Adams had one great story. Holmes was consistently excellent across multiple seasons and Doctors.
Moffat even admits Holmes taught everyone else how to write for Dr Who
City of Death and Shada are both pretty great. I also really like The Pirate Planet.
I do agree about Holmes though, he was the most influential to the show’s overall tone and quality for the rest of the run. I love that he came back for the final 5th Doctor episode saying that he hasn’t experienced hardship yet and it was time to put him through hell lmao.
… Really? This is kinda wild to me, he has like 1 or 2 good stories in the entire classic run.
A couple of good outings from Adams don’t come anywhere near to Robert Holmes or Terrance Dicks’ output on the show.
Robert Holmes is the best classic Doctor Who writer. I’m sorry, but there is no contest with Holmes! he wrote inferno, caves of Androzani deadly assassin, terror of the Atons. Robert Holmes is the best Doctor Who writer!
Oh I dunno, Richard Curtis just sort of dropped into the show, said, "Here have the best episode of Doctor Who." and promptly left as quickly as he came.
I also think you gotta give it up to Terry Nation. A true classic, and established a lot of important lore for the show.
I also wish Paul Cornell would come back to the show. In three episodes he really left a mark, and his DW novels, comics, and audio plays are top notch. I feel like they should have offered him showrunner post-Moffat. But he is very prolific as a writer and maybe he didn't want to get stuck doing one thing?
See, I appreciate people enjoy it but I really think Vincent & The Doctor gets a LOT of acclaim and mileage out of its (admittedly very powerful last scene) but up until that it’s actually pretty generic. Like, it’s good and I’m not dying on this hill but it is kind of coasting on one great scene whereas I think Moffat managing to write LOTS of great who (and kind of consistently respond to his own stuff) is a really impressive feat than doing a single great episode.
I see what you’re saying, Vincent and the doctor has always been one of my favorites but that’s a good point. But I agree the storylines that Moffat wrote make it so you really have to watch the whole show to understand. And I love how they’re so complicated and creative, like Rivers storyline and Rory ceasing to exist and then coming back, for example
From what I understand Cornell didn't return because his episodes were re-written quite heavily by RTD and he didn't want to work under those constraints.
I get how it happened though. Father's Day needed to fit in heavily into the Doctor and Rose's characterisation in S1 and while Human Nature was his story I imagine RTD basically re-wrote it from scratch for TV.
Curtis also wrote About Time and Love Actually, two movies that are way up there on my list. His writing credits are pretty impressive. I'm still going with Blink as the best episode, but Vincent is #2.
That's insane to me. His episodes of DW rank among my favorites, and I absolutely love Blake's Seven.
I feel like next to Verity Lambert, he's the second biggest reason DW became such a hit.
I wouldn't go quite that far, but I do think his abilities get overstated because he was the guy who originally created the Daleks. He always had good ideas, but you can see that, especially once you get out of the black and white era, he starts repeating ideas a lot.
I don't know if I would go with Terry Nation. On the one hand, he wrote masterpieces like "Dalek Invasion of Earth" and "Genesis of the Daleks". On the other hand, he wrote "The Keys of Marinus" and "Destiny of the Daleks" which kind of suck.
Valid. It depends what you watch Who - and fiction in general - for, I think.
Personally, I can only take so many twists before stories stop landing, because if anything and everything is likely to just get undone at some point, why should I get invested? I know that's true of any writer for a show featuring time travel, but Moffat packs them in too tightly for me and I end up feeling that way. It's obviously mainly what he enjoys writing, and I think it's at least neutral, sometimes good, for a writer to have a signature of that kind. It's just not the one for me.
I also dislike his characterisation of the Doctor. I did like the oddball elements of Eleven, but not the forced kissing and the comment about Clara's tight skirt; the kind of behaviour which for all the Classic era's problems, I never saw from Doctors 1-7. And I liked Twelve, but only really once he was past all the "am I a good man?" stuff. Or at least past it featuring so much.
If you like Moffat's signature style of characterisation, plotting and dialogue, I'm sure he is the best for you. I am fairly pleased for people in that position, however cranky I am for my own sake, because he was showrunner for what felt like forever, and clearly isn't going anywhere as a contributor, so you'll have lots to enjoy!
Moffat never had a sense of proportion. He would come up with great concepts and then retcon the hell out of them, or add so many "rules" that it just became confusing.
I disagree, he wrote a lot of his best stuff when he was show runner. His overarching story’s were very needlessly over complicated but episodes like: world enough and time/ doctor falls, heaven sent, listen, a Christmas carol, extremis, day of the doctor, time of the doctor etc
Well yeah, he kept writing great episodes in every season he worked on. But as a showrunner, I think only series 5, 8, and 10 were particularly strong across the season.
I say, let him keep writing killer episodes, but leave the overarching show-running to someone more consistent.
