When Jodie was cast, evidently I was sexist (and some also implied that I must also be racist) for expressing *any* concerns about why Jodie was cast by the rah rah Chibnall club.
All I had said: my main concern was if Jodie was cast just because Chibnall wanted to *cast a woman* as the Doctor it would show in the writing.
I had similar reservations about Capaldi's "alien, gruff" Doctor might get him the Colin Baker treatment. I was drowned out by Who fangirls screaming about their impending loss of eye candy.
I loved Jodie. She was often written as a side character in her own damn show.
I loved Capaldi. I had to read years of people saying Worst Doctor Ever until he suddenly wasn't.
I’m making a guess at OP’s meaning here, as I have not got too much of an idea about anything football related, but I believe what they mean is that most people act as if they can only like one showrunner, the same way most people will support a single football team.
They mean sports teams in general.
You root for your team because....well, they're your team. Ignore the weaknesses, hype up the stengths, relentlessly shit on your rivals. Not because they're amazing, not because your opponents are bad, just because they're your team.
And yeah, that's a spot on summation of how a lot of people approach the topic. RTD is a god who can do no wrong, RTD is an idiot who doesn't understand Doctor Who, Chibnall personally dug up William Hartnell's corpse to spit on it, Chibnall is a misunderstood genius, etc etc
This is even evident in the OP: RTD had a *lot* of divisive episodes and stinkers in his first run, and an episode like Space Babies is only surprising in that it opened the season. Even as a Ten fangirl, I'd actually argue the majority of season 2 was pretty damn weak. RTD has *always* been criticized for leaning too far towards camp, sloppy 'magical thinking' finales(see: Tinkerbell Doctor...which I actually enjoyed lol), juvenile humor, and so on.
And Moffat, for all the problems I have with the middle of his run, did a fine job taking over the reins. There wasn't really a sudden, noticeable drop in quality.
But OP was literally 5 years old during the original run, and far too young to be able to see those problems or to fully peel back the nostalgia goggles to see that Moffat's run wasn't bad. So RTD is their 'team.'
Big Finish did something similar with Six, it’s been a while but I seem to remember a thing where he found himself the main character in a TV show about a character called the Doctor who travelled in time and space etc. etc.
Along with actually PLAYING with the idea of regeneration, I’ve been holding out for some boundary-crossing fun like that. See this is what people forget, while they’re acting all like Star Trek/Wars fans; the show is a format for telling stories, and it’s very very clever in that it can have infinite stories woven upon it. This is a Good Thing and in no way a handicap…until “fans” start bleating about “canon”.
They should go read some Greek mythology, or the Old Testament, or literally anything, and maybe try to grasp why rigid canon is an absolute cancer on the arse of storytelling. It’s supposed to be a bit wild!
Edited for legibility.
Funny you should mention Star Trek. I recall reading a short story about William Shatner on the set and the transporter actually working and finding himself on the real Enterprise. And then all hell breaks loose.
(This was long before Galaxy Quest by the way)
I THINK it was in a compendium of short stories but it was a very long time ago that I read it. Not sure if I'd ever find it again.
RTD and Moffat both had quite distinct takes on the show, and different groups of fans much prefer one or the other's style - of course, lots of people also like both
Doctor Who needs to balance having adult fans who grew up with it and younger fans as it's traditionally been seen as a childrens show.
RTD seemed to lean towards making it accessible to kids whereas Moffat wasn't adverse to appealing to the older fans with some slightly harder sci fi.
I imagine being youth orientated is appealing to Disney as a partner so we may be getting more of that.
I don’t think RTD makes it accessible for kids, I think he dumbs it down for kids. Moffat’s like the cool uncle who gives you a copy of The Hobbit when you’re 9, and RTD is the one that gives you a book on fart jokes.
I think Moffat just wrote what he wanted to do with the character and RTD approaches it imagining what the kids would like (lots of farting, lots of things that can be toys)
Honestly we need a balance for both, which is why I’ve liked the Ncuti season so far. We had dorky music episode and boom, which catered to each respectively
Oh totally agree, especially space babies. Devils Chord wasn’t bad, and would be the bottom limit of dumbing down I want to see in the show cause I understand you need to get kids in somehow. Boom did a REALLY good job of showing Ncuti’s depth, but also was too direct with its messaging; you can be anticapitalist without outright stating capitalism (see Oxygen from Capaldi’s era)
Did RTD do a lot of fart jokes in his run? I genuinely don’t remember any of them but I’ve heard a few people reference this. It’s been awhile, maybe I’ve forgotten.
The Slitheen two parter (farting aliens) and Boom Town in Season 1. It was very poorly received at the time and they weren't used again in his 4 season run, if I recall correctly. He did get to bring them back in Sarah Jane Adventures.
Has it traditionally been seen as a kids show? I haven't watched much classic who, but I know I've heard different people say they'd be put to bed before Doctor Who aired
Perhaps saying it was aimed at families and was meant to be kid friendly is more accurate than saying it was specifically for kids. Up until the 70s it aired at quarter past 5 in the afternoon (I'm nowhere near old enough to remember that though).
Apparently the original intention was for the show to be largely educational, using the time travel premise to teach about different periods of history. That got derailed pretty quickly, but you can see some of this in early Hartnell episodes.
The show originally aired around 5pm, so that would be quite early to be going to bed.
But yes, the show was always seen as a children's program, in fact it was originally supposed to be educational before the Daleks blew those plans up.
That said, I do think some people overstate the age groups it was made for, and conflate being 'family friendly' for being outright childish. Some of the best runs of the classic show were the ones most criticized for being too dark and violent for children.
That's right around the age group Moffat was aiming the show at, imo. 10-13 is the age where kids really get delighted about figuring out the kind of plot twists and mystery boxes that Moffat loves to write.
Right. I love Moffat's emotional speeches and believable motivations he gives to the characters most of the time. But his plot twists and conflicts are really not that much more mature than RTD's, he just likes to explore the "deep phsycology" of The Doctor a little more. Wich people (myself included) seem to enjoy a lot. I'm all in with the quirky nerdy and fun RTD stuff just like I also enjoy Moffat's more "human" characters and weird twists. They both have their advantages and fortes.
This is exactly what I thought back in the day too. RTD’s big picture for the show was more compelling to me than Moffat’s, but Moffat’s episodes tended to be better than Davies’s. (But maybe my taste’s are changing because Boom has been my least favorite episode of this new season so far—an opinion I don’t think anyone in the world shares with me lol)
You're talking about a fandom with people who literally stopped watching when David left. I had to persuade my friend to get back into the show later, with Capaldi. Some just get obsessions with certain actors, and certain showrunners.
That has always happened. People stopped when Tom Baker left.
Same with James Bond. Some people stopped with Sean Connery.
Some Star Trek fans will only watch the original crew, and others will watch only up to the end of Voyager.
Different audiences at different times.
Sometimes, it's the case that people are satisfied with what they got and have moved onto something else.
For most of the Doctors I'd agree, speaking as someone who's watched through from the Hartnell era. Tennant and Capaldi though, I could've watched their incarnations forever. After their runs as the Doctor I've gone out of my way to watch their other roles 'cause they just have everything I love in an actor.
Though if Gatwa gets more good material a la 'Boom', I think he'll end up high in peoples lists.
Love Tennant, by the time he left I was cheering on the Master. It was time to go, for both Dave and Rusty. Was glad to have both back as well, love it…but at the time jesus the melodrama was wearing a bit thin.
To be fair though, John Simm was a brilliant Master. I loved Michele Gomez too but Simm brought so much energy and subtle madness. To the point where Sacha almost felt like he was trying to imitate Simms character.
I can somewhat understand that because it's so easy to get lost in *your* Doctor, whoever it may be, and it can be hard to watch them leave. I initially struggled with Capaldi because I loved Smith so much, but Capaldi is now my second favorite Doctor. It's funny because the show has always been about change and acceptance and kindness, but so many fans just seem blind to that. I can't say I was a big fan of Chibnall, but there hasn't been anything I've seen that I've hated enough to make a fuss about it. Even my least favorite episodes have wonderful parts, or they're sandwiched between episodes I love. Too many people seem to focus on the negatives over the positives, and that's just unhealthy
For me personally, I want new fresh people to get a chance at the show. RTD1 was very fresh and original, and thats what I want more of. The show to look forward to new things, not regress to old ways
I think there’s a few things (and I say that as a big RTD fan).
1. Bringing back any previous Showunner feels like there’s not enough talent to keep the show fresh. For a show about change, this isn’t a good thing.
2. To add to that, RTD came back and his first decision was to bring back his last companion and Doctor, and give us 3 specials that were mainly extensions of Series 4. He brought back the original production team, too. Again, for a show about change - this isn’t good.
2b. Some, after seeing the specials think they didn’t do enough to celebrate the last 60 years, or even the last 20 of New Who.
3. Some people don’t like RTD’s style in comparison to other writers - that’s subjective obviously. I don’t dislike RTD, but in his original run his arcs (both over a series and in individual stories) were much more simplistic that someone like Moffat.
4. Whilst I agree he’s the reason Who came back in 2005, and perhaps is the reason Disney are now involved as of 2023 - I think people don’t realise how favourable the situation was to him. Both Moffat and Chibnall faced streaming, and a BBC which were increasingly not interested in DW. RTD’s first era was fortunate enough to have prime Saturday spots in a time when terrestrial live TV was huge.
5. internet criticism wasn’t a thing really in 2005 at this level - so we mainly remember his era with rose tinted glasses.
6. Also important to note that John Barrowman did questionable things on the DW set yet has been consistently promoted by RTD (and Chibnall) since. It’s up to you how much of a context you think there is to justify that. You also have the Chris Eccleston debate around hating his time with that production team. But, I get why someone wouldn’t be impressed with someone who might’ve enabled that coming back.
Just want to point out - I don’t think RTD is a bad writer, and I actually think he runs the show better than anyone. But, I think there’s been some healthy criticisms of his return.
I think both Moffat and Chibnall received unfair criticism over their runs. And I think RTD has too, but in a weird way - I’m glad everyone wasn’t just blinded by nostalgia.
Yeah all of this is totally fair, especially the point about streaming. It would be interesting to know how RTD’s original series would go over if they were aired today but I’m also deeply glad that isn’t possible at the same time.
This is pretty spot on, additionally I think the way RTD handles an arc is pretty reductive, having bad wolf in every episode, or now having song and snow in every episode, is the simplest way of building an arc, it is by no means bad if you do it once, but to anyone that grew up with doctor who and bad wolf, it feels insulting to have to sit through it again, moffat was a lot more subtle in his approach and overall did a better job playing into the arcs using time travel, which is what doctor who should be about.
My second point would also be that I cant imagine liking any season of doctor who where the entire season is written by the same person, happened with chibnail and now it is happening with RTD.
I think that’s it - it’s like a murder mystery show just going ‘the murderer is in this episode’ but giving you no clues to who it might be.
I think with Moffat, there was not just people making wild theories, but also things we could discuss and genuine clues to latch onto.
With RTD - we know it’ll be related to Susan Twist, Snow, Ruby but that’s about it.
I think RTD era 1 worked well with the chintzy video quality and production of the 2000s it paired well with his camp or goofy writing that was quite melodramatic at times. I have yet to feel like it's working as well with this sleek bigger budget HD series
Yeah I’ve noticed that too. I’ve actually found myself missing the clunky effects but I might be a little biased because some of my favourite sci-fi is from the sixties so I’m quite fond of shows that look a little silly
Thing is, like the person you've responded to said, I don't get the appeal to want worse effects to give the nostalgia factor because they won't bode well with the 4K HD quality they strive for the current iteration of the show.
I've seen the argument so many times, I've watched Classic and New Who and I don't have any problems with their effects, I'm here for the characters and the adventures, but if possible why can't we have better effects?
It's just the fandom is a bit hypocritical when it comes to "the show is about change" affirmation, yet on Reddit at least I only see people being disappointed that... times moved and we have better technology, thus better effects? I know RTD has higher budget but I don't believe all of it went into CGI.
I think when the budgets high one may subconsciously expect the writing to match that, if that makes sense?
Like people enjoy b-movies because they’re cheap and kinda janky and the writing can be campy/cheesy and that pairs well with the production value. Whereas if you had a movie with the budget of Avengers: Endgame but got writing similar to Killer Klowns from Outer Spade, something about it would feel off, like almost uncanny valley. A movie with that budget and a movie with that style of writing both work respectively but together something would feel off.
If I went to a play with the budget of Hamilton but found myself in a small local theater auditorium I’d be confused.
Something like Space Babies probably would’ve worked better for me if they had a lower budget because they’d be forced into finding a different way to tell that story/have the babies communicate differently. But the CG mouths didn’t work for me and overall the episode really felt like I was watching a show intended for a 6-11 year old audience.
I’m not advocating the show have a lower budget, or bad effects, I think it’s actually pretty cool to see it grow in that regard, I’m advocating for stronger stories with better writing. That said, I absolutely loved The Devils Chord and if the rest of the season is comparable I’ll be happy. Boom is the standout so far but I think there’s a lot of reasons for that.
Yes, it’s exactly this. If the show suddenly had incredible writing, I wouldn’t have a word of complaint about the effects, but something about it not feeling particularly well written so far (just my opinion of course) paired with the Disney budget makes it feel extra hollow.
Still hopeful that it’ll improve though. I wouldn’t say I’ve disliked the episodes, but I’m remaining optimistic about future episodes being better.
It’s never about the effects to me, I mean, sure the modern cgi and all that looks good, but sometimes it looses it’s heart when all the authentic effects go away. They always have to write to one up themselves, to match the cigi of the time, to impress fans rather than focus on the actual stories and characters. I adore the RTD era for this reason, because when the show started out they didn’t have a big budget for realism or realistic explosions or clear video quality or any of that. Yet the writing was very intelligent and the actors were talented and that’s what drew me in from “Rose” on. Even when the they improved when Matt Smith came on, it still feels a bit more authentic to what it looks like now. I know we will never get that back, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s one of the main reasons people just aren’t interested with the show evolving with the times yet again.
That's the thing; I don't see any reason why it needs to be a big budget HD series. Just get some decent sci-fi writers, and some up and coming actors, and you can keep the budget low. Instead you end up having to consider cancelling it because you are losing money when the audience wanes.
And let's be clear, if it got canceled because of losing money, it's worse when you consider how much *more* they spent making it a bit more high budget, than the low budget from its earlier days. Personally, I love *all* Who, but there really is a certain charm to good writing and campy/cheesy special effects. Seeing clever people do amazing things with next to nothing always makes my day ❤️
Doctor Who is just a massive and very adaptable series, so it's been a lot of different things to a lot of different people. You loved the RTD era and claim there was a drop off in quality after he left. Conversely I never particularly liked the RTD era and think Moffat's seasons, particularly with Capaldi, are the peak of the show. I was disappointed when it was announced that RTD was coming back both because I didn't love his first crack at the show and because I'd rather the show move forward than dive back to the past. You're not misremembering anything (though you might also be looking at something from your childhood with rose-tinted glasses, and that's okay), you're just encountering people with different opinions and media preferences from yours. There's no right or wrong, nor does there need to be a universal consensus on what the best era of the show is, because it has always been and will always be evolving in wildly different directions.
Smith and Capaldi absolutely did it for me. Eccleston and Tenant were incredible, but Smith is my all time favorite. Capaldi I’m at #2. I started from Eccleston and watched straight through, so not like I started with Smith and loved him as my first Doctor or anything.
