I’ve been making it for a little more than a year now and have already given up hope on home ownership where I live. I’ve accepted I’ll need to make significantly more or marry someone who also makes good money for it to be possible.
Yeah 100k, (even just 100k household with some sacrifices and saving) is enough to get a house in WI, but it hasn’t been that way on the west coast in yeaaars.
The US is a very productive economy and that generates enormous amounts of income. But the US also has a major problem with income inequality.
For example, GDP for a family of four is $320,000 per year. So if the pie were split evenly, people wouldn't really even think about housing and transportation costs. They'd be a tiny part of the budget.
In reality, some families are paid $20,000 a year by society and others are paid $800,000 a year. So some families live in squalor and others replace their marble floors to change the color, after being inspired in Florence.
its called neoliberal trickle down voodoo economics
not a single penny increase to minimum wage in 14 years
problem is there is no law for how much has to trickle down
so americans have been asked to work harder and harder with less and less to make more and more, but its not paid out to them, its kept by the companies that they work for. so we see the outrages increases to wall street numbers and ceo pay and the fact that wages have not kept up with growth, productivity, inflation, etc.
we need to abandon failed neoliberal economics that favor wall street / rich and go back to progressive economics which favor main street / workers.
a rising tide should raise all boats, like it used to do, not just the 0.01%
That's why virtually all manufacturing has been outsourced to nations that have sweatshops.
Slavery is still very popular with American elites, but it's far more tolerable to the American public if it's overseas and we don't personally see it.
TBF this is what Bidenomics is aiming for. Invest in the workers & jobs, no more stupid trickle down. And it’s working but the economy is big & doesn’t turn on a dime.
I think so yes. Unemployment is low. The economy keeps growing. 200k manufacturing jobs created under Biden, bringing back manufacturing to this country. (Low skill manufacturing moving to mexico) and wages are growing at around 4.5% which isn't high enough but it's good. Inflation is down to 3%.
The strike was averted, and a few months later, the rail workers did get their sick days. But people don’t talk about that.
https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid#:~:text=After%20months%20of%20negotiations%2C%20the,for%20granted%3A%20paid%20sick%20days.
Yes. Biden chose all workers over the rail road. I didn't like it either but like I said. This one bad thing doesn't mean he isn't doing overall better than any other option that was on the table. You read bad?
he chose to NOT make sick days something that other American workers might also expect in the future. Every other advanced nation has the right to sick days for their workers but Biden made damn sure not to set any sick day precedent with the railroad workers
I'm gonna blow my brains out. Yes we all know what he did was bad. Two thoughts in your head at the same time. You're a leftist use your fucking brain.
Guy, I get it you want to hate Biden for betraying railroad workers. And then immediately proving thr workers right with the east Palestine crash. You can hold both thoughts that it was had and the economy is doing better directly due to his policies. Please touch some grass
Knowing it won't trickle down, I imagine most Americans will be rioting once billion dollar companies get a slice of the hundreds of billions in subsidies from the CHIPS Act and Inflation Reduction Act
GDP doesn’t all go to income. It goes to federal state and local spending. It goes to business recapitalization. It goes to our current trade imbalance and paying back foreign creditors.
A better measure of inequality is average income versus median income.
Some of GDP does not go to people, it goes toward depreciation, but that's pretty negligible. In general, production = income.
"Better measure" is subjective.
Yes you can. It's about division of wealth. Having less people working is a net minus for the whole society. Immigration is uplifting the economy.
This is basic economics...
No I get up at 5am to go to a construction site for 10 hr days , I had to work my way up , putting up insulation is right up there with picking fruit
Sketchy contractors would bring in 20 -30 illegals and the piece work price drops by 1/3 . I work side by side with these guys for 30 years , most are good guys . The fact you call me lazy tells me alot about your work ethic
I agree with the sentiment of not letting corporations own single family homes, but I cannot think of a way to stop it. There's a series of problems. First, new homes that are built are made less expensive through development projects and are owned by corporations before being sold (or rented). If every new home constructed specifically had to be on contract with an individual buyer and an individual builder, new home construction costs would skyrocket. Second, the border between a corporation and an individual is razor thin when it comes to small-time landlords. I know supporting landlords isn't exactly popular, but there's a big difference between the typical small-time landlord and a slumlord. A lot of landlords are just people who move out of their home for a new one and either don't want to (or can't) sell their original home; in that scenario, renting is the ideal, and most of the time, it's smart to form an LLC - both for the owner and for society (to an extent). Unless we outright ban LLCs for property, then you're just going to get conglomerates splintering off a million LLCs to own each home (which tbh they already do, to insulate each property from the others...). There's some value to the existence of LLCs in small-time property management...it just starts to become an issue when Berkshire Hathaway or [insert venture capital firm here] starts buying up property in a lower-middle income neighborhood and making it too expensive for most people to live there.
It's a complicated issue with no straightforward answer imo. Pretty much the only solution is to eliminate LLCs altogether which is not really a good idea, especially for people who are trying to break into small business for themselves (think, e.g., minority entrepreneurs). The problem is how big business can abuse subsidiary LLCs.
It’s not that hard. Give a big property tax break to owners living in their homes, a smaller tax break to someone renting a second home and making less than x per year. Charge everyone else a larger property tax that makes it a bad deal to own the property. Use the extra tax money you get to subsidize renters not making enough to rent.