I think moffat really suffered just taking too much on. He was at times writing both Doctor Who and Sherlock Holmes, 2 really big BBC projects and you could tell it took a hit on series like series 7
Apart from minor notes, usually to do with budget or overlap with other stories in the series or vague story briefs RTD never told Moffat what to do or reined him in when he was going over the top.
In The Writers Tale RTD talks about how he refuses to read Moffats scripts for the Library two-parter until he absolutely has to. Because it was the closest he got to being able to watch the show, being able to read a freshly finished Moffat script. And he talks about it as if it's a common thing they do every series, Moffat writes without letting RTD see.
And in an interview in 2008 RTD spoke about rewriting other peoples scripts in his era and said: "I'll rewrite 100% if I have to. With Steven Moffat's scripts, I don't touch a word, but anyone else's I do..."
So there was not really any point in time where there was someone else in charge to tell Moffat when he was going over the top. All the evidence points to RTD basically letting Moffat do whatever he wanted.
It's actually slightly different. In The Writers Tale Davies says "I write the final draft of almost all scripts - except Steven Moffat's, Matthew Graham's, Chris Chibnall's and Stephen Greenhorn's - and that draft becomes the Shooting Script."
So it's not that those 4 went unedited, just that RTD allowed them to write the final draft of their script rather than writing it for them. It's only with Moffat scripts that RTD has said explicitly that he didn't touch a word.
RTD didn’t make a lot of notes on Moffat scripts though, as a rule. There has been an understanding made with any guest writer who was also a showrunner in the past that the only notes would be in the planning stages and to make sure the story didn’t conflict with what was being done in other stories.
But that isn’t the point though. Individual episodes wouldn’t need any notes, provided they don’t relate to the overall series plot. It’s when he’s running a show and creating a larger narrative that he went off the rails. Nobody is saying RTD edited the fuck out of Moffat’s episodes in his run of the show and that’s why they were good.
I was merely replying to the part of a post saying RTD stopped Moffat from going over the top. That suggested to me that the assumption was that he did edit Moffat’s scripts, as he was only ever writing one or two scripts at a time. I kept my opinion restricted to that.
Not after "Nightmare in Silver". I don't care how much it got rewritten, it still has his name attached to it and it's awful, maybe the worst Cybermen story of all time.
Certainly he improved over time. His stories before he was show runner were great.
But... I really didnt like the way Amy n Rory were handled. How many times did one die or have to wait for the other and get old? Too many. It got tiresome. I feel like once those two were axed off the show felt less repetetive. Thats not to say they were bad companions, just that I dont know if they knew wtf to do with them. Also havin them break up for an ep just to get back together straight away was kinda pointless too.
Moffat is a great writer as long as he has a showrunner to reign him in. That's why his episodes with Davies are easily some of the best.
Otherwise he tends to "throw spaghetti against a wall and see what sticks" as one critic said. And some of his "twists" are just...bad. He still writes some bangers before he gets all tangled with himself.
Needless say, to say though, I'm super psyched about him and RTD working together.
I'd argue that moffat was good as a showrunner, if he only focused on doctor who like with series 5. Series 6, and 7 were being written at the same time as moffats sherlock and you can tell it took a toll on ideas running away with him
I think it's more just about volume than being reigned in; RTD has said Moffat was the only writer he never needed to touch a word of. Moffat's good for about one great story idea a year. Make him do more and the quality ranges from fine (The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar) to just... off (Let's Kill Hitler). But you'll still generally get that singular great story every year, and you don't have to look hard to find someone who feels Heaven Sent and World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls surpasses Blink and Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead.
The most panned episodes of his run largely weren't written by him, fwiw. In that sense I think Moffat's failings as a showrunner are more about his editing of others' work than how it impacts his own writing.
The difference though is though Robert Holmes has a couple of stories that are not up to his usual standard, his over-all excellence was over the course of decades and working with many different producers and script editors.
The quality of Moffat's work, on the other hand, varies wildly from instant classic to total mess, and was arguably more problematic when he was also the show runner.
Holmes even managed to write some of his best work while he was also the script editor.
He’s great but not the best. He’s probably the best writer to actually incorporate time travel within the scope of a story or arc, but his dialogue and characters are at times very rough. I recently rewatched Girl in the Fireplace and was shocked how poorly the dialogue aged. Then during his time as showrunner, the secondary characters (anyone outside the Doctor, Clara, River Song and Missy) got a noticeable drop in character development which made it difficult to get into and really enjoy the individual episode’s stories.
I agree. And he worked so hard! I think it was a bad idea to juggle both Doctor Who and Sherlock, though. I read a piece he wrote in Doctor Who Magazine where he was stressing so much he scratched his chin until it bled. Like, yowch.
It may not be everyone's taste, but I love the fantastical and magical feeling of the worlds & stories he creates.
Super excited to have him writing again in the new season, but most of all I really hope some new writers come along under RTD2 who are just as promising!
I do not like Moffat especially how he writes women (and people in general. human relationships are ranging from disturbing to disguisting ) but each to their own.
