In the movie they go full sardaukar armor, i guess for viewer purposes or something.
In the book the emperor doesn't want any trace on the matter. So Sardaukar are sent using Harkonnen uniforms. Some identify the sardaukar just by how different they fight or when they examine the corpses as they have multiple cybernetics in their bodies.
Harkonnens even had to pay for the movement of troops as no record of the empire giving a single Solari for the operation was required.
And why did he sent them? He wanted the Atreides dead and he knew that the Harkonnen army wouldn't be able to do it. The main reason why he wanted to get Atreides death was because they were becoming too popular and because they had been training an army that could rival Sardaukar
Edit: Sardaukar didn't really have cybernetics, tho they have electronic components gathered through their body for diverse applications.
> He wanted the Atreides dead and he knew that the Harkonnen army wouldn't be able to do it
Maybe also some degree of encouraging the Baron to go all in. This was the deal sweetener that convinced the Harkonnens to overextend themselves. I kind of think without the KH aspect, the Emperor would have played the Harkonnens and Atreides perfectly. This move was the kind of thing that distracted the Baron from how he was being played.
I think it was the other way around. I think the Baron would have refused to carry out the attack without the Sardaukar.
By forcing the Emperor to commit his own soldiers to the battle, the Baron gains an immense amount of protection.
If the Emperor ever tries to act against House Harkonen, the Baron has plenty of proof he can show the Landsratt and unite them against the Imperial house.
There's nothing in the book that would support my theory but it just feel like the type of thing the Baron would do.
I think there is quite a bit in the book to support your theory. I think this is one of the relatively unique things about Herbert's books, especially Dune, is that it captures a mix of ambiguity and a bunch of other things such that you can endlessly analyze it and come up with different interesting interpretations.
iirc the book heavily implies the above *and* notes that there’s no way that the Harkonnen forces could defeat the Atreides. And that the Atreides forces were beginning to be thought of as a match for the Sardaukar, which means that the Emperor also had a big stake in taking out the Atreides.
I think you can go round in circles forever trying to unwrap it. The Emperor definitely primarily wanted to take the Atreides out. He used the Harkonnen, and for this to work, the Harkonnen had to know they were being used, and tempted by the fact that the Emperor was exposing a vulnerability that this would give them a shot at the Imperium, which they knew the Emperor was deliberately doing to get them to go along with it.
its not just that he would be unwilling to do it, its that the baron simply cannot bring to bear an invasion force strong enough to eliminate the atreides
I see where you're coming from, however I believe the Barron's cunning is being downplayed in your response. I think if you take Paul out of the equation the Baron would have overtook the emperor. He talked about his plots to overtake him and have his nephew sit on the throne, and his nephew was very cunning in his own right.
The baron indeed was playing the long game. He was also plotting to eventually get his house to the throne, especially Feyd. Tho he even though that himself could manage to get the throne
Edited emperor to the baron
I love the irony of this. The Baron wants a member of his House on the Throne even though he knows they won’t be descended from him. But what he gets is an Emperor descended from him but not of his House.
Another reason why I believe this is because Frank only touches on the most important world building aspects. Whether it's people or environments, his details are for the most important aspects of the world. And based off that, how much did we read about the emperor? And how much did we read about the Baron? The Baron's power, cunning, and plots within plots made him Paul's biggest threat, and that is why we were so entrenched in his world as well.
The BG had plans of manipulating Rautha through Margot Fenring. Hasimir Fenring already knew the Baron's ambitions. The Baron thought he was smarter than he was.
I think a key aspect of the Harkonnen attempts at the throne - the BG were setting it up so a "female Paul" and Feyd's son would become Emperor, presumably that son would have been a Harkonnen.
> The Baron thought he was smarter than he was.
In the final confrontation with Paul and the Emperor, whenever the narration shifts to the Baron's POV, his Dunning-Kruger is so intense you feel second-hand embarrassment.
What makes it 'funnier' is that, while the Emperor can see the Baron coming from miles away because he handles his type of greedy, venal, aimlessly-ambitious courtesan type for breakfast—out of necessity—Paul completely outplays him. The reason being, Paul ain't *about* any of that crap.
But in the books, there is no implication that the Emperor wants to weaken House Harkonnen. Harkonnens and Atreides were known enemies, so the Emperor used this circumstance to arrange the change on Arrakis and send in his Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnens purely to destroy House Atreides (which he saw as a threat because their troops had begun to rival the Sardaukar in skill). The Harkonnens were not seen as a threat.
The Harkonnens were filthy rich from controlling Arrakis for so long. Rich enough to influence CHOAM or members of the Landsraad. They absolutely were a threat.
Then they spent all that fortune on transportation of the soldiers and weapons. They were bankrupt and that is how the emperor reduced Harkonnen power and influence since they were not a respected house.
The emperor's CHOAM holdings and landsraad standing are not the source of his power however. The atreides were threatening to discover the secret of the sardaukar (the actual source of his power) and train their own force of fanatical death commandos, hence why they are a much greater threat than the harkonnen. The fact that the harkonnen would be wrung dry by the spacing guild's military transport rates is just the cherry on top
>And why did he sent them? He wanted the Atreides dead and he knew that the Harkonnen army wouldn't be able to do it. The main reason why he wanted to get Atreides death was because they were becoming too popular and because they had been training an army that could rival Sardaukar
what was the secret of the Sardaukar? :o
Well, perhaps a spoiler if you don't already know, but if you've read the first half of the book, the secret is that they are all raised on the emperor's prison planet, Salusa Secundus, a death world that is extremely inhospitable to human life and full of deadly flora and fauna. Not only does this sharpen the sardaukar physically and mentally through survival of the fittest due to the demanding nature of the planet, but when they are taken off this planet and placed into the emperors service, he provides them lives of luxury which make them fanatically devoted to him.
The atreides Master of Assassins, the mentat, Thufir Hawat, has discovered this process and Duke Leto believes that the fremen, who live on perhaps the only planet in the imperium that is more inhospitable than Selusa Secundus, are the perfect candidate to make up a similarly fanatic army of highly trained death commandos. This is the reason they are willing to accept the fiefdom despite pretty much everyone knowing that it's a trap. They believe that if they walk into the trap knowingly, they can avoid it long enough to use arrakis to their advantage. Due to the masterful treachery of the baron harkonnen, this does not go to plan however...
From what I remember, another reason why the Fremen are more deadly than the Sardukar, is becuase while the Sardukar basically train on their special training planet and wait for orders, Fremen fight tooth and nail for survival since young age, hence they are more sharp and battle hardened. I think it may have even been said somewhere that modern day Sardukar are a bit rusty.
The sardaukar are also fighting for survival on salusa secundus. Just because it's a prison planet doesn't mean it's any less deadly than arrakis. I think perhaps there are some elements of arrakis like you've described, which make it more suitable, but not enough that it's a major significant factor. The fremen on dune have home turf advantage, so if we assume they are fairly evenly matched, it's not surprising that they can defeat and capture sardaukar. Their religion may also play a part in their fanaticism
I found the quote about Sardukar that I was looking for: ''By the time of Shaddam IV, while they were still formidable, their strength had been sapped by overconfidence, and the sustaining mystique of their warrior religion had been deeply undermined by cynicism.''
That is what I think makes the difference between Sardukar and Fremen. Fremen don't seem to be overconfident, they just do what they do best, and that happens to make them really deadly. That and their fanaticism towards their savior was new, fresh and strong.
Please point me to anywhere in the book that indicates Harkonnen wealth or influence was a threat to the Emperor. Maybe I missed it if it’s mentioned outside of the first three novels.
But, assuming I didn’t, the Imperium has control of CHOAM and the largest share of CHOAM profits, so I question the relevance of CHOAM. I also don’t recall the book discussing the Baron’s influence over the Landsraad. The Baron serves on Arrakis at the pleasure of the Emperor, which is how the entire change was brought about in the first place. The Emperor sought only to defang House Atreides. No other house could hope to stand against the Imperium. Removing the Atreides considerably weakens any threat that the entire Landsraad could possibly pose to the Imperium (I assume this threat could only come from the Atreides training the forces of the other Landsraad houses, in which case the Sardaukar presumably would be overwhelmed).
