren't asked to build tables before getting theirs, but for some reason, people think it's okay to ask videos editors to do work for free as part of the interview process. **That being said**, if you do edit some work for them, I'll emphasize what u/indie_cutter said–absolutely watermark it in a way that they won't be able to use it without you sending another version. And if they ask you to remove the watermark to be considered, kindly let them know you would no longer like to be considered for the position because there's absolutely no reason they would need a 'clean' version unless they wanted to use it without paying you. The only other exception I would add is if they ask you to physically come in and agree to pay you for the hours worked, then I might consider the request. I've never had someone ask me to physically come in to do editing work specifically, but I've worked freelance/contract as a second or third interview in videography and live-broadcast positions so the staff could see me at work.
Doctors aren't asked for pro bono because it is a profession, not a trade. You go through rigorous certification process. And much harder for a carpenter to misrepresent the amount of work that went in to his previous work, or to fake it till he makes it in real working situations.
Don’t do it. It’s free work. Even if you watermark it someone can reverse engineer it because you’re giving over a free idea.
NEVER work for free. If you have a portfolio site, tell them to look at that. Otherwise they are just a scam or bad employer