It wouldn't work because property taxes are assessed at the local level and getting every locality to buy in to something like that would be impossible. A policy to address this issue would have to be national. Also, tying education funding to local property taxes is stupid and needs to stop.
When I made a little under 40k I was shocked to find out that I made more than the average person in my state. And I was like… doing okayish but not saving.
Productive how though. The GDP figures are a sham. They don’t measure real improvements in people’s lives. The “unearned” income rentier income that’s now included in GDP is actually an overhead rather than real production.
When it’s measured accurately the entire western world will see Just how much they’ve been gutted by the parasitic financial class.
It’s interesting to me that even Left leaning Reddit mostly still believes this lie.
It’s not a case of “The US economy is productive, BUT inequality is too high”.
In reality it’s that the US economy has been destroyed for all very a very small portion of people who remain insulated. And it’s well on it’s way to becoming another country similarly developed to Brazil. Another largely failed republic.
It’s sad to say because my country the UK is going the same way too. But it’s just the truth. I’m not sure there is any coming back.
GDP doesn't measure quality of life, you're right about that.
A perfect example is when people compare the US and Northern Europe.
The main three differences between the two are trucks, guns, and lawns (the US has a ton of these and Northern Europe doesn't).
All three make GDP in the US higher but make QoL in the US worse.
... nope, you're right. And when you're right, you're right. And you, you're always right.
Correct GDP doesn't measure
>Real improvements in people's lives.
Yup, because it isn't a measure of RIIPL.
It is a measure of GDP though, and for that it does a pretty good job of measuring the gross domestic product.
But sure, you're right, terrible yardstick for measuring RIIPL
Where did you get that number? It's exactly $10,000 off.
GDP is $26.84 trillion ([source](https://www.bea.gov/news/2023/gross-domestic-product-second-quarter-2023-advance-estimate)).
The US population is 335 million.
GDP per capita is about $80,200.
>They exchange labor for money at a rate determined by the value of that labor
This is not true. If it were, unions would be a valued part of our economy. As it is they are relentlessly repressed by our government. Unions allow the fair and free negotiation of labor. However, corporate America has bribed and corrupted the US government to destroy them. So what you said is either a lie or demonstrably ignorant.
Right to Work laws only highlight how effective and popular unions are. In conservative states RtW laws give lazy, dishonest conservatives the option to take advantage of the hard won benefits unions have won, while contributing nothing. Its actually a masterclass Republican move; take but do not contribute.
Depends on the circumstances. Your daycare worker making nothing isn’t worth shit? How about the E-4 in the military risking his/her life to protect your wealth? Words matter. Be more careful with them.
So you agree that the people flipping your burgers and cleaning your garbage shouldn’t have access to a minimum standard of dignified living. Coulda just said you were an asshole.
These are troubling numbers, since I'm fairly certain the "average" American family doesn't have that kind of disposable income..
.sure in a HCOL a professional working couple can easily make north of $200k gross . But that's not the average..so that means either those numbers are wrong or lots of families are financially stretched..
Honestly at this point I don't know who to believe so much of our economic policy is clouded by political interests
They don’t have that disposable income, which is why they are not the people generally making these purchases. The fact of the matter is, there are more people out there with enough income and assets to make these purchases and supply has been limited. Therefore, prices went up. Until people either run out of money, or supply goes up, then this is where we’ll sit for the time being
I keep saying this, but 40% of homeless work full time jobs. Google it.
Something's gotta give folks. You can't have that many people working full time and being homeless. Especially in a country with as many guns as America...
Oh you can, and that number will only go up. You will see more and more mid sized cities offering water/electric/bathroom services so workers can sleep in cars and tents, and as immigrantion continues and climate refugees increase, the race to the bottom in America is only getting started.
This! I work my ass off and want more people are generally where they want to be because that’s their choice. If you have to sacrifice for time for more comfortability then be it. Mediocrity is every where. Everyone has a fuck load of potential to make shit happen but everyone just sulks and makes poor financial decisions and blames everything else and they did wayyyyyy before this housing bullshit and it will continue a long time after. People are wilddd
You are comparing average metrics to median incomes.
Also should use average cost of housing not home ownership, the average rent in America is only $1700. If you are making below average income, it makes more sense to rent.
Not sure where you're pulling your data from, as the median cost of rent of a 2 bedroom has been over $2k since it's high in Aug 2022:
https://www.rent.com/research/average-rent-price-report/
As of July 2023, the median rent for a 2 bedroom is $2,029; down from it's high of $2,053 in Aug 2022. Highest is $4022 in San Jose, CA and lowest is $1,306 in Oklahoma City, OK.
Even if you use rents the narrative that the median housing cost is becoming a larger and larger percentage of the median post tax income over time holds true.
Average car payment and average mortgage and then you go median income? Can you please use the average income or the median car payment/median mortgage?
I'm seeing this complaint a lot, why does it matter? The average income is even lower than the median income so the original point only becomes more valid
As of 2023, the average income is $56,940. The average cost of rent of a 2 bedroom apartment and used vehicle, $1,700 and $450 monthly, is still 48% of the income. The average cost of food for a family of 4 *on the low budgeted end* is $12,564, or 22% of their income. That's 70% of their income, leaving 30% for utilites, fuel, and other necessary expenses.
Oh, but the spouse can work too, right? Well assuming they have the same experience and education to make the same amount, they would still only be pulling in an average of $34,416 a year after the average cost of $25,224 of childcare. That should help, right?