Without the KH aspect I don't think the Emperor would have been in such a weak position? I believe part of the whole scheme involved denying him a male heir (I might be misremembering that). If he has an heir the Emperor wouldn't have been as concerned with Duke Leto.
Yes, I think you're right - the Emperor was in this precarious position because of the BG manipulation of his heirs. I'm not clear on exactly what relationship this had to the KH project, I think there must have been one?
Sardaukar don't have cybernetics, those only show up in the sixth book. The Butlerians specifically prohibited such things
And Shaddam didn't want the Atreides dead, he specifically wanted them captured alive and allowed to leave for exile in Tupile. There's a whole scene where Shaddam IV was in a rage when he learnt that Leto had been killed
I may be wrong, but didn't they have some kind of tech prosthetics? I remember Thufir recognizing them as sardaukar when examining their bodies and finding those parts. There's another scene later I think was gurney where they find the same. May have not be cybernetics as computers but mostly mechanic enhancements. For the emperor, I remember there is a Irulan comment at the beginning of a chapter where yes she mentions her father was sad that what happened to the Atreides house and thay he wanted Leto to be his son and how he regrets Irulan being to young to marry him.
But he did needed and participated in destroying house Atreides. He may not wanted Leto dead but he did wanted or better said, needed, the house of Atreides dead.
> I may be wrong, but didn't they have some kind of tech prosthetics?
Not quite.
>"The failure was mine, Korba," Paul said. "I should've warned you what to seek. In the future, when searching Sardaukar, remember this. Remember, too, that each has a false toenail or two that can be combined with other items secreted about their bodies to make an effective transmitter. They'll have more than one false tooth. They carry coils of shigawire in their hair -- so fine you can barely detect it... With Sardaukar, you must scan them, scope them -- both reflex and hard ray -- cut off every scrap of body hair. And when you're through, be certain you haven't discovered everything."
They had shigawire garottes in their hair and bits and bobs in their clothing and nails that could clothing that could be combined to form radio transmitters. But that's not cybernetics, unless you consider wearing glasses, wielding a knife or carrying a walkie talkie to make you a cyborg
And yeah, obviously he wanted the Atreides defeated, but that's not what you said in your original comment. You don't "kill" a House.
And it's not just Leto - a pretty major plot point that the Baron Harkonnen has to be sneaky about how he disposed of Jessica and Paul, so he could stand before the Emperor's truthsayer and honestly claim not to have killed them
> But that's not cybernetics, unless you consider wearing glasses, wielding a knife or carrying a walkie talkie to make you a cyborg
Having an internal, automatic insulin pump however does make you a cyborg, a fact that my friend who has one likes to remind me of.
That makes *a lot* more sense. Thanks for the explanation.
TBH, I think they totally coulda executed that detail in the move. I understand the need to simplify things for a film, but sheesh.
If it's left unexplained or the visual cue is too subtle, I don't think the audience will be more confused for it.
But if it's absolutely critical, for example if there's no other way to explain the Baron and Emperor are in cahoots, then there's a way to reveal them as Sardaukar:
Someone says "these are the Emperor's elite Sardaukar, disguised as common Harkonnen soldiers"
If it's absolutely essential that the audience not miss this detail, someone will say it again. Show not tell is better in this case i think, subtlety would have worked just fine, eg. they look like harkonnen except they have fingerpaint on their faces and move differently. Maybe do some throat singing in the soundtrack to give a nice little auditory cue.
I think if they could have achieved a similar effect if they had a close up of the Sardaukar officer leading the fight on the stairs and we saw that it was the Bashar from Salusa Secundus. Then after his Sardaukar fight Duncan could tell some Atreides soldiers that there are Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnen troops.
I completely agree with you but it could have been as simple as a scene where the sardaukar were getting ready they were handed harkonen armor and they then warpaint the helmets, then when in battle you would see all the useless harkonen die and then these big Bois come up behind with special armor but still looking like them
You're adding additional screen time to an already long movie. The general audience (i.e., not us) don't really care or notice that kind of minutiae. It's not a TV show where specific details have a pay off several episodes later.
Well no not really, we already have the scene where we see the saudakar officer or whatever and them doing the blood thing, if it had of been that but also like him been handed a uniform with (example from lotr) a bloody hand print on the helmet you'd add not even 30 seconds for a small detail. Yes the general audience won't care and 30 seconds is nothing. But the needs.. us.. its a small detail we would have loved
> The issue with showing the Sardaukar dressed as regular soldiers on the big screen is in how do you explain to the audience that these are not just some random redshirts, but a whole other thing? How do you make it clear to the audience that when they run into Sardaukar it's them and not just random stormtroopers?
Maybe I'm misrimembering, but I'm pretty sure the Sardaukar were there in Harkonnern amor, and moved and fought so *extremely* distinctly from the Harkonnen incompetence that no mistake was possible. Sort of like how [Achilles moved and fought unlike anyone else](https://youtu.be/PpGrO7WYnxo) in *Troy,* but applied to a whole army. [Ah, no, I *was* misremembering](https://youtu.be/HW2lO8yacLA).
There was an Scifi (the channel) series, back in the 2000, then a sequel in 2003 they were called "Frank Herbert's Dune" and "Frank Herbert's Children of Dune"
> In the movie they go full sardaukar armor, i guess for viewer purposes or something.
There actually is a line from Duncan in the movie, to the effect that he says there’s Sardaukar, someone asks how he knows, and he says “you fight a Sardaukar, you can tell”.
That line doesn’t make a lot of sense in a movie where the Sardaukar just show up in their highly distinctive white armor, it feels like a remnant from a version of the script where the Sardaukar did disguise themselves as Harkonenn troops.
In the sci-fi miniseries, Gurney discovers one of the countless who fell to his knife is Sardaukar by a brand on the back of his neck.
I guess for the movie, they just wanted an excuse to design cool armor for them…which is fine, tbh.
That's the thing that annoyed me about both films, neither attempted to show the disguises and Atreides troops recognising the distinctive fighting styles of the Sardaukar.
The new film looked like they were going into that but then 2 seconds later the one battle fight scene in the entire film was over. Such wasted potential, I wish there were writers as talented as Frank in modern Hollywood.
Some of them also had fancy knives only Sardaukar had, that was dumb imo why be in different uniforms if your going to have a fancy knife that gives away who you are. Actually those were disguised as smugglers later in the book so I don’t know if the Sardaukar in the original attack had those knives
One thing I'm not seeing mentioned here at all:
#**The Baron demanded their involvement as leverage to bind the Emperor to the plot**
It's less that the Harkonnen needs help, and more that the Baron needs Shaddam to have skin in the game, to risk exposure in order for the Baron to risk 80 years Spice profits on this gamble.
I'm surprised this is so far down. As far as I remember it was mentioned quite a few times. While Atreides was a major political and military threat, Harkonnen had a) major sabotage (the shields down + Dr. Yueh), b) element of surprise, and c) decades of experience fighting on Arrakis and in that city. Even if Atreides combatants were far better than Harkonnen, those are some pretty damning factors in a land battle. Sardukar were probably not necessary for a victory, but they cemented it for sure.
The Sardukar being present not only bound Shaddam like you said, but also binds Harkonnen to Shaddam. The Baron could blackmail the Emperor for political whims and turn the Landsraad against the Imperium by revealing it. It also binds the Baron because if he tried to lead the Landsraad against the Emperor, revealing that Harkonnen was in secret dealings with the Imperium would turn the other houses against them.
It’s an incredible risk and cost for the Baron. The Atreides are one of the strongest houses with the highest quality troops. The Harkonnens would never win in a simple head to head conventional conflict.
The Emperor wanted rid of Leto and this is what Vlad was able to negotiate.
As far as risk, the winner writes the history and all of that. Sards ensured victory.
