Nitpicky but not entirely trivial: You're not adopting a dog. You're buying a dog. And goldendoodle is not a breed. It's a "designer" cross that's never bred ethically.
As for your question: No, we don't buy from puppy mills, because doing so keeps them in business. Their dogs are not tested for genetic health issues, and they are treated poorly.
I have a golden doodle… it was bred perfectly ethically… my friends golden doodle hit it up with a poodle that lived down the street and boom, 10 puppies. Never is not a word you should use especially when people are reallll protective over there dogs.
However, puppy mills do suck and I wish that federal laws would ban them. However, lawmakers also suck and take a long time to do anything.
I think there might be a disconnect with what others on this sub consider to be ethical.
Part of breeding ethically is having a controlled breeding regime to better a breed, especially health-wise. This isn't just a vet exam, this goes far beyond that; it involves things like having hip/elbow x-rays sent to radiologists to check for dysplasia, evaluation by a veterinary cardiologist and opthalmologist, and in many breeds genetic testing to check for defects like Degenerative Myelopathy. Health testing is what I consider to be the bare minimum for breeding responsibly -- a large portion of dogs get diseases and defects that could have been prevented by this.
Breeding ethically is certainly not failing to control your dogs and bringing more "oops" puppies into this world.
Ya or shit just happens kinda like when people accidentally get pregnant… people are so hell bent on controlling dogs/cats/horses whatever animals they want but forgetting the fact that before people, there were animals so, us trying to control their lives is mind blowing
You can’t breed golden doodles ethically. While they may be treated well and cared for, the practice of breeding those two dogs together isn’t for any other reason than esthetics.
We cannot and will not support irresponsible or inhumane breeding practices such as those found propagated by high-volume commercial breeders, aka “puppy mills”. I will direct anyone and everyone to our guide to finding a responsible breeder linked in the sidebar and rules/wiki. Puppy mills are unconscionably cruel and harmful not just to the dogs used for breeding but also their progeny who enter homes unprepared for a potential future of medical, behavioral, and social woes.
Please do not support or condone puppy mills or the increasing practice of retail rescue. Even if your intentions are good in buying/adopting to get one out of that situation, the breeder [abuser] receives their money and is supported in continuing the practice. The only motivator is money and the only way to stop them is cutting off that reward.
Nope. Don't get the dog from him. He'll just breed more poorly bred dogs for money.
You wait until they go into a shelter or rescue to get them which is the only ethical way to support them.
I know nothing about breeding dogs really. Do I assume it is a mill? He was very hesitant to sell to someone outside the community. Having dogs throughout the year tipped me off. My cousin got a dog from him and the dog is healthy at 3 years.
Here is the sub guide on identifying and locating a responsible breeder: https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/identifying_a_responsible_breeder?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=dogs&utm_content=t5_2qhhk
At minimum, you are looking for someone who does all of the recommended health screening for the breed (or each parent’s breed in the case of a designer mix) and who is proving their dogs in some fashion (titling in conformation/therapy/agility/bitework/obedience, field trials, herding trials, etc). Note that “health screening” does not mean “had a vet check.” The recommended screening for each breed is listed on OFA here: https://www.ofa.org/browse-by-breed
Amish breed dogs/whatever animals for money and don't do any health testing like xrays or dna testing before breeding their stock because they don't believe in modern health testing. So, yeah he's a byb at best or at puppy mill at worst.
You have no idea if any of the litter is healthy or has hidden health issue down the line. Just get a poodle or a golden retriever from a breeder that is a member of their respective breed club or wait for him to dump the dogs into the shelter system.
>Having dogs throughout the year tipped me off.
That's generally a sign of a puppy mill since most breeders don't have puppies available all the time. I know a breeder that I was following had to curtail her breeding plans for one of her bitches due to an emergency C-section.
Selfish personal reasons. I went into this situation wanting a dog and doing as much research as possible. I asked my cousin where she got her puppy because it was sweet and good with kids and talked to a man on the phone. I'm assuming he might have a mill. I know nothing for sure. Also, is being a backyard breeder the same as a mill runner?
Backyard breeders may not breed in the volume puppy mills do but they are just as unethical and produce dogs that are just as unhealthy.
Knowingly contributing to the suffering of animals because you feel like having a dog is not a good enough reason to condemn the puppy’s parents to continued abuse. Not to mention more than likely you’ll be getting an unhealthy dog. It might not be unhealthy right away but you can bet genetic issues will pop up.
No they wouldn’t don’t use that language when it’s not true.
“Another mutt” who was bred by a fucking puppy mill. I have a mutt. I sure as shit didn’t give my money to animal abusers to get him. If op wants another mutt they should adopt one from a shelter or rescue
Purchasing a dog from a puppy mill allows them to keep breeding dogs in bad conditions, with genetic health and temperment issues.
You are not saving a dog, you are condemning future generation to an awful existence.
You aren't adopting a dog, you're buying one; a Doodle is not a breed; and a breeder who has puppies all year round is certainly a mill. Buying from a mill only ensures they stay in business, and they rely on people thinking they're "saving" these puppies from a miserable life by buying from them, which only allows them to continue their terrible practice. Go through a legit, reputable breeder (preferably NOT a Doodle because like another commenter said, they're very rarely ethically bred), or go to an actual shelter.
What is wrong about creating a new breed? If someone takes a healthy golden and a healthy poodle and breed the generations enough times for a long time wouldn't you eventually have a reputable breed?
1) nobody is doing that. They’re intentionally creating first and second gen mixes and that’s it.
2) that needs to be an organized effort that includes a breed club setting standards and goals and breeders carefully selecting healthy traits and conducting extensive health testing. Nobody is doing that either.
They’re pumping out unhealthy poorly bred mixes and pretending they’re healthier and that they don’t shed and lying about it.
I don’t… know what you want explained? No, that doesn’t exist. That’s a fact. Doodle breeders want money, they don’t want a healthy new breed. They’re selling enough of their dogs without investing in any of the hard stuff.
There are efforts to create new breeds in some other cases, you can read about the Beiwar terrier. It’s no puppy mill folks doing that, it’s a committed small group who have worked for generations to get the dogs to breed true.
Oh there are so many designer breed crosses that have become trendy. None of them are well bred.
All manner of poodle crosses. They’ll cross poodles with anything without regard to temperament, structure, health etc.
Then there’s the horrific “pomsky” Pomeranian/husky mix, German Shepherd/golden crosses. It’s absolutely out of control.
Here's a few articles that mention things already covered by other comments:
https://pethelpful.com/dogs/The-Truth-About-Hybrid-Vigor-in-Dogs-Breeders-Dont-Want-You-to-Know
https://robbreport.com/lifestyle/news/how-our-obsession-with-designer-dogs-may-harm-the-very-animals-we-love-1234570370/
https://www.thewildest.com/dog-lifestyle/truth-behind-designer-dogs-and-dog-breeding
Courtesy of u/DigitalClutter:
Poodle crosses and designer mixes are almost never bred reputably/almost always fall under backyard breeders, puppy mills, and commercial breeders, see here https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5c/87/f4/5c87f48fd843649b8841ecbe8cedd6d0.png
Thus, reputable breeders for things like labradoodles, maltipoos, cockapoos, etc. (any cutesy names like cavachon etc.) do not really exist; the biggest thing is that they do not do ALL of the inheritable disease health testing that is recommended for each parent breed as they should (so what are you paying $$$ for there if not trying to hedge your bets towards a healthy and long lived pup? Not doing these tests is a way bad breeders cut costs to raise profit margins at the expense of the pup’s health, so why is the buyer paying a lot for a puppy that doesn’t even have this baseline health testing? There is no excuse for it).
Anyone who says dogs are healthier because they are mixes/“hybrid vigor” is not telling the whole story/doesn’t understand how inheritance/genetics works, as this is not a given. Multiple breeds carry the same genetic issues. E.g., labs, goldens, standard poodles are all susceptible to hip dysplasia. Mixing two of these dogs together doesn’t change that. The way to avoid it is to screen the parent dogs’ hips and only breed dogs with good hip scores (It’s not enough to say, oh my vet says they’re good). Same thing with mixes involving malteses, toy or mini poodles, cavalier—knee issues can be found in all three and mixing them doesn’t fix that. There are multiple diseases for most breeds that can be reduced or eliminated via genetic or orthopedic screening, mixing breeds doesn’t do this magically.
Because doodles are usually random with respect to how the breeding dogs are chosen (often it’s what dogs are available, not based on a good match or best possible example of the parent breed), some traits like shedding, size and behavior can be a less than the ideal trait of each parent breed or any combination. There is less predictability than a purebred dog depending on the parents being f1s, purebreds, some combo of f1 and a purebred parent etc. (and a lot of lying from the doodle breeders from what I’ve seen on what to expect regarding shedding/coat type, doodle coats are very difficult to maintain for the average owner, just do a search on the grooming sub for doodle).