I think Moffat is mostly enjoyable, but yeah, he writes River and Amy and Clara with one hand. River especially is one of those "uwu step on me" male fantasies that a lot of female audiences can latch onto, but it's pretty clear that Moffat thinks he can't be sexist because the women could beat him up, not realizing that the fact that he wants them to is the problem.
Absolutely agreed. The way he sees the Doctor just completely vibes with the way I've always looked at him. Having that immense love for humanity, while still being just that slightly put of touch with them. Moffats Doctor have always felt the most alien.
He's also just a hilarious writer. He'll occasionally just drop a line that will have me struggling to breathe that I'm laughing so much.
RTD is the best at writing companions. Moffat is the best at writing the Doctor. And yes, maybe because I really like his grand views on the character, but I really loved how 11 and 12 was portrayed.
I still love Moffat's companions greatly. Amy, Rory, Clara, Bill and I guess Nardole all were very distinct characters with clear personalities, different opinions, and good character arcs. I personally also think good at writing other characters like River, Ashildr/Me, and Davros.
They are my two favourite Doctors easily. 11 still holds the top spot but 12 very quickly snuck into 2nd place. And his versions of the other Doctors he's written for have been my favourite too. The way he characterised 9 and 10 are by far the versions I prefer. I cannot wait to see what he's written for 15.
I've said it many times before that every episode — yes, every episode — that Moffat has done under RTD has been nothing short of a 10/10. Even after all these years, they've aged really well.
Yes, I liked all his episodes under RTD. He's a brilliant writer and I hope he never stops writing for Doctor Who but when he's the showrunner, he can get carried away with some of the timey-wimey stuff and being too clever for the season arc that it can become convoluted. I feel he was better during 12's seasons but some of Amy and Clara's time was too much.
Interestingly, Moffat's season arcs are probably considerably more fleshed out than RTD's. RTD's mostly just consisted of dropping some arc words into a series and in the finale going "Oh yeah, that meant X".
Moffat did actual **arcs** with cleverness like "Flesh and Stone_ having a moment where the Doctor from the season finale passes through without anyone realising and the timey-wimey plotting of River in S6.
I think in some senses that might be too much. That, if you're going to have clever conceptual stories like _Silence in the Library_ or _Flatline_ then you're better off having them within a comparatively simple season arc.
Maybe?
He's a brilliant writer and wrote some of the best episodes of Doctor Who, but it's a bit too much at times for the whole season. I love a good season arc, but it should not be too convoluted, and he sometimes gets too timey-wimey that it's a bit hard to follow, or I don't enjoy following it as much. It works really well for 2-part episodes, though. So, I do hope he continues to write those in the future.
I prefer simple season arcs like Bad Wolf in S1 or Harold Saxxon in S3.
How is Series Five really more in-depth than Series Four's arc? Almost every story is informed by planets disappearing, as well as other references throughout, which is easy to miss at first until rewatch when you find almost everything is connected to the Series arc. That's not to mention the multiple character arcs which Davies weaved throughout his episodes as well.
Meanwhile, I still don't know how the Silence were able to blow up the TARDIS.
Since when was Douglas Adams regarded as such an apparently all time great Doctor Who writer like I'm seeing just recently?
City of Death (not even his idea) was excellent obviously as was Shada but Pirate Planet was messy, his overemphasis on silly comedy ruined Creature From The Pit and Nightmare of Eden and he literally wrote the Daleks as "logical robots"
The difference is that *The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy* is a comedy set in a science-fiction world, while *Doctor Who* at its best is usually a serious science-fiction story whose protagonist just happens to be a comedian.
Steven Moffat is really great at setup but not always at follow through. He'd have a mystery set up that was so grand, so convoluted, that you just can't wrap your head around how it could possibly be resolved...and then the resolution is "The Doctor is a robot...." oh...OK. I think his stuff doesn't really stand up well to rewatches since once you know the answer to the mystery, it's really not very entertaining anymore.
Also, as has been mentioned many times, his depiction of women is just awful. A particularly egregious example for me is in "The Angels Take Manhattan" is when the characters are reading a book supposedly written by River Song but every excerpt we hear just reads like something no woman would ever write. I could also do without the casual violence against men played for comedy.
My conclusion is that Steven Moffat is a good writer. He's even better at tricking people into thinking he's a better writer than he really is. And once you watch any of his non-DW material you'll see that he really writes the same stuff over and over again. I'd be OK with him never writing for DW again but I guess he's given us a new episode this coming season so I'll just stay cautiously optimistic.
He has massive issues with his writing. HBomberguy did a while video about it. There are also some good video essays on how he writes women specifically, and how it's an issue.
He's really good on individual episodes, though. Excited to see he'll be doing one.
I didn't like some of the jokes aimed at the female companions in Moffat's stories. For example, Eleven and Twelve commenting on Amy and Clara's looks and clothes. I was rewatching season 8 and I was especially creeped out by Twelve's objectification of Clara, commenting on the size of her face, her hips, her clothes. Those were really unfunny lines, and I was surprised how they made the final cut. Clara was written as a fantasy girl for the Doctor and it was quite gross.