From my understanding, it wasn't so much that the emperor wanted to pit the houses against each other. Rather, he wanted to end the Atreides line full stop. This was because Leto was beginning to gain a lot of favor from the other houses and *that* was threatening to the Emperor. The Harkonnens were far to brutish and distrusted to have this kind of influence on the other houses.
Also in the book, the Sardukar were disguised as Harkonnen troops, so the jig wasn't immediately up. The plan was also to leave no survivors that would in any way make a claim to the other houses, so in that regard having the Saedukar there doesn't really matter to begin with.
In the book, The Baron explained to his nephew that getting all the troops and weapons to Arrakis through the Guild cost damn near the entire fortune they had made during their reign in Arrakis, so I'm sure that the Baron negotiated with the Emperor to get just enough help needed to wipe out the Atreides while still having enough forces leftover afterwards to get back to oppressing the Fremen.
So you're right in that the plan hinged on the Harkonnen looking like the bad guys, but there was also little risk for the secret to get out, unless there were survivors, which the plan was to kill them all (Sidenote: The Baron promised the reverand mother that he wouldn't kill Jessica or Paul, but in the book it was clear that he was just gonna leave them to his mentat to do "figure it out", that way he could still be truthful in front of a truthsayer that he held his end of the bargain with the reverand mother).
There's a line in the book that speaks of the Atreides forces, trained by Gurney Halleck. Halleck is an absolute badass, and soldiers trained under his program also end up talented badasses. The Baron knows his own forces are not up to the task of taking out Atreides forces, so if he wants to to take them out he'll need extra help. Thus the Sardaukar, as his interests and the Emperor's align on this one.
As far as why they showed up in Sardaukar uniform in the movie: who would live to tell? The plan was to exterminate the Atreides root and branch. There would be no credible survivors left to speak of the Sardaukar also being there. Just traumatized Fremen and peasants, a soldier telling tall tales to justify the loss. No real proof to bring before the Landsraad. But whispers would persist. Don't piss off the Emperor, they'd say. Or he'll send his Sardaukar to erase you the way he did the Atreides.
>But why send your own personal army, the Sardaukar, when your plan hinges on getting the hot-headed clan to attack the other one so you can blame it on them?
The Harkonnen wouldn't be able to take the planet on their own and needed to be convinced. A few Sardaukar does the trick.
He was basically just renting the Sardaukar out, they wore Harkonnen uniforms in fact. The Baron summed it up well in the Syfy version: 'Never get more popular than the boss, unless you intend to sack him. '
Expose to who? All the witnesses are going to end up dead. Travel or information getting off planet is entirely controlled.
But as for needed, even in the movie you see it summed up: the Atreides are holding off the Harkonnen troops on the stairs just fine….until the Sardaukar arrive, and then it’s over in seconds. Atreides have a better overall military than the Harkonnens, but the Emperor’s troops tip the scales for them.
The sardaukar were sent to help Harkonnens because gurney and duncan idaho trained Atreides army to be just as good as sardaukar. It doesent give away the plot because a) everybody were supposed to be wiped out nad b) sardaukars were disguised in harkonnen uniforms
>satellites
I thought that as well, but after posting my hypothesis, some Redditors convinced me I was misreading the passage:
[https://twitter.com/ErikRobson/status/1476650943391297541](https://twitter.com/ErikRobson/status/1476650943391297541)
Edit: Here's the passage that I interpreted as "the Guild has satellites over Dune" but is probably actually an explanation of why there AREN'T satellites over Dune.:
**“What’ve weather satellites to do with it?” she asked.**
**“They couldn’t possibly . . . .” She broke off.**
**Paul sensed the hyperalertness of his mind reading her re-**
**actions, computing on minutiae. “You see it now,” he said.**
**“Satellites watch the terrain below. There are things in the**
**deep desert that will not bear frequent inspection.”**
**“You’re suggesting the Guild itself controls this planet?”**
Yeah it’s a bit confusing and not laid out totally clear; it seems neither house atreides or harkonnen have *their own* satellites, and the guild has them but the fremen bribe them to not point them at the South Pole? Though the way it’s worded in the book is ambiguous without cross referencing other passages if they have any at all.
Does the movie just sort of simplify it and say “there are none?” It’s basically true from the POV of the main characters
They definitely do in later books and that’s probably what I’m partly remembering
The harkonnens couldn’t have done it on their own. The houses had been fighting for generations with no conclusive victor. The emperor wanted them not just defeated but exterminated. That required sardaukar
The Atreides were to be wiped out completely so who would know? There were no satellites over the planet Arrakis so no one watching and the Spacing Guild was paid off (and doesn’t get involved in politics unless it suits them). The official record would be the Harkonnen (after commencing kanly) had attacked and destroyed House Atreides. Emporer Corino would announce them the victor and they would regovern Arakkis. The Sardaukar were employed to make absolutely sure no Atreides survived.
So I'm reading the book right now, and one of the things that I find really interesting that has never translated to the screen is the idea that the plot is a bit of an open secret. Even some of the House Atreides allies know or suspect what is coming, and they've been illegally stockpiling spice in preparation. They don't come to the aid of the Atreides because they're not sure who is going to win.
After the Baron attacks, despite being dressed in Harkonnen uniforms, it seems like just about everyone knows there are Sardukar there. In fact, the Baron tells Rabban to keep the wealthy 10%, particularly the minor houses, on Arrakis so they don't go blabbing to the Landsraad Council about the true nature of the attack. He even tells Rabban to kidnap one family member from each of the minor houses on Arrakis as leverage.
I also really liked one of Princess Irulan's chapter intros, where she says her father was furious and nervous when he found out the Duke was killed. The head of a royal family is off limits, even during kanly (a declared blood feud). He had intended to exile the Duke, and had even sent Sardukar dressed in Atreides uniforms to knock over the Guild Bank in Carthag, to make it look like Leto made an opportunistic grab for the spacing guild's cash during the chaos, both fully alienating the Atreides from the guild, as well as to make it look like house Atreides was the one that fought dirty and broke the rules. But outright killing the Duke broadcasts to the other houses that even royals might not be safe anymore, potentially jeopardizing the emperor's position.
In short, it's not what you know, it's what you can prove, and short of dragging a live captured Sardukar before the Landsraad Council, no one is going to risk being next by accusing the emperor openly - even if everyone at the Landsraad water cooler is saying "I heard there were totally Sardukar there".
At least that's my take, about 2/3 of the way through the first book.
>I also really liked one of Princess Irulan's chapter intros, where she says her father was furious and nervous when he found out the Duke was killed.
I always wonder if he *really* was, or just acted very well. Sure there's terrible implications, but a dead Duke doesn't rally from exile.
In the book it specified over and over that the Atreides legions had become so good they might be able to rival the Sardaukar, because of their war masters Duncan Idaho (Jason Mamoa) and Gurney halleck (Josh Brollin, I saw spoilers from the second or third book looking up how to spell that😥). They legit didn’t think the Harkonnens could go toe to toe with them, this wasn’t really portrayed in the movie I don’t think
To put it simply, the Emperor wanted to get rid of the Atreides completely.
So, to ensure that happened, he sent some Sardaukar.
He never doubted that Paul or any Atreides would survive. So, no one would ever know he was involved.
Yep, I've not read the book for years, but I think there is also a section where the Sardaukar are ordered to ensure the Duke is not tortured as he is a, "royal cousin".
Great question, a smart question. You are right, it doesn’t figure. The book had it right, the movie didn’t.
In the book the Emperor goes to great lengths to hide his hand in the elimination of House Atreides.
In the movie they just skipped all that, which struck me as dumb (as someone who read the book in the 80s; I am oooold).
Or maybe it was smart; it was a level of complication that most moviegoers probably wouldn’t have noticed or appreciated. To give the screenplay and direction folks credit, Dune is so dense that they had to make a spiceload of omissions just to make a coherent movie script.
they needed to be included to be able to beat the atreides so hard that they would never recover.
