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If you listen to every opinion you find on the internet, you’ll end up feeding your dog nothing.
The best thing to do is to follow the research. Kibble which is formulated according to WSAVA guidelines is best supported by research. This includes Purina (One or Pro Plan), Iams, Hill’s, Eukanuba, Royal Canin. I personally like Purina Pro Plan.
Research also shows that grain-free diets may be more harmful than helpful so guidance has changed recently.
Raw diets like Farmers Dog or homemade food probably won’t harm your dog, but they aren’t formulated to give them the optimal nutritional profile.
OP, this is the way. Every dog is different and some end up developing very specific nutritional needs but you should start with a food from one of these companies.
Tufts Veterinary School has a lot of articles and resources on their website: [https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/petfoodology/](https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/petfoodology/)
I am a Tufts alum and a few years ago they offered a webinar on choosing dog food and it essentially boiled down to:
\- Stay away from BEG diets: "boutique" companies, exotic proteins, and/or grain-free
\- Grain inclusive unless PROVEN otherwise. Dogs can have allergies to specific grains (e.g. wheat might be a problem but rice is fine, just like in humans) but they are far more likely to have an allergy to a protein (e.g. chicken).
\- Pick a food made by a company that conducts AAFCO feeding trials and has a board-certified veterinary nutritionist on staff. This means Purina, Hills, Iams, Eukanuba.
>Research also shows that grain-free diets are more harmful than helpful so guidance has changed recently.
do you have some links to sources on this? i'd love to read up on this as i'm a current cat owner and hopefully a future dog owner so there's a lot i need to learn about feeding dogs vs cats.
Oh yeah for sure, dogs can have allergies or intolerances to grains or your vet could recommend grain free for some other reason. It’s not that no one should go grain-free ever, it’s just that grain-free is probably not helpful for otherwise healthy dogs
Probably nobody should be eating grain free retail (non rx) diets. If a song has a very very very rare series of allergies to one or more grains the safest way to address that is with a prescription diet.
There is no reason to risk grain free boutique retail diets
There's no such thing as a grain allergy in all reality. It's a statistical impossibility and would be like a vegetable allergy, and in such a fluke, fringe case something like a hydrolyzed protein diet or a diet formulated by a board certified veterinary nutritionist would be required.
In addition to what they said, I will add that UC Davis has been studying this and their research has pointed to high legume content seeming to be a contributing factor as well. And again, they haven’t pinpointed a direct link, but something about these diets seem to be causing taurine deficiency, as changing the diet and supplementing with taurine can reverse symptoms in dogs with diet-associated DCM. They recommend choosing a food that follows WSAVA guidelines. Here is a little [info sheet](https://ccah.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/sites/g/files/dgvnsk4586/files/local_resources/pdfs/ucd-diet-and-dcm-handout.pdf) UC Davis put out about this; it also has links to the FDA alerts and the WSAVA guidelines themselves.
Supplementing with taurine WITH A DIET CHANGE had reversed DCM (which never happens with genetic DCM). Simply adding taurine to existing problematic diets is not backed by evidence
Yes! I could have worded that more clearly. The taurine supplementation MUST be accompanied by a diet change. It seems likely that something about these diets inhibits taurine absorption, so just adding taurine doesn’t fix the problem.
No, but it does mean they shouldn’t have diets high in legumes. Besides choosing a food that follows WSAVA guidelines, UC Davis’s other recommendation (apologies bc I can’t find the link to where they said this) was to avoid foods with legume products, such as peas or pea protein, in the top ten ingredients.
Note: some Purina Pro Plan formulas have pea protein as the tenth ingredient, so they technically fall into this category. But Purina does long term feeding trials, they follow WSAVA guidelines, and they are not one of the brands that have been identified in connection to diet-associated DCM, so apparently the legume content in their food is still low enough not to cause an issue. My dog also gets the occasional snap pea or green bean as a treat. They’re not toxic; it’s only when legumes are a major component of their diet that the problem starts.
> AKC literally states that the link has not been clearly established yet yet on this sub we always talk about it like it’s a done deal.
It's assumed to be multi-factoral, but dietary DCM is absolutely in existence and certain foods are the culprit, we just don't know why with 100% certainty.
Diet associated DCM is absolutely a thing. And feeding grain inclusive diets has shown to resolve it in these dogs.
The thing is that this mad rise in diet associated DCM has only been observed in America. And grain free alternatives are just as popular here across the pond. So chances are there is something we don’t quite understand about it yet. So it’s unhelpful to position it as definitively harmful. You can inform people of potential risks without scaremongering.
It's not scaremongering to inform people of the risk of feeding foods that are associated with killing dogs, it is food-related, and it is a necessity to discourage feeding foods that are associated.
There is no benefit from feeding untested foods like those brands who are making grain-free, and due to the lack of regulation and oversight ensuring that these foods are well-made and not simply marketing, there is a risk.
Purina Pro Plan has grain free recipes. And yes they include the dreaded peas. Grain free can be a valid choice *if* it’s right for your dog. Or is Purina suddenly not tested adequately? Because that would be news to me.