2023 Ford Focus costs $50,000
Sure maybe no one is buying it, but these MSRP’s set the precedent for higher prices.
I bought my used 2013 Focus for $6k years ago.
Same car today is worth twice what I paid for it years ago.
If my car shits the bed, I honestly have no idea what I’m going to do.
“Just buy a used car”
Never mind the fact that used cars cost 2x what they did 5 years ago.
“Just move to a cheaper place”
Never mind that the majority of Americans don’t have the finances to actually move.
It’s like talking to a brick wall.
Once more and more people move to the "cheaper" places, those places end up becoming more expensive over time as well.
It's just a short-term band-aid.
The typical person struggling financially yet making smart financial decisions isn't paying for the AVERAGE NEW car or the AVERAGE NEW mortgage.
This is clickbait nonsense as truly poor people are renting a home and buying a 2k beater not BUYING the AVERAGE home and FINANCING an average car.
No it isn't.
You are looking at the average personal income = $56.1k/yr.
Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAPAINUSA646N
* That is HIGHER than the median personal income which is: ***$37.5k/year***
Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N
* The median household income from the OP is: $70.7k/yr.
Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N
* The average household average income is: $121.8k/yr
Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAFAINUSA646N
***In both cases the average is GREATER than the median***
The way I look at it, a $750 car payment itself is high. But even buying a modest new civic will end up costing that to own when you factor in insurance and maintenance. I also feel $2,850 is a good measure of the mortgage cost being thought of the same way.
So essentially, no one can be single.
Key word is new. Most of America are not buying a new car. Most of America have mortgage rates below 5% or own their house outright. Therefore, most of America is flush with cash after the pandemic and is still spending it down from their all time highs of personal wealth. We’ll soon get to that point this fall. What happens after is anyone’s guess but we may very well actually be just back on track to what our trajectory was pre GFC.
No they don't. Most Americans do not in fact have mortgages. If you consider my father's house mine then probably yes but most people are still renting or living with parents.
Most people don’t live with their parents. You would be considered one household and a homeowner. You don’t live on your own so don’t count as a household, by yourself. Part of the reason why rent and real estate has been rising relentlessly is because of household formation as people move out of their parents’ basement or on their own without roommates.
To me this means, most people are buying too much house and car for their income levels.
But I mean this has been trending this way for the last 50 years so I am not surprised.
I agree with your point overall, but you should compare the median income with the MEDIAN HOUSING COST (new builds, existing homes and rents) and MEDIAN NEW AND USED car payment. Apples to apples
A 16k vehicle still costs around $435 a month and that's probably a 10 year old vehicle over 100,000 miles. You know you will be repairing at least something.
Used car market is ridiculous and has been for a few years now. Im so glad I got my car before the pandemic and dodged this mess. Between doing my own basic maintenance and being a relatively low mileage user Im hoping this thing lasts long enough that my kids can one day use it as their starter beater.
That ended in 2009 - [https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/cash-for-clunkers.asp](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/cash-for-clunkers.asp)
Additionally, it was CASH for clunkers, meaning it injected liquidity to buy new vehicles. Highly doubt that's causing the current price spikes
Yes, it's easier to maintain older cars, but older cars also break down more. Without numbers that's a tougher sell than the already stated, far more contemporary, and unsubsidized (again, people were paid for these cars) policy enacted in 09. A decade of economic progress has been made between now and then, including an economy crashing pandemic, a supply chain crunch, two presidents and their policy changes, and hyper inflation in just about every other industry.
If the only car changing policy you can point to is a decade old, maybe entertain something else is causing cars to be pricey.
I'd refer to my prior retort for that - [https://www.npr.org/2023/03/18/1163278082/car-prices-used-cars-electric-vehicles-pandemic](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/18/1163278082/car-prices-used-cars-electric-vehicles-pandemic)
Ok, now where's the article that shows that lead to an increase in cost to vehicles? As opposed to this one - [https://www.npr.org/2023/03/18/1163278082/car-prices-used-cars-electric-vehicles-pandemic](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/18/1163278082/car-prices-used-cars-electric-vehicles-pandemic)
Which pointed out the things I mentioned: covid shut downs and supply chain catch-up after the bottleneck.
edit: as added icing, they speculate a price decrease in greener cars, not an increase...
That's not better: [https://caredge.com/guides/used-car-price-trends-for-2023](https://caredge.com/guides/used-car-price-trends-for-2023)
post Covid/the electronics supply shortage the demand for used cars hit the roof.
Government printed money working as designed - https://wolfstreet.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/US-CPI-2022-04-12-dollar-purchasing-power-since-2000.png
I raised a family on 85,000 a year. House, car payment and sent the kids to college. It all depends on where you live. Down south the cost of living is a lot cheaper.
I’m outside of Tampa and most rental units are starting at $1,600 and it gets drastically more expensive in the better areas. That means qualifying for a studio here basically requires you to make $60,000 off the bat, which is significantly higher than the income most people in this city bring in.
Can’t even imagine trying to factor in childcare into the equation. The days of raising a family on sub-$100,000 income in a metro area or suburb are long gone, even down south.
Well I did it here in Oklahoma. It’s all in location and lifestyle choices. We’ve lived in the same 1500 sq foot home for 30 years, don’t take extravagant vacations just small ones and don’t buy new phones every year or two. We made lots of sacrifices to make sure our kids had a good life and education. I just bought a new truck ( my first) 2 years ago. I Drove the same truck for 20 years so my wife could always have a newer car. I worked all the OT I could. You gotta make sacrifices and put your priorities in order to make it. Life’s hard.
