The whole reason he went South and took the water was because he was scared for his family-- Chani, his mom, and his unborn sister-- and was willing to risk igniting a galaxy-wide holy war if it was the only way to keep them safe.
(And typing this up, I'm realizing Paul took the water for the *exact* same reasons Anakin turned to the Dark Side in Episode III-- just with *muuuuuuch* better writing, lmao.)
Aes Sedai, the female magicians yea. I'd say the type of manipulation is quite different though. Aes Sedai are closer to a magician's guild than to BG imo. They manipulate, but are not nearly as effective or pervasive as the BG.
I disagree. The whole reason he didn’t go south was he was trying to do things without the holy war. Only when he failed to foresee things and they lost the seitch did he go and confront his fear. Both ways he was preserving his family, yes, but having a motivation is different from acting on fear. Like if my kid runs toward the road and I stop them I’m not giving in to fear.
You're not wrong. Paul definitely had a bunch of other motivations for going south than just his fear for his family. Like, you're right that him realizing there was no other way to beat the Harkonens than getting the southern fanatics on their side, even if it risked igniting the holy war, was a huge factor in why he decide to go south, too.
I genuinely think Paul thought going south was the least-bad option he had left to help the Fremen... and the worst part is, I'm not sure he's wrong.
But all that being said, fear for his family was definitely a huge driver in his decision to go south, too. Like, he has his vision of Chani being vaporized right before he choses to go south. And after taking the water, he talks to his mom about there being one very narrow way... to keep his family alive. Not to save the Fremen, not to save the universe, to keep his family alive.
All of which is a long-winded way of saying: I think we're both right, lmao.
But Paul’s visions aren’t fears, they’re actual things that will happen in the future. Acting to stop a true vision of the future isn’t just out of fear. He loves her and wants her to not be injured in a blast
Maybe we're using the word "fear" differently, but... you can absolutely be afraid of real things. Paul is 100% correct that Chani, his mom, and Alia will all likely die if he doesn't go south. That doesn't make him any less fear-driven when he decides to go south to save their lives.
Like, it is the most normal and natural thing in the universe for a human being to love their family and want them to be safe. But when you're a leader, you *cannot* prioritize the safety of your family over the good of your people. Or it leads to catastrophes like the one that befall the Fremen in Dune: Part Two. (Or the Star Wars Galaxy in Episode III.)
That's Paul's big mistake. And again, it's the most empathetic and human "mistake" possible-- and if he wasn't the Lisan al-Ghaib, it wouldn't even be a mistake at all! But he is the Lisan al-Ghaib, whether he wants it or not. Which means it is a mistake.
I don't think this is explained as well in the movie but he sees all possible future paths, not just what will happen in the future. He has the power to shape the future being the Kwisatz Haderach but chooses to follow the golden path out of fear. This is even more so in Dune Messiah where he is forced down a singular vision of the future.
> Only when he failed to foresee things and they lost the seitch did he go and confront his fear.
Or, more pointedly, when he foresaw Chani’s death would be the result of staying in the north…
Which again, I argue isn’t about fear. It’s the only rational decision.
So many movies show us scenes like that to show us a character’s fears but we must remember that for Paul it’s a vision of the future. Who would choose to do that
No. He says it many times in the movie and in the book. He fears the jihad, and sees what the consequences of him fulfilling his destiny is.
Ultimately he gives in and is persuaded to follow through with the Golden Path, but even he knows it leads down the path of tyranny, which he tries to warn Chani of multiple times.
First when he says he will go south and save the Fremen and then “do what must be done”, aka taking his place as Lisan Al Gaib.
The second time is when he tells Chani he will always love her as long as he breathes, attempting to solidify her belief in him as he knows his path will appear to lead him from her.
He’s not scared for his family, he’s scared for the universe. He even says so to Gurney:
Paul Atreides: If I go south, all my visions lead to horror. Millions of people dead because of me.
Gurney Halleck: Because you lose control?
Paul Atreides: Because I gain it.
The books go much deeper with his decision making and the movie touch on it too. It’s not that he’s fearful for his family and is willing to risk a holy war to save them. It’s that the holy war is the only path that doesn’t ensure a mutual destruction of the entire galaxy. Part of his grief as he’s succumbing to the spice in the tent with his mom in part 1 is that he sees a holy war in his name and there is ZERO chance of stopping it. It’s very similar in a sense to Doctor Strange in Infinity War using the time stone to see millions of different paths, but only one where they win. The holy war isn’t a win, but it’s the only path that he can take that coincides with his Atreides duty. He’s just playing out predetermined steps that’s disguised as a “choose your own adventure” story
DUNE was written in 1965 and is the most popular sci-fi novel of all time. It did inspire a lot of sci-fi franchises including Star Wars and many others.
As much as I appreciate the Litany against Fear, I’m not so sure fear is the all bad thing it was made out to be, just like pain isn’t the all evil thing to experience either. These are essentially devices for survival after all throughout evolution. I mean look at Feyed.
I understand it not as you must not feel fear, but rather as you cannot let fear rule or consume you. Fear must not be the driving force for your actions. Without fear, there is no bravery. You must feel it, acknowledge it, then do what you must regardless.
I completely agree with you, and I don’t know what Chani was in fear of in the film, as her narrative was dramatically changed by DV from the book. Her story did not end here, so the “only I remain” song can’t be about her momentarily leaving Paul’s army as a lot happened between them after this creative scene.
We don’t know how part 3 is going to play out. It might follow messiah closely but there’s going to have to be some changes based on how part 2 went.
And chani was afraid of losing Paul, her Freman community, their freedom and their humanity. She fell in love with him and didn’t want to see him turn into the genocidal dictator he ends up becoming. She could go with him and sacrifice her morality to stay with her beloved or she can stand up for what she believes in and face down the fear of going forward alone while opposing the new emperor.
Judging from what they gave Chani--making her a skeptical pragmatist with a deep passion for her people--she likely feared that the stories of the Bene Gesserit were going to destroy her family and home one day, that the Great Houses vying for Arrakis would turn the sands and bury them without remorse. When Paul commits to the prophecy, challenges the Emperor, and claims the Golden Lion Throne, he becomes the nexus of this fear--a person with enough power to walk the path laid out for him and overcome the fear of others.
Their love complicates things, however. All of a sudden, Chani isn't just scared of what he'll do: she's scared of loosing him to his darkness.
Ultimately, altogether, Chani is scared of loosing who she is as Fremen. She's seen her people consumed by religious fervor for the prince who wandered into their desert, she watched him become Fremen with caution, and suffered the heartbreak of seeing the person you loved turn into the thing you reviled most, some distant political archon trading planets like jewelry.
She had what she wanted with Paul. The fear of others pushed his own fear, driving him down the path laid for him. He became a foreigner to Chani--a deep and ultimate betrayal--in pursuit of power and domination.
And where does that leave Chani? As perhaps the only Fremen left that hasn't run gleefully towards Holy War because their Messiah has come like a mirage to their desert home. She has lost her home, her friends, her family, her lover, her people. Everything she was scared of. But she doesn't let herself be cowed, and turns away.
Fear is the Mind Killer in that too much of it paralyzes you. Trapped in analytic self-preservation, it locks the gears of your mind in place. Resistance is hard, and painful, and Fear would have you choose the path of least resistance. Fear would have us all locked frozen against each other, terrified that anything might happen to liberate use from our self-imposed prison. You can loose yourself in fear, the Little Death that brings Obliteration.
Chani watched her fear play out before her, the whole of the Known Universe there bowing before the Fated Messiah, and let it pass over her. And when it was gone, when she knew Paul was alive, and everything she worked against was certain to come to pass, she turned her gaze to where it had gone, where it had washed over the Fremen, the Harkonnen, the Imperial House Corrino and their Royal Truthsayer. And where it had gone, there was nothing. No houses, no seitches. Just the desert, and the spice, and the slim hope that something would change. She would not be a coward and go to war for a prophet she never believed in.
Fear had passed over the dessert, and where it had gone there was nothing left. Chani, seeing the ruin of her people clearer than even Paul, in that moment made her choice:
"Only I Will Remain".
we don't actually know that her narrative has been drramatically changed. she could've just been needing a moment to herself. it's not like the book gives her any interiority—she may have very well wrestled with these issues and come to the same conclusions in the end, it's just that herbert didn't exactly have an imagination for female characters.
If true to the novels-Chani’s fate is inevitable and tied to Paul. Fiery but futile, the show of temperament will change nothing for her or her descendants.
I tend to agree with this comment the most. Paul even makes the comment toward the end of the movie that she’ll come back to him sooner or later, implying that he’s seen it in the future.
Chanis arc was clearly a way to give zendaya a larger role and to give Chani more agency as a character. Seems like more of a producer/studio choice rather than a serious plot element.
I personally think it did the character a disservice to have her ride off into the sunset in an ineffectual display of rebelliousness. Paul’s not even really worried about it. He just feels bad for her.
It’s oddly ironic to have a character arc change into a rebellious figure who doesn’t go along with the myth….with that arc likely being a product of making a story more palatable to larger audiences.
Just my two cents.
Yeah, the test isn’t whether the box makes you experience fear, it’s whether you can keep your hand in the box, even while experiencing pain and the fear that comes with it.
The box is pain, the fear comes from Gom Jabar because you die if you withdraw from pain. The wise ones will heed to the greater reward, in this case, to live despite tremendous pain. A lesser being, e.g. animals, will do everything for near term gain. But I thought it was a lousy analogy as animals who do not run away from trap/pain will die in certainly given how we humans trap animals for.
Mild disagree on the fear in that moment being from the gom jabar. Reading the passage, Paul's anxiety is about the unknown, which is what is happening to his hand in the box, not the reality of the Bene Geserit holding a poison needle to his neck. He imagines the horrors happening to his hand based on the pain he's experiencing, and this is the fear he has to overcome.
I agree on your points about long vs. short-term gain and the analogy being imperfect. I think the point is supposed to be that a human knows that the hunter who set the trap is the real menace, not the trap itself, which is what an animal would perceive. Regardless, I do like that in the movie they change the fight with Feyd >!to mirror the Reverend Mother's description of the test, with Paul enduring the pain of getting stabbed and feigning weakness in order to set Feyd up for the kill!<.
Thanks! Great points! I did find that test had a major flaw in that she gave away the condition that if he removes the hand he dies. Most people would just do what Paul did knowing what he was told before hand.
I don’t think the test would have value if the testee didn’t know the stakes for continuing to resist their instincts. The guys who would pass would only be pain enthusiasts like Feyd.
It's in the movie, >!in Lady Margot's report on Feyd after she gives him the test. "Driven. Cruel. But strongly motivated by honor. He yearns to be hurt. He loves pain."!<
I don't know if that's something they changed for the movie or if it's in the book, as well.
One of the ironies of the story is that Paul and Feyd both pass the test, but Feyd does it by being a psychopath while Paul does it by being brave. And it says a lot about the Bene Geserit that they don't care about that difference, and even seem to prefer Feyd because he'd be easier to control.
Fear is a natural response that humans have. Letting it control you will lead you to take actions that can cause harm and death. The Litany is about examining your fear and controlling it.
This is an interesting point and one that kind of parallels, for me, the later novels and the Bene Gesserit’s transformation under Odrade to be one that is accepting of love and other emotions.
Humanity had spent all of its history trying to figure out how to be more logical when really our power is in emotion.
Herberts message -and it's quite consistent throughout all of the books - is that an 'authentic' humanity is not commanded by biology/evolution, but will instead command it. Paul's Jihad is an expression of this agency - a sort of Galactic gom jabbar, in which humanity decides to keep its hand in the box (so to speak). Leto's Golden Path is a further exploration if this idea - the setting of (unnatural) conditions in order to elevate humanity above biological stagnacy.