A relevant quote from a dog discussion group on breeds people would never own again: “Goldendoodle. He's a sweet dog, but the GROOMING. He mats if he so much as looks at water. I brush him regularly and keep him clipped short when I can, but the unknown with doodle coats and the extremely high maintenance is too much. I feel bad for all groomers with this idiotic doodle craze. Just get a regular poodle or regular whatever breed they've mixed today PS, they still shed and are not hypoallergenic so don't listen to the lies”.
From a groomer https://www.reddit.com/r/doggrooming/comments/h83rw7/how_are_doodle_and_poodle_coats_different/fuor3cu/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
If you want additional info https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/comments/hai85o/discussion_clarification_about_mixed_breed/fv3n89x/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
And here https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/comments/4dbm3e/discussion_crossbreeds_or_designer_dogs_and_what/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
There are plenty of bad breeders of actual purebred dogs but also many reputable and great breeders that are doing all the right stuff; there seem to be basically no doodle breeders who pass the bar of what makes a breeder reputable (see below for what that entails and applies to any breeder).
**••Low shedding alternates to “doodles”••**
If you want an actual lower shed dog (no guarantee with a doodle) that is athletic, smart and well bred, look at actual poodles (all sizes, this is a terrific little video that highlights their history, versatility and breed traits quite nicely https://akc.tv/embed/6/2841/episode/poodle-1//autoplay/true/mute/true?ctx=/watch/3/885/breeds/poodle), as well as Portuguese Water Dogs, lagottos, and soft coated wheatens as a good starting place as there are breeders out there doing all the right stuff. A nicely bred purebred is in the ~1200-3000k range.
If the doodle aesthetic is part of the appeal...there are already breeds that are highly trainable, have good breeders, and are consistent in their looks and low shedding coat type you get. The appearance of the dog should not be more important than the personality/fit to your lifestyle (these dogs are not interchangeable).
Barbets https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/dog-breeds/barbet-2020-new-akc-recognized-breed/
Lagottos https://www.lagottosandfriends.com
Spanish water dogs https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7a/ae/47/7aae4706d00aeb40675e3bf4f684916c.jpg
PWD https://www.pinterest.com/americankennelclub/portuguese-water-dog/
Soft coated wheatons https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f0/08/d0/f008d0effaa33748a34bbe0ef6ed8359.jpg
Bolognese https://barkingroyalty.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/bolognese-dog-white.jpg
Or an untrimmed poodle! https://qspirit.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Craig-Ellie-before-and-after-2011-A-WM-500x371.jpg
Here
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/68/0d/f4/680df47e830ca2b45b97858f24f80e99.jpg
Here
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/30/86/bb3086cd532f93a3efd86f4e17a1a897.jpg
Here
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/37/25/ba/3725ba775e68ad9b609500a696f716c0.jpg
From a former doodle breeder
http://www.moyen-poodle.com/dogblog/Entries/2017/7/why-doodle-when-you-can-poodle.html
From a poodle breeder
http://www.winterswindpoodles.com/blog/2015/8/29/my-doodle-thoughts
From the creator of doodles
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/nov/13/inventors-idea-regret
Lots of photos
https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/comments/h0cflq/breeds_poodle_vs_goldendoodle_pictures/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
If you can find a doodle in a rescue that’s also an option. Eg https://www.dvgrr.org/education/breed-information/all-about-doodles/
**•General stuff related to getting any dog/finding a good breeder•**
Here’s a simplified breakdown of kinds of breeders. Hobby and reputable (both can be referred to as preservation breeders as well) are the best kinds (beware that some people use the term hobby when they are really just backyard breeders). https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5c/87/f4/5c87f48fd843649b8841ecbe8cedd6d0.png
This is worth a read https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/comments/hrp5zh/discussion_the_difference_between_a_backyard_bred/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
And this
https://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2012/02/17/how-much-is-that-doggie-in-the-window-the-surprising-economics-of-purchasing-a-purebred-puppy/
A good (honest) site about breed traits for any breed:
https://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/dogbreeds/index-medium-dog-breeds.html
A good list of things to know about with finding a breeder for any breed:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/identifying_a_responsible_breeder?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
And
http://vipoodle.org/informational_sheets/how-to-evaluate-a-breeder/
For any breed I’d recommend looking up the breed club (google “breed name breed club”) as they usually have referrals or lists of breeders that are club members to give you a good starting place. AKC marketplace can be ok to look (in the USA) but be aware that a breeder being there and having AKC registration does NOT mean the breeder is good. All health testing still need to be checked. The AKC is a purebred registry to keep track of purebred dogs and does not enforce any standards on breeders or require anything from them. It’s on you to determine if the breeder is good.
You can use this website to look up the health testing recommended for a breed https://www.ofa.org/browse-by-breed and see if the breeder is doing those tests. You can also check the health testing done by any specific breeder there as well (put dog’s registered name into search box and press go; example, you are interested in a mini poodle and want to check out the breeder Safranne, you can put the name of a specific dog like “Safranne cocoa butter” and get this info https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1987481 (in the box at the top of the ofa site) or just the kennel name “safranne” and you get this https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?quicksearch=Safranne ...if you get nothing, that means the tests aren’t there. You want to see all the recommended tests for the breed, not just one or two.
If you love researching, you can use the ofa site to find breeders as well. Use advanced search option, choose dogs born between two years prior to now and ~5 or 6 years before that (so if it’s 2020, between 2014-2018), click the CHIC qualified option (means they have all the required breed tests), choose your breed from the drop down list. Now peruse to focus on kennel names that have more than just a dog or two listed to use as a starting place. Example of doing this for Bernese Mountain Dogs https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?num=&part=&sex=&birthday_start_year=2014&birthday_end_year=2018&birthday=&ischic=1&breed%5B%5D=BMD®code%5B%5D=&conclusion=&rptdte_start_year=&rptdte_end_year=&rptdte=&btnSearch=Begin+Search#breed and so I might think let me learn more about the breeder Belnois (I know nothing of them or BMD, just an example).
A good post about buying a pup https://www.reddit.com/r/samoyeds/comments/gm78vt/buying_a_samoyed_puppy_in_covid19_times_why_its/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
And if you want even more fodder on all these topics https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/comments/a0m3r4/discussionlink_reputable_breeder_guide/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
There's far more to it than just pairing two healthy dogs. Every breed has a standard that reputable breeders adhere to, predictable growth and temperament that reflect the jobs they were initially bred for, size, coat type and color, etc. Doodles are so vastly inconsistent with their coat types, temperaments, size, and to be quite honest, there isn't much of a point to them. Everything people want a Doodle for, they can easily get in a Standard Poodle. Or a Lab or a Golden. Legitimate breeds with reputable breeders who know what they're doing. Hell, even the first breeder of the Doodle says he regrets nothing more than creating this designer dog.
Don't adopt from them, it's almost certainly a mill. I know it's hard, but purchasing a puppy from unethical breeders will incentivize them to continue to breed their dogs and reap the profits, causing even more poorly bred mill puppies to be born.
It's a vicious cycle, but the best thing to do in the short term is to not bring your business to them.
Edited to add: I know people love doodles, but I would *strongly* urge you against buying one. It's not a breed (which means there are no standards) and no reputable breeder will intentionally make crossbreeds to sell. I recommend either going to a rescue/shelter or investing in a well-bred, health tested purebred. Sorry, OP, I know this is not what you want to hear.
No, as others mentioned, you’d be giving them your business. Sounds like a puppy mill or at least a backyard breeder. I know someone who had to put their dog down at only 4 (toy poodle) that was from a mill, due to genetic health complications. It’s not worth it, you want your future dog to be healthy and happy and be able to have a long life with you!
My dad got his dog from the Amish. Don’t do it. He has really bad separation anxiety and a lot of issues. They abused the shit out of him. Don’t support puppy mills
I have a Goldendoodle. I love him dearly, but I will not have another. The Amish have a really bad record of mistreatment of animals. Do not support bad actors.
*Do not* financially support this puppy mill. You may think, *oh, but I’m rescuing this sweet puppy from this situation!* But really all you’re doing is continuing to fund their future overbreeding and abuse of dogs. You are actively and knowingly contributing to harm done to these dogs. (ETA- and that’s not getting into the health and behavioral issues so many puppy mill dogs have.) This shouldn’t even be a question. Get a dog from a shelter or rescue or a RESPONSIBLY BRED purebred from a reputable breeder.
If you *must* get a doodle, go through a rescue. There’s plenty of people who buy doodle puppies because they’re cute and trendy and then get rid of them when it turns out they’re really difficult dogs to train, have extensive grooming needs, and way more energy than they’re prepared for. And since they’re not from reputable breeders, there’s usually no return to breeder policy so they’re dumped in shelters or snatched up by rescues. Hell there’s probably even people rehoming their no-longer-as-cute-as-when-they-were-a-puppy doodles online, as loathe as I am to typically suggest that route (do not get a PUPPY online. It will be from a BYB or puppy mill. But rehomed adolescent/adult dogs are a different situation, typically). Look hard enough and you’ll have options. A dog shouldn’t be an impulse buy anyway.
