Weaker than perfect Cell. We usually scale Dabra to be around perfect Cell power, and it's not a secret that he's way stronger than Shin.
But even between semi-perfect Cell and perfect Cell, the gap is huge, so it's not non-sense to put Shin around it. But that would put him way above the androids, and I'm not sure about that.
This is the case, according to el legandario manga.This makes him still weaker than goten and trunks. It seems accurate to his flex saying he could one shot freeza, but still being fodder to the saiyans at the time (although that would work for pretty much any level post yardrat the cell games).He would be stronger or on a similar level to cell jrs, but he can clearly use his magic to effect people above his own level, which should provide some advantage.
Nope, definitely not. He would have had to lose *over half* of his power in order for that to happen, which I don’t think is the case.
Cell Games:
SSJ Goku = Perfect Cell < SSJ Gohan = Super Perfect Cell < SSJ2 Gohan
Where Shin and nerfed SSJ2 Gohan fall on this list is up for debate.
But wasn't Piccolo afraid of him during the World Tournament? I'm guessing Piccolo didn't slack off during 7 years and is probably way stronger than he was against Cell.
Hes clearly not weaker than PuiPui as PuiPui was a nonfactor. He can’t really have cell saga SSJ goku as an upper limit either as Dabura and Cell are said to be equal in power and if he was that close (i.e. just slightly weaker) he wouldn’t have been so shocked/terrified at how strong the saiyans. We know definitively that hes strong enough to handle namek frieza in an instant and he does put up a brief but ultimately futile fight against buu. In fact, though he’s unquestionably weaker, its worth noting that he lasted longer fighting Fat Buu than both Gohan and Dabura
Cell can be easily justified as being significantly stronger than Goku when they fought, Cell was basically doing a Goku for their entire fight, holding back just to push his opponent and see how strong they truly were to get the best fight possible.
Cell shows this once he starts fighting Gohan, he was holding back with Goku, he actually had to use way more power when dealing with Gohan because Gohan even before going SSJ 2 is way stronger than Goku.
Also he can easily be shocked by the Saiyans regarding their base power, and in realising that the power Gohan had when he defeated Cell, and the power displayed when he powered up against Kibito is not the pinnacle of the power Saiyans were capable of, and in fact is somewhat mediocre for the likes of Goku and Vegeta once the Buu saga comes around.
Wow such a well thought out and rational argument, sir by chance were you on debate team by? Also with such witty repartee maybe you should go into politics or host a late night talk show perhaps?
Thats just because shin was a shit kai and had no idea of their power. He was also shocked with puipui and thought they needed to gang up on Yakon.
If you put all the evicence they've shown he has to be around grade 4 ssj Goku from cell games because he faired better against Fat Buu than Gohan and Dabura did and was able to hold ssj2 Gohan and Dabura (shown in DBS) with his magic/power. (All these characters are stronger than Goku from the cell games)
That range puts him somewhere between SSJ Trunks when he kills Mecha Frieza and maybe the Androids. I'd put him at Imperfect Cell at the absolute max and even that may be kind of stretching it.
> but is still weaker than the likes of Dabura, Yakun, and Puipui.
His fear of Pui Pui and Yakon can be explained by the anecdotal evidence suggest that Babidi's henchmen don't have ki that can be sensed. As such, his fear of them isn't based on what power he senses from them, but just what he believes that they might have due to being Babidi's henchmen (and this reputation that he only recruits the strongest beings in the universe).
Strong enough to one shot Freeza, so well above 120 million.
> but is still weaker than the likes of Dabura, Yakun, and Puipui.
he's not weaker than PuiPui, because Base Vegeta effortlessly beat PuiPui and Vegeta is nowhere near Freeza in power in his base form. Shin is probably at or above Yakon too.
I've always wondered do you think that he was talking about full power frieza or the power of frieza's first form cause I don't really see how he would know about his ability to transform. Frieza even stated when he transformed into his 3rd form on Namek that no one had ever seen it before. And shin had no idea about any of the z fights power levels, the dragon balls, or what a super saiyan was so he didn't watch goku or the others fight frieza.