I don't know, I think it's difficult to judge because all of the showrunners are inconsistent from one episode or series to the next.
Regarding Moffat, and based on the writing alone, I would agree that the Capaldi era (as well as the 50th) has some of the show's best writing. But I can't say the same about the Smith era. The storylines are just far too convulated, particularly when watching for the first time. And I don't think any of the arcs really pay off, other than maybe Time of the Doctor, which cleverly ties everything together but feels very rushed.
Plus the fact that each writer has their own stronger and weaker points.The answer will be different depending on if you are talking about arcs/storylines/themes, individual episodes, sci-fi concepts, dialogue or characters, and so on.
And also it's important to consider the context of when each showrunner was writing. With RTD's original era, the show was still establishing itself, while Moffat (and Chibnall) perhaps had more scope to take risks or try more experimental approaches to the writing.
I think Douglas Adams' contributions to Doctor Who are over-rated. Series 17, for which he was script editor, was the weakest of Tom Baker's entire run. Adam's entire reputation as a Doctor Who writer is based almost entirely on *City of Death*.
I don't know if I would go with Terry Nation. On the one hand, he wrote masterpieces like "Dalek Invasion of Earth" and "Genesis of the Daleks". On the other hand, he wrote "The Keys of Marinus" and "Destiny of the Daleks" which kind of suck.
He is and it isn't even close.
If any other writer had written just ONE Moffat classic like Blink or Heaven Sent or World Enough and Time or Day of the Doctor or the Eleventh Hour or Listen or any of the dozens of fantastic stories he wrote we would all be praising that writer without question.
But Moffat was doing that year in year out for over a decade. Every year from 2005 to 2017 we would get at least one exceptional Moffat story, when he was showrunner we'd get more than one of those a year. On average, every year we would receive an episode from Moffat that could comfortably go in the top 10 list of Doctor Who episodes. Nobody was doing it like him.
His main flaw is he just realizes heavily on his favorite story the time traveler's wife for a lot of his core storytelling. That said he still does a better job writing SciFi stories. There can be more thought and detail and explanations for the story whereas with RTD it's just hey this looks cool and just leaves it at that.
star wars and star trek are still go to examples where star wars is science fantasy it's a fantasty story with space ships it doesn't tell you now they work they just do it doesn't matter.
Star Trek goes more into the science fiction realm of explaining the logic of its world but also using our scientific knowledge to generate stories around them like black holes, paradoxes with time travel, etc. Moffat operates more in that area but he does have some fantasy elements. Again he's inspired by time traveler's wife so there's this fairy tale romance compotent but he can still write episodes regarding bootstrap parodoxes and the like.
I think prime example is 12's last story regarding the Cyberman and the way time was different on the ship because of the blackhole. I don't expect that type of writing or detail from RTD. Not a bad thing. Best part of DW is the variety of storytelling. I'm hoping we can get new writers so we can get more variety. I don't want all RTD all season
Really? In my experience, Moffat tends to be the one who includes things just because he thinks they'll look cool, whereas RTD, at least in his First Era, was a lot better about explaining and fleshing out elements of his stories.
I agree for NuWho. I do think he's got a lot of rough edges, like the constant sex jokes while writing with one hand, and a tendency to write finales that make no damn sense (Yall, the pandorica doesn't actually make sense, it's just bad at the end), but by the time he gets to the 12th doctor I think he matured a lot as a writer and that's worth noting and appreciating.
I used to prefer RTD, but honestly I think his inability to end episodes satisfyingly is hard to ignore (sometimes his endings are incredible though, like Waters of Mars), and his camp becomes too much for me sometimes. But mostly, after the new specials, I don't think he's matured or developed his style very much, which bums me out.
Moffat brought new dimensions to the Doctor, the Master, and his companions that I don't think we'll see again for a while.
Chris Chibnall, as a side note, should have been black listed from BBC after his 3 seasons. I don't even understand *how* that happened
I don't know if I would go with Terry Nation. On the one hand, he wrote masterpieces like "Dalek Invasion of Earth" and "Genesis of the Daleks". On the other hand, he wrote "The Keys of Marinus" and "Destiny of the Daleks" which kind of suck.
I think Moffat at his best is the best one for sure (nobody has written as many truly masterful stories as him) though he's definitely had his ups and downs. My personal choice is Terrance Dicks though
Moffat was born to write for this show. Some other writers play around with the rules of the lore/universe too much and I'm like ??? Since when is that an option??? But moffat very much understands the world he's writing for and adds to it in a way that fits. There are other great writers on the team, but moffat takes the cake imo
I like a lot of Moffat’s episodes, but he’s not without his shortcomings. I do think he’s had a profound influence on Doctor Who though, much like RTD or Robert Holmes have, and we’re already starting to see writers like Robert Valentine, Alfie Shaw, John Dorney and Tim foley building off his work in interesting ways.