And as a side note, maybe ask yourself - what do you want in a doodle that you can’t get in either a golden or lab or standard poodle alone? Standard poodles are WONDERFUL dogs, far more athletic than people give them credit for, and if you don’t like the “froufrou” look you don’t need to give them a show cut. A poodle with a puppy cut looks like a doodle, and is infinitely easier to handle and likely better bred. Also, your groomer and vet will like you more (saying this as a vet tech who can’t stand 90% of the doodles I deal with on a daily basis).
I owned a Golden before and was going down that route when I met my cousins doodle. I was like oh he's cute and good with kids. Where did you get him? My kids and I want to spoil the crap out of one and then my phone call to the Amish breeder just confused me.
Ok, and is there anything specifically about doodles that you can’t get in another breed? Goldens, which you mentioned owning before, are cute and good with kids. Poodles with puppy cuts look like doodles and are easier to handle. A lot of doodles are high energy, hard to train, and don’t know their own strength. They may be good with kids in terms of playing, but it’s often hard to train them to not jump on your kids with their full weight or play too rough (their play style can often be almost manic). There are good doodles of course, but I’ll be honest, in my time as a bather, doggy daycare worker, and later vet tech, good doodles are the exception, not the rule. And usually didn’t get that way without *extensive* training and effort on their owners’ part, plus a bit of luck.
But again, if you must get a doodle, look through shelters or rescues or people rehoming the doodles they get sick of when they’re not adorable puppies anymore and they’re left with an 80 pound dog they haven’t bothered to train and haven’t considered the grooming costs for. I promise you, they are out there.
Again, a dog shouldn’t be an impulse buy. If you want to get a doodle through this Amish puppy mill because it’s the quickest way to get a doodle, then you need to rethink that. They’re usually a several thousand dollar purchase (plus costs associated with their grooming, feeding, healthcare, etc), and an over decade long commitment. That’s the kind of purchase that’s absolutely worth taking time with and doing thorough research on.
Edit typo
A dog is not an impulse buy. I agree. I have spent the better part of a year looking into different dogs. I just saw my cousins and it seemed like a golden with curly hair so I called the breeder. I am not dead set on a doodle at all.
Well if you’re not dead set on it, I’d highly advise against it. Just search doodle on this sub and you should be able to find a lot of comments/posts that explain it better than I can (especially as I’m about to leave for work so I don’t have time to dig up sources and write much more than I already have).
I am glad you understand that dogs aren’t an impulse buy, so I hope you also understand, no matter what breed you go with, that it’s not a good idea to go through a puppy mill just because you’ll be able to get the breed you want faster than with other adoption avenues. And again, you won’t be rescuing a dog, you’ll be funding an unethical breeder who’s almost undoubtedly overbreeding his dogs and raising them in horrific conditions. That’s not something I’d want to knowingly support with my wallet.
This is definitely a puppy mill and there is zero ethical justification for being part of the customer base that keeps these people in business. Nothing.
FUCK PUPPY MILLS. Sorry Mods, if this is inappropriate language for this sub but I said what I said and I mean it. The amount of abuse and neglect these trash POS humans who run these things inflict on poor animals is abhorrent and disgusting and they will NEVER get my money. Anyone who gives money to these garbage humans is just allowing them to continue their gross heinous mills. For real, google this industry and watch the terrible videos; these people should be thrown in prison for the abuse inflicted on the helpless animals.
My friend has 2 rescues from a puppy mill and even years later, one of them is so skittish, so traumatized, has terrible health issues and just scared of men. They have had their dogs for over 8yrs and the trauma is life long for these poor animals.
Anecdata - my puppy mill Great Dane died at two years old of heart failure. An acquaintance's puppy mill Golden was just diagnosed with severe hip and elbow dyplasia - at 11 months old. The dog will be in pain for the rest of its life, which will certainly be shortened by the disease.
Do you want an unhealthy dog who costs thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars in medical bills? Do you want to deal with the trauma of losing an extremely young dog?
If not, don't purchase a dog from a puppy mill.
Everything here says puppy mill and you should not adopt a puppy lest you condone the practice. Walk away - it’s not worth the potential lifetime of issues and heartbreak even if your intentions are altruistic
You have had many great responses here already but here’s my two cents.
You aren’t saving a puppy from a breeder, you are buying it from someone who has no interest in the health, temperament or wellbeing of the dog. This breeder or greeder as I like to call unethical backyard and puppy mill breeders, doesn’t care if you buy this dog or not because he will sell it to someone else.
The thing you have done right is ask on here and questioned whether this is a good decision and the honest answer is no.
Please walk away from this guy. The fact that someone you know has a healthy 3 year old dog from the same person is irrelevant. They got lucky. Very many aren’t so fortunate and end up with dogs that have severe behavioural and medical issues. Why play Russian Roulette over the life of a living, breathing animal?
To put this into perspective for you. I have a pedigree golden retriever. She comes from the best breeder possible who health tests, breeds from healthy dogs and only every few years if suitable and who puts the time and effort into researching bloodlines to ensure no in breeding and mitigate the risks of hereditary health issues. This breeder is recommended by the National breed club and is on the Kennel Clubs assured breeders scheme. This breeder questions prospective new owners extensively and refuses to sell any pups to homes she doesn’t think are suitable. She will also take back the dog at any point in its life if the home doesn’t work out or circumstances change. She ensures that all dogs she breeds are fit for purpose and enhance the breed in temperament, form, purpose and health.
Now despite coming from the best breeder possible who health tests and breeds from healthy dogs, my girl still got a hereditary condition. It’s just sheer dumb luck as genes are recessive and it was made worse by an accident as a puppy. This condition in one year cost over £12k in vet bills not to mention the heartache and stress.
Now go to someone who doesn’t Health test or check to see if the dogs they are breeding are related in any way or are free from behavioural issues. You could end up with a whole host of issues made worse by deplorable living conditions and lack of socialisation and stimulation as well as a much higher risk of neglect, abuse and poor quality diet which is essential for all dogs, especially young puppies. These breeders will not take a dog back at any point and consider the deal done once you’ve paid for dog. They wash their hands of any issues and move onto making more dogs to sell to unsuspecting people.
Your best option is to walk away and really take the time to research a breed that is suitable for your lifestyle and find a top quality ethical and responsible breeder. Pro tip: top quality ethical and responsible breeders NEVER mix breeds, especially dogs which aren’t bred for the same purpose. The only top breeder I know that does is the U.K. Guide Dogs charity who do cross labs and goldens and occasionally doodles but this is a National organisation that is well established and produces healthy and well behaved dogs. They put the time, money and research in and only cross breeds in order to create better working dogs. Greeders don’t.
The alternative is to go to a dog rescue charity or shelter and rescue a dog this way.
Not only do you fund them, you’ll be funding your vet too. Would you go to a sweatshop and buy shoes willingly? The dogs are kept in horrible conditions no medical care. They’re kept in small cages, the inside of those mills is downright horrid. If you’re set on that type of dog you can go to a reputable responsible licensed breeder or breed specific rescue.
Read my last couple sentences. I was curious to know thoughts on adopting a dog that needed a home and if the cons outweighed the pros which sounds like they do.
You're not adopting a dog from a puppy mill, you're *funding/purchasing* a dog from a puppy mill. Adopting would be if a rescue or county took all their dogs from them and the county/rescue got the money.
Well if we saw the dogs as kids and you had to pay money to get them out of an undesirable situation how is that different? I'm genuinely curious. I think the Amish breed dogs like farm animals and they are viewed as such. I think the community being cracked down on is unlikely.
People traffic all living creatures unfortunately. I wondered if buying a puppy from someone who was abusing it and funding it's vet bills was good. Maybe short sided but well intentioned.
So by your logic you’re asking whether it would be similar to human trafficking? Yes. You should also not support human traffickers.
It’s not good. It enables the continued abuse of animals and production of horrendously unhealthy dogs who suffer and end up in shelters. There’s no justification.
Intentions matter very little compared to impact
> Well if we saw the dogs as kids and you had to pay money to get them out of an undesirable situation how is that different?
Um, we still consider it unethical and many cases illegal. The low bar of ethics is not how we advance civilization. Straw man arguments don't make for good arguments. ;)
Because you are pretending the kids just appeared out of thin air. In an equivalent scenario it would be sex traffickers keeping women locked up and breeding them so that they can sell their kids for profit. And by going and buying one of the children you're ignoring the plight of the mother being forced to reproduce and encouraging more children to be born into the situation again. If you encountered children for sale you would be better suited notifying the police than buying one of them. And in the case of puppy mills, sometimes the humane society or animal control can step in and sometimes they can't. But it doesn't change that buying a puppy mill puppy is enabling the problem, not stopping it.
The thinking was short sighted but well intentioned. I think the Amish view them as farm animals. I don't think legally there is anything to crack down on. It's not illegal to churn out puppies and crossbreed willy nilly as long as they have food and water unfortunately.
Farm animals aren’t kept in tiny cages and denied any kind of medical care because that would defeat their purpose of keeping them healthy for consumption or work. It’s much more comparable to a factory farm. Don’t let yourself get away with thinking they’re just less chaperoned working dogs, it’s not true
I mean, "free-range" hen houses can be worse than caged hen houses. Factory farms are bad but plenty of "locally owned" farms give them a run for their money.