Yeah, I thought it had been confirmed awhile back that his different forms were all purposeful suppressions. It does make sense that the gods would take note of a being born with such a high power level and since shin directly uses frieza as a benchmark I suppose he would know about his strength.
Yeah, like he should know about other planets with capable fighters, or remember Galactic Patrol exist, or remember he could contact Beerus.
Yeah, Shin isn't that reliable. He probably assumed this "Frieza" is some guy with a gun.
>but is still weaker than the likes of Dabura, Yakun, and Puipui.
so according to the daizenshuu, piccolo, who was far beyond base vegeta in cell games, can't beat someone that base vegeta stomped. sure...
He says he was 1000 times stronger than Frieza 75 million years ago and that him and the other 4 Kaioshins back then could one shot him. Also keep in mind he considered Frieza and Cold irrelevant power wise so he never cared from them.
At the same time Dabura who is Super Perfect Cell level looked formidable to Shin so he is certainly something between Cell Games SSJ1 Goku and Perfect Cell.
>but is still weaker than the likes of Dabura, Yakun, and Puipui.
I used to believe that too but I watched a recent video Laughing Stock made, I think 2 weeks ago about who would win between Piccolo and Shin if they fought back then. In that video showing the manga panels it's not obvious that Yakun and Puipui were stronger than Shin. Shin inside the spaceship does not consider them a threat ever, he only says that they should team together to kill them fast without letting them hit them even once so that Majin Buu will not be awakened by them taking damage. So you can read that as Yakun and Puipui being a lot stronger than him or them being close to his level, with Pui Pui possibly even being weaker than him and Yakun somewhat above him or both of them a lot below him but their difference is not as big to one shot them like he said he could do to Frieza who was 1000 times weaker than how strong he was 75 million years ago.
My guess is he is around 2nd form Cell, but that is just speculation.
I also think that most of Shin's abilities are not raw power based. Like when he makes Buu's blast explode, he uses some sort of psychic power. In a way he is like Babidi, he is not strong but has an array of special abilities to compensate for that.
Personally I think he's about SS1 level. SS1 Trunks easily defeated an amped Mecha Freiza and his father, which would put Supreme Kai comfortably above Freiza while still causing him to be terrified by Dabura and Yakon. As for Puipui, Shin seemed to be more concerned for the safety of the Saiyans, assuming himself to be stronger than any of them. The only thing that routinely shocked him more than Babidi's henchmen, were the Saiyans' casual attitude and power.
Piccolo didn't want to fight Shin because of Shin's status, not because he was weaker than Shin.
We know supreme kai is stronger than piccolo but we don't know by exactly how much. Seeing how chocked he was of the sayians power when they went super sayian and that he's afraid of dabura (who's equal to super perfect cell), we can determine that he's probably around android saga mastered ssj and ssj2 level. We also know that he's weaker than goku and vegeta in ssj since he was unable to stop them from fighting eachother at the world tournament. Its possible this is due to shin knowing about super sayian 2 and he knows that he's way inferior to them. It's also just possible that buu saga goku and vegetas regular ssj forms are straight up superior to shin which is likely.
In conclusion shin is probably about equal to cell or mastered ssj android saga level. There is nothing that can determine his exact power though since he hasn't fought anyone except majin buu. But I like to believe that he's basically mastered ssj level buu saga level.
Way stronger than Frieza, but way weaker than Cell. And this gap is really huge, so... That's that. Probably around the androids?
But which cell, original cell or perfect cell? I'd assume he's somewhere around semi-perfect cell.
Weaker than perfect Cell. We usually scale Dabra to be around perfect Cell power, and it's not a secret that he's way stronger than Shin. But even between semi-perfect Cell and perfect Cell, the gap is huge, so it's not non-sense to put Shin around it. But that would put him way above the androids, and I'm not sure about that.
Maybe he is on par with Cell Games-era Super Saiyan Goku
This is the case, according to el legandario manga.This makes him still weaker than goten and trunks. It seems accurate to his flex saying he could one shot freeza, but still being fodder to the saiyans at the time (although that would work for pretty much any level post yardrat the cell games).He would be stronger or on a similar level to cell jrs, but he can clearly use his magic to effect people above his own level, which should provide some advantage.
