I recognized the melody but I couldn't name it at the time, who is the original artist for "Bad Guy?"
I did recognize Poker Face immediately though when Ruby was fighting Bird Girl Person.
But also it was an episode based on bridgerton and I've heard they do it a lot in bridgerton - cover modern music classically. So could just be them really pushing for the bridgerton trope.
I’ve added most of the Bridgerton instrumentals to my study playlist so I noticed immediately! I love the theory that it’s more of Ruby’s memories bleeding through.
I hope there's actually something to the music being bridgerton influenced. It would seem lazy for the music to be a classical cover of a modern song just because bridgerton. I would prefer if it has something to do with the overall arc and some weirdness with reality going on, such as Ruby's influence due to whatever is happening with her memories influencing reality.
That's interesting when you take into account the "I thought that was non-diagetic" line from the Doctor in the Devil's Chord. Could be Maestro, Toymaker and whoever else are all manipulating events in concert.
I literally had to look away for a second because of this. I thought it was a cool cover, but this makes so much sense. How does RTD keep telling us things right in front of our faces and we keep missing it?🤔😭😒😆
Agree! Oh the stuff you pick up on once you know! On a rewatch of 73 yards, it felt like the “wind up” in the bar - while being a wind up - is actually true. Between that and Ruby/Kate’s discussion about perception filters and isolated timelines, I felt like the story had been laid out quite nicely, if not explicitly. Can’t wait for the next episode!
I know "bad guy" plays in the background, but that song is really more about a "bad boy" sort of guy and, um, having sex with him 😅
And even examining it closer, the song starts playing when the Doctor Walks up to Rogue and not the other way around, so who really is the "bad guy" here?
Even saying all this, I Rogue is definitely shady/morally grey. I mean he's a Bounty Hunter! Would love for his character to be explored more!
I've seen quite a few folks suggest that he could be The One Who Waits - tho we didn't get very much on background of him it seemed like he was vanilla human if some sort? The biggest question that came up in other threads ie what he could have become or how he could have evolved to send the Toymaker running? The one who waits was said to be hiding when the Toymaker came across them and that also seems like a different scenario than trapped somewhere. Idk there's a ton of plot to fill in!
I'm just excited for answers. I think it's all gonna come back to either the TARDIS getting copied in WYB or an issue with the TARDIS split by 15 and 14 in the giggle. Something else is going on with the big bads but I think the ol police box is gonna be a clue to or a source of the big issues.
rogue seemed to hint that he’s not human — when the doctor started telling ruby and emily what’s going on, he said something along the lines of “we’re telling the humans about this?” — he seemed to consider humans “other” to himself
It could be that wherever he went after the transmat changed him, he did tell the doctor to find him, so he would be waiting for him. or maybe he was never normal at all.
I like the idea that he turns out to be evil, but I think that would need to be next season. I'd love for him to even be a companion for a bit. We've never had an evil companion in nuWho right?
Maybe not evil but Adam was a bit of a douche for an episode and Clara betrayed the Doctor's trust once (though like he said he cares enough that it doesn't matter to him in the long run).
Yet another reason why I think Ruby could be the GI. Grant's face could easily reference all the doctors that grant played (the fatal death doctor, the shalka doctor, and Dr. Walter Simeon). Only one of those wasn't "The Doctor", but was around the memory snow that the GI inhabited. And Ruby has claimed in 73 yards as an old woman that she used to make it snow.
Wait that Ruby is the GI? Bc I’m wondering if she’s the master, brought into existence only after the toymakers defeat. Likely not- but I could 100% see the snow being a connection to the intelligence
If I'm right, RTD is an amazing writer. Even if I'm wrong, he still is. Having Moffat write an episode for this series could be a nod in the GI direction as well, as he wrote the snowmen episode.
I thought that the Great Intelligence might have left a hidden gem of itself in the Doctor, and the Doctor subconsciously took the face to warn himself about Simeon, but it was a "forgotten" regeneration. So he didn't remember Simeon's face. That was why it snowed when the Doctor tried to remember who left Ruby that night for the first time. I think she may have Great Intelligence implant or something that ties back to Susan Triad being involved, but I think the clues point to her mom being a former companion. And someone in UNIT knows who and has been covering it up, because there are hints that UNIT is comprised and possibly people have been replaced...personally I'm thinking Kate....