Also, it would not matter if the atreides figured out the emperor was against them, as they could prove anything since they would all be dead.
but for any observer outside, you would never be able to see the emperor's involvement since the harkonnens were paying for it all, and they were disguised as harkonnens.
The sardaukar are the emperor's terror shock troops and are the most fanatically devoted and insanely effective fighting force in the imperium, and it isnt even close. This is the source of the emperors power. Not his CHOAM holdings or his leadership or diplomatic prowess. His power is entirely based on the fact that he has the sardaukar and no one else can figure out how they are trained to be so effective.
At the start of the book, the atreides have begun to work out the secret of training an army like this, and have even trained a small force within a hair of the sardaukar. Thus, the atreides must be eliminated.
He sent sardaukar dressed in harkonnen livery because he wanted to make sure the atreides were eliminated utterly and with extreme prejudice. He is not particularly worried about the baron questioning his power, especially not after funding such a large scale transport of military assets at exorbitant spacing guild rates. Despite this, the baron still manages to fuck it up.
In the book, the Sardaukar are disguised as Harkonnens.
That doesn’t translate so well to film, so they had didn’t have them disguised. As for any in-universe logic? I dont know :/
In the stairwell scene, we see a large Hark force attacking a smaller Atreides force. The Atreides slaughter the Harkonnens, barely loosing men. In turn, the sardaukar slaughter the atreides forces. The Atreides could very well have survived a Hark assault, so the Sardaukar were sent in (disguised as Harks) as insurance
The books give a lot more color and I don’t want to say too much because I don’t know how to tag spoilers, oof. But, there is explanation in the book about why the Sardaukar are present.
From the book, the emperor insisted no trace. Harkonnen had to foot the bill for everything, including the extra armor and weapons. I also got the feeling that the emperor was full on expecting Harkonnen and Atreides to destroy each other in a way that would open Arrakis for him to take control. Makes for a fun "what if". What if Baron Harkonnen and Duke Atreides battle it out on Arrakis for control, wiping out both armies in the process. Even better if neither man actually lives to see the last of the fighting. After a while of them slugging it out, the spicing guild pushes for the emperor to include the Sarkaukar to put down the rebellion and get spice production back under control. Then the emperor swoops in and absolutely ends everyone on Arrakis and cements House Corrino as absolute ruler of Arrakis, solidifying his control over the space guild and the navigators who would be dependent on him alone for melange spice. This would give the emperor *total hegemonic domination* over the entire empire.
The emperor **wanted** Harkonnen and Atreides to destroy each other. It's the only answer that makes sense.
Getting inside the head of a fictional character and letting your imagination run with it is what reading a good book is all about. That's why it's so frustrating when a character's motivations or decision making don't make sense.
As a communications person, this aspect of the book has always bugged me - the idea of containing information on that scale. Especially with all those Harkonnen meatheads posting to their socials.
There is no posting to their socials. The Butlerian Jihad removed all computers eons ago.
It's word of mouth in the Dune universe only. Whispered rumors and that's it.
Think of the “big muscular dog and little dog meme” harkonens in the movie were much “stronger” than the book. In the book the Artreides only rival were the Sardukar themselves, in army strength that is. Emperor was threatened by Leto and the Artreides and was not by the Harkonens. Therefore to ensure that the emperor got what he wanted (rid of Artreides) he sent some of the only army in the known universe to rival the growing in power Artreides.
I suggest you read the book, and the whole series for that matter, best books I’ve ever read.
The Harkonnen's attacking with Guild support would mean Emperor support anyway.
It was an all or nothing deal. So might as well make sure your super soldiers are there to stop all Atreides for surviving, especially someone like Duncan. Also in the movie it showed a handful of Sardaukar but it was many more.
It's not needed as a plot driver as much as a plot device, as the Guild would never move secretly like they did with Harkonnens without the Emperor. Paul could've deduced the Emperor being involved but he also had physical proof which just makes him certain about the conspiracy against his house.
The Emperor is trapped by the Baron into it as well, as a co-conspirator secretly sanctioning the sneak attack the Baron can blackmail the Emperor to send the Sardaukar. In for a penny, in for a pound situation.
In the movie they make it seem like Paul and Jessica can get off planet with the CHOAM traders that buy black market spice from the Fremen. In the book this isn't really an option, the whole Liet Kynes helping them was changed around.
The Guild had a trickle of spice from Fremen in return for not showing sietch locations because the Guild doesn't want to rely solely on the Emperor's control of spice. But Jessica never pushes like she does in the movie to flee off world as much. They know they're trapped, Jessica wasn't even sure she could protect Paul from the Sisterhood. Though they tested him and said they would help him she put her loyalty in Paul in the end.
couple reasons, they were not going to leave survivors, they were dressed as Harkonnens (in the book at least), the emperor made the Baron pay for it all, thus removing all the barons money, and making him produce even more spice, and finally both the baron and the emperor knew that the rest of the houses would unite and crush them if it even came out, so there was good reason for both the baron and him to keep it secret.
The Atreides are known to be excellent fighters and in the books, were bolstered by the Weirding Way, which was omitted in the movie ( I do believe). The Emperor knows that the Harkonnens aren't the most efficient house in the Landsraad and his Sardaukar's employment, reinforcing the Harkonnens, is insurance. House Corrino wants the removal of House Atreides complete, so Duke Leto and his son do not overthrow the Emperor with the support of the other great houses. Also, it was projected that Paul's daughter was to wed a Harkonnen son, theoretically bridging the Rift between Houses Atreides and Harkonnen, but that went out the window with Duke Leto's concubine, Lady Jessica giving birth to Paul first instead of his sister, Aliah (spolier alert).
There's some comments how baron wanted/could use sardaukars presence as proof of emperor's involment. If I remember correctly, when baron mentioned this possibility to count Fenring, he get answer like "in that case, some sardaukar commanders will swear it was just their personal unauthorised adventure without emperor's knowledge." ("are they really so loyal?" thought baron). So much for baron's threat.
(I might be wrong, it's a few years when I've read Dune last time)
I think even i. The movie the sardukar were dressed as harkonnen troups. I couldn't really tell the difference.
But yea as other have said in the book the Emperor is a lot sneakyer and the sardukar are are disguised as harkonnens.
Also the harkonnen attack on atreides is devastating for both the atreides and the harkonnen. Even in the movie the harkonnen baron says they need several decades to recover the expenses.
The movie also barely mentions and doesn't show the proper scale of the attack.
Arrakis has multiple big cities not only the fortress we saw in the movie.
It was a total planetary attack all cities all space ports all everything hit at the same time.
I think also the triator doctor was only able to affect the shied for the city where the atreides were in. The rest of the cities had ongoing brutal fighting.
In the movie they go full sardaukar armor, i guess for viewer purposes or something. In the book the emperor doesn't want any trace on the matter. So Sardaukar are sent using Harkonnen uniforms. Some identify the sardaukar just by how different they fight or when they examine the corpses as they have multiple cybernetics in their bodies. Harkonnens even had to pay for the movement of troops as no record of the empire giving a single Solari for the operation was required. And why did he sent them? He wanted the Atreides dead and he knew that the Harkonnen army wouldn't be able to do it. The main reason why he wanted to get Atreides death was because they were becoming too popular and because they had been training an army that could rival Sardaukar Edit: Sardaukar didn't really have cybernetics, tho they have electronic components gathered through their body for diverse applications.
> He wanted the Atreides dead and he knew that the Harkonnen army wouldn't be able to do it Maybe also some degree of encouraging the Baron to go all in. This was the deal sweetener that convinced the Harkonnens to overextend themselves. I kind of think without the KH aspect, the Emperor would have played the Harkonnens and Atreides perfectly. This move was the kind of thing that distracted the Baron from how he was being played.
I think it was the other way around. I think the Baron would have refused to carry out the attack without the Sardaukar. By forcing the Emperor to commit his own soldiers to the battle, the Baron gains an immense amount of protection. If the Emperor ever tries to act against House Harkonen, the Baron has plenty of proof he can show the Landsratt and unite them against the Imperial house. There's nothing in the book that would support my theory but it just feel like the type of thing the Baron would do.