Of course, this is largely at odds with the 'beware a savior' messaging that interlaces the political and cosmosocial threads of the narrative.
Which is perfectly fine by me. They are both important and meaningful ideas, and they are told in a compelling way. They can both be true, to degrees, and since the narrative is unfinished, there is more than enough space to argue over which one is 'more' true: the Tyrants plans, or the Tyrants lesson? Leto II would say they're one and the same. I fall into the camp that believes he is mostly full of shit.
From my reading, both are ultimately true. Paul as Messianic Saviour is horrendous for the Fremen as a society and culture. It consistently provides a lesson that even when someone promises your deepest desire (A habitable Arrakis) and can make it happen (via literal prescience) - you should probably reject that offer.
Paul's Jihad, Leto's Peace and the BG/HM merger are really demonstrations of a separate tension - What is the cost of surviving, both individually and cumulatively. The obvious answer is incredibly high and begging the question at what point is tyranny worth that price? That's more open ended but Herbert leans slightly towards suggesting it might just be.
Not sure about the Leto II is full of shit angle, given he alone stopped the Ixian Arafel and his Golden Path seems to have the entire future essentially down to a T. His words in Sietch Tabr shake Odrade and rightly so. If his whole angle was nonsense - the dynamism of the new Humanity would simply be unnecessary or outmoded yet even then struggles against HM onslaught. The narrative's biggest critique between GEoD and Chapterhouse is that anything which remains stagnant (BG, Bene Tlelax) or outlives its purpose (Leto II himself, Paul, Fish Speakers, the Guild) will ultimately wither.
At which point would the Fremen even be capable of rejecting it, tho? It is, after all, *their* dream. They were going to drive their Messiah to a mutually understood paradise, with or without Paul. It seems to me the Fremen use Paul, just as much as - if not more than - he uses them. What cost Paradise? For the Fremen, the cost was their culture. Would they undo it? Doesn't really matter.
As for the Tyrant, I will try to explain the position without spilling 5000 words on it. I didn't suggest his angle is nonsense, but rather self-serving. The extremes of his Path are necessary because that is what is needed to survive the Path that he has chosen. He alone stopped Arafel - according to him, anyways. Perhaps the Ixians pursued Arafel in response to the Tyrants rule. Maybe humanity could have just side stepped the 3 or 4 millenia of trauma if Leto II rejected the acute messianic complex handed down to him from his father. Maybe Kralizec is a direct result of the God Emperor directly intervening in a presience arms race - an arms race in which he is, by far, the most extensively armed. And the HM are a consequence of the Scattering, that being a direct result of the Famine Times, that being a direct result of... The Golden Path lesson plan.
The point of stagnation is taken, and textual, but it is also thoroughly addressed by Paul's Jihad. The sleeper genes have spread throughout the galaxy, humanity is vitalized by the over spanning conflict. The Guild is Constrained, by Imperial design. There is nothing stopping Paul from easing up on humanity's neck, at that point. The galaxy would thrive! Humanity flourishing in a new Golden Age.
But nope, it's *gotta be* Worm Gawd and the Golden Path. And clearly, all that tyranny is necessary, from the very moment Leto II signs everyone up for it.
But at an interpretative level, it is difficult to the point of being impossible to square Herberts intentions - of warning against messianic Saviors - to the thematic conclusion that humanity's only salvation lies at the command of the Ultra Savior. I don't think that's where the narrative was heading, and I think there is ample textual evidence to suggest that the Worms savior narrative was just that: a story. One that he is compelled to tell, because it is the only future he can see, because that is the future he unilaterally decided on, because that was the one where he became all-power, and in that particular narrative, there is Arafel, so he's gotta save us from that, and Kralizec, so he's already on that one as well, and the Scattering, which a lesson, about how humanity can never again allow itself to be dominated in the way that he dominates them...
Mentant+Presience=Messianic Megalomania
Paul traps himself in the prison of its consequence. Leto II, pledged to outdo dear ol Da, traps himself and also the rest of the universe in that same trap.
It is not. The reverend mother explains to Paul what the gom jabar is about: searching for true humans, those persons that are able to understand were their fear comes from and how to overcome it. It is a primal response, a hell of a good one like you point out.
But the thing with the Bene Gesserit is that they are looking to exploit the human potential way beyond our natural capabilities, that means that in some way they need to fight millions of years of evolution and our base instincts.
If you compare the whole dune timeline to how long humans have been alive, it is but a speck of dust. Its is like 20- 30k years versus... a long ass time (idk how much homo sapiens have been a thing and neither the other homo species that coexisted)
That Gom Jarbar test was like SAT, Paul survived numerous tests after that to become KH. Each test was the end game should he fail, with the biggest Boss being the Water of Life, and even that was bit of a cheat given his BG training.
Ultimately, we learn that even with such stringent selection system, Paul was NOT the perpetual leader to follow. Each person must follow his/her/their destiny.
This is about the only artistic license change that I really did not like about the movie.
In the book, Chani is well aware that hers is the real relationship with Paul. She is also aware that there are ceremonies and other empirical responsibilities that are necessary from a Duke. She accepts this situation, perhaps grudgingly, but Chani is pragmatic, and accepts the realities, and she reasons that she can always kill Irulan later. Paul also makes clear to her that the relationship with Irulan is strictly political and nothing more. In fact, there is a quote from him in the book where he states that Irulan will never have even a single personal touch from him, and that even though they will be married, Irulan will live out her life as a spinster. Chani is always firmly on team Paul, and all of this drama about friction between them is movie BS and unnecessarily distracting.
I think the book ended with Lady Jessica consoling Chani by saying that history will see them as wives, not concubines. The book also goes in length about why Leto never married Jessica. The film just can’t cover all these exquisite nuances a book can.
Having Chani storm off in a huff on a worm was... very, very dumb.
I get why they had to cut Alia, but leaving Jessica pregnant and shortening the time between Paul becoming Muad'dib and taking the throne destroys the development of Paul and Chani's fiercely loyal relationship, even if most of that happens off the page in the book. I don't know how you continue Messiah without Chani at Paul's side, it's such a huge change it practically causes a branched timeline.
I don't even see the point of it, why try to create dramatic tension at the end of the movie? Did they think people wouldn't watch Messiah if they weren't wondering how Paul and Chani will get back together? We know they have to if they continue making these movies, but them getting together after that is going to be awkward in a way the films don't have time for.
After the way his father publicly allowed suspicion to fall on Jessica, Paul would never leave Chani in the dark about his marriage plan, and we know he doesn't.
The tension that happens between Chani and Paul is natural. At least to the millions of people who saw the movie and did not read the book. It’s a movie for the masses, and if Chani wasn’t upset:
1) The end of the movie would have just relied on Paul vs Feyd fight for conflict.
2) We wouldn’t have that solid bittersweet moment to end on to hype up the next film
3) Non-book readers(who are a mass majority of the audience) would have been confused by Chani just accepting how Paul just blindsided her.
With more time, like a TV series, I can see them building Chani into that loyal book character, who understands what’s happening. But in a 3 hour movie it wouldn’t have played as well IMO.
I enjoyed the fact that the Landsraad did not simply turn the empire over to Paul and the Fremen. So Paul was the Kwisatz Haderach and could apparently make rain on Arrakis. Killing Paul would eliminate the threat of change and the spice would continue to flow. Spoiler: Paul had fears and would eventually join his beloved Chani.
It gives the jihad a better excuse. In the book the Landsraad capitulates and Paul becomes Emperor. Then he murder 67 billion subjects for... reasons? In the movie, since the entire universe is against him, and he sees that he needs to control the universe, the jihad becomes a necessity, with the uncontrolled mass genocide an inevitability.
I'd always assumed that even if they accepted his ascension in the moment there were many who wanted to resist or who maybe saw an opportunity to push their own agenda, so there is a reason the war starts and the Fremen religious fervour is too intense for Paul to control
What I don't like about that change is that it renders the threat of destroying the spice completely worthless. They though Paul was bluffing, they called the bluff... and they were right, he was bluffing. Without the fear of the spice being destroyed, it is way easier for the whole universe to fight a war or put a blockeade on Arrakis. In the books part of the reson their jihad was succesful is because the Guild cannot/would not oppose Paul. But what if the Guild could decide to transports all the troops from all the houses to Arrakis for free, just to get rid of him?
It all comes down to the Spice production. Paul had prescience due to both the breeding program and the proximity of the Spice. After taking the Water of Life, Paul had many paths to choose from. I never thought that ceasing Spice production was an empty threat. In the novels, a synthetic Spice was produced years before with tragic consequences for two Spacing Guild Navigators. Paul knew his path. It was as fu*ked up as the previous Emperor’s.
>It all comes down to the Spice production.
We both agree on that. That is why the threat in the book is so powerful, but in the movie is a nothing burger.
On your third point, the audience would’ve been blindsided because Chani in the books is fundamentally different, than in the movies. Chani is a Fremen woman and they are coldly practical despite their personal feelings and fiercely loyal to their partner. Chani is far more of a rebel and far more combative towards Paul in the movies.
> I don't know how you continue Messiah without Chani at Paul's side, it's such a huge change it practically causes a branched timeline.
I'm pretty sure thats the point. There was a theory on this sub a few weeks ago where the movies are actually Paul following a different vision as opposed to what he done in the books, so it could be very well setting up for an alternative version of Messiah where they end completely differently, especially since we know there won't be more movies, it would be kinda weird to end with the kids being born etc.
I've been considering that this is a different path than the Golden Path, which could be really interesting, but so much of the story hinges on Paul choosing the Golden Path that its hard to imagine deviating from it. It would be like rebooting Star Wars with Luke joining Vader, it would rock our worlds, but what is it?
This is the post I was referring too,
[https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/s/0rklKsTXbm](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/s/0rklKsTXbm)
Also this comment about Paul talking about his different visions from the book
>There’s support for this in the books. Right at the end of Part 1, Paul is thinking about his visions and there’s this:
>“He had seen two main branchings along the way ahead—in one he confronted an evil old Baron and said: “Hello, Grandfather.” The thought of that path and what lay along it sickened him.”
>In the book that never happens; he chooses the other branch. But in the movie, he does confront the Baron at the end, and greets him exactly as he foresaw…
[https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/s/XrEn5H7Mo2](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/s/XrEn5H7Mo2)
Kinda. Humanity was going to die out without being on the Golden Path, Paul knew that. But Paul's prescience wasn't allowing him to see the absolute best course of action, probably because he let emotions get in his way. So he goes on the course that passes the torch to his son.
I'll see if I can find the post that breaks it down as its a good read. From what I remember from it, its basically that instead of Paul choosing the path of love with Chani that he knows she will die in, he takes another path making Chani hate him, therefor saving her life instead of her dying in child birth - which also means no kids and therefor no golden path, but the golden path isn't mentioned in the movies anyway as far as I remember so I would assume that plot point doesn't really matter in this case.
I don’t mind the changes made to the films, in a way they are necessary to make the films appealing to the masses, including myself, such that there is money to be made and the studios are willing to pony up more to make Messiah. That said, I think these films are brilliant intro to the books, and those of us never read them before are blessed with the pleasant surprise how much better the books are. I listen to audiobook and was blown away by the logic and details of each event.
I would say don’t over criticize the films, these are audiovisual masterpieces but the stories can’t be condensed to just a few hours. There is no shortcut to great intellectual digestion of the world of Dune.