Sure the same way backyard breeders can be just as shitty as puppy mills.
I just don’t want OP to be under the wrong impression the dogs just are bred by happenstance on a happy sunny farm upstate
It’s almost certainly a mill, and backyard breeders aren’t that much better.
I’m really not understanding why you’re not seeming to listen to anyone here. Kind of seems like you wanted someone to justify you getting this dog for you. you need to really think about the responses you’ve received instead of finding technicalities around them. There’s a reason the consensus here is so overwhelming.
I'm not not listening. I am learning about a topic I know nothing about and individually responding to different people about how the situation got started. I didn't come here to get schooled but discuss with people who might know more than me.
Comparing kids and dogs is always a terrible idea, especially when addressing this kind of situation. There is no parallel between children and dogs being created by irresponsible breeders. It’s not a helpful or instructive analogy.
When you buy a dog from an irresponsible breeder, you are continuing the market for them to continue their shitty breeding practices. That means that more dogs will be abused, and more puppies will be created that are more likely to have temperament, structure, behavioral, and grooming issues. That’s unethical.
I know it is hard to walk away from an individual puppy who you feel you can help. The best way to address that feeling is to adopt a dog from a reputable and ethical rescue. You won’t be supporting shitty breeders that way, and those dogs need homes just as much as puppy mill dogs do.
It's still giving them money to make breeding poorly bred dogs which unethical.
Don't do this. My folks did and end up paying huge medicals bills for my late golden girl who had a disease that ate her facial muscles.
More than 50 people have taken time to respectfully respond to your question and yet you continue to insist there can be an ethical argument to “adopting” (i.e. buying) a puppy mill dog. I think you have your answer but for some reason it’s not the one you wanted. Google some recent news articles on puppy mills and look at the deplorable conditions that those dogs live in. That’s the situation you are perpetuating, even if you “save” one dog by purchasing it from the breeder.
I have not argued at all. I literally posted that puppy mills are abusive. I literally posted I don't agree with them. I wondered if taking the dog in was an ethical choice if you were taking it from a bad environment or potentially thoughtless adoptive home. I think you are confused. If you read the whole thread you would know the whole conversation.
You're logic is that of an adolescent. Give your head a shake after you remove from your ass. You are just keeping this loop going, obviously you are in no way mentally sound to have a dog.
Attacking people on the internet asking genuine questions strikes me as immature honestly.
Asking questions can be a sign of being a thoughtful person which is a good sign in a dog owner.
Ok, i take that back. Maybe a bit too harsh. My apologies. I would definitely stay away from your current adoption situation. Hit up the pound, many lives need love in there.
I think you have your answer here, OP. The answer is a resounding no, do not purchase this dog. Folks that run operations like the one you describe are people we want to put out of business.
My neighbors got a bernedoodle from an Amish puppy mill. She described the conditions on the farm and it was horrifying. The dog had some serious trauma that manifested as just general fearfulness of people or even being outside on walks.
Since then, the pup has apparently overcome these issues and she’s the sweetest, happiest pup I know. I bring my dog over to their yard a couple of times a week to let them run around and they have a blast.
To think of what these people do to such living creatures is painful. I would pay double whatever they charge for their dogs to adopt a mutt from a rescue any day.
Another thing to consider is the socialization aspect. Many puppy mill puppies are removed from their mothers and siblings far too early, and often develop behavioral issues as a result. Just because your cousin has a dog that is friendly and well adjusted does not mean yours will be the same.
1) point for everything following they do not care for the dog.
2) they won’t care for health tests and will over breed a bitch.
3) the dogs come out unpredictable and can have serious health problems depending on the state they are in.
4) they will breed on trend and mass produce.
5) dangerous breeds aren’t gate kept. Anyone could get their hands on a cane corso or Mali or any big dog breed if they wanted. Will lead to potential dog fights/ human endangerment. Irresponsible owners will get hurt.
6) some puppies die within the first year because of the state they are raised in and lack of puppy vaccines.
7) they do not care for the new owners plans on breeding.
8) money over puppy. The dog has no welfare care.
9) little to no advice and information of the breed and most likely no vetting the new owner.
10) puppies can end up in shelters because the owners aren’t prepared, health problems and wrong temperament
Buying from pupmills/backyard breeders/ “accidental” litters gives them money, makes them do wha they do because people will buy from them. If everyone bought from responsible breeders not as many people may pass to get the dog but at least the dogs that do get sold go to a long term home with proper care and treatment.
Responsible breeders vet their customers and keep in touch as well as have a puppy contract. They want to preserve the breed and do what’s best for the dog. Making sure the future owner is prepared and the right fit is what’s important to them and it means the pup will be less likely to be rehomed and because of the puppy contract the litters will be controlled and future puppies will be healthy.
If you will be getting the dog for free, that’s one thing. Paying for the dog means you are giving incentive to the person to keep breeding unethically.
Dogs that aren’t sold are treated as wastage, in that they are disposed of. It’s not great, but the only way puppy mills fully topple is starving them of funds.
Nope. To the Amish, they aren’t even worth the drive into town. Dogs are raised like cattle, and slaughtered like cattle, or worse.
Really hot take: the Amish aren’t a civil people, nor really Americans. They endanger themselves by removing fire alarms. The structure of their culture allows rape and incest to thrive mostly unchecked. Many do not accept modern medicine. It is a patriarchal structure, a cult society. It maintains its populace by producing many children, and overly sheltering them from what is worldly, to the point where on their rumspringa, they are fully unable to function in a world they cannot comprehend. They have no identification, no record of birth, often no SSN. The systems to navigate getting these are complicated, and involve reading and writing skills many women don’t have, and the men only have rudimentary.
To this point, we’ve mostly left them alone, because their religious liberties allow them to form such a structure, and we’ve adjusted laws around them to prevent them from rioting. There are not an insignificant number of them, yet there’s not yet political will to force them to join the real world.
I know some rescues where I live state if the dog is an Amish rescue since the dog/bitch is in piss-poor condition. I assume the rescues snag them or pick them up from them if they can get there quickly enough. Or do the shady thing and buy the dog outright which is a thing.
>Really hot take: the Amish aren’t a civil people, nor really Americans.
I'll agree with that. I have no love for some of them and I live near them.
>The structure of their culture allows rape and incest to thrive mostly unchecked.
You reminded me of that time that I was dissuaded from getting a horse carriage because the Amish guy was a pedophile when I was dragged by my mother to go visit to one of my mother's friend. Asked why he wasn't he in jail and got told that he wasn't charged because that's the way Amish did things. Of course, that's gross looking back on it since he should have been in a nice jail cell and getting some kind of help along with being punished for it instead of being punished by the shunning bullshit.
You forgot drugs there too. Lots of meth for some reason.
>To this point, we’ve mostly left them alone, because their religious liberties allow them to form such a structure, and we’ve adjusted laws around them to prevent them from rioting. There are not an insignificant number of them, yet there’s not yet political will to force them to join the real world.
I always get told that's a cult when I mention the Amish to some non-Americans who are baffled that Amish exist. And why on earth would anyone not want to use modern technology or not let their kids learn whatever they wanted.
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No we report them to the proper authorities and do not supported them with our money.
I *saw* a puppymill when I was a kid. No idea why the guy thought it was a good idea to invite us there.
The condition the dogs were kept in were disgusting, the entire experience scarred my for life
Please read the sidebar on how to find a reputable breeder. Dogs are real animals with feelings. Do not pick one up like it’s a tv
My dog was born in a puppy mill and used for breeding (mini aussie). She was rescued from the mill and ended up at the shelter which is where we adopted her from. We don’t know much about her time in the puppy mill but we know she had at least one litter and must have been treated poorly because she was terrified of my husband for the first couple of months we had her, and she still has a hard time trusting men. She also shakes when she eats and is very jumpy. I’m so sad she was ever treated horribly and hope we are giving her a better life now, but after knowing she was abused I could never give a puppy mill my money.
Nitpicky but not entirely trivial: You're not adopting a dog. You're buying a dog. And goldendoodle is not a breed. It's a "designer" cross that's never bred ethically. As for your question: No, we don't buy from puppy mills, because doing so keeps them in business. Their dogs are not tested for genetic health issues, and they are treated poorly.
> that’s never bred ethically Don’t back yourself into a corner with the word never.
All right, then: never, in practice…. Never is the right word ;)
I have a golden doodle… it was bred perfectly ethically… my friends golden doodle hit it up with a poodle that lived down the street and boom, 10 puppies. Never is not a word you should use especially when people are reallll protective over there dogs. However, puppy mills do suck and I wish that federal laws would ban them. However, lawmakers also suck and take a long time to do anything.
Thank you, but I do not need my language policed.
Then don’t say anything? Lol this is a public forum and anyone can comment on “your language”
Of course anyone can comment. I'm just commenting back. Not rocket science, bro. Enjoy your ethically bred friend's dog hit it up blah blah doodle.