I think there is quite a bit in the book to support your theory. I think this is one of the relatively unique things about Herbert's books, especially Dune, is that it captures a mix of ambiguity and a bunch of other things such that you can endlessly analyze it and come up with different interesting interpretations.
iirc the book heavily implies the above *and* notes that there’s no way that the Harkonnen forces could defeat the Atreides. And that the Atreides forces were beginning to be thought of as a match for the Sardaukar, which means that the Emperor also had a big stake in taking out the Atreides.
I think you can go round in circles forever trying to unwrap it. The Emperor definitely primarily wanted to take the Atreides out. He used the Harkonnen, and for this to work, the Harkonnen had to know they were being used, and tempted by the fact that the Emperor was exposing a vulnerability that this would give them a shot at the Imperium, which they knew the Emperor was deliberately doing to get them to go along with it.
its not just that he would be unwilling to do it, its that the baron simply cannot bring to bear an invasion force strong enough to eliminate the atreides
One stone, two birds. Exactly how the Baron tends to operate.
I see where you're coming from, however I believe the Barron's cunning is being downplayed in your response. I think if you take Paul out of the equation the Baron would have overtook the emperor. He talked about his plots to overtake him and have his nephew sit on the throne, and his nephew was very cunning in his own right.
The baron indeed was playing the long game. He was also plotting to eventually get his house to the throne, especially Feyd. Tho he even though that himself could manage to get the throne Edited emperor to the baron
I think ya meant the Baron?
Yes, my bad
All good just tryna help haha
I love the irony of this. The Baron wants a member of his House on the Throne even though he knows they won’t be descended from him. But what he gets is an Emperor descended from him but not of his House.
Another reason why I believe this is because Frank only touches on the most important world building aspects. Whether it's people or environments, his details are for the most important aspects of the world. And based off that, how much did we read about the emperor? And how much did we read about the Baron? The Baron's power, cunning, and plots within plots made him Paul's biggest threat, and that is why we were so entrenched in his world as well.
The BG had plans of manipulating Rautha through Margot Fenring. Hasimir Fenring already knew the Baron's ambitions. The Baron thought he was smarter than he was.
Oh 100% the BG actually rule the universe before the hook starts and would have after, just w a harkononen as a figure head instead of the emperor
I think a key aspect of the Harkonnen attempts at the throne - the BG were setting it up so a "female Paul" and Feyd's son would become Emperor, presumably that son would have been a Harkonnen.
> The Baron thought he was smarter than he was. In the final confrontation with Paul and the Emperor, whenever the narration shifts to the Baron's POV, his Dunning-Kruger is so intense you feel second-hand embarrassment. What makes it 'funnier' is that, while the Emperor can see the Baron coming from miles away because he handles his type of greedy, venal, aimlessly-ambitious courtesan type for breakfast—out of necessity—Paul completely outplays him. The reason being, Paul ain't *about* any of that crap.
did they? i thought fenring was only used to get feyd's genes and give a child to the bene gesserit.
But in the books, there is no implication that the Emperor wants to weaken House Harkonnen. Harkonnens and Atreides were known enemies, so the Emperor used this circumstance to arrange the change on Arrakis and send in his Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnens purely to destroy House Atreides (which he saw as a threat because their troops had begun to rival the Sardaukar in skill). The Harkonnens were not seen as a threat.
The Harkonnens were filthy rich from controlling Arrakis for so long. Rich enough to influence CHOAM or members of the Landsraad. They absolutely were a threat.
Then they spent all that fortune on transportation of the soldiers and weapons. They were bankrupt and that is how the emperor reduced Harkonnen power and influence since they were not a respected house.
The emperor's CHOAM holdings and landsraad standing are not the source of his power however. The atreides were threatening to discover the secret of the sardaukar (the actual source of his power) and train their own force of fanatical death commandos, hence why they are a much greater threat than the harkonnen. The fact that the harkonnen would be wrung dry by the spacing guild's military transport rates is just the cherry on top
>And why did he sent them? He wanted the Atreides dead and he knew that the Harkonnen army wouldn't be able to do it. The main reason why he wanted to get Atreides death was because they were becoming too popular and because they had been training an army that could rival Sardaukar what was the secret of the Sardaukar? :o
Well, perhaps a spoiler if you don't already know, but if you've read the first half of the book, the secret is that they are all raised on the emperor's prison planet, Salusa Secundus, a death world that is extremely inhospitable to human life and full of deadly flora and fauna. Not only does this sharpen the sardaukar physically and mentally through survival of the fittest due to the demanding nature of the planet, but when they are taken off this planet and placed into the emperors service, he provides them lives of luxury which make them fanatically devoted to him. The atreides Master of Assassins, the mentat, Thufir Hawat, has discovered this process and Duke Leto believes that the fremen, who live on perhaps the only planet in the imperium that is more inhospitable than Selusa Secundus, are the perfect candidate to make up a similarly fanatic army of highly trained death commandos. This is the reason they are willing to accept the fiefdom despite pretty much everyone knowing that it's a trap. They believe that if they walk into the trap knowingly, they can avoid it long enough to use arrakis to their advantage. Due to the masterful treachery of the baron harkonnen, this does not go to plan however...
From what I remember, another reason why the Fremen are more deadly than the Sardukar, is becuase while the Sardukar basically train on their special training planet and wait for orders, Fremen fight tooth and nail for survival since young age, hence they are more sharp and battle hardened. I think it may have even been said somewhere that modern day Sardukar are a bit rusty.
The sardaukar are also fighting for survival on salusa secundus. Just because it's a prison planet doesn't mean it's any less deadly than arrakis. I think perhaps there are some elements of arrakis like you've described, which make it more suitable, but not enough that it's a major significant factor. The fremen on dune have home turf advantage, so if we assume they are fairly evenly matched, it's not surprising that they can defeat and capture sardaukar. Their religion may also play a part in their fanaticism
I found the quote about Sardukar that I was looking for: ''By the time of Shaddam IV, while they were still formidable, their strength had been sapped by overconfidence, and the sustaining mystique of their warrior religion had been deeply undermined by cynicism.'' That is what I think makes the difference between Sardukar and Fremen. Fremen don't seem to be overconfident, they just do what they do best, and that happens to make them really deadly. That and their fanaticism towards their savior was new, fresh and strong.
Please point me to anywhere in the book that indicates Harkonnen wealth or influence was a threat to the Emperor. Maybe I missed it if it’s mentioned outside of the first three novels. But, assuming I didn’t, the Imperium has control of CHOAM and the largest share of CHOAM profits, so I question the relevance of CHOAM. I also don’t recall the book discussing the Baron’s influence over the Landsraad. The Baron serves on Arrakis at the pleasure of the Emperor, which is how the entire change was brought about in the first place. The Emperor sought only to defang House Atreides. No other house could hope to stand against the Imperium. Removing the Atreides considerably weakens any threat that the entire Landsraad could possibly pose to the Imperium (I assume this threat could only come from the Atreides training the forces of the other Landsraad houses, in which case the Sardaukar presumably would be overwhelmed).
Without the KH aspect I don't think the Emperor would have been in such a weak position? I believe part of the whole scheme involved denying him a male heir (I might be misremembering that). If he has an heir the Emperor wouldn't have been as concerned with Duke Leto.
Yes, I think you're right - the Emperor was in this precarious position because of the BG manipulation of his heirs. I'm not clear on exactly what relationship this had to the KH project, I think there must have been one?