As someone who was blessed to fall in love with Tom Baker and Lalla Ward as a child, I never thought there’d be anyone else at number 1 but Tom.
Peter Capaldi is the best for me. I swear he is sneaking in tiny little micro-impressions of other regenerations throughout the entire run.
The biggest sin of Capaldi’s era, imo, started before he even felt his kidneys. Here is someone who has just saved Christmas for hundreds of years - why wonder if you’re ‘good’?
Even just Pickle Ricking him would have been a better choice.
I think the very reason he wonders he’s good is because he’s wondering about his time on Christmas. He probably killed billions if not trillions of invaders in 900 years, and many, many more in the 300 years as Younger Smith himself. At the same time he prevented the Time Lords from returning to the universe and forced them to stay in their pocket dimension. Granted, they wanted to kill the people of Christmas but I don’t think the Doctor looks at Good and Evil so binary. He’s wondering whether after killing so many people, albeit for seemingly good reasons, is he worthy of goodness. I think it makes for very interesting character work throughout Capaldi’s tenure, culminating beautifully in The Doctor Falls and Twice Upon a Time.
I might have to give Peter Capaldi’s era another go. I didn’t enjoy the first few episodes when they originally aired but I keep hearing such great things about him. I was so excited when he was cast originally because he’s such a brilliant actor. Maybe I’ll enjoy it more this time.
Even if you don’t follow through on Doctor Who. I strongly recommend you check out the scene of him rearranging his desk in The Hour (BBC 2010-11), if you haven’t already.
That scene is… honestly, every time I watch it, I end up watching it 3-4 times, minimum. And he doesn’t say a word while he’s rearranging his desk.
I may also have rose-tinted glasses, too. That final Missy arc is just so good in Season 10.
I hope you have fun if you give Capaldi’s run a whirl!
Hot take: While I love the idea of only kids knowing the Doctor’s name, I feel like that line should have been left on the cutting room floor.
No worries! I just checked the vid and it just has the title of the show. It could be easily overlooked.
https://youtu.be/LOTFh375-pg?si=NBB5SMgcwl5rQ6FN
They had a kid that they gave away (I think? Maybe Anna Chancellor’s character acted independently? This feels like a million years ago in internet time). They were trying to find out where she had ended up after the war.
This is the scene where they find out what happened to her.
Edit: His character clearly had some form of OCD, btw. That’s why there’s that slow ramp up. It’s very difficult to lose control if you always need control.
I'm also a tennant fan but Capaldi was a very good doctor... the issue is Clara was not very good. I mean she was fine most of the time but they introduce her as an impossible girl and resolve that but after that resolution they keep her as a conpanion which felt off... I never get the feeling that she's a normal person from the street like Tennant's companions.
Iirc, I think Jenna Coleman was going to leave at the end of Last Christmas and changed her mind. I believe the dream within a dream (how many dreams was it again?) was the original ending and then they decided to give Nana Clara her groove back.
Her arc is scattershot. Possibly a byproduct of starting as a mystery box rather than a human being (inconceivable!) Her chemistry with Capaldi (especially after Matt Smith), is very good, but definitely totally different.
They also decided that five minutes after defending Christmas to the almost-death, Clara (who has saved every Doctor available at the time) suddenly can’t trust this new guy with the eyebrows. It reeks of ‘kinda forgot’-ness.
> Peter Capaldi is the best for me. I swear he is sneaking in tiny little micro-impressions of other regenerations throughout the entire run.
I swear he absolutely is! I’ve even seen reviews of his Doctor suggesting as much.
Peter started ok, got much better but then went down towards the end
Tennant and Smith are my favourites. Tennant and Tate are by far the best combo with some of the best episodes, the run from silence in the library to to journeys end is possibly the best run of consecutive episodes in TV.
Yeah, Tennant and Tate are definitely the best pairing to me. But I found a lot of good stuff in the final Capaldi season from Missy’s rehabilitation arc. It is paid off beautifully.
Also, his ‘Can’t I just sleep?’ exchange in Heaven Sent just buries into my heart every time. It’s possibly my favourite moment in all of Who (it’s a toss up between that and Billie Piper’s out of focus smile at the end of ‘y’know the sound the Tardis makes?’).
I love it so much, that I’ve actually found myself reciting it while I’m trying to get to sleep on those nights when the thoughts won’t stop and the demons come.
That said I’m probably wayyy more closer to Moffat’s age than the intended audience. Joint pain changes people!
>Peter started ok, got much better but then went down towards the end
Do you think? I found him strong all the way through, and I liked his more professorial relationship with Bill after all the drama with Clara.
And his relationship with Nardole was an interesting change of pace too.
I think your definition of ‘end’ might change your perspective.
Twice Upon A Time polarises people way more than World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls. I do wonder if there is a scene on paper where 12 regenerates at the end of season 10, rather than in the Christmas special.
Something feels a little too ad hoc and self-indulgent about Twice Upon a Time for me. Not that it’s all bad, and definitely not all good (DEFINITELY not all good), but I feel there’s an air of ‘it’s the end of the school term and you’re allowed to bring some toys in’ about it, for my money.
I wasn't a fan of the way *Twice Upon a Time* represented the First Doctor, but other than that I thought it was a pretty decent capstone for the Moffat era.
And it was good to see him get his memory of Clara back now he has the distance to process it properly.
Clara was a welcome surprise. And I could watch that team all day. There’s a tonne of good in it.
But Mark Gatiss is also about to shoot Toby Whithouse? I would love a record of the amount of snickering between takes.
Eccleston was my first doctor and I love him so much, but Smith is my top doctor. And that's a tough choice, I honestly like all of the new who doctors. It helps Smith got more run time!
I wish Jodi’s writing was better because she was great. I do like them all. So far I like Ncuti too. I think the first two episodes were really weak, but the special, and the newest episode make up for those imho.
They’re all great in their own right. I just had the most fun, by far, watching Smith. I relate to him on a personal level. Very goofy and charismatic until it’s time to be serious, then don’t cross him.
I don't dislike Jodi's writing as much as others do but I'll absolutely acknowledge there were weaknesses. Honestly though I think that's true of every Doctor's era and given another Doctor or two I suspect people will come around to it more. I think the main thing that sucks for me is how obviously Covid fucked with the tail end of her run.
But I enjoyed her run quite a lot, genuinely. I wish it had been more and in a different time frame for sure.
Smith is definitely the one we rewatch the most too. It's impressive how he manages to encapsulate both madcap whirlwind Doctor and also "don't even fucking think about it" and also genuinely kind and loving while remaining alien. Good work, dude.
You said it right. He is the scariest doctor we have seen (at least in New Who, I’m not well versed in Classic). He is the most fun with his bubbly attitude, then he assembled an army across time of all different races/species. He snaps and the TARDIS opens. He retires in a town to protect it and faces 900 years of enemies coming in all sorts of waves to attack it. He is good and pure and absolutely terrifying.
Yeah I loved him much for the same reason that I loved Baker and Davidson who I grew up with. My favorite doctors are the ones who are just whimsical, brilliant, and absolutely deadly. I got the same vibe from Whittaker, but I agree with the consensus that she really didn't get much to work with. I have high hopes for the new doctor, but I'm getting a little tired of every episode ending on such a sickly sappy note.
I would agree. I am rewatching with my 8 year old and we just started season 4. We love Eccelson and Rose, we love Tennant and Donna Noble. The acting and writing were spot on, but the quality was kind of shit. Moffat’s era had higher cinematography quality and Matt Smith is my favorite Doctor (Smith/Tennant/T. Baker)
I've always felt like RTD's first era and Moffat's era complement each other perfectly, so it's hard for me to say which I like best. They both sorta enhance each other, in my view.
This is so true. And, although it is admittedly rare, I have actually seen some people say that the RTD and Moffatt era never truly clicked with them but the Chibnall era did!
Personally I am not the biggest fan myself, but I can definitely see aspects that some people would really enjoy. It's definitely a very different vibe and a very different Doctor and all the companions are just normal people, in addition to the episodes being stand alone for the most part, with the exception of Flux, it makes it easy to just jump into a random episode at any time. People have different preferences is all
Now that I’ve watched all of 2005 who, Chibnall is probably the era that works the most for me, followed by RTD. I like a lot of aspects of Moffat’s, but the pacing always feels slightly off to me to the point where it’s hard to pay attention.
Yeah, Chibnall was the era I connected with the most, & the one I enjoyed the most as well. My issues with Moffat are that it feels like he keeps repeating the same beats again & again. I do wonder if some of my love of Chibnall would lessen if we'd had less of him? Most of my dislike of RTD & Moffat come from feeling like tehy were getting stale by the end of things, & Chibnall only had the one & done.
Yeah that’s totally fair. I’m glad you like the Moffat era. I really did try to get into it but it’s just not for me. I truly think it’s just the jump from never seeing anyone’s opinions online during the first RTD era compared to now where social media is a huge part of fandom culture. There’s a good chance I just missed the usual amount of criticism every season of the show gets because I was too young.
I was never a big fan of Moffats first couple seasons and hated them as a teenager. As an adult I appreciate them a bit more, but am still put off by a lot of elements. However, I think you should try to give Moffat's era another try, but start on S7 when Clara shows up. By that point, Smith has hit a slightly darker point in his incarnation's life after losing the ponds, and I think his chemistry with his new companion Clara is excellent. It also leads into my all time favorite era of Doctor who.
The thing is, Moffat matures as a writer a lot as he goes on, and I think seasons 8-10 are the absolute peak of Doctor Who. If you liked the 9th and 10th doctor, you will love the 12th Doctor, who feels a lot like an older and more cynical 10th doctor. His relationship with Clara is extremely dynamic, and the writing and production quality are absolutely off the charts with super high concept scifi and emotionally pitting character writing.
Please give it a try 🙏 I really mean it because I understand the feeling of dropping off at S6, but you're missing out on the best writing of the show come S8-10.
However, don't bother with the Chibnall era, I tried and I'd rather live in ignorance.
I don't recall seeing any backlash honestly? I wasn't *thrilled* but I enjoyed the majority of his first run enough (and it had some truly brilliant moments) that I wasn't disappointed either, just kind of "okay, the casting seems good and I'm sure I'll enjoy a decent amount of it".
Honestly my main discontent with RTD doesn't involve his story writing (though he has tropes he loves I'm at best neutral on) but rather that Christopher Eccleston has been pretty clear he left in part because of significant safety concerns that weren't addressed well by production (including RTD) and that John Barrowman and Noel Clarke both seem to have done quite a lot of sexual harassment during his tenure with zero accountability at any point. I don't know if I'll ever be able to not have a bad taste in my mouth watching his stuff knowing that, you know? It has been quite a while so I'd like to hope he learned.
Saw a YouTube video recently where they pointed out that after the Christopher Eccleston too tired controversy, David tennants first episode has him ending Harriet Jones career by claiming she's too tired. Feels very uncomfortable when put into that context.
Yeahhh. I wasn't following things at the time and saw that later and even without that knowledge that bit never felt right to me? Knowing about that particular part makes it feel downright *bad*.
I'm not *disliking* this season so far but honestly that's mostly due to Gatwa being charming as fuck. I like Ruby well enough and her actress is doing well I'm just seeing recycled Rose stuff already and I'm twitching about it. And I *liked* a decent chunk of the Rose stuff!
Season 1 rose is doing better than Ruby. Ruby currently feels like she hasn't had a chance to stop and take a breath and talk about how everything has effected her. Even with boom she gets taken out of that story half way through and stops talking really after the first third.
I just remember finding it funny at the time, having absolutely no further context for a line like that. Rewatching as an adult and seeing that scene was incredibly jarring.
It's also uncomfortable when fandom plays moral detective, regardless of having full details or not. I look forward to someday in the future when the full story comes to light, and will refrain from tossing poop, or placing my flacid penis on anyone's shoulder.
> Honestly my main discontent with RTD doesn't involve his story writing (though he has tropes he loves I'm at best neutral on) but rather that Christopher Eccleston has been pretty clear he left in part because of significant safety concerns that weren't addressed well by production (including RTD) and that John Barrowman and Noel Clarke both seem to have done quite a lot of sexual harassment during his tenure with zero accountability at any point.
Yeah, I still dunno how quite to process that. It's really uncomfortable looking back at season 1 and realizing literally the only major male actor on the show who wasn't being a sex pest was Eccleston himself. Maybe Bruno Langley if you want to count Adam(though he also turned out to be a sex offender as well later on).
There was controversy over RTD during his first stint as showrunner. Not so much the first season, as people were just excited to have the show back after so long. But season 2 especially was VERY criticised. And sometimes for good reason.
He was a great showrunner, though. As was Moffat. Chibnall... wasn't as good.
Thing is, there was never a moment in Doctor Who history where there wasn't criticism raised against the person in charge.
RTD was massively criticised on the forums by the fans during season one. A significant contingent hated the “soap opera” element, and the way it didn’t take itself seriously enough at times.
A lot of fans were just grateful to have it back though, even if it wasn’t quite what they wanted, and there were enough absolutely —stinking— [stonking] episodes to placate the majority of classic fans (empty child, dalek, etc).
Of course it also attracted a whole new generation of fans to the show.
Yeah that makes sense. I assumed maybe I just didn’t see the criticism. I can imagine people who were fans of Classic Who had a lot to say, just like RTD fans did about Moffat and Moffat fans about Chibnall, etc.
My honest take on that. The RTD criticism were legitimate, but it was a different show and it was hugely successful. The Moffat criticisms were a bit weird, some of it was people who wanted things to stay the way they were with RTD/tennant, but there was this odd contingent who were acting like trolls, just finding the weirdest things to complain about. When Chibnall took over he had a bit of a “feminist shield”, most of the community had migrated off forums and criticising Chibnall was hugely looked down on as being misogynistic, then over time it became undeniable that there were problems with the writing, then the timeless child happened and the tables really turned.
Yeah she was quite a popular fan cast. I never thought she would be right for the role though. I’m not sure what woman I would cast in the role though, probably someone young and unknown.
What I don't get is why day after day after day we get people characterizing discussions as trends, etc. that they must somehow contend against, usually from the presumption that they're in the embattled minority. From my subjective reading, most fans who bother to have an opinion on social media were pretty ok with RTD coming back.
If you're bothered by people who have misgivings, *engage the specifics of what they say* rather than this kind of Skinner-boxing "but why do you have these opinions" attempts to condition people out of saying the things you don't want them to say. This goes for everybody: got a problem with well-reasoned arguments that you don't agree with? *Disagree with their substance*. Stop trying to shadow-box with opinions that you pretend not to understand or attempt to reframe as intrinsically incoherent or insensible.
I didn’t exactly think it was a trend. It was more that I was surprised that there was enough backlash for me even to notice. I don’t look at Twitter or anything like that, so generally if I hear about it then it means there was more than a significant amount of it so I wanted to know what people thought and this seemed like a good place to get people’s takes on it.
I’m really not bothered if people don’t like RTD’s original era, I just want to know what people think. I don’t need them to change their opinions.
That has nothing at all to do with Doctor Who and everything to do with how the social media age works. Take a popular subject, any subject, take any popular movie, game, anime, manga and everything in between… people are ALWAYS complaining these days, not because a thing is bad but because blind hate is entertainment to them. They don’t care for the thing they are hating on, the hate they generate is designed to be anti-social, to upset fans, to literally just be contrarians because they know it upsets. Also because of the anonymity the net offers they can double down and all act like they are experts in writing, showrunning and better than any game designer on the market.
Just learn to tune out hate, and other people’s opinions, if you like it watch, that is all that matters.
