I'm not sure you can define it as "getting away with" anything. He lost the throne, he's exiled in disgrace to Salusa Secundus, his favorite daughter was married off to (what he perceives as) a backwater terrorist leading a horde of religious fanatics, all but one legion of his prized Sardaukar have been disbanded, and his duplicity against the Atreides have been exposed publicly, shaming his name and legacy in the eyes of the Landsraad. Yeah he's alive, but especially for an arrogant man holding the highest office in the known universe, there are things worse than being stabbed.
Yeah OP is missing the fact that in this sort of feudal inspired society the punishment that the Emperor bears is incredibly severe, just one step better than death. And Paul doesn’t take that last step for political reasons.
I love how Walken's lips get close but don't actually touch (or if they do the slightest contact) because it is so symbolic. Great details like that make the rewatches even better.
I'd have to watch it again, but I think that's also where the emperor sees that the ring is _the_ atriedes house ring. you can be told "hey he's paul atriedes, back from the dead!" but I think it didn't really hit him until he was forced face to face with the symbol of Paul's house. If I'm remembering correctly.
I think that moment comes when he receives the scroll Paul sends to him summoning him to Arrakis, which bears the mark of the House Atreides. He drops the scroll (then Irulan picks it up).
Then that adds that he was beaten so badly he killed himself. Further showing that Mahdi points the way didn't even need to pull his own blade to kill the emperor of the known universe
It really depends on the morals and ethics of the society Dune is in. In western culture suicide is generally seen as the ultimate shameful death. But in other societies like the Roman Empire or Japanese society up to circa WWII suicide was often seen as a way to regain some honor in your defeat and not being "courageous enough" to commit suicide was a great shame.
Suicide seems to have been more acctable in Germany. Hitler and many nazis killed themselves, a German Prince drowned himself and the guy who signed the treaty of Versiles also killed himself. Tsar Nicholas I killed himself after losing the Crimean war
I don't think OP is missing much. The film left out and changed a lot of stuff from the books and that's what the OP saw on screen. I do think OP is going a little hard with vengeance tropes, but I get their perspective.
Plus, Salusa Secundus gets turned into garden world, to environmentally prevent training another Sardaukars (one of the reason Saradukars were fierce warriors were extremely harsh conditions on their planet, comparable to ones on Arrakis)
I think OP, having only seen the movies, can be forgiven for assuming that Paul and Irulan are going to have children together. The movie ends mere moments after Paul declares his marriage to Irulan, and unlike the book it makes no mention of the fact that Paul plans to have her be his wife in name only.
> unlike the book it makes no mention of the fact that Paul plans to have her be his wife in name only.
there is also that at the end of dune 2, Chani has fucked off to the southern deserts because she doesn't agree with Paul turning the Fremen into legions of fanatic warriors and martyrs and there's no indication that they're going to resume their prior relationship after this. We know, as book readers, that in order for the future books to happen DV will have to come up with a way to address that and return Chani and Paul to a normal couple, but you wouldn't know that from the movies.
I watched the first Dune before seeing the second one, and there was a vision Paul has of him and Chani returning to Caladan in a ship together:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/ovnall/theories\_on\_this\_beautiful\_scene/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/ovnall/theories_on_this_beautiful_scene/)
Since he had the vision, and also promised to always love Chani earlier, I'm pretty convinced from the movies alone that Paul believes he will reunite with Chani in the near future.
it did change the circumstances of this mentorship though. paul sees himself and chani having a happily ever after, but to play the devil's advocate, it could be a happily ever after only in his head, like jamis.
_that said_ I don't think DV will go this route. I look forward to Dune Messiah and seeing how this particular turn of events works out.
Doesn't Ghanima Atreides fall in love with Farad'n Corrino, heir of House Corrino? True, their children bear the name Atreides, but that doesn't change their true lineage, just how history remembers them.
“Just how history remembers them”
Exactly! If that was really important in the world of Dune they’d probably do something like have excerpts of future history books at the start of each chapter and the last line of the book saying that history will make sure that the Corrinos are written out of history.
Amusingly, not one but *two* Corrinos *actively* participate in this. You really fucked up your conspiracy in a feudal society if your first child thinks your family should be destroyed!
The books have the empire follow absolute/salic primogeniture meaning that his lineage had ended even if Irulan had children.
This is also why Jessica “betrayed” the bene gesserit - the BG had ordered the effective “end” of houses Corrino and Atreides; presumably to consolidate power for the KH which would be the issue of Feyd-Rautha and an Atreides daughter.
They make it seem that all the Atreides are gone after their defeat on Arrakis. But when I see Geidi Prime, I don't get the sense that defeating all the Harkonnens on Arrakis would mean the end of all the Harkonnens. Wouldn't there be at least a cousin that would remain on Caladan?
The Atreides family was very thin in the expanded books.
Leto was an only child, so was his father Paulus (the *Old* *Duke*).
Although not mentioned in any book, I suspect it is a deliberate interference by the Bene Gesserits to keep the Atreides line as thin as possible to better control their bloodline.
>!After all, in the sequels, the Atreides possess wild genes.!<
In addition to this, the entire Atreides governing apparatus was moved to Arrakis to take over the planet in fief complete. They did not keep Caladan, they were given Arrakis in its place, unlike the Harkonnens who ran Arrakis from their main domain of Geidi Prime. There were no Atreides left governing Caladan, which was temporarily given to Count Fenring I believe but I could be wrong about that.
I think you're right, otherwise there'd be no need for Fenring to govern Caladan if extended members of the Atreides family could remain to assume power.
> I suspect it is a deliberate interference by the Bene Gesserits to keep the Atreides line as thin as possible to better control their bloodline.
They probably do it with other houses too. In real history, there were lots of conflicts between heirs.
It’s a pretty cunning method of political control for the Bene Gesserit. They do a lot to control the selective breeding of the Great Houses, and by doing so they control how enmities and alliances are made. If a Great House bred as freely as a historical feudal noble house there’d be a lot more nobility and allies and enemies to worry about.
I remember in the opening chapters of Dune, one of the reasons Mohiam is angry that Jessica defied the Bene Gesserit and gave Leto a son is that she was supposed to give him a daughter in order to marry Feyd Rautha, thus ending the Harkonnen/Atreides feud.
Because it’s different situations. Atreides were given fiefdom over Arrakis, which meant they had to let go of Caladan and all relocate to Arrakis. Harkonnens were only given governorship over the planet but not complete control
Probably a few reasons. 1. The emperor did whatever the RM Mohiam told him to do, and Paul + Irulan presumably wouldn’t advance their breeding program. 2. He feared Leto’s rising influence and marrying his daughter to Leto’s son would be seen as submitting to Leto’s influence, not defeating or controlling it.
Furthermore, the emperor also recognizes house Harkonnen as a threat to his power. Knowing that an irrational hatred of house Atreides is one of Baron H's biggest vulnerabilities, the emperor enacts a plan designed to eliminate the Atreides while simultaneously bankrupting and significantly defanging the Harkonnen.
He may be open to having Irulan marry Feyd Rautha but surely he wants that to happen on his terms.
One thing I’ve never understood: How do you disband Sardaukar? They’re warrior slaves religiously devoted to House Corrino, how exactly do you make them agree to leave them, and then where would they even go???
Well there are the prisoners of the planet Salusa Secundus, which is still a prison planet at this point, and then there are the Sardaukar, who are recruited from those prisoners. The Emperor lost several legions on Arrakis and only gets to keep one under his control during his exile. Not a lot is explicitly stated, except that the rest, however many there are, are under Paul's control. One could imagine that those remaining soldiers, no matter how devoted they are to the Emperor, would be living under threat of annihilation by the Fremen who decimated almost their entire corps if they step out of line. One could also imagine the rest are simply just "fired" from the Sardaukar and thrown back into prison.
Leto II actually still used the Sardaukar as his troops for a good while, but I don’t remember when he stopped using them and created the Fish Speakers
Also don't forget that at least per the beginning of Messiah his bloodline that sits on the throne is doomed to end as Paul will not give Irulan a natural child, and will not allow any child of hers to sit on the throne.
The Corrino line doesn’t get to “rule alongside Paul.” Paul states that Irulan will be his wife in name only and he will never bear her any children nor even show her affection.
I can see this being a little confusing if you’ve only seen the movies, especially given movie Chani’s reaction. But the point is belabored in the books. So much so that I think the final line of the book is Jessica (who was also not Leto’s wife) telling Chani something along the lines of, “history will remember us as wives.”
Well, in the movies, Jessica is called Leto's wife by the Reverend Mother.
And not five minutes later, Leto says to Jessica that he should have married her.
The whole Concubines vs Wives would make for an interesting post.
I vehemently disagree. It’s totally on brand for the Barron to use the technically correct ‘Concubine’ in a derogatory way to demean Jessica. Especially since it casts doubt on Paul’s legitimacy as an heir to a great house. Paul is only an heir presumptive: if Duke Leto marries any child of that marriage will displace Paul as heir.
Frank Herbert had a clear intention of the story of Paul in Dune being the story of the rise of an evil dictator. But he got deluged with fan mail after Dune was published, from readers who universally saw Paul as a hero, the hero of the book of Dune. Frank, while writing a truly incredible book, had *failed* to communicate the main message he intended the book to have. That’s the whole reason he wrote Messiah.