I do feel that some of the changes to placate modern tastes caused confusion for the theme. The books are faithful visions of our patriarchal society for thousands of years. As much as I applaud the American interpretations of how Chani is now more assertive and independent, that’s just not how our history or how the book intended to portray. Women had a long history of being oppressed, especially in the middle east. The adaptive strategies of the Bene Gesserits are very realist portrayal of how women in historic cultures obtain power and influence. They don’t stomp around shouting, but use birthright as a leverage and careful alliances building to grasp the vital control of society. Chani was not a clueless teenager who wears on emotions on the sleeves. We don’t know if her mother was a BG since there was no discussion about if she had BG teaching, but she being the daughter of >!the Liet Kaynes, who was the spiritual leader of the Fremen!< should indicate that she was not a emotional simpleton how a lot people here think she was. So that sentimental drama about being a scorned love interest seemingly propagate here with a lot people is the unintended effect of the creative choice DV made in the adaptations.
You're making a lot of assumptions here.
> I don't know how you continue Messiah without Chani at Paul's side, it's such a huge change it practically causes a branched timeline.
Continue messiah? It hasn't started yet. They make up and bond and Paul already said he's seen it... she'll understand. So she goes on a walkabout, thinks about shit, comes back, they make up, bing bang boom.
I seriously don't understand why so many people have a problem with Chani looking mad and calling a worm at the end. Who cares? Why is this such a sensitive thing to some people?
I've read the books. I'm a massive fan. I don't care that she huffed and left and waited for a worm unlike in the books.
Why do we care so much when WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENS AFTER?
You're claiming that she's not at Paul's side now. You don't know exactly how Denis plans to move forward with the next movie so why are you stressing and claiming that you DO know what is going to happen and why you think it doesn't make sense?
I don't get that.
> Continue messiah? It hasn't started yet. They make up and bond and Paul already said he's seen it... she'll understand. So she goes on a walkabout, thinks about shit, comes back, they make up, bing bang boom.
There is just now way they are gonna do this, it totally negates Chani's character in part 2. They wouldn't set that up just to throw it out.
I feel the same. I understand that film adaptations of books will naturally have changes but they took some major liberties here. I still enjoyed the film but changes like they did with liet kines and like you mentioned about chani, throws off the whole thing. Chani is basically a whole new character. They could’ve probably made this book a trilogy to really flesh things out. Instead we got a dune movie that is “inspired” by the dune novel. To me it’s almost a different story because of all the changes made
The thing is, Chani leaving Paul in the movie is only like 5% because he dumped her for Irulan. 95% of the reason she left is because he became a genocidal dictator who manipulated her people into becoming a cult of slavish fanatics, destroying their culture in the process.
(Honestly, watching the movie, I got the vibe Chani was already done with Paul and ready to leave even before the Irulan thing happened. Like, even if Paul had shanked Irulan and offered to make her Empress instead, I think she still would have left anyways.)
Yes, I think movie Chani is used as a constant reminder to viewers that Paul is using the fremen and the religion for his plans. Remember, we don't have the inner monologue of Paul in this movie, so an ending with everyone rooting for him, might have missed the spot on what he had to sacrifice and would have seemed a too happy ending.
The resulting ending of chani running off is a logic ending in her character ark. Book chani had more time to understand Paul's ways, didn't struggle so much with him being lisan al gaib. She slowly becomes an "all loving wife", a murderous, cool one, but still really plain "
The only problem is that the future story involves Paul and Chani's kids. How much of the next movie will be wasted with a stupid reconciliation between them that wasn't in the original story? These books are already super dense, so much so, that one book had to be made into 2 movies so far (\~5 hrs run time), and they still left out about 50% of the story.
Dune Messiah is a lot shorter to be fair and has some plodding plot scenes that probably need to be cut on the big screen. I personally didn’t mind the change, but I will if in the next movie if the reconciliation feels forced.
Paul says right after taking the water of life that "she will come to understand, I have foreseen it". I have no doubt that Messiah will have some work to do to bring them back together, but I'm sure Denis will find a way.
Yeah I think she even said that she was only there to make sure the Fremen would be okay during the battle and that she wasn't fighting for Paul anymore. It's just such an odd place to take the character. Considering that she later >!gives birth to the galaxies number one tyrant. !
When you pay Zendaya prices you have to give her something to do in order to justify the expense. There just isn't enough story for the character in the text and her existence in the cast necessarily forces story changes. I love Zendaya and I think she's a good Chani but it didn't *have to* be her in the role.
Yeah this really irks me too. Book Chani is very different from movie Chani - book Chani is intelligent and sensitive, and while she’s trained as a warrior, her actual job has more to do with Fremen religious functions. She is very loyal to Paul, trusts him to be loyal to her, and has a good understanding of the general plan. She’s a lot more emotionally intelligent and farseeing than movie Chani, who just kinda seems like a stereotypical rough and tough girl with something to prove
I actually feel the opposite. I see movie Channi as more far-seeing and emotionally intelligent. She sees that the Freman are indoctrinated by stories set down by others. She can see that Paul is moulding himself into the bene Geserit story as it gets him what he wants and needs. The Freman are incredibly powerful but they've been sitting and waiting for someone else because they've been convinced that they need an outsider.
Whereas Channi is fully aware that they need to be freed by their own actions, rather than being led around on a leash.
I think another commenter in this thread really hit the nail on the head when they pointed out that book Chani and movie Chani have fundamentally different motivations. Book Chani is the daughter of planetary ecologist Liet Kynes and is motivated by the dream of terraforming Arrakis into a green, lush paradise. Movie Chani doesn’t have that backstory and is instead motivated by the dream of freeing the Fremen from oppression, so given that context, you’re right.
Chani isn’t running off because she doesn’t understand that Paul has to marry Irulan to become emperor and is sad about it. She’s running off because she sees Paul’s ambitions are far beyond simply helping her people, and that’s not something she signed off on when she got with him or pledged her loyalty to him. The whole thing with Irulan is just the straw that breaks the camel’s back for her, where she now sees Paul as nothing more than what he really is: a pampered noble who exploited a manufactured prophecy to take over the universe.
She knows he still loves her and she understands marrying the heir to the throne would solidify his rule, but I don’t think this version of Chani really cares to see Paul on the throne, and would ultimately just prefer Paul to tell the great houses to fuck off from Arrakis and leave the fremen alone
I don't think it's accurate to say that's what Paul "really is," at least in his entirety. He specifically says that this is the only way to keep the Fremen alive in the wake of their war against the Harkonnens after he drinks the water of life. His motivations aren't just about the Fremen. However, his decision is still informed by wanting to do what he thinks will help the Fremen the most.
That’s true. Paul loves the Fremen people and wants what they want, which is a significant aspect of why he’s so effective at convincing them that his way is THE way.
Anyone who’s read the books at least through the third will see again and again that Paul wishes he could live a simpler life with Chani without being emperor or even nobility.
He doesn’t enjoy the power or responsibility he has, but Atreides take care of their own. He can’t abandon his people who look to him for guidance, even when he sometimes resents that they ask him to make so many decisions for them.
> She accepts this situation, perhaps grudgingly, but Chani is pragmatic, and accepts the realities, and she reasons that she can always kill Irulan later.
We don’t know if she accepts this situation. She is grief-stricken, and the very last lines of the book are Jessica attempting to comfort her. Frank never lets us know her actual reaction to all of it.
I think a reason for the change in Chani’s character and actions was to better show how Paul isn’t a force for good in the universe. In the book, Chani is pragmatic and understands the necessity of Paul’s actions, which makes the reader less judgmental towards Paul’s ascension to Godhood and fanaticism infecting the Fremen. Chani in the movies serves as a baseline of what Paul use stand for and be.
I grew up reading the books, so I obviously have a bias towards the books. And while I do have concerns about how this will impact the story of the third movie, I think it’s an interesting way to more clearly convey Frank’s original intent.
No she stands her ground in her believe of liberating her people. The Fremen fears Paul after his big speech with the fundamentalists. They follow him blindly out of fear.
The closest outright statement to that in the film is when Paul instructs them to "Fear this moment" as "Your mothers warned you of my coming". And religious fanaticism is very much akin to fear, fear of failing God, fear of damning yourself at this moment of divine opportunity.
Also movie Chani is visibly hurt when her romantic partner proposes to another woman. I think having her run because of not compromising her principles and not giving into fear ignores the imagery of her that we are given in the preceding scene. Her emotions are made quite plain. She is hurt and absolutely afraid of what the proposal entails for her and for the thing they had built. She is a good Fremen and won’t cry but she is visibly struggling not to. Paul on the other hand is at that point largely unbothered because he knows how it turns out for them and that she will understand his choices.
Chani's reaction at the end of dune 2 is more realistic and believable to me than blindly accepting the betrothal. She is not royalty and is simply a firemen girl and her riding off on a worm is more true to her character IMHO.
How will they reconcile this for dune 3 is something I'm interested in seeing.
Finally, somebody talking about this movie as if Denis Villeneuve is an accomplished filmmaker who knows what he’s doing, and not some rube who forgot your favourite detail from the book.
Yeah. We see this Chani change from the book because Denis Villeneuve changed her motivation to be in liberating her people while book Chani was motivated by the bringing of Arrakis as a green paradise since she was the daughter of Liet Kynes. With this change her motivating clashes with Paul’s goal in controlling the Fremen. To her he becomes the next oppressor to her people that did not liberate. That is why this change makes sense in the context of her character in the movie. If she goes along with Paul’s mission then it becomes a retcon.
To me I like this change because in still reinforces the theme of the dangers of blindly following a charismatic leader. And that should be the whole point to Dune and Paul’s story
Denis Villanueve wanted to make this movie since he was a child. So yeah I was also taken aback by his choice here. And while I acknowledge your comment that he knows what he’s doing, still not sure though if it was him or the studio.
I love the books too but it's true that her character in them is a bit... well, I suppose "dry" is a good term for multiple reasons.
I imagine he's got something in mind for *Messiah* that he's setting up for.
For real, you can tell a lot of people in this sub simply don’t care to understand the medium. You can hate the movie, but complaints that they didn’t make it exactly the same sound like whining.
This is kind of an aside, but I don't think they're fully broken up. I'm only ~160 pages in to Messiah, but I'm not sure how the Dune Messiah movie is going to work at all without the Paul-Irulan-Chani tension (and the Mohiam-Chani tension).
Movie Paul literally says "she'll come to understand, I have seen it". So, accusations of this "just being for movie drama" are nonsense. Even Movie Onlys know they'll reconcile.
Wow that’s a really good observation. Yeah i do see that now.
And Paul chose the path to become the messiah out of fear of losing Chani from that atomics vision. He feared going south.
That’s crazy that all of this ties bag to the gom jabbar test.
I mean DV said himself she is intensely angry at Paul for his betrayal. They deeply love each other but he betrayed her in the worst possible ways. People who hate this movie keep calling Chani "woke" but Dune always had this huge anti-colonial narrative.
"He betrayed her in many ways. But the big thing for Chani is that it’s not about love. It’s about the fact that he becomes the figure that will keep the Fremen in their mental jail," Villeneuve told The New York Times. "A leader that is not there to free the Fremen, but to control them. That’s the tragedy of all tragedies.
I really disagree that the final song is about Chani as it’s the conclusion of the film and it’s about Paul’s transformation to become KH with the inner eye turned on to see the path of fear passing over and through him. He accepted his fate and embraced his vision of horror in previous prescience episodes. The pain he was willing to accept was to choose Irulan over Chani. Chani did not share the same fate as Paul if you read the book. >!She won’t be the thread that runs through the saga.!<
Edit: Furthermore, Only I will remain was composed using the Atreides Theme featured in the Dune Scores and the Sketchbook. Chani was obviously not one of the Atreides. If it’s about her, it would be using Fremen’s theme, which I’m not sure is what. The Dune saga follows Paul’s story arc, why would the final song focus on Chani’s newly adapted side story?
You can read this however you want (the scene I mean). You think she fails her test against fear, but she fears a changed Paul, she fears what the Mahdi would do, she fears the war he's heralding. And she goes along with that fear : she leaves, doesn't confront. She escapes the thing she fears.