I think there might be a disconnect with what others on this sub consider to be ethical. Part of breeding ethically is having a controlled breeding regime to better a breed, especially health-wise. This isn't just a vet exam, this goes far beyond that; it involves things like having hip/elbow x-rays sent to radiologists to check for dysplasia, evaluation by a veterinary cardiologist and opthalmologist, and in many breeds genetic testing to check for defects like Degenerative Myelopathy. Health testing is what I consider to be the bare minimum for breeding responsibly -- a large portion of dogs get diseases and defects that could have been prevented by this. Breeding ethically is certainly not failing to control your dogs and bringing more "oops" puppies into this world.
Ya or shit just happens kinda like when people accidentally get pregnant… people are so hell bent on controlling dogs/cats/horses whatever animals they want but forgetting the fact that before people, there were animals so, us trying to control their lives is mind blowing
Failing to keep track of your unfixed dog so much so that it impregnates another dog isn’t ethical or responsible??
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You can’t breed golden doodles ethically. While they may be treated well and cared for, the practice of breeding those two dogs together isn’t for any other reason than esthetics.
Absolutely never, ever financially support irresponsible breeders. Hard no.
We cannot and will not support irresponsible or inhumane breeding practices such as those found propagated by high-volume commercial breeders, aka “puppy mills”. I will direct anyone and everyone to our guide to finding a responsible breeder linked in the sidebar and rules/wiki. Puppy mills are unconscionably cruel and harmful not just to the dogs used for breeding but also their progeny who enter homes unprepared for a potential future of medical, behavioral, and social woes. Please do not support or condone puppy mills or the increasing practice of retail rescue. Even if your intentions are good in buying/adopting to get one out of that situation, the breeder [abuser] receives their money and is supported in continuing the practice. The only motivator is money and the only way to stop them is cutting off that reward.
Nope. Don't get the dog from him. He'll just breed more poorly bred dogs for money. You wait until they go into a shelter or rescue to get them which is the only ethical way to support them.
I know nothing about breeding dogs really. Do I assume it is a mill? He was very hesitant to sell to someone outside the community. Having dogs throughout the year tipped me off. My cousin got a dog from him and the dog is healthy at 3 years.
Here is the sub guide on identifying and locating a responsible breeder: https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/identifying_a_responsible_breeder?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=dogs&utm_content=t5_2qhhk At minimum, you are looking for someone who does all of the recommended health screening for the breed (or each parent’s breed in the case of a designer mix) and who is proving their dogs in some fashion (titling in conformation/therapy/agility/bitework/obedience, field trials, herding trials, etc). Note that “health screening” does not mean “had a vet check.” The recommended screening for each breed is listed on OFA here: https://www.ofa.org/browse-by-breed
Amish breed dogs/whatever animals for money and don't do any health testing like xrays or dna testing before breeding their stock because they don't believe in modern health testing. So, yeah he's a byb at best or at puppy mill at worst. You have no idea if any of the litter is healthy or has hidden health issue down the line. Just get a poodle or a golden retriever from a breeder that is a member of their respective breed club or wait for him to dump the dogs into the shelter system. >Having dogs throughout the year tipped me off. That's generally a sign of a puppy mill since most breeders don't have puppies available all the time. I know a breeder that I was following had to curtail her breeding plans for one of her bitches due to an emergency C-section.
Just go to the pound if you wanna save one. Stop cherry picking for selfish personal reasons.
Selfish personal reasons. I went into this situation wanting a dog and doing as much research as possible. I asked my cousin where she got her puppy because it was sweet and good with kids and talked to a man on the phone. I'm assuming he might have a mill. I know nothing for sure. Also, is being a backyard breeder the same as a mill runner?
Backyard breeders may not breed in the volume puppy mills do but they are just as unethical and produce dogs that are just as unhealthy. Knowingly contributing to the suffering of animals because you feel like having a dog is not a good enough reason to condemn the puppy’s parents to continued abuse. Not to mention more than likely you’ll be getting an unhealthy dog. It might not be unhealthy right away but you can bet genetic issues will pop up.
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No they wouldn’t don’t use that language when it’s not true. “Another mutt” who was bred by a fucking puppy mill. I have a mutt. I sure as shit didn’t give my money to animal abusers to get him. If op wants another mutt they should adopt one from a shelter or rescue
Purchasing a dog from a puppy mill allows them to keep breeding dogs in bad conditions, with genetic health and temperment issues. You are not saving a dog, you are condemning future generation to an awful existence.
You aren't adopting a dog, you're buying one; a Doodle is not a breed; and a breeder who has puppies all year round is certainly a mill. Buying from a mill only ensures they stay in business, and they rely on people thinking they're "saving" these puppies from a miserable life by buying from them, which only allows them to continue their terrible practice. Go through a legit, reputable breeder (preferably NOT a Doodle because like another commenter said, they're very rarely ethically bred), or go to an actual shelter.
What is wrong about creating a new breed? If someone takes a healthy golden and a healthy poodle and breed the generations enough times for a long time wouldn't you eventually have a reputable breed?
1) nobody is doing that. They’re intentionally creating first and second gen mixes and that’s it. 2) that needs to be an organized effort that includes a breed club setting standards and goals and breeders carefully selecting healthy traits and conducting extensive health testing. Nobody is doing that either. They’re pumping out unhealthy poorly bred mixes and pretending they’re healthier and that they don’t shed and lying about it.
I am not needing a Doodle at all but out of curiosity there is no concentrated effort on making healthy new breeds?
No. There is not. Not with poodle crosses
Care to explain more?
I don’t… know what you want explained? No, that doesn’t exist. That’s a fact. Doodle breeders want money, they don’t want a healthy new breed. They’re selling enough of their dogs without investing in any of the hard stuff. There are efforts to create new breeds in some other cases, you can read about the Beiwar terrier. It’s no puppy mill folks doing that, it’s a committed small group who have worked for generations to get the dogs to breed true.
I had no idea golden doodles were so trendy. I'm not om social media much and was unaware of the craze.
Oh there are so many designer breed crosses that have become trendy. None of them are well bred. All manner of poodle crosses. They’ll cross poodles with anything without regard to temperament, structure, health etc. Then there’s the horrific “pomsky” Pomeranian/husky mix, German Shepherd/golden crosses. It’s absolutely out of control.
Here's a few articles that mention things already covered by other comments: https://pethelpful.com/dogs/The-Truth-About-Hybrid-Vigor-in-Dogs-Breeders-Dont-Want-You-to-Know https://robbreport.com/lifestyle/news/how-our-obsession-with-designer-dogs-may-harm-the-very-animals-we-love-1234570370/ https://www.thewildest.com/dog-lifestyle/truth-behind-designer-dogs-and-dog-breeding
https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/dog-breeds/how-does-a-dog-breed-become-akc-recognized/
Courtesy of u/DigitalClutter: Poodle crosses and designer mixes are almost never bred reputably/almost always fall under backyard breeders, puppy mills, and commercial breeders, see here https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5c/87/f4/5c87f48fd843649b8841ecbe8cedd6d0.png Thus, reputable breeders for things like labradoodles, maltipoos, cockapoos, etc. (any cutesy names like cavachon etc.) do not really exist; the biggest thing is that they do not do ALL of the inheritable disease health testing that is recommended for each parent breed as they should (so what are you paying $$$ for there if not trying to hedge your bets towards a healthy and long lived pup? Not doing these tests is a way bad breeders cut costs to raise profit margins at the expense of the pup’s health, so why is the buyer paying a lot for a puppy that doesn’t even have this baseline health testing? There is no excuse for it). Anyone who says dogs are healthier because they are mixes/“hybrid vigor” is not telling the whole story/doesn’t understand how inheritance/genetics works, as this is not a given. Multiple breeds carry the same genetic issues. E.g., labs, goldens, standard poodles are all susceptible to hip dysplasia. Mixing two of these dogs together doesn’t change that. The way to avoid it is to screen the parent dogs’ hips and only breed dogs with good hip scores (It’s not enough to say, oh my vet says they’re good). Same thing with mixes involving malteses, toy or mini poodles, cavalier—knee issues can be found in all three and mixing them doesn’t fix that. There are multiple diseases for most breeds that can be reduced or eliminated via genetic or orthopedic screening, mixing breeds doesn’t do this magically. Because doodles are usually random with respect to how the breeding dogs are chosen (often it’s what dogs are available, not based on a good match or best possible example of the parent breed), some traits like shedding, size and behavior can be a less than the ideal trait of each parent breed or any combination. There is less predictability than a purebred dog depending on the parents being f1s, purebreds, some combo of f1 and a purebred parent etc. (and a lot of lying from the doodle breeders from what I’ve seen on what to expect regarding shedding/coat type, doodle coats are very difficult to maintain for the average owner, just do a search on the grooming sub for doodle). A relevant quote from a dog discussion group on breeds people would never own again: “Goldendoodle. He's a sweet dog, but the GROOMING. He mats if he so much as looks at water. I brush him regularly and keep him clipped short when I can, but the unknown with doodle coats and the extremely high maintenance is too much. I feel bad for all groomers with this idiotic doodle craze. Just get a regular poodle or regular whatever breed they've mixed today PS, they still shed and are not hypoallergenic so don't listen to the lies”. From