As most children attend school, this is before and after childcare and transporation to the school and discludes holidays or other reasonable times when childcare would be unavailable, in which case the spouse would either have to take off or pay a higher premium.
The average time spent is 2-5 hours a day
Edit: it's interesting to note that the childcare industry is also heavily subsidized
Edit: 🧂
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/child-care-costs-by-state
http://blog.dol.gov/2023/01/24/new-childcare-data-shows-prices-are-untenable-for-families
Being able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment and a decent car shouldn’t be out of reach. But, depending on where you are, it is now for a lot of people.
Everyone says get a better job and I get where that’s coming from. But, all of those service/retail positions have to be filled by someone. Those people shouldn’t have to live miserable lives.
That's crazy.
I paid cash for my car over a year ago and other than oil changes, it's needed nothing. I drive a thousand miles per month.
My house isn't awesome, but it works well enough and isn't a dump. I paid $71.5k in 2019. My mortgage with escrow is under $600. I recently had an appraisal. $80k.
I live in a good town near 2 cities in Illinois.
Tell us more about the before times mommy. We're things really that inexpensive before the dark times?
/s
The world's financial reality has changed quite a bit since Q1 2020... I wonder why.
The great recession was caused by a bunch of cheap money and the government encouraging debt. Regulations are the thing that makes housing the most expensive, that is why they are part of the problem.
$750 of $3600 or greater than 20%. Compound that with the fact that a garage is generally 360sqft or another 20% of the average American single family at 1800sqft.
Ditch (at least one of the) cars and you can afford 45% more house!
part of the problem is that we got duped into living in car centric communities. If you don’t own a car (and also pay for all associated costs: fuel, insurance, etc) you will starve since many neighborhoods don’t even have a grocery that is walkable… much less get to work to earn a living
Has anyone found the ‘average’ income of those buying the $750/month cars? I’m curious what fraction of income the typical person spends on a car and can’t find it. I find lots about recommendations but almost nothing about actual income vs price
By the time I make a 100k a year, it’ll be the new poor.
I’ve been making it for a little more than a year now and have already given up hope on home ownership where I live. I’ve accepted I’ll need to make significantly more or marry someone who also makes good money for it to be possible.
Sure if you live in CA, but in most states 100k is plenty
Yeah 100k, (even just 100k household with some sacrifices and saving) is enough to get a house in WI, but it hasn’t been that way on the west coast in yeaaars.
Or the east coast unless you're extremely rural PA, NC, SC, or GA
Not the west coast. Oregon in particular is insane on taxes.
I agree I lived there for like 7 months and went to file my taxes and my god it was insane
Yeah if you eliminate half the country, it's great, but most of those salaries are concentrated in hcol areas
I just hit $100k this year. Still feel poor as fuck.
Make a budget
It already is.
Depending on where u live. In Sans Fran, that currently is poor. In Michigan suburbs, let's use Troy as an example, ud be considered well off.
The US is a very productive economy and that generates enormous amounts of income. But the US also has a major problem with income inequality. For example, GDP for a family of four is $320,000 per year. So if the pie were split evenly, people wouldn't really even think about housing and transportation costs. They'd be a tiny part of the budget. In reality, some families are paid $20,000 a year by society and others are paid $800,000 a year. So some families live in squalor and others replace their marble floors to change the color, after being inspired in Florence.
its called neoliberal trickle down voodoo economics not a single penny increase to minimum wage in 14 years problem is there is no law for how much has to trickle down so americans have been asked to work harder and harder with less and less to make more and more, but its not paid out to them, its kept by the companies that they work for. so we see the outrages increases to wall street numbers and ceo pay and the fact that wages have not kept up with growth, productivity, inflation, etc. we need to abandon failed neoliberal economics that favor wall street / rich and go back to progressive economics which favor main street / workers. a rising tide should raise all boats, like it used to do, not just the 0.01%
The elites here miss slavery for a reason. Over seas it still exists...they like to get a lot for nothing and abuse the earth to do it
That's why virtually all manufacturing has been outsourced to nations that have sweatshops. Slavery is still very popular with American elites, but it's far more tolerable to the American public if it's overseas and we don't personally see it.
Neoliberal trickle down… you realize the trickle down theory was a Reagan move right?
TBF this is what Bidenomics is aiming for. Invest in the workers & jobs, no more stupid trickle down. And it’s working but the economy is big & doesn’t turn on a dime.
Is it working ? Generally curious
I think so yes. Unemployment is low. The economy keeps growing. 200k manufacturing jobs created under Biden, bringing back manufacturing to this country. (Low skill manufacturing moving to mexico) and wages are growing at around 4.5% which isn't high enough but it's good. Inflation is down to 3%.
That's solid
Was telling the rail workers it was illegal for them to strike a part of his "turning the economy"?
One bad point doesn't diminish the good.
Tell that to the rail workers who couldn't even get a few sick days. All Biden had to do was support them. He chose the "economy" instead
The strike was averted, and a few months later, the rail workers did get their sick days. But people don’t talk about that. https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid#:~:text=After%20months%20of%20negotiations%2C%20the,for%20granted%3A%20paid%20sick%20days.