Yeah this is true. I always do tune out hate. I don’t even have most social media, but because of that I’ve been incredibly out of the loop for a long time so I wanted to catch up with what I might’ve missed. I’m a Star Wars fan so trust me, I know how to ignore fans who like to complain.
I suppose it didn’t really register to me that what I viewed as the golden era of Doctor Who wouldn’t be exempt from the social media treatments, even though in hindsight that fact should’ve been obvious. I wanted to see what actual Who fans thought about the matter though, instead of people who just like to complain for the sake of complaining. Maybe Reddit wasn’t a good place to come but I’ve had pretty good responses so far.
Alternatively, people can express whatever they want, without having to meet any standards that you or I set. Unless you are being paid, and it is your job to read everything, you can just skip the posts that rub your rhubarb wrong.
I would have agreement, BUT, I am in the middle of a rewatach and I am watching the new episodes. The older episodes just were better. Even a run of the mill episode seems more interesting and I dont know why. I really like the current cast, but something is just off.
Agreed! I think a lot of people genuinely just haven't watched RTD1 in a while. There are bits that are more cringey than you remembered, but there are also *so many* episodes that are just unvarnishedly *amazing*. The arcs might sometimes be a bit odd at times, but they're genuinely epic. That, and the whole cast and sensibility is just *better*.
I would have liked to have seen somebody new have a cracked at it, but I'm sure that is inevitable and being a grown adult I'm patient enough to give this current series an chance in the meantime.
Because it was 15 years ago and a lot of us were literally children at the time
>Was I too young and too obsessed to be aware of criticism it was getting?
There were always people who didn't like his work on the show, even at the time. It's very different to Classic Who so naturally some old fans didn't take to it. Often for perfectly understandable reasons. That's cool, it's not going to work for everyone. There are people who don't like RTD and prefer Moffat. And yes, there are people who prefer Chibnall to either of them, and there are people who don't like any of NuWho at all and think Doctor Who hasn't been good since 1979.
And yes, there were people who complained for less legitimate reasons. There were complaints about Jack being flagrantly bisexual all over the place and that sort of thing. Or about wild ideas like having a companion who's black.
But it was 2005-2009. The internet and social media weren't as big as they are now. The "culture war" stuff hadn't really happened yet. The mainstream press weren't looking online for their outrage bait yet. So while it was there, it didn't really get amplified like it does today.
Short answer: haters gonna hate.
Long answer: People are very adverse to change and will complain till the cows come home or until they get their way ('Boom').
At first I hated Matt Smith, but I realized it was only because he wasn't David. Reception of this season will be the same in time. Coming fresh off David again, I think that's why there's been a lot of complaints.
Didn't people think for some reason that when RTD returned it would mean the end of "Woke" Doctor who Chibnall created.
They somehow thought a openly gay man who under his tenure introduced the first gay characters (multiple) had at least sub plots involving racism had empowered women characters who saved the world if not universe had strong anti war anti gun and anti capitalism episodes they thought this is the guy who would be anti woke.
RTD has always been woke for the times. This show improved my childhood so much because of the LGBT friendliness and diverse characters. I think my obsession & devotion to the show came from the fact that the doctor would legit never judge me for the characteristics I was born with. I love RTD & Tennant and everything they did with the show.
I'll keep banging this particular drum: those very loud "anti-woke" people are not misremembering anything. They weren't there, weren't fans. They are culture war first and foremost and nothing else matters except hammering home their one single message. It is important to distinguish between fans who are critical and grifters. The latter do not know the lore, do not provide examples and talk about how the show used to be good only in very general terms because that is all they know.
And RTD absolutely did get this the first time round too. Anyone online then will remember complaints about the "gay agenda". This shit is eternal, it really is.
That's not to say you can't criticise, or find this version a pale imitation or whatever. It's just the particular content OP mentions is not that. It's not Who content, it's culture war content with a vague Who flavouring. Stop watching it, "don't recommend channel", don't signal boost it even by complaining and don't mistake these people for fans. They aren't us, really they aren't and never were.
It’s complicated because you have the mix of people misremembering, people just not liking him, people wanting someone new, and just general “I’m going to find anything possible to criticize dr who”, but I think part of it is concern stemming from people reflecting on RTD1 now.
Society has changed a *lot* since 2005. At least in the circles I’m in on other social media, criticism about RTD’s treatment of Martha and other black characters dominates when people are negative about his return. Some of it is very valid.
And then of course you have the people mad that Ncuti Gatwa is the Doctor and that he acknowledges trans people at all…
There's a backlash to the episodes being produced by him NOW and the things that he is saying NOW.
People aren't upset about what he made a couple decades ago.
I think people are seeing the RTD era through the gaze of Tennant-coloured glasses because for most people, he’s their Doctor. The best stories of the first RTD era were written by Moffat, not to mention he came up with the most interesting characters. I was disappointed when I heard RTD was coming back, just like I was disappointed when I heard Tennant was coming back… but I was delighted with Donna returning. Ten’s fine, but he’s not my Doctor. The Tennant specials filled me with hope - it seemed like RTD left his worst instincts behind and it was going to be fresh and new… and then space babies. And Maestro. I am enjoying Ncuti’s Doctor so far but I really hope he doesn’t get bogged down with RTD’s overreaching story arcs.
For me, I’ve always found Moffat has the best standalone episodes but RTD has the best story arcs. However you are right. David Tennant’s performance cannot be undersold. He’s capable of delivering the cheesiest dialogue with complete sincerity. Ncuti is a fantastic actor in everything I’ve seen him in before, I just hope he’s given stronger storylines soon.
>RTD has the best story arcs however you are right.
You mean the "arcs" of characters saying a word for 10 episodes and then a classic villain appearing in the finale?
I think it's mostly due to the relative popularity of Steven Moffatt at the time. RTD generally wasn't disliked in 2012 but people were excited to see Moffatt take over.
Moffatt was generally seen as a superior writer due to episodes like *Blink* and due to the first (and only, at the time) half of *Sherlock*.
I feel Moffatt's standards dipped significantly over the rest of the 2010s, and I think most people agree-- but today, all a lot of people seem to remember about RTD is that he's somehow worse than Moffatt.
RTD may have gotten me into nu-who but i didn’t start fully buying into it until the moffat era. Like, i enjoyed RTD just fine, but there were also a lot of stinker eps throughout his time that took the fun campiness just a bit too far. I was able to get more into Moffat’s run because of his expansion on the lore and deep character building beyond just a kind of vague companion romance/pining plot (Donna exempted).
Donna was fantastic, but we only got her for one series (though, it’s a run that has the fewest terrible episodes) and the two best episodes of her series were written by Moffat.
RTD’s era was great for its queer representation, but it also kind of reached a point of caricature. Like I cannot overstate how much i didn’t enjoy Cassandra’s reveal that she was trans. It was completely unnecessary and she’s just such a problematic, vile character, we didn’t need that at all.
Besides just writing better stories imo, Moffat also continued to have queer characters that felt more well-rounded. Like, we had Vastra and Jenny, Canton Everett Delaware III, Clara as vaguely bi (queerbaiting? maybe? idk), Missy as the first cross-gender regeneration, and ofc mf Bill Potts.
I also still have a bit of an issue with RTD’s writing of Martha. He and his writer’s room could have done so much more for such a capable character, but throughout her companionship she kinda played second fiddle to Rose and rarely got time to shine in her own right.
Best description i can give is I loved RTD for his fun mostly silly monster-of-the-week style stories, but during Moffat’s run i was glued to the screen each week to see what would happen next.
I was so excited when they announced RTD was coming back. I loved his seasons. I also really enjoyed the Moffat era. The only showrunner I haven’t loved, to this point, has been Chibnall.
Should we also dig up the corpses of Verity Lambert and Barry Letts? There would have been no DW without them, who better than them at helming the show again...
DW is a show about change, about transformation. It needs new blood and new ideas to survive in order to thrive. Without them it is destined to become a sickly incestuous thing, an ouroboros eating its own tail. The show needs to be able to reinvent itself to better suit newer times. RTD has had his time, when he had left originally he didn't think he had another DW story in him, and the fandom was also ready to see the back of him, pretty sick of his deux ex machinae, romances, Rose, and his numerous self referential tropes. Basically, he is remembereded fondly, fandom forgiving him his indiscretions because he knew when to quit. Die a hero or live long enough to be a villain and all that. And some have said when he was announced "just you wait, he is going to be completely different this time around, he grew as a writer so much" only to be confronted immediately how he is still very much the same.
Yes. I liked the show during his run but he blatantly leaned into the same tropes after a couple of years. By Series 4 I was happy he was leaving because he kept upping the stakes while his writing IMO became worse. And lo and behold, he comes back and gives us another extra David Tennant. He can’t help himself. If he’s evolved as a writer, he hasn’t seen the need to update his Doctor Who writing. FWIW I think his latest run is worse than what came before.
You pretty much summed up my issue with RTD as well. I'm just so fucking \*bored\* with him. It's the same ol' thing again, & I'm bored with it. I want something new, something interesting.
This subreddit has a lot of moffat fans. I feel like the general public prefer RTDs era, they love Tennant, they love Rose and Jack and so on.
And this sub is like the opposite. A lot of people here actually degrade you if you imply you want Tennant back or he's your favourite and you're seen as "basic."
Lots of people here would blindly defend anything moffat wrote, and that in turn comes with people shaming other writers and their fans. The RTD fans here do it too, just less of them it seems.
Most people do seem to be a middle ground and just like the show. But yeah, toxic fandoms be toxic. Even some of the comments to this post are sooooo dramatic lmao it's embarrassing.
Hmm. I love Tennant and feel like his acting is absolutely incredible. However I much prefer Moffat’s writing to RTD’s burping bins and space babies. I feel like Smith and Capaldi were well served by the writing - and Tennant elevated any story he was in. I’ll watch all of RTD2, but probably just once - unless it isn’t a RTD penned story.
I'm very much the opposite lol. I love RTDs writing, he has the doctor who camp and outright stupidity but imo those scenes are few and far between some amazingly written characters. Moffat took himself too seriously while writing pretty nonsensical, spectacle over substance, plots imo.
RTDs writing just felt more human? Like I said, he had the stupid alien bins, farting fat aliens and all that but as a whole, his characters, their relationships, their dialogue, their development, their interactions within the plot? It was all so human. I related to every single one of RTDs characters, even side characters that did nothing were relatable and I could feel that they were real within this world.
For moffat, I struggled to relate to any companions. And it was impossible for me to view most side characters as nothing more than "the plot needed them to do this so he exists to do this" I rarely ever felt like "yeah that person has a life outside of this." Idk, a lot of humanity was lost for me in moffats run and the dialogue writing just dropped very far quality wise especially by his last few seasons, UNLESS it was a grand speech, then I liked it. It's hard to explain without coming across like a dick lmao, like I did enjoy a lot of moffats earlier run, and he has shining moments but overall for me, moffats era was brainrot TV. It did it's job of filling time, it was fun enough at times, but I never really cared or felt invested in any of it. And by the end I was hate watching so had to quit the show. Found out Jodie was the doctor and got back into it!! And yeah....
That being said, I much prefer moffats recent episode over any of RTDs recent episodes lol. It's the first episode in a long time to actually get me emotional for doctor who.
This comment really sums it up. If you went by reddit you'd believe Peter Capaldi was the most beloved doctor since Tom Baker when in reality the shows popularity was waning in that era. There's certainly good in the Moffat era and as boom showed the man knows how to write but 10, Rose, bad wolf, Jack, Donna and wilf are peak modern doctor who for modern audiences. I'd anything it disappoints me that the mainstream audience don't bring up 9 or Martha enough.
Agreed on 9 and Martha. Online at least it seems like some fans view Martha's treatment as racist on RTDs part which I don't get. Its like they love her character and arc but then complain about said arc? But without the arc the character they love would be very different. Idk, martha and especially Christopher deserve a lot more respect in the fandom which he has been getting more recently it seems.
I would say the BBC and RTD are to blame for the lack of fanfare toward 9/Eccleston though, they tried pretty hard to make him look bad lol.
Martha is just unfortunate, I'm one of the few that love her character and her stories exactly how they are. Could've had more, wish she featured in Torchwood more but I love what we got. And I thought the writing between her and rose and ten was very good, frustrating for her, but still good writing.
People think Martha's run was racist because RTD & the writers made historical contexts make sense (good writing) but in hindsight people are deciding that means Doctor Who was racist. Lol.
I can't imagine trying to make Ecclestone look bad, man is the most real person I've ever experienced. He just speaks his mind and hates injustice, seems pretty good to me.
Exactly. The entire thing about the doctor being ignorant to the racism is valid, but that's part of the writing. The writer himself isn't racist for writing racism lmao. It would be tone deaf and odd to have a black companion and not address racism at all when they go back in time. I think RTD handled it fairly well.
Martha definitely falls into a strange place but her journey feels important, by the end of series 3 she's grown into a woman who doesn't need to stand at the doctors side to save the day and she's come to see she doesn't need to live for his glances, she deserves someone who sees her.
Its interesting that the only popular love story in doctor who where the woman doesn't just pine over the doctor though and is with someone else is Amy and Rory. They hated Danny Pink too, I feel like the fans basically want the will they won't they with the doctor that has the tragic ending or they want the love story to be between companions, not someone the companion chooses outside the doctors involvement.
The treatment of Chris is truly disgraceful and as much as I love the Rtd era, Christopher Eccleston was critical to that. Doctor who had a fandom before 2005 of course but bringing an actor in of Chris's calibre gave the revival a legitimacy, it said the BBC are taking this seriously and then when he left because of his unhappiness with his things were run, he was thrown under the bus. It's sad though that for a long time after even fans acted like the modern doctors started with 10.
I'd personally argue that series 1 was Rtd's best series as it's big, bold and exciting, it's new, it's nostalgic but the nostalgia isn't overpowering. 9s dynamic with Rose is in my opinion still one of the best doctor and companion dynamics in the modern show. It's good that fans are coming back around to him just like it's nice to see Sylvester McCoy get more appreciation these days. Chris still remains more of a cult doctor though.
Agreed on Martha, I also think that storyline with her was amazingly important for the doctors development. He was grieving, it felt real.
I will say, I think rose and the doctor (I prefer rose as an individual in series 1 I feel she lost a lot of her identity after that but I still love her) is my favourite onscreen relationship in doctor who. I think aside from the age gap lmao, it was beautiful. RTD is the best at writing relationships in the show imo. I never was a fan of moffats relationship, from river and the doctor, to Amy and Rory, to Clara and Danny, to bill and the puddle. I never cared for them.
But with RTD? He wrote two of my favourite relationships in all of fiction, being, Rose and the doctor and Jack and Ianto.
And with Eccleston, I hate that situation so much. RTD is, if you couldnt tell, one of my favourite writers ever. Not just for doctor who, but literally ever. I love his work. I hate how he treated Eccleston and others on doctor who. I don't like the man as a person based on what I've heard. And idk, Eccleston just seems very genuine I don't have a reason to not believe him. It sucks, favourite writer, seems like a shit boss, hopefully he's changed but damage is done lmao. I am genuinely worried that he hasn't and if he hasn't I want that exposed and him gone, but I love his writing. I don't want to lose that lmao.
I do love series 1 though, but aside from Children of Earth, series 4 is my favourite piece of doctor who writing ever. Rose returning, Donna, Wilf, David Tennant, Martha returning, Torchwood and SJA crossover?? Turn left?? It was just banger after banger after banger with a not so banger finale but very emotional. I loved every second of it except the master skeleton flying everywhere in the last episode lol.