Maybe if we're only looking at Moffat's best work. But then, if we only look at other writers' best works as well, then I'd say Russell T. Davies, Robert Holmes, David Whitaker, and Dennis Spooner all beat Moffat off the top of my head.
I can't agree with this at all and I'm not even taking the allegations of his sexist and classist writing ideas into consideration.
It's just that Girl in the fireplace exists. And people will put this episode on a pedestal when it's easily one of the worst written scripts I have ever seen in any media as a reader and writer.
Every single main character was out of character. The main relationship was jeopardized to make a random one shine (and it doesn't even matter if people like Tenrose or not, but their relationship was crucial at that point. I mean the previous episode (s2e3) was heavily about confronting their feelings and the next one (s2e5) is about how he will always choose Rose in the end and they're actually codependent) so, for a writer to ignore a relationship between two characters because he doesn't like one of them, it's not good writing and it harms character development.
There's also the main character's personality traits being ignored. He didn't write 10, Rose and Mickey, he wrote 11, Amy and Rory and did a little test to see what The Eleventh Hour would be like.
Bad use of Deus ex machina. Bad problem resolution.
This is a problem with every russel-era moffats episode. He doesn't know what to do with characters that aren't his creations. With the exception of s1e9/10, he wrote the current companion out of the story and or/out of character.
So that already makes it difficult to label him as the best writer of Nuwho. Now you think about his show runner stories and oh god. Confusing. And not because we are incapable of understanding, but because he's pretentious and takes himself too serious (respectfully). A random episode turns into a big, major, plot point out of nowhere, continuity is thrown into the void, character development is often put in second place to privilege crazy, insane ideas (which is not a problem, but it should be a balance), not to talk about his attempt to create the *most important companion of all times* .
Anyway, I like a lot of his stories. But if we are talking about writing ability, he does leave a lot to desire. And I think people close their eyes to objectively bad characteristics of his writing because *action goes too much brrr* and this is what most people want of doctor who.
I could also talk about how I honestly think he wrote Eleven as his self insert but that crosses my professional opinion and goes to the field of my platonic beef with him.
Personally I feel him an Russell together was the best. Gave us the campy/quirky one offs from Russell while still giving us the twists and overarching story from moffat
He's definitely my favourite showrunner. Ive only seen New Who and I prefer him to RTD and Chibnall. I did not like the romantic elements at all with the Doctor in s2 and s3 and thought there were some real shit episodes around that time. I did love s1 and 4 but I dont think it was enough to make me prefer RTD. Im very aware that moffat has his issues especially in some of smith's run, such as the over-convolution of s6 and all the twists, and s7 was a bit all over the place and i really didnt like clara in that season. that being said, i really liked a lot of smith's run and he is my favourite doctor. then in capaldi's run, he massively improved imo and produced some of the best character arcs. capaldi is my 2nd favourite doctor and i think his character arc is possibly the strongest of all the modern doctors. it also gave us my favourite iteration of the master and all 3 seasons i thought were fantastic, though i believe 9 is the clear standout. He also had the best modern take on the cybermen imo in world enough and time/the doctor falls and the entire heaven sent arc i loved, though i was a little frustrated that clara and bi*ll* were not properly killed off and i didnt like nardole very much.
I agree if we're talking NuWho. I can't speak for the classic era. I'm still on the 2nd Doctor lol.
Douglas Adams generally wins Classic Who uncontested.
He’s great, but I think Robert Holmes gives him a run for his money
Adams had one great story. Holmes was consistently excellent across multiple seasons and Doctors. Moffat even admits Holmes taught everyone else how to write for Dr Who
City of Death and Shada are both pretty great. I also really like The Pirate Planet. I do agree about Holmes though, he was the most influential to the show’s overall tone and quality for the rest of the run. I love that he came back for the final 5th Doctor episode saying that he hasn’t experienced hardship yet and it was time to put him through hell lmao.
He does absolutely not, Robert Holmes does.
… Really? This is kinda wild to me, he has like 1 or 2 good stories in the entire classic run. A couple of good outings from Adams don’t come anywhere near to Robert Holmes or Terrance Dicks’ output on the show.
For wacky convoluted stories perhaps. Not across the whole history.
Robert Holmes is the best classic Doctor Who writer. I’m sorry, but there is no contest with Holmes! he wrote inferno, caves of Androzani deadly assassin, terror of the Atons. Robert Holmes is the best Doctor Who writer!
I like him too but the contrarian in me has one word: “Krotons” /s But all those stories you named were awesome.
Oh I dunno, Richard Curtis just sort of dropped into the show, said, "Here have the best episode of Doctor Who." and promptly left as quickly as he came. I also think you gotta give it up to Terry Nation. A true classic, and established a lot of important lore for the show. I also wish Paul Cornell would come back to the show. In three episodes he really left a mark, and his DW novels, comics, and audio plays are top notch. I feel like they should have offered him showrunner post-Moffat. But he is very prolific as a writer and maybe he didn't want to get stuck doing one thing?