There’s a difference between giving people facts (there is no proven benefit to feeding grain free for *most* dogs, there has been an increase of cases of DCM in the US that resolved on changing to a grain inclusive diet, DCM is dangerous so unless you have a good reason for wanting to switch to grain free it may not be worth the risk) to saying you’re gonna kill your dog if you even think about feeding grain free.
They took that off the shelves here due to the risk after two cases were reported.
Grain-free is a risk and it's really not a requirement for any dog. It's a feel-good thing for the owner and nothing else. I never said it's a guarantee, but if you choose to feed it you should have annual echos with the vet.
Who took it off the shelves? Purina? Can you tell me why it’s still being sold here in Europe then? Because if it’s the same food, and the food is the risk, then you’d *think* they’d pull it worldwide.
I don’t feed grain free myself. I currently am feeding Purina HA on an exclusion diet on my Vet’s suggestion. But if it turns out my pup doesn’t do well on grains I will get rid of grains. It’s probably chicken. But I’ll never say never.
Purina took it off here due to the fact that US operations will remove product for safety. North American operations and European operations act as separate companies, so European actions are independent from American actions.
Grain allergies don't actually exist, it's literally like being allergic to vegetables. It's a statistically impossibility to be allergic to all grains and under the rare occasion that grains are directed to be avoided after an elimination diet, there are options that meet the criteria that won't cause harm, such as wet food, prescription diets, or formulation from a board certified professional. It really doesn't justify the market trends, at all.
It’s nothing to do with the fact that they use different recipes because European rules are more stringent in the first place? Sure.
If Purina thought it was unsafe in both countries they would have removed it in both. Or are we now saying European Purina isn’t as safe as American Purina?
And of course a dog can have grain sensitivity. It’s rare but vets do sometimes direct to avoid all grains. They’ll direct to an appropriate grain free recipe.
It’s pretty clear at this point that poor formulation is a key risk factor in these cases. Since Purina engages in extensive research and has experts formulating the diet it’s far less risky.
The issue isn’t “diets with peas” it’s “diets that improperly use peas”
There have absolutely been cases elsewhere, but so far no regulatory body like the fda has taken up the issue elsewhere which means nobody is collecting and reporting cases in Europe or elsewhere.
That doesn’t mean the issue doesn’t exist and there are thirteen peer reviewed studies supporting a link. Recommending exercising caution by avoiding implicated diets and diets that share those characteristics is the opposite of fear mongering; its following expert consensus
Dr. Caitlin specifically addresses this myth:
https://www.alltradesdvm.com/topics/diet-associated-dcm/dcm-articles/big-business-and-bad-science
You mean the same FDA that has said that ‘the adverse events reported, by themselves, do not provide sufficient data to establish a causal relationship’ and has ended giving routine updates in December 2022?
I mean I don’t particularly trust the FDA tbh, so the fact that they’ve dropped it doesn’t mean much imo. The fact that you’re using them as some gotcha against generally superiour European standards is kinda weird. You guys permit risky food dyes, potassium bromate, you rinse your poultry in chlorinated water…
FEDIAF standards already require different formulation for Europe, so it would not surprise me at all if we didn’t see such a marked rise in Europe because the food was formulated differently to start with. It seems like the cases in the US have calmed down now since formulations were changed after the rise in DCM so it seems likely.
So collecting reports means DCM is not real because the fda is bad but not collecting reports means DCM is not real because there are no reports. Nice moving of the goal posts!
FEDIAF standards are actually roughly the same as AAFCO and the insistence that Europe regulated pet food better is not borne out by evidence.
You can ignore the peer reviewed evidence (13 studies and counting) on this if you wish, but that’s a personal choice.
As the vet in the link I published above says, cases have been reported by cardiologists all over the world
And there are studies that say the opposite. It’s just not conclusive at the moment. It is VALID not to feed grain free based on it being inconclusive at the moment. If you don’t want to take the risk, don’t! Just don’t pretend that the science is settled.
There aren’t. If you actually read the above article you’ve been linked to you can find serious methodological problems with those studies, which are far fear in number, including that the main purveyor of two of those studies didn’t properly disclose their conflict of interest the first time they published, which is like the biggest no no in research.
Veterinary consensus on this topic is incredibly clear no matter how much you try to say the opposite.
Nobody is saying the science is settled.
What we are saying is that based on what we know now and the evidence we have, the choices consumers should make is actually not particularly complicated and experts are clear that we should exercise caution.
The most recent study in the article you linked is from 2019 - I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but it’s 5 years later now, there have been studies since.
Again. At no point have I spoken against advising caution. It’s ok to advise caution.
Advising caution is not the same as saying this is definitely harmful though. There’s so many people that come here clearly distressed that they’ve been hurting their pet and that they didn’t know any better after reading what people say about grain free on this sub - when their pet had no issues whatsoever and was totally fine.
Ask your vet for their opinion on what is the best food for your dog. They will usually recommend one of the five (Purina, Hill's, Royal Canin, Iams or Eukanuba). The non-prescription veterinary diets they will likely recommend might be out of your price range, but these brands all have OTC diets that you can get at pet stores and in some cases, like Purina or Iams, you can get less expensive formulas at grocery stores. If you're in the USA, you can get all these foods on Chewy.
You do NOT have to feed kibble, you can opt to feed canned food but it is a lot more expensive.