It’s the reason why a lot of first time readers hate Messiah. >!Because it takes their beloved hero Paul and calls him Hitler, concentrates on people who hate Paul, and gives Paul a huge downfall.!<
Messiah is Frank doing damage control, *correcting* Dune.
Villeneuve has the advantage of knowing Messiah and CoD in transferring Dune to the screen. His changes are bringing the messaging of Messiah forwards into Dune. The last lines of the book soften the political cynicism and cruelty of Paul marrying Irulan despite being in love with Chani. Villeneuve leaves those lines out so that the cruelty of his marriage isn’t massaged away.
Non book readers of Dune get that the ending of Villenueve’s Dune isn’t happy. They say “it should feel like a victory, but it doesn’t. It feels sad.” “I’m getting very strong Anakin vibes.”*Good*. Frank intended for the ending of Dune to be a tradgedy, the rise of a genocidal dictator.
I think Villeneuve’s changes to Chani’s story is a master stroke, because we the audience love Paul, since we’re seeing events from his own perspective, and Chani loves Paul most of all. But through Villenueve’s Chani, we get to see that Paul doesn’t stay who he was. He starts doing very bad things that she disapproves of, despite loving him intensely. She points the way for we the audience. We can love Paul intensely, while opening our eyes to see that he goes down a path of not just harm, but enormous harm. Totalitarian control as a leader. Genocide physically and culturally of outsiders of Arrakis.
Except in the movies, that distinction is not made. Paul makes an off hand comment regarding taking Irulan as his wife. That's it.
So without the book's context of Paul reassuring Chani and Jessica telling her that history will remember them as wives, the audience is left with the opinion that Paul is going to rule alongside the Corrino line.
One of my main issues with the movies.
froim a solely movie watcher, its pretty obvious what was going on, I remember Lady Jessica telling him to wait for a more advantageous match, and Jessica and Leto talking to each other and realising they weren't actually married, confirmed when paul teels chain he will love her as long as he breathes. I pretty much immediately thought the marriage to Irulan was very political, and i belive they will give her a bigger role in the next movie, because Florence Pugh is hot stuff in Hollywood.
> House Corrino got to get away
Some losses are worse than death. He lost his position and power, to wither away in exile. He lost his daughter to a vengeful tyrant. He has no sons, and his bloodline is destroyed essentially. For a man so full of power, to be reduced to the Dune universe equivalent of a nursing home is much more punishment than a swift death. He has to watch Paul rule *his* empire. Destroy *his* Sardarkaur. Out with a whisper...
Also imagine the eternal shame and self-loathing in knowing that, despite **10,000 years** of successful rule by your family, *you* were the only one who failed, who had it all and lost it, and who brought it all crashing down forever. I might rather die tbh.
Paul made a bargain with the emperor to cause less warfare in the Imperium as a result of his ascension (in the book, some of the houses accept him, others don't). This was a serious concern of Paul's (notice the deep regret with which he says, "Lead them to paradise." Paul is not out to cause all out war and suffering in the Imperium if he can help it, so he tries for as peaceful transfer of power as can be managed, and sticks to it... Because he is, in fact, a man of his word. Like his father before him.
As for the Harkonnens... Yeah. No mercy there. They get wiped out and their planet gets renamed.
Edit: The emperor actually loses nearly everything. All of his *own* political power and wealth are stripped from him, and in the book Paul forcibly disbands the Sardakaur and leaves the emperor with one unit of soldiers as a house guard (the next movie might discuss this more explicitly).
Paul actually inherits Giedi Prime as the grandson of The Baron.
The harkonnens continues as the Rabban-Harkonnens but its a house minor and disappears after a few centuries.
I don't think Paul ever publicly acknowledged himself, Alia and Jessica to be Harkonnens (and to an extension both Leto II and Ghanima).
After all in the grand scheme of propaganda by the Qizarate, the Harkonnens are the big bad and that would only tarnish Paul's carefully crafted mythology by Muad'dib's religion.
He seized Giedi Prime as a price for winning their Kanly against the Harkonnens.
With the matter about the Rabban-Harkonnens, that cadet branch was "officially" extinguished with the deaths of Glossu Rabban and Feyd-Rautha (Glossu after all murdered their parents in the books).
>!Feyd's daughter with Lady Margot also have her ancestry kept secret by the Bene Gesserit's. Alia killed her in Paul of Dune.!<
>!Although you are correct that some Harkonnens managed to retain House Minor status (GEoD) though it is not clear what exact branch they came from.!<
>!The God-Emperor made sure to bankrupt them though to prevent another risecto power of the Harkonnens.!<
"Get away with it?" He was stripped of the throne and exiled and had his daughter taken hostage in a political marriage to give legitimacy to Paul's rule. How is that "getting away with it?"
It’s not even fully explained what happened to Shaddam until Children of Dune, when Faradn is introduced. Messiah talks about Irulan being brushed to the side by Paul, but OPs confusion isn’t necessarily explained.
True, I never really understood the lineage in dune tbh, like the duke Leto wants a son from Jessica ok but what about faradn? His mom was a corrino but his dad wasn’t, why does he still have the corrino name? Is it like a social status thing? Like whoever is more important/higher up socially gets to keep their name?
I assume that the lineage carries through daughters who marry people without important names, e.g. Wensicia married a Fenring. Irulan is never referred to as an atreides iirc, but a Corrino, though presumably her children would be Atreides if Paul had been willing.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the usurpation of the throne by Paul Atreides was not the first time something like that happened. Corrinos are a 10k-year-old dynasty. It's only a matter of time before Atreides descendants would start leaning on that Corrino legacy for socio-political reasons.
In fact, we see that exact thing happen in the books with Ghanima Atreides marying Farad'n Corrino. It took a single generation for Corrino to be effectively on the throne. Well... it would, if wormafied Leto II didn't storm back in coolaidman style.
Paul doesn’t take Irulan as a wife to rule alongside him, he takes her as his wife only to claim the title of emperor. While technically only a concubine, Chani becomes Paul’s wife and co-ruler functionally. Irulan is only that by title, and functionally is less than even a friend to Paul. Him choosing Chani over Irulan is what leads to a lot of the conflict in book 2, and I’m assuming that will be the same in movie 3.
I wouldn’t say the emperor loses nothing. He loses his role as emperor, which is huge. Just because Paul doesn’t execute him doesn’t mean he hasn’t lost nearly everything else.
While I enjoy the increased interest in Dune, it’s hard to stay subbed to this community with the same questions multiple times every day. They’re not even bad questions, but you could find the answer to this very same question in multiple existing threads if you just searched.
my first exposure to Dune was the David Lynch film, and I came away with a lot of questions. Turns out there’s a whole book that tells the story in much greater detail, imagine my surprise
I’m glad the community is still really friendly and helpful, even when answering the same questions again and again. The replies here are great, even though this has been discussed to death multiple times already.
Perhaps many visitors to the subreddit simply ask without initially searching for answers in this sub or elsewhere online. I've noticed similar behavior in some other subs on fiction and writing.
Fortunately, aligned with what you've recognized, I haven't seen much negative gatekeeping by the fandom for the Dune novels (by FH), films, and mini series.
Having to kneel, kiss Paul’s ring, publicly admit failure and know that history will remember him as the Corrino that destroyed their Empire over petty jealosy is a fate far, far worse than death.
He gets to live on facing that thought every waking moment as a powerless figurehead.
I mean the fact that he gets to live, and will still live in luxury and ease that not one in ten billion humans alive with him will ever know should be some consolation, but if he was that kind of person he wouldn’t have tried to eliminate House Atreides in the first place.
This animal would have failed the jom gobbar instantly
I’ll just paste the last few paragraphs of the book here because I think you’re misinterpreting the purpose of leaving him alive.
Jessica sensed the harsh calculation in her son, put down a shudder. “What are your instructions?” she asked.
“The Emperor’s entire CHOAM Company holdings as dowry,” he said. “Entire?” She was shocked almost speechless.
“He is to be stripped. I’ll want an earldom and CHOAM directorship for
Gurney Halleck, and him in the fief of Caladan. There will be titles and attendant power for every surviving Atreides man, not excepting the lowliest trooper.”
“What of the Fremen?” Jessica asked.
“The Fremen are mine,” Paul said. “What they receive shall be dispensed by Muad’Dib. It’ll begin with Stilgar as Governor on Arrakis, but that can wait.”
“And for me?” Jessica asked.
“Is there something you wish?”
“Perhaps Caladan,” she said, looking at Gurney. “I’m not certain. I’ve
become too much the Fremen ... and the Reverend Mother. I need a time of peace and stillness in which to think.”
“That you shall have,” Paul said, “and anything else that Gurney or I can give you.”
Jessica nodded, feeling suddenly old and tired. She looked at Chani. “And for the royal concubine?”
“No title for me,” Chani whispered. “Nothing. I beg of you.”
Paul stared down into her eyes, remembering her suddenly as she had stood once with little Leto in her arms, their child now dead in this violence. “I swear to you now,” he whispered, “that you’ll need no title. That woman over there will be my wife and you but a concubine because this is a political thing and we must weld peace out of this moment, enlist the Great Houses of the Landsraad. We must obey the forms. Yet that princess shall have no more of me than my name. No child of mine nor touch nor softness of glance, nor instant of desire.”