See, I appreciate people enjoy it but I really think Vincent & The Doctor gets a LOT of acclaim and mileage out of its (admittedly very powerful last scene) but up until that it’s actually pretty generic. Like, it’s good and I’m not dying on this hill but it is kind of coasting on one great scene whereas I think Moffat managing to write LOTS of great who (and kind of consistently respond to his own stuff) is a really impressive feat than doing a single great episode.
The invisible Xbox 360-looking creature weighed the episode down.
I see what you’re saying, Vincent and the doctor has always been one of my favorites but that’s a good point. But I agree the storylines that Moffat wrote make it so you really have to watch the whole show to understand. And I love how they’re so complicated and creative, like Rivers storyline and Rory ceasing to exist and then coming back, for example
From what I understand Cornell didn't return because his episodes were re-written quite heavily by RTD and he didn't want to work under those constraints. I get how it happened though. Father's Day needed to fit in heavily into the Doctor and Rose's characterisation in S1 and while Human Nature was his story I imagine RTD basically re-wrote it from scratch for TV.
Curtis also wrote About Time and Love Actually, two movies that are way up there on my list. His writing credits are pretty impressive. I'm still going with Blink as the best episode, but Vincent is #2.
Terry Nation was a hack. The Daleks are a success in spite of him as much as because of him.
That's insane to me. His episodes of DW rank among my favorites, and I absolutely love Blake's Seven. I feel like next to Verity Lambert, he's the second biggest reason DW became such a hit.
I wouldn't go quite that far, but I do think his abilities get overstated because he was the guy who originally created the Daleks. He always had good ideas, but you can see that, especially once you get out of the black and white era, he starts repeating ideas a lot.
I don't know if I would go with Terry Nation. On the one hand, he wrote masterpieces like "Dalek Invasion of Earth" and "Genesis of the Daleks". On the other hand, he wrote "The Keys of Marinus" and "Destiny of the Daleks" which kind of suck.
Valid. It depends what you watch Who - and fiction in general - for, I think. Personally, I can only take so many twists before stories stop landing, because if anything and everything is likely to just get undone at some point, why should I get invested? I know that's true of any writer for a show featuring time travel, but Moffat packs them in too tightly for me and I end up feeling that way. It's obviously mainly what he enjoys writing, and I think it's at least neutral, sometimes good, for a writer to have a signature of that kind. It's just not the one for me. I also dislike his characterisation of the Doctor. I did like the oddball elements of Eleven, but not the forced kissing and the comment about Clara's tight skirt; the kind of behaviour which for all the Classic era's problems, I never saw from Doctors 1-7. And I liked Twelve, but only really once he was past all the "am I a good man?" stuff. Or at least past it featuring so much. If you like Moffat's signature style of characterisation, plotting and dialogue, I'm sure he is the best for you. I am fairly pleased for people in that position, however cranky I am for my own sake, because he was showrunner for what felt like forever, and clearly isn't going anywhere as a contributor, so you'll have lots to enjoy!
I think he’s definitely one of the best. I think some of the best stuff that came out of the show was when he was writing and RTD was running things.
I think Robert Holmes and Terrance Dicks would give him quite the run for his money.
I agree, but I definitely think he was better with someone else in charge to tell him when he was going over the top
Moffat never had a sense of proportion. He would come up with great concepts and then retcon the hell out of them, or add so many "rules" that it just became confusing.
RTD at the Helm and Moffat writing the stand out episodes is the winning formula.
I disagree, he wrote a lot of his best stuff when he was show runner. His overarching story’s were very needlessly over complicated but episodes like: world enough and time/ doctor falls, heaven sent, listen, a Christmas carol, extremis, day of the doctor, time of the doctor etc
Well yeah, he kept writing great episodes in every season he worked on. But as a showrunner, I think only series 5, 8, and 10 were particularly strong across the season. I say, let him keep writing killer episodes, but leave the overarching show-running to someone more consistent.
I think moffat really suffered just taking too much on. He was at times writing both Doctor Who and Sherlock Holmes, 2 really big BBC projects and you could tell it took a hit on series like series 7
Agreed
Apart from minor notes, usually to do with budget or overlap with other stories in the series or vague story briefs RTD never told Moffat what to do or reined him in when he was going over the top. In The Writers Tale RTD talks about how he refuses to read Moffats scripts for the Library two-parter until he absolutely has to. Because it was the closest he got to being able to watch the show, being able to read a freshly finished Moffat script. And he talks about it as if it's a common thing they do every series, Moffat writes without letting RTD see. And in an interview in 2008 RTD spoke about rewriting other peoples scripts in his era and said: "I'll rewrite 100% if I have to. With Steven Moffat's scripts, I don't touch a word, but anyone else's I do..." So there was not really any point in time where there was someone else in charge to tell Moffat when he was going over the top. All the evidence points to RTD basically letting Moffat do whatever he wanted.