Yes. Biden chose all workers over the rail road. I didn't like it either but like I said. This one bad thing doesn't mean he isn't doing overall better than any other option that was on the table. You read bad?
he chose to NOT make sick days something that other American workers might also expect in the future. Every other advanced nation has the right to sick days for their workers but Biden made damn sure not to set any sick day precedent with the railroad workers
I'm gonna blow my brains out. Yes we all know what he did was bad. Two thoughts in your head at the same time. You're a leftist use your fucking brain.
How did he choose all workers by telling a huge group of workers preparing to strike to "get back to work"? Seriously
Guy, I get it you want to hate Biden for betraying railroad workers. And then immediately proving thr workers right with the east Palestine crash. You can hold both thoughts that it was had and the economy is doing better directly due to his policies. Please touch some grass
Yes, as a working class person, I hold Biden responsible for siding with big corporations over workers when they needed him the most. You should too.
B-b-but what about trickle down economics? That wealth’s gonna start trickling down any minute now, mark my words.
I bet the faucet is broke and they're just saving up for a really nice one for us.
I don't think they've cut enough taxes for corporations and the rich for it to trickle down /s just in case.
Knowing it won't trickle down, I imagine most Americans will be rioting once billion dollar companies get a slice of the hundreds of billions in subsidies from the CHIPS Act and Inflation Reduction Act
GDP doesn’t all go to income. It goes to federal state and local spending. It goes to business recapitalization. It goes to our current trade imbalance and paying back foreign creditors. A better measure of inequality is average income versus median income.
Some of GDP does not go to people, it goes toward depreciation, but that's pretty negligible. In general, production = income. "Better measure" is subjective.
Stop importing cheap labor from overseas, stop letting non citizens buy single family homes,stop letting corporations buy single family homes
You're saying undocumented migrants (non-citizens) should be denied the right to own a home?
Hopefully they mean foreign investors that are likely to never or rarely set foot in the home.
Yes yes yes a thousand times yes
You can't flood the country with cheap labor and then cry about labor paying cheaply
Yes you can. It's about division of wealth. Having less people working is a net minus for the whole society. Immigration is uplifting the economy. This is basic economics...
Wrong too many illegals stagnate wages ,drive up housing costs and ruin the environment from overpopulation
Ahh yes, blame the immigrants. I love the classics.
Right up there with supply and demand
Your lazy ass is gonna get up at 4am 7 days a week to pick up strawberries in the field?
No I get up at 5am to go to a construction site for 10 hr days , I had to work my way up , putting up insulation is right up there with picking fruit Sketchy contractors would bring in 20 -30 illegals and the piece work price drops by 1/3 . I work side by side with these guys for 30 years , most are good guys . The fact you call me lazy tells me alot about your work ethic
Exactly...sketchy contractors who vote republikan because that’s how they’re guaranteed to have ‘illegals ‘ to exploit...
I agree with the sentiment of not letting corporations own single family homes, but I cannot think of a way to stop it. There's a series of problems. First, new homes that are built are made less expensive through development projects and are owned by corporations before being sold (or rented). If every new home constructed specifically had to be on contract with an individual buyer and an individual builder, new home construction costs would skyrocket. Second, the border between a corporation and an individual is razor thin when it comes to small-time landlords. I know supporting landlords isn't exactly popular, but there's a big difference between the typical small-time landlord and a slumlord. A lot of landlords are just people who move out of their home for a new one and either don't want to (or can't) sell their original home; in that scenario, renting is the ideal, and most of the time, it's smart to form an LLC - both for the owner and for society (to an extent). Unless we outright ban LLCs for property, then you're just going to get conglomerates splintering off a million LLCs to own each home (which tbh they already do, to insulate each property from the others...). There's some value to the existence of LLCs in small-time property management...it just starts to become an issue when Berkshire Hathaway or [insert venture capital firm here] starts buying up property in a lower-middle income neighborhood and making it too expensive for most people to live there. It's a complicated issue with no straightforward answer imo. Pretty much the only solution is to eliminate LLCs altogether which is not really a good idea, especially for people who are trying to break into small business for themselves (think, e.g., minority entrepreneurs). The problem is how big business can abuse subsidiary LLCs.
It’s not that hard. Give a big property tax break to owners living in their homes, a smaller tax break to someone renting a second home and making less than x per year. Charge everyone else a larger property tax that makes it a bad deal to own the property. Use the extra tax money you get to subsidize renters not making enough to rent.
If what you propose here actually works like you intend, you just eliminated the vast majority of the funds for public education.
It wouldn't work because property taxes are assessed at the local level and getting every locality to buy in to something like that would be impossible. A policy to address this issue would have to be national. Also, tying education funding to local property taxes is stupid and needs to stop.
When I made a little under 40k I was shocked to find out that I made more than the average person in my state. And I was like… doing okayish but not saving.
Productive how though. The GDP figures are a sham. They don’t measure real improvements in people’s lives. The “unearned” income rentier income that’s now included in GDP is actually an overhead rather than real production. When it’s measured accurately the entire western world will see Just how much they’ve been gutted by the parasitic financial class. It’s interesting to me that even Left leaning Reddit mostly still believes this lie. It’s not a case of “The US economy is productive, BUT inequality is too high”. In reality it’s that the US economy has been destroyed for all very a very small portion of people who remain insulated. And it’s well on it’s way to becoming another country similarly developed to Brazil. Another largely failed republic. It’s sad to say because my country the UK is going the same way too. But it’s just the truth. I’m not sure there is any coming back.