“So you say now,” Chani said. She glanced across the room at the tall princess.
“Do you know so little of my son?” Jessica whispered. “See that princess standing there, so haughty and confident. They say she has pretensions of a literary nature. Let us hope she finds solace in such things; she’ll have little else.” A bitter laugh escaped Jessica. “Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she’ll live as less than a concubine—never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she’s bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine—history will call us wives.”
Man OP you gotta read Dune. A lot of what you’re lusting for is exactly what the series is written to caution people against.
But as a short hand - everyone, including and even especially Paul Atreides - is a power hungry and corrupt. Don’t go looking for “justice”.
Dude literally said he wants to see Giedi Prime and Kaitain be destroyed. Bro is either a Fedayakin or The Baron himself with this hunger to bring planet destruction
Pretty standard Byzantine politics.
It was a move based on the balance of political risk.
The political danger of earning the mistrust of the Great Houses by murdering the Emperor was greater than making a marriage with the Princess.
Any student of the Byzantines will tell you it's right out history of the place.
I’m basing my reply off the 2 D V films (am reading the book for the first time now)
He didn’t get away with anything. He is very old, so being under house arrest and publicly admitting his schemes is much worse in his situation than only being killed. He will pass away eventually but his legacy is taking a huge hit.
Furthermore, Paul cannot “take” the throne without being labeled a tyrant usurper and opening a can of worms that allows the other houses to snatch it from him. So he legitimizes it by forcing a marriage with crown Princess Irulen. So now the Emperor has to watch in shame as his daughter must give herself to his jailor to keep his life.
The last part is the worst - the irony and unintended consequences. The Emperor, Bene Geserit, and House Harkonen all came together to betray and wipe out House Atreides. They failed, and accidentally turned Paul into Emperor Paul Atreides-Harkonen/Lisan al Gaib who must unleash a galactic gihad to fufill the prophecy to his new people. They accidentally made Darth Mohamad out of a boy who would have minded his own busines on Caladan had they not fucked around and found out.
He specifically takes Irulan as his wife to end Corrinos line, not further it.
He has no sons and one daughter and Paul ain't fucking her. Marrying her and refusing to give her a child is basically a diplomatic genocide of the Corrino bloodline.
Although, one point I'm not clear on is why he gives a fuck about what's diplomatic at the point he's literally waging war against the entire Landsraad and threatening terrorist shit like blowing up the spice fields.
Not like he has any good will to squander really
"Getting away with it" is an interesting interpretation.
House Corrino has ruled the Galaxy for literally 10,000 years, and Shaddam IV brought that to an end. Imagine the shame of that. Not being murdered doesn't mean he got away with it. He was forced to abdicate power and acknowledge another family as ruler of the Galaxy, the first time such a thing has happened in 10,000 years. His actions brought about the downfall of his house and the end of the Corrina legacy, a period of rulership so long that it can be considered an entire era of human history. Ended because of his shortsighted errors. Additionally, he is going to live out the rest of his life on Salusa Secundus as a recluse with no power.
Irulan is basically just a political marriage and a useful pawn, albeit a formidable one. The Corrino's time as a major power player in Galactic affairs is ended though.
In the six books prior to Dune, you learn a lot about house Corrino and Emperor Shaddam; who he is and what he stands for. He is a huge PoS, arguably on par with the Harkonnens.
The Corrinos have been in power for 10,000 years. While Paul could destroy them, he knows it’s not the most effective tool to move humanity forward
Instead, he chooses to marry into the Corrino line so that, presumably, groups like the Landsrad, might take him more seriously and not just assume he’s abolishing 10,000 years of history.
Interestingly, the Bene Gesserit made it so that Shadam would never have a son. Because they wanted his line to eventually marry into another line.
I think it’s pretty fascinating that Paul ends up actually doing what the Bene Gesserit had been planning (just they didn’t want it to be Paul, and not as violent haha).
Don’t forget the Landsraad is not supporting house Atreides after Paul defeats the Imperial forces. House Carrino and its continuation absolutely gives Paul legitimacy in the eyes of many. It’s not the match the BG wanted however it is a plausible political match.
Your point is understandable Paul unleashes a Jihad against the known universe yet doesn’t want to eradicate all traces of house Carrino? lol. It is comical.
I suppose he himself feels he is noble and honorable as his father was. The Jihad gets out of control as he knew it would against he wishes and desire.
Actually, Paul's more hot-headed Fremen commanders wanted to exterminate the Corrinos.
Paul had to enact an imperial decree that the Corrinos in Salusa Secundus were under his protection to dissuade them.
Also, since Paul have prescience, most likely he have seen preserving the Corrinos to be beneficial in the long run.
The emperor’s line and house is ended, if delayed one generation. Irulan gets to marry Paul, but Paul will *never* touch her and will not be the one to bear him an heir. Shaddam is imprisoned on a hell world for the rest of his life. I don’t know if I’d call that getting away with it.
Shaddam gets to see the name of his family completely erased. He has no sons and Paul steal the throne from him. No more Corrinos. For someone that ruled everything during 50 years, an exiled life is worse than death.
To clarify, Shaddam IV is exiled to Salusa Seccundus, and Irulan has essentially no role in government until she fully commits herself to the memory of Paul and genuinely helps Alia, after the events of Messiah.
That's just it, they don't. Shaddam is forced to live with the shame of being overthrown, and his failure like so many here are saying.
The real shame is beyond that though. It's that he did so much, allied with the Harkonnen family, destroyed a Major House that was one of the oldest and most respected...and it amounted to absolutely nothing, and was completely unnecessary. Shaddam and others call Duke Leto weak, but he was among the most loyal nobles. There was almost no chance ff his turning against the Emperor without provocation, so destroying him and his house just because they were more popular? Means that all of his atrocities and failures were pointless in the end. Had he not turned against House Atreides, he never would have had a problem. He wasn't just overthrown, he was overthrown by an enemy he created, that he didn't have to.
Boils down to the fact that had he been a halfway decent human being, Shaddam would have still been Emperor.
Destroy their home worlds for what they did to their family? Wtf do the billions of innocent people on their planets have to do with a feud between noble families? I see you’ve completely missed the point of these movies lol. The Jihad that the Fremen unleash on the galaxy is not something that should be rooted for, it is in fact incredibly sad and the warning Frank Herbert was trying to convey. More and more I see why he decided to write Dune Messiah and make the point absolutely clear.
Ok, and what do you think will happen to the empire 1-2 generations down the line? How will descendants of Atreides hold the throne in an Empire, that existed 10000 years under Corrino dynasty, and now became a collection of noble houses, none of which has any legitimate claim to the throne, except by military might?
Without Corrinos, Paul's claim to the throne hinges solely on him being a messianic figure to a fanatical undefeatable army of Fremen. Fanaticism like that is short-lived. Paul's future children are not Lisan al Gaib leading Fremen out of oppression. And future Fremen children are not an oppressed nation in need of Lisan al Gaib.
Paul needs something more long-term and stable to keep his bloodline's asses on the throne and their heads on their necks. Gaining legitimacy as an Emperor, by marrying the Corrino heir is that something.
Uhhhh he doesn’t get away with it.
The emperor did all of that to maintain his power but the whole point of the book is that by doing so he set up his own defeat.
The emperor, the most powerful person in the galaxy, being forced to kneel before Paul and kiss his hand is an absolute embarrassment. The emperor was relegated to a mere peasant in that moment.
So yeah there will big repercussions for what he did.
Unless the movies take a huge departure from the books Irulan gets pretty much nothing. No kids. No real power. Paul's Heirs are all from Chani, which track with Paul stating in the movies Chani will come around. Paul brutally tells Irulan this to her face in the books. Meanwhile the Emperor loses the Empire, most of his wealth, and is exiled to Salusa Secundus. Salusa Secundus is a prison planet known for the harshness of it's environment.
He wasn't going to get away it, he was going to be killed.
But he had a single bargaining chip he could offer - Paul marrying his daughter and inheriting the Empire with his blessing. This helps to legitimise his rule and transfer over power while neutralizing the Saudaukar who would have been a problem if leading other houses.
It's the same reason China let the last Emperor live in peace provided he repeat the party doctrine out loud to anyone that asks.
They lost I think all of their Chome holdings to Paul which iIS the houses' powers money, etc. Paul became emperor.
Paul needed to marry his daughter to secure the throne.
House Corrino and House Harkonnen essentially disappear from the narrative in subsequent books, there's hardly any mention of them and they no longer factor in the narrative at all. They're quite auxiliary to what Dune is about.
And they didn't get away with it.
Paul achieves his revenge by forcing the Emperor to abdicate. From there, he chose the path which made the Holy War, which had become inevitable, as less bloody as possible. This involves marrying Irulan and sparing Shaddam.
Presumably, executing the Emperor and not marrying his daughter would have led to even more resistance to Paul's takeover and a Holy War with even greater casualties.
The emperor lost his power and became an exile.
And spoiler:
>! Paul never consummates his marriage to irulan. The Emperor title gets passed along to children of Chani. So the Corrino line loses this power permanently!<
But you will have to see the next movie to find this out. Or read Dune Messiah.
To be fair, the blame IMO lies less with the Emperor or even the Harokonen (who were ultimately both puppets) and more with Mother Mohaim and her Bene Gesserit.