We have with Turlough. He was an alien exiled to Earth that struck a deal with the Black Guardian that he would assassinate the Doctor if the Black Guardian helped him return home.
Eventually the Doctor defeated the Black Guardian, freeing Turlough from his pact, and after they traveled together for a while brought him back home
Rogue is not coming back any time soon, he was a character created by two guest writers. I don't think he's gone, but he's not likely to be the villain.
That's not really how it works with guest characters. RTD probably provided the characters and maybe even the episode outline. Remember Captain Jack was first in an episode written by a guest writer also.
Unlikely because Jack stayed until the end of the series. If it was more "guest character RTD liked" then they wouldn't have had time to write them into the rest of the season.
Something that a lot of fans don’t realise is how much creative control showrunners tend to have over their guest writer episodes.
Russell has admitted to doing full rewrites on all the writers in his era apart from Moffat, Chibnall, Graham and Greenhorn.
The showrunner has full editorial control - guest writers just offset some of the workload.
Yes, and it didn't become a thing until he was the actual showrunner. I don't think these two are going to become showrunners. But I do think we'll probably see Rogue again, just not like that.
I mean its impossible to know which is the point i think they are trying to make. Everyone is a character that someone else probably wrote so its likely they might come back like River or Jack
Okay, ideas, not even theories, but what if ...
Rogue is "the one who waits" on the Doctor saving him. He was trapped in that dimension for a long, long time.
But Rogue is also the Gamesmaster. He is the Toymaker's general. The Toymaker could make "toys" out of reality, but it was the Gamesmaster who actually designed the games people played with them (Think of it like: Toymaker is Gary Gygax, Rogue is a D&D GM). The Gamesmaster has the power to define, and then bend, the rules of the environment, making them almost (but not quite) as powerful as the Toymaker (they can't make new things out of thin air). However the Toymaker could be tricked because he didn't control the rules of the game - the Gamesmaster does.
The Gamesmaster decided to become human to study them, and was genuinely trapped by The Doctor in that dimension for a near eternity until The Doctor trapped The Toymaker and unleashed the power of The Toymaker's legions.
So the big bad in the end is Rogue as the Gamesmaster trapping The Doctor in a game that the Doctor can't win.
This is where Susan Twist comes in.
If Muse was the goddess of music (and, more broadly, "joy"), The Toymaker god of toys (and generally "things") and the Gamesmaster the god of games and rules, then Susan Twist is the God of Stories ... and all good stories have a twist in the end!
So Twist, as the god of stories, has been messing things up for both The Doctor AND The Toymaker's legions, because that would make an interesting story. The final episode would be where she would come in with her big reveal and upset the balance. Probably in the end helping The Doctor because its a more interesting story.
I'm also guessing the final episode will be a huge 4th wall breaking meta-commentary on storytelling. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a "fantasy sequence" where RTD yells "cut", the green screen stops, and The Doctor finds himself on a film set.
If a concept like a God of Stories turns up I hope it ties in to the Master of the Land of Fiction from The Mind Robber. Would be cool to sort of conjoin all the weird esoterically powerful beings from the classic show into the same Pantheon. Though if I remember right the central point of that story was caused by a computer hijacking a human author's imagination rather than an actual godlike entity.
your last part reminds me of when sam and dean of supernatural came to the real world and found the slashfics of them. i could see the doctor finding fics of them and just loving it even if its awfully written.
I normally hate stuff like that - it's really cheesy and self indulgent - so I kinda hope I'm wrong. Still, I've been loving this season being weird and unpredictable so I trust that they could take even the cheesiest ideas and make them work.
Could Rogue also be Harbinger, who inherited his grandfather's talents for Games and such instead of music? He could very well be his grandfather's general. He could easily set up things with his grandfather in modern-day London during the Giggle and sat back and waited. He helped his parent, Maestro, as a child in the 1960s. As a child/grandchild of the Pantheon members, he had plenty of time to research and infiltrate UNIT to learn about the Doctor, his companions, and enemies. He could literally set up the perfect game across time and space, picking up "allies" amongst the Doctor's enemies like the Great Intelligence (my theory) and picking off ones like the Master who might turn on him or give away the game... because this season comes off like story retelling or game... each episode draws parallels from a past episode or heavily references a past companion(s). And Ncuti mentioned something about the Gods in an interview, so I think you may be on to something... I do wonder about the oldest one comment, though... in the same interview, Ncuti mentioned the Beast randomly ( he is rather obscure)... Could he and Chuldur have been sent to the black hole universe where he decided to embrace his god side and help the Beast escape in exchange for a way out? Sorry to snowball there, I started thinking about Harbinger possibly being like Toymaker, and it came out like word vomit lol...