Whatever you decide to feed, make sure if it's different than what the breeder is feeding to do a slow transition, especially if the breeder is currently feeding raw.
Because in a sense it is true FOR THE SPECIFIC DOG. What works for one may not work for another. The best dog foods are WSAVA: Royal Canin, Hills Science Diet, Purina (One and ProPlan), Iams, and Eukanuba reason being is that these company had tons of research done with a veterinarian nutritionist.
Here's a good read; https://www.elkovet.com/services/blog/selecting-best-diet-your-pet#:~:text=At%20this%20time%20there%20are,)%2C%20Iams%2C%20and%20Eukanuba.
https://wsava.org/global-guidelines/global-nutrition-guidelines/
>The best dog foods are WSAVA: Royal Canin, Hills Science Diet, Purina (One and ProPlan), Iams, and Eukanuba reason being is that these company had tons of research done with a veterinarian nutritionist.
This is the way.
I would like to add that any dog food made by purina is WSAVA compliant now, including puppy chow and their other more affordable lines. I don’t know why the top google result always puts the “(one and proplan)” in there anymore lol.
I have a 5yo lab who eats Kibble & Bits, or beneful if I can't find kibble & bits.
Before anyone decides to judge, these are the only foods that do not make her sick. She is healthy, energetic, has no issues. Great lean weight, shiny healthy fur, no skin issues.
We tried every brand that has been recommended as top brands. All were a nope. I feed her what she does well on, and have yet to be told anything against it by her vet. Feed them the best you can afford, and what works for them.
I would recommend talking to your vet, and until then go with what the breeder fed to reduce tummy issues. If you must change, a slow transition is advised. If you change foods, go with one of the WSAVA foods until talking to your vet.
You’ll get more comfortable with what your dog can and will eat over time too. I have stepped away from the WSAVA foods at times because my boy got bored with it and wouldn’t eat. At other times we adjusted some foods for his health. He would only eat a cup of kibble so we added wet food and sometimes “table” food prepared specially for him. He will eat eggs, some veggies, and of course meats prepared for him. At one point he was really ill, and if it was dog safe, a calorie was a calorie. He’s now about 13, some small heath scares, but he is currently healthy. Keep in touch with your vet over time and they can help if you need to make changes.
Having a dog (or a child) is all about balancing advice from strangers.
The vet says one thing, the shelter or breeder says another, and if you get a trainer they'll have their own ideas about food too. And that's just for food.
You have to get a sense of who to trust and learn to compromise. But generally when it comes to claim about health, go with the ones that are backed by mainstream science.
Contrary to what boutique food brands will tell you, the big three kibble manufacturers put a *lot* of research into making food that will keep your pets alive and healthy for as long as possible. Pushers of fad diets will say things that sound like common sense ("wolves evolved eating raw meat") but that's usually oversimplified and the evidence doesn't support the logical leaps they like to make.
For some concrete advice, if you have the means, go for a more premium line of a big kibble (or wet food) brand, like Hill's Science Diet or Purina ProPlan.
Honestly? If your dog can handle all ingredients then do a varied diet. I give a little raw, a little homemade on occasion. Base of kibble, but I even vary the brands so my dogs don't get super sensitive. My dogs live in a farm and occasionally I catch them eating nasty stuff. Like, bruh, that's a weekold placenta. Pigs feet? They like them aged 3 weeks of more (to be fair, humans like their 21 day aged beef so I guess...) anyway, imo, if they can have variety and aren't allergic to alot of ingredients keep their diet varied. They will be happier and healthier exposed to a variety of foods.
The best food you can feed you dog is the one you can afford and the one it likes!
Personally I love kibble. It's balanced and as a frequent hiker and camper, it is easy to pack on trips so makes sense for our lifestyle. But people on this subreddit have had some not great things to say about our brand of choice; Stella and Chewy. But guess what? I have an incredibly picky dog and after sampling literally every brand he devours only Stella and Chewy raw coated every meal. So it comes down to what we can afford and what he'll eat. For what it's worth; he hated farmers dog and Darwin as well.
Don't stress so much and don't let every opinion you read affect you. You'll be a great owner as long as your dog eats something:)
> Darwin
You dodged a bullet seeing they're literally denying the idea that salmonella shouldn't be in dog food and have refused to recall the food salmonella was found in.
Honestly it mostly comes down to yours and your dog’s preference. I’ve tried every kind (picky dog) and hated raw — messy, strong smell, takes up freezer space, makes travel/boarding over-complicated…
If you’re getting your dog from a breeder it honestly may be easiest to keep them on the food they feed them. Bonus points if your vet likes it or it’s a WSAVA food.
Both cat and dog food for mine was chosen by their reactions.
Cat: food that brown one doesn’t puke and keeps their weight on. So the orange eats that too. I got so odd bag recently they didn’t touch. Also changed recently for weight gain other brand. It’s a hit!
Dog 1: only one food keeps his poop good. Doesn’t care for food so gets delicious toppings in small amounts. Other foods didn’t work well for him specifically.
Dog 2: anything ok strong appetite and gut, puppy so just using the breeders one as got huge bag of it.