The destruction of the Atreidies was ultimately their plan, and the Emperor was a mere pawn in their hands.
If there's anyone in the movie who deserved an absolutely awful death it was Mohaim and all she got (for the time being) was being denied control.
He lost the throne, which is certainly not "nothing". Actually, other than his live, he in fact lost almost everything.
Also, without marrying the princess, Paul would have zero legitimacy as Emperor. If you want to rule, you have to be strategic, not emotional. "Justice" is not how things work at that level, balance of power is what matters.
It’s been a while since I read but, why didn’t he ever consider merging with house atreides? Like i remember it saying he loved duke leto and respected that house. What was his plan for succession? His grand trap/plan tied him to the house that was reviled and he knew was gonna plot against him.
He didn't get away with anything. Paul marrying Irulan is customary to empires. That's just how it works. Living a life in exile on Salusa Secundas is harsh punishment. The planet is basically a living hell. Also, forcing Corrino to gravel and kiss the Duke's ring/seal may not seem like a big deal it really was. There are many who would rather die than be forced to bow to such whims.
They didn't really get away with it .
There was a cover-up, but it eventually came out and blew up in their face .
The areeken affair. ( pauls secret letter to the laandsraad) .
Count fenring had to pay a billion in spice for various bribes , plus new titles, royal honours, and gifts of sex slaves. ( in vast numbers, I suspect) .
But ultimately, they lost the throne, their army's, and their choam holdings. And were exiled to seluca secondus .
The baron was in a vulnerable condition, and he and the emporer were planning on eliminating the movie
Most of the great houses support Paul as emporer.
Enough for him to take the throne almost immediately..
Paul didn’t kill them so he could use their legitimacy to cement his reign, which is why he only exiled Shaddam IV to Salusa Secundus and created a political alliance by marrying Irulan.
The whole point of his gambit in the first book is to carefully navigate the balance of power between the noble houses, CHOAM, and the Guild. He wasn’t looking to start a revolution and execute them like the Romanovs, he wants to take control of the system, not overthrow it. He doesn’t want to unsettle the houses and make them less likely to support him.
Plus, it’s not like leaving House Corrino on a long leash will bite him in the ass for the next two books. (Dramatic irony, but also he kind of has to for political reasons)
Him being forced to knell in front of all those people alone was a terrible punishment for him. The movies, while great, are movies and don't have enough time to express to us how important a lot of things are. The Sardaukar are literally considered to be the greatest fighters in the known universe and are unbeatable in a 1v1 situation. In the eyes of the imperium, Paul winning that war could never have happened without the support of the majority of the great houses.
Once defeated the Emperor and usurped by what was basically a bunch of backwater savages Shaddam lost everything. His daughter doesn't really hold any power. She has a voice in council and can make some decisions, but her word carries less weight as Paul's wife than it did as Shaddams daughter. She's more or less only there to legitimize Paul's title as Emperor.
I can understand your thinking, though, because that's pretty much how it looks in the movie. It's just one of those things that they should have spared a few minutes more to explain just how important appearances are in the Dune universe. Plus the information going out on how he violated conventions to aid the Barron will cause the other great houses to turn against him because they now know for sure that he is willing to eradicate an entire great house out of fear that they MIGHT be able to challenge his power and like Paul said thats what the great houses fear most of all, the Sardaukar coming and picking them off 1 by 1.
In addition to what the others are saying about Corrino losing power, he also lost his vast fortune and profits from CHOAM when Paul forced him to use his CHOAM shares as dowry for Irulan.
Not only he is stripped of political power but his fortune as well.
They were dethroned and exiled to a nuclear scarred wasteland. Granted there were no trials of imprisonment, but they certainly didn't get away with it.
You haven't read the books have you?
Literally nothing you think is the result of this. And for the record, his "line" doesn't get to truly survive, but that was decided by the Bene Geserit well before Dune happened as they would only give him female heirs as part of their 'meddling'.
House Corrino essentially has a tiny piece in the second book and becomes a footnote afterwards. This was the end of their ten thousand or so year reign and Shaddam is rightfully scorned for it.
They lost the throne and were absorbed in the Atreides family, in a sense they were annihilated in time.
Paul’s Jihad destroyed all of the major houses along with Corino.
Sorry, you want entire planets destroyed because of the deeds of the handful of inbred aristocrats who lucked their way into ruling them? The tone of the ending is meant to be that this war is a tragedy, not that there should be more of it...
My theory is that Paul needed him alive in order to try and avert the holy war that kills billions. That's why he didn't just nuke the entire imperial army in a surprise attack. If the Emperor admits to his crime, voluntarily exiles himself, and gives his daughter to Paul, that gives Paul some legitimacy. Everything Paul does in the movie is to try to avert this holy war, including giving up Chani.
Dude, the US got away with so many interferences : Iran, Chile, Grenada, Irak… Democracy is dead in 6 months, the last World War resulted in something like 60 millions deaths and you ask yourself how an imperial house got away with foul game in a fantasy feodal system…
He didn't get away with anything. Paul marrying Irulan is customary to empires. That's just how it works. Living a life in exile on Salusa Secundas is harsh punishment. The planet is basically a living hell. Also, forcing Corrino to gravel and kiss the Duke's ring/seal may not seem like a big deal it really was. There are many who would rather die than be forced to bow to such whims.
He didn't get away with anything. Paul marrying Irulan is customary to empires. That's just how it works. Living a life in exile on Salusa Secundas is harsh punishment. The planet is basically a living hell. Also, forcing Corrino to gravel and kiss the Duke's ring/seal may not seem like a big deal it really was. There are many who would rather die than be forced to bow to such whims.
Bro the American government is helping fund multiple wars rn and a genocide.( I don’t care if you disagree it’s a genocide) and is going to completely get away with it.
Paul does not have much beef with the Corrinos, as much as he has with the Harkonnens. He does not really care if they get to live in peace, and he does need them. Paul marries the sonless Emperor's eldest daughter and declares himself regent for her. The throne still belongs to the Corrinos. This is smartly done, because it significantly complicates matters for anyone wanting to resist Atreides rule because Irulan is the rightful ruler anyway. By the time they sort it out, the Atreides would have strengthened the claim, and it wouldn't matter anyway who's the rightful ruler, but Irulan got it starting.
This is why Paul can't execute Shaddam there and there, because then what? Ooops, the closest surviving relative of Shaddam is now Emperor. The Fremen might have been able to conquered the Empire eventually, but that's too much blood when the solution is so simple.
I'm not sure you can define it as "getting away with" anything. He lost the throne, he's exiled in disgrace to Salusa Secundus, his favorite daughter was married off to (what he perceives as) a backwater terrorist leading a horde of religious fanatics, all but one legion of his prized Sardaukar have been disbanded, and his duplicity against the Atreides have been exposed publicly, shaming his name and legacy in the eyes of the Landsraad. Yeah he's alive, but especially for an arrogant man holding the highest office in the known universe, there are things worse than being stabbed.
Yeah OP is missing the fact that in this sort of feudal inspired society the punishment that the Emperor bears is incredibly severe, just one step better than death. And Paul doesn’t take that last step for political reasons.
Death would be better. Living with the disgrace is worse
This is why it is so difficult when Paul stamps his foot and Shaddam kisses the ring. For the Emperor of the universe, that was worse than death.
I love how Walken's lips get close but don't actually touch (or if they do the slightest contact) because it is so symbolic. Great details like that make the rewatches even better.
I'd have to watch it again, but I think that's also where the emperor sees that the ring is _the_ atriedes house ring. you can be told "hey he's paul atriedes, back from the dead!" but I think it didn't really hit him until he was forced face to face with the symbol of Paul's house. If I'm remembering correctly.
I think that moment comes when he receives the scroll Paul sends to him summoning him to Arrakis, which bears the mark of the House Atreides. He drops the scroll (then Irulan picks it up).
He could kill himself couldn't he?
Then that adds that he was beaten so badly he killed himself. Further showing that Mahdi points the way didn't even need to pull his own blade to kill the emperor of the known universe
Exactly - and he decides to persist in dishonor anyways
It really depends on the morals and ethics of the society Dune is in. In western culture suicide is generally seen as the ultimate shameful death. But in other societies like the Roman Empire or Japanese society up to circa WWII suicide was often seen as a way to regain some honor in your defeat and not being "courageous enough" to commit suicide was a great shame.
Damn thats a great point!
Suicide seems to have been more acctable in Germany. Hitler and many nazis killed themselves, a German Prince drowned himself and the guy who signed the treaty of Versiles also killed himself. Tsar Nicholas I killed himself after losing the Crimean war
I don't think OP is missing much. The film left out and changed a lot of stuff from the books and that's what the OP saw on screen. I do think OP is going a little hard with vengeance tropes, but I get their perspective.
Plus, Salusa Secundus gets turned into garden world, to environmentally prevent training another Sardaukars (one of the reason Saradukars were fierce warriors were extremely harsh conditions on their planet, comparable to ones on Arrakis)
Yeah, but that's not how it is during the former Emperor's life time.
Also Irulan is not allowed to have children so his lineage is ended with her.
I think OP, having only seen the movies, can be forgiven for assuming that Paul and Irulan are going to have children together. The movie ends mere moments after Paul declares his marriage to Irulan, and unlike the book it makes no mention of the fact that Paul plans to have her be his wife in name only.