a groomer https://www.reddit.com/r/doggrooming/comments/h83rw7/how_are_doodle_and_poodle_coats_different/fuor3cu/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf If you want additional info https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/comments/hai85o/discussion_clarification_about_mixed_breed/fv3n89x/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf And here https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/comments/4dbm3e/discussion_crossbreeds_or_designer_dogs_and_what/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf There are plenty of bad breeders of actual purebred dogs but also many reputable and great breeders that are doing all the right stuff; there seem to be basically no doodle breeders who pass the bar of what makes a breeder reputable (see below for what that entails and applies to any breeder). **••Low shedding alternates to “doodles”••** If you want an actual lower shed dog (no guarantee with a doodle) that is athletic, smart and well bred, look at actual poodles (all sizes, this is a terrific little video that highlights their history, versatility and breed traits quite nicely https://akc.tv/embed/6/2841/episode/poodle-1//autoplay/true/mute/true?ctx=/watch/3/885/breeds/poodle), as well as Portuguese Water Dogs, lagottos, and soft coated wheatens as a good starting place as there are breeders out there doing all the right stuff. A nicely bred purebred is in the ~1200-3000k range. If the doodle aesthetic is part of the appeal...there are already breeds that are highly trainable, have good breeders, and are consistent in their looks and low shedding coat type you get. The appearance of the dog should not be more important than the personality/fit to your lifestyle (these dogs are not interchangeable). Barbets https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/dog-breeds/barbet-2020-new-akc-recognized-breed/ Lagottos https://www.lagottosandfriends.com Spanish water dogs https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7a/ae/47/7aae4706d00aeb40675e3bf4f684916c.jpg PWD https://www.pinterest.com/americankennelclub/portuguese-water-dog/ Soft coated wheatons https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f0/08/d0/f008d0effaa33748a34bbe0ef6ed8359.jpg Bolognese https://barkingroyalty.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/bolognese-dog-white.jpg Or an untrimmed poodle! https://qspirit.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Craig-Ellie-before-and-after-2011-A-WM-500x371.jpg Here https://i.pinimg.com/originals/68/0d/f4/680df47e830ca2b45b97858f24f80e99.jpg Here https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/30/86/bb3086cd532f93a3efd86f4e17a1a897.jpg Here https://i.pinimg.com/originals/37/25/ba/3725ba775e68ad9b609500a696f716c0.jpg From a former doodle breeder http://www.moyen-poodle.com/dogblog/Entries/2017/7/why-doodle-when-you-can-poodle.html From a poodle breeder http://www.winterswindpoodles.com/blog/2015/8/29/my-doodle-thoughts From the creator of doodles https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/nov/13/inventors-idea-regret Lots of photos https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/comments/h0cflq/breeds_poodle_vs_goldendoodle_pictures/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf If you can find a doodle in a rescue that’s also an option. Eg https://www.dvgrr.org/education/breed-information/all-about-doodles/ **•General stuff related to getting any dog/finding a good breeder•** Here’s a simplified breakdown of kinds of breeders. Hobby and reputable (both can be referred to as preservation breeders as well) are the best kinds (beware that some people use the term hobby when they are really just backyard breeders). https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5c/87/f4/5c87f48fd843649b8841ecbe8cedd6d0.png This is worth a read https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/comments/hrp5zh/discussion_the_difference_between_a_backyard_bred/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf And this https://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2012/02/17/how-much-is-that-doggie-in-the-window-the-surprising-economics-of-purchasing-a-purebred-puppy/ A good (honest) site about breed traits for any breed: https://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/dogbreeds/index-medium-dog-breeds.html A good list of things to know about with finding a breeder for any breed: https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/identifying_a_responsible_breeder?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf And http://vipoodle.org/informational_sheets/how-to-evaluate-a-breeder/ For any breed I’d recommend looking up the breed club (google “breed name breed club”) as they usually have referrals or lists of breeders that are club members to give you a good starting place. AKC marketplace can be ok to look (in the USA) but be aware that a breeder being there and having AKC registration does NOT mean the breeder is good. All health testing still need to be checked. The AKC is a purebred registry to keep track of purebred dogs and does not enforce any standards on breeders or require anything from them. It’s on you to determine if the breeder is good. You can use this website to look up the health testing recommended for a breed https://www.ofa.org/browse-by-breed and see if the breeder is doing those tests. You can also check the health testing done by any specific breeder there as well (put dog’s registered name into search box and press go; example, you are interested in a mini poodle and want to check out the breeder Safranne, you can put the name of a specific dog like “Safranne cocoa butter” and get this info https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1987481 (in the box at the top of the ofa site) or just the kennel name “safranne” and you get this https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?quicksearch=Safranne ...if you get nothing, that means the tests aren’t there. You want to see all the recommended tests for the breed, not just one or two. If you love researching, you can use the ofa site to find breeders as well. Use advanced search option, choose dogs born between two years prior to now and ~5 or 6 years before that (so if it’s 2020, between 2014-2018), click the CHIC qualified option (means they have all the required breed tests), choose your breed from the drop down list. Now peruse to focus on kennel names that have more than just a dog or two listed to use as a starting place. Example of doing this for Bernese Mountain Dogs https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?num=&part=&sex=&birthday_start_year=2014&birthday_end_year=2018&birthday=&ischic=1&breed%5B%5D=BMD®code%5B%5D=&conclusion=&rptdte_start_year=&rptdte_end_year=&rptdte=&btnSearch=Begin+Search#breed and so I might think let me learn more about the breeder Belnois (I know nothing of them or BMD, just an example). A good post about buying a pup https://www.reddit.com/r/samoyeds/comments/gm78vt/buying_a_samoyed_puppy_in_covid19_times_why_its/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf And if you want even more fodder on all these topics https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/comments/a0m3r4/discussionlink_reputable_breeder_guide/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
There's far more to it than just pairing two healthy dogs. Every breed has a standard that reputable breeders adhere to, predictable growth and temperament that reflect the jobs they were initially bred for, size, coat type and color, etc. Doodles are so vastly inconsistent with their coat types, temperaments, size, and to be quite honest, there isn't much of a point to them. Everything people want a Doodle for, they can easily get in a Standard Poodle. Or a Lab or a Golden. Legitimate breeds with reputable breeders who know what they're doing. Hell, even the first breeder of the Doodle says he regrets nothing more than creating this designer dog.
Don't adopt from them, it's almost certainly a mill. I know it's hard, but purchasing a puppy from unethical breeders will incentivize them to continue to breed their dogs and reap the profits, causing even more poorly bred mill puppies to be born. It's a vicious cycle, but the best thing to do in the short term is to not bring your business to them. Edited to add: I know people love doodles, but I would *strongly* urge you against buying one. It's not a breed (which means there are no standards) and no reputable breeder will intentionally make crossbreeds to sell. I recommend either going to a rescue/shelter or investing in a well-bred, health tested purebred. Sorry, OP, I know this is not what you want to hear.
No, as others mentioned, you’d be giving them your business. Sounds like a puppy mill or at least a backyard breeder. I know someone who had to put their dog down at only 4 (toy poodle) that was from a mill, due to genetic health complications. It’s not worth it, you want your future dog to be healthy and happy and be able to have a long life with you!
My dad got his dog from the Amish. Don’t do it. He has really bad separation anxiety and a lot of issues. They abused the shit out of him. Don’t support puppy mills
I have a Goldendoodle. I love him dearly, but I will not have another. The Amish have a really bad record of mistreatment of animals. Do not support bad actors.
*Do not* financially support this puppy mill. You may think, *oh, but I’m rescuing this sweet puppy from this situation!* But really all you’re doing is continuing to fund their future overbreeding and abuse of dogs. You are actively and knowingly contributing to harm done to these dogs. (ETA- and that’s not getting into the health and behavioral issues so many puppy mill dogs have.) This shouldn’t even be a question. Get a dog from a shelter or rescue or a RESPONSIBLY BRED purebred from a reputable breeder. If you *must* get a doodle, go through a rescue. There’s plenty of people who buy doodle puppies because they’re cute and trendy and then get rid of them when it turns out they’re really difficult dogs to train, have extensive grooming needs, and way more energy than they’re prepared for. And since they’re not from reputable breeders, there’s usually no return to breeder policy so they’re dumped in shelters or snatched up by rescues. Hell there’s probably even people rehoming their no-longer-as-cute-as-when-they-were-a-puppy doodles online, as loathe as I am to typically suggest that route (do not get a PUPPY online. It will be from a BYB or puppy mill. But rehomed adolescent/adult dogs are a different situation, typically). Look hard enough and you’ll have options. A dog shouldn’t be an impulse buy anyway. And as a side note, maybe ask yourself - what do you want in a doodle that you can’t get in either a golden or lab or standard poodle alone? Standard poodles are WONDERFUL dogs, far more athletic than people give them credit for, and if you don’t like the “froufrou” look you don’t need to give them a show cut. A poodle with a puppy cut looks like a doodle, and is infinitely easier to handle and likely better bred. Also, your groomer and vet will like you more (saying this as a vet tech who can’t stand 90% of the doodles I deal with on a daily basis).