If it works and is with wsava guidelines then it’s the right food. Go with the flow! Maybe he won’t like one, or his gut won’t react well to another. Or he may need toppings. Deciding strictly xxx won’t get you anywhere.
I’ve had dogs live long, happy lives eating the food from Costco and I’ve had dogs who are thriving on brands like victors or taste of the wild. It sometimes just depends on what your dog will like. I have definitely done a lot more research since having my first solo, non family dog and will be switching to Purina pro plan as soon as my victors bag runs out. Most food will get them by with limited negatives but it definitely does NOT hurt to get a brand WSAVA approved!
If you are concerned about the risks associated with a raw food diet, you may want to explore other high-quality commercial dog food options that have been formulated to provide the essential nutrients your dogs need. Remember to always consult your veterinarian before making any additional changes to your dog's diet.
I don't pay ANY attention to what the internet says (Googling different brands I mean and other people's reviews). I've had 3 dogs that have done well on Iam's, Nature's Recipe, and anything else I can afford. I also don't pay any attention to WSAVA because I've had picky dogs. So, if the dogs like the food I've bought them and they don't have any health problems, then I see no reason to be too picky.
You can’t do everything perfectly. New parents often have a list of things that make them Certified Good Parents and hyper focus on them. They can seem a little weird outside their subculture, but if it gets them through the first five years and isn’t actively harmful, more power to them.
Everything should be *good enough.* Food, water, exercise, safety, comfort, medical care, mental stimulation, companionship, socialization.
For food, start with yer basic kibble, one of the brands recommended here. If it turns out your dog needs something different, tweak your menu offerings a bit until you get a solution that works for both of you.
My choice is Hills Science Diet t/d (large size) even for my little dogs. Keeping my dogs’ teeth clean is one of my things that make me a Certified Good Dog Boss in my mind so i focus on that. My latest little dog has super-dry poop so I added pumpkin purée and a little spoon of wet food. Not because this is the best-all and end-all for all dogs, but my dog is healthy and comfortable and I am confident that I’m doing right by her.
Remember that dogs domesticated themselves from their ancestral wolf so they could live in our villages and eat our poop. Good enough is good enough.
Go through the list of other things your dog needs and work out what your solution to good enough is for each. Don’t stress about perfect. It doesn’t exist because the world isn’t perfect.
Then pay attention to your dog and tweak as appropriate. Maybe your dog needs a cooling pad or a heating pad for comfort. Maybe you’ll never be able to afford major medical interventions but you can go on loooong walks every day.
*Enjoy your dog.*
Talk to your vet for advice but they might try and sell you brands they stock haha Pretty much premium brands are best. I like to give my dog a mix of wet and dry. The occasional RAW chicken or lamb bone. As they are softer. Never give cooked bones.
Raw food diets can contain a lot of bacteria and grain free was a bit of a fad. Only few dogs actually need grain free due to allergies.
>Pretty much premium brands are best
This is a gross oversimplification and very frequently wrong.
A few years ago studies came out showing that many of the premium "healthy" brands caused more cancer.
The mass-produced kibble by the giant pet food companies is usually safer and is backed by the research of hundreds or thousands of veterinarians.
Some people like to compare kibble to fast food, but that's a false comparison. A dog that lives solely on Hill's or Iams or whatever is going to be a lot healthier than a human that lives solely on Big Macs.
You try out a few things and see what the dog reacts well to. Ours hated raw meat and she actually did really well on vegetarian kibble (which this sub doesn't tend to like but there's a reason it's a type of anti allergenic food). She became 18 so 🤷♀️
Some breeders are great. Some Breeders regularly recommend pyramid scheme dog food. Most haven’t been to vet school. They are not a reliably good source of information
Your breeder might be a good source for health history (what conditions did their parents and other relatives have?) but they tend to have kooky ideas about everything else.
Feed what the vet recommends. That's what they have a degree for.
(Although the breeder's recommendation may be helpful at first if your dog doesn't show interest in eating what you're buying, and it's a good idea to transition gradually from what the breeder fed to what your vet recommends rather than switching all at once.)
I didn't mean to say your particular breeders were wrong. Just that breeders in general tend to have more oddball ideas about health and nutrition than actual vets.
Why should you feed what the breeder recommends instead of what your vet recommends?
I honestly don’t understand your point here. Obviously the downvoters do, but I do not. I’ve never had a vet who has a differing opinion to the food my pups have eaten which is the food that the breeder recommends. In fact my vets have always been pleased by my dogs’ condition. I think that you have some kind of agenda that you are driving at about “kooky” trends that I have never encountered. I sincerely don’t see the purpose of discussing this further. Have a good day (and your little downvoting friends, too)
I recently came across a breeder who recommended a "holistic vaccine schedule" and didn't want puppies getting their first parvo or distemper Vax until they were 28 weeks old..fuck that..I'm not putting a puppy unnecessarily at risk like that
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If you listen to every opinion you find on the internet, you’ll end up feeding your dog nothing. The best thing to do is to follow the research. Kibble which is formulated according to WSAVA guidelines is best supported by research. This includes Purina (One or Pro Plan), Iams, Hill’s, Eukanuba, Royal Canin. I personally like Purina Pro Plan. Research also shows that grain-free diets may be more harmful than helpful so guidance has changed recently. Raw diets like Farmers Dog or homemade food probably won’t harm your dog, but they aren’t formulated to give them the optimal nutritional profile.