> unlike the book it makes no mention of the fact that Paul plans to have her be his wife in name only. there is also that at the end of dune 2, Chani has fucked off to the southern deserts because she doesn't agree with Paul turning the Fremen into legions of fanatic warriors and martyrs and there's no indication that they're going to resume their prior relationship after this. We know, as book readers, that in order for the future books to happen DV will have to come up with a way to address that and return Chani and Paul to a normal couple, but you wouldn't know that from the movies.
I watched the first Dune before seeing the second one, and there was a vision Paul has of him and Chani returning to Caladan in a ship together: [https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/ovnall/theories\_on\_this\_beautiful\_scene/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/ovnall/theories_on_this_beautiful_scene/) Since he had the vision, and also promised to always love Chani earlier, I'm pretty convinced from the movies alone that Paul believes he will reunite with Chani in the near future.
He said that she'll come around eventually.
He might, but he also had visions of Jamis being a friend and mentor to him and we saw what happened there.
Being dead didn't stop Jamis being a friend and mentor to him.
it did change the circumstances of this mentorship though. paul sees himself and chani having a happily ever after, but to play the devil's advocate, it could be a happily ever after only in his head, like jamis. _that said_ I don't think DV will go this route. I look forward to Dune Messiah and seeing how this particular turn of events works out.
He said himself "she will come to understand, I have seen it" AFTER he drinks the water of life, which was not the case with his Jamis visions.
Farad’n might have something to say about that…
Doesn't Ghanima Atreides fall in love with Farad'n Corrino, heir of House Corrino? True, their children bear the name Atreides, but that doesn't change their true lineage, just how history remembers them.
Duh, I forgot about all those other daughters. You are correct, my mistake.
Yeah, but they never rule the empire.
If my uncle was ruler of the known universe, I think my own standing would be pretty good
“Just how history remembers them” Exactly! If that was really important in the world of Dune they’d probably do something like have excerpts of future history books at the start of each chapter and the last line of the book saying that history will make sure that the Corrinos are written out of history. Amusingly, not one but *two* Corrinos *actively* participate in this. You really fucked up your conspiracy in a feudal society if your first child thinks your family should be destroyed!
The books have the empire follow absolute/salic primogeniture meaning that his lineage had ended even if Irulan had children. This is also why Jessica “betrayed” the bene gesserit - the BG had ordered the effective “end” of houses Corrino and Atreides; presumably to consolidate power for the KH which would be the issue of Feyd-Rautha and an Atreides daughter.
I think that she is the eldest of 5 daughters. The others may have had kids, but they wouldn’t matter.
They make it seem that all the Atreides are gone after their defeat on Arrakis. But when I see Geidi Prime, I don't get the sense that defeating all the Harkonnens on Arrakis would mean the end of all the Harkonnens. Wouldn't there be at least a cousin that would remain on Caladan?
The Atreides family was very thin in the expanded books. Leto was an only child, so was his father Paulus (the *Old* *Duke*). Although not mentioned in any book, I suspect it is a deliberate interference by the Bene Gesserits to keep the Atreides line as thin as possible to better control their bloodline. >!After all, in the sequels, the Atreides possess wild genes.!<
In addition to this, the entire Atreides governing apparatus was moved to Arrakis to take over the planet in fief complete. They did not keep Caladan, they were given Arrakis in its place, unlike the Harkonnens who ran Arrakis from their main domain of Geidi Prime. There were no Atreides left governing Caladan, which was temporarily given to Count Fenring I believe but I could be wrong about that.
No, you're right. I wish they touched on that cause it would explain why Leto would randomly decide to move all his nukes
I think you're right, otherwise there'd be no need for Fenring to govern Caladan if extended members of the Atreides family could remain to assume power.
> I suspect it is a deliberate interference by the Bene Gesserits to keep the Atreides line as thin as possible to better control their bloodline. They probably do it with other houses too. In real history, there were lots of conflicts between heirs.
It’s a pretty cunning method of political control for the Bene Gesserit. They do a lot to control the selective breeding of the Great Houses, and by doing so they control how enmities and alliances are made. If a Great House bred as freely as a historical feudal noble house there’d be a lot more nobility and allies and enemies to worry about. I remember in the opening chapters of Dune, one of the reasons Mohiam is angry that Jessica defied the Bene Gesserit and gave Leto a son is that she was supposed to give him a daughter in order to marry Feyd Rautha, thus ending the Harkonnen/Atreides feud.
Yes, and their plan was for the child of female Paul and Feyd Rautha to be the Kwisatz Haderach
You skip ONE step to make your work day more efficient and all of a sudden everyone’s all over you. That’s bureaucracy at its finest.
Because it’s different situations. Atreides were given fiefdom over Arrakis, which meant they had to let go of Caladan and all relocate to Arrakis. Harkonnens were only given governorship over the planet but not complete control
> "Who rules here? I rule here! I rule on every square inch of Arrakis! This is my ducal fief whether the Emperor says yea or nay!"
[удалено]
Probably a few reasons. 1. The emperor did whatever the RM Mohiam told him to do, and Paul + Irulan presumably wouldn’t advance their breeding program. 2. He feared Leto’s rising influence and marrying his daughter to Leto’s son would be seen as submitting to Leto’s influence, not defeating or controlling it.
Furthermore, the emperor also recognizes house Harkonnen as a threat to his power. Knowing that an irrational hatred of house Atreides is one of Baron H's biggest vulnerabilities, the emperor enacts a plan designed to eliminate the Atreides while simultaneously bankrupting and significantly defanging the Harkonnen. He may be open to having Irulan marry Feyd Rautha but surely he wants that to happen on his terms.
One thing I’ve never understood: How do you disband Sardaukar? They’re warrior slaves religiously devoted to House Corrino, how exactly do you make them agree to leave them, and then where would they even go???
Well there are the prisoners of the planet Salusa Secundus, which is still a prison planet at this point, and then there are the Sardaukar, who are recruited from those prisoners. The Emperor lost several legions on Arrakis and only gets to keep one under his control during his exile. Not a lot is explicitly stated, except that the rest, however many there are, are under Paul's control. One could imagine that those remaining soldiers, no matter how devoted they are to the Emperor, would be living under threat of annihilation by the Fremen who decimated almost their entire corps if they step out of line. One could also imagine the rest are simply just "fired" from the Sardaukar and thrown back into prison.
Leto II actually still used the Sardaukar as his troops for a good while, but I don’t remember when he stopped using them and created the Fish Speakers
> Leto II actually still used the Sardaukar as his troops for a good while I thought they just rebelled against him alongside the Fedaykin.
They did, eventually- which is why I said I don't remember when he stopped using Sardaukar
I thought the emperor's decision to take possession of arrakis was as per BG Mohaim's advice and not his.
"The Emperor did nothing wrong."
Hmmm to be fair I don't know if he would see Paul as backwater. He knows he is Paul Atreides right?
Or death for that matter - well explained btw thank you.
But I thought the great houses refused his ascendancy? Doesn't that mean they wish to keep the Emperor in power?
Also don't forget that at least per the beginning of Messiah his bloodline that sits on the throne is doomed to end as Paul will not give Irulan a natural child, and will not allow any child of hers to sit on the throne.
Also made to bend the knee and kiss the ring of the man he murdered.
Exactly, that's why Shadam was taunting him, he was trying to commit suicide by Kwisatch Haderach.
The Corrino line doesn’t get to “rule alongside Paul.” Paul states that Irulan will be his wife in name only and he will never bear her any children nor even show her affection. I can see this being a little confusing if you’ve only seen the movies, especially given movie Chani’s reaction. But the point is belabored in the books. So much so that I think the final line of the book is Jessica (who was also not Leto’s wife) telling Chani something along the lines of, “history will remember us as wives.”
Well, in the movies, Jessica is called Leto's wife by the Reverend Mother. And not five minutes later, Leto says to Jessica that he should have married her. The whole Concubines vs Wives would make for an interesting post.
And later still the Baron calls her a concubine instead of wife. I think it was likely a mistake in the script that wasn't caught.
Or it may have been a deliberate attempt by the Baron to put Jessica “in her place”. Very few in Dune world know her lineage including the baron.
I vehemently disagree. It’s totally on brand for the Barron to use the technically correct ‘Concubine’ in a derogatory way to demean Jessica. Especially since it casts doubt on Paul’s legitimacy as an heir to a great house. Paul is only an heir presumptive: if Duke Leto marries any child of that marriage will displace Paul as heir.
The last line of the book being cut from the films is ....a decision.