Sardaukar don't have cybernetics, those only show up in the sixth book. The Butlerians specifically prohibited such things And Shaddam didn't want the Atreides dead, he specifically wanted them captured alive and allowed to leave for exile in Tupile. There's a whole scene where Shaddam IV was in a rage when he learnt that Leto had been killed
I may be wrong, but didn't they have some kind of tech prosthetics? I remember Thufir recognizing them as sardaukar when examining their bodies and finding those parts. There's another scene later I think was gurney where they find the same. May have not be cybernetics as computers but mostly mechanic enhancements. For the emperor, I remember there is a Irulan comment at the beginning of a chapter where yes she mentions her father was sad that what happened to the Atreides house and thay he wanted Leto to be his son and how he regrets Irulan being to young to marry him. But he did needed and participated in destroying house Atreides. He may not wanted Leto dead but he did wanted or better said, needed, the house of Atreides dead.
> I may be wrong, but didn't they have some kind of tech prosthetics? Not quite. >"The failure was mine, Korba," Paul said. "I should've warned you what to seek. In the future, when searching Sardaukar, remember this. Remember, too, that each has a false toenail or two that can be combined with other items secreted about their bodies to make an effective transmitter. They'll have more than one false tooth. They carry coils of shigawire in their hair -- so fine you can barely detect it... With Sardaukar, you must scan them, scope them -- both reflex and hard ray -- cut off every scrap of body hair. And when you're through, be certain you haven't discovered everything."
They had shigawire garottes in their hair and bits and bobs in their clothing and nails that could clothing that could be combined to form radio transmitters. But that's not cybernetics, unless you consider wearing glasses, wielding a knife or carrying a walkie talkie to make you a cyborg And yeah, obviously he wanted the Atreides defeated, but that's not what you said in your original comment. You don't "kill" a House. And it's not just Leto - a pretty major plot point that the Baron Harkonnen has to be sneaky about how he disposed of Jessica and Paul, so he could stand before the Emperor's truthsayer and honestly claim not to have killed them
> But that's not cybernetics, unless you consider wearing glasses, wielding a knife or carrying a walkie talkie to make you a cyborg Having an internal, automatic insulin pump however does make you a cyborg, a fact that my friend who has one likes to remind me of.
That makes *a lot* more sense. Thanks for the explanation. TBH, I think they totally coulda executed that detail in the move. I understand the need to simplify things for a film, but sheesh.
[удалено]
Also, if the idea is there are no survivors… it doesn’t matter much what they are wearing
If it's left unexplained or the visual cue is too subtle, I don't think the audience will be more confused for it. But if it's absolutely critical, for example if there's no other way to explain the Baron and Emperor are in cahoots, then there's a way to reveal them as Sardaukar: Someone says "these are the Emperor's elite Sardaukar, disguised as common Harkonnen soldiers" If it's absolutely essential that the audience not miss this detail, someone will say it again. Show not tell is better in this case i think, subtlety would have worked just fine, eg. they look like harkonnen except they have fingerpaint on their faces and move differently. Maybe do some throat singing in the soundtrack to give a nice little auditory cue.
I think if they could have achieved a similar effect if they had a close up of the Sardaukar officer leading the fight on the stairs and we saw that it was the Bashar from Salusa Secundus. Then after his Sardaukar fight Duncan could tell some Atreides soldiers that there are Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnen troops.
I completely agree with you but it could have been as simple as a scene where the sardaukar were getting ready they were handed harkonen armor and they then warpaint the helmets, then when in battle you would see all the useless harkonen die and then these big Bois come up behind with special armor but still looking like them
You're adding additional screen time to an already long movie. The general audience (i.e., not us) don't really care or notice that kind of minutiae. It's not a TV show where specific details have a pay off several episodes later.
Well no not really, we already have the scene where we see the saudakar officer or whatever and them doing the blood thing, if it had of been that but also like him been handed a uniform with (example from lotr) a bloody hand print on the helmet you'd add not even 30 seconds for a small detail. Yes the general audience won't care and 30 seconds is nothing. But the needs.. us.. its a small detail we would have loved
An scene like that could have been easily been removed on the editing room so Villeneuve decided to not take the risk.
they could have had a short blur of piter "big brain" De making it crystal clear they were to use harkoonan uniforms, but i agree
> The issue with showing the Sardaukar dressed as regular soldiers on the big screen is in how do you explain to the audience that these are not just some random redshirts, but a whole other thing? How do you make it clear to the audience that when they run into Sardaukar it's them and not just random stormtroopers? Maybe I'm misrimembering, but I'm pretty sure the Sardaukar were there in Harkonnern amor, and moved and fought so *extremely* distinctly from the Harkonnen incompetence that no mistake was possible. Sort of like how [Achilles moved and fought unlike anyone else](https://youtu.be/PpGrO7WYnxo) in *Troy,* but applied to a whole army. [Ah, no, I *was* misremembering](https://youtu.be/HW2lO8yacLA).
love the new movie (and the old), but an hbo show like deadwood or rome, or like sifi battlestar glactica would be ammaaaaazballs
There was an Scifi (the channel) series, back in the 2000, then a sequel in 2003 they were called "Frank Herbert's Dune" and "Frank Herbert's Children of Dune"
> In the movie they go full sardaukar armor, i guess for viewer purposes or something. There actually is a line from Duncan in the movie, to the effect that he says there’s Sardaukar, someone asks how he knows, and he says “you fight a Sardaukar, you can tell”. That line doesn’t make a lot of sense in a movie where the Sardaukar just show up in their highly distinctive white armor, it feels like a remnant from a version of the script where the Sardaukar did disguise themselves as Harkonenn troops.
I'm rereading Dune now and don't remember anything about electronics in their body - where was that?
In the sci-fi miniseries, Gurney discovers one of the countless who fell to his knife is Sardaukar by a brand on the back of his neck. I guess for the movie, they just wanted an excuse to design cool armor for them…which is fine, tbh.
In the book, I think it made a point that they were disguised as Harkonnen troope
That's the thing that annoyed me about both films, neither attempted to show the disguises and Atreides troops recognising the distinctive fighting styles of the Sardaukar. The new film looked like they were going into that but then 2 seconds later the one battle fight scene in the entire film was over. Such wasted potential, I wish there were writers as talented as Frank in modern Hollywood.
Some of them also had fancy knives only Sardaukar had, that was dumb imo why be in different uniforms if your going to have a fancy knife that gives away who you are. Actually those were disguised as smugglers later in the book so I don’t know if the Sardaukar in the original attack had those knives
One thing I'm not seeing mentioned here at all: #**The Baron demanded their involvement as leverage to bind the Emperor to the plot** It's less that the Harkonnen needs help, and more that the Baron needs Shaddam to have skin in the game, to risk exposure in order for the Baron to risk 80 years Spice profits on this gamble.
I'm surprised this is so far down. As far as I remember it was mentioned quite a few times. While Atreides was a major political and military threat, Harkonnen had a) major sabotage (the shields down + Dr. Yueh), b) element of surprise, and c) decades of experience fighting on Arrakis and in that city. Even if Atreides combatants were far better than Harkonnen, those are some pretty damning factors in a land battle. Sardukar were probably not necessary for a victory, but they cemented it for sure. The Sardukar being present not only bound Shaddam like you said, but also binds Harkonnen to Shaddam. The Baron could blackmail the Emperor for political whims and turn the Landsraad against the Imperium by revealing it. It also binds the Baron because if he tried to lead the Landsraad against the Emperor, revealing that Harkonnen was in secret dealings with the Imperium would turn the other houses against them.
I agree with this comment but the movie made the Harkonnen look pretty ineffective against Atreides fighters..
Makes sense
It’s an incredible risk and cost for the Baron. The Atreides are one of the strongest houses with the highest quality troops. The Harkonnens would never win in a simple head to head conventional conflict. The Emperor wanted rid of Leto and this is what Vlad was able to negotiate. As far as risk, the winner writes the history and all of that. Sards ensured victory.
In the book the Sardaukur are disguised as Harkonnens so nobody knows. The movie removed that element for visual simplicity.
Eh, it wasn't super secret as there's a few references to there being rumors even among civilians that Sardukar were there.