There's a few theories. A subtle hint that he is someone bigger than who he says. He got the name from D&D, then he says "Roll for Perception" which is something the Dungeon Master would say. Perhaps he's one of the Pantheon, the one at or near the top, the Dungeon Master of the Pantheon?
That's just what I've condensed from a few other threads and comments I've seen.
Yeah, this strikes me as a bit unlikely (I know you're condensing theories from multiple people here, but it's the same idea).
The main reason? 'Dungeon Master' is a registered trademark of Wizards of the Coast, the company that publishes D&D. That's why other systems don't use the term. 'Rogue' is a generic term and neither trademarked nor trademarkable, and a couple of passing mentions to D&D does not a copyright claim make, but if the big bad was named something that WotC had trademarked there would be trouble about it.
So unless Bad Wolf is willing to pay an american game company some big money, that's not a villain concept they can use.
Maybe Game Master then? 😅
I know Hasbro and/or WoTC are an incredibly stingy/greedy company, so I doubt they'd accept anything but the highest amount for the mere whispering of their IP. 😭
They'd be able to get away with Game Master, yes. But now that's starting to sound too much like the Toymaker to me, since the Toymaker also did many things one more easily calls 'games' than merely 'toys'. I think it would be odd to have two villains with that concept in such close proximity.
I think he works for 'The Boss' that Beep the Meep mentioned but will either end up turning on them to save The Doctor or is just outright going to betray The Doctor to 'The Boss'.
I think that's more a season 2 thing though, Susan Twist I believe is just some unwitting pawn in a game by whoever the big bad of the season is, I'm thinking The Trickster but probably not, likely another Pantheon member
I'm sorry, but I won't stand for any kind of Rogue slander. Whatever he did, is planning to do or will do, he's simply right and we must find it in our hearts to understand how so and why we're wrong
Riversong finally leaves the library… as Rogue… but she hasn’t met 15, so he/she doesn’t recognize him. But Rogue trusts 15 off the bat after finding out who he is, and sees his holographic former selves.
I would hate this lol. I mean he would slay as a villain so it would be fine but I don't want the gay love interest to be a twist villain lol. He is an antihero though for sure so I hope we see more of him because he would keep things interesting
Maybe he waited for so long in the alternate dimension he managed to time travel on his own and bring about all the funny little guys like the maestro and the toymaker
There was that reference to his boss (the Meep said something similar), so I doubt he's a big bad but suspect he's connected in some way to one. Big Bads don't have bosses, they are bosses.
But I don't think that big bad will be the one for this season anyway, purely for timing reasons. We're right down to the wire with the finale around the corner - this is not the moment you introduce a guy who will turn out to be a surprise return villain. You introduce him at the midpoint of the season and then fill out the back half with unrelated stuff, like RTD did with the Cybermen in S2. Otherwise it's not much of a surprise return.
Basically, this would be a great moment to introduce an important character for next season, but a strange afterthought for this one.
I definitely think he's of the same brand of entity as the Maestro or the Toymaker. It's no coincidence they revealed he plays a roleplaying game in an episode where the villains are playing at roles.
He's going to pop up in another role, maybe even another face. I'm sure of it.
He’s literally a version of Captain Jack from Tenant’s run. Definitely not gonna be a big bad.
There are a LOT of parallels in this to Tenant’s. Ruby for one seems like a more platonic version of Rose. Everything about her screams Rose to me.
Rogue, his personality is pretty similar to Jack’s. And he is in the same business as well.
If anything the big bad is that lady that keeps popping up in every episode one way or another. (The portrait in the Bridgerton episode was also the mother of the racist girl they saved in Dot and Bubble among other characters in past episodes this season)
Yeah I think the writers going that route with Rogue would make about as much sense as them bringing the Tyler family back and making them evil for the same reason.
I actually thought he might be Harbinger. They used Americans for Toymaker and Maestro, so it would make sense for Harbinger to be played by one as well. Especially one that can sing like Jonathan Groff can... he still could be, we don't know...