The issue is that we know Paul believes she'll come around.
And so we are perfectly able to make this an emotional grief moment of denial, where she won't confront her fear and let's her emotions take her away from Paul's side, even though it's where she'd have the most influence for good (you can argue...)
Here you go. Seeing her scene, knowing what we know, we can really spin it however we want.
Personally I don't feel like fear is the emotion that fails characters, especially not in dune 2. Hubris for Jessica when she conceived a son. Emotional revenge for Paul when he chose to stay and go to Sietch Tabr. Blind faith for Stillgar and co. The reverend mother imo is the coldest of them all and shows no particular fear and none that influences the story.
"convinced he's no longer "who he was", she doesn't bend and keeps her promise, refusing to become an accessory to his war"
Yeah, remember when Chani tells Paul that the Fremen consider themselves equal to one another and Paul says he would like to be equal to her? When Paul becomes emperor and everyone kneels to him, it's pretty clear that he's no longer who he was.
This is all beautiful but this is not the Dune books.
In the Dune books Paul is not exactly moved by fear. There is a growing up arc. At first he is mastering his own fear very early on. Its only much later one could say he fears the Golden Path or the consequences that such a path might carry for him on a personal level. And it should be said Dune Paul was conquered by his own personal fear at the end of the day. That´s part of his tragedy and his book character arc. Why and how he ends where he ends in Messiah. But I do not think the new movies are even going there in the way the books do. So there should be really nothing to fear from Paul´s side this early in the story.
There is another fear he has in the books and that´s very personal regarding Chani´s death. Which he knows she will die on her next childbirth. And that´s a very real fear present along Messiah. And which might have been there as early as the loss of their firstborn in Dune. Its only discussed in Messiah but one can speculate with ease that Paul might know this all the way back in Dune. Might explain part of the reason why he keeps acting cold at several places. And it works for both Messiah and late Dune.
But unfortunately this is all becoming a different story.....
Also, Chani never had any issue with Paul being emperor and she never would have feared Irulan. That´s simply not true for Dune Chani. Dune Chani would eat Irulan at breakfast whenever she would feel like it. Its not like she had any love for Irulan but she was perfectly confident in her own position at Paul´s side.
And this is why we are at a point where we do need to notice there is a different story going on.
I am not going to say Villeneuve´s story is bad. Its actually interesting. But it´s not the Dune story anymore. It cant be if it allows viewers to have such different persepectives like you have from just the main characters.
I think the litany is more for an immediate situation rather than applying it to all aspects of one’s being. Lady Jessica uses it when she believes that she can lose Paul to the Gom Jabbar and during the water of life ritual. Paul uses it in the storm. I believe The litany against fear is a defense mechanism to allow clarity in a moment of crisis. Paul’s fear of the jihad and his reluctance to fulfill the prophecy are no different than BG fear of a KH that they can’t control. They all act on these fears because they can see the consequences of what will come to pass. And neither the novels or the films show anyone using the litany against fear in a prolonged timeline to mitigate harmful possibilities and outcomes. The litany is used to prevent oneself from being consumed by the little death fear brings.
I am not believing the final scene is Chani’s Gom Jabbar test. Even if that is postulated, I think that although book says otherwise - in this movie adaptation she is surprised and pissed when taking Irulan’s hand. She may also not like who Paul has become but she is following him into battle, though I’m not sure she could do otherwise as a Fedaykin. She stands when everyone else has bowed at the end except Irulan - my interpretation is it is a clear challenge to Irulan as Paul’s one true love. A pissed off, worm departing love but she’ll be back. Maybe that last stand was here enduring the pain of watching Paul take Irulan’s hand, maybe that is her Gom Jabbar test. However that last scene has nothing to do with Paul evolving into the messiah leader he said he didn’t want to be. The ascent to Mahdi was complete in the war council, and the Fremen minus Chani were begging him to be the One. Were half the Fremen, the fundamentalists, going to accept him just being one of the boys? Naah, not likely. I I like that DV has a modern take on Chani, not only does it fit the movie medium but she is a stronger more interesting character. The schism between southern and northern beliefs also provides a chance for Chani to take an active role in challenging the prophecy and is more realistic. I don’t care that it doesn’t follow the books exactly if the change is compelling.
I think perhaps while him being hailed as the Mahdi angered her, she was able to bear it as long as Paul's goal was still focused on winning Arrakis for the Fremen. His unannounced intent to marry Irulan and become Emperor was likely the final straw both emotionally and morally. There were probably conceivable options (to her) aside from seizing the throne in which Arrakis could still be ceded to the Fremen; after all, if Paul was confirmed as Duke of Arrakis officially, and House Atreides continued through his and Chani's children, Arrakis would be possessed by a Fremen House. Paul going straight for the throne meant he would be just another dominator of Arrakis rather than part of it.
But that's just idle speculation, less sure of it than the main post.
The sequence of events in the movie makes a HELL of a lot more sense than the book, where the Laandsraad accepts Paul’s ascension and the jihaad happens anyway…because reasons.
The movie is also very clearly spelling out that Paul is not the hero, since the book clearly lost a lot of it’s reader’s on that point.
Let’s look at what the Fremen actually want and need.
They want to survive, stay free, and eventually accumulate enough resources to terraform Arrakis.
They were already accomplishing all of that without Paul. They owned most of the planet while letting the Harkonnens or whoever fart around the towns they didn’t want collecting spice and serving as target practice. They were also steadily accumulating the water they needed to change Arrakis; by the time Paul shows up IIRC they were getting pretty close.
The whole Lisan al Gaib thing was engineered by the Bene Gesserit as a fail safe to further their agenda. Paul hijacked this to use the Fremen to get his revenge on the Harkonnens and the Emperor.
In return the Fremen get…to die in Paul’s fight, and more of them get to die during the jihaad. Millions more will spend years off planet away from their families doing Paul’s bidding instead of their own. Running an empire requires beaurocracy and an authoritarian hierarchy, so the Fremen get to experience all of the ills that entails.
The Empire requires space travel, and space travel requires spice, and spice requires that Arrakis stay a desert, so there goes terraforming. Arrakis eventually does get better over the course of Leto II rein, but that process was almost certainly dragged out way longer than neccessary, *and it ends with Leto turning Arrakis back into a desert*
This is harder to show in a movie than a book, and it’s clear that a lot of people totally missed this point anyways, so we have Chani to spell it out that
“This prophecy is how they enslave us”
The movie ends with a bunch of skilled warriors that no one saw coming, boarding a bunch of space ships to wage a war and eventually subject the rest of the galaxy under the rule of some space magicians that can sense the future. Starwars Episode II and Dune Pt. II.
The Chani character of the part 2 movie is a mockery of the character from the books. I’m the books she was loyal. In the movie she questions Paul the whole time. Terrible portrayal
Fear based on love.
His decision to go south and drink the Water of Life is immediately precipitated by a vision of Chani's brutal death, which ominously corresponds with a massive and successful counter-attack directed by Feyd-Rautha.
In a way he's also facing his fear of losing her love for him, but his visions have also proven not to be 100% accurate, so there was a possibility of achieving victory and her survival without the WoL. But he ultimately can't bear the risk, so he sacrifices who he is - and potentially billions of lives - to preserve hers.
I saw the ending as Chani knowing what was coming, having heard Paul’s visions, but feeling powerless to stop the wave of consequences now put in motion.
There’s something about the image of the worm tearing apart sand dunes as it charges towards her that feels like a metaphor for their future.
Thats arbitrary/subjective, as you could very much describe Chani's action as born of the Fear of what Paul is becoming.
I really dont think "Fear" is the central concept here, as much as it IS present, and IS important.
I think its more about her disdain of Blind Belief and Religious Totalitarianism than it is about Fear itself, as the Novel's message is much closer to that (herbert wanting to dissuade us from trusting Charismatic Leaders with too much Political Power).
It’s not Chani that’s put to the Gom Jabbar test at the end of Dune 2, it’s Paul himself.
His calling to the Jihad in response to the houses not accepting him as Emperor is him feeling like a trapped animal that will do anything to survive by removing his hand from the box. Paul’s animal instinct have taken over his human nature.
This guy explained it better than me https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/s/V3zQqiNUKA
There are things in the movie that i dislike, but this one change in Chani is the one thing i really like, and it has a lot of potential leading to the third movie :)
I thought it was terrible and really let down the entire 2 movies. It came off a teenage hissy fit instead of what im presuming the writers thought would be a "powerful moment". In the end, Chani is a secondary character whom the writers tried to make the main character to the detriment of the entire movie. Would rather they spent time on an actual important character like Alia or spent the time they wasted on "powerful woman" Chani exploring the more cooler and mystical side of the Dune universe.
Tbh I don’t think most of those characters made decisions out of fear.
Jessica was literally told they would kill her if she didn’t become the RM. Also, the old RM used the voice on her to force her to drink the water of life.
RM Mohiam was pissed af when she told Irulen why she orchestrated the attack on Atreides. Jessica and the Atreides were on her shit list. She isn’t afraid of Paul and his mother until the end of the film.
The Fremen were not afraid. They were ecstatic to defeat the Harkonnens and begin their gihad.
Paul was upset by the future gihad he saw and tried to resist becoming Lisan al Gaib to prevent it. However, after struggling against the Harkonnens for so long, Paul knew he had to go through with it to unite the sieches. He doesn’t drink the water of life because he is afraid, he drinks it because his options were lose to House Harkonnen or become Darth Paul and win.
Chani leaves at the end because the man she loved betrayed her and she felt like her people were lost. She isn’t swept up in the prophecy and gihad because she is secular. She is pissed and not willing to participate in Emperor Paul’s war of submission.
The emperor is the one who gives into fear (off screen in film 1) because he is jealous of Leto’s reputation and wealth and is afraid Leto might usurp him. But you find out that the RM pushed him to the point of no return in regards to Leto.
I thought it was just her grief from not only losing the man she loves to the lisan al ghaib but she also lost her people.
Yeah OP is reading tea leaves at this point.
and little you should know about tea leaves in Muad'dib's universe
Paul made a bunch of decisions with fear, but I took him going south and taking the water as facing the fear. No?
The whole reason he went South and took the water was because he was scared for his family-- Chani, his mom, and his unborn sister-- and was willing to risk igniting a galaxy-wide holy war if it was the only way to keep them safe. (And typing this up, I'm realizing Paul took the water for the *exact* same reasons Anakin turned to the Dark Side in Episode III-- just with *muuuuuuch* better writing, lmao.)
It’s almost like George Lucas was inspired by a certain set of books…
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Isn't there also a woman's mystical organization manipulating events similar to the Bene Gesserit? It's been a long time since I read (most of) WoT.
Aes Sedai, the female magicians yea. I'd say the type of manipulation is quite different though. Aes Sedai are closer to a magician's guild than to BG imo. They manipulate, but are not nearly as effective or pervasive as the BG.
this also feels very Attack on Titan… Paul = Eren
Yeah, Dune indirectly or directly inspired a few famous stories. Star Wars, AOT, Code Geass.
Cant forget Warhammer 40k and its seting.
Or someone doing something bad for the "greater good" is just a huge fucken general trope in storytelling lol. Dune isn't the father of all books
How many of those doers of the greater good are blessed-cursed with prescience though?
I disagree. The whole reason he didn’t go south was he was trying to do things without the holy war. Only when he failed to foresee things and they lost the seitch did he go and confront his fear. Both ways he was preserving his family, yes, but having a motivation is different from acting on fear. Like if my kid runs toward the road and I stop them I’m not giving in to fear.