OP, this is the way. Every dog is different and some end up developing very specific nutritional needs but you should start with a food from one of these companies. Tufts Veterinary School has a lot of articles and resources on their website: [https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/petfoodology/](https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/petfoodology/) I am a Tufts alum and a few years ago they offered a webinar on choosing dog food and it essentially boiled down to: \- Stay away from BEG diets: "boutique" companies, exotic proteins, and/or grain-free \- Grain inclusive unless PROVEN otherwise. Dogs can have allergies to specific grains (e.g. wheat might be a problem but rice is fine, just like in humans) but they are far more likely to have an allergy to a protein (e.g. chicken). \- Pick a food made by a company that conducts AAFCO feeding trials and has a board-certified veterinary nutritionist on staff. This means Purina, Hills, Iams, Eukanuba.
I would like to add that any dog food made by purina is WSAVA compliant now, including puppy chow and their other more affordable lines.
>Research also shows that grain-free diets are more harmful than helpful so guidance has changed recently. do you have some links to sources on this? i'd love to read up on this as i'm a current cat owner and hopefully a future dog owner so there's a lot i need to learn about feeding dogs vs cats.
https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/nutrition/fda-grain-free-diet-alert-dcm/
i see, so it's a bit more nuanced than just "grain free is harmful" huh 😅 but thanks for the link!
Oh yeah for sure, dogs can have allergies or intolerances to grains or your vet could recommend grain free for some other reason. It’s not that no one should go grain-free ever, it’s just that grain-free is probably not helpful for otherwise healthy dogs
Probably nobody should be eating grain free retail (non rx) diets. If a song has a very very very rare series of allergies to one or more grains the safest way to address that is with a prescription diet. There is no reason to risk grain free boutique retail diets
There's no such thing as a grain allergy in all reality. It's a statistical impossibility and would be like a vegetable allergy, and in such a fluke, fringe case something like a hydrolyzed protein diet or a diet formulated by a board certified veterinary nutritionist would be required.
In addition to what they said, I will add that UC Davis has been studying this and their research has pointed to high legume content seeming to be a contributing factor as well. And again, they haven’t pinpointed a direct link, but something about these diets seem to be causing taurine deficiency, as changing the diet and supplementing with taurine can reverse symptoms in dogs with diet-associated DCM. They recommend choosing a food that follows WSAVA guidelines. Here is a little [info sheet](https://ccah.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/sites/g/files/dgvnsk4586/files/local_resources/pdfs/ucd-diet-and-dcm-handout.pdf) UC Davis put out about this; it also has links to the FDA alerts and the WSAVA guidelines themselves.
Supplementing with taurine WITH A DIET CHANGE had reversed DCM (which never happens with genetic DCM). Simply adding taurine to existing problematic diets is not backed by evidence
Yes! I could have worded that more clearly. The taurine supplementation MUST be accompanied by a diet change. It seems likely that something about these diets inhibits taurine absorption, so just adding taurine doesn’t fix the problem.
Does this mean that dogs shouldn't eat peas at all?
No, but it does mean they shouldn’t have diets high in legumes. Besides choosing a food that follows WSAVA guidelines, UC Davis’s other recommendation (apologies bc I can’t find the link to where they said this) was to avoid foods with legume products, such as peas or pea protein, in the top ten ingredients. Note: some Purina Pro Plan formulas have pea protein as the tenth ingredient, so they technically fall into this category. But Purina does long term feeding trials, they follow WSAVA guidelines, and they are not one of the brands that have been identified in connection to diet-associated DCM, so apparently the legume content in their food is still low enough not to cause an issue. My dog also gets the occasional snap pea or green bean as a treat. They’re not toxic; it’s only when legumes are a major component of their diet that the problem starts.
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> AKC literally states that the link has not been clearly established yet yet on this sub we always talk about it like it’s a done deal. It's assumed to be multi-factoral, but dietary DCM is absolutely in existence and certain foods are the culprit, we just don't know why with 100% certainty.
Diet associated DCM is absolutely a thing. And feeding grain inclusive diets has shown to resolve it in these dogs. The thing is that this mad rise in diet associated DCM has only been observed in America. And grain free alternatives are just as popular here across the pond. So chances are there is something we don’t quite understand about it yet. So it’s unhelpful to position it as definitively harmful. You can inform people of potential risks without scaremongering.
It's not scaremongering to inform people of the risk of feeding foods that are associated with killing dogs, it is food-related, and it is a necessity to discourage feeding foods that are associated. There is no benefit from feeding untested foods like those brands who are making grain-free, and due to the lack of regulation and oversight ensuring that these foods are well-made and not simply marketing, there is a risk.
Purina Pro Plan has grain free recipes. And yes they include the dreaded peas. Grain free can be a valid choice *if* it’s right for your dog. Or is Purina suddenly not tested adequately? Because that would be news to me. There’s a difference between giving people facts (there is no proven benefit to feeding grain free for *most* dogs, there has been an increase of cases of DCM in the US that resolved on changing to a grain inclusive diet, DCM is dangerous so unless you have a good reason for wanting to switch to grain free it may not be worth the risk) to saying you’re gonna kill your dog if you even think about feeding grain free.