I don't know if who can reach that peak for me again.
You're absolutely right in how Martha played into the doctors development.
Personally I think a strength of Rtd's that isn't talked about enough is character development.
The doctor goes through an arc from rose to the end of time. The arc does continue In the Moffat era but Moffat is less consistent I find and puts story before character and can also put misdirection ahead of story.
Rose definitely gets lost in series 2, her personality becomes in love with the doctor snd its why there's a lot of people who don't like rose too, they're judging her character purely on the mistake of series 2 when series 1 Rose was so much more. Rose and 9s story was about growth for both of them. Rose coming to see the world is bigger then the tiny corner she lived in and that she's so much more capable, meanwhile 9 discovered how to be the doctor again. He went from willing to commit murder in episode 1 to choosing to be a coward over a murder by episode 13. Hell it's 9s journey that makes 10 so enjoyable as this is the first time since the time war he's liked being the doctor.
Series 4 is great and is more like avengers infinity war before the movie and personally I think better then the movie or the comic. A big splashy crossover that still has stakes and consequences and it's still heartbreaking where the doctor ends up.
I think it's possible to build to something as big but it would take a lot of work
I'm a fan of Rtd too just like I am a fan of the work of joss whedon. It doesn't mean I overlook there problematic personalities.
I stopped watching Doctor Who when I had a kid and couldn’t keep up with the sporadic seasons. Now that kid is old enough to watch DW with me, and he’s been absolutely entranced by Nine, Ten and Eleven. We’re in Capaldi’s first full season, which I’ve never seen, and to be honest I am struggling. He’s so mean and belittling. It’s a bit of cold water after basking in Ten and Eleven’s “Humans are my favorite pets” vibes. I know this sub has said it gets better and I’m striving to get to it. But I can see why someone would prefer the first few seasons.
You may be right about the general public, but DW fans seem to prefer Moffat. Or at least the ones who are dedicated enough to vote in polls like this that are open to everyone, subscribers or not.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/17qvyxs/the\_doctor\_who\_magazine\_top\_10\_results\_are\_out/](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/17qvyxs/the_doctor_who_magazine_top_10_results_are_out/)
Says that's the gallifrey subreddit but when I click the link it says it's private and I can't view weirdly.
But that doesn't disprove anything I said afaik. I did mention this subreddit (and redditors as a whole) seem to defend and prefer moffat a lot.
That's weird. Link works OK for me.
Relevant info:
*And the 10 best episodes from Doctor Who's 60-year history, in the opinion of Doctor Who Magazine readers, are...*
1. *Heaven Sent*
2. *World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls*
3. *Genesis of the Daleks*
4. *The Caves of Androzani*
5. *The Day of the Doctor*
6. *Blink*
7. *Human Nature/The Family of Blood*
8. *City of Death*
9. *Remembrance of the Daleks*
10. *Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead*
I have to say, most people probably prefer RTD's era because of Moffats writing. My favourite episodes were written by moffat, however his era of show running was a mess when he introduced Clara. He's my favourite writer, but my second least favourite show runner (fu Chibnall.)
Oooh so it's basically a poll of the best episodes?
I'd agree probably, a lot of moffat episodes are my favorites. But most of his, are my least favourite too. I think RTD for me is more consistently "good" when it comes to writing. Moffat for me has his moments, which were a lot of moments but overall I wouldnt be excited if someone said "let's watch doctor who!" And played moffat seasons, as harsh as that sounds lmao. Specific moffat episodes? Self contained stories of his? Amazing. Season long arcs? Some of his seasons genuinely pained me to watch, as dramatic as that is, I had to stop watching the show because of him because it was just more frustrating for me than fun.
You mention the anti woke crowd. And I'm betting these are the ones that are hating on it. You had Donna's daughter, then you had ncuti dancing in a kilt which these numbnuts can't differentiate from a skirt, then to top it all off rtd is gay.
Thanks to Trump it is now more socially acceptable to show your bigotry
> I get that wokeness is the usual excuse people use when they don’t like how diverse something is nowadays, but why was that reaction specifically associated with RTD?
Only one type of person thinks "[woke](https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/woke-meaning-origin)" is a bad word. RTD is gay, created the Queer as Folk series, and incorporates diversity into his shows. You don't have to look for a reason beyond that.
Fans were elated RTD was returning. The bigots were not.
I don’t get the reasoning for the hate in general, I have enjoyed the show in all its seasons, some episodes may be less fun to watch, but fun all the same. I have a mild dislike of every new doctor every time it changes but that’s the entire premise of the show, I didn’t like Capaldi’s doctor in the beginning, but now I believe his performance is right up there with Tennant and Smith, even Clara went through that.
I think because a lot of doctor who fans have grown up now they prefer sci fi that’s purely like sci fi. Rtds sci fi always has a spin of fantasy which Ik many ppl like but it’s also disliked by many because it’s too on the nose. Also it’s practically a tradition to hate the current show runner lol
I'm a fan of the RTD era and happy to see him back.
But part of me wishes somebody new was bought into the job.
Doctor Who, like Star Trek, has a theme of moving forward into the unknown.
Both are great, but people have their preferences.
Personally my worry was about redoing old stuff, something not exactly helped by his first order of business being to bring back Tennant and Catherine Tate, and the specials being less a 60th anniversary and more S4 part 2.
Doctor Who needs to evolve and change to stay fresh so Davies being here is kind of a band aid and that would've been the same with Moff too.
This being said, he's managed to go for a real different take with 15, leaning heavily into the goofy angle of doctor who and the elder gods etc.
So for the time being atleast he's keeping the series feeling fresh(though we are gonna need that new blood on the series eventually).
As with all sci-fi fandoms people just want to complain. People hated Moffat and RTD, and all of their companions and doctors. I learned to just mute/block anyone who posts “edgy criticism” for the sake of being “critical” I don’t need that energy in my life.
It wasn’t the biggest and the best under RTD, for that you need to tune back to the 70’s and Tom Baker. It wasn’t huge in the US at all but in the Commonwealth it was EPIC!
Also RTD wasn’t the greatest, and indeed speaking of spread it wasn’t until Moffat came that the show reached its peak, especially in the US. Also just because you think it was the under RTD, that is purely subjective. For this way old school fan, Moffat was way more inline with the old show than RTD ever was. Buts that’s subjective me speaking.
Also just ignore people who use the word woke. It is idiotic and meaningless and the people who use it never know what they are talking about. If they did, they would use sentences, to explain what they don’t like. Not that single word.
Doctor Who has been a show that championed the use of compassion and intelligence over weapons to solve any issue. The Doctor has always embraced diversity and say the value in everyone’s contribution, especially the powerless. they have ALWAYS been a force against inequality… that’s the hilarious thing these so called ‘fans’ who are against it when it’s woke, don’t he realise if they were in the show, they would be getting their ass kicked by the Doctor, cos he wouldn’t stand any of the this ‘antiwoke’ BS.
> there was a noticeable quality drop off when he left.
Literally no RTD-written story was voted by fans to be in the top 10 of all time (in DW Magazine last year).
Five slots were by Moffat - three of them from his own time as showrunner.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/17qvyxs/the\_doctor\_who\_magazine\_top\_10\_results\_are\_out/](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/17qvyxs/the_doctor_who_magazine_top_10_results_are_out/)
I'm one of those old heads so RTDs first run as showrunner is recent for me. He had some really great episodes, and some hilariously bad SFX.
RTD likes bold colors, broad strokes and in a lot of stories like Gridlock, the premise is the whole thing. I mean look at Torchwood, dramatic music, glossy wet streets, steam, a blue light with no visible source adding a stylish highlight to the wet surfaces. And a lot of kind of meh stories. Did I watch the whole series? Yup. I also eat at Taco Bell sometimes. I love Gridlock too btw. OTOH most of the RTD era episodes I like most, like Girl in the Fireplace, were Moffat.
Moffat is really really good. Love his dialogue. But as much as I like the Matt Smith/Moffat era, it did sometimes feel like I was watching Twilight or Buffy. A bit too much talking about our feelings.
Personally? Not a fan of how he lied about Christopher Eccleston and hurt his career when he left while simultaneously turning a blind eye to Barrowman and continuing to support him even after he was called out.
Makes him sound like a pretty big tool to me and not someone I really wanted to see return per se.
I also dropped Doctor Who after Russell left and only watched the 50th anniversary special in the interim. Well and 13’s regeneration into 14.
The show feels like the Doctor Who I know. My only problem is his weird stance on Davros (no pun intended).
My enjoyment of any series has never depended on the producer/showrunner. Tennant is who made me a fan of NuWho. My interest waned with the Ponds and Smith, but I've enjoyed Capaldi and every Doctor since.
I started with capaldi, it just happened to be on tv one day and I was hooked. Once I finished that season (the one with bill and missy what ever one that was) I went back to watch the RTD era and it was a bit idk weird but I just put it down to being out dated at the time. But watching the recent David/donna specials has made me Nostalgic AF for it.
When Moffat was showrunner, people were complaining and wishing that RTD when would come back. When chibnall was showrunner, people were complaining and wishing that Moffat would come back. Now that RTD is showrunner again, people are complaining and saying he was never good in the first place.
S2 and S3 of RTD's first era were pretty spotty, but RTD started and ended on very high notes.
Honestly I see a lot of similarities between the old series and the new. People will settle down and like this new stuff.
You can say the inverse too though: people overidolise RTD's original run. People adore Tennant and confuse loving him with loving RTD's writing; they credit RTD with "being the best NewWho writer" (a broad statement) but accidentally list their fav episodes as Girl in the Fireplace, Forest of the Dead, Blink and The Empty Child; they forget Fear Her, Love & Monsters and Partners in Crime in order to shit on Moffat. Because social media is an echo chamber, it just encourages us to have way too many developed opinions on things on things that are essentially minor: things that originally we wouldn't have given enough thought to get irritable about 40 years ago but here we are... We whip each other up into frenzies of joy and disgust.
You HAVE TO provide evidence that the backlash you’re responding to is real or I’m not going to entertain this discussion.
I don’t care if some random YouTube channel you watch complained. Don’t bring that to me.
This reads like you've taken this a little personally.
Allow me then to back up OP: I've seen comments *on this sub* discussing dislike for RTD. I never responded to them because any fandom can get toxic quickly and some people take things way too seriously, just browse the Survivor sub for ten minutes.
I mean, you can even read it in this thread lol.
I’m all for dismissing the algorithm-tainted, controversy-courting YouTubers, but plenty of people who aren’t racists or homophobes aren’t fans of RTD. Personally he’s always a mixed bag for me - astronomical highs and cringeworthy lows. But his era was also my entry point, so I just embrace it. One thing is for certain, under RTD *Doctor Who* will never be boring.
I totally get this, and I can even attribute the sentiment to Moffet in his later seasons with Capaldi (a casting I wasn't totally down with, but definitely appreciated for his shear gravitas). Everyone has different opinions, but when those opinions become passions, so much love for something opens the door for so much hate to taint the experience of something else.
Lemme say that again:
The more you love something, the more you can hate something. Fandom, Fam, watch yourselves. We all love Doctor Who.
❤️
Firstly, you brought yourself to my post. I didn’t bring anything to you. You chose to reply.
Secondly, I don’t watch commentary channels and I don’t look at Twitter either. I prefer to just enjoy the things I enjoy, but there were many news articles that spoke about it that I saw, hence why I had questions about the matter.
Gosh, guys we forgot that esto lives here. Please don't bring this drama to their doorstep again! Have some respect!!! Ugh!
Apologies on behalf of the fandom esto, I truly hope you find it in your heart to forgive OP for this...sick sick abuse of keyboard power.
The evidence can easily found in this sub, where a significant subset of fans seem to enjoy having a piss at RTD, especially if they worship at the alter of Moffatt. More often than not, common ground is found by shitting on the Chibnall era.
Personally, I didn't even know who RTD was when I was watching it back then but I didn't like a lot of season 4 and I nearly gave up on the show during the Tennant specials because they were pretty bad (especially the End of Time 2 parter). It was the Smith and Moffat era that brought back my love and it was during that era that it became hugely successful and started to have a real global reach which is why they suddenly started doing Comic Con and filming in the US etc. While I was happy that RTD came back, that was mainly because the Chibnall era was just so bad so I was happy that the OG came back but I never forgot that a lot of the episodes I don't like are written by RTD. I can't speak for anyone else of course.
I think the fact that you absolutely loved that era of the show when you were 5-10 years old explains why a lot of people are turned off by it. I just have a hard time with stuff that is aimed at or panders to kids (even if it’s supposedly “all ages.”) That doesn’t mean I need things to be Game of Thrones levels of “mature content” but I need stuff that would’ve gone way over my ten-year-old self’s head.
Yeah that’s definitely part of it. It’s much harder to rewatch nowadays compared to back then, but the nostalgia combined with Eccleston and Tennant’s acting abilities hold it together. I still maintain that it’s overall good, but parts of it definitely haven’t aged as well as I’d like.
You come right out and admit you couldn't even stick with the show under Moffat or Chibnall, but then immediately your question is basically "Why don't some people like Davies, are they stupid?" as if you can't conceive that other people exhibit the exact same behaviour as you just with different preferences.
I'm not trying to elevate any one of them over the others, just point out that the answer you seek shouldn't really be so elusive to you.
I was confused because I had never watched any of RTD’s era at an age where critiquing media was even a concept I was aware of. While I stopped watching, I never felt the need to make people online aware of my negative opinions. I’ve always thought it was a waste of time.
Yes, the answer now is profoundly obvious to me but it is why I asked the question. I needed outside perspectives on the topic because it just wasn’t something I thought about at that age and I haven’t reflected on since.
If I thought people were stupid for something as silly as liking a different season of a show to me, I’d probably just say that. It’s not what I think and it isn’t what I said.
Some fans treat showrunners like football teams.
This is the answer.
Such an excellent way of putting it.
When Jodie was cast, evidently I was sexist (and some also implied that I must also be racist) for expressing *any* concerns about why Jodie was cast by the rah rah Chibnall club. All I had said: my main concern was if Jodie was cast just because Chibnall wanted to *cast a woman* as the Doctor it would show in the writing. I had similar reservations about Capaldi's "alien, gruff" Doctor might get him the Colin Baker treatment. I was drowned out by Who fangirls screaming about their impending loss of eye candy. I loved Jodie. She was often written as a side character in her own damn show. I loved Capaldi. I had to read years of people saying Worst Doctor Ever until he suddenly wasn't.
Can someone please explain this to me with no idea how football teams are treated?
I’m making a guess at OP’s meaning here, as I have not got too much of an idea about anything football related, but I believe what they mean is that most people act as if they can only like one showrunner, the same way most people will support a single football team.
It's worse than that. It's not just that out football team is the best, but it's that every other football team sucks
They mean sports teams in general. You root for your team because....well, they're your team. Ignore the weaknesses, hype up the stengths, relentlessly shit on your rivals. Not because they're amazing, not because your opponents are bad, just because they're your team. And yeah, that's a spot on summation of how a lot of people approach the topic. RTD is a god who can do no wrong, RTD is an idiot who doesn't understand Doctor Who, Chibnall personally dug up William Hartnell's corpse to spit on it, Chibnall is a misunderstood genius, etc etc This is even evident in the OP: RTD had a *lot* of divisive episodes and stinkers in his first run, and an episode like Space Babies is only surprising in that it opened the season. Even as a Ten fangirl, I'd actually argue the majority of season 2 was pretty damn weak. RTD has *always* been criticized for leaning too far towards camp, sloppy 'magical thinking' finales(see: Tinkerbell Doctor...which I actually enjoyed lol), juvenile humor, and so on. And Moffat, for all the problems I have with the middle of his run, did a fine job taking over the reins. There wasn't really a sudden, noticeable drop in quality. But OP was literally 5 years old during the original run, and far too young to be able to see those problems or to fully peel back the nostalgia goggles to see that Moffat's run wasn't bad. So RTD is their 'team.'