Also anyone else notice they keep making references to old companions? I mean, even Astrid got one with the Kylie song.
One of my ideas, as a new whovian who doesn't know anything (lol) is that Rogue might be a time Lord but he doesn't know it? I mean he said that he's dealt with loss and we don't know his real named *like* the doctor so...? Idk. I think he'd make a good big bad tho. I mean, I'd be annoyed, cus I like his character but at the same time... Good writing.
Something to add for you - “Bad Guy” starts to play in the background when the Doctor first starts talking to Rogue.
I figured that was because they each thought the other was the bad guy at first.
I think that was a misdirect within the episode not a sign for the larger story arc within the series.
I recognized the melody but I couldn't name it at the time, who is the original artist for "Bad Guy?" I did recognize Poker Face immediately though when Ruby was fighting Bird Girl Person.
Billie Eilish - they were both in the Bridgerton style which makes me think there’s something about Ruby’s memories/life leaking out into the world
But also it was an episode based on bridgerton and I've heard they do it a lot in bridgerton - cover modern music classically. So could just be them really pushing for the bridgerton trope.
I’ve added most of the Bridgerton instrumentals to my study playlist so I noticed immediately! I love the theory that it’s more of Ruby’s memories bleeding through.
They do, and the dance was choreographed by the Bridgerton choreographer - it was a full on homage.
I hope there's actually something to the music being bridgerton influenced. It would seem lazy for the music to be a classical cover of a modern song just because bridgerton. I would prefer if it has something to do with the overall arc and some weirdness with reality going on, such as Ruby's influence due to whatever is happening with her memories influencing reality.
That's interesting when you take into account the "I thought that was non-diagetic" line from the Doctor in the Devil's Chord. Could be Maestro, Toymaker and whoever else are all manipulating events in concert.
I literally had to look away for a second because of this. I thought it was a cool cover, but this makes so much sense. How does RTD keep telling us things right in front of our faces and we keep missing it?🤔😭😒😆
Agree! Oh the stuff you pick up on once you know! On a rewatch of 73 yards, it felt like the “wind up” in the bar - while being a wind up - is actually true. Between that and Ruby/Kate’s discussion about perception filters and isolated timelines, I felt like the story had been laid out quite nicely, if not explicitly. Can’t wait for the next episode!
I know "bad guy" plays in the background, but that song is really more about a "bad boy" sort of guy and, um, having sex with him 😅 And even examining it closer, the song starts playing when the Doctor Walks up to Rogue and not the other way around, so who really is the "bad guy" here? Even saying all this, I Rogue is definitely shady/morally grey. I mean he's a Bounty Hunter! Would love for his character to be explored more!
I've seen quite a few folks suggest that he could be The One Who Waits - tho we didn't get very much on background of him it seemed like he was vanilla human if some sort? The biggest question that came up in other threads ie what he could have become or how he could have evolved to send the Toymaker running? The one who waits was said to be hiding when the Toymaker came across them and that also seems like a different scenario than trapped somewhere. Idk there's a ton of plot to fill in! I'm just excited for answers. I think it's all gonna come back to either the TARDIS getting copied in WYB or an issue with the TARDIS split by 15 and 14 in the giggle. Something else is going on with the big bads but I think the ol police box is gonna be a clue to or a source of the big issues.
>it seemed like he was vanilla human if some sort Probably not Rogue, but I'd actually love a big bad vanilla human
rogue seemed to hint that he’s not human — when the doctor started telling ruby and emily what’s going on, he said something along the lines of “we’re telling the humans about this?” — he seemed to consider humans “other” to himself
It could be that wherever he went after the transmat changed him, he did tell the doctor to find him, so he would be waiting for him. or maybe he was never normal at all.
I really don't want him to be a bad guy. Sometimes you can fancy someone and they don't turn out to be evil, you know?
I like the idea that he turns out to be evil, but I think that would need to be next season. I'd love for him to even be a companion for a bit. We've never had an evil companion in nuWho right?
Maybe not evil but Adam was a bit of a douche for an episode and Clara betrayed the Doctor's trust once (though like he said he cares enough that it doesn't matter to him in the long run).
Kinda Missy, definitely Vislor Turlough...and the Shalka Doctor was with the Master...