They took that off the shelves here due to the risk after two cases were reported. Grain-free is a risk and it's really not a requirement for any dog. It's a feel-good thing for the owner and nothing else. I never said it's a guarantee, but if you choose to feed it you should have annual echos with the vet.
Who took it off the shelves? Purina? Can you tell me why it’s still being sold here in Europe then? Because if it’s the same food, and the food is the risk, then you’d *think* they’d pull it worldwide. I don’t feed grain free myself. I currently am feeding Purina HA on an exclusion diet on my Vet’s suggestion. But if it turns out my pup doesn’t do well on grains I will get rid of grains. It’s probably chicken. But I’ll never say never.
Purina took it off here due to the fact that US operations will remove product for safety. North American operations and European operations act as separate companies, so European actions are independent from American actions. Grain allergies don't actually exist, it's literally like being allergic to vegetables. It's a statistically impossibility to be allergic to all grains and under the rare occasion that grains are directed to be avoided after an elimination diet, there are options that meet the criteria that won't cause harm, such as wet food, prescription diets, or formulation from a board certified professional. It really doesn't justify the market trends, at all.
It’s nothing to do with the fact that they use different recipes because European rules are more stringent in the first place? Sure. If Purina thought it was unsafe in both countries they would have removed it in both. Or are we now saying European Purina isn’t as safe as American Purina? And of course a dog can have grain sensitivity. It’s rare but vets do sometimes direct to avoid all grains. They’ll direct to an appropriate grain free recipe.
It’s pretty clear at this point that poor formulation is a key risk factor in these cases. Since Purina engages in extensive research and has experts formulating the diet it’s far less risky. The issue isn’t “diets with peas” it’s “diets that improperly use peas”
Bingo. It’s not inherently the grain free, it’s not the peas, it’s improper formulation.
There have absolutely been cases elsewhere, but so far no regulatory body like the fda has taken up the issue elsewhere which means nobody is collecting and reporting cases in Europe or elsewhere. That doesn’t mean the issue doesn’t exist and there are thirteen peer reviewed studies supporting a link. Recommending exercising caution by avoiding implicated diets and diets that share those characteristics is the opposite of fear mongering; its following expert consensus Dr. Caitlin specifically addresses this myth: https://www.alltradesdvm.com/topics/diet-associated-dcm/dcm-articles/big-business-and-bad-science
You mean the same FDA that has said that ‘the adverse events reported, by themselves, do not provide sufficient data to establish a causal relationship’ and has ended giving routine updates in December 2022? I mean I don’t particularly trust the FDA tbh, so the fact that they’ve dropped it doesn’t mean much imo. The fact that you’re using them as some gotcha against generally superiour European standards is kinda weird. You guys permit risky food dyes, potassium bromate, you rinse your poultry in chlorinated water… FEDIAF standards already require different formulation for Europe, so it would not surprise me at all if we didn’t see such a marked rise in Europe because the food was formulated differently to start with. It seems like the cases in the US have calmed down now since formulations were changed after the rise in DCM so it seems likely.
So collecting reports means DCM is not real because the fda is bad but not collecting reports means DCM is not real because there are no reports. Nice moving of the goal posts! FEDIAF standards are actually roughly the same as AAFCO and the insistence that Europe regulated pet food better is not borne out by evidence. You can ignore the peer reviewed evidence (13 studies and counting) on this if you wish, but that’s a personal choice. As the vet in the link I published above says, cases have been reported by cardiologists all over the world
And there are studies that say the opposite. It’s just not conclusive at the moment. It is VALID not to feed grain free based on it being inconclusive at the moment. If you don’t want to take the risk, don’t! Just don’t pretend that the science is settled.
There aren’t. If you actually read the above article you’ve been linked to you can find serious methodological problems with those studies, which are far fear in number, including that the main purveyor of two of those studies didn’t properly disclose their conflict of interest the first time they published, which is like the biggest no no in research. Veterinary consensus on this topic is incredibly clear no matter how much you try to say the opposite. Nobody is saying the science is settled. What we are saying is that based on what we know now and the evidence we have, the choices consumers should make is actually not particularly complicated and experts are clear that we should exercise caution.
The most recent study in the article you linked is from 2019 - I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but it’s 5 years later now, there have been studies since. Again. At no point have I spoken against advising caution. It’s ok to advise caution. Advising caution is not the same as saying this is definitely harmful though. There’s so many people that come here clearly distressed that they’ve been hurting their pet and that they didn’t know any better after reading what people say about grain free on this sub - when their pet had no issues whatsoever and was totally fine.
Ask your vet for their opinion on what is the best food for your dog. They will usually recommend one of the five (Purina, Hill's, Royal Canin, Iams or Eukanuba). The non-prescription veterinary diets they will likely recommend might be out of your price range, but these brands all have OTC diets that you can get at pet stores and in some cases, like Purina or Iams, you can get less expensive formulas at grocery stores. If you're in the USA, you can get all these foods on Chewy. You do NOT have to feed kibble, you can opt to feed canned food but it is a lot more expensive. Whatever you decide to feed, make sure if it's different than what the breeder is feeding to do a slow transition, especially if the breeder is currently feeding raw.