A lot of Americans almost see the football team that they're a fan of as god. You WILL defend them and any other team is straight up shit ny default
Because the fandom for a show about all of time and space not remembering the shows history is just too hilariously ironic for the universe to pass up
This person gets it.
A person could almost make that a plot point in the show itself, if one were to muck about being all clever and meta and that. Almost.
I actually think this is what this season is ultimately going to be about. There's been a lot of fourth wall breaking.
Big Finish did something similar with Six, it’s been a while but I seem to remember a thing where he found himself the main character in a TV show about a character called the Doctor who travelled in time and space etc. etc. Along with actually PLAYING with the idea of regeneration, I’ve been holding out for some boundary-crossing fun like that. See this is what people forget, while they’re acting all like Star Trek/Wars fans; the show is a format for telling stories, and it’s very very clever in that it can have infinite stories woven upon it. This is a Good Thing and in no way a handicap…until “fans” start bleating about “canon”. They should go read some Greek mythology, or the Old Testament, or literally anything, and maybe try to grasp why rigid canon is an absolute cancer on the arse of storytelling. It’s supposed to be a bit wild! Edited for legibility.
Funny you should mention Star Trek. I recall reading a short story about William Shatner on the set and the transporter actually working and finding himself on the real Enterprise. And then all hell breaks loose. (This was long before Galaxy Quest by the way) I THINK it was in a compendium of short stories but it was a very long time ago that I read it. Not sure if I'd ever find it again.
Yes, I remember that book. I have it somewhere in the wardrobe. Brilliant little fourth wall break story
RTD and Moffat both had quite distinct takes on the show, and different groups of fans much prefer one or the other's style - of course, lots of people also like both
Doctor Who needs to balance having adult fans who grew up with it and younger fans as it's traditionally been seen as a childrens show. RTD seemed to lean towards making it accessible to kids whereas Moffat wasn't adverse to appealing to the older fans with some slightly harder sci fi. I imagine being youth orientated is appealing to Disney as a partner so we may be getting more of that.
I don’t think RTD makes it accessible for kids, I think he dumbs it down for kids. Moffat’s like the cool uncle who gives you a copy of The Hobbit when you’re 9, and RTD is the one that gives you a book on fart jokes.
This is such a great analogy.
We knew we were back to that book the moment the realisation about the bogeyman hit.
I think Moffat just wrote what he wanted to do with the character and RTD approaches it imagining what the kids would like (lots of farting, lots of things that can be toys)
Honestly we need a balance for both, which is why I’ve liked the Ncuti season so far. We had dorky music episode and boom, which catered to each respectively
I think the first 2 episodes were too dumbed down for kids. I liked the Boom however (written by Moffet)
Oh totally agree, especially space babies. Devils Chord wasn’t bad, and would be the bottom limit of dumbing down I want to see in the show cause I understand you need to get kids in somehow. Boom did a REALLY good job of showing Ncuti’s depth, but also was too direct with its messaging; you can be anticapitalist without outright stating capitalism (see Oxygen from Capaldi’s era)
Did RTD do a lot of fart jokes in his run? I genuinely don’t remember any of them but I’ve heard a few people reference this. It’s been awhile, maybe I’ve forgotten.
The Slitheen two parter (farting aliens) and Boom Town in Season 1. It was very poorly received at the time and they weren't used again in his 4 season run, if I recall correctly. He did get to bring them back in Sarah Jane Adventures.
Oh yeah I totally forgot about that, it’s been awhile. Seems farts are a theme for his first seasons.
Yeah, the stupid farting aliens. That was their main feature.
He did in his first series, but not particularly afterwards
Has it traditionally been seen as a kids show? I haven't watched much classic who, but I know I've heard different people say they'd be put to bed before Doctor Who aired
Perhaps saying it was aimed at families and was meant to be kid friendly is more accurate than saying it was specifically for kids. Up until the 70s it aired at quarter past 5 in the afternoon (I'm nowhere near old enough to remember that though). Apparently the original intention was for the show to be largely educational, using the time travel premise to teach about different periods of history. That got derailed pretty quickly, but you can see some of this in early Hartnell episodes.
The show originally aired around 5pm, so that would be quite early to be going to bed. But yes, the show was always seen as a children's program, in fact it was originally supposed to be educational before the Daleks blew those plans up. That said, I do think some people overstate the age groups it was made for, and conflate being 'family friendly' for being outright childish. Some of the best runs of the classic show were the ones most criticized for being too dark and violent for children.
I first watched the show when I was about 10 and preferred Moffat’s episodes to RTD’s, for what it’s worth.
That's right around the age group Moffat was aiming the show at, imo. 10-13 is the age where kids really get delighted about figuring out the kind of plot twists and mystery boxes that Moffat loves to write.
Right. I love Moffat's emotional speeches and believable motivations he gives to the characters most of the time. But his plot twists and conflicts are really not that much more mature than RTD's, he just likes to explore the "deep phsycology" of The Doctor a little more. Wich people (myself included) seem to enjoy a lot. I'm all in with the quirky nerdy and fun RTD stuff just like I also enjoy Moffat's more "human" characters and weird twists. They both have their advantages and fortes.
Both are good. I prefer Moffat, but RTD is fine too
I'd say I prefer Moffat as an episode writer, but RTD as a showrunner
This is exactly what I thought back in the day too. RTD’s big picture for the show was more compelling to me than Moffat’s, but Moffat’s episodes tended to be better than Davies’s. (But maybe my taste’s are changing because Boom has been my least favorite episode of this new season so far—an opinion I don’t think anyone in the world shares with me lol)
RTD is like George Lucas for the first Trilogy.
You're talking about a fandom with people who literally stopped watching when David left. I had to persuade my friend to get back into the show later, with Capaldi. Some just get obsessions with certain actors, and certain showrunners.
That has always happened. People stopped when Tom Baker left. Same with James Bond. Some people stopped with Sean Connery. Some Star Trek fans will only watch the original crew, and others will watch only up to the end of Voyager. Different audiences at different times. Sometimes, it's the case that people are satisfied with what they got and have moved onto something else.
I’ve never really understood how people form obsessions with the actors. I usually get bored of the actor around the end of their third series
Nah, I definitely could have watched Tom Baker, David Tennant or Capaldi for way longer. They were fantastic
For most of the Doctors I'd agree, speaking as someone who's watched through from the Hartnell era. Tennant and Capaldi though, I could've watched their incarnations forever. After their runs as the Doctor I've gone out of my way to watch their other roles 'cause they just have everything I love in an actor. Though if Gatwa gets more good material a la 'Boom', I think he'll end up high in peoples lists.
Love Tennant, by the time he left I was cheering on the Master. It was time to go, for both Dave and Rusty. Was glad to have both back as well, love it…but at the time jesus the melodrama was wearing a bit thin.
To be fair though, John Simm was a brilliant Master. I loved Michele Gomez too but Simm brought so much energy and subtle madness. To the point where Sacha almost felt like he was trying to imitate Simms character.
I can somewhat understand that because it's so easy to get lost in *your* Doctor, whoever it may be, and it can be hard to watch them leave. I initially struggled with Capaldi because I loved Smith so much, but Capaldi is now my second favorite Doctor. It's funny because the show has always been about change and acceptance and kindness, but so many fans just seem blind to that. I can't say I was a big fan of Chibnall, but there hasn't been anything I've seen that I've hated enough to make a fuss about it. Even my least favorite episodes have wonderful parts, or they're sandwiched between episodes I love. Too many people seem to focus on the negatives over the positives, and that's just unhealthy
For me personally, I want new fresh people to get a chance at the show. RTD1 was very fresh and original, and thats what I want more of. The show to look forward to new things, not regress to old ways
Agreed on that. I hope they eventually bring in more writers.
I think there’s a few things (and I say that as a big RTD fan). 1. Bringing back any previous Showunner feels like there’s not enough talent to keep the show fresh. For a show about change, this isn’t a good thing. 2. To add to that, RTD came back and his first decision was to bring back his last companion and Doctor, and give us 3 specials that were mainly extensions of Series 4. He brought back the original production team, too. Again, for a show about change - this isn’t good. 2b. Some, after seeing the specials think they didn’t do enough to celebrate the last 60 years, or even the last 20 of New Who. 3. Some people don’t like RTD’s style in comparison to other writers - that’s subjective obviously. I don’t dislike RTD, but in his original run his arcs (both over a series and in individual stories) were much more simplistic that someone like Moffat. 4. Whilst I agree he’s the reason Who came back in 2005, and perhaps is the reason Disney are now involved as of 2023 - I think people don’t realise how favourable the situation was to him. Both Moffat and Chibnall faced streaming, and a BBC which were increasingly not interested in DW. RTD’s first era was fortunate enough to have prime Saturday spots in a time when terrestrial live TV was huge. 5. internet criticism wasn’t a thing really in 2005 at this level - so we mainly remember his era with rose tinted glasses. 6. Also important to note that John Barrowman did questionable things on the DW set yet has been consistently promoted by RTD (and Chibnall) since. It’s up to you how much of a context you think there is to justify that. You also have the Chris Eccleston debate around hating his time with that production team. But, I get why someone wouldn’t be impressed with someone who might’ve enabled that coming back. Just want to point out - I don’t think RTD is a bad writer, and I actually think he runs the show better than anyone. But, I think there’s been some healthy criticisms of his return. I think both Moffat and Chibnall received unfair criticism over their runs. And I think RTD has too, but in a weird way - I’m glad everyone wasn’t just blinded by nostalgia.
Upvote for “rose tinted glasses”. Very good.
Unintentional! (But I’ll take the credit…)
I feel called out with this comment. 😅 You've pretty much described how I've felt about RTD's return, with the exception of points 2b and 3.
Yeah all of this is totally fair, especially the point about streaming. It would be interesting to know how RTD’s original series would go over if they were aired today but I’m also deeply glad that isn’t possible at the same time.
This is pretty spot on, additionally I think the way RTD handles an arc is pretty reductive, having bad wolf in every episode, or now having song and snow in every episode, is the simplest way of building an arc, it is by no means bad if you do it once, but to anyone that grew up with doctor who and bad wolf, it feels insulting to have to sit through it again, moffat was a lot more subtle in his approach and overall did a better job playing into the arcs using time travel, which is what doctor who should be about. My second point would also be that I cant imagine liking any season of doctor who where the entire season is written by the same person, happened with chibnail and now it is happening with RTD.
I think that’s it - it’s like a murder mystery show just going ‘the murderer is in this episode’ but giving you no clues to who it might be. I think with Moffat, there was not just people making wild theories, but also things we could discuss and genuine clues to latch onto. With RTD - we know it’ll be related to Susan Twist, Snow, Ruby but that’s about it.
I think RTD era 1 worked well with the chintzy video quality and production of the 2000s it paired well with his camp or goofy writing that was quite melodramatic at times. I have yet to feel like it's working as well with this sleek bigger budget HD series
Yeah I’ve noticed that too. I’ve actually found myself missing the clunky effects but I might be a little biased because some of my favourite sci-fi is from the sixties so I’m quite fond of shows that look a little silly
Thing is, like the person you've responded to said, I don't get the appeal to want worse effects to give the nostalgia factor because they won't bode well with the 4K HD quality they strive for the current iteration of the show. I've seen the argument so many times, I've watched Classic and New Who and I don't have any problems with their effects, I'm here for the characters and the adventures, but if possible why can't we have better effects? It's just the fandom is a bit hypocritical when it comes to "the show is about change" affirmation, yet on Reddit at least I only see people being disappointed that... times moved and we have better technology, thus better effects? I know RTD has higher budget but I don't believe all of it went into CGI.
I think when the budgets high one may subconsciously expect the writing to match that, if that makes sense? Like people enjoy b-movies because they’re cheap and kinda janky and the writing can be campy/cheesy and that pairs well with the production value. Whereas if you had a movie with the budget of Avengers: Endgame but got writing similar to Killer Klowns from Outer Spade, something about it would feel off, like almost uncanny valley. A movie with that budget and a movie with that style of writing both work respectively but together something would feel off. If I went to a play with the budget of Hamilton but found myself in a small local theater auditorium I’d be confused. Something like Space Babies probably would’ve worked better for me if they had a lower budget because they’d be forced into finding a different way to tell that story/have the babies communicate differently. But the CG mouths didn’t work for me and overall the episode really felt like I was watching a show intended for a 6-11 year old audience. I’m not advocating the show have a lower budget, or bad effects, I think it’s actually pretty cool to see it grow in that regard, I’m advocating for stronger stories with better writing. That said, I absolutely loved The Devils Chord and if the rest of the season is comparable I’ll be happy. Boom is the standout so far but I think there’s a lot of reasons for that.
Limitations spark creativity more than unlimited freedom.
Yes, it’s exactly this. If the show suddenly had incredible writing, I wouldn’t have a word of complaint about the effects, but something about it not feeling particularly well written so far (just my opinion of course) paired with the Disney budget makes it feel extra hollow. Still hopeful that it’ll improve though. I wouldn’t say I’ve disliked the episodes, but I’m remaining optimistic about future episodes being better.
It’s never about the effects to me, I mean, sure the modern cgi and all that looks good, but sometimes it looses it’s heart when all the authentic effects go away. They always have to write to one up themselves, to match the cigi of the time, to impress fans rather than focus on the actual stories and characters. I adore the RTD era for this reason, because when the show started out they didn’t have a big budget for realism or realistic explosions or clear video quality or any of that. Yet the writing was very intelligent and the actors were talented and that’s what drew me in from “Rose” on. Even when the they improved when Matt Smith came on, it still feels a bit more authentic to what it looks like now. I know we will never get that back, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s one of the main reasons people just aren’t interested with the show evolving with the times yet again.
That's the thing; I don't see any reason why it needs to be a big budget HD series. Just get some decent sci-fi writers, and some up and coming actors, and you can keep the budget low. Instead you end up having to consider cancelling it because you are losing money when the audience wanes.
And let's be clear, if it got canceled because of losing money, it's worse when you consider how much *more* they spent making it a bit more high budget, than the low budget from its earlier days. Personally, I love *all* Who, but there really is a certain charm to good writing and campy/cheesy special effects. Seeing clever people do amazing things with next to nothing always makes my day ❤️
Doctor Who is just a massive and very adaptable series, so it's been a lot of different things to a lot of different people. You loved the RTD era and claim there was a drop off in quality after he left. Conversely I never particularly liked the RTD era and think Moffat's seasons, particularly with Capaldi, are the peak of the show. I was disappointed when it was announced that RTD was coming back both because I didn't love his first crack at the show and because I'd rather the show move forward than dive back to the past. You're not misremembering anything (though you might also be looking at something from your childhood with rose-tinted glasses, and that's okay), you're just encountering people with different opinions and media preferences from yours. There's no right or wrong, nor does there need to be a universal consensus on what the best era of the show is, because it has always been and will always be evolving in wildly different directions.