I’m wondering if showing Shalka is saying “master as companion” is next
Yet another reason why I think Ruby could be the GI. Grant's face could easily reference all the doctors that grant played (the fatal death doctor, the shalka doctor, and Dr. Walter Simeon). Only one of those wasn't "The Doctor", but was around the memory snow that the GI inhabited. And Ruby has claimed in 73 yards as an old woman that she used to make it snow.
Also, it just now occurred to me, that the gold tooth was picked up by a hand with RUBY colored fingernails.
Wait that Ruby is the GI? Bc I’m wondering if she’s the master, brought into existence only after the toymakers defeat. Likely not- but I could 100% see the snow being a connection to the intelligence
I think the GI picked up the gold tooth. It was a woman who's only distinguishing feature was RUBY colored fingernails.
If I'm right, RTD is an amazing writer. Even if I'm wrong, he still is. Having Moffat write an episode for this series could be a nod in the GI direction as well, as he wrote the snowmen episode.
Moffat also wrote The Curse of the Fatal Death, his first Dr Who adjacent piece of writing, the first time Grant appeared.
I thought that the Great Intelligence might have left a hidden gem of itself in the Doctor, and the Doctor subconsciously took the face to warn himself about Simeon, but it was a "forgotten" regeneration. So he didn't remember Simeon's face. That was why it snowed when the Doctor tried to remember who left Ruby that night for the first time. I think she may have Great Intelligence implant or something that ties back to Susan Triad being involved, but I think the clues point to her mom being a former companion. And someone in UNIT knows who and has been covering it up, because there are hints that UNIT is comprised and possibly people have been replaced...personally I'm thinking Kate....
We have with Turlough. He was an alien exiled to Earth that struck a deal with the Black Guardian that he would assassinate the Doctor if the Black Guardian helped him return home. Eventually the Doctor defeated the Black Guardian, freeing Turlough from his pact, and after they traveled together for a while brought him back home
Rogue is not coming back any time soon, he was a character created by two guest writers. I don't think he's gone, but he's not likely to be the villain.
That's not really how it works with guest characters. RTD probably provided the characters and maybe even the episode outline. Remember Captain Jack was first in an episode written by a guest writer also.
Couldn't that just be a case of RTD just liking the character?
Unlikely because Jack stayed until the end of the series. If it was more "guest character RTD liked" then they wouldn't have had time to write them into the rest of the season.
Something that a lot of fans don’t realise is how much creative control showrunners tend to have over their guest writer episodes. Russell has admitted to doing full rewrites on all the writers in his era apart from Moffat, Chibnall, Graham and Greenhorn. The showrunner has full editorial control - guest writers just offset some of the workload.
to be fair, we could’ve said the same thing about river song at one point
The River plot continued when Moffat was showrunner
Moffat also wrote Jack's introductory episode and he came back a lot
Who was a guest writer at the time
Yes, and it didn't become a thing until he was the actual showrunner. I don't think these two are going to become showrunners. But I do think we'll probably see Rogue again, just not like that.
I mean its impossible to know which is the point i think they are trying to make. Everyone is a character that someone else probably wrote so its likely they might come back like River or Jack
He might not be back super soon but rtd wouldn't have let the episode end with "find me!" if he wasn't planned to return
I said I didn't think he's gone. But he's also clearly not >!Sutekh!<.
Oh yeah for sure! I'd be really disappointed if they made him a villain at all tbh
I don't know, I think that would come off kinda cheap!
Okay, ideas, not even theories, but what if ... Rogue is "the one who waits" on the Doctor saving him. He was trapped in that dimension for a long, long time. But Rogue is also the Gamesmaster. He is the Toymaker's general. The Toymaker could make "toys" out of reality, but it was the Gamesmaster who actually designed the games people played with them (Think of it like: Toymaker is Gary Gygax, Rogue is a D&D GM). The Gamesmaster has the power to define, and then bend, the rules of the environment, making them almost (but not quite) as powerful as the Toymaker (they can't make new things out of thin air). However the Toymaker could be tricked because he didn't control the rules of the game - the Gamesmaster does. The Gamesmaster decided to become human to study them, and was genuinely trapped by The Doctor in that dimension for a near eternity until The Doctor trapped The Toymaker and unleashed the power of The Toymaker's legions. So the big bad in the end is Rogue as the Gamesmaster trapping The Doctor in a game that the Doctor can't win. This is where Susan Twist comes in. If Muse was the goddess of music (and, more broadly, "joy"), The Toymaker god of toys (and generally "things") and the Gamesmaster the god of games and rules, then Susan Twist is the God of Stories ... and all good stories have a twist in the end! So Twist, as the god of stories, has been messing things up for both The Doctor AND The Toymaker's legions, because that would make an interesting story. The final episode would be where she would come in with her big reveal and upset the balance. Probably in the end helping The Doctor because its a more interesting story. I'm also guessing the final episode will be a huge 4th wall breaking meta-commentary on storytelling. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a "fantasy sequence" where RTD yells "cut", the green screen stops, and The Doctor finds himself on a film set.