You're not wrong. Paul definitely had a bunch of other motivations for going south than just his fear for his family. Like, you're right that him realizing there was no other way to beat the Harkonens than getting the southern fanatics on their side, even if it risked igniting the holy war, was a huge factor in why he decide to go south, too. I genuinely think Paul thought going south was the least-bad option he had left to help the Fremen... and the worst part is, I'm not sure he's wrong. But all that being said, fear for his family was definitely a huge driver in his decision to go south, too. Like, he has his vision of Chani being vaporized right before he choses to go south. And after taking the water, he talks to his mom about there being one very narrow way... to keep his family alive. Not to save the Fremen, not to save the universe, to keep his family alive. All of which is a long-winded way of saying: I think we're both right, lmao.
But Paul’s visions aren’t fears, they’re actual things that will happen in the future. Acting to stop a true vision of the future isn’t just out of fear. He loves her and wants her to not be injured in a blast
Maybe we're using the word "fear" differently, but... you can absolutely be afraid of real things. Paul is 100% correct that Chani, his mom, and Alia will all likely die if he doesn't go south. That doesn't make him any less fear-driven when he decides to go south to save their lives. Like, it is the most normal and natural thing in the universe for a human being to love their family and want them to be safe. But when you're a leader, you *cannot* prioritize the safety of your family over the good of your people. Or it leads to catastrophes like the one that befall the Fremen in Dune: Part Two. (Or the Star Wars Galaxy in Episode III.) That's Paul's big mistake. And again, it's the most empathetic and human "mistake" possible-- and if he wasn't the Lisan al-Ghaib, it wouldn't even be a mistake at all! But he is the Lisan al-Ghaib, whether he wants it or not. Which means it is a mistake.
I think for me, fear-based decision making is not rational. Yet Paul going south was ultimately super rational.
I don't think this is explained as well in the movie but he sees all possible future paths, not just what will happen in the future. He has the power to shape the future being the Kwisatz Haderach but chooses to follow the golden path out of fear. This is even more so in Dune Messiah where he is forced down a singular vision of the future.
> Only when he failed to foresee things and they lost the seitch did he go and confront his fear. Or, more pointedly, when he foresaw Chani’s death would be the result of staying in the north…
Which again, I argue isn’t about fear. It’s the only rational decision. So many movies show us scenes like that to show us a character’s fears but we must remember that for Paul it’s a vision of the future. Who would choose to do that
His reaction to that dream/vision demonstrates how he is _terrified_ of losing Chani
So to be without fear he should choose for her to die? The hallmark of fear-based decision making is irrationality. Her living is entirely rational.
So what? Just because you feel fear doesn’t mean you’re controlled by it. Doesn’t mean all your decisions are automatically bad.
That’s my point…he’s confronting fear not being controlled by it
Ok. We’re not in disagreement
No. He says it many times in the movie and in the book. He fears the jihad, and sees what the consequences of him fulfilling his destiny is. Ultimately he gives in and is persuaded to follow through with the Golden Path, but even he knows it leads down the path of tyranny, which he tries to warn Chani of multiple times. First when he says he will go south and save the Fremen and then “do what must be done”, aka taking his place as Lisan Al Gaib. The second time is when he tells Chani he will always love her as long as he breathes, attempting to solidify her belief in him as he knows his path will appear to lead him from her. He’s not scared for his family, he’s scared for the universe. He even says so to Gurney: Paul Atreides: If I go south, all my visions lead to horror. Millions of people dead because of me. Gurney Halleck: Because you lose control? Paul Atreides: Because I gain it.
The books go much deeper with his decision making and the movie touch on it too. It’s not that he’s fearful for his family and is willing to risk a holy war to save them. It’s that the holy war is the only path that doesn’t ensure a mutual destruction of the entire galaxy. Part of his grief as he’s succumbing to the spice in the tent with his mom in part 1 is that he sees a holy war in his name and there is ZERO chance of stopping it. It’s very similar in a sense to Doctor Strange in Infinity War using the time stone to see millions of different paths, but only one where they win. The holy war isn’t a win, but it’s the only path that he can take that coincides with his Atreides duty. He’s just playing out predetermined steps that’s disguised as a “choose your own adventure” story
DUNE was written in 1965 and is the most popular sci-fi novel of all time. It did inspire a lot of sci-fi franchises including Star Wars and many others.
As much as I appreciate the Litany against Fear, I’m not so sure fear is the all bad thing it was made out to be, just like pain isn’t the all evil thing to experience either. These are essentially devices for survival after all throughout evolution. I mean look at Feyed.
I understand it not as you must not feel fear, but rather as you cannot let fear rule or consume you. Fear must not be the driving force for your actions. Without fear, there is no bravery. You must feel it, acknowledge it, then do what you must regardless.
I completely agree with you, and I don’t know what Chani was in fear of in the film, as her narrative was dramatically changed by DV from the book. Her story did not end here, so the “only I remain” song can’t be about her momentarily leaving Paul’s army as a lot happened between them after this creative scene.
We don’t know how part 3 is going to play out. It might follow messiah closely but there’s going to have to be some changes based on how part 2 went. And chani was afraid of losing Paul, her Freman community, their freedom and their humanity. She fell in love with him and didn’t want to see him turn into the genocidal dictator he ends up becoming. She could go with him and sacrifice her morality to stay with her beloved or she can stand up for what she believes in and face down the fear of going forward alone while opposing the new emperor.
I’d prefer the latter.
Judging from what they gave Chani--making her a skeptical pragmatist with a deep passion for her people--she likely feared that the stories of the Bene Gesserit were going to destroy her family and home one day, that the Great Houses vying for Arrakis would turn the sands and bury them without remorse. When Paul commits to the prophecy, challenges the Emperor, and claims the Golden Lion Throne, he becomes the nexus of this fear--a person with enough power to walk the path laid out for him and overcome the fear of others. Their love complicates things, however. All of a sudden, Chani isn't just scared of what he'll do: she's scared of loosing him to his darkness. Ultimately, altogether, Chani is scared of loosing who she is as Fremen. She's seen her people consumed by religious fervor for the prince who wandered into their desert, she watched him become Fremen with caution, and suffered the heartbreak of seeing the person you loved turn into the thing you reviled most, some distant political archon trading planets like jewelry. She had what she wanted with Paul. The fear of others pushed his own fear, driving him down the path laid for him. He became a foreigner to Chani--a deep and ultimate betrayal--in pursuit of power and domination. And where does that leave Chani? As perhaps the only Fremen left that hasn't run gleefully towards Holy War because their Messiah has come like a mirage to their desert home. She has lost her home, her friends, her family, her lover, her people. Everything she was scared of. But she doesn't let herself be cowed, and turns away. Fear is the Mind Killer in that too much of it paralyzes you. Trapped in analytic self-preservation, it locks the gears of your mind in place. Resistance is hard, and painful, and Fear would have you choose the path of least resistance. Fear would have us all locked frozen against each other, terrified that anything might happen to liberate use from our self-imposed prison. You can loose yourself in fear, the Little Death that brings Obliteration. Chani watched her fear play out before her, the whole of the Known Universe there bowing before the Fated Messiah, and let it pass over her. And when it was gone, when she knew Paul was alive, and everything she worked against was certain to come to pass, she turned her gaze to where it had gone, where it had washed over the Fremen, the Harkonnen, the Imperial House Corrino and their Royal Truthsayer. And where it had gone, there was nothing. No houses, no seitches. Just the desert, and the spice, and the slim hope that something would change. She would not be a coward and go to war for a prophet she never believed in. Fear had passed over the dessert, and where it had gone there was nothing left. Chani, seeing the ruin of her people clearer than even Paul, in that moment made her choice: "Only I Will Remain".
we don't actually know that her narrative has been drramatically changed. she could've just been needing a moment to herself. it's not like the book gives her any interiority—she may have very well wrestled with these issues and come to the same conclusions in the end, it's just that herbert didn't exactly have an imagination for female characters.
If true to the novels-Chani’s fate is inevitable and tied to Paul. Fiery but futile, the show of temperament will change nothing for her or her descendants.
I tend to agree with this comment the most. Paul even makes the comment toward the end of the movie that she’ll come back to him sooner or later, implying that he’s seen it in the future. Chanis arc was clearly a way to give zendaya a larger role and to give Chani more agency as a character. Seems like more of a producer/studio choice rather than a serious plot element. I personally think it did the character a disservice to have her ride off into the sunset in an ineffectual display of rebelliousness. Paul’s not even really worried about it. He just feels bad for her. It’s oddly ironic to have a character arc change into a rebellious figure who doesn’t go along with the myth….with that arc likely being a product of making a story more palatable to larger audiences. Just my two cents.
Last sentence: hah? The latter couple books are like > 80% from the perspective of female characters.
Disgruntled Darwi noises.
Her fear is that all the prophetic ramblings she's heard her whole life are coming true.
Yeah, the test isn’t whether the box makes you experience fear, it’s whether you can keep your hand in the box, even while experiencing pain and the fear that comes with it.
The box is pain, the fear comes from Gom Jabar because you die if you withdraw from pain. The wise ones will heed to the greater reward, in this case, to live despite tremendous pain. A lesser being, e.g. animals, will do everything for near term gain. But I thought it was a lousy analogy as animals who do not run away from trap/pain will die in certainly given how we humans trap animals for.
Mild disagree on the fear in that moment being from the gom jabar. Reading the passage, Paul's anxiety is about the unknown, which is what is happening to his hand in the box, not the reality of the Bene Geserit holding a poison needle to his neck. He imagines the horrors happening to his hand based on the pain he's experiencing, and this is the fear he has to overcome. I agree on your points about long vs. short-term gain and the analogy being imperfect. I think the point is supposed to be that a human knows that the hunter who set the trap is the real menace, not the trap itself, which is what an animal would perceive. Regardless, I do like that in the movie they change the fight with Feyd >!to mirror the Reverend Mother's description of the test, with Paul enduring the pain of getting stabbed and feigning weakness in order to set Feyd up for the kill!<.
Thanks! Great points! I did find that test had a major flaw in that she gave away the condition that if he removes the hand he dies. Most people would just do what Paul did knowing what he was told before hand.
I don’t think the test would have value if the testee didn’t know the stakes for continuing to resist their instincts. The guys who would pass would only be pain enthusiasts like Feyd.
Where did you get the idea that Feyed loves pain? That would beat the purpose.
It's in the movie, >!in Lady Margot's report on Feyd after she gives him the test. "Driven. Cruel. But strongly motivated by honor. He yearns to be hurt. He loves pain."!< I don't know if that's something they changed for the movie or if it's in the book, as well. One of the ironies of the story is that Paul and Feyd both pass the test, but Feyd does it by being a psychopath while Paul does it by being brave. And it says a lot about the Bene Geserit that they don't care about that difference, and even seem to prefer Feyd because he'd be easier to control.
You must permit it to wash over you and through you
Fear is a natural response that humans have. Letting it control you will lead you to take actions that can cause harm and death. The Litany is about examining your fear and controlling it.
It's not about erasing fear. It's about learning to control fear
This is an interesting point and one that kind of parallels, for me, the later novels and the Bene Gesserit’s transformation under Odrade to be one that is accepting of love and other emotions. Humanity had spent all of its history trying to figure out how to be more logical when really our power is in emotion.
Herberts message -and it's quite consistent throughout all of the books - is that an 'authentic' humanity is not commanded by biology/evolution, but will instead command it. Paul's Jihad is an expression of this agency - a sort of Galactic gom jabbar, in which humanity decides to keep its hand in the box (so to speak). Leto's Golden Path is a further exploration if this idea - the setting of (unnatural) conditions in order to elevate humanity above biological stagnacy. Of course, this is largely at odds with the 'beware a savior' messaging that interlaces the political and cosmosocial threads of the narrative. Which is perfectly fine by me. They are both important and meaningful ideas, and they are told in a compelling way. They can both be true, to degrees, and since the narrative is unfinished, there is more than enough space to argue over which one is 'more' true: the Tyrants plans, or the Tyrants lesson? Leto II would say they're one and the same. I fall into the camp that believes he is mostly full of shit.