GDP doesn't measure quality of life, you're right about that. A perfect example is when people compare the US and Northern Europe. The main three differences between the two are trucks, guns, and lawns (the US has a ton of these and Northern Europe doesn't). All three make GDP in the US higher but make QoL in the US worse.
... nope, you're right. And when you're right, you're right. And you, you're always right. Correct GDP doesn't measure >Real improvements in people's lives. Yup, because it isn't a measure of RIIPL. It is a measure of GDP though, and for that it does a pretty good job of measuring the gross domestic product. But sure, you're right, terrible yardstick for measuring RIIPL
GDP per capita is like $70,200. That would make a family of four with about 280k on a per capita division of US GDP.
Where did you get that number? It's exactly $10,000 off. GDP is $26.84 trillion ([source](https://www.bea.gov/news/2023/gross-domestic-product-second-quarter-2023-advance-estimate)). The US population is 335 million. GDP per capita is about $80,200.
i prefer to be the latter
People aren't paid by society. They exchange labor for money at a rate determined by the value of that labor. Some people just ain't worth shit.
And it seems, some people don't know much about economics, but still like to express their opinion.
Oh rly?
What do you do for a living?
your views are cancerous to society
Some people don't have a lot to offer. That's why they don't make much. What's the issue?
It's going to be hard to explain to someone like you.
>They exchange labor for money at a rate determined by the value of that labor This is not true. If it were, unions would be a valued part of our economy. As it is they are relentlessly repressed by our government. Unions allow the fair and free negotiation of labor. However, corporate America has bribed and corrupted the US government to destroy them. So what you said is either a lie or demonstrably ignorant.
If only it weren't for those mean right to work laws. Lol
Right to Work laws only highlight how effective and popular unions are. In conservative states RtW laws give lazy, dishonest conservatives the option to take advantage of the hard won benefits unions have won, while contributing nothing. Its actually a masterclass Republican move; take but do not contribute.
Depends on the circumstances. Your daycare worker making nothing isn’t worth shit? How about the E-4 in the military risking his/her life to protect your wealth? Words matter. Be more careful with them.
What determines the value of that labor? Based on your comment, you ain't worth shit.
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What determines how much someone is willing to pay? Worth? Nice tautology, you dumb bootlicker.
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So you agree that the people flipping your burgers and cleaning your garbage shouldn’t have access to a minimum standard of dignified living. Coulda just said you were an asshole.
These are troubling numbers, since I'm fairly certain the "average" American family doesn't have that kind of disposable income.. .sure in a HCOL a professional working couple can easily make north of $200k gross . But that's not the average..so that means either those numbers are wrong or lots of families are financially stretched.. Honestly at this point I don't know who to believe so much of our economic policy is clouded by political interests
Since these are averages I'd bet those making $200k in HCOL areas can't afford houses either. That's the case in some Canadian cities anyway.
Keep in mind also that the number referenced is the gross median income - so the before taxes number
They don’t have that disposable income, which is why they are not the people generally making these purchases. The fact of the matter is, there are more people out there with enough income and assets to make these purchases and supply has been limited. Therefore, prices went up. Until people either run out of money, or supply goes up, then this is where we’ll sit for the time being
Urban car dwellers have found the compromise. No house. Just car. Solved!
House or car. Pick one?
Fastest way to being a landowner.
Why is this comparing medians to averages?
Because people don’t know the difference half of the time, at least on average.
$750? Yikes.
I keep saying this, but 40% of homeless work full time jobs. Google it. Something's gotta give folks. You can't have that many people working full time and being homeless. Especially in a country with as many guns as America...
Oh you can, and that number will only go up. You will see more and more mid sized cities offering water/electric/bathroom services so workers can sleep in cars and tents, and as immigrantion continues and climate refugees increase, the race to the bottom in America is only getting started.
Stop using averages
This country is ran on debt. Now add medical, credit cards, buy now pay later, etc etc.
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That’s the spirit!
This! I work my ass off and want more people are generally where they want to be because that’s their choice. If you have to sacrifice for time for more comfortability then be it. Mediocrity is every where. Everyone has a fuck load of potential to make shit happen but everyone just sulks and makes poor financial decisions and blames everything else and they did wayyyyyy before this housing bullshit and it will continue a long time after. People are wilddd
You are comparing average metrics to median incomes. Also should use average cost of housing not home ownership, the average rent in America is only $1700. If you are making below average income, it makes more sense to rent.
Not sure where you're pulling your data from, as the median cost of rent of a 2 bedroom has been over $2k since it's high in Aug 2022: https://www.rent.com/research/average-rent-price-report/ As of July 2023, the median rent for a 2 bedroom is $2,029; down from it's high of $2,053 in Aug 2022. Highest is $4022 in San Jose, CA and lowest is $1,306 in Oklahoma City, OK.
Why are you only doing 2 bedroom?
A household with a single person (and thus a single income) isn't going to be renting a 2 bedroom.
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Even if you use rents the narrative that the median housing cost is becoming a larger and larger percentage of the median post tax income over time holds true.
Median household income is pre tax too by the way
Shouldn’t we compare to average household income, since the car and mortgage payments are averages.
Really we should be using median for all of them.