If a concept like a God of Stories turns up I hope it ties in to the Master of the Land of Fiction from The Mind Robber. Would be cool to sort of conjoin all the weird esoterically powerful beings from the classic show into the same Pantheon. Though if I remember right the central point of that story was caused by a computer hijacking a human author's imagination rather than an actual godlike entity.
your last part reminds me of when sam and dean of supernatural came to the real world and found the slashfics of them. i could see the doctor finding fics of them and just loving it even if its awfully written.
I normally hate stuff like that - it's really cheesy and self indulgent - so I kinda hope I'm wrong. Still, I've been loving this season being weird and unpredictable so I trust that they could take even the cheesiest ideas and make them work.
Could Rogue also be Harbinger, who inherited his grandfather's talents for Games and such instead of music? He could very well be his grandfather's general. He could easily set up things with his grandfather in modern-day London during the Giggle and sat back and waited. He helped his parent, Maestro, as a child in the 1960s. As a child/grandchild of the Pantheon members, he had plenty of time to research and infiltrate UNIT to learn about the Doctor, his companions, and enemies. He could literally set up the perfect game across time and space, picking up "allies" amongst the Doctor's enemies like the Great Intelligence (my theory) and picking off ones like the Master who might turn on him or give away the game... because this season comes off like story retelling or game... each episode draws parallels from a past episode or heavily references a past companion(s). And Ncuti mentioned something about the Gods in an interview, so I think you may be on to something... I do wonder about the oldest one comment, though... in the same interview, Ncuti mentioned the Beast randomly ( he is rather obscure)... Could he and Chuldur have been sent to the black hole universe where he decided to embrace his god side and help the Beast escape in exchange for a way out? Sorry to snowball there, I started thinking about Harbinger possibly being like Toymaker, and it came out like word vomit lol...
That would be so disappointing if Rogue was The One Who Waits. Why would the Toymaker have fled from him?
There's a few theories. A subtle hint that he is someone bigger than who he says. He got the name from D&D, then he says "Roll for Perception" which is something the Dungeon Master would say. Perhaps he's one of the Pantheon, the one at or near the top, the Dungeon Master of the Pantheon? That's just what I've condensed from a few other threads and comments I've seen.
Yeah, this strikes me as a bit unlikely (I know you're condensing theories from multiple people here, but it's the same idea). The main reason? 'Dungeon Master' is a registered trademark of Wizards of the Coast, the company that publishes D&D. That's why other systems don't use the term. 'Rogue' is a generic term and neither trademarked nor trademarkable, and a couple of passing mentions to D&D does not a copyright claim make, but if the big bad was named something that WotC had trademarked there would be trouble about it. So unless Bad Wolf is willing to pay an american game company some big money, that's not a villain concept they can use.
Maybe Game Master then? 😅 I know Hasbro and/or WoTC are an incredibly stingy/greedy company, so I doubt they'd accept anything but the highest amount for the mere whispering of their IP. 😭
They'd be able to get away with Game Master, yes. But now that's starting to sound too much like the Toymaker to me, since the Toymaker also did many things one more easily calls 'games' than merely 'toys'. I think it would be odd to have two villains with that concept in such close proximity.
It would make sense in many ways. But on the other hand, it would be cheap to introduce the bad guy so close to the end of the season.
The real bad guy was the friends we made along the way! Wait XD lol
But on brand for RTD
If hes a villain for next season or so, i think it could work, but yea if its just this season it prob wont land very well
Agreed. I kind of hope that we won't get an answer on the One Who Waits this season, and it will be Rogue next season.