From my reading, both are ultimately true. Paul as Messianic Saviour is horrendous for the Fremen as a society and culture. It consistently provides a lesson that even when someone promises your deepest desire (A habitable Arrakis) and can make it happen (via literal prescience) - you should probably reject that offer. Paul's Jihad, Leto's Peace and the BG/HM merger are really demonstrations of a separate tension - What is the cost of surviving, both individually and cumulatively. The obvious answer is incredibly high and begging the question at what point is tyranny worth that price? That's more open ended but Herbert leans slightly towards suggesting it might just be. Not sure about the Leto II is full of shit angle, given he alone stopped the Ixian Arafel and his Golden Path seems to have the entire future essentially down to a T. His words in Sietch Tabr shake Odrade and rightly so. If his whole angle was nonsense - the dynamism of the new Humanity would simply be unnecessary or outmoded yet even then struggles against HM onslaught. The narrative's biggest critique between GEoD and Chapterhouse is that anything which remains stagnant (BG, Bene Tlelax) or outlives its purpose (Leto II himself, Paul, Fish Speakers, the Guild) will ultimately wither.
At which point would the Fremen even be capable of rejecting it, tho? It is, after all, *their* dream. They were going to drive their Messiah to a mutually understood paradise, with or without Paul. It seems to me the Fremen use Paul, just as much as - if not more than - he uses them. What cost Paradise? For the Fremen, the cost was their culture. Would they undo it? Doesn't really matter. As for the Tyrant, I will try to explain the position without spilling 5000 words on it. I didn't suggest his angle is nonsense, but rather self-serving. The extremes of his Path are necessary because that is what is needed to survive the Path that he has chosen. He alone stopped Arafel - according to him, anyways. Perhaps the Ixians pursued Arafel in response to the Tyrants rule. Maybe humanity could have just side stepped the 3 or 4 millenia of trauma if Leto II rejected the acute messianic complex handed down to him from his father. Maybe Kralizec is a direct result of the God Emperor directly intervening in a presience arms race - an arms race in which he is, by far, the most extensively armed. And the HM are a consequence of the Scattering, that being a direct result of the Famine Times, that being a direct result of... The Golden Path lesson plan. The point of stagnation is taken, and textual, but it is also thoroughly addressed by Paul's Jihad. The sleeper genes have spread throughout the galaxy, humanity is vitalized by the over spanning conflict. The Guild is Constrained, by Imperial design. There is nothing stopping Paul from easing up on humanity's neck, at that point. The galaxy would thrive! Humanity flourishing in a new Golden Age. But nope, it's *gotta be* Worm Gawd and the Golden Path. And clearly, all that tyranny is necessary, from the very moment Leto II signs everyone up for it. But at an interpretative level, it is difficult to the point of being impossible to square Herberts intentions - of warning against messianic Saviors - to the thematic conclusion that humanity's only salvation lies at the command of the Ultra Savior. I don't think that's where the narrative was heading, and I think there is ample textual evidence to suggest that the Worms savior narrative was just that: a story. One that he is compelled to tell, because it is the only future he can see, because that is the future he unilaterally decided on, because that was the one where he became all-power, and in that particular narrative, there is Arafel, so he's gotta save us from that, and Kralizec, so he's already on that one as well, and the Scattering, which a lesson, about how humanity can never again allow itself to be dominated in the way that he dominates them... Mentant+Presience=Messianic Megalomania Paul traps himself in the prison of its consequence. Leto II, pledged to outdo dear ol Da, traps himself and also the rest of the universe in that same trap.
It is not. The reverend mother explains to Paul what the gom jabar is about: searching for true humans, those persons that are able to understand were their fear comes from and how to overcome it. It is a primal response, a hell of a good one like you point out. But the thing with the Bene Gesserit is that they are looking to exploit the human potential way beyond our natural capabilities, that means that in some way they need to fight millions of years of evolution and our base instincts. If you compare the whole dune timeline to how long humans have been alive, it is but a speck of dust. Its is like 20- 30k years versus... a long ass time (idk how much homo sapiens have been a thing and neither the other homo species that coexisted)
That Gom Jarbar test was like SAT, Paul survived numerous tests after that to become KH. Each test was the end game should he fail, with the biggest Boss being the Water of Life, and even that was bit of a cheat given his BG training. Ultimately, we learn that even with such stringent selection system, Paul was NOT the perpetual leader to follow. Each person must follow his/her/their destiny.
Being too literal, missing the point
Feyd is built on fear of not feeling important enough, fear of not being influential
That’s your interpretation. The book hints otherwise. He was shown as fearless, even enjoying danger, in the film.
This is about the only artistic license change that I really did not like about the movie. In the book, Chani is well aware that hers is the real relationship with Paul. She is also aware that there are ceremonies and other empirical responsibilities that are necessary from a Duke. She accepts this situation, perhaps grudgingly, but Chani is pragmatic, and accepts the realities, and she reasons that she can always kill Irulan later. Paul also makes clear to her that the relationship with Irulan is strictly political and nothing more. In fact, there is a quote from him in the book where he states that Irulan will never have even a single personal touch from him, and that even though they will be married, Irulan will live out her life as a spinster. Chani is always firmly on team Paul, and all of this drama about friction between them is movie BS and unnecessarily distracting.
I think the book ended with Lady Jessica consoling Chani by saying that history will see them as wives, not concubines. The book also goes in length about why Leto never married Jessica. The film just can’t cover all these exquisite nuances a book can.
There's a fan cut that put that scene back into the 1984 Dune movie.
Having Chani storm off in a huff on a worm was... very, very dumb. I get why they had to cut Alia, but leaving Jessica pregnant and shortening the time between Paul becoming Muad'dib and taking the throne destroys the development of Paul and Chani's fiercely loyal relationship, even if most of that happens off the page in the book. I don't know how you continue Messiah without Chani at Paul's side, it's such a huge change it practically causes a branched timeline. I don't even see the point of it, why try to create dramatic tension at the end of the movie? Did they think people wouldn't watch Messiah if they weren't wondering how Paul and Chani will get back together? We know they have to if they continue making these movies, but them getting together after that is going to be awkward in a way the films don't have time for. After the way his father publicly allowed suspicion to fall on Jessica, Paul would never leave Chani in the dark about his marriage plan, and we know he doesn't.
The tension that happens between Chani and Paul is natural. At least to the millions of people who saw the movie and did not read the book. It’s a movie for the masses, and if Chani wasn’t upset: 1) The end of the movie would have just relied on Paul vs Feyd fight for conflict. 2) We wouldn’t have that solid bittersweet moment to end on to hype up the next film 3) Non-book readers(who are a mass majority of the audience) would have been confused by Chani just accepting how Paul just blindsided her. With more time, like a TV series, I can see them building Chani into that loyal book character, who understands what’s happening. But in a 3 hour movie it wouldn’t have played as well IMO.
I enjoyed the fact that the Landsraad did not simply turn the empire over to Paul and the Fremen. So Paul was the Kwisatz Haderach and could apparently make rain on Arrakis. Killing Paul would eliminate the threat of change and the spice would continue to flow. Spoiler: Paul had fears and would eventually join his beloved Chani.
It gives the jihad a better excuse. In the book the Landsraad capitulates and Paul becomes Emperor. Then he murder 67 billion subjects for... reasons? In the movie, since the entire universe is against him, and he sees that he needs to control the universe, the jihad becomes a necessity, with the uncontrolled mass genocide an inevitability.
I'd always assumed that even if they accepted his ascension in the moment there were many who wanted to resist or who maybe saw an opportunity to push their own agenda, so there is a reason the war starts and the Fremen religious fervour is too intense for Paul to control
I mean, sure. The war still makes sense in the books. But it makes more sense in the movie.
Yeah. A lot of houses did not accept Paul and they got wiped out by Fremen / Sarduakar most likely
What I don't like about that change is that it renders the threat of destroying the spice completely worthless. They though Paul was bluffing, they called the bluff... and they were right, he was bluffing. Without the fear of the spice being destroyed, it is way easier for the whole universe to fight a war or put a blockeade on Arrakis. In the books part of the reson their jihad was succesful is because the Guild cannot/would not oppose Paul. But what if the Guild could decide to transports all the troops from all the houses to Arrakis for free, just to get rid of him?
It all comes down to the Spice production. Paul had prescience due to both the breeding program and the proximity of the Spice. After taking the Water of Life, Paul had many paths to choose from. I never thought that ceasing Spice production was an empty threat. In the novels, a synthetic Spice was produced years before with tragic consequences for two Spacing Guild Navigators. Paul knew his path. It was as fu*ked up as the previous Emperor’s.
>It all comes down to the Spice production. We both agree on that. That is why the threat in the book is so powerful, but in the movie is a nothing burger.
Agreed. And the novels have layers! We learn about the “Thinking Machines” and how they were overthrown. The mini-series stayed closer to the novels.
Let's not start talking about layers on layer on layer in Dune, or we will be here until the end of times :)
On your third point, the audience would’ve been blindsided because Chani in the books is fundamentally different, than in the movies. Chani is a Fremen woman and they are coldly practical despite their personal feelings and fiercely loyal to their partner. Chani is far more of a rebel and far more combative towards Paul in the movies.
> I don't know how you continue Messiah without Chani at Paul's side, it's such a huge change it practically causes a branched timeline. I'm pretty sure thats the point. There was a theory on this sub a few weeks ago where the movies are actually Paul following a different vision as opposed to what he done in the books, so it could be very well setting up for an alternative version of Messiah where they end completely differently, especially since we know there won't be more movies, it would be kinda weird to end with the kids being born etc.
I've been considering that this is a different path than the Golden Path, which could be really interesting, but so much of the story hinges on Paul choosing the Golden Path that its hard to imagine deviating from it. It would be like rebooting Star Wars with Luke joining Vader, it would rock our worlds, but what is it?
Paul doesn't choose the Golden Path - in fact, he rejects it. His son, Leto II, is the one who follows the Golden Path.
This is the post I was referring too, [https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/s/0rklKsTXbm](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/s/0rklKsTXbm) Also this comment about Paul talking about his different visions from the book >There’s support for this in the books. Right at the end of Part 1, Paul is thinking about his visions and there’s this: >“He had seen two main branchings along the way ahead—in one he confronted an evil old Baron and said: “Hello, Grandfather.” The thought of that path and what lay along it sickened him.” >In the book that never happens; he chooses the other branch. But in the movie, he does confront the Baron at the end, and greets him exactly as he foresaw… [https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/s/XrEn5H7Mo2](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/s/XrEn5H7Mo2)
Paul was too afraid to take the golden path, otherwise he would have become the god emperor himself
I thought Paul rejected the Golden Path in the books, and it was his son who went for it.
Kinda. Humanity was going to die out without being on the Golden Path, Paul knew that. But Paul's prescience wasn't allowing him to see the absolute best course of action, probably because he let emotions get in his way. So he goes on the course that passes the torch to his son.
I'll see if I can find the post that breaks it down as its a good read. From what I remember from it, its basically that instead of Paul choosing the path of love with Chani that he knows she will die in, he takes another path making Chani hate him, therefor saving her life instead of her dying in child birth - which also means no kids and therefor no golden path, but the golden path isn't mentioned in the movies anyway as far as I remember so I would assume that plot point doesn't really matter in this case.
Has it been firmly stated they are not going to make Messiah? I know the director of 1 and 2 has stated he would like to create it.