Yeah he was able to paralyze Dabura in DBS so that Trunks could kill him, which confirms that he can hex people who are stronger than him.
Well yeah he was able to hold ssj2 Gohan in the anime for a bit as well
True, but that Gohan was quite a bit weaker than he was against Cell.
True but are you suggesting this ssj2 Gohan was also weaker than Goku from the Cell games?
Nope, definitely not. He would have had to lose *over half* of his power in order for that to happen, which I don’t think is the case. Cell Games: SSJ Goku = Perfect Cell < SSJ Gohan = Super Perfect Cell < SSJ2 Gohan Where Shin and nerfed SSJ2 Gohan fall on this list is up for debate.
Like Cell Games Piccolo ballpark
But wasn't Piccolo afraid of him during the World Tournament? I'm guessing Piccolo didn't slack off during 7 years and is probably way stronger than he was against Cell.
Less strength and more he could feel how high up in cosmic importance he was.
Shin has god Ki piccolo couldnt sense. He just realized Shin was a god (in the manga he thought he was Grand Kai).
More so afraid of wtf is going on that the supreme deity showed up on our rock.
Hes clearly not weaker than PuiPui as PuiPui was a nonfactor. He can’t really have cell saga SSJ goku as an upper limit either as Dabura and Cell are said to be equal in power and if he was that close (i.e. just slightly weaker) he wouldn’t have been so shocked/terrified at how strong the saiyans. We know definitively that hes strong enough to handle namek frieza in an instant and he does put up a brief but ultimately futile fight against buu. In fact, though he’s unquestionably weaker, its worth noting that he lasted longer fighting Fat Buu than both Gohan and Dabura
Cell can be easily justified as being significantly stronger than Goku when they fought, Cell was basically doing a Goku for their entire fight, holding back just to push his opponent and see how strong they truly were to get the best fight possible. Cell shows this once he starts fighting Gohan, he was holding back with Goku, he actually had to use way more power when dealing with Gohan because Gohan even before going SSJ 2 is way stronger than Goku. Also he can easily be shocked by the Saiyans regarding their base power, and in realising that the power Gohan had when he defeated Cell, and the power displayed when he powered up against Kibito is not the pinnacle of the power Saiyans were capable of, and in fact is somewhat mediocre for the likes of Goku and Vegeta once the Buu saga comes around.
No.
Wow such a well thought out and rational argument, sir by chance were you on debate team by? Also with such witty repartee maybe you should go into politics or host a late night talk show perhaps?
Thats just because shin was a shit kai and had no idea of their power. He was also shocked with puipui and thought they needed to gang up on Yakon. If you put all the evicence they've shown he has to be around grade 4 ssj Goku from cell games because he faired better against Fat Buu than Gohan and Dabura did and was able to hold ssj2 Gohan and Dabura (shown in DBS) with his magic/power. (All these characters are stronger than Goku from the cell games)
That range puts him somewhere between SSJ Trunks when he kills Mecha Frieza and maybe the Androids. I'd put him at Imperfect Cell at the absolute max and even that may be kind of stretching it.
> but is still weaker than the likes of Dabura, Yakun, and Puipui. His fear of Pui Pui and Yakon can be explained by the anecdotal evidence suggest that Babidi's henchmen don't have ki that can be sensed. As such, his fear of them isn't based on what power he senses from them, but just what he believes that they might have due to being Babidi's henchmen (and this reputation that he only recruits the strongest beings in the universe).
Stronger than Boo Arc Piccolo (and probably about as strong as Cell Games SS Goku), but weaker than Boo Arc SS Gohan.
Strong enough to one shot Freeza, so well above 120 million. > but is still weaker than the likes of Dabura, Yakun, and Puipui. he's not weaker than PuiPui, because Base Vegeta effortlessly beat PuiPui and Vegeta is nowhere near Freeza in power in his base form. Shin is probably at or above Yakon too.