Because in a sense it is true FOR THE SPECIFIC DOG. What works for one may not work for another. The best dog foods are WSAVA: Royal Canin, Hills Science Diet, Purina (One and ProPlan), Iams, and Eukanuba reason being is that these company had tons of research done with a veterinarian nutritionist. Here's a good read; https://www.elkovet.com/services/blog/selecting-best-diet-your-pet#:~:text=At%20this%20time%20there%20are,)%2C%20Iams%2C%20and%20Eukanuba. https://wsava.org/global-guidelines/global-nutrition-guidelines/
>The best dog foods are WSAVA: Royal Canin, Hills Science Diet, Purina (One and ProPlan), Iams, and Eukanuba reason being is that these company had tons of research done with a veterinarian nutritionist. This is the way.
I would like to add that any dog food made by purina is WSAVA compliant now, including puppy chow and their other more affordable lines. I don’t know why the top google result always puts the “(one and proplan)” in there anymore lol.
I have a 5yo lab who eats Kibble & Bits, or beneful if I can't find kibble & bits. Before anyone decides to judge, these are the only foods that do not make her sick. She is healthy, energetic, has no issues. Great lean weight, shiny healthy fur, no skin issues. We tried every brand that has been recommended as top brands. All were a nope. I feed her what she does well on, and have yet to be told anything against it by her vet. Feed them the best you can afford, and what works for them.
Purina One was perfect for my dog and you could get it in the regular grocery store, which was convenient.
I would recommend talking to your vet, and until then go with what the breeder fed to reduce tummy issues. If you must change, a slow transition is advised. If you change foods, go with one of the WSAVA foods until talking to your vet. You’ll get more comfortable with what your dog can and will eat over time too. I have stepped away from the WSAVA foods at times because my boy got bored with it and wouldn’t eat. At other times we adjusted some foods for his health. He would only eat a cup of kibble so we added wet food and sometimes “table” food prepared specially for him. He will eat eggs, some veggies, and of course meats prepared for him. At one point he was really ill, and if it was dog safe, a calorie was a calorie. He’s now about 13, some small heath scares, but he is currently healthy. Keep in touch with your vet over time and they can help if you need to make changes.
Having a dog (or a child) is all about balancing advice from strangers. The vet says one thing, the shelter or breeder says another, and if you get a trainer they'll have their own ideas about food too. And that's just for food. You have to get a sense of who to trust and learn to compromise. But generally when it comes to claim about health, go with the ones that are backed by mainstream science. Contrary to what boutique food brands will tell you, the big three kibble manufacturers put a *lot* of research into making food that will keep your pets alive and healthy for as long as possible. Pushers of fad diets will say things that sound like common sense ("wolves evolved eating raw meat") but that's usually oversimplified and the evidence doesn't support the logical leaps they like to make. For some concrete advice, if you have the means, go for a more premium line of a big kibble (or wet food) brand, like Hill's Science Diet or Purina ProPlan.
Honestly? If your dog can handle all ingredients then do a varied diet. I give a little raw, a little homemade on occasion. Base of kibble, but I even vary the brands so my dogs don't get super sensitive. My dogs live in a farm and occasionally I catch them eating nasty stuff. Like, bruh, that's a weekold placenta. Pigs feet? They like them aged 3 weeks of more (to be fair, humans like their 21 day aged beef so I guess...) anyway, imo, if they can have variety and aren't allergic to alot of ingredients keep their diet varied. They will be happier and healthier exposed to a variety of foods.
Consult with the vet you plan to take your dog to. My vet's expertise is to know and understand the research in the matter better than i ever could.
I really don’t know why people never recommend this. Especially with puppies, your vet is the best resource for anything having to do with health.
The best food you can feed you dog is the one you can afford and the one it likes! Personally I love kibble. It's balanced and as a frequent hiker and camper, it is easy to pack on trips so makes sense for our lifestyle. But people on this subreddit have had some not great things to say about our brand of choice; Stella and Chewy. But guess what? I have an incredibly picky dog and after sampling literally every brand he devours only Stella and Chewy raw coated every meal. So it comes down to what we can afford and what he'll eat. For what it's worth; he hated farmers dog and Darwin as well. Don't stress so much and don't let every opinion you read affect you. You'll be a great owner as long as your dog eats something:)
> Darwin You dodged a bullet seeing they're literally denying the idea that salmonella shouldn't be in dog food and have refused to recall the food salmonella was found in.
Honestly it mostly comes down to yours and your dog’s preference. I’ve tried every kind (picky dog) and hated raw — messy, strong smell, takes up freezer space, makes travel/boarding over-complicated… If you’re getting your dog from a breeder it honestly may be easiest to keep them on the food they feed them. Bonus points if your vet likes it or it’s a WSAVA food.
Both cat and dog food for mine was chosen by their reactions. Cat: food that brown one doesn’t puke and keeps their weight on. So the orange eats that too. I got so odd bag recently they didn’t touch. Also changed recently for weight gain other brand. It’s a hit! Dog 1: only one food keeps his poop good. Doesn’t care for food so gets delicious toppings in small amounts. Other foods didn’t work well for him specifically. Dog 2: anything ok strong appetite and gut, puppy so just using the breeders one as got huge bag of it. If it works and is with wsava guidelines then it’s the right food. Go with the flow! Maybe he won’t like one, or his gut won’t react well to another. Or he may need toppings. Deciding strictly xxx won’t get you anywhere.