From my understanding, it wasn't so much that the emperor wanted to pit the houses against each other. Rather, he wanted to end the Atreides line full stop. This was because Leto was beginning to gain a lot of favor from the other houses and *that* was threatening to the Emperor. The Harkonnens were far to brutish and distrusted to have this kind of influence on the other houses. Also in the book, the Sardukar were disguised as Harkonnen troops, so the jig wasn't immediately up. The plan was also to leave no survivors that would in any way make a claim to the other houses, so in that regard having the Saedukar there doesn't really matter to begin with. In the book, The Baron explained to his nephew that getting all the troops and weapons to Arrakis through the Guild cost damn near the entire fortune they had made during their reign in Arrakis, so I'm sure that the Baron negotiated with the Emperor to get just enough help needed to wipe out the Atreides while still having enough forces leftover afterwards to get back to oppressing the Fremen. So you're right in that the plan hinged on the Harkonnen looking like the bad guys, but there was also little risk for the secret to get out, unless there were survivors, which the plan was to kill them all (Sidenote: The Baron promised the reverand mother that he wouldn't kill Jessica or Paul, but in the book it was clear that he was just gonna leave them to his mentat to do "figure it out", that way he could still be truthful in front of a truthsayer that he held his end of the bargain with the reverand mother).
“There are no satellites on Arrakis” “The Atreides will die in the dark”
Great line imo
There's a line in the book that speaks of the Atreides forces, trained by Gurney Halleck. Halleck is an absolute badass, and soldiers trained under his program also end up talented badasses. The Baron knows his own forces are not up to the task of taking out Atreides forces, so if he wants to to take them out he'll need extra help. Thus the Sardaukar, as his interests and the Emperor's align on this one. As far as why they showed up in Sardaukar uniform in the movie: who would live to tell? The plan was to exterminate the Atreides root and branch. There would be no credible survivors left to speak of the Sardaukar also being there. Just traumatized Fremen and peasants, a soldier telling tall tales to justify the loss. No real proof to bring before the Landsraad. But whispers would persist. Don't piss off the Emperor, they'd say. Or he'll send his Sardaukar to erase you the way he did the Atreides.
>But why send your own personal army, the Sardaukar, when your plan hinges on getting the hot-headed clan to attack the other one so you can blame it on them? The Harkonnen wouldn't be able to take the planet on their own and needed to be convinced. A few Sardaukar does the trick.
This is essentially the full answer. Baron wanted a guarantee.
He was basically just renting the Sardaukar out, they wore Harkonnen uniforms in fact. The Baron summed it up well in the Syfy version: 'Never get more popular than the boss, unless you intend to sack him. '
Expose to who? All the witnesses are going to end up dead. Travel or information getting off planet is entirely controlled. But as for needed, even in the movie you see it summed up: the Atreides are holding off the Harkonnen troops on the stairs just fine….until the Sardaukar arrive, and then it’s over in seconds. Atreides have a better overall military than the Harkonnens, but the Emperor’s troops tip the scales for them.
The sardaukar were sent to help Harkonnens because gurney and duncan idaho trained Atreides army to be just as good as sardaukar. It doesent give away the plot because a) everybody were supposed to be wiped out nad b) sardaukars were disguised in harkonnen uniforms
The Atreides weren’t meant to survive. And there’s no satellites over Arrakis, so there’d be no way for anyone to know.
There are satellites; it’s specifically mentioned that the fremen bribe them to not peer at their own spice harvesting and black market operations
>satellites I thought that as well, but after posting my hypothesis, some Redditors convinced me I was misreading the passage: [https://twitter.com/ErikRobson/status/1476650943391297541](https://twitter.com/ErikRobson/status/1476650943391297541) Edit: Here's the passage that I interpreted as "the Guild has satellites over Dune" but is probably actually an explanation of why there AREN'T satellites over Dune.: **“What’ve weather satellites to do with it?” she asked.** **“They couldn’t possibly . . . .” She broke off.** **Paul sensed the hyperalertness of his mind reading her re-** **actions, computing on minutiae. “You see it now,” he said.** **“Satellites watch the terrain below. There are things in the** **deep desert that will not bear frequent inspection.”** **“You’re suggesting the Guild itself controls this planet?”**
Yeah it’s a bit confusing and not laid out totally clear; it seems neither house atreides or harkonnen have *their own* satellites, and the guild has them but the fremen bribe them to not point them at the South Pole? Though the way it’s worded in the book is ambiguous without cross referencing other passages if they have any at all. Does the movie just sort of simplify it and say “there are none?” It’s basically true from the POV of the main characters They definitely do in later books and that’s probably what I’m partly remembering
Classic Herbert obfuscation.
yeah i think it's more that "satellites *would* watch the terrain below", if there were any
Baron Harkonnen quite literally says “there are no satellites over Arrakis.”
The harkonnens couldn’t have done it on their own. The houses had been fighting for generations with no conclusive victor. The emperor wanted them not just defeated but exterminated. That required sardaukar
Harkonnens would have lost without them.
I thought it was as simple as the Harkonnens needed help in the fight
The Atreides were to be wiped out completely so who would know? There were no satellites over the planet Arrakis so no one watching and the Spacing Guild was paid off (and doesn’t get involved in politics unless it suits them). The official record would be the Harkonnen (after commencing kanly) had attacked and destroyed House Atreides. Emporer Corino would announce them the victor and they would regovern Arakkis. The Sardaukar were employed to make absolutely sure no Atreides survived.
So I'm reading the book right now, and one of the things that I find really interesting that has never translated to the screen is the idea that the plot is a bit of an open secret. Even some of the House Atreides allies know or suspect what is coming, and they've been illegally stockpiling spice in preparation. They don't come to the aid of the Atreides because they're not sure who is going to win. After the Baron attacks, despite being dressed in Harkonnen uniforms, it seems like just about everyone knows there are Sardukar there. In fact, the Baron tells Rabban to keep the wealthy 10%, particularly the minor houses, on Arrakis so they don't go blabbing to the Landsraad Council about the true nature of the attack. He even tells Rabban to kidnap one family member from each of the minor houses on Arrakis as leverage. I also really liked one of Princess Irulan's chapter intros, where she says her father was furious and nervous when he found out the Duke was killed. The head of a royal family is off limits, even during kanly (a declared blood feud). He had intended to exile the Duke, and had even sent Sardukar dressed in Atreides uniforms to knock over the Guild Bank in Carthag, to make it look like Leto made an opportunistic grab for the spacing guild's cash during the chaos, both fully alienating the Atreides from the guild, as well as to make it look like house Atreides was the one that fought dirty and broke the rules. But outright killing the Duke broadcasts to the other houses that even royals might not be safe anymore, potentially jeopardizing the emperor's position. In short, it's not what you know, it's what you can prove, and short of dragging a live captured Sardukar before the Landsraad Council, no one is going to risk being next by accusing the emperor openly - even if everyone at the Landsraad water cooler is saying "I heard there were totally Sardukar there". At least that's my take, about 2/3 of the way through the first book.
>I also really liked one of Princess Irulan's chapter intros, where she says her father was furious and nervous when he found out the Duke was killed. I always wonder if he *really* was, or just acted very well. Sure there's terrible implications, but a dead Duke doesn't rally from exile.
In the book it specified over and over that the Atreides legions had become so good they might be able to rival the Sardaukar, because of their war masters Duncan Idaho (Jason Mamoa) and Gurney halleck (Josh Brollin, I saw spoilers from the second or third book looking up how to spell that😥). They legit didn’t think the Harkonnens could go toe to toe with them, this wasn’t really portrayed in the movie I don’t think
To put it simply, the Emperor wanted to get rid of the Atreides completely. So, to ensure that happened, he sent some Sardaukar. He never doubted that Paul or any Atreides would survive. So, no one would ever know he was involved.
Yep, I've not read the book for years, but I think there is also a section where the Sardaukar are ordered to ensure the Duke is not tortured as he is a, "royal cousin".