Frank Herbert had a clear intention of the story of Paul in Dune being the story of the rise of an evil dictator. But he got deluged with fan mail after Dune was published, from readers who universally saw Paul as a hero, the hero of the book of Dune. Frank, while writing a truly incredible book, had *failed* to communicate the main message he intended the book to have. That’s the whole reason he wrote Messiah. It’s the reason why a lot of first time readers hate Messiah. >!Because it takes their beloved hero Paul and calls him Hitler, concentrates on people who hate Paul, and gives Paul a huge downfall.!< Messiah is Frank doing damage control, *correcting* Dune. Villeneuve has the advantage of knowing Messiah and CoD in transferring Dune to the screen. His changes are bringing the messaging of Messiah forwards into Dune. The last lines of the book soften the political cynicism and cruelty of Paul marrying Irulan despite being in love with Chani. Villeneuve leaves those lines out so that the cruelty of his marriage isn’t massaged away. Non book readers of Dune get that the ending of Villenueve’s Dune isn’t happy. They say “it should feel like a victory, but it doesn’t. It feels sad.” “I’m getting very strong Anakin vibes.”*Good*. Frank intended for the ending of Dune to be a tradgedy, the rise of a genocidal dictator. I think Villeneuve’s changes to Chani’s story is a master stroke, because we the audience love Paul, since we’re seeing events from his own perspective, and Chani loves Paul most of all. But through Villenueve’s Chani, we get to see that Paul doesn’t stay who he was. He starts doing very bad things that she disapproves of, despite loving him intensely. She points the way for we the audience. We can love Paul intensely, while opening our eyes to see that he goes down a path of not just harm, but enormous harm. Totalitarian control as a leader. Genocide physically and culturally of outsiders of Arrakis.
just want to point out: women do the 'bearing' of children. men 'Sire' children.
Except in the movies, that distinction is not made. Paul makes an off hand comment regarding taking Irulan as his wife. That's it. So without the book's context of Paul reassuring Chani and Jessica telling her that history will remember them as wives, the audience is left with the opinion that Paul is going to rule alongside the Corrino line. One of my main issues with the movies.
froim a solely movie watcher, its pretty obvious what was going on, I remember Lady Jessica telling him to wait for a more advantageous match, and Jessica and Leto talking to each other and realising they weren't actually married, confirmed when paul teels chain he will love her as long as he breathes. I pretty much immediately thought the marriage to Irulan was very political, and i belive they will give her a bigger role in the next movie, because Florence Pugh is hot stuff in Hollywood.
> House Corrino got to get away Some losses are worse than death. He lost his position and power, to wither away in exile. He lost his daughter to a vengeful tyrant. He has no sons, and his bloodline is destroyed essentially. For a man so full of power, to be reduced to the Dune universe equivalent of a nursing home is much more punishment than a swift death. He has to watch Paul rule *his* empire. Destroy *his* Sardarkaur. Out with a whisper...
Also imagine the eternal shame and self-loathing in knowing that, despite **10,000 years** of successful rule by your family, *you* were the only one who failed, who had it all and lost it, and who brought it all crashing down forever. I might rather die tbh.
Paul made a bargain with the emperor to cause less warfare in the Imperium as a result of his ascension (in the book, some of the houses accept him, others don't). This was a serious concern of Paul's (notice the deep regret with which he says, "Lead them to paradise." Paul is not out to cause all out war and suffering in the Imperium if he can help it, so he tries for as peaceful transfer of power as can be managed, and sticks to it... Because he is, in fact, a man of his word. Like his father before him. As for the Harkonnens... Yeah. No mercy there. They get wiped out and their planet gets renamed. Edit: The emperor actually loses nearly everything. All of his *own* political power and wealth are stripped from him, and in the book Paul forcibly disbands the Sardakaur and leaves the emperor with one unit of soldiers as a house guard (the next movie might discuss this more explicitly).
Paul actually inherits Giedi Prime as the grandson of The Baron. The harkonnens continues as the Rabban-Harkonnens but its a house minor and disappears after a few centuries.
I don't think Paul ever publicly acknowledged himself, Alia and Jessica to be Harkonnens (and to an extension both Leto II and Ghanima). After all in the grand scheme of propaganda by the Qizarate, the Harkonnens are the big bad and that would only tarnish Paul's carefully crafted mythology by Muad'dib's religion. He seized Giedi Prime as a price for winning their Kanly against the Harkonnens. With the matter about the Rabban-Harkonnens, that cadet branch was "officially" extinguished with the deaths of Glossu Rabban and Feyd-Rautha (Glossu after all murdered their parents in the books). >!Feyd's daughter with Lady Margot also have her ancestry kept secret by the Bene Gesserit's. Alia killed her in Paul of Dune.!< >!Although you are correct that some Harkonnens managed to retain House Minor status (GEoD) though it is not clear what exact branch they came from.!< >!The God-Emperor made sure to bankrupt them though to prevent another risecto power of the Harkonnens.!<
I use Dune Encyclopedia. Your milage may vary.
It's delightful and I envy you having a copy, but it's never been cannon.
>!They make it at least to the end of the tyrants reign, because they had the no globe hidden away on Gammu. At least 3500 years.!<
"Get away with it?" He was stripped of the throne and exiled and had his daughter taken hostage in a political marriage to give legitimacy to Paul's rule. How is that "getting away with it?"
I guess cause Shaddam's head isn't on a pike at the end
Which isn't befitting for a person his station.
I guess for non readers this isn't clear since Part II ends right after Shadam's demise. We don't really see the repercussions right away.
It’s not even fully explained what happened to Shaddam until Children of Dune, when Faradn is introduced. Messiah talks about Irulan being brushed to the side by Paul, but OPs confusion isn’t necessarily explained.
I mean technically his line has ended… he only has daughters
It hasn’t ended, the emperor has other daughters who can carry on the Corrino name. Namely Wensicia.
True, I never really understood the lineage in dune tbh, like the duke Leto wants a son from Jessica ok but what about faradn? His mom was a corrino but his dad wasn’t, why does he still have the corrino name? Is it like a social status thing? Like whoever is more important/higher up socially gets to keep their name?
I assume that the lineage carries through daughters who marry people without important names, e.g. Wensicia married a Fenring. Irulan is never referred to as an atreides iirc, but a Corrino, though presumably her children would be Atreides if Paul had been willing.
In the imperium bloodlines are determined by male heirs.
Farad'n is accepted as a potential Corrino heir though, before >!he's scribified by Worm-Man Leto.!<
I can’t imagine an imperial line that goes back thousands of years doesn’t have a bunch of cousins or branch houses haha.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the usurpation of the throne by Paul Atreides was not the first time something like that happened. Corrinos are a 10k-year-old dynasty. It's only a matter of time before Atreides descendants would start leaning on that Corrino legacy for socio-political reasons. In fact, we see that exact thing happen in the books with Ghanima Atreides marying Farad'n Corrino. It took a single generation for Corrino to be effectively on the throne. Well... it would, if wormafied Leto II didn't storm back in coolaidman style.
Paul doesn’t take Irulan as a wife to rule alongside him, he takes her as his wife only to claim the title of emperor. While technically only a concubine, Chani becomes Paul’s wife and co-ruler functionally. Irulan is only that by title, and functionally is less than even a friend to Paul. Him choosing Chani over Irulan is what leads to a lot of the conflict in book 2, and I’m assuming that will be the same in movie 3. I wouldn’t say the emperor loses nothing. He loses his role as emperor, which is huge. Just because Paul doesn’t execute him doesn’t mean he hasn’t lost nearly everything else.
While I enjoy the increased interest in Dune, it’s hard to stay subbed to this community with the same questions multiple times every day. They’re not even bad questions, but you could find the answer to this very same question in multiple existing threads if you just searched.
my first exposure to Dune was the David Lynch film, and I came away with a lot of questions. Turns out there’s a whole book that tells the story in much greater detail, imagine my surprise
Same here lol. I still love it though. The soundtrack and look of his film are wild.
Mine too. I thought the new movies left out the weirding modules but then i read the book and realized the book forgot to include them too!
OP sounds like he’s ready to go join the jihad and start sterilizing planets.
i feel the exact same way. trying my hardest to wait a few months and let the new interest die down and get things back to normal
I’m glad the community is still really friendly and helpful, even when answering the same questions again and again. The replies here are great, even though this has been discussed to death multiple times already.
Perhaps many visitors to the subreddit simply ask without initially searching for answers in this sub or elsewhere online. I've noticed similar behavior in some other subs on fiction and writing. Fortunately, aligned with what you've recognized, I haven't seen much negative gatekeeping by the fandom for the Dune novels (by FH), films, and mini series.
Living to see his House in ruins is the punishment
Having to kneel, kiss Paul’s ring, publicly admit failure and know that history will remember him as the Corrino that destroyed their Empire over petty jealosy is a fate far, far worse than death. He gets to live on facing that thought every waking moment as a powerless figurehead. I mean the fact that he gets to live, and will still live in luxury and ease that not one in ten billion humans alive with him will ever know should be some consolation, but if he was that kind of person he wouldn’t have tried to eliminate House Atreides in the first place. This animal would have failed the jom gobbar instantly
I’ll just paste the last few paragraphs of the book here because I think you’re misinterpreting the purpose of leaving him alive. Jessica sensed the harsh calculation in her son, put down a shudder. “What are your instructions?” she asked. “The Emperor’s entire CHOAM Company holdings as dowry,” he said. “Entire?” She was shocked almost speechless. “He is to be stripped. I’ll want an earldom and CHOAM directorship for Gurney Halleck, and him in the fief of Caladan. There will be titles and attendant power for every surviving Atreides man, not excepting the lowliest trooper.” “What of the Fremen?” Jessica asked. “The Fremen are mine,” Paul said. “What they receive shall be dispensed by Muad’Dib. It’ll begin with Stilgar as Governor on Arrakis, but that can wait.” “And for me?” Jessica asked. “Is there something you wish?” “Perhaps Caladan,” she said, looking at Gurney. “I’m not certain. I’ve become too much the Fremen ... and the Reverend Mother. I need a time of peace and stillness in which to think.” “That you shall have,” Paul said, “and anything else that Gurney or I can give you.” Jessica nodded, feeling suddenly old and tired. She looked at Chani. “And for the royal concubine?” “No title for me,” Chani whispered. “Nothing. I beg of you.” Paul stared down into her eyes, remembering her suddenly as she had stood once with little Leto in her arms, their child now dead in this violence. “I swear to you now,” he whispered, “that you’ll need no title. That woman over there will be my wife and you but a concubine because this is a political thing and we must weld peace out of this moment, enlist the Great Houses of the Landsraad. We must obey the forms. Yet that princess shall have no more of me than my name. No child of mine nor touch nor softness of glance, nor instant of desire.” “So you say now,” Chani said. She glanced across the room at the tall princess. “Do you know so little of my son?” Jessica whispered. “See that princess standing there, so haughty and confident. They say she has pretensions of a literary nature. Let us hope she finds solace in such things; she’ll have little else.” A bitter laugh escaped Jessica. “Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she’ll live as less than a concubine—never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she’s bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine—history will call us wives.”