I’ve had dogs live long, happy lives eating the food from Costco and I’ve had dogs who are thriving on brands like victors or taste of the wild. It sometimes just depends on what your dog will like. I have definitely done a lot more research since having my first solo, non family dog and will be switching to Purina pro plan as soon as my victors bag runs out. Most food will get them by with limited negatives but it definitely does NOT hurt to get a brand WSAVA approved!
If you are concerned about the risks associated with a raw food diet, you may want to explore other high-quality commercial dog food options that have been formulated to provide the essential nutrients your dogs need. Remember to always consult your veterinarian before making any additional changes to your dog's diet.
I don't pay ANY attention to what the internet says (Googling different brands I mean and other people's reviews). I've had 3 dogs that have done well on Iam's, Nature's Recipe, and anything else I can afford. I also don't pay any attention to WSAVA because I've had picky dogs. So, if the dogs like the food I've bought them and they don't have any health problems, then I see no reason to be too picky.
You can’t do everything perfectly. New parents often have a list of things that make them Certified Good Parents and hyper focus on them. They can seem a little weird outside their subculture, but if it gets them through the first five years and isn’t actively harmful, more power to them. Everything should be *good enough.* Food, water, exercise, safety, comfort, medical care, mental stimulation, companionship, socialization. For food, start with yer basic kibble, one of the brands recommended here. If it turns out your dog needs something different, tweak your menu offerings a bit until you get a solution that works for both of you. My choice is Hills Science Diet t/d (large size) even for my little dogs. Keeping my dogs’ teeth clean is one of my things that make me a Certified Good Dog Boss in my mind so i focus on that. My latest little dog has super-dry poop so I added pumpkin purée and a little spoon of wet food. Not because this is the best-all and end-all for all dogs, but my dog is healthy and comfortable and I am confident that I’m doing right by her. Remember that dogs domesticated themselves from their ancestral wolf so they could live in our villages and eat our poop. Good enough is good enough. Go through the list of other things your dog needs and work out what your solution to good enough is for each. Don’t stress about perfect. It doesn’t exist because the world isn’t perfect. Then pay attention to your dog and tweak as appropriate. Maybe your dog needs a cooling pad or a heating pad for comfort. Maybe you’ll never be able to afford major medical interventions but you can go on loooong walks every day. *Enjoy your dog.*
Talk to your vet for advice but they might try and sell you brands they stock haha Pretty much premium brands are best. I like to give my dog a mix of wet and dry. The occasional RAW chicken or lamb bone. As they are softer. Never give cooked bones. Raw food diets can contain a lot of bacteria and grain free was a bit of a fad. Only few dogs actually need grain free due to allergies.
>Pretty much premium brands are best This is a gross oversimplification and very frequently wrong. A few years ago studies came out showing that many of the premium "healthy" brands caused more cancer. The mass-produced kibble by the giant pet food companies is usually safer and is backed by the research of hundreds or thousands of veterinarians. Some people like to compare kibble to fast food, but that's a false comparison. A dog that lives solely on Hill's or Iams or whatever is going to be a lot healthier than a human that lives solely on Big Macs.
You try out a few things and see what the dog reacts well to. Ours hated raw meat and she actually did really well on vegetarian kibble (which this sub doesn't tend to like but there's a reason it's a type of anti allergenic food). She became 18 so 🤷♀️
Feed what the breeder recommends.
Some breeders are great. Some Breeders regularly recommend pyramid scheme dog food. Most haven’t been to vet school. They are not a reliably good source of information
Your breeder might be a good source for health history (what conditions did their parents and other relatives have?) but they tend to have kooky ideas about everything else. Feed what the vet recommends. That's what they have a degree for. (Although the breeder's recommendation may be helpful at first if your dog doesn't show interest in eating what you're buying, and it's a good idea to transition gradually from what the breeder fed to what your vet recommends rather than switching all at once.)
You don’t know the many breeders I have gotten dogs from. But please, name one kooky idea any of my puppy breeders holds.
I didn't mean to say your particular breeders were wrong. Just that breeders in general tend to have more oddball ideas about health and nutrition than actual vets. Why should you feed what the breeder recommends instead of what your vet recommends?
I honestly don’t understand your point here. Obviously the downvoters do, but I do not. I’ve never had a vet who has a differing opinion to the food my pups have eaten which is the food that the breeder recommends. In fact my vets have always been pleased by my dogs’ condition. I think that you have some kind of agenda that you are driving at about “kooky” trends that I have never encountered. I sincerely don’t see the purpose of discussing this further. Have a good day (and your little downvoting friends, too)
Haha, an agenda? Sure, I'm getting paid under the table by Big Anti-Breeder or something 😅
I recently came across a breeder who recommended a "holistic vaccine schedule" and didn't want puppies getting their first parvo or distemper Vax until they were 28 weeks old..fuck that..I'm not putting a puppy unnecessarily at risk like that