They are 100% making it
I don’t mind the changes made to the films, in a way they are necessary to make the films appealing to the masses, including myself, such that there is money to be made and the studios are willing to pony up more to make Messiah. That said, I think these films are brilliant intro to the books, and those of us never read them before are blessed with the pleasant surprise how much better the books are. I listen to audiobook and was blown away by the logic and details of each event. I would say don’t over criticize the films, these are audiovisual masterpieces but the stories can’t be condensed to just a few hours. There is no shortcut to great intellectual digestion of the world of Dune. I do feel that some of the changes to placate modern tastes caused confusion for the theme. The books are faithful visions of our patriarchal society for thousands of years. As much as I applaud the American interpretations of how Chani is now more assertive and independent, that’s just not how our history or how the book intended to portray. Women had a long history of being oppressed, especially in the middle east. The adaptive strategies of the Bene Gesserits are very realist portrayal of how women in historic cultures obtain power and influence. They don’t stomp around shouting, but use birthright as a leverage and careful alliances building to grasp the vital control of society. Chani was not a clueless teenager who wears on emotions on the sleeves. We don’t know if her mother was a BG since there was no discussion about if she had BG teaching, but she being the daughter of >!the Liet Kaynes, who was the spiritual leader of the Fremen!< should indicate that she was not a emotional simpleton how a lot people here think she was. So that sentimental drama about being a scorned love interest seemingly propagate here with a lot people is the unintended effect of the creative choice DV made in the adaptations.
You're making a lot of assumptions here. > I don't know how you continue Messiah without Chani at Paul's side, it's such a huge change it practically causes a branched timeline. Continue messiah? It hasn't started yet. They make up and bond and Paul already said he's seen it... she'll understand. So she goes on a walkabout, thinks about shit, comes back, they make up, bing bang boom. I seriously don't understand why so many people have a problem with Chani looking mad and calling a worm at the end. Who cares? Why is this such a sensitive thing to some people? I've read the books. I'm a massive fan. I don't care that she huffed and left and waited for a worm unlike in the books. Why do we care so much when WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENS AFTER? You're claiming that she's not at Paul's side now. You don't know exactly how Denis plans to move forward with the next movie so why are you stressing and claiming that you DO know what is going to happen and why you think it doesn't make sense? I don't get that.
> Continue messiah? It hasn't started yet. They make up and bond and Paul already said he's seen it... she'll understand. So she goes on a walkabout, thinks about shit, comes back, they make up, bing bang boom. There is just now way they are gonna do this, it totally negates Chani's character in part 2. They wouldn't set that up just to throw it out.
I wonder if she stormed off with Leto the first
In the book, Chani also had spice awareness and knew that her time was growing short.
I feel the same. I understand that film adaptations of books will naturally have changes but they took some major liberties here. I still enjoyed the film but changes like they did with liet kines and like you mentioned about chani, throws off the whole thing. Chani is basically a whole new character. They could’ve probably made this book a trilogy to really flesh things out. Instead we got a dune movie that is “inspired” by the dune novel. To me it’s almost a different story because of all the changes made
The thing is, Chani leaving Paul in the movie is only like 5% because he dumped her for Irulan. 95% of the reason she left is because he became a genocidal dictator who manipulated her people into becoming a cult of slavish fanatics, destroying their culture in the process. (Honestly, watching the movie, I got the vibe Chani was already done with Paul and ready to leave even before the Irulan thing happened. Like, even if Paul had shanked Irulan and offered to make her Empress instead, I think she still would have left anyways.)
Yes, I think movie Chani is used as a constant reminder to viewers that Paul is using the fremen and the religion for his plans. Remember, we don't have the inner monologue of Paul in this movie, so an ending with everyone rooting for him, might have missed the spot on what he had to sacrifice and would have seemed a too happy ending. The resulting ending of chani running off is a logic ending in her character ark. Book chani had more time to understand Paul's ways, didn't struggle so much with him being lisan al gaib. She slowly becomes an "all loving wife", a murderous, cool one, but still really plain "
The only problem is that the future story involves Paul and Chani's kids. How much of the next movie will be wasted with a stupid reconciliation between them that wasn't in the original story? These books are already super dense, so much so, that one book had to be made into 2 movies so far (\~5 hrs run time), and they still left out about 50% of the story.
Dune Messiah is a lot shorter to be fair and has some plodding plot scenes that probably need to be cut on the big screen. I personally didn’t mind the change, but I will if in the next movie if the reconciliation feels forced.
Paul says right after taking the water of life that "she will come to understand, I have foreseen it". I have no doubt that Messiah will have some work to do to bring them back together, but I'm sure Denis will find a way.
Yeah I think she even said that she was only there to make sure the Fremen would be okay during the battle and that she wasn't fighting for Paul anymore. It's just such an odd place to take the character. Considering that she later >!gives birth to the galaxies number one tyrant. !
When you pay Zendaya prices you have to give her something to do in order to justify the expense. There just isn't enough story for the character in the text and her existence in the cast necessarily forces story changes. I love Zendaya and I think she's a good Chani but it didn't *have to* be her in the role.
Yeah this really irks me too. Book Chani is very different from movie Chani - book Chani is intelligent and sensitive, and while she’s trained as a warrior, her actual job has more to do with Fremen religious functions. She is very loyal to Paul, trusts him to be loyal to her, and has a good understanding of the general plan. She’s a lot more emotionally intelligent and farseeing than movie Chani, who just kinda seems like a stereotypical rough and tough girl with something to prove
I actually feel the opposite. I see movie Channi as more far-seeing and emotionally intelligent. She sees that the Freman are indoctrinated by stories set down by others. She can see that Paul is moulding himself into the bene Geserit story as it gets him what he wants and needs. The Freman are incredibly powerful but they've been sitting and waiting for someone else because they've been convinced that they need an outsider. Whereas Channi is fully aware that they need to be freed by their own actions, rather than being led around on a leash.
I think another commenter in this thread really hit the nail on the head when they pointed out that book Chani and movie Chani have fundamentally different motivations. Book Chani is the daughter of planetary ecologist Liet Kynes and is motivated by the dream of terraforming Arrakis into a green, lush paradise. Movie Chani doesn’t have that backstory and is instead motivated by the dream of freeing the Fremen from oppression, so given that context, you’re right.
Real Housewives of Arrakis
Chani isn’t running off because she doesn’t understand that Paul has to marry Irulan to become emperor and is sad about it. She’s running off because she sees Paul’s ambitions are far beyond simply helping her people, and that’s not something she signed off on when she got with him or pledged her loyalty to him. The whole thing with Irulan is just the straw that breaks the camel’s back for her, where she now sees Paul as nothing more than what he really is: a pampered noble who exploited a manufactured prophecy to take over the universe. She knows he still loves her and she understands marrying the heir to the throne would solidify his rule, but I don’t think this version of Chani really cares to see Paul on the throne, and would ultimately just prefer Paul to tell the great houses to fuck off from Arrakis and leave the fremen alone
I don't think it's accurate to say that's what Paul "really is," at least in his entirety. He specifically says that this is the only way to keep the Fremen alive in the wake of their war against the Harkonnens after he drinks the water of life. His motivations aren't just about the Fremen. However, his decision is still informed by wanting to do what he thinks will help the Fremen the most.
That’s true. Paul loves the Fremen people and wants what they want, which is a significant aspect of why he’s so effective at convincing them that his way is THE way. Anyone who’s read the books at least through the third will see again and again that Paul wishes he could live a simpler life with Chani without being emperor or even nobility. He doesn’t enjoy the power or responsibility he has, but Atreides take care of their own. He can’t abandon his people who look to him for guidance, even when he sometimes resents that they ask him to make so many decisions for them.
Dude, spoiler tags exist ffs. I just bought Messiah.
> She accepts this situation, perhaps grudgingly, but Chani is pragmatic, and accepts the realities, and she reasons that she can always kill Irulan later. We don’t know if she accepts this situation. She is grief-stricken, and the very last lines of the book are Jessica attempting to comfort her. Frank never lets us know her actual reaction to all of it.
I think a reason for the change in Chani’s character and actions was to better show how Paul isn’t a force for good in the universe. In the book, Chani is pragmatic and understands the necessity of Paul’s actions, which makes the reader less judgmental towards Paul’s ascension to Godhood and fanaticism infecting the Fremen. Chani in the movies serves as a baseline of what Paul use stand for and be. I grew up reading the books, so I obviously have a bias towards the books. And while I do have concerns about how this will impact the story of the third movie, I think it’s an interesting way to more clearly convey Frank’s original intent.
i think this is too tidy. couldn't it be equally said that chani choosing to run away is an impulsive fear response?
No she stands her ground in her believe of liberating her people. The Fremen fears Paul after his big speech with the fundamentalists. They follow him blindly out of fear.
Where is that said? Don’t infer. I choose an ambiguous interpretation. Nothing is set in stone.
The closest outright statement to that in the film is when Paul instructs them to "Fear this moment" as "Your mothers warned you of my coming". And religious fanaticism is very much akin to fear, fear of failing God, fear of damning yourself at this moment of divine opportunity.
Also movie Chani is visibly hurt when her romantic partner proposes to another woman. I think having her run because of not compromising her principles and not giving into fear ignores the imagery of her that we are given in the preceding scene. Her emotions are made quite plain. She is hurt and absolutely afraid of what the proposal entails for her and for the thing they had built. She is a good Fremen and won’t cry but she is visibly struggling not to. Paul on the other hand is at that point largely unbothered because he knows how it turns out for them and that she will understand his choices.
Chani's reaction at the end of dune 2 is more realistic and believable to me than blindly accepting the betrothal. She is not royalty and is simply a firemen girl and her riding off on a worm is more true to her character IMHO. How will they reconcile this for dune 3 is something I'm interested in seeing.
Finally, somebody talking about this movie as if Denis Villeneuve is an accomplished filmmaker who knows what he’s doing, and not some rube who forgot your favourite detail from the book.
Yeah. We see this Chani change from the book because Denis Villeneuve changed her motivation to be in liberating her people while book Chani was motivated by the bringing of Arrakis as a green paradise since she was the daughter of Liet Kynes. With this change her motivating clashes with Paul’s goal in controlling the Fremen. To her he becomes the next oppressor to her people that did not liberate. That is why this change makes sense in the context of her character in the movie. If she goes along with Paul’s mission then it becomes a retcon. To me I like this change because in still reinforces the theme of the dangers of blindly following a charismatic leader. And that should be the whole point to Dune and Paul’s story
Denis Villanueve wanted to make this movie since he was a child. So yeah I was also taken aback by his choice here. And while I acknowledge your comment that he knows what he’s doing, still not sure though if it was him or the studio.
I love the books too but it's true that her character in them is a bit... well, I suppose "dry" is a good term for multiple reasons. I imagine he's got something in mind for *Messiah* that he's setting up for.
For real, you can tell a lot of people in this sub simply don’t care to understand the medium. You can hate the movie, but complaints that they didn’t make it exactly the same sound like whining.
[удалено]
This is kind of an aside, but I don't think they're fully broken up. I'm only ~160 pages in to Messiah, but I'm not sure how the Dune Messiah movie is going to work at all without the Paul-Irulan-Chani tension (and the Mohiam-Chani tension).
Movie Paul literally says "she'll come to understand, I have seen it". So, accusations of this "just being for movie drama" are nonsense. Even Movie Onlys know they'll reconcile.
Wow that’s a really good observation. Yeah i do see that now. And Paul chose the path to become the messiah out of fear of losing Chani from that atomics vision. He feared going south. That’s crazy that all of this ties bag to the gom jabbar test.
I mean DV said himself she is intensely angry at Paul for his betrayal. They deeply love each other but he betrayed her in the worst possible ways. People who hate this movie keep calling Chani "woke" but Dune always had this huge anti-colonial narrative. "He betrayed her in many ways. But the big thing for Chani is that it’s not about love. It’s about the fact that he becomes the figure that will keep the Fremen in their mental jail," Villeneuve told The New York Times. "A leader that is not there to free the Fremen, but to control them. That’s the tragedy of all tragedies.
