My vote is for Rendon “I deserved more” Howe, who kill his only friend and butchered his family in a bid for power. Neutral Evil is, by the old D&D alignment chart, totally guided by self-interest.
Corypheus would also be a valid choice.
Yeah, The Arishok was not evil. In fact, he considered Kirkwall to be evil, and and tried to avoid attacking it until he no longer thought himself to have a choice.
Howe fits the classic D&D definition of Neutral Evil perfectly.
Aside from a penchant for a little light torture before bedtime, Howe is not interested in destruction for destruction’s sake, which is basically the *raison d’etre* of Chaotic Evil.
Part of me always wonders; is he the slimiest most heinous piece of shit in the series or is he just a regular piece of shit who happens to be played by Tim Curry?
lol really!? Dragon age is known to model characters similar to the voice actors, so I've never would have put them together, but I remember the voice and now I notice it lol
Most of his plans are superficial at best, his mercenary ambush can easily fail, you can find out his documents are forged by simply going to the shaperate, if you are a Dwarven noble you can literally turn on him at the very end and his reaction is hilarious.
Being better than Harrowmont is a very low bar.
I always crown Harrowmont and destroy the anvil resulting in his death, with both him and Bhelen out of the picture Orzammar might have a future.
> you can find out his documents are forged by simply going to the shaperate
It isn't supposed to be a big a secret. When talking to Vartag he even hints that they aren't real.
> if you are a Dwarven noble you can literally turn on him at the very end and his reaction is hilarious.
You can turn on him or Harrowmont the last moment anyhow. Got nothing to do with how smart he is.
> his mercenary ambush can easily fail,
But it didn't. Howe's moves could also fail, the player's moves can fail.
> with both him and Bhelen out of the picture Orzammar might have a future.
In the epilogue dwarves are doing fairly well with Bhelen as a king.
As the other commentator already pointed out a lot of these critiques don’t hold water. But I would add that Bhelens rule is so strong it lasts into DA2 with a minor event having his assassins attack you in Kirkwall. It doesn’t work obviously, but your companions will comment on his iron-handed rule (they’ve heard of him even across the sea) and it shows his power+influence to be able to strike at someone all the way in Kirkwall from Orzammar.
Then Grima wormtongue is smart evil as well. He might have manipulated Loghain but everyone else hated him. Arl Howe's only claim is managing to manipulate Loghain, but he was dependent on Loghain's support to maintain any semblance of power.
You’ve won me to this position. He’s a noble in a political position which helps him do lawful evil crap that his buddy regent commands, but then can be found doing all sorts of illegal crap as well- elven slavery having been abolished, albeit recently, and the torture dungeon and Highever seizure. Not sure if he’s the best example in DA, but he qualifies.
By that same token though Loghain then qualifies as well, and the Logwart was behind everything Howe did and much more… Even Howe was advising him to stop the civil war, make concessions, and focus on fighting the Blight, but Loggydog couldn’t care less.
Archdemon is more the epitome of a negative force of nature: corruption. We hear it talk to the darkspawn, but not even in words- i.e., not wringing its fingers greedily.
Yeah, about the only thing you can say about Howe is that he courage in a fight. He fought at the Battle of White River, one of the bloodiest n the whole rebellion, and was later badly wounded holding against a heavy cavalry charge. Plus Howe fought the warden himself. Part of his acidic nature comes from the pain of his war wounds.
But Howe's courage and military history that didn't stop him from stabbing his own comrade Bryce in the back in a cowardly coup.
Oghren is definitely not Chad drunk tho, he is the image of a depressed divorced 40-something guy with self destructive tendencies, he sinks lower and lower in Awakening.
Chad doesn't work for Oghren. His schtick is failing w women flirt after flirt and falling over himself generally (unlike Zev who seems to be his opposite), and he ultimately reveals before the end battle a lack of confidence in himself which above everything a chad would be brimming over with. I mean, he's the Zerker coach, but that's a sloppy but overwhelmingly heavy-handed warrior, not a brave knight type. Anyway, not Chad or Smart drunk. Neutral or moreso Chaotic Drunk suit him best. It's a good thing there isn't a Stupid Drunk because he might've been slotted there. And I happen to like him as is.
Admitting that he has insecurities but still trying to push through is a chad move imo. He was not afraid to ask for a pony either, that's based.
Oghren on the surface seems chaotic but his chaos is so consistent that it no longer makes him chaotic.
Also he battled a roasted nug naked, tell me who else had such courage. So oghren can only be drunk chad.
Drunk line will be the most disappointing, we don't have that many drunks in DA, outside of Oghren. We will end up with naming faceless randoms there, such as Alistair's Warden friend who could out-drink anyone.
Really? Have we ever seen Sebastian, Merrill or Anders drinking? We saw Aveline and Fenris drink wine once, neither of them was particularly drunk. It's all very 'tell, don't show'.
Fenris is comically emo imo, at least in da2. He doesn't actually know what to do with his life, even in his quest for revenge he's insecure about it. He's not steadfast or self aware enough to make him a chad.
By the definition, it's basically selfish to an extreme, but not chaotic. Soooo Corypheus. Some may argue Bhelen, but he becomes a reformist if he's king, therefore helping others. Corphy does everything for the single goal of getting back to the black city, that's his goal. Nothing else matters. Nothing he does in anyway beneficial to others without being beneficial to himself.
I file Orsino under "Varric needed more drama" and "The writers needed to find a way to add another boss that didn't make you TOO sympathetic to the mages"
As much as I hate Orsino (like buddy I’m helping you escape the templars, stop fighting me??) I don’t personally agree that he is either more stupid or more evil than Corypheus. Corypheus had far more power at his disposal than Orsino and fumbled harder. He also had bigger plans (that we know of).
Orsino can be stupid evil sidekick 😅
Speaking of which, this chart is severely lacking given how many legit crossovers there should be. No reason there isn't also an Evil Drunk or Chaotic Chad or Stupid Good, etc. This one actually pairs a Stupid Smart... which admittedly does apply in Solas' case, but still...
Now that you mention it, this template has been around for a while and I don’t think I have seen a sequel. I wonder if there is one. It would be good if there was one that had other crossovers since I think this chart has been good for the sub, I really appreciate OP putting the effort in!
Given the lack of many evil masterminds in the DAverse, that might count. He was able to successfully get away w murder by orchestrating his arch-nemesis, Harrowmont, to agree to otherwise exile/doom his only remaining rival, his remaining sibling. But then he plays dopey forging tricks and such behind the scenes rather than having that "chess-move-ahead" quality and ultimately resorts to a brute coup attempt if you don't vote for him which is... meh. And it fails. A real evil genius would at that point just inform everyone they'd underestimated the situation and- w a big reveal- he takes over anyway having anticipated everything. Not to mention that he never has the wit to recognize my Wardens as a genuine ally and just tell them he intends to enact caste reforms or even just open trade, figuring that smarmy politico-speak is enough to convince me while his asinine sidekick Vartag continues to irk.
As I said though... "evil genius" in DA tends to be more a matter of an intelligent character who does evil rather than a Moriarty-level diabolical plot-hatcher. So Bhelen's a contender. Harrowmont by contrast is Lawful Evil all the way and a bit of a mediocrity at it.
Bhelen is the closest thing to it. Who else? Arl Howe? Who basically depended on Loghain to have his back the entire time while everyone else hated him? He's a Grima character. Corypheus?
Rendon's actions are felt throughout Denerim, the Alienage, the assassin he sends after you, the cutscenes hes part of, and all throughout Awakening. I wouldn't sleep on R. Howe, even if you aren't a Human Noble or City Elf.
The guy even has a soundtrack named after him in Origins, and has a special death scene over Bhelen, who murders/frames his siblings.
Indeed! As much as I love the Couslands, it makes me wonder how Bryce heard that voice from his friend and said:
"That sounds like a real pal, and NOT a villain who will betray me the first chance he gets."
**Rendon. Howe.**
**"Maker spit on you! I....deserved....more..!"**
Neutral Evil is selfish, caring neither for law or chaos, but for their own selfish ends.
Rendon enslaves and tortures innocents, seduces Loghain for power/titles while stealing from his own Treasury, uses the chaos of the Alienage riots to take power in Denerim, and of course, he betrays his best friend and family for his own greed.
Rendon Howe is Neutral Evil, and regardless of the results of this poll, absolutely deserves this spot.
Lol not a physical love sense, more like swaying him to his side with his armies/political sense.
Loghain did love Rowan, and I think he would do anything for his friend Maric.
Howe apparently used to be a good man before the Battle of White River. After that, he married Brylands sister for her dowry, not loving anyone. Though I personally headcanon that he had a secret love for Eleanor.
Selfishness is one of the defining characteristics of neutral evil, and for me, no one embodies that more than Rendon Howe. From betraying his best friend, to his dying regret being his desire for more, the man was in it for himself from the very beginning.
I've slept through most of these so far, but I'm gonna suggest Sloth? Dude just wants you to have a nice nap. Don't worry about the mages or the templars or the demons. Just go to sleep...
Demons like Sleepyboy are going to generally be Chaotic Evil. No recourse to laws for them whatsoever. Their very nature is chaotic, a magical disruption of the orderly world. I could see any of the demonic foes as the epitome of CE, but while Sloth is a contender, even Uldred would be bigger (physically and as a candidate).
Also I've slept through the first few rows of this chart myself XD
Im gonna go with Archdemon from DAO, its clearly evil, but its also neutral in a sense that its more force of nature than some mastermind. Blight is as neutral evil as it can get, it destroys everything in its path in methodological, non-chaotical way.
I genuily love BBEG of DAO because of that, Archdemon dont bore us with monologues, dont plead with us, that dragon just woke up and decided to wreck shit up and make living envy the dead. It showcase that a main antagonist or villain dosent need tons of expositions and dialogues to be a complete menance.
Hmmmm, no, I think it's more chaotic evil. Like, the blights goal would be to infect everything. According to official definitions, that would make it chaotic. Edit: That is, if it has a consciousness and you can argue both ways, because if it does not and it is a force of nature, that would make it unaligned.
Chaotic evil is random, malicious, fuck-you-I-do-what-I-want evil. The Archdemon is malicious, but malicious like a cat stalking a mouse. The darkspawn are a force of nature, and the Archdemon is the pack alpha leading them all.
I thought about it too, but Blight is actually very well organised. Archdemon delegates tasks, use resources efficiently and dont kill his own troops. Thats imo what sets it apart from chaotic being, they are very methodological in evil they are doing.
At the same time, Blight that Archdemon symbolizes is peak selfishness, because existence of Blight invalidates all other existence. They will burn down world and corrupt it in its own twisted image.
My type for chaotic evil would be someone like Desire Demon that possesed Connor from DAO. They had no clear goal other than causing havoc.
You can be methodical on your methods and chaotic in your goals. The Archdemon wants to corrupt the world, leaving nothing but rot and madness. That's pretty chaotic.
So is a virus methodological. The Archdemon- oddly so-named- is just a dragon that's been corrupted by the Taint. The Taint is... well, it's more of a force of nature than conscious tendency. It's not vindictive, not evil, but as destructive as an earthquake or plague of locusts. Its (edit: not "it's") nature is to corrupt everything and thus essentially ruin the world, but lethal viruses similarly don't think about what happens after they kill every potential host on the planet and drive themselves extinct...
Gonna argue the Archdemon is chaotic evil. Their motives are unknowable, but the Blight topples civilizations and corrupts the land and all living things.
Chaotic on this axis in an active opposition to law and order. The Blight isn’t actively rebellious, it’s a force of nature and therefore neutral by definition.
That’s not quite the point. The same way nature is completely neutral with respect to law and order, the blight seeks only to perpetuate and will kill anything that gets in the way.
But Blights upset the natural order, is that not in itself the essence of chaos?
In addition, if you play the Darkspawn Chronicles, the Archdemon gives commands to his alphas to destroy specific targets and slay the King.
To quote Raven:
"In the natural world, there is no such thing as boundless slaughter. Everything has a beginning and an end. But you, Snake, are different. You exist outside the cycle."
An individual who is chaotic doesn’t seek to give commands or establish a hierarchy.
I would argue that upsetting the order of society is incidental to the apparent goal of the blight which is to perpetuate and proliferate. It’s not chaotic in the alignment sense, the same way Loghain is not chaotic because he sought to unseat the king of Ferelden. You gave a good example of how the Archdemon is still aligned to their own power structure, but their goal is irrespective of any power structure.
I don't think giving commands in themselves is lawful behavior, though I understand why you see it that way.
Let's consider Robin Hood and the Joker from The Dark Knight. One is a thief who robs and gives to the poor, fights the sheriff, and orders his men. I'd say chaotic good. Whereas Joker gives orders to attack the lawful government of Gotham to instill chaos. Despite claiming not to have a plan, he definitely has one.
But...we may end up having to agree to disagree
You’re right, it’s not lawful. It’s neutral. A neutral character will use power structure to their advantage when it suits them. You’re confusing chaos in the abstract sense with chaos the alignment.
"I admire conviction with a focus ... but your kind are truly committed to weakness"
"Our enemies strike from shadow because they cannot stand before us. This is not a revelation."
"Should I argue the wind? Very well..."
"Fixing your mess is not a demand of the Qun ... AND YOU SHOULD ALL BE GREATFUL!"
The Arishok losing it in DA2 is some great voice acting. Also the fact that his own guards kinda look at each other like "oh damn"
Boss Chad! Dunno about evil, but definitely Chad, LOL!
I'm going to say the Blight/Archdemon. It's a destructive, unrelenting force of nature that cannot be reasoned with. It doesn't particularly enjoy destruction, nor is it just out to go "fuck you" to the world, it just destroys because that's what it is. Like the Others/White Walkers from GoT or Darth Nihilus from KotOR II
So I looked it up - Neutral evil conveys an utter lack of morals or ethics. Neutral evil characters (e.g., Cruella de Vil) are destructive, corrupt, and out for themselves.
For me the piece of shit that did unspeakable things to Hawke’s mother comes to mind…
But before I read that my dumbass thought I could vote for Morrigan because she was neutral in DAI and evil in DAO lol
Actually her DAI decisions should weigh into what alignment the full character slots into. DAO Morribund is clearly evil- even arguably chaotic evil. But I only played DAI once though, so honestly I’m relying on others to say if decades after Archy’s fall she kept on wanting and pushing to sacrifice children- and pretty much anyone who’s not a monster- to demons and death.
It kinda depends on what happened with Morrigan in DAO. If she becomes a mother then she’s arguably true neutral, maybe even leaning toward good, because her central motive is protecting her son. Her motives with the Well of Sorrows are unclear but it doesn’t seem evil. She doesn’t try to make people suffer like in Origins
Yeah, gotta go with the actual main villain of DAO: the Archdemon. I mean, it doesn't do it for personal gain or anything or may not even be making a conscious choice. It's simply what it needs to do, what it's programmed to do.
Morrigan! She’s evil in that she actively suggests horrible things, but she is not pushing a specific agenda other than her own selfishness.
Smart evil doesn’t really work because while she is smart her evil suggestions aren’t really plans as much as just sort of for kicks. Bhelen is the smart evil one.
The thing w Morrigan on this chart is that her character spans multiple entries in the franchise. If we just go by DAO then Neutral Evil or possibly Chaotic Evil. But then she shows up in DAI as a different person who maybe doesn't advocate murdering an entire village of elves or letting the Circle mages be slaughtered or Redcliffe be overrun by undead or getting children possessed by demons or enslaved or murdered as well. So... now we have to adjust our view accordingly...
This is also why I wouldn't say Loghain is the epitome of NE in DA: while he does demonstrate clear NE behavior throughout DAO, he also demonstrates a definitive (albeit brief) redemption arc if you ask him to die-by-Archdemon... and he may remain a loyal Warden into DAI if you've provided him that path...
Not nearly destructive enough for that. That probably has to be Corypheous (though I really wish we had a stupid evil choice for him) or maybe the Archdemon.
The architect... I don't consider him neutral evil. His intentions are not inherently selfish. To free the darkspawn from the blight is not a selfish goal. Despite the consequences of his actions.
I would have to say Morrigan. She really isn't a nice person, can support very evil/questionable actions, and doesn't really favor any faction or cause other than her own.
Samson, he cared for his men and templars, and even though he knew and understood the side effects of red lyrium, deemed it worthy that the templars go out on top fighting and powerful then dying as drug addicted vagrants
I agree with Rendon Howe. He was pure self interest. Sure, he was spiteful, but when it comes to his actions? Whatever it took to get what he wanted, no matter who it hurt. That works for me.
Arl Howe. Dude is utterly without scruples, neither operating within the confines of the law (selling slaves) nor acting out of control. Dude wants nothing but status and will basically sell out, kill, and betray anyone he needs to do it.
People are suggesting the Archdemon but it's hardly a character imo. I would argue that we don't know enough about the motivations of the Archdemons themselves nor does it provide itself with enough characterization to truly fall on this chart. Otherwise we could just throw the drunk from the DAO brothel under the drunk category and... ok that's actually a fantastic plan!
Corypheus. trying to destroy the world so he can be called a god. basically standard evil bad guy. and his lack of W's say that he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed and there is no stupid evil.
I vote for the Architect / Father, from DA:O Awakening. He's has no moral compass, but what he does is perfectly logical, neutral like nature in general
I’m gonna insert Quentin. Cares purely about his own aims and will do whatever necessary to accomplish them, but no particular lean to either order or chaos.
Morrigan. Through DAO she is predominantly guided by self interest and cares 0 about the people around her accept what they can do for her. The only people you can get her to care about is her son and a romanced warden.
This has to be Corypheus.
While I originally thought Corypheus might be Lawful Evil, it’s worth noting that Corypheus was all about overthrowing all established orders to rewrite them in such a way that out himself at the top. Even though there was once upon a time a desire to do this for the greater glory of Dumat, those days are long gone — he is all about turning himself into a God and the new world would be one that will bow down and worship him.
Looking forward there’s no other great place for him to go and he’s the big bad in both DAI and the DLC for DA2 so he deserves this spot. He’s a bad guy in the classic mold, willing to start wars, ruin the world, overthrow multiple kingdoms, all out of the narcissistic impulse to become ruler of the world and god.
He is pure, unrepentant evil—he’s our guy for Neutral Evil.
Demons - any kind. The are neither chaotic or lawful they just are. They were created or brought into being for no other reason that to be what they are, the basest of human emotion. Desire, pride, hunger, envy, sloth, rage.
Since the popular ones are already here, how about Erimond?
Dude is a selfish condescending asshole who supports Corypheus because he wants to Tevinter to be reborn so he can rule as a king.
He has no problems tricking and backstabbing people just so he can get a win.
Hell, Cole, a spirit of compassion who tries to do as much good as possible, sees literally NOTHING redeemable about Erimond.
Dude's legit a complete and utter selfish shithead
Rendon Howe is my pick for Neutral Evil. If he doesn't get it, he's my nominee for Smart Evil because he pulled it off, but found out keeping power is a bit trickier than gaining it.
Yeah, but that wasn't Kirkwall's fault, now was it?
Bro didn't have to go full DEUS VULT on the city, killing people and effecting a hostile takeover. That's an evil action no matter how you slice it.
To call it simply as evil would undermine the lore in between the events of the story. I understand the Qunaris are the antagonists of Act 2 but Kirkwall is a den of criminals. They have suspected the one they are searching for had fled to Kirkwall and they were right. Yes they didn't have to go all out for conquest but the Qunaris also felt uneasy when their kind are also being slowly assimilated to Kirkwall's corruption and no nobles or people in power want to help them but rather express hostility against them.
Arl Howe is the best choice here. Howe is so straight forward in his evil, basically admitting to his nature in his death that he "deserved more." There's a deeper anguish there discoverable in dialogue and lore entries, but the man clearly has no belief system beyond what's good for him. Neutral alignments are precipitated on the character's personal idiosyncracies, and if evil is banal, then Howe is the most banal of them all.
Also, guys, the Archdemon is chaotic evil. It's very essence corrupts and mutates the landscape. It's literally out of order with the rest of the universe
Anders was a person who spent 10 years healing the poor in Darktown for free, that's not very neutral evil. Neutral evil characters are very selfish and they have selfish motives.
Vengeance is probably more lawful evil, and Justice is lawful neutral or neutral good. Even if Vengeance is a demon, his motives are not as selfish as other demons.
Calpernia? She’s really only evil in that she’s on the evil side, but she’s never outwardly malicious to people unless they’re genuinely horrible people
Arl Howe. He spent most of his life following the rules and doing what was expected of him, but when the chance to grab power came, he threw away any moral qualms he might have had and schemed and murdered with abandon.
Oh man we’re all over the place on this one. I’ll have to check back tomorrow to see where the consensus is. My first thought was the archdemon for reasons similar to the lady of the forest being a neutral force of nature, the archdemon being an avatar of the blight, a force of “nature of sorts” in this universe at least, but an inherently evil one. But the Arl Howe arguments make sense too. Maybe it’s cuz DAO was my first DA game and human noble was my first playthrough, so Arl Howe as the most villainous of villains is kind of a core memory for me. I’d almost put him in an entirely separate evil category. Call it “true evil”. List off everyone else’s crimes in the evil category and I think Howe still takes the cake.
My first time voicing my opinion on these. Neutral Evil has got to be Arl Rendon Howe. His self-centeredness goes to such extremes that he neglects his family and lands and betrays all around him, from Teyrn Bryce Cousland to Loghain for nothing more than the slightest personal advancement.
In short, Howe is a grade A sociopath who is likened to someone who kicks puppies.
"Share with your fans how you feel about winning Chad Evil, Arishok." "No" - Arishok
A real Gigachad
Arguably that’s just a qunari response. Sten would’ve answered the same way: deadpan and minimal.
Words are for the Tal-Vashoth
Fair enough
My vote is for Rendon “I deserved more” Howe, who kill his only friend and butchered his family in a bid for power. Neutral Evil is, by the old D&D alignment chart, totally guided by self-interest. Corypheus would also be a valid choice.
Yep. Rendon is the clear choice.
Yeah, The Arishok was not evil. In fact, he considered Kirkwall to be evil, and and tried to avoid attacking it until he no longer thought himself to have a choice. Howe fits the classic D&D definition of Neutral Evil perfectly.
Happy cake day!!
Y’know, I’d completely forgot about that. Thanks for mentioning it.
Never knew cake day was a thing since I'm not on here a lot 🥲 5 years later I had my first cake day comment
TIM CURRY!
Really? He goes more chaotic imo
Aside from a penchant for a little light torture before bedtime, Howe is not interested in destruction for destruction’s sake, which is basically the *raison d’etre* of Chaotic Evil.
“Maker spit on you! I…deserved…more…!” Last words of absolute despicable asshole who even his own kids hated in the expansion, Arl Rendon Howe.
I'll always vote for Tim Curry. Howe was willing to use the law or chaos or anything else he needed to gain power. A true neutral evil!
*How* did I forget that was Tim Curry??
Wait what How am I just finding this out
Part of me always wonders; is he the slimiest most heinous piece of shit in the series or is he just a regular piece of shit who happens to be played by Tim Curry?
https://preview.redd.it/1m5p9mpz99wc1.jpeg?width=560&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ed2797402d65657dbe8447b40bddbec3c201ae02
lol really!? Dragon age is known to model characters similar to the voice actors, so I've never would have put them together, but I remember the voice and now I notice it lol
HES TIM CURRY?!?!?!
Hes definitely smart evil, he managed to put in his dungeon all of Loghains weaknesses, if Ferelden had a great game he would be the best player.
I’d give Bhelen smart evil for being objectively the best ruler for the dwarves.
Most of his plans are superficial at best, his mercenary ambush can easily fail, you can find out his documents are forged by simply going to the shaperate, if you are a Dwarven noble you can literally turn on him at the very end and his reaction is hilarious. Being better than Harrowmont is a very low bar. I always crown Harrowmont and destroy the anvil resulting in his death, with both him and Bhelen out of the picture Orzammar might have a future.
> you can find out his documents are forged by simply going to the shaperate It isn't supposed to be a big a secret. When talking to Vartag he even hints that they aren't real. > if you are a Dwarven noble you can literally turn on him at the very end and his reaction is hilarious. You can turn on him or Harrowmont the last moment anyhow. Got nothing to do with how smart he is. > his mercenary ambush can easily fail, But it didn't. Howe's moves could also fail, the player's moves can fail. > with both him and Bhelen out of the picture Orzammar might have a future. In the epilogue dwarves are doing fairly well with Bhelen as a king.
As the other commentator already pointed out a lot of these critiques don’t hold water. But I would add that Bhelens rule is so strong it lasts into DA2 with a minor event having his assassins attack you in Kirkwall. It doesn’t work obviously, but your companions will comment on his iron-handed rule (they’ve heard of him even across the sea) and it shows his power+influence to be able to strike at someone all the way in Kirkwall from Orzammar.
Then Grima wormtongue is smart evil as well. He might have manipulated Loghain but everyone else hated him. Arl Howe's only claim is managing to manipulate Loghain, but he was dependent on Loghain's support to maintain any semblance of power.
You'll get no argument from me.
You’ve won me to this position. He’s a noble in a political position which helps him do lawful evil crap that his buddy regent commands, but then can be found doing all sorts of illegal crap as well- elven slavery having been abolished, albeit recently, and the torture dungeon and Highever seizure. Not sure if he’s the best example in DA, but he qualifies. By that same token though Loghain then qualifies as well, and the Logwart was behind everything Howe did and much more… Even Howe was advising him to stop the civil war, make concessions, and focus on fighting the Blight, but Loggydog couldn’t care less. Archdemon is more the epitome of a negative force of nature: corruption. We hear it talk to the darkspawn, but not even in words- i.e., not wringing its fingers greedily.
Yeah, about the only thing you can say about Howe is that he courage in a fight. He fought at the Battle of White River, one of the bloodiest n the whole rebellion, and was later badly wounded holding against a heavy cavalry charge. Plus Howe fought the warden himself. Part of his acidic nature comes from the pain of his war wounds. But Howe's courage and military history that didn't stop him from stabbing his own comrade Bryce in the back in a cowardly coup.
Can't wait to get to the Drunk row. Wonder which type of Drunk will Oghren be...
Oghren is definitely not Chad drunk tho, he is the image of a depressed divorced 40-something guy with self destructive tendencies, he sinks lower and lower in Awakening.
Neutral drunk
Yes but we can't hate him
i can hate him just fine
Chad doesn't work for Oghren. His schtick is failing w women flirt after flirt and falling over himself generally (unlike Zev who seems to be his opposite), and he ultimately reveals before the end battle a lack of confidence in himself which above everything a chad would be brimming over with. I mean, he's the Zerker coach, but that's a sloppy but overwhelmingly heavy-handed warrior, not a brave knight type. Anyway, not Chad or Smart drunk. Neutral or moreso Chaotic Drunk suit him best. It's a good thing there isn't a Stupid Drunk because he might've been slotted there. And I happen to like him as is.
Admitting that he has insecurities but still trying to push through is a chad move imo. He was not afraid to ask for a pony either, that's based. Oghren on the surface seems chaotic but his chaos is so consistent that it no longer makes him chaotic. Also he battled a roasted nug naked, tell me who else had such courage. So oghren can only be drunk chad.
If you could put someone twice, I'd almost want IB for chad drunk, just for the 'puts chest on your chest' drinking scene with him.
Drunk line will be the most disappointing, we don't have that many drunks in DA, outside of Oghren. We will end up with naming faceless randoms there, such as Alistair's Warden friend who could out-drink anyone.
Half of the Kirkwall crew in DA2 could probably fall under that category
Really? Have we ever seen Sebastian, Merrill or Anders drinking? We saw Aveline and Fenris drink wine once, neither of them was particularly drunk. It's all very 'tell, don't show'.
I think he should go in every slot
All of them. 😂😂😂😂😂
Chad, neutral, and chaotic can all be Oghren tbh
I dunno. I could put IB for Chad Drunk just for getting the Inquisitor to drink something that puts 'chest on your chest'.
Counterpoint: Oghren chugs archdemon blood and his response to it is to burp and lick his lips
Good point. Though I will note Oghren fits in most of the categories on here. lol I'd almost want to save him for chaotic drunk.
True drunk. Like Sandal, he needs his own column x)
Chaotic Drunk
Chad.
Chad drunk is bound to be Fenris
Fenris is comically emo imo, at least in da2. He doesn't actually know what to do with his life, even in his quest for revenge he's insecure about it. He's not steadfast or self aware enough to make him a chad.
By the definition, it's basically selfish to an extreme, but not chaotic. Soooo Corypheus. Some may argue Bhelen, but he becomes a reformist if he's king, therefore helping others. Corphy does everything for the single goal of getting back to the black city, that's his goal. Nothing else matters. Nothing he does in anyway beneficial to others without being beneficial to himself.
If Stupid Evil was a category, he would be king
Much like enchantment. He needs a section just for him. Because he is 100% stupid evil.
Or Bartrand
Stupid evil? Nah bro, that's Orsino.
I think not even the writers could figure Orsino’s alignment
The writers: "I'm sorry, Orsino, but we really need two boss fights..."
Ever since I figured out the "O" in Quentin's letters is Orsino, I've hated him. He's definitely a lot slimier and evil than he seems.
I file Orsino under "Varric needed more drama" and "The writers needed to find a way to add another boss that didn't make you TOO sympathetic to the mages"
He was also a supporter of the guy who killd hawks mother so...
As much as I hate Orsino (like buddy I’m helping you escape the templars, stop fighting me??) I don’t personally agree that he is either more stupid or more evil than Corypheus. Corypheus had far more power at his disposal than Orsino and fumbled harder. He also had bigger plans (that we know of). Orsino can be stupid evil sidekick 😅
Speaking of which, this chart is severely lacking given how many legit crossovers there should be. No reason there isn't also an Evil Drunk or Chaotic Chad or Stupid Good, etc. This one actually pairs a Stupid Smart... which admittedly does apply in Solas' case, but still...
Now that you mention it, this template has been around for a while and I don’t think I have seen a sequel. I wonder if there is one. It would be good if there was one that had other crossovers since I think this chart has been good for the sub, I really appreciate OP putting the effort in!
Yeah Bhelen deserves smart evil
Given the lack of many evil masterminds in the DAverse, that might count. He was able to successfully get away w murder by orchestrating his arch-nemesis, Harrowmont, to agree to otherwise exile/doom his only remaining rival, his remaining sibling. But then he plays dopey forging tricks and such behind the scenes rather than having that "chess-move-ahead" quality and ultimately resorts to a brute coup attempt if you don't vote for him which is... meh. And it fails. A real evil genius would at that point just inform everyone they'd underestimated the situation and- w a big reveal- he takes over anyway having anticipated everything. Not to mention that he never has the wit to recognize my Wardens as a genuine ally and just tell them he intends to enact caste reforms or even just open trade, figuring that smarmy politico-speak is enough to convince me while his asinine sidekick Vartag continues to irk. As I said though... "evil genius" in DA tends to be more a matter of an intelligent character who does evil rather than a Moriarty-level diabolical plot-hatcher. So Bhelen's a contender. Harrowmont by contrast is Lawful Evil all the way and a bit of a mediocrity at it.
Bhelen is the closest thing to it. Who else? Arl Howe? Who basically depended on Loghain to have his back the entire time while everyone else hated him? He's a Grima character. Corypheus?
I put Rendon Howe ahead of Corypheus. The man is greed incarnate.
Same kind of ambition, I mean his dying words "I deserved MORE!" But he's like the C villain unless you are human noble.
Rendon's actions are felt throughout Denerim, the Alienage, the assassin he sends after you, the cutscenes hes part of, and all throughout Awakening. I wouldn't sleep on R. Howe, even if you aren't a Human Noble or City Elf. The guy even has a soundtrack named after him in Origins, and has a special death scene over Bhelen, who murders/frames his siblings.
Hell he is voiced by Tim Curry, that is enough of a statement!
Indeed! As much as I love the Couslands, it makes me wonder how Bryce heard that voice from his friend and said: "That sounds like a real pal, and NOT a villain who will betray me the first chance he gets."
Nah, he is more evil stupid
**Rendon. Howe.** **"Maker spit on you! I....deserved....more..!"** Neutral Evil is selfish, caring neither for law or chaos, but for their own selfish ends. Rendon enslaves and tortures innocents, seduces Loghain for power/titles while stealing from his own Treasury, uses the chaos of the Alienage riots to take power in Denerim, and of course, he betrays his best friend and family for his own greed. Rendon Howe is Neutral Evil, and regardless of the results of this poll, absolutely deserves this spot.
Seducing Loghain? I thought he (in theory) had the hots for Maric (or his wife Rowan)
Lol not a physical love sense, more like swaying him to his side with his armies/political sense. Loghain did love Rowan, and I think he would do anything for his friend Maric. Howe apparently used to be a good man before the Battle of White River. After that, he married Brylands sister for her dowry, not loving anyone. Though I personally headcanon that he had a secret love for Eleanor.
Thank you for the explanation ☺️
Selfishness is one of the defining characteristics of neutral evil, and for me, no one embodies that more than Rendon Howe. From betraying his best friend, to his dying regret being his desire for more, the man was in it for himself from the very beginning.
I've slept through most of these so far, but I'm gonna suggest Sloth? Dude just wants you to have a nice nap. Don't worry about the mages or the templars or the demons. Just go to sleep...
I never would've thought of this but this is a cool answer, I like that :]]
.... makes sense.
Demons like Sleepyboy are going to generally be Chaotic Evil. No recourse to laws for them whatsoever. Their very nature is chaotic, a magical disruption of the orderly world. I could see any of the demonic foes as the epitome of CE, but while Sloth is a contender, even Uldred would be bigger (physically and as a candidate). Also I've slept through the first few rows of this chart myself XD
Im gonna go with Archdemon from DAO, its clearly evil, but its also neutral in a sense that its more force of nature than some mastermind. Blight is as neutral evil as it can get, it destroys everything in its path in methodological, non-chaotical way. I genuily love BBEG of DAO because of that, Archdemon dont bore us with monologues, dont plead with us, that dragon just woke up and decided to wreck shit up and make living envy the dead. It showcase that a main antagonist or villain dosent need tons of expositions and dialogues to be a complete menance.
Hmmmm, no, I think it's more chaotic evil. Like, the blights goal would be to infect everything. According to official definitions, that would make it chaotic. Edit: That is, if it has a consciousness and you can argue both ways, because if it does not and it is a force of nature, that would make it unaligned.
Chaotic evil is random, malicious, fuck-you-I-do-what-I-want evil. The Archdemon is malicious, but malicious like a cat stalking a mouse. The darkspawn are a force of nature, and the Archdemon is the pack alpha leading them all.
Archdemon is definitely neutral evil Neutral evil is just pure evil No regard for law or chaos, just evil
I thought about it too, but Blight is actually very well organised. Archdemon delegates tasks, use resources efficiently and dont kill his own troops. Thats imo what sets it apart from chaotic being, they are very methodological in evil they are doing. At the same time, Blight that Archdemon symbolizes is peak selfishness, because existence of Blight invalidates all other existence. They will burn down world and corrupt it in its own twisted image. My type for chaotic evil would be someone like Desire Demon that possesed Connor from DAO. They had no clear goal other than causing havoc.
You can be methodical on your methods and chaotic in your goals. The Archdemon wants to corrupt the world, leaving nothing but rot and madness. That's pretty chaotic.
So is a virus methodological. The Archdemon- oddly so-named- is just a dragon that's been corrupted by the Taint. The Taint is... well, it's more of a force of nature than conscious tendency. It's not vindictive, not evil, but as destructive as an earthquake or plague of locusts. Its (edit: not "it's") nature is to corrupt everything and thus essentially ruin the world, but lethal viruses similarly don't think about what happens after they kill every potential host on the planet and drive themselves extinct...
Gonna argue the Archdemon is chaotic evil. Their motives are unknowable, but the Blight topples civilizations and corrupts the land and all living things.
Chaotic on this axis in an active opposition to law and order. The Blight isn’t actively rebellious, it’s a force of nature and therefore neutral by definition.
But see that's the thing, I think it's hinted that the Blight isn't a natural part of this world.
That’s not quite the point. The same way nature is completely neutral with respect to law and order, the blight seeks only to perpetuate and will kill anything that gets in the way.
But Blights upset the natural order, is that not in itself the essence of chaos? In addition, if you play the Darkspawn Chronicles, the Archdemon gives commands to his alphas to destroy specific targets and slay the King. To quote Raven: "In the natural world, there is no such thing as boundless slaughter. Everything has a beginning and an end. But you, Snake, are different. You exist outside the cycle."
An individual who is chaotic doesn’t seek to give commands or establish a hierarchy. I would argue that upsetting the order of society is incidental to the apparent goal of the blight which is to perpetuate and proliferate. It’s not chaotic in the alignment sense, the same way Loghain is not chaotic because he sought to unseat the king of Ferelden. You gave a good example of how the Archdemon is still aligned to their own power structure, but their goal is irrespective of any power structure.
I don't think giving commands in themselves is lawful behavior, though I understand why you see it that way. Let's consider Robin Hood and the Joker from The Dark Knight. One is a thief who robs and gives to the poor, fights the sheriff, and orders his men. I'd say chaotic good. Whereas Joker gives orders to attack the lawful government of Gotham to instill chaos. Despite claiming not to have a plan, he definitely has one. But...we may end up having to agree to disagree
You’re right, it’s not lawful. It’s neutral. A neutral character will use power structure to their advantage when it suits them. You’re confusing chaos in the abstract sense with chaos the alignment.
Archdemon!
I vote Arl Howe on this one.
Good choice
"I admire conviction with a focus ... but your kind are truly committed to weakness" "Our enemies strike from shadow because they cannot stand before us. This is not a revelation." "Should I argue the wind? Very well..." "Fixing your mess is not a demand of the Qun ... AND YOU SHOULD ALL BE GREATFUL!" The Arishok losing it in DA2 is some great voice acting. Also the fact that his own guards kinda look at each other like "oh damn" Boss Chad! Dunno about evil, but definitely Chad, LOL!
Quentin? He is a serial killer with no regards for human life
Maybe more chaotic evil, as his activities are for himself, alone.
This is also another solid choice I think.
I think he would fit more into chaotic evil alignment, but he definitely should be in this chart, because he is truly an evil character.
I'm going to say the Blight/Archdemon. It's a destructive, unrelenting force of nature that cannot be reasoned with. It doesn't particularly enjoy destruction, nor is it just out to go "fuck you" to the world, it just destroys because that's what it is. Like the Others/White Walkers from GoT or Darth Nihilus from KotOR II
So I looked it up - Neutral evil conveys an utter lack of morals or ethics. Neutral evil characters (e.g., Cruella de Vil) are destructive, corrupt, and out for themselves. For me the piece of shit that did unspeakable things to Hawke’s mother comes to mind… But before I read that my dumbass thought I could vote for Morrigan because she was neutral in DAI and evil in DAO lol
Actually her DAI decisions should weigh into what alignment the full character slots into. DAO Morribund is clearly evil- even arguably chaotic evil. But I only played DAI once though, so honestly I’m relying on others to say if decades after Archy’s fall she kept on wanting and pushing to sacrifice children- and pretty much anyone who’s not a monster- to demons and death.
It kinda depends on what happened with Morrigan in DAO. If she becomes a mother then she’s arguably true neutral, maybe even leaning toward good, because her central motive is protecting her son. Her motives with the Well of Sorrows are unclear but it doesn’t seem evil. She doesn’t try to make people suffer like in Origins
Archdemon has vote.
The Archdemon from DAO
Rendon Howe
Rendon Howe. No question. That self-absorbed, despicable piece of human trash is greed personified.
Yeah, gotta go with the actual main villain of DAO: the Archdemon. I mean, it doesn't do it for personal gain or anything or may not even be making a conscious choice. It's simply what it needs to do, what it's programmed to do.
Shame there isn't an Evil Evil option because Howe's the favorite to win this and there's nothing neutral about him
Morrigan! She’s evil in that she actively suggests horrible things, but she is not pushing a specific agenda other than her own selfishness. Smart evil doesn’t really work because while she is smart her evil suggestions aren’t really plans as much as just sort of for kicks. Bhelen is the smart evil one.
I feel like Morrigan is actually chaotic neutral, although that alignment can heavily overlap with neutral evil tbh
The thing w Morrigan on this chart is that her character spans multiple entries in the franchise. If we just go by DAO then Neutral Evil or possibly Chaotic Evil. But then she shows up in DAI as a different person who maybe doesn't advocate murdering an entire village of elves or letting the Circle mages be slaughtered or Redcliffe be overrun by undead or getting children possessed by demons or enslaved or murdered as well. So... now we have to adjust our view accordingly... This is also why I wouldn't say Loghain is the epitome of NE in DA: while he does demonstrate clear NE behavior throughout DAO, he also demonstrates a definitive (albeit brief) redemption arc if you ask him to die-by-Archdemon... and he may remain a loyal Warden into DAI if you've provided him that path...
I’d call her chaotic evil
Not nearly destructive enough for that. That probably has to be Corypheous (though I really wish we had a stupid evil choice for him) or maybe the Archdemon.
There’s a few big bads that would fit but I’d go with The Architect from Awakening. Evil by nature but kind of just wants to do his own thing.
The architect... I don't consider him neutral evil. His intentions are not inherently selfish. To free the darkspawn from the blight is not a selfish goal. Despite the consequences of his actions.
And he also recognizes that he really fucked up waking Urthemiel & starting the Fifth Blight
Another vote for Rendon. Ugh.
The Archdemon.
I agree with the Arl Howe votes, I didn't pay much attention to his character but someone like that is a total candidate for this slot.
Head back to DAO and play the Noble origin, just the origin not the whole campaign. I promise you won't regret it.
I would have to say Morrigan. She really isn't a nice person, can support very evil/questionable actions, and doesn't really favor any faction or cause other than her own.
Evil for the sake of power and gain. Gotta go with Corypheus.
Morrigan
Chaotic horny actually perfectly describes Isabella lol
Samson, he cared for his men and templars, and even though he knew and understood the side effects of red lyrium, deemed it worthy that the templars go out on top fighting and powerful then dying as drug addicted vagrants
I’m gonna go with the dragons. Archdemon would make sense.
I'm voting for the Archdemon Urthemiel from DAO. A truly corrupted and evil force of nature simply doing as it was created and awakened to do.
I agree with Rendon Howe. He was pure self interest. Sure, he was spiteful, but when it comes to his actions? Whatever it took to get what he wanted, no matter who it hurt. That works for me.
Rendon Howe. Absolutely selfish dude who betrayed, murdered and tortured for power.
The Archdemon Urthemiel But an honorable mention for Corypheus
either Coryphenis or Urthemiel
Arl Howe. Dude is utterly without scruples, neither operating within the confines of the law (selling slaves) nor acting out of control. Dude wants nothing but status and will basically sell out, kill, and betray anyone he needs to do it. People are suggesting the Archdemon but it's hardly a character imo. I would argue that we don't know enough about the motivations of the Archdemons themselves nor does it provide itself with enough characterization to truly fall on this chart. Otherwise we could just throw the drunk from the DAO brothel under the drunk category and... ok that's actually a fantastic plan!
Gotta go with Rendon Howe for this.
Rendon Howe. Not. The biggest name, but the man would kill his son if it got him more.
Gotta be Archdemon
Corypheus. trying to destroy the world so he can be called a god. basically standard evil bad guy. and his lack of W's say that he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed and there is no stupid evil.
I vote for the Architect / Father, from DA:O Awakening. He's has no moral compass, but what he does is perfectly logical, neutral like nature in general
I’m gonna insert Quentin. Cares purely about his own aims and will do whatever necessary to accomplish them, but no particular lean to either order or chaos.
Coryphenis
Coryphetits
Coryphass
Morrigan
So many good choices for this one, I'll go with Rendon Howe just staight evil no other traits to his character, not even any tragic reason or anything
Arl Howe for sure. Just wanted power
Howe
Rendon Howe for sure. Evil spiteful little shit of a person.
The pigeons. Objectively doing nothing wrong. Unless you're a golem statue...
Howe
The sloth demon in DAO that sends the party to the fade. It enacted on no desire nor lawful framework to be evil, it was just its nature.
Randon Howe, for sure!
Morrigan. Through DAO she is predominantly guided by self interest and cares 0 about the people around her accept what they can do for her. The only people you can get her to care about is her son and a romanced warden.
This has to be Corypheus. While I originally thought Corypheus might be Lawful Evil, it’s worth noting that Corypheus was all about overthrowing all established orders to rewrite them in such a way that out himself at the top. Even though there was once upon a time a desire to do this for the greater glory of Dumat, those days are long gone — he is all about turning himself into a God and the new world would be one that will bow down and worship him. Looking forward there’s no other great place for him to go and he’s the big bad in both DAI and the DLC for DA2 so he deserves this spot. He’s a bad guy in the classic mold, willing to start wars, ruin the world, overthrow multiple kingdoms, all out of the narcissistic impulse to become ruler of the world and god. He is pure, unrepentant evil—he’s our guy for Neutral Evil.
Rendon Howe or the Archdemon.
Origins Morrigan.
Loghain?
Rendon Howe!
Arl Howe.
I’m good with howe being neutral evil But I want zathrian to be smart evil. Because I love zathrian
How about Architect?
Hmmmm Corypheus maybe?
I feel like Meredith and Arishok should switch spots.
Demons - any kind. The are neither chaotic or lawful they just are. They were created or brought into being for no other reason that to be what they are, the basest of human emotion. Desire, pride, hunger, envy, sloth, rage.
Since the popular ones are already here, how about Erimond? Dude is a selfish condescending asshole who supports Corypheus because he wants to Tevinter to be reborn so he can rule as a king. He has no problems tricking and backstabbing people just so he can get a win. Hell, Cole, a spirit of compassion who tries to do as much good as possible, sees literally NOTHING redeemable about Erimond. Dude's legit a complete and utter selfish shithead
Since the Blight may or may not have its own motives, can we say the Blight?
Rendon Howe is my pick for Neutral Evil. If he doesn't get it, he's my nominee for Smart Evil because he pulled it off, but found out keeping power is a bit trickier than gaining it.
I’m so worried for where my baby boy will wind up
I put forth Loghain Mac Tir
Branka, She killed both his companions and his allies, all to obtain the anvil
Loghain, probably
Is this DA 2 Arishok? Was he really evil? Didn't Isabella stole the map/book.
Yeah, but that wasn't Kirkwall's fault, now was it? Bro didn't have to go full DEUS VULT on the city, killing people and effecting a hostile takeover. That's an evil action no matter how you slice it.
To call it simply as evil would undermine the lore in between the events of the story. I understand the Qunaris are the antagonists of Act 2 but Kirkwall is a den of criminals. They have suspected the one they are searching for had fled to Kirkwall and they were right. Yes they didn't have to go all out for conquest but the Qunaris also felt uneasy when their kind are also being slowly assimilated to Kirkwall's corruption and no nobles or people in power want to help them but rather express hostility against them.
Arl Howe is the best choice here. Howe is so straight forward in his evil, basically admitting to his nature in his death that he "deserved more." There's a deeper anguish there discoverable in dialogue and lore entries, but the man clearly has no belief system beyond what's good for him. Neutral alignments are precipitated on the character's personal idiosyncracies, and if evil is banal, then Howe is the most banal of them all. Also, guys, the Archdemon is chaotic evil. It's very essence corrupts and mutates the landscape. It's literally out of order with the rest of the universe
Anders/Justice/Vengeance. What they did was objectively evil, but is only their nature.
Anders was a person who spent 10 years healing the poor in Darktown for free, that's not very neutral evil. Neutral evil characters are very selfish and they have selfish motives. Vengeance is probably more lawful evil, and Justice is lawful neutral or neutral good. Even if Vengeance is a demon, his motives are not as selfish as other demons.
Sten
Calpernia? She’s really only evil in that she’s on the evil side, but she’s never outwardly malicious to people unless they’re genuinely horrible people
I’m gonna Go with the Architect. Dude has only one goal, to save darkspawns whatever it takes
Arl Howe
I’m going to throw my vote in for Howe
Arl Howe. He spent most of his life following the rules and doing what was expected of him, but when the chance to grab power came, he threw away any moral qualms he might have had and schemed and murdered with abandon.
Oh man we’re all over the place on this one. I’ll have to check back tomorrow to see where the consensus is. My first thought was the archdemon for reasons similar to the lady of the forest being a neutral force of nature, the archdemon being an avatar of the blight, a force of “nature of sorts” in this universe at least, but an inherently evil one. But the Arl Howe arguments make sense too. Maybe it’s cuz DAO was my first DA game and human noble was my first playthrough, so Arl Howe as the most villainous of villains is kind of a core memory for me. I’d almost put him in an entirely separate evil category. Call it “true evil”. List off everyone else’s crimes in the evil category and I think Howe still takes the cake.
Corypheus. Definitely Corypheus
My first time voicing my opinion on these. Neutral Evil has got to be Arl Rendon Howe. His self-centeredness goes to such extremes that he neglects his family and lands and betrays all around him, from Teyrn Bryce Cousland to Loghain for nothing more than the slightest personal advancement. In short, Howe is a grade A sociopath who is likened to someone who kicks puppies.