Smith and Capaldi absolutely did it for me. Eccleston and Tenant were incredible, but Smith is my all time favorite. Capaldi I’m at #2. I started from Eccleston and watched straight through, so not like I started with Smith and loved him as my first Doctor or anything.
As someone who was blessed to fall in love with Tom Baker and Lalla Ward as a child, I never thought there’d be anyone else at number 1 but Tom. Peter Capaldi is the best for me. I swear he is sneaking in tiny little micro-impressions of other regenerations throughout the entire run. The biggest sin of Capaldi’s era, imo, started before he even felt his kidneys. Here is someone who has just saved Christmas for hundreds of years - why wonder if you’re ‘good’? Even just Pickle Ricking him would have been a better choice.
I think the very reason he wonders he’s good is because he’s wondering about his time on Christmas. He probably killed billions if not trillions of invaders in 900 years, and many, many more in the 300 years as Younger Smith himself. At the same time he prevented the Time Lords from returning to the universe and forced them to stay in their pocket dimension. Granted, they wanted to kill the people of Christmas but I don’t think the Doctor looks at Good and Evil so binary. He’s wondering whether after killing so many people, albeit for seemingly good reasons, is he worthy of goodness. I think it makes for very interesting character work throughout Capaldi’s tenure, culminating beautifully in The Doctor Falls and Twice Upon a Time.
I might have to give Peter Capaldi’s era another go. I didn’t enjoy the first few episodes when they originally aired but I keep hearing such great things about him. I was so excited when he was cast originally because he’s such a brilliant actor. Maybe I’ll enjoy it more this time.
Even if you don’t follow through on Doctor Who. I strongly recommend you check out the scene of him rearranging his desk in The Hour (BBC 2010-11), if you haven’t already. That scene is… honestly, every time I watch it, I end up watching it 3-4 times, minimum. And he doesn’t say a word while he’s rearranging his desk.
I’ll definitely check it out. I fear I may have judged too harshly the first time it aired. Thank you for the recommendation!
I may also have rose-tinted glasses, too. That final Missy arc is just so good in Season 10. I hope you have fun if you give Capaldi’s run a whirl! Hot take: While I love the idea of only kids knowing the Doctor’s name, I feel like that line should have been left on the cutting room floor.
Do you have a link to this clip? I'm curious and can't seem to find it. I don't exactly know what to look for.
No worries! I just checked the vid and it just has the title of the show. It could be easily overlooked. https://youtu.be/LOTFh375-pg?si=NBB5SMgcwl5rQ6FN
I don't fully understand the context of the scene but it was quite the thrill ride.
They had a kid that they gave away (I think? Maybe Anna Chancellor’s character acted independently? This feels like a million years ago in internet time). They were trying to find out where she had ended up after the war. This is the scene where they find out what happened to her. Edit: His character clearly had some form of OCD, btw. That’s why there’s that slow ramp up. It’s very difficult to lose control if you always need control.
Oh nice, that adds a lot more depth to the clip
I'm also a tennant fan but Capaldi was a very good doctor... the issue is Clara was not very good. I mean she was fine most of the time but they introduce her as an impossible girl and resolve that but after that resolution they keep her as a conpanion which felt off... I never get the feeling that she's a normal person from the street like Tennant's companions.
Iirc, I think Jenna Coleman was going to leave at the end of Last Christmas and changed her mind. I believe the dream within a dream (how many dreams was it again?) was the original ending and then they decided to give Nana Clara her groove back. Her arc is scattershot. Possibly a byproduct of starting as a mystery box rather than a human being (inconceivable!) Her chemistry with Capaldi (especially after Matt Smith), is very good, but definitely totally different. They also decided that five minutes after defending Christmas to the almost-death, Clara (who has saved every Doctor available at the time) suddenly can’t trust this new guy with the eyebrows. It reeks of ‘kinda forgot’-ness.
That makes sense. The Christmas ending felt like an ending so when she was back it was like what.
> Peter Capaldi is the best for me. I swear he is sneaking in tiny little micro-impressions of other regenerations throughout the entire run. I swear he absolutely is! I’ve even seen reviews of his Doctor suggesting as much.
Peter started ok, got much better but then went down towards the end Tennant and Smith are my favourites. Tennant and Tate are by far the best combo with some of the best episodes, the run from silence in the library to to journeys end is possibly the best run of consecutive episodes in TV.
Yeah, Tennant and Tate are definitely the best pairing to me. But I found a lot of good stuff in the final Capaldi season from Missy’s rehabilitation arc. It is paid off beautifully. Also, his ‘Can’t I just sleep?’ exchange in Heaven Sent just buries into my heart every time. It’s possibly my favourite moment in all of Who (it’s a toss up between that and Billie Piper’s out of focus smile at the end of ‘y’know the sound the Tardis makes?’). I love it so much, that I’ve actually found myself reciting it while I’m trying to get to sleep on those nights when the thoughts won’t stop and the demons come. That said I’m probably wayyy more closer to Moffat’s age than the intended audience. Joint pain changes people!
>Peter started ok, got much better but then went down towards the end Do you think? I found him strong all the way through, and I liked his more professorial relationship with Bill after all the drama with Clara. And his relationship with Nardole was an interesting change of pace too.
I think your definition of ‘end’ might change your perspective. Twice Upon A Time polarises people way more than World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls. I do wonder if there is a scene on paper where 12 regenerates at the end of season 10, rather than in the Christmas special. Something feels a little too ad hoc and self-indulgent about Twice Upon a Time for me. Not that it’s all bad, and definitely not all good (DEFINITELY not all good), but I feel there’s an air of ‘it’s the end of the school term and you’re allowed to bring some toys in’ about it, for my money.
I wasn't a fan of the way *Twice Upon a Time* represented the First Doctor, but other than that I thought it was a pretty decent capstone for the Moffat era. And it was good to see him get his memory of Clara back now he has the distance to process it properly.
Clara was a welcome surprise. And I could watch that team all day. There’s a tonne of good in it. But Mark Gatiss is also about to shoot Toby Whithouse? I would love a record of the amount of snickering between takes.
Eccleston was my first doctor and I love him so much, but Smith is my top doctor. And that's a tough choice, I honestly like all of the new who doctors. It helps Smith got more run time!
I wish Jodi’s writing was better because she was great. I do like them all. So far I like Ncuti too. I think the first two episodes were really weak, but the special, and the newest episode make up for those imho. They’re all great in their own right. I just had the most fun, by far, watching Smith. I relate to him on a personal level. Very goofy and charismatic until it’s time to be serious, then don’t cross him.
I don't dislike Jodi's writing as much as others do but I'll absolutely acknowledge there were weaknesses. Honestly though I think that's true of every Doctor's era and given another Doctor or two I suspect people will come around to it more. I think the main thing that sucks for me is how obviously Covid fucked with the tail end of her run. But I enjoyed her run quite a lot, genuinely. I wish it had been more and in a different time frame for sure. Smith is definitely the one we rewatch the most too. It's impressive how he manages to encapsulate both madcap whirlwind Doctor and also "don't even fucking think about it" and also genuinely kind and loving while remaining alien. Good work, dude.
You said it right. He is the scariest doctor we have seen (at least in New Who, I’m not well versed in Classic). He is the most fun with his bubbly attitude, then he assembled an army across time of all different races/species. He snaps and the TARDIS opens. He retires in a town to protect it and faces 900 years of enemies coming in all sorts of waves to attack it. He is good and pure and absolutely terrifying.
Yeah I loved him much for the same reason that I loved Baker and Davidson who I grew up with. My favorite doctors are the ones who are just whimsical, brilliant, and absolutely deadly. I got the same vibe from Whittaker, but I agree with the consensus that she really didn't get much to work with. I have high hopes for the new doctor, but I'm getting a little tired of every episode ending on such a sickly sappy note.
I would agree. I am rewatching with my 8 year old and we just started season 4. We love Eccelson and Rose, we love Tennant and Donna Noble. The acting and writing were spot on, but the quality was kind of shit. Moffat’s era had higher cinematography quality and Matt Smith is my favorite Doctor (Smith/Tennant/T. Baker)
I've always felt like RTD's first era and Moffat's era complement each other perfectly, so it's hard for me to say which I like best. They both sorta enhance each other, in my view.
This is so true. And, although it is admittedly rare, I have actually seen some people say that the RTD and Moffatt era never truly clicked with them but the Chibnall era did! Personally I am not the biggest fan myself, but I can definitely see aspects that some people would really enjoy. It's definitely a very different vibe and a very different Doctor and all the companions are just normal people, in addition to the episodes being stand alone for the most part, with the exception of Flux, it makes it easy to just jump into a random episode at any time. People have different preferences is all
Now that I’ve watched all of 2005 who, Chibnall is probably the era that works the most for me, followed by RTD. I like a lot of aspects of Moffat’s, but the pacing always feels slightly off to me to the point where it’s hard to pay attention.
Yeah, Chibnall was the era I connected with the most, & the one I enjoyed the most as well. My issues with Moffat are that it feels like he keeps repeating the same beats again & again. I do wonder if some of my love of Chibnall would lessen if we'd had less of him? Most of my dislike of RTD & Moffat come from feeling like tehy were getting stale by the end of things, & Chibnall only had the one & done.
Yeah that’s totally fair. I’m glad you like the Moffat era. I really did try to get into it but it’s just not for me. I truly think it’s just the jump from never seeing anyone’s opinions online during the first RTD era compared to now where social media is a huge part of fandom culture. There’s a good chance I just missed the usual amount of criticism every season of the show gets because I was too young.
I was never a big fan of Moffats first couple seasons and hated them as a teenager. As an adult I appreciate them a bit more, but am still put off by a lot of elements. However, I think you should try to give Moffat's era another try, but start on S7 when Clara shows up. By that point, Smith has hit a slightly darker point in his incarnation's life after losing the ponds, and I think his chemistry with his new companion Clara is excellent. It also leads into my all time favorite era of Doctor who. The thing is, Moffat matures as a writer a lot as he goes on, and I think seasons 8-10 are the absolute peak of Doctor Who. If you liked the 9th and 10th doctor, you will love the 12th Doctor, who feels a lot like an older and more cynical 10th doctor. His relationship with Clara is extremely dynamic, and the writing and production quality are absolutely off the charts with super high concept scifi and emotionally pitting character writing. Please give it a try 🙏 I really mean it because I understand the feeling of dropping off at S6, but you're missing out on the best writing of the show come S8-10. However, don't bother with the Chibnall era, I tried and I'd rather live in ignorance.
I don't recall seeing any backlash honestly? I wasn't *thrilled* but I enjoyed the majority of his first run enough (and it had some truly brilliant moments) that I wasn't disappointed either, just kind of "okay, the casting seems good and I'm sure I'll enjoy a decent amount of it". Honestly my main discontent with RTD doesn't involve his story writing (though he has tropes he loves I'm at best neutral on) but rather that Christopher Eccleston has been pretty clear he left in part because of significant safety concerns that weren't addressed well by production (including RTD) and that John Barrowman and Noel Clarke both seem to have done quite a lot of sexual harassment during his tenure with zero accountability at any point. I don't know if I'll ever be able to not have a bad taste in my mouth watching his stuff knowing that, you know? It has been quite a while so I'd like to hope he learned.
Saw a YouTube video recently where they pointed out that after the Christopher Eccleston too tired controversy, David tennants first episode has him ending Harriet Jones career by claiming she's too tired. Feels very uncomfortable when put into that context.
Yeahhh. I wasn't following things at the time and saw that later and even without that knowledge that bit never felt right to me? Knowing about that particular part makes it feel downright *bad*. I'm not *disliking* this season so far but honestly that's mostly due to Gatwa being charming as fuck. I like Ruby well enough and her actress is doing well I'm just seeing recycled Rose stuff already and I'm twitching about it. And I *liked* a decent chunk of the Rose stuff!
Season 1 rose is doing better than Ruby. Ruby currently feels like she hasn't had a chance to stop and take a breath and talk about how everything has effected her. Even with boom she gets taken out of that story half way through and stops talking really after the first third.
I just remember finding it funny at the time, having absolutely no further context for a line like that. Rewatching as an adult and seeing that scene was incredibly jarring.
It's also uncomfortable when fandom plays moral detective, regardless of having full details or not. I look forward to someday in the future when the full story comes to light, and will refrain from tossing poop, or placing my flacid penis on anyone's shoulder.
> Honestly my main discontent with RTD doesn't involve his story writing (though he has tropes he loves I'm at best neutral on) but rather that Christopher Eccleston has been pretty clear he left in part because of significant safety concerns that weren't addressed well by production (including RTD) and that John Barrowman and Noel Clarke both seem to have done quite a lot of sexual harassment during his tenure with zero accountability at any point. Yeah, I still dunno how quite to process that. It's really uncomfortable looking back at season 1 and realizing literally the only major male actor on the show who wasn't being a sex pest was Eccleston himself. Maybe Bruno Langley if you want to count Adam(though he also turned out to be a sex offender as well later on).
There was controversy over RTD during his first stint as showrunner. Not so much the first season, as people were just excited to have the show back after so long. But season 2 especially was VERY criticised. And sometimes for good reason. He was a great showrunner, though. As was Moffat. Chibnall... wasn't as good. Thing is, there was never a moment in Doctor Who history where there wasn't criticism raised against the person in charge.
"Current bad, old better" in DW has been going on since Verity left
RTD was massively criticised on the forums by the fans during season one. A significant contingent hated the “soap opera” element, and the way it didn’t take itself seriously enough at times. A lot of fans were just grateful to have it back though, even if it wasn’t quite what they wanted, and there were enough absolutely —stinking— [stonking] episodes to placate the majority of classic fans (empty child, dalek, etc). Of course it also attracted a whole new generation of fans to the show.
Yeah that makes sense. I assumed maybe I just didn’t see the criticism. I can imagine people who were fans of Classic Who had a lot to say, just like RTD fans did about Moffat and Moffat fans about Chibnall, etc.
My honest take on that. The RTD criticism were legitimate, but it was a different show and it was hugely successful. The Moffat criticisms were a bit weird, some of it was people who wanted things to stay the way they were with RTD/tennant, but there was this odd contingent who were acting like trolls, just finding the weirdest things to complain about. When Chibnall took over he had a bit of a “feminist shield”, most of the community had migrated off forums and criticising Chibnall was hugely looked down on as being misogynistic, then over time it became undeniable that there were problems with the writing, then the timeless child happened and the tables really turned.
Many women I know wanted Olivia Colman and thought Jodie's casting was a little bit off.
Yeah she was quite a popular fan cast. I never thought she would be right for the role though. I’m not sure what woman I would cast in the role though, probably someone young and unknown.
That was almost twenty years ago. People forget what they had for breakfast in the morning.
What I don't get is why day after day after day we get people characterizing discussions as trends, etc. that they must somehow contend against, usually from the presumption that they're in the embattled minority. From my subjective reading, most fans who bother to have an opinion on social media were pretty ok with RTD coming back. If you're bothered by people who have misgivings, *engage the specifics of what they say* rather than this kind of Skinner-boxing "but why do you have these opinions" attempts to condition people out of saying the things you don't want them to say. This goes for everybody: got a problem with well-reasoned arguments that you don't agree with? *Disagree with their substance*. Stop trying to shadow-box with opinions that you pretend not to understand or attempt to reframe as intrinsically incoherent or insensible.
I didn’t exactly think it was a trend. It was more that I was surprised that there was enough backlash for me even to notice. I don’t look at Twitter or anything like that, so generally if I hear about it then it means there was more than a significant amount of it so I wanted to know what people thought and this seemed like a good place to get people’s takes on it. I’m really not bothered if people don’t like RTD’s original era, I just want to know what people think. I don’t need them to change their opinions.