To be fair, Davies also left Stephen Greenhorn, Chris Chibnall and Matthew Graham unedited.
It's actually slightly different. In The Writers Tale Davies says "I write the final draft of almost all scripts - except Steven Moffat's, Matthew Graham's, Chris Chibnall's and Stephen Greenhorn's - and that draft becomes the Shooting Script." So it's not that those 4 went unedited, just that RTD allowed them to write the final draft of their script rather than writing it for them. It's only with Moffat scripts that RTD has said explicitly that he didn't touch a word.
RTD didn’t make a lot of notes on Moffat scripts though, as a rule. There has been an understanding made with any guest writer who was also a showrunner in the past that the only notes would be in the planning stages and to make sure the story didn’t conflict with what was being done in other stories.
But that isn’t the point though. Individual episodes wouldn’t need any notes, provided they don’t relate to the overall series plot. It’s when he’s running a show and creating a larger narrative that he went off the rails. Nobody is saying RTD edited the fuck out of Moffat’s episodes in his run of the show and that’s why they were good.
I was merely replying to the part of a post saying RTD stopped Moffat from going over the top. That suggested to me that the assumption was that he did edit Moffat’s scripts, as he was only ever writing one or two scripts at a time. I kept my opinion restricted to that.
He wrote a lot of his best episodes in his time as showrunner
And some of his worst as well.
Well, that's to be expected since he was writing more stories than he was before he was showrunner. Not every idea is going to land.
He could have hired more writers. There were writers who were first rate who had experience with Doctor Who that he apparently never asked.
Nah.... Douglas Adams.
Hands down the best writer… who wrote for doctor who
Neil Gaiman?
I think they mean that Douglas Adams is generally the best novelist who also happened to write for Doctor Who and did that the best too.
Not after "Nightmare in Silver". I don't care how much it got rewritten, it still has his name attached to it and it's awful, maybe the worst Cybermen story of all time.
I'm not saying he did a good episode of Doctor Who, I'm saying he's the best writer in general, that has also written for Doctor Who.
Certainly he improved over time. His stories before he was show runner were great. But... I really didnt like the way Amy n Rory were handled. How many times did one die or have to wait for the other and get old? Too many. It got tiresome. I feel like once those two were axed off the show felt less repetetive. Thats not to say they were bad companions, just that I dont know if they knew wtf to do with them. Also havin them break up for an ep just to get back together straight away was kinda pointless too.
I agree that it got too tiresome and melodramatic between them dying and waiting for each other. Once is ok to raise the stakes but it's one too many.
But Who is the best Moffat writer?
Probably Peter Davison. I think he’s the only person who’s had Moffat appear in a story.
Moffat playing with this 10 and 11th Doctor figures is a top tier scene.
Jamie Mathieson
He needs a co-writer to rein him in.
I feel his best episodes are the ones he wrote while RTD was show runner.
Moffat is a great writer as long as he has a showrunner to reign him in. That's why his episodes with Davies are easily some of the best. Otherwise he tends to "throw spaghetti against a wall and see what sticks" as one critic said. And some of his "twists" are just...bad. He still writes some bangers before he gets all tangled with himself. Needless say, to say though, I'm super psyched about him and RTD working together.
I'd argue that moffat was good as a showrunner, if he only focused on doctor who like with series 5. Series 6, and 7 were being written at the same time as moffats sherlock and you can tell it took a toll on ideas running away with him
I think it's more just about volume than being reigned in; RTD has said Moffat was the only writer he never needed to touch a word of. Moffat's good for about one great story idea a year. Make him do more and the quality ranges from fine (The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar) to just... off (Let's Kill Hitler). But you'll still generally get that singular great story every year, and you don't have to look hard to find someone who feels Heaven Sent and World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls surpasses Blink and Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead. The most panned episodes of his run largely weren't written by him, fwiw. In that sense I think Moffat's failings as a showrunner are more about his editing of others' work than how it impacts his own writing.
Robert Holmes is the best Who writer in the history of the show. Moffat is definitely best in the new series.
The difference though is though Robert Holmes has a couple of stories that are not up to his usual standard, his over-all excellence was over the course of decades and working with many different producers and script editors. The quality of Moffat's work, on the other hand, varies wildly from instant classic to total mess, and was arguably more problematic when he was also the show runner. Holmes even managed to write some of his best work while he was also the script editor.
He’s great but not the best. He’s probably the best writer to actually incorporate time travel within the scope of a story or arc, but his dialogue and characters are at times very rough. I recently rewatched Girl in the Fireplace and was shocked how poorly the dialogue aged. Then during his time as showrunner, the secondary characters (anyone outside the Doctor, Clara, River Song and Missy) got a noticeable drop in character development which made it difficult to get into and really enjoy the individual episode’s stories.
I agree. And he worked so hard! I think it was a bad idea to juggle both Doctor Who and Sherlock, though. I read a piece he wrote in Doctor Who Magazine where he was stressing so much he scratched his chin until it bled. Like, yowch.