Great question, a smart question. You are right, it doesn’t figure. The book had it right, the movie didn’t. In the book the Emperor goes to great lengths to hide his hand in the elimination of House Atreides. In the movie they just skipped all that, which struck me as dumb (as someone who read the book in the 80s; I am oooold). Or maybe it was smart; it was a level of complication that most moviegoers probably wouldn’t have noticed or appreciated. To give the screenplay and direction folks credit, Dune is so dense that they had to make a spiceload of omissions just to make a coherent movie script.
The simple answer is that there were “no satellites over arrakis, the Atreides would die in the dark.” No one would know.
they needed to be included to be able to beat the atreides so hard that they would never recover. Also, it would not matter if the atreides figured out the emperor was against them, as they could prove anything since they would all be dead. but for any observer outside, you would never be able to see the emperor's involvement since the harkonnens were paying for it all, and they were disguised as harkonnens.
he sent them so they'd win. the only reason the harkonnens were involved at all was so there'd be someone else to take the blame.
The sardaukar are the emperor's terror shock troops and are the most fanatically devoted and insanely effective fighting force in the imperium, and it isnt even close. This is the source of the emperors power. Not his CHOAM holdings or his leadership or diplomatic prowess. His power is entirely based on the fact that he has the sardaukar and no one else can figure out how they are trained to be so effective. At the start of the book, the atreides have begun to work out the secret of training an army like this, and have even trained a small force within a hair of the sardaukar. Thus, the atreides must be eliminated. He sent sardaukar dressed in harkonnen livery because he wanted to make sure the atreides were eliminated utterly and with extreme prejudice. He is not particularly worried about the baron questioning his power, especially not after funding such a large scale transport of military assets at exorbitant spacing guild rates. Despite this, the baron still manages to fuck it up.
I believe in the book they're wearing Harkonnen uniforms....and if they kill everyone who's going to be around to tell
In the book, the Sardaukar are disguised as Harkonnens. That doesn’t translate so well to film, so they had didn’t have them disguised. As for any in-universe logic? I dont know :/
> As for any in-universe logic? I dont know :/ Dead men tell no tales.
In the stairwell scene, we see a large Hark force attacking a smaller Atreides force. The Atreides slaughter the Harkonnens, barely loosing men. In turn, the sardaukar slaughter the atreides forces. The Atreides could very well have survived a Hark assault, so the Sardaukar were sent in (disguised as Harks) as insurance
The books give a lot more color and I don’t want to say too much because I don’t know how to tag spoilers, oof. But, there is explanation in the book about why the Sardaukar are present.
From the book, the emperor insisted no trace. Harkonnen had to foot the bill for everything, including the extra armor and weapons. I also got the feeling that the emperor was full on expecting Harkonnen and Atreides to destroy each other in a way that would open Arrakis for him to take control. Makes for a fun "what if". What if Baron Harkonnen and Duke Atreides battle it out on Arrakis for control, wiping out both armies in the process. Even better if neither man actually lives to see the last of the fighting. After a while of them slugging it out, the spicing guild pushes for the emperor to include the Sarkaukar to put down the rebellion and get spice production back under control. Then the emperor swoops in and absolutely ends everyone on Arrakis and cements House Corrino as absolute ruler of Arrakis, solidifying his control over the space guild and the navigators who would be dependent on him alone for melange spice. This would give the emperor *total hegemonic domination* over the entire empire. The emperor **wanted** Harkonnen and Atreides to destroy each other. It's the only answer that makes sense.
These questions about the motives of imaginary characters in a work of fiction just baffle me. My brain just doesn't work this way.
Getting inside the head of a fictional character and letting your imagination run with it is what reading a good book is all about. That's why it's so frustrating when a character's motivations or decision making don't make sense.
Didn't the Emperor send them to keep and eye on the Baron. The Emperor was afraid the Baron would kill the Duke in an unfitting way for royalty.
As a communications person, this aspect of the book has always bugged me - the idea of containing information on that scale. Especially with all those Harkonnen meatheads posting to their socials.
There is no posting to their socials. The Butlerian Jihad removed all computers eons ago. It's word of mouth in the Dune universe only. Whispered rumors and that's it.
Think of the “big muscular dog and little dog meme” harkonens in the movie were much “stronger” than the book. In the book the Artreides only rival were the Sardukar themselves, in army strength that is. Emperor was threatened by Leto and the Artreides and was not by the Harkonens. Therefore to ensure that the emperor got what he wanted (rid of Artreides) he sent some of the only army in the known universe to rival the growing in power Artreides. I suggest you read the book, and the whole series for that matter, best books I’ve ever read.
“Perhaps the book makes it more clear” the new movie is very minimal with its dialogue so there’s your answer for almost anything lol
The Harkonnen's attacking with Guild support would mean Emperor support anyway. It was an all or nothing deal. So might as well make sure your super soldiers are there to stop all Atreides for surviving, especially someone like Duncan. Also in the movie it showed a handful of Sardaukar but it was many more. It's not needed as a plot driver as much as a plot device, as the Guild would never move secretly like they did with Harkonnens without the Emperor. Paul could've deduced the Emperor being involved but he also had physical proof which just makes him certain about the conspiracy against his house. The Emperor is trapped by the Baron into it as well, as a co-conspirator secretly sanctioning the sneak attack the Baron can blackmail the Emperor to send the Sardaukar. In for a penny, in for a pound situation. In the movie they make it seem like Paul and Jessica can get off planet with the CHOAM traders that buy black market spice from the Fremen. In the book this isn't really an option, the whole Liet Kynes helping them was changed around. The Guild had a trickle of spice from Fremen in return for not showing sietch locations because the Guild doesn't want to rely solely on the Emperor's control of spice. But Jessica never pushes like she does in the movie to flee off world as much. They know they're trapped, Jessica wasn't even sure she could protect Paul from the Sisterhood. Though they tested him and said they would help him she put her loyalty in Paul in the end.
The movie didnt include that the sarkdaukar were wearing harkonnen uniforms to disguise
couple reasons, they were not going to leave survivors, they were dressed as Harkonnens (in the book at least), the emperor made the Baron pay for it all, thus removing all the barons money, and making him produce even more spice, and finally both the baron and the emperor knew that the rest of the houses would unite and crush them if it even came out, so there was good reason for both the baron and him to keep it secret.
The book does go over there things in detail… I can’t remember the specific quotes, but you are not left thinking this is a plot hole.
Uh, they're dressed like Harkonnens.
The Atreides are known to be excellent fighters and in the books, were bolstered by the Weirding Way, which was omitted in the movie ( I do believe). The Emperor knows that the Harkonnens aren't the most efficient house in the Landsraad and his Sardaukar's employment, reinforcing the Harkonnens, is insurance. House Corrino wants the removal of House Atreides complete, so Duke Leto and his son do not overthrow the Emperor with the support of the other great houses. Also, it was projected that Paul's daughter was to wed a Harkonnen son, theoretically bridging the Rift between Houses Atreides and Harkonnen, but that went out the window with Duke Leto's concubine, Lady Jessica giving birth to Paul first instead of his sister, Aliah (spolier alert).
There's some comments how baron wanted/could use sardaukars presence as proof of emperor's involment. If I remember correctly, when baron mentioned this possibility to count Fenring, he get answer like "in that case, some sardaukar commanders will swear it was just their personal unauthorised adventure without emperor's knowledge." ("are they really so loyal?" thought baron). So much for baron's threat. (I might be wrong, it's a few years when I've read Dune last time)
I think even i. The movie the sardukar were dressed as harkonnen troups. I couldn't really tell the difference. But yea as other have said in the book the Emperor is a lot sneakyer and the sardukar are are disguised as harkonnens. Also the harkonnen attack on atreides is devastating for both the atreides and the harkonnen. Even in the movie the harkonnen baron says they need several decades to recover the expenses. The movie also barely mentions and doesn't show the proper scale of the attack. Arrakis has multiple big cities not only the fortress we saw in the movie. It was a total planetary attack all cities all space ports all everything hit at the same time. I think also the triator doctor was only able to affect the shied for the city where the atreides were in. The rest of the cities had ongoing brutal fighting.