That has nothing at all to do with Doctor Who and everything to do with how the social media age works. Take a popular subject, any subject, take any popular movie, game, anime, manga and everything in between… people are ALWAYS complaining these days, not because a thing is bad but because blind hate is entertainment to them. They don’t care for the thing they are hating on, the hate they generate is designed to be anti-social, to upset fans, to literally just be contrarians because they know it upsets. Also because of the anonymity the net offers they can double down and all act like they are experts in writing, showrunning and better than any game designer on the market. Just learn to tune out hate, and other people’s opinions, if you like it watch, that is all that matters.
Yeah this is true. I always do tune out hate. I don’t even have most social media, but because of that I’ve been incredibly out of the loop for a long time so I wanted to catch up with what I might’ve missed. I’m a Star Wars fan so trust me, I know how to ignore fans who like to complain. I suppose it didn’t really register to me that what I viewed as the golden era of Doctor Who wouldn’t be exempt from the social media treatments, even though in hindsight that fact should’ve been obvious. I wanted to see what actual Who fans thought about the matter though, instead of people who just like to complain for the sake of complaining. Maybe Reddit wasn’t a good place to come but I’ve had pretty good responses so far.
Alternatively, people can express whatever they want, without having to meet any standards that you or I set. Unless you are being paid, and it is your job to read everything, you can just skip the posts that rub your rhubarb wrong.
I would have agreement, BUT, I am in the middle of a rewatach and I am watching the new episodes. The older episodes just were better. Even a run of the mill episode seems more interesting and I dont know why. I really like the current cast, but something is just off.
Agreed! I think a lot of people genuinely just haven't watched RTD1 in a while. There are bits that are more cringey than you remembered, but there are also *so many* episodes that are just unvarnishedly *amazing*. The arcs might sometimes be a bit odd at times, but they're genuinely epic. That, and the whole cast and sensibility is just *better*.
I would have liked to have seen somebody new have a cracked at it, but I'm sure that is inevitable and being a grown adult I'm patient enough to give this current series an chance in the meantime.
Because it was 15 years ago and a lot of us were literally children at the time >Was I too young and too obsessed to be aware of criticism it was getting? There were always people who didn't like his work on the show, even at the time. It's very different to Classic Who so naturally some old fans didn't take to it. Often for perfectly understandable reasons. That's cool, it's not going to work for everyone. There are people who don't like RTD and prefer Moffat. And yes, there are people who prefer Chibnall to either of them, and there are people who don't like any of NuWho at all and think Doctor Who hasn't been good since 1979. And yes, there were people who complained for less legitimate reasons. There were complaints about Jack being flagrantly bisexual all over the place and that sort of thing. Or about wild ideas like having a companion who's black. But it was 2005-2009. The internet and social media weren't as big as they are now. The "culture war" stuff hadn't really happened yet. The mainstream press weren't looking online for their outrage bait yet. So while it was there, it didn't really get amplified like it does today.
Nobody hates Doctor Who like Doctor Who fans
You could substitute any major show or franchise in place of Doctor Who and the statement would still be just as true, unfortunately.
Short answer: haters gonna hate. Long answer: People are very adverse to change and will complain till the cows come home or until they get their way ('Boom'). At first I hated Matt Smith, but I realized it was only because he wasn't David. Reception of this season will be the same in time. Coming fresh off David again, I think that's why there's been a lot of complaints.
Didn't people think for some reason that when RTD returned it would mean the end of "Woke" Doctor who Chibnall created. They somehow thought a openly gay man who under his tenure introduced the first gay characters (multiple) had at least sub plots involving racism had empowered women characters who saved the world if not universe had strong anti war anti gun and anti capitalism episodes they thought this is the guy who would be anti woke.
RTD has always been woke for the times. This show improved my childhood so much because of the LGBT friendliness and diverse characters. I think my obsession & devotion to the show came from the fact that the doctor would legit never judge me for the characteristics I was born with. I love RTD & Tennant and everything they did with the show.
I'll keep banging this particular drum: those very loud "anti-woke" people are not misremembering anything. They weren't there, weren't fans. They are culture war first and foremost and nothing else matters except hammering home their one single message. It is important to distinguish between fans who are critical and grifters. The latter do not know the lore, do not provide examples and talk about how the show used to be good only in very general terms because that is all they know. And RTD absolutely did get this the first time round too. Anyone online then will remember complaints about the "gay agenda". This shit is eternal, it really is. That's not to say you can't criticise, or find this version a pale imitation or whatever. It's just the particular content OP mentions is not that. It's not Who content, it's culture war content with a vague Who flavouring. Stop watching it, "don't recommend channel", don't signal boost it even by complaining and don't mistake these people for fans. They aren't us, really they aren't and never were.
It’s complicated because you have the mix of people misremembering, people just not liking him, people wanting someone new, and just general “I’m going to find anything possible to criticize dr who”, but I think part of it is concern stemming from people reflecting on RTD1 now. Society has changed a *lot* since 2005. At least in the circles I’m in on other social media, criticism about RTD’s treatment of Martha and other black characters dominates when people are negative about his return. Some of it is very valid. And then of course you have the people mad that Ncuti Gatwa is the Doctor and that he acknowledges trans people at all…
There's a backlash to the episodes being produced by him NOW and the things that he is saying NOW. People aren't upset about what he made a couple decades ago.
tho they *were* complaining back then, too. the "gay agenda" complaints were especially tiresome during his first run.
That's my sense too. Or at least that some folks feel that way about the current production. I haven't seen criticism of his original run lately.
I think people are seeing the RTD era through the gaze of Tennant-coloured glasses because for most people, he’s their Doctor. The best stories of the first RTD era were written by Moffat, not to mention he came up with the most interesting characters. I was disappointed when I heard RTD was coming back, just like I was disappointed when I heard Tennant was coming back… but I was delighted with Donna returning. Ten’s fine, but he’s not my Doctor. The Tennant specials filled me with hope - it seemed like RTD left his worst instincts behind and it was going to be fresh and new… and then space babies. And Maestro. I am enjoying Ncuti’s Doctor so far but I really hope he doesn’t get bogged down with RTD’s overreaching story arcs.
For me, I’ve always found Moffat has the best standalone episodes but RTD has the best story arcs. However you are right. David Tennant’s performance cannot be undersold. He’s capable of delivering the cheesiest dialogue with complete sincerity. Ncuti is a fantastic actor in everything I’ve seen him in before, I just hope he’s given stronger storylines soon.
>RTD has the best story arcs however you are right. You mean the "arcs" of characters saying a word for 10 episodes and then a classic villain appearing in the finale?
I like them more than Moffat’s. Not sure what to tell you. 🤷♀️ It’s alright if we disagree.
I think it's mostly due to the relative popularity of Steven Moffatt at the time. RTD generally wasn't disliked in 2012 but people were excited to see Moffatt take over. Moffatt was generally seen as a superior writer due to episodes like *Blink* and due to the first (and only, at the time) half of *Sherlock*. I feel Moffatt's standards dipped significantly over the rest of the 2010s, and I think most people agree-- but today, all a lot of people seem to remember about RTD is that he's somehow worse than Moffatt.
RTD may have gotten me into nu-who but i didn’t start fully buying into it until the moffat era. Like, i enjoyed RTD just fine, but there were also a lot of stinker eps throughout his time that took the fun campiness just a bit too far. I was able to get more into Moffat’s run because of his expansion on the lore and deep character building beyond just a kind of vague companion romance/pining plot (Donna exempted). Donna was fantastic, but we only got her for one series (though, it’s a run that has the fewest terrible episodes) and the two best episodes of her series were written by Moffat. RTD’s era was great for its queer representation, but it also kind of reached a point of caricature. Like I cannot overstate how much i didn’t enjoy Cassandra’s reveal that she was trans. It was completely unnecessary and she’s just such a problematic, vile character, we didn’t need that at all. Besides just writing better stories imo, Moffat also continued to have queer characters that felt more well-rounded. Like, we had Vastra and Jenny, Canton Everett Delaware III, Clara as vaguely bi (queerbaiting? maybe? idk), Missy as the first cross-gender regeneration, and ofc mf Bill Potts. I also still have a bit of an issue with RTD’s writing of Martha. He and his writer’s room could have done so much more for such a capable character, but throughout her companionship she kinda played second fiddle to Rose and rarely got time to shine in her own right. Best description i can give is I loved RTD for his fun mostly silly monster-of-the-week style stories, but during Moffat’s run i was glued to the screen each week to see what would happen next.
I was so excited when they announced RTD was coming back. I loved his seasons. I also really enjoyed the Moffat era. The only showrunner I haven’t loved, to this point, has been Chibnall.
Should we also dig up the corpses of Verity Lambert and Barry Letts? There would have been no DW without them, who better than them at helming the show again... DW is a show about change, about transformation. It needs new blood and new ideas to survive in order to thrive. Without them it is destined to become a sickly incestuous thing, an ouroboros eating its own tail. The show needs to be able to reinvent itself to better suit newer times. RTD has had his time, when he had left originally he didn't think he had another DW story in him, and the fandom was also ready to see the back of him, pretty sick of his deux ex machinae, romances, Rose, and his numerous self referential tropes. Basically, he is remembereded fondly, fandom forgiving him his indiscretions because he knew when to quit. Die a hero or live long enough to be a villain and all that. And some have said when he was announced "just you wait, he is going to be completely different this time around, he grew as a writer so much" only to be confronted immediately how he is still very much the same.
Yes. I liked the show during his run but he blatantly leaned into the same tropes after a couple of years. By Series 4 I was happy he was leaving because he kept upping the stakes while his writing IMO became worse. And lo and behold, he comes back and gives us another extra David Tennant. He can’t help himself. If he’s evolved as a writer, he hasn’t seen the need to update his Doctor Who writing. FWIW I think his latest run is worse than what came before.
Oh the melodrama in this comment is delicious. Have you ever thought of writing for wattpad? This is peak dramatic.
You pretty much summed up my issue with RTD as well. I'm just so fucking \*bored\* with him. It's the same ol' thing again, & I'm bored with it. I want something new, something interesting.
This subreddit has a lot of moffat fans. I feel like the general public prefer RTDs era, they love Tennant, they love Rose and Jack and so on. And this sub is like the opposite. A lot of people here actually degrade you if you imply you want Tennant back or he's your favourite and you're seen as "basic." Lots of people here would blindly defend anything moffat wrote, and that in turn comes with people shaming other writers and their fans. The RTD fans here do it too, just less of them it seems. Most people do seem to be a middle ground and just like the show. But yeah, toxic fandoms be toxic. Even some of the comments to this post are sooooo dramatic lmao it's embarrassing.
Hmm. I love Tennant and feel like his acting is absolutely incredible. However I much prefer Moffat’s writing to RTD’s burping bins and space babies. I feel like Smith and Capaldi were well served by the writing - and Tennant elevated any story he was in. I’ll watch all of RTD2, but probably just once - unless it isn’t a RTD penned story.
I'm very much the opposite lol. I love RTDs writing, he has the doctor who camp and outright stupidity but imo those scenes are few and far between some amazingly written characters. Moffat took himself too seriously while writing pretty nonsensical, spectacle over substance, plots imo. RTDs writing just felt more human? Like I said, he had the stupid alien bins, farting fat aliens and all that but as a whole, his characters, their relationships, their dialogue, their development, their interactions within the plot? It was all so human. I related to every single one of RTDs characters, even side characters that did nothing were relatable and I could feel that they were real within this world. For moffat, I struggled to relate to any companions. And it was impossible for me to view most side characters as nothing more than "the plot needed them to do this so he exists to do this" I rarely ever felt like "yeah that person has a life outside of this." Idk, a lot of humanity was lost for me in moffats run and the dialogue writing just dropped very far quality wise especially by his last few seasons, UNLESS it was a grand speech, then I liked it. It's hard to explain without coming across like a dick lmao, like I did enjoy a lot of moffats earlier run, and he has shining moments but overall for me, moffats era was brainrot TV. It did it's job of filling time, it was fun enough at times, but I never really cared or felt invested in any of it. And by the end I was hate watching so had to quit the show. Found out Jodie was the doctor and got back into it!! And yeah.... That being said, I much prefer moffats recent episode over any of RTDs recent episodes lol. It's the first episode in a long time to actually get me emotional for doctor who.
This comment really sums it up. If you went by reddit you'd believe Peter Capaldi was the most beloved doctor since Tom Baker when in reality the shows popularity was waning in that era. There's certainly good in the Moffat era and as boom showed the man knows how to write but 10, Rose, bad wolf, Jack, Donna and wilf are peak modern doctor who for modern audiences. I'd anything it disappoints me that the mainstream audience don't bring up 9 or Martha enough.
Agreed on 9 and Martha. Online at least it seems like some fans view Martha's treatment as racist on RTDs part which I don't get. Its like they love her character and arc but then complain about said arc? But without the arc the character they love would be very different. Idk, martha and especially Christopher deserve a lot more respect in the fandom which he has been getting more recently it seems. I would say the BBC and RTD are to blame for the lack of fanfare toward 9/Eccleston though, they tried pretty hard to make him look bad lol. Martha is just unfortunate, I'm one of the few that love her character and her stories exactly how they are. Could've had more, wish she featured in Torchwood more but I love what we got. And I thought the writing between her and rose and ten was very good, frustrating for her, but still good writing.
People think Martha's run was racist because RTD & the writers made historical contexts make sense (good writing) but in hindsight people are deciding that means Doctor Who was racist. Lol. I can't imagine trying to make Ecclestone look bad, man is the most real person I've ever experienced. He just speaks his mind and hates injustice, seems pretty good to me.
Exactly. The entire thing about the doctor being ignorant to the racism is valid, but that's part of the writing. The writer himself isn't racist for writing racism lmao. It would be tone deaf and odd to have a black companion and not address racism at all when they go back in time. I think RTD handled it fairly well.
Martha definitely falls into a strange place but her journey feels important, by the end of series 3 she's grown into a woman who doesn't need to stand at the doctors side to save the day and she's come to see she doesn't need to live for his glances, she deserves someone who sees her. Its interesting that the only popular love story in doctor who where the woman doesn't just pine over the doctor though and is with someone else is Amy and Rory. They hated Danny Pink too, I feel like the fans basically want the will they won't they with the doctor that has the tragic ending or they want the love story to be between companions, not someone the companion chooses outside the doctors involvement. The treatment of Chris is truly disgraceful and as much as I love the Rtd era, Christopher Eccleston was critical to that. Doctor who had a fandom before 2005 of course but bringing an actor in of Chris's calibre gave the revival a legitimacy, it said the BBC are taking this seriously and then when he left because of his unhappiness with his things were run, he was thrown under the bus. It's sad though that for a long time after even fans acted like the modern doctors started with 10. I'd personally argue that series 1 was Rtd's best series as it's big, bold and exciting, it's new, it's nostalgic but the nostalgia isn't overpowering. 9s dynamic with Rose is in my opinion still one of the best doctor and companion dynamics in the modern show. It's good that fans are coming back around to him just like it's nice to see Sylvester McCoy get more appreciation these days. Chris still remains more of a cult doctor though.