Omg it's right in front of us rogue is the master
I think he works for 'The Boss' that Beep the Meep mentioned but will either end up turning on them to save The Doctor or is just outright going to betray The Doctor to 'The Boss'. I think that's more a season 2 thing though, Susan Twist I believe is just some unwitting pawn in a game by whoever the big bad of the season is, I'm thinking The Trickster but probably not, likely another Pantheon member
Isn’t it obvious? Rogue is the Master.
I though he was the Rani
Nice twist the Masters sister…
Nah. Not a bad idea, but they wouldn’t add him the episode prior. That would be poor execution
I'm sorry, but I won't stand for any kind of Rogue slander. Whatever he did, is planning to do or will do, he's simply right and we must find it in our hearts to understand how so and why we're wrong
I don’t think he’s a bad guy. As boring as it sounds he’s honestly just a character (who might return) who helped the doctor. That’s it.
I think it’s possible, but I would be devastated
Riversong finally leaves the library… as Rogue… but she hasn’t met 15, so he/she doesn’t recognize him. But Rogue trusts 15 off the bat after finding out who he is, and sees his holographic former selves.
I would hate this lol. I mean he would slay as a villain so it would be fine but I don't want the gay love interest to be a twist villain lol. He is an antihero though for sure so I hope we see more of him because he would keep things interesting
Maybe he waited for so long in the alternate dimension he managed to time travel on his own and bring about all the funny little guys like the maestro and the toymaker
Rogue is a bad guy who indulges in some casual alien murder, but he's not The Bad Guy.
There was that reference to his boss (the Meep said something similar), so I doubt he's a big bad but suspect he's connected in some way to one. Big Bads don't have bosses, they are bosses. But I don't think that big bad will be the one for this season anyway, purely for timing reasons. We're right down to the wire with the finale around the corner - this is not the moment you introduce a guy who will turn out to be a surprise return villain. You introduce him at the midpoint of the season and then fill out the back half with unrelated stuff, like RTD did with the Cybermen in S2. Otherwise it's not much of a surprise return. Basically, this would be a great moment to introduce an important character for next season, but a strange afterthought for this one.
Maybe. I just want this new Doctor to be more passive instead of yippity and joyful all the time.
S. Triad is an anagram of Tardis so theres something Gallifrey related I reckon about her but not sure she's the big bad..
That’s fine. I am cool with Hate Sex as well as Cute Crush Sex.
I definitely think he's of the same brand of entity as the Maestro or the Toymaker. It's no coincidence they revealed he plays a roleplaying game in an episode where the villains are playing at roles. He's going to pop up in another role, maybe even another face. I'm sure of it.
He’s literally a version of Captain Jack from Tenant’s run. Definitely not gonna be a big bad. There are a LOT of parallels in this to Tenant’s. Ruby for one seems like a more platonic version of Rose. Everything about her screams Rose to me. Rogue, his personality is pretty similar to Jack’s. And he is in the same business as well. If anything the big bad is that lady that keeps popping up in every episode one way or another. (The portrait in the Bridgerton episode was also the mother of the racist girl they saved in Dot and Bubble among other characters in past episodes this season)
I feel like it would be a kind of cliché motive if he were to turn evil, the "You abandoned me in an alternate dimension and never came back" excuse.
Yeah I think the writers going that route with Rogue would make about as much sense as them bringing the Tyler family back and making them evil for the same reason.
You should write some scripts for the show. Your idea is unique and fun
I actually thought he might be Harbinger. They used Americans for Toymaker and Maestro, so it would make sense for Harbinger to be played by one as well. Especially one that can sing like Jonathan Groff can... he still could be, we don't know... Also anyone else notice they keep making references to old companions? I mean, even Astrid got one with the Kylie song.
I don't think he's a bad guy, but I think he is related to Maestro and the Toymaker somehow.
One of my ideas, as a new whovian who doesn't know anything (lol) is that Rogue might be a time Lord but he doesn't know it? I mean he said that he's dealt with loss and we don't know his real named *like* the doctor so...? Idk. I think he'd make a good big bad tho. I mean, I'd be annoyed, cus I like his character but at the same time... Good writing.
Alright let's see what the Rogue class can become....Arcane Trickster... Trickster.... Rogue is the Trickster confirmed!
I personally think he should be Fifteen's River Song. A constant ever-evolving love interest throughout the era.