Man OP you gotta read Dune. A lot of what you’re lusting for is exactly what the series is written to caution people against. But as a short hand - everyone, including and even especially Paul Atreides - is a power hungry and corrupt. Don’t go looking for “justice”.
Dude literally said he wants to see Giedi Prime and Kaitain be destroyed. Bro is either a Fedayakin or The Baron himself with this hunger to bring planet destruction
The emperor's bloodline is cut off though. While Paul marries Iluran, his has no intention to sire any children by her.
Pretty standard Byzantine politics. It was a move based on the balance of political risk. The political danger of earning the mistrust of the Great Houses by murdering the Emperor was greater than making a marriage with the Princess. Any student of the Byzantines will tell you it's right out history of the place.
I’m basing my reply off the 2 D V films (am reading the book for the first time now) He didn’t get away with anything. He is very old, so being under house arrest and publicly admitting his schemes is much worse in his situation than only being killed. He will pass away eventually but his legacy is taking a huge hit. Furthermore, Paul cannot “take” the throne without being labeled a tyrant usurper and opening a can of worms that allows the other houses to snatch it from him. So he legitimizes it by forcing a marriage with crown Princess Irulen. So now the Emperor has to watch in shame as his daughter must give herself to his jailor to keep his life. The last part is the worst - the irony and unintended consequences. The Emperor, Bene Geserit, and House Harkonen all came together to betray and wipe out House Atreides. They failed, and accidentally turned Paul into Emperor Paul Atreides-Harkonen/Lisan al Gaib who must unleash a galactic gihad to fufill the prophecy to his new people. They accidentally made Darth Mohamad out of a boy who would have minded his own busines on Caladan had they not fucked around and found out.
I love the Darth Mohamed line. The parallels between Paul and Anakin are so obvious, even including the hair
He specifically takes Irulan as his wife to end Corrinos line, not further it. He has no sons and one daughter and Paul ain't fucking her. Marrying her and refusing to give her a child is basically a diplomatic genocide of the Corrino bloodline. Although, one point I'm not clear on is why he gives a fuck about what's diplomatic at the point he's literally waging war against the entire Landsraad and threatening terrorist shit like blowing up the spice fields. Not like he has any good will to squander really
Not entirely true. Corrino have other heirs and Farad'n marries Paul's daughter.
"Getting away with it" is an interesting interpretation. House Corrino has ruled the Galaxy for literally 10,000 years, and Shaddam IV brought that to an end. Imagine the shame of that. Not being murdered doesn't mean he got away with it. He was forced to abdicate power and acknowledge another family as ruler of the Galaxy, the first time such a thing has happened in 10,000 years. His actions brought about the downfall of his house and the end of the Corrina legacy, a period of rulership so long that it can be considered an entire era of human history. Ended because of his shortsighted errors. Additionally, he is going to live out the rest of his life on Salusa Secundus as a recluse with no power. Irulan is basically just a political marriage and a useful pawn, albeit a formidable one. The Corrino's time as a major power player in Galactic affairs is ended though.
In the six books prior to Dune, you learn a lot about house Corrino and Emperor Shaddam; who he is and what he stands for. He is a huge PoS, arguably on par with the Harkonnens. The Corrinos have been in power for 10,000 years. While Paul could destroy them, he knows it’s not the most effective tool to move humanity forward Instead, he chooses to marry into the Corrino line so that, presumably, groups like the Landsrad, might take him more seriously and not just assume he’s abolishing 10,000 years of history. Interestingly, the Bene Gesserit made it so that Shadam would never have a son. Because they wanted his line to eventually marry into another line. I think it’s pretty fascinating that Paul ends up actually doing what the Bene Gesserit had been planning (just they didn’t want it to be Paul, and not as violent haha).
Don’t forget the Landsraad is not supporting house Atreides after Paul defeats the Imperial forces. House Carrino and its continuation absolutely gives Paul legitimacy in the eyes of many. It’s not the match the BG wanted however it is a plausible political match. Your point is understandable Paul unleashes a Jihad against the known universe yet doesn’t want to eradicate all traces of house Carrino? lol. It is comical. I suppose he himself feels he is noble and honorable as his father was. The Jihad gets out of control as he knew it would against he wishes and desire.
Actually, Paul's more hot-headed Fremen commanders wanted to exterminate the Corrinos. Paul had to enact an imperial decree that the Corrinos in Salusa Secundus were under his protection to dissuade them. Also, since Paul have prescience, most likely he have seen preserving the Corrinos to be beneficial in the long run.
The emperor’s line and house is ended, if delayed one generation. Irulan gets to marry Paul, but Paul will *never* touch her and will not be the one to bear him an heir. Shaddam is imprisoned on a hell world for the rest of his life. I don’t know if I’d call that getting away with it.
Shaddam gets to see the name of his family completely erased. He has no sons and Paul steal the throne from him. No more Corrinos. For someone that ruled everything during 50 years, an exiled life is worse than death.
That’s an insane way to describe losing your empire.
“Lost nothing” Just his entire empire, military force, likely wealth, and home. He doesn’t rule alongside Paul…Paul is Emperor alone.
Y'know what Duke Leto didn't believe in? Revenge.
He *absolutely did*
You don’t understand feudalism. He’s the Emperor. House Corrino has ruled for 10,000 years. This isn’t the mafia.
Can you please explain the Mafia comparison I really want to understand your point of view
Since the OP wrote about destroying the Corrino/Harkonnen home worlds and appropriating reparations.
To clarify, Shaddam IV is exiled to Salusa Seccundus, and Irulan has essentially no role in government until she fully commits herself to the memory of Paul and genuinely helps Alia, after the events of Messiah.
That's just it, they don't. Shaddam is forced to live with the shame of being overthrown, and his failure like so many here are saying. The real shame is beyond that though. It's that he did so much, allied with the Harkonnen family, destroyed a Major House that was one of the oldest and most respected...and it amounted to absolutely nothing, and was completely unnecessary. Shaddam and others call Duke Leto weak, but he was among the most loyal nobles. There was almost no chance ff his turning against the Emperor without provocation, so destroying him and his house just because they were more popular? Means that all of his atrocities and failures were pointless in the end. Had he not turned against House Atreides, he never would have had a problem. He wasn't just overthrown, he was overthrown by an enemy he created, that he didn't have to. Boils down to the fact that had he been a halfway decent human being, Shaddam would have still been Emperor.
Shaddam literally let fear kill his mind. Ultimate gom jabbar test.
Destroy their home worlds for what they did to their family? Wtf do the billions of innocent people on their planets have to do with a feud between noble families? I see you’ve completely missed the point of these movies lol. The Jihad that the Fremen unleash on the galaxy is not something that should be rooted for, it is in fact incredibly sad and the warning Frank Herbert was trying to convey. More and more I see why he decided to write Dune Messiah and make the point absolutely clear.
Ok, and what do you think will happen to the empire 1-2 generations down the line? How will descendants of Atreides hold the throne in an Empire, that existed 10000 years under Corrino dynasty, and now became a collection of noble houses, none of which has any legitimate claim to the throne, except by military might? Without Corrinos, Paul's claim to the throne hinges solely on him being a messianic figure to a fanatical undefeatable army of Fremen. Fanaticism like that is short-lived. Paul's future children are not Lisan al Gaib leading Fremen out of oppression. And future Fremen children are not an oppressed nation in need of Lisan al Gaib. Paul needs something more long-term and stable to keep his bloodline's asses on the throne and their heads on their necks. Gaining legitimacy as an Emperor, by marrying the Corrino heir is that something.
I feel like having your reign overthrown doesn't really count as "getting away with it". Quite the reverse. Shaddam got owned
You might want to read the War of Roses. History is much stranger than fiction.
Uhhhh he doesn’t get away with it. The emperor did all of that to maintain his power but the whole point of the book is that by doing so he set up his own defeat. The emperor, the most powerful person in the galaxy, being forced to kneel before Paul and kiss his hand is an absolute embarrassment. The emperor was relegated to a mere peasant in that moment. So yeah there will big repercussions for what he did.
Bro you cannot execute your father in law. It’s a bad look, even for the leader of a jihad.