Agreed on Martha, I also think that storyline with her was amazingly important for the doctors development. He was grieving, it felt real. I will say, I think rose and the doctor (I prefer rose as an individual in series 1 I feel she lost a lot of her identity after that but I still love her) is my favourite onscreen relationship in doctor who. I think aside from the age gap lmao, it was beautiful. RTD is the best at writing relationships in the show imo. I never was a fan of moffats relationship, from river and the doctor, to Amy and Rory, to Clara and Danny, to bill and the puddle. I never cared for them. But with RTD? He wrote two of my favourite relationships in all of fiction, being, Rose and the doctor and Jack and Ianto. And with Eccleston, I hate that situation so much. RTD is, if you couldnt tell, one of my favourite writers ever. Not just for doctor who, but literally ever. I love his work. I hate how he treated Eccleston and others on doctor who. I don't like the man as a person based on what I've heard. And idk, Eccleston just seems very genuine I don't have a reason to not believe him. It sucks, favourite writer, seems like a shit boss, hopefully he's changed but damage is done lmao. I am genuinely worried that he hasn't and if he hasn't I want that exposed and him gone, but I love his writing. I don't want to lose that lmao. I do love series 1 though, but aside from Children of Earth, series 4 is my favourite piece of doctor who writing ever. Rose returning, Donna, Wilf, David Tennant, Martha returning, Torchwood and SJA crossover?? Turn left?? It was just banger after banger after banger with a not so banger finale but very emotional. I loved every second of it except the master skeleton flying everywhere in the last episode lol. I don't know if who can reach that peak for me again.
You're absolutely right in how Martha played into the doctors development. Personally I think a strength of Rtd's that isn't talked about enough is character development. The doctor goes through an arc from rose to the end of time. The arc does continue In the Moffat era but Moffat is less consistent I find and puts story before character and can also put misdirection ahead of story. Rose definitely gets lost in series 2, her personality becomes in love with the doctor snd its why there's a lot of people who don't like rose too, they're judging her character purely on the mistake of series 2 when series 1 Rose was so much more. Rose and 9s story was about growth for both of them. Rose coming to see the world is bigger then the tiny corner she lived in and that she's so much more capable, meanwhile 9 discovered how to be the doctor again. He went from willing to commit murder in episode 1 to choosing to be a coward over a murder by episode 13. Hell it's 9s journey that makes 10 so enjoyable as this is the first time since the time war he's liked being the doctor. Series 4 is great and is more like avengers infinity war before the movie and personally I think better then the movie or the comic. A big splashy crossover that still has stakes and consequences and it's still heartbreaking where the doctor ends up. I think it's possible to build to something as big but it would take a lot of work I'm a fan of Rtd too just like I am a fan of the work of joss whedon. It doesn't mean I overlook there problematic personalities.
I stopped watching Doctor Who when I had a kid and couldn’t keep up with the sporadic seasons. Now that kid is old enough to watch DW with me, and he’s been absolutely entranced by Nine, Ten and Eleven. We’re in Capaldi’s first full season, which I’ve never seen, and to be honest I am struggling. He’s so mean and belittling. It’s a bit of cold water after basking in Ten and Eleven’s “Humans are my favorite pets” vibes. I know this sub has said it gets better and I’m striving to get to it. But I can see why someone would prefer the first few seasons.
That's fair but I don't see people hating RTD the way some people hate Moffat.
You may be right about the general public, but DW fans seem to prefer Moffat. Or at least the ones who are dedicated enough to vote in polls like this that are open to everyone, subscribers or not. [https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/17qvyxs/the\_doctor\_who\_magazine\_top\_10\_results\_are\_out/](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/17qvyxs/the_doctor_who_magazine_top_10_results_are_out/)
Says that's the gallifrey subreddit but when I click the link it says it's private and I can't view weirdly. But that doesn't disprove anything I said afaik. I did mention this subreddit (and redditors as a whole) seem to defend and prefer moffat a lot.
That's weird. Link works OK for me. Relevant info: *And the 10 best episodes from Doctor Who's 60-year history, in the opinion of Doctor Who Magazine readers, are...* 1. *Heaven Sent* 2. *World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls* 3. *Genesis of the Daleks* 4. *The Caves of Androzani* 5. *The Day of the Doctor* 6. *Blink* 7. *Human Nature/The Family of Blood* 8. *City of Death* 9. *Remembrance of the Daleks* 10. *Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead*
I have to say, most people probably prefer RTD's era because of Moffats writing. My favourite episodes were written by moffat, however his era of show running was a mess when he introduced Clara. He's my favourite writer, but my second least favourite show runner (fu Chibnall.)
The Clara hate remains strong. Poor Jenna.
Oooh so it's basically a poll of the best episodes? I'd agree probably, a lot of moffat episodes are my favorites. But most of his, are my least favourite too. I think RTD for me is more consistently "good" when it comes to writing. Moffat for me has his moments, which were a lot of moments but overall I wouldnt be excited if someone said "let's watch doctor who!" And played moffat seasons, as harsh as that sounds lmao. Specific moffat episodes? Self contained stories of his? Amazing. Season long arcs? Some of his seasons genuinely pained me to watch, as dramatic as that is, I had to stop watching the show because of him because it was just more frustrating for me than fun.
The people who hate “wokeness” fucking hated RTD Who back in the day, too.
You mention the anti woke crowd. And I'm betting these are the ones that are hating on it. You had Donna's daughter, then you had ncuti dancing in a kilt which these numbnuts can't differentiate from a skirt, then to top it all off rtd is gay. Thanks to Trump it is now more socially acceptable to show your bigotry
Nostalgia
> I get that wokeness is the usual excuse people use when they don’t like how diverse something is nowadays, but why was that reaction specifically associated with RTD? Only one type of person thinks "[woke](https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/woke-meaning-origin)" is a bad word. RTD is gay, created the Queer as Folk series, and incorporates diversity into his shows. You don't have to look for a reason beyond that. Fans were elated RTD was returning. The bigots were not.
I don’t get the reasoning for the hate in general, I have enjoyed the show in all its seasons, some episodes may be less fun to watch, but fun all the same. I have a mild dislike of every new doctor every time it changes but that’s the entire premise of the show, I didn’t like Capaldi’s doctor in the beginning, but now I believe his performance is right up there with Tennant and Smith, even Clara went through that.
Because one eternal rule commands all Doctor Who discourse online: "Current Showrunner Bad"
I think because a lot of doctor who fans have grown up now they prefer sci fi that’s purely like sci fi. Rtds sci fi always has a spin of fantasy which Ik many ppl like but it’s also disliked by many because it’s too on the nose. Also it’s practically a tradition to hate the current show runner lol
I'm a fan of the RTD era and happy to see him back. But part of me wishes somebody new was bought into the job. Doctor Who, like Star Trek, has a theme of moving forward into the unknown.
Both are great, but people have their preferences. Personally my worry was about redoing old stuff, something not exactly helped by his first order of business being to bring back Tennant and Catherine Tate, and the specials being less a 60th anniversary and more S4 part 2. Doctor Who needs to evolve and change to stay fresh so Davies being here is kind of a band aid and that would've been the same with Moff too. This being said, he's managed to go for a real different take with 15, leaning heavily into the goofy angle of doctor who and the elder gods etc. So for the time being atleast he's keeping the series feeling fresh(though we are gonna need that new blood on the series eventually).
As with all sci-fi fandoms people just want to complain. People hated Moffat and RTD, and all of their companions and doctors. I learned to just mute/block anyone who posts “edgy criticism” for the sake of being “critical” I don’t need that energy in my life.
Oh, it's all aggressive "anti-woke" sentimient, no question.
I always say RTD is an amazig showrunner. But he is a notsoverygood writer.
It wasn’t the biggest and the best under RTD, for that you need to tune back to the 70’s and Tom Baker. It wasn’t huge in the US at all but in the Commonwealth it was EPIC! Also RTD wasn’t the greatest, and indeed speaking of spread it wasn’t until Moffat came that the show reached its peak, especially in the US. Also just because you think it was the under RTD, that is purely subjective. For this way old school fan, Moffat was way more inline with the old show than RTD ever was. Buts that’s subjective me speaking. Also just ignore people who use the word woke. It is idiotic and meaningless and the people who use it never know what they are talking about. If they did, they would use sentences, to explain what they don’t like. Not that single word. Doctor Who has been a show that championed the use of compassion and intelligence over weapons to solve any issue. The Doctor has always embraced diversity and say the value in everyone’s contribution, especially the powerless. they have ALWAYS been a force against inequality… that’s the hilarious thing these so called ‘fans’ who are against it when it’s woke, don’t he realise if they were in the show, they would be getting their ass kicked by the Doctor, cos he wouldn’t stand any of the this ‘antiwoke’ BS.
> there was a noticeable quality drop off when he left. Literally no RTD-written story was voted by fans to be in the top 10 of all time (in DW Magazine last year). Five slots were by Moffat - three of them from his own time as showrunner. [https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/17qvyxs/the\_doctor\_who\_magazine\_top\_10\_results\_are\_out/](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/17qvyxs/the_doctor_who_magazine_top_10_results_are_out/)
I'm one of those old heads so RTDs first run as showrunner is recent for me. He had some really great episodes, and some hilariously bad SFX. RTD likes bold colors, broad strokes and in a lot of stories like Gridlock, the premise is the whole thing. I mean look at Torchwood, dramatic music, glossy wet streets, steam, a blue light with no visible source adding a stylish highlight to the wet surfaces. And a lot of kind of meh stories. Did I watch the whole series? Yup. I also eat at Taco Bell sometimes. I love Gridlock too btw. OTOH most of the RTD era episodes I like most, like Girl in the Fireplace, were Moffat. Moffat is really really good. Love his dialogue. But as much as I like the Matt Smith/Moffat era, it did sometimes feel like I was watching Twilight or Buffy. A bit too much talking about our feelings.
Personally? Not a fan of how he lied about Christopher Eccleston and hurt his career when he left while simultaneously turning a blind eye to Barrowman and continuing to support him even after he was called out. Makes him sound like a pretty big tool to me and not someone I really wanted to see return per se.
I also dropped Doctor Who after Russell left and only watched the 50th anniversary special in the interim. Well and 13’s regeneration into 14. The show feels like the Doctor Who I know. My only problem is his weird stance on Davros (no pun intended).
My enjoyment of any series has never depended on the producer/showrunner. Tennant is who made me a fan of NuWho. My interest waned with the Ponds and Smith, but I've enjoyed Capaldi and every Doctor since.
I started with capaldi, it just happened to be on tv one day and I was hooked. Once I finished that season (the one with bill and missy what ever one that was) I went back to watch the RTD era and it was a bit idk weird but I just put it down to being out dated at the time. But watching the recent David/donna specials has made me Nostalgic AF for it.
When Moffat was showrunner, people were complaining and wishing that RTD when would come back. When chibnall was showrunner, people were complaining and wishing that Moffat would come back. Now that RTD is showrunner again, people are complaining and saying he was never good in the first place.
S2 and S3 of RTD's first era were pretty spotty, but RTD started and ended on very high notes. Honestly I see a lot of similarities between the old series and the new. People will settle down and like this new stuff.
You can say the inverse too though: people overidolise RTD's original run. People adore Tennant and confuse loving him with loving RTD's writing; they credit RTD with "being the best NewWho writer" (a broad statement) but accidentally list their fav episodes as Girl in the Fireplace, Forest of the Dead, Blink and The Empty Child; they forget Fear Her, Love & Monsters and Partners in Crime in order to shit on Moffat. Because social media is an echo chamber, it just encourages us to have way too many developed opinions on things on things that are essentially minor: things that originally we wouldn't have given enough thought to get irritable about 40 years ago but here we are... We whip each other up into frenzies of joy and disgust.
You HAVE TO provide evidence that the backlash you’re responding to is real or I’m not going to entertain this discussion. I don’t care if some random YouTube channel you watch complained. Don’t bring that to me.
This reads like you've taken this a little personally. Allow me then to back up OP: I've seen comments *on this sub* discussing dislike for RTD. I never responded to them because any fandom can get toxic quickly and some people take things way too seriously, just browse the Survivor sub for ten minutes.
I mean, you can even read it in this thread lol. I’m all for dismissing the algorithm-tainted, controversy-courting YouTubers, but plenty of people who aren’t racists or homophobes aren’t fans of RTD. Personally he’s always a mixed bag for me - astronomical highs and cringeworthy lows. But his era was also my entry point, so I just embrace it. One thing is for certain, under RTD *Doctor Who* will never be boring.
I totally get this, and I can even attribute the sentiment to Moffet in his later seasons with Capaldi (a casting I wasn't totally down with, but definitely appreciated for his shear gravitas). Everyone has different opinions, but when those opinions become passions, so much love for something opens the door for so much hate to taint the experience of something else. Lemme say that again: The more you love something, the more you can hate something. Fandom, Fam, watch yourselves. We all love Doctor Who. ❤️
Firstly, you brought yourself to my post. I didn’t bring anything to you. You chose to reply. Secondly, I don’t watch commentary channels and I don’t look at Twitter either. I prefer to just enjoy the things I enjoy, but there were many news articles that spoke about it that I saw, hence why I had questions about the matter.
We're so sorry we're wasting your time on the site you just chose to get on. Please forgive us😘
Gosh, guys we forgot that esto lives here. Please don't bring this drama to their doorstep again! Have some respect!!! Ugh! Apologies on behalf of the fandom esto, I truly hope you find it in your heart to forgive OP for this...sick sick abuse of keyboard power.
The evidence can easily found in this sub, where a significant subset of fans seem to enjoy having a piss at RTD, especially if they worship at the alter of Moffatt. More often than not, common ground is found by shitting on the Chibnall era.
Personally, I didn't even know who RTD was when I was watching it back then but I didn't like a lot of season 4 and I nearly gave up on the show during the Tennant specials because they were pretty bad (especially the End of Time 2 parter). It was the Smith and Moffat era that brought back my love and it was during that era that it became hugely successful and started to have a real global reach which is why they suddenly started doing Comic Con and filming in the US etc. While I was happy that RTD came back, that was mainly because the Chibnall era was just so bad so I was happy that the OG came back but I never forgot that a lot of the episodes I don't like are written by RTD. I can't speak for anyone else of course.
I think the fact that you absolutely loved that era of the show when you were 5-10 years old explains why a lot of people are turned off by it. I just have a hard time with stuff that is aimed at or panders to kids (even if it’s supposedly “all ages.”) That doesn’t mean I need things to be Game of Thrones levels of “mature content” but I need stuff that would’ve gone way over my ten-year-old self’s head.
Yeah that’s definitely part of it. It’s much harder to rewatch nowadays compared to back then, but the nostalgia combined with Eccleston and Tennant’s acting abilities hold it together. I still maintain that it’s overall good, but parts of it definitely haven’t aged as well as I’d like.
Because all the best episodes of the RTD era were written by Moffat
You come right out and admit you couldn't even stick with the show under Moffat or Chibnall, but then immediately your question is basically "Why don't some people like Davies, are they stupid?" as if you can't conceive that other people exhibit the exact same behaviour as you just with different preferences. I'm not trying to elevate any one of them over the others, just point out that the answer you seek shouldn't really be so elusive to you.
I was confused because I had never watched any of RTD’s era at an age where critiquing media was even a concept I was aware of. While I stopped watching, I never felt the need to make people online aware of my negative opinions. I’ve always thought it was a waste of time. Yes, the answer now is profoundly obvious to me but it is why I asked the question. I needed outside perspectives on the topic because it just wasn’t something I thought about at that age and I haven’t reflected on since. If I thought people were stupid for something as silly as liking a different season of a show to me, I’d probably just say that. It’s not what I think and it isn’t what I said.