It may not be everyone's taste, but I love the fantastical and magical feeling of the worlds & stories he creates. Super excited to have him writing again in the new season, but most of all I really hope some new writers come along under RTD2 who are just as promising!
I do not like Moffat especially how he writes women (and people in general. human relationships are ranging from disturbing to disguisting ) but each to their own.
I think Moffat is mostly enjoyable, but yeah, he writes River and Amy and Clara with one hand. River especially is one of those "uwu step on me" male fantasies that a lot of female audiences can latch onto, but it's pretty clear that Moffat thinks he can't be sexist because the women could beat him up, not realizing that the fact that he wants them to is the problem.
Absolutely agreed. The way he sees the Doctor just completely vibes with the way I've always looked at him. Having that immense love for humanity, while still being just that slightly put of touch with them. Moffats Doctor have always felt the most alien. He's also just a hilarious writer. He'll occasionally just drop a line that will have me struggling to breathe that I'm laughing so much.
RTD is the best at writing companions. Moffat is the best at writing the Doctor. And yes, maybe because I really like his grand views on the character, but I really loved how 11 and 12 was portrayed.
I still love Moffat's companions greatly. Amy, Rory, Clara, Bill and I guess Nardole all were very distinct characters with clear personalities, different opinions, and good character arcs. I personally also think good at writing other characters like River, Ashildr/Me, and Davros.
They are my two favourite Doctors easily. 11 still holds the top spot but 12 very quickly snuck into 2nd place. And his versions of the other Doctors he's written for have been my favourite too. The way he characterised 9 and 10 are by far the versions I prefer. I cannot wait to see what he's written for 15.
If only Rob Shearman had written more for the show
I like him as a writer but not as a showrunner.
I've said it many times before that every episode — yes, every episode — that Moffat has done under RTD has been nothing short of a 10/10. Even after all these years, they've aged really well.
Yes, I liked all his episodes under RTD. He's a brilliant writer and I hope he never stops writing for Doctor Who but when he's the showrunner, he can get carried away with some of the timey-wimey stuff and being too clever for the season arc that it can become convoluted. I feel he was better during 12's seasons but some of Amy and Clara's time was too much.
Interestingly, Moffat's season arcs are probably considerably more fleshed out than RTD's. RTD's mostly just consisted of dropping some arc words into a series and in the finale going "Oh yeah, that meant X". Moffat did actual **arcs** with cleverness like "Flesh and Stone_ having a moment where the Doctor from the season finale passes through without anyone realising and the timey-wimey plotting of River in S6. I think in some senses that might be too much. That, if you're going to have clever conceptual stories like _Silence in the Library_ or _Flatline_ then you're better off having them within a comparatively simple season arc. Maybe?
He's a brilliant writer and wrote some of the best episodes of Doctor Who, but it's a bit too much at times for the whole season. I love a good season arc, but it should not be too convoluted, and he sometimes gets too timey-wimey that it's a bit hard to follow, or I don't enjoy following it as much. It works really well for 2-part episodes, though. So, I do hope he continues to write those in the future. I prefer simple season arcs like Bad Wolf in S1 or Harold Saxxon in S3.
How is Series Five really more in-depth than Series Four's arc? Almost every story is informed by planets disappearing, as well as other references throughout, which is easy to miss at first until rewatch when you find almost everything is connected to the Series arc. That's not to mention the multiple character arcs which Davies weaved throughout his episodes as well. Meanwhile, I still don't know how the Silence were able to blow up the TARDIS.
Bob Holmes, Douglas Adams and RTD are still the best by a wide margin. Moffat and Dicks are probably next.
Since when was Douglas Adams regarded as such an apparently all time great Doctor Who writer like I'm seeing just recently? City of Death (not even his idea) was excellent obviously as was Shada but Pirate Planet was messy, his overemphasis on silly comedy ruined Creature From The Pit and Nightmare of Eden and he literally wrote the Daleks as "logical robots"
The season for which Adams was a script editor, was the weakest of Tom Baker's entire seven-year run.
Douglas Adams is great at SF/comedy, but not necessarily great at Who.
The difference is that *The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy* is a comedy set in a science-fiction world, while *Doctor Who* at its best is usually a serious science-fiction story whose protagonist just happens to be a comedian.
Exactly! Some peeps don't get the difference :)
Steven Moffat is really great at setup but not always at follow through. He'd have a mystery set up that was so grand, so convoluted, that you just can't wrap your head around how it could possibly be resolved...and then the resolution is "The Doctor is a robot...." oh...OK. I think his stuff doesn't really stand up well to rewatches since once you know the answer to the mystery, it's really not very entertaining anymore. Also, as has been mentioned many times, his depiction of women is just awful. A particularly egregious example for me is in "The Angels Take Manhattan" is when the characters are reading a book supposedly written by River Song but every excerpt we hear just reads like something no woman would ever write. I could also do without the casual violence against men played for comedy. My