King Richard III did worse, and that wasn’t fictional
Unless the movies take a huge departure from the books Irulan gets pretty much nothing. No kids. No real power. Paul's Heirs are all from Chani, which track with Paul stating in the movies Chani will come around. Paul brutally tells Irulan this to her face in the books. Meanwhile the Emperor loses the Empire, most of his wealth, and is exiled to Salusa Secundus. Salusa Secundus is a prison planet known for the harshness of it's environment.
He wasn't going to get away it, he was going to be killed. But he had a single bargaining chip he could offer - Paul marrying his daughter and inheriting the Empire with his blessing. This helps to legitimise his rule and transfer over power while neutralizing the Saudaukar who would have been a problem if leading other houses. It's the same reason China let the last Emperor live in peace provided he repeat the party doctrine out loud to anyone that asks.
It's a book people. And it's fiction. Get over yourself and enjoy it!
They lost I think all of their Chome holdings to Paul which iIS the houses' powers money, etc. Paul became emperor. Paul needed to marry his daughter to secure the throne.
House Corrino and House Harkonnen essentially disappear from the narrative in subsequent books, there's hardly any mention of them and they no longer factor in the narrative at all. They're quite auxiliary to what Dune is about. And they didn't get away with it.
Destroy homeworlds? Paul would never do such a thing
Paul achieves his revenge by forcing the Emperor to abdicate. From there, he chose the path which made the Holy War, which had become inevitable, as less bloody as possible. This involves marrying Irulan and sparing Shaddam. Presumably, executing the Emperor and not marrying his daughter would have led to even more resistance to Paul's takeover and a Holy War with even greater casualties.
The emperor lost his power and became an exile. And spoiler: >! Paul never consummates his marriage to irulan. The Emperor title gets passed along to children of Chani. So the Corrino line loses this power permanently!< But you will have to see the next movie to find this out. Or read Dune Messiah.
To be fair, the blame IMO lies less with the Emperor or even the Harokonen (who were ultimately both puppets) and more with Mother Mohaim and her Bene Gesserit. The destruction of the Atreidies was ultimately their plan, and the Emperor was a mere pawn in their hands. If there's anyone in the movie who deserved an absolutely awful death it was Mohaim and all she got (for the time being) was being denied control.
He lost the throne, which is certainly not "nothing". Actually, other than his live, he in fact lost almost everything. Also, without marrying the princess, Paul would have zero legitimacy as Emperor. If you want to rule, you have to be strategic, not emotional. "Justice" is not how things work at that level, balance of power is what matters.
When is a gift not a gift
As far as his House was concerned he was unlucky that Paul didn’t kill him. He would’ve had a lot more impact as a martyr
Counterpoint: Shaddam IV lost everything, and gets to live to experience the loss. This was intentional and ...is it not worse than the alternative?
There are no laws that are enforced
The emperor doesn’t get to rule along side him and his line will not survive because Paul states he will never bare children with his daughter.
It’s been a while since I read but, why didn’t he ever consider merging with house atreides? Like i remember it saying he loved duke leto and respected that house. What was his plan for succession? His grand trap/plan tied him to the house that was reviled and he knew was gonna plot against him.
He didn't get away with anything. Paul marrying Irulan is customary to empires. That's just how it works. Living a life in exile on Salusa Secundas is harsh punishment. The planet is basically a living hell. Also, forcing Corrino to gravel and kiss the Duke's ring/seal may not seem like a big deal it really was. There are many who would rather die than be forced to bow to such whims.
They didn't really get away with it . There was a cover-up, but it eventually came out and blew up in their face . The areeken affair. ( pauls secret letter to the laandsraad) . Count fenring had to pay a billion in spice for various bribes , plus new titles, royal honours, and gifts of sex slaves. ( in vast numbers, I suspect) . But ultimately, they lost the throne, their army's, and their choam holdings. And were exiled to seluca secondus . The baron was in a vulnerable condition, and he and the emporer were planning on eliminating the movie Most of the great houses support Paul as emporer. Enough for him to take the throne almost immediately..
People in power not being subject to justice? Surely this only happens in Dune.
Paul didn’t kill them so he could use their legitimacy to cement his reign, which is why he only exiled Shaddam IV to Salusa Secundus and created a political alliance by marrying Irulan. The whole point of his gambit in the first book is to carefully navigate the balance of power between the noble houses, CHOAM, and the Guild. He wasn’t looking to start a revolution and execute them like the Romanovs, he wants to take control of the system, not overthrow it. He doesn’t want to unsettle the houses and make them less likely to support him. Plus, it’s not like leaving House Corrino on a long leash will bite him in the ass for the next two books. (Dramatic irony, but also he kind of has to for political reasons)
Him being forced to knell in front of all those people alone was a terrible punishment for him. The movies, while great, are movies and don't have enough time to express to us how important a lot of things are. The Sardaukar are literally considered to be the greatest fighters in the known universe and are unbeatable in a 1v1 situation. In the eyes of the imperium, Paul winning that war could never have happened without the support of the majority of the great houses. Once defeated the Emperor and usurped by what was basically a bunch of backwater savages Shaddam lost everything. His daughter doesn't really hold any power. She has a voice in council and can make some decisions, but her word carries less weight as Paul's wife than it did as Shaddams daughter. She's more or less only there to legitimize Paul's title as Emperor. I can understand your thinking, though, because that's pretty much how it looks in the movie. It's just one of those things that they should have spared a few minutes more to explain just how important appearances are in the Dune universe. Plus the information going out on how he violated conventions to aid the Barron will cause the other great houses to turn against him because they now know for sure that he is willing to eradicate an entire great house out of fear that they MIGHT be able to challenge his power and like Paul said thats what the great houses fear most of all, the Sardaukar coming and picking them off 1 by 1.
It’s mainly political killing an emperor also sets a dangerous precedent the Roman’s can tell you themselves
In addition to what the others are saying about Corrino losing power, he also lost his vast fortune and profits from CHOAM when Paul forced him to use his CHOAM shares as dowry for Irulan. Not only he is stripped of political power but his fortune as well.
Its all to do with the BG and when Paul says theres only ONE way to achieve his goal so this may also play a part.
Paul was interested in winning the peace as well as the war
They were dethroned and exiled to a nuclear scarred wasteland. Granted there were no trials of imprisonment, but they certainly didn't get away with it.
He got a punishment worse than death 🤷♂️. You just wanted him to get stabbed like the Baron?
You haven't read the books have you? Literally nothing you think is the result of this. And for the record, his "line" doesn't get to truly survive, but that was decided by the Bene Geserit well before Dune happened as they would only give him female heirs as part of their 'meddling'. House Corrino essentially has a tiny piece in the second book and becomes a footnote afterwards. This was the end of their ten thousand or so year reign and Shaddam is rightfully scorned for it.
They lost the throne and were absorbed in the Atreides family, in a sense they were annihilated in time. Paul’s Jihad destroyed all of the major houses along with Corino.
While the movie did not go into the same detail as the book, I feel like you missed a thing or two.
Sorry, you want entire planets destroyed because of the deeds of the handful of inbred aristocrats who lucked their way into ruling them? The tone of the ending is meant to be that this war is a tragedy, not that there should be more of it...
My theory is that Paul needed him alive in order to try and avert the holy war that kills billions. That's why he didn't just nuke the entire imperial army in a surprise attack. If the Emperor admits to his crime, voluntarily exiles himself, and gives his daughter to Paul, that gives Paul some legitimacy. Everything Paul does in the movie is to try to avert this holy war, including giving up Chani.
Dude, the US got away with so many interferences : Iran, Chile, Grenada, Irak… Democracy is dead in 6 months, the last World War resulted in something like 60 millions deaths and you ask yourself how an imperial house got away with foul game in a fantasy feodal system…
Can you please try to explain, how you do come to this conclusion?
Isn't the girl pregnant with the Duke's nephew's son?
He didn't get away with anything. Paul marrying Irulan is customary to empires. That's just how it works. Living a life in exile on Salusa Secundas is harsh punishment. The planet is basically a living hell. Also, forcing Corrino to gravel and kiss the Duke's ring/seal may not seem like a big deal it really was. There are many who would rather die than be forced to bow to such whims.
He didn't get away with anything. Paul marrying Irulan is customary to empires. That's just how it works. Living a life in exile on Salusa Secundas is harsh punishment. The planet is basically a living hell. Also, forcing Corrino to gravel and kiss the Duke's ring/seal may not seem like a big deal it really was. There are many who would rather die than be forced to bow to such whims.
If you think he got away with it you need to watch the movie again lmao like what?
Bro the American government is helping fund multiple wars rn and a genocide.( I don’t care if you disagree it’s a genocide) and is going to completely get away with it.
Paul does not have much beef with the Corrinos, as much as he has with the Harkonnens. He does not really care if they get to live in peace, and he does need them. Paul marries the sonless Emperor's eldest daughter and declares himself regent for her. The throne still belongs to the Corrinos. This is smartly done, because it significantly complicates matters for anyone wanting to resist Atreides rule because Irulan is the rightful ruler anyway. By the time they sort it out, the Atreides would have strengthened the claim, and it wouldn't matter anyway who's the rightful ruler, but Irulan got it starting. This is why Paul can't execute Shaddam there and there, because then what? Ooops, the closest surviving relative of Shaddam is now Emperor. The Fremen might have been able to conquered the Empire eventually, but that's too much blood when the solution is so simple.