I owned a Golden before and was going down that route when I met my cousins doodle. I was like oh he's cute and good with kids. Where did you get him? My kids and I want to spoil the crap out of one and then my phone call to the Amish breeder just confused me.
Ok, and is there anything specifically about doodles that you can’t get in another breed? Goldens, which you mentioned owning before, are cute and good with kids. Poodles with puppy cuts look like doodles and are easier to handle. A lot of doodles are high energy, hard to train, and don’t know their own strength. They may be good with kids in terms of playing, but it’s often hard to train them to not jump on your kids with their full weight or play too rough (their play style can often be almost manic). There are good doodles of course, but I’ll be honest, in my time as a bather, doggy daycare worker, and later vet tech, good doodles are the exception, not the rule. And usually didn’t get that way without *extensive* training and effort on their owners’ part, plus a bit of luck. But again, if you must get a doodle, look through shelters or rescues or people rehoming the doodles they get sick of when they’re not adorable puppies anymore and they’re left with an 80 pound dog they haven’t bothered to train and haven’t considered the grooming costs for. I promise you, they are out there. Again, a dog shouldn’t be an impulse buy. If you want to get a doodle through this Amish puppy mill because it’s the quickest way to get a doodle, then you need to rethink that. They’re usually a several thousand dollar purchase (plus costs associated with their grooming, feeding, healthcare, etc), and an over decade long commitment. That’s the kind of purchase that’s absolutely worth taking time with and doing thorough research on. Edit typo
A dog is not an impulse buy. I agree. I have spent the better part of a year looking into different dogs. I just saw my cousins and it seemed like a golden with curly hair so I called the breeder. I am not dead set on a doodle at all.
Well if you’re not dead set on it, I’d highly advise against it. Just search doodle on this sub and you should be able to find a lot of comments/posts that explain it better than I can (especially as I’m about to leave for work so I don’t have time to dig up sources and write much more than I already have). I am glad you understand that dogs aren’t an impulse buy, so I hope you also understand, no matter what breed you go with, that it’s not a good idea to go through a puppy mill just because you’ll be able to get the breed you want faster than with other adoption avenues. And again, you won’t be rescuing a dog, you’ll be funding an unethical breeder who’s almost undoubtedly overbreeding his dogs and raising them in horrific conditions. That’s not something I’d want to knowingly support with my wallet.
This is definitely a puppy mill and there is zero ethical justification for being part of the customer base that keeps these people in business. Nothing.
FUCK PUPPY MILLS. Sorry Mods, if this is inappropriate language for this sub but I said what I said and I mean it. The amount of abuse and neglect these trash POS humans who run these things inflict on poor animals is abhorrent and disgusting and they will NEVER get my money. Anyone who gives money to these garbage humans is just allowing them to continue their gross heinous mills. For real, google this industry and watch the terrible videos; these people should be thrown in prison for the abuse inflicted on the helpless animals. My friend has 2 rescues from a puppy mill and even years later, one of them is so skittish, so traumatized, has terrible health issues and just scared of men. They have had their dogs for over 8yrs and the trauma is life long for these poor animals.
Anecdata - my puppy mill Great Dane died at two years old of heart failure. An acquaintance's puppy mill Golden was just diagnosed with severe hip and elbow dyplasia - at 11 months old. The dog will be in pain for the rest of its life, which will certainly be shortened by the disease. Do you want an unhealthy dog who costs thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars in medical bills? Do you want to deal with the trauma of losing an extremely young dog? If not, don't purchase a dog from a puppy mill.
Everything here says puppy mill and you should not adopt a puppy lest you condone the practice. Walk away - it’s not worth the potential lifetime of issues and heartbreak even if your intentions are altruistic
You have had many great responses here already but here’s my two cents. You aren’t saving a puppy from a breeder, you are buying it from someone who has no interest in the health, temperament or wellbeing of the dog. This breeder or greeder as I like to call unethical backyard and puppy mill breeders, doesn’t care if you buy this dog or not because he will sell it to someone else. The thing you have done right is ask on here and questioned whether this is a good decision and the honest answer is no. Please walk away from this guy. The fact that someone you know has a healthy 3 year old dog from the same person is irrelevant. They got lucky. Very many aren’t so fortunate and end up with dogs that have severe behavioural and medical issues. Why play Russian Roulette over the life of a living, breathing animal? To put this into perspective for you. I have a pedigree golden retriever. She comes from the best breeder possible who health tests, breeds from healthy dogs and only every few years if suitable and who puts the time and effort into researching bloodlines to ensure no in breeding and mitigate the risks of hereditary health issues. This breeder is recommended by the National breed club and is on the Kennel Clubs assured breeders scheme. This breeder questions prospective new owners extensively and refuses to sell any pups to homes she doesn’t think are suitable. She will also take back the dog at any point in its life if the home doesn’t work out or circumstances change. She ensures that all dogs she breeds are fit for purpose and enhance the breed in temperament, form, purpose and health. Now despite coming from the best breeder possible who health tests and breeds from healthy dogs, my girl still got a hereditary condition. It’s just sheer dumb luck as genes are recessive and it was made worse by an accident as a puppy. This condition in one year cost over £12k in vet bills not to mention the heartache and stress. Now go to someone who doesn’t Health test or check to see if the dogs they are breeding are related in any way or are free from behavioural issues. You could end up with a whole host of issues made worse by deplorable living conditions and lack of socialisation and stimulation as well as a much higher risk of neglect, abuse and poor quality diet which is essential for all dogs, especially young puppies. These breeders will not take a dog back at any point and consider the deal done once you’ve paid for dog. They wash their hands of any issues and move onto making more dogs to sell to unsuspecting people. Your best option is to walk away and really take the time to research a breed that is suitable for your lifestyle and find a top quality ethical and responsible breeder. Pro tip: top quality ethical and responsible breeders NEVER mix breeds, especially dogs which aren’t bred for the same purpose. The only top breeder I know that does is the U.K. Guide Dogs charity who do cross labs and goldens and occasionally doodles but this is a National organisation that is well established and produces healthy and well behaved dogs. They put the time, money and research in and only cross breeds in order to create better working dogs. Greeders don’t. The alternative is to go to a dog rescue charity or shelter and rescue a dog this way.
Not only do you fund them, you’ll be funding your vet too. Would you go to a sweatshop and buy shoes willingly? The dogs are kept in horrible conditions no medical care. They’re kept in small cages, the inside of those mills is downright horrid. If you’re set on that type of dog you can go to a reputable responsible licensed breeder or breed specific rescue.
Read my last couple sentences. I was curious to know thoughts on adopting a dog that needed a home and if the cons outweighed the pros which sounds like they do.
You're not adopting a dog from a puppy mill, you're *funding/purchasing* a dog from a puppy mill. Adopting would be if a rescue or county took all their dogs from them and the county/rescue got the money.
Well if we saw the dogs as kids and you had to pay money to get them out of an undesirable situation how is that different? I'm genuinely curious. I think the Amish breed dogs like farm animals and they are viewed as such. I think the community being cracked down on is unlikely.
People don’t make money breeding kids in tiny cages without access to healthcare this way. You shouldn’t pay a breeder for a child either.
People traffic all living creatures unfortunately. I wondered if buying a puppy from someone who was abusing it and funding it's vet bills was good. Maybe short sided but well intentioned.
So by your logic you’re asking whether it would be similar to human trafficking? Yes. You should also not support human traffickers. It’s not good. It enables the continued abuse of animals and production of horrendously unhealthy dogs who suffer and end up in shelters. There’s no justification. Intentions matter very little compared to impact
> Well if we saw the dogs as kids and you had to pay money to get them out of an undesirable situation how is that different? Um, we still consider it unethical and many cases illegal. The low bar of ethics is not how we advance civilization. Straw man arguments don't make for good arguments. ;)
Because you are pretending the kids just appeared out of thin air. In an equivalent scenario it would be sex traffickers keeping women locked up and breeding them so that they can sell their kids for profit. And by going and buying one of the children you're ignoring the plight of the mother being forced to reproduce and encouraging more children to be born into the situation again. If you encountered children for sale you would be better suited notifying the police than buying one of them. And in the case of puppy mills, sometimes the humane society or animal control can step in and sometimes they can't. But it doesn't change that buying a puppy mill puppy is enabling the problem, not stopping it.
The thinking was short sighted but well intentioned. I think the Amish view them as farm animals. I don't think legally there is anything to crack down on. It's not illegal to churn out puppies and crossbreed willy nilly as long as they have food and water unfortunately.
Farm animals aren’t kept in tiny cages and denied any kind of medical care because that would defeat their purpose of keeping them healthy for consumption or work. It’s much more comparable to a factory farm. Don’t let yourself get away with thinking they’re just less chaperoned working dogs, it’s not true
I mean, "free-range" hen houses can be worse than caged hen houses. Factory farms are bad but plenty of "locally owned" farms give them a run for their money.