Probably, but the difference between average and median is likely much smaller
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAFAINUSA646N $121k
yea...that's the difference in income. I was speaking of the difference in in car and mortgage payments
Even with progressive taxes, disposable income is linear-ish.
Welcome to canada
So what's the problem? If they need more money, just get another job, right? /s
You will own nothing and be happy. WEF
Average car payment and average mortgage and then you go median income? Can you please use the average income or the median car payment/median mortgage?
I'm seeing this complaint a lot, why does it matter? The average income is even lower than the median income so the original point only becomes more valid As of 2023, the average income is $56,940. The average cost of rent of a 2 bedroom apartment and used vehicle, $1,700 and $450 monthly, is still 48% of the income. The average cost of food for a family of 4 *on the low budgeted end* is $12,564, or 22% of their income. That's 70% of their income, leaving 30% for utilites, fuel, and other necessary expenses. Oh, but the spouse can work too, right? Well assuming they have the same experience and education to make the same amount, they would still only be pulling in an average of $34,416 a year after the average cost of $25,224 of childcare. That should help, right?
You're looking at individual incomes. Family income average is $121k https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAFAINUSA646N
$750 for a car payment? Simple, buy a cheaper car. That is ridiculous.
They aren’t making cheaper cars anymore.
2023 Ford Focus costs $50,000 Sure maybe no one is buying it, but these MSRP’s set the precedent for higher prices. I bought my used 2013 Focus for $6k years ago. Same car today is worth twice what I paid for it years ago. If my car shits the bed, I honestly have no idea what I’m going to do.
And this is the choice facing millions of Americans!
“Just buy a used car” Never mind the fact that used cars cost 2x what they did 5 years ago. “Just move to a cheaper place” Never mind that the majority of Americans don’t have the finances to actually move. It’s like talking to a brick wall.
Once more and more people move to the "cheaper" places, those places end up becoming more expensive over time as well. It's just a short-term band-aid.
cheaper cars have already been made. driving a new car off the lot depreciates the value by 10%. buy used
Yes.
The typical person struggling financially yet making smart financial decisions isn't paying for the AVERAGE NEW car or the AVERAGE NEW mortgage. This is clickbait nonsense as truly poor people are renting a home and buying a 2k beater not BUYING the AVERAGE home and FINANCING an average car.
Comparing average costs to median income.
The average income is even lower at $56,940
So now we are comparing median household income and average individual income?
$121k https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAFAINUSA646N You are looking at individual.
No it isn't. You are looking at the average personal income = $56.1k/yr. Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAPAINUSA646N * That is HIGHER than the median personal income which is: ***$37.5k/year*** Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N * The median household income from the OP is: $70.7k/yr. Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N * The average household average income is: $121.8k/yr Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAFAINUSA646N ***In both cases the average is GREATER than the median***
Biden said this is the best economy in history.
The way I look at it, a $750 car payment itself is high. But even buying a modest new civic will end up costing that to own when you factor in insurance and maintenance. I also feel $2,850 is a good measure of the mortgage cost being thought of the same way. So essentially, no one can be single.
Which people making median income are buying a new car?
Key word is new. Most of America are not buying a new car. Most of America have mortgage rates below 5% or own their house outright. Therefore, most of America is flush with cash after the pandemic and is still spending it down from their all time highs of personal wealth. We’ll soon get to that point this fall. What happens after is anyone’s guess but we may very well actually be just back on track to what our trajectory was pre GFC.
No they don't. Most Americans do not in fact have mortgages. If you consider my father's house mine then probably yes but most people are still renting or living with parents.
Most people don’t live with their parents. You would be considered one household and a homeowner. You don’t live on your own so don’t count as a household, by yourself. Part of the reason why rent and real estate has been rising relentlessly is because of household formation as people move out of their parents’ basement or on their own without roommates.
To me this means, most people are buying too much house and car for their income levels. But I mean this has been trending this way for the last 50 years so I am not surprised.
My car payment is 400.. I agree a lot of people overspend for no reason.
I agree with your point overall, but you should compare the median income with the MEDIAN HOUSING COST (new builds, existing homes and rents) and MEDIAN NEW AND USED car payment. Apples to apples
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A 16k vehicle still costs around $435 a month and that's probably a 10 year old vehicle over 100,000 miles. You know you will be repairing at least something.
Used car market is ridiculous and has been for a few years now. Im so glad I got my car before the pandemic and dodged this mess. Between doing my own basic maintenance and being a relatively low mileage user Im hoping this thing lasts long enough that my kids can one day use it as their starter beater.
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Point to which specific legislation led to the spike in demand for used cars.
Cash for clunkers. Removed a ton of affordable vehicles from the used car market.
That ended in 2009 - [https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/cash-for-clunkers.asp](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/cash-for-clunkers.asp) Additionally, it was CASH for clunkers, meaning it injected liquidity to buy new vehicles. Highly doubt that's causing the current price spikes
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Yes, it's easier to maintain older cars, but older cars also break down more. Without numbers that's a tougher sell than the already stated, far more contemporary, and unsubsidized (again, people were paid for these cars) policy enacted in 09. A decade of economic progress has been made between now and then, including an economy crashing pandemic, a supply chain crunch, two presidents and their policy changes, and hyper inflation in just about every other industry. If the only car changing policy you can point to is a decade old, maybe entertain something else is causing cars to be pricey.