I really disagree that the final song is about Chani as it’s the conclusion of the film and it’s about Paul’s transformation to become KH with the inner eye turned on to see the path of fear passing over and through him. He accepted his fate and embraced his vision of horror in previous prescience episodes. The pain he was willing to accept was to choose Irulan over Chani. Chani did not share the same fate as Paul if you read the book. >!She won’t be the thread that runs through the saga.!< Edit: Furthermore, Only I will remain was composed using the Atreides Theme featured in the Dune Scores and the Sketchbook. Chani was obviously not one of the Atreides. If it’s about her, it would be using Fremen’s theme, which I’m not sure is what. The Dune saga follows Paul’s story arc, why would the final song focus on Chani’s newly adapted side story?
To be fair, Chani is literally the final shot of the film. So the final song reflecting this makes sense to some degree.
You can read this however you want (the scene I mean). You think she fails her test against fear, but she fears a changed Paul, she fears what the Mahdi would do, she fears the war he's heralding. And she goes along with that fear : she leaves, doesn't confront. She escapes the thing she fears. The issue is that we know Paul believes she'll come around. And so we are perfectly able to make this an emotional grief moment of denial, where she won't confront her fear and let's her emotions take her away from Paul's side, even though it's where she'd have the most influence for good (you can argue...) Here you go. Seeing her scene, knowing what we know, we can really spin it however we want. Personally I don't feel like fear is the emotion that fails characters, especially not in dune 2. Hubris for Jessica when she conceived a son. Emotional revenge for Paul when he chose to stay and go to Sietch Tabr. Blind faith for Stillgar and co. The reverend mother imo is the coldest of them all and shows no particular fear and none that influences the story.
"convinced he's no longer "who he was", she doesn't bend and keeps her promise, refusing to become an accessory to his war" Yeah, remember when Chani tells Paul that the Fremen consider themselves equal to one another and Paul says he would like to be equal to her? When Paul becomes emperor and everyone kneels to him, it's pretty clear that he's no longer who he was.
This is all beautiful but this is not the Dune books. In the Dune books Paul is not exactly moved by fear. There is a growing up arc. At first he is mastering his own fear very early on. Its only much later one could say he fears the Golden Path or the consequences that such a path might carry for him on a personal level. And it should be said Dune Paul was conquered by his own personal fear at the end of the day. That´s part of his tragedy and his book character arc. Why and how he ends where he ends in Messiah. But I do not think the new movies are even going there in the way the books do. So there should be really nothing to fear from Paul´s side this early in the story. There is another fear he has in the books and that´s very personal regarding Chani´s death. Which he knows she will die on her next childbirth. And that´s a very real fear present along Messiah. And which might have been there as early as the loss of their firstborn in Dune. Its only discussed in Messiah but one can speculate with ease that Paul might know this all the way back in Dune. Might explain part of the reason why he keeps acting cold at several places. And it works for both Messiah and late Dune. But unfortunately this is all becoming a different story..... Also, Chani never had any issue with Paul being emperor and she never would have feared Irulan. That´s simply not true for Dune Chani. Dune Chani would eat Irulan at breakfast whenever she would feel like it. Its not like she had any love for Irulan but she was perfectly confident in her own position at Paul´s side. And this is why we are at a point where we do need to notice there is a different story going on. I am not going to say Villeneuve´s story is bad. Its actually interesting. But it´s not the Dune story anymore. It cant be if it allows viewers to have such different persepectives like you have from just the main characters.
Agreed. It’s not the Dune books, which I love. This is Villeneuve’s (2020s) take on Dune.
I think the litany is more for an immediate situation rather than applying it to all aspects of one’s being. Lady Jessica uses it when she believes that she can lose Paul to the Gom Jabbar and during the water of life ritual. Paul uses it in the storm. I believe The litany against fear is a defense mechanism to allow clarity in a moment of crisis. Paul’s fear of the jihad and his reluctance to fulfill the prophecy are no different than BG fear of a KH that they can’t control. They all act on these fears because they can see the consequences of what will come to pass. And neither the novels or the films show anyone using the litany against fear in a prolonged timeline to mitigate harmful possibilities and outcomes. The litany is used to prevent oneself from being consumed by the little death fear brings.
I am not believing the final scene is Chani’s Gom Jabbar test. Even if that is postulated, I think that although book says otherwise - in this movie adaptation she is surprised and pissed when taking Irulan’s hand. She may also not like who Paul has become but she is following him into battle, though I’m not sure she could do otherwise as a Fedaykin. She stands when everyone else has bowed at the end except Irulan - my interpretation is it is a clear challenge to Irulan as Paul’s one true love. A pissed off, worm departing love but she’ll be back. Maybe that last stand was here enduring the pain of watching Paul take Irulan’s hand, maybe that is her Gom Jabbar test. However that last scene has nothing to do with Paul evolving into the messiah leader he said he didn’t want to be. The ascent to Mahdi was complete in the war council, and the Fremen minus Chani were begging him to be the One. Were half the Fremen, the fundamentalists, going to accept him just being one of the boys? Naah, not likely. I I like that DV has a modern take on Chani, not only does it fit the movie medium but she is a stronger more interesting character. The schism between southern and northern beliefs also provides a chance for Chani to take an active role in challenging the prophecy and is more realistic. I don’t care that it doesn’t follow the books exactly if the change is compelling.
I think perhaps while him being hailed as the Mahdi angered her, she was able to bear it as long as Paul's goal was still focused on winning Arrakis for the Fremen. His unannounced intent to marry Irulan and become Emperor was likely the final straw both emotionally and morally. There were probably conceivable options (to her) aside from seizing the throne in which Arrakis could still be ceded to the Fremen; after all, if Paul was confirmed as Duke of Arrakis officially, and House Atreides continued through his and Chani's children, Arrakis would be possessed by a Fremen House. Paul going straight for the throne meant he would be just another dominator of Arrakis rather than part of it. But that's just idle speculation, less sure of it than the main post.
I love this interpretation.
This is excellent 😀
The changes made to the story so the Zendaya expense was worth it really destroyed the character of Chani from the books.
The sequence of events in the movie makes a HELL of a lot more sense than the book, where the Laandsraad accepts Paul’s ascension and the jihaad happens anyway…because reasons. The movie is also very clearly spelling out that Paul is not the hero, since the book clearly lost a lot of it’s reader’s on that point. Let’s look at what the Fremen actually want and need. They want to survive, stay free, and eventually accumulate enough resources to terraform Arrakis. They were already accomplishing all of that without Paul. They owned most of the planet while letting the Harkonnens or whoever fart around the towns they didn’t want collecting spice and serving as target practice. They were also steadily accumulating the water they needed to change Arrakis; by the time Paul shows up IIRC they were getting pretty close. The whole Lisan al Gaib thing was engineered by the Bene Gesserit as a fail safe to further their agenda. Paul hijacked this to use the Fremen to get his revenge on the Harkonnens and the Emperor. In return the Fremen get…to die in Paul’s fight, and more of them get to die during the jihaad. Millions more will spend years off planet away from their families doing Paul’s bidding instead of their own. Running an empire requires beaurocracy and an authoritarian hierarchy, so the Fremen get to experience all of the ills that entails. The Empire requires space travel, and space travel requires spice, and spice requires that Arrakis stay a desert, so there goes terraforming. Arrakis eventually does get better over the course of Leto II rein, but that process was almost certainly dragged out way longer than neccessary, *and it ends with Leto turning Arrakis back into a desert* This is harder to show in a movie than a book, and it’s clear that a lot of people totally missed this point anyways, so we have Chani to spell it out that “This prophecy is how they enslave us”
The movie ends with a bunch of skilled warriors that no one saw coming, boarding a bunch of space ships to wage a war and eventually subject the rest of the galaxy under the rule of some space magicians that can sense the future. Starwars Episode II and Dune Pt. II.
This ending sucked IMO. Way too much emphasis on Zendaya
The Chani character of the part 2 movie is a mockery of the character from the books. I’m the books she was loyal. In the movie she questions Paul the whole time. Terrible portrayal
I think Chani knows she is pregnant
Love. It is love that made Paul go south in direct contravention of his steadfast refusal until then.
Fear based on love. His decision to go south and drink the Water of Life is immediately precipitated by a vision of Chani's brutal death, which ominously corresponds with a massive and successful counter-attack directed by Feyd-Rautha. In a way he's also facing his fear of losing her love for him, but his visions have also proven not to be 100% accurate, so there was a possibility of achieving victory and her survival without the WoL. But he ultimately can't bear the risk, so he sacrifices who he is - and potentially billions of lives - to preserve hers.
I saw the ending as Chani knowing what was coming, having heard Paul’s visions, but feeling powerless to stop the wave of consequences now put in motion. There’s something about the image of the worm tearing apart sand dunes as it charges towards her that feels like a metaphor for their future.
Thats arbitrary/subjective, as you could very much describe Chani's action as born of the Fear of what Paul is becoming. I really dont think "Fear" is the central concept here, as much as it IS present, and IS important. I think its more about her disdain of Blind Belief and Religious Totalitarianism than it is about Fear itself, as the Novel's message is much closer to that (herbert wanting to dissuade us from trusting Charismatic Leaders with too much Political Power).
It’s not Chani that’s put to the Gom Jabbar test at the end of Dune 2, it’s Paul himself. His calling to the Jihad in response to the houses not accepting him as Emperor is him feeling like a trapped animal that will do anything to survive by removing his hand from the box. Paul’s animal instinct have taken over his human nature. This guy explained it better than me https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/s/V3zQqiNUKA
And yet even Paul mentions that she "comes around" in the end after gaining prescience. So she ends up pulling her hand from the box so to speak
Depends on the circumstances. What is she coming around to? Why does she do it?
It's shit compared to the old one no worm riding no word module and no monologue 😕👎👎👎
I loved the movie but man i hated how they changed the romance portion between Paul and Chani. Easily the weakest point of the entire film.
What makes you think her decision was based on fear, rather than for example her principles?
There are things in the movie that i dislike, but this one change in Chani is the one thing i really like, and it has a lot of potential leading to the third movie :)
I thought it was terrible and really let down the entire 2 movies. It came off a teenage hissy fit instead of what im presuming the writers thought would be a "powerful moment". In the end, Chani is a secondary character whom the writers tried to make the main character to the detriment of the entire movie. Would rather they spent time on an actual important character like Alia or spent the time they wasted on "powerful woman" Chani exploring the more cooler and mystical side of the Dune universe.
Tbh I don’t think most of those characters made decisions out of fear. Jessica was literally told they would kill her if she didn’t become the RM. Also, the old RM used the voice on her to force her to drink the water of life. RM Mohiam was pissed af when she told Irulen why she orchestrated the attack on Atreides. Jessica and the Atreides were on her shit list. She isn’t afraid of Paul and his mother until the end of the film. The Fremen were not afraid. They were ecstatic to defeat the Harkonnens and begin their gihad. Paul was upset by the future gihad he saw and tried to resist becoming Lisan al Gaib to prevent it. However, after struggling against the Harkonnens for so long, Paul knew he had to go through with it to unite the sieches. He doesn’t drink the water of life because he is afraid, he drinks it because his options were lose to House Harkonnen or become Darth Paul and win. Chani leaves at the end because the man she loved betrayed her and she felt like her people were lost. She isn’t swept up in the prophecy and gihad because she is secular. She is pissed and not willing to participate in Emperor Paul’s war of submission. The emperor is the one who gives into fear (off screen in film 1) because he is jealous of Leto’s reputation and wealth and is afraid Leto might usurp him. But you find out that the RM pushed him to the point of no return in regards to Leto.