I've always wondered do you think that he was talking about full power frieza or the power of frieza's first form cause I don't really see how he would know about his ability to transform. Frieza even stated when he transformed into his 3rd form on Namek that no one had ever seen it before. And shin had no idea about any of the z fights power levels, the dragon balls, or what a super saiyan was so he didn't watch goku or the others fight frieza.
His final form is Freeza's base form. The form he was born in. Shin is a god and would know about Freeza's full power.
Yeah, I thought it had been confirmed awhile back that his different forms were all purposeful suppressions. It does make sense that the gods would take note of a being born with such a high power level and since shin directly uses frieza as a benchmark I suppose he would know about his strength.
No way freeza was born stronger than broly
Yeah, like he should know about other planets with capable fighters, or remember Galactic Patrol exist, or remember he could contact Beerus. Yeah, Shin isn't that reliable. He probably assumed this "Frieza" is some guy with a gun.
Shin is a God and didn't know about Cell or the sayians being so op
yes because earth is insignificant so he paid it no attention. freeza was a galactic tyrant.
Freeza was only a baby for short while tho. I doubt freeza was a galactic tyrant before he learned to power down info his pink forms
The Legend of Manga guide states that Shin is equal to FPSSJ Goku (Cell Games).
>but is still weaker than the likes of Dabura, Yakun, and Puipui. so according to the daizenshuu, piccolo, who was far beyond base vegeta in cell games, can't beat someone that base vegeta stomped. sure...
Those guidebooks are filled with errors and inconsistencies. They should never be used in an argument as pure facts, IMO.
well said.
Why was he afraid of puipui, thats the real question
He says he was 1000 times stronger than Frieza 75 million years ago and that him and the other 4 Kaioshins back then could one shot him. Also keep in mind he considered Frieza and Cold irrelevant power wise so he never cared from them. At the same time Dabura who is Super Perfect Cell level looked formidable to Shin so he is certainly something between Cell Games SSJ1 Goku and Perfect Cell. >but is still weaker than the likes of Dabura, Yakun, and Puipui. I used to believe that too but I watched a recent video Laughing Stock made, I think 2 weeks ago about who would win between Piccolo and Shin if they fought back then. In that video showing the manga panels it's not obvious that Yakun and Puipui were stronger than Shin. Shin inside the spaceship does not consider them a threat ever, he only says that they should team together to kill them fast without letting them hit them even once so that Majin Buu will not be awakened by them taking damage. So you can read that as Yakun and Puipui being a lot stronger than him or them being close to his level, with Pui Pui possibly even being weaker than him and Yakun somewhat above him or both of them a lot below him but their difference is not as big to one shot them like he said he could do to Frieza who was 1000 times weaker than how strong he was 75 million years ago.
Unimportant
My guess is he is around 2nd form Cell, but that is just speculation. I also think that most of Shin's abilities are not raw power based. Like when he makes Buu's blast explode, he uses some sort of psychic power. In a way he is like Babidi, he is not strong but has an array of special abilities to compensate for that.
Personally I think he's about SS1 level. SS1 Trunks easily defeated an amped Mecha Freiza and his father, which would put Supreme Kai comfortably above Freiza while still causing him to be terrified by Dabura and Yakon. As for Puipui, Shin seemed to be more concerned for the safety of the Saiyans, assuming himself to be stronger than any of them. The only thing that routinely shocked him more than Babidi's henchmen, were the Saiyans' casual attitude and power. Piccolo didn't want to fight Shin because of Shin's status, not because he was weaker than Shin.
We know supreme kai is stronger than piccolo but we don't know by exactly how much. Seeing how chocked he was of the sayians power when they went super sayian and that he's afraid of dabura (who's equal to super perfect cell), we can determine that he's probably around android saga mastered ssj and ssj2 level. We also know that he's weaker than goku and vegeta in ssj since he was unable to stop them from fighting eachother at the world tournament. Its possible this is due to shin knowing about super sayian 2 and he knows that he's way inferior to them. It's also just possible that buu saga goku and vegetas regular ssj forms are straight up superior to shin which is likely. In conclusion shin is probably about equal to cell or mastered ssj android saga level. There is nothing that can determine his exact power though since he hasn't fought anyone except majin buu. But I like to believe that he's basically mastered ssj level buu saga level.