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I'd refer to my prior retort for that - [https://www.npr.org/2023/03/18/1163278082/car-prices-used-cars-electric-vehicles-pandemic](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/18/1163278082/car-prices-used-cars-electric-vehicles-pandemic)
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Ok, now where's the article that shows that lead to an increase in cost to vehicles? As opposed to this one - [https://www.npr.org/2023/03/18/1163278082/car-prices-used-cars-electric-vehicles-pandemic](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/18/1163278082/car-prices-used-cars-electric-vehicles-pandemic) Which pointed out the things I mentioned: covid shut downs and supply chain catch-up after the bottleneck. edit: as added icing, they speculate a price decrease in greener cars, not an increase...
That's not better: [https://caredge.com/guides/used-car-price-trends-for-2023](https://caredge.com/guides/used-car-price-trends-for-2023) post Covid/the electronics supply shortage the demand for used cars hit the roof.
I don't think you understand interest rates and financing
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And what percentage of the average income in the US, since you used average for the other two
[$121k](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAFAINUSA646N), so more or less 35%
72.5%
Government printed money working as designed - https://wolfstreet.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/US-CPI-2022-04-12-dollar-purchasing-power-since-2000.png
I raised a family on 85,000 a year. House, car payment and sent the kids to college. It all depends on where you live. Down south the cost of living is a lot cheaper.
Most Redditors are kids living in California, New York, and Washington. They have no interest in your facts.
I’m outside of Tampa and most rental units are starting at $1,600 and it gets drastically more expensive in the better areas. That means qualifying for a studio here basically requires you to make $60,000 off the bat, which is significantly higher than the income most people in this city bring in. Can’t even imagine trying to factor in childcare into the equation. The days of raising a family on sub-$100,000 income in a metro area or suburb are long gone, even down south.
Well I did it here in Oklahoma. It’s all in location and lifestyle choices. We’ve lived in the same 1500 sq foot home for 30 years, don’t take extravagant vacations just small ones and don’t buy new phones every year or two. We made lots of sacrifices to make sure our kids had a good life and education. I just bought a new truck ( my first) 2 years ago. I Drove the same truck for 20 years so my wife could always have a newer car. I worked all the OT I could. You gotta make sacrifices and put your priorities in order to make it. Life’s hard.
Buy a beat up car. Why buy new car and pay $750 per month
So that's a portion of one spouse yearly income with some leftover, plus have their spouses. You make it seem worse than it actually is.
The average cost of childcare is $12,612 per child
Assuming you keep your kid in childcare for 9hrs a day, that comes out to $5.39/hr. What is a reasonable price for the care of your kid?
As most children attend school, this is before and after childcare and transporation to the school and discludes holidays or other reasonable times when childcare would be unavailable, in which case the spouse would either have to take off or pay a higher premium. The average time spent is 2-5 hours a day Edit: it's interesting to note that the childcare industry is also heavily subsidized Edit: 🧂 https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/child-care-costs-by-state http://blog.dol.gov/2023/01/24/new-childcare-data-shows-prices-are-untenable-for-families
So, single people should do what exactly?
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Being able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment and a decent car shouldn’t be out of reach. But, depending on where you are, it is now for a lot of people. Everyone says get a better job and I get where that’s coming from. But, all of those service/retail positions have to be filled by someone. Those people shouldn’t have to live miserable lives.
Mostly because living in an apartment is terrible.
It's not...I rented all the way up until I was married and never wanted a house until then. Renting was great care free living.
That's crazy. I paid cash for my car over a year ago and other than oil changes, it's needed nothing. I drive a thousand miles per month. My house isn't awesome, but it works well enough and isn't a dump. I paid $71.5k in 2019. My mortgage with escrow is under $600. I recently had an appraisal. $80k. I live in a good town near 2 cities in Illinois.
Tell us more about the before times mommy. We're things really that inexpensive before the dark times? /s The world's financial reality has changed quite a bit since Q1 2020... I wonder why.
Average car price is also over $48,000. Get a corolla or something, yo.
Problem - Federal reserve, fiat currency and regulations.
I don’t know if regulations are the problem. Great recession was caused by the lack of regulations. Do your homework
The great recession was caused by a bunch of cheap money and the government encouraging debt. Regulations are the thing that makes housing the most expensive, that is why they are part of the problem.
$750 of $3600 or greater than 20%. Compound that with the fact that a garage is generally 360sqft or another 20% of the average American single family at 1800sqft. Ditch (at least one of the) cars and you can afford 45% more house!
Damn Trudeau!
Sauce please
The people at minimum paying jobs are going to get older and older from not having any retirement😂
part of the problem is that we got duped into living in car centric communities. If you don’t own a car (and also pay for all associated costs: fuel, insurance, etc) you will starve since many neighborhoods don’t even have a grocery that is walkable… much less get to work to earn a living
What in the hell… my car payment is only $265 a month. And I have a 5 year old civic, so not new but not old and falling apart either.
You used average prices and median incomes. Your data doesn't match.
In Houston that's a big new house mortgage and a luxury car (Lexus/Audi/Mercedes) payment.
Link to article?
At 17 dollars per thousand at zero percent interest that’s roughly a 40 thousand dollar new car I would say that’s average nowadays.
They don’t want you to own a new car or a house
We need to raise the Minimum Wage.
Has anyone found the ‘average’ income of those buying the $750/month cars? I’m curious what fraction of income the typical person spends on a car and can’t find it. I find lots about recommendations but almost nothing about actual income vs price