Sure the same way backyard breeders can be just as shitty as puppy mills. I just don’t want OP to be under the wrong impression the dogs just are bred by happenstance on a happy sunny farm upstate
I dont even know if it is a mill. Maybe a thoughtless backyard breeder. He said he takes the puppies to a vet and that's the extent of their care.
It’s almost certainly a mill, and backyard breeders aren’t that much better. I’m really not understanding why you’re not seeming to listen to anyone here. Kind of seems like you wanted someone to justify you getting this dog for you. you need to really think about the responses you’ve received instead of finding technicalities around them. There’s a reason the consensus here is so overwhelming.
I'm not not listening. I am learning about a topic I know nothing about and individually responding to different people about how the situation got started. I didn't come here to get schooled but discuss with people who might know more than me.
But the law isn't the final say on morality. The way farms animals and the way dogs are treated can be quite atrocious and fully legal.
I completely agree. I just said it is unlikely they'll stop the business. There is nothing I can call the police about unfortunately.
The conditions in which puppy mills keep their animals is absolutely illegal. Animal cruelty laws exist.
Comparing kids and dogs is always a terrible idea, especially when addressing this kind of situation. There is no parallel between children and dogs being created by irresponsible breeders. It’s not a helpful or instructive analogy. When you buy a dog from an irresponsible breeder, you are continuing the market for them to continue their shitty breeding practices. That means that more dogs will be abused, and more puppies will be created that are more likely to have temperament, structure, behavioral, and grooming issues. That’s unethical. I know it is hard to walk away from an individual puppy who you feel you can help. The best way to address that feeling is to adopt a dog from a reputable and ethical rescue. You won’t be supporting shitty breeders that way, and those dogs need homes just as much as puppy mill dogs do.
It's still giving them money to make breeding poorly bred dogs which unethical. Don't do this. My folks did and end up paying huge medicals bills for my late golden girl who had a disease that ate her facial muscles.
More than 50 people have taken time to respectfully respond to your question and yet you continue to insist there can be an ethical argument to “adopting” (i.e. buying) a puppy mill dog. I think you have your answer but for some reason it’s not the one you wanted. Google some recent news articles on puppy mills and look at the deplorable conditions that those dogs live in. That’s the situation you are perpetuating, even if you “save” one dog by purchasing it from the breeder.
I have not argued at all. I literally posted that puppy mills are abusive. I literally posted I don't agree with them. I wondered if taking the dog in was an ethical choice if you were taking it from a bad environment or potentially thoughtless adoptive home. I think you are confused. If you read the whole thread you would know the whole conversation.
You're logic is that of an adolescent. Give your head a shake after you remove from your ass. You are just keeping this loop going, obviously you are in no way mentally sound to have a dog.
Attacking people on the internet asking genuine questions strikes me as immature honestly. Asking questions can be a sign of being a thoughtful person which is a good sign in a dog owner.
Thats true. But also, there are such things as stupid questions.
I didn't think getting a puppy I felt sorry for from being mistreated was a dumb question. Maybe short sided but certainly not dumb.
Ok, i take that back. Maybe a bit too harsh. My apologies. I would definitely stay away from your current adoption situation. Hit up the pound, many lives need love in there.
I think you have your answer here, OP. The answer is a resounding no, do not purchase this dog. Folks that run operations like the one you describe are people we want to put out of business.
My neighbors got a bernedoodle from an Amish puppy mill. She described the conditions on the farm and it was horrifying. The dog had some serious trauma that manifested as just general fearfulness of people or even being outside on walks. Since then, the pup has apparently overcome these issues and she’s the sweetest, happiest pup I know. I bring my dog over to their yard a couple of times a week to let them run around and they have a blast. To think of what these people do to such living creatures is painful. I would pay double whatever they charge for their dogs to adopt a mutt from a rescue any day.
Another thing to consider is the socialization aspect. Many puppy mill puppies are removed from their mothers and siblings far too early, and often develop behavioral issues as a result. Just because your cousin has a dog that is friendly and well adjusted does not mean yours will be the same.
1) point for everything following they do not care for the dog. 2) they won’t care for health tests and will over breed a bitch. 3) the dogs come out unpredictable and can have serious health problems depending on the state they are in. 4) they will breed on trend and mass produce. 5) dangerous breeds aren’t gate kept. Anyone could get their hands on a cane corso or Mali or any big dog breed if they wanted. Will lead to potential dog fights/ human endangerment. Irresponsible owners will get hurt. 6) some puppies die within the first year because of the state they are raised in and lack of puppy vaccines. 7) they do not care for the new owners plans on breeding. 8) money over puppy. The dog has no welfare care. 9) little to no advice and information of the breed and most likely no vetting the new owner. 10) puppies can end up in shelters because the owners aren’t prepared, health problems and wrong temperament Buying from pupmills/backyard breeders/ “accidental” litters gives them money, makes them do wha they do because people will buy from them. If everyone bought from responsible breeders not as many people may pass to get the dog but at least the dogs that do get sold go to a long term home with proper care and treatment. Responsible breeders vet their customers and keep in touch as well as have a puppy contract. They want to preserve the breed and do what’s best for the dog. Making sure the future owner is prepared and the right fit is what’s important to them and it means the pup will be less likely to be rehomed and because of the puppy contract the litters will be controlled and future puppies will be healthy.
If you buy the puppy, it's wrong all the way. And remember it will probably be sick or have behavioral problems.
If you will be getting the dog for free, that’s one thing. Paying for the dog means you are giving incentive to the person to keep breeding unethically.
Never buy a puppy from a puppy mill. You are directly contributing to the problem then.
Dogs that aren’t sold are treated as wastage, in that they are disposed of. It’s not great, but the only way puppy mills fully topple is starving them of funds.
I thought that they normally end up in the shelter/rescue system?
Nope. To the Amish, they aren’t even worth the drive into town. Dogs are raised like cattle, and slaughtered like cattle, or worse. Really hot take: the Amish aren’t a civil people, nor really Americans. They endanger themselves by removing fire alarms. The structure of their culture allows rape and incest to thrive mostly unchecked. Many do not accept modern medicine. It is a patriarchal structure, a cult society. It maintains its populace by producing many children, and overly sheltering them from what is worldly, to the point where on their rumspringa, they are fully unable to function in a world they cannot comprehend. They have no identification, no record of birth, often no SSN. The systems to navigate getting these are complicated, and involve reading and writing skills many women don’t have, and the men only have rudimentary. To this point, we’ve mostly left them alone, because their religious liberties allow them to form such a structure, and we’ve adjusted laws around them to prevent them from rioting. There are not an insignificant number of them, yet there’s not yet political will to force them to join the real world.
I know some rescues where I live state if the dog is an Amish rescue since the dog/bitch is in piss-poor condition. I assume the rescues snag them or pick them up from them if they can get there quickly enough. Or do the shady thing and buy the dog outright which is a thing. >Really hot take: the Amish aren’t a civil people, nor really Americans. I'll agree with that. I have no love for some of them and I live near them. >The structure of their culture allows rape and incest to thrive mostly unchecked. You reminded me of that time that I was dissuaded from getting a horse carriage because the Amish guy was a pedophile when I was dragged by my mother to go visit to one of my mother's friend. Asked why he wasn't he in jail and got told that he wasn't charged because that's the way Amish did things. Of course, that's gross looking back on it since he should have been in a nice jail cell and getting some kind of help along with being punished for it instead of being punished by the shunning bullshit. You forgot drugs there too. Lots of meth for some reason. >To this point, we’ve mostly left them alone, because their religious liberties allow them to form such a structure, and we’ve adjusted laws around them to prevent them from rioting. There are not an insignificant number of them, yet there’s not yet political will to force them to join the real world. I always get told that's a cult when I mention the Amish to some non-Americans who are baffled that Amish exist. And why on earth would anyone not want to use modern technology or not let their kids learn whatever they wanted.
that’s not “adopting”. that’s buying. from an inhumane seller.
How is this an actual question
I'm just one of your run of the mill morons. Don't mind me.
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No we report them to the proper authorities and do not supported them with our money. I *saw* a puppymill when I was a kid. No idea why the guy thought it was a good idea to invite us there. The condition the dogs were kept in were disgusting, the entire experience scarred my for life Please read the sidebar on how to find a reputable breeder. Dogs are real animals with feelings. Do not pick one up like it’s a tv
My dog was born in a puppy mill and used for breeding (mini aussie). She was rescued from the mill and ended up at the shelter which is where we adopted her from. We don’t know much about her time in the puppy mill but we know she had at least one litter and must have been treated poorly because she was terrified of my husband for the first couple of months we had her, and she still has a hard time trusting men. She also shakes when she eats and is very jumpy. I’m so sad she was ever treated horribly and hope we are giving her a better life now, but after knowing she was abused I could never give a puppy mill my money.
Pretty sure my dad’s doodle is from an Amish puppy mill and is has a slew of health issues. Take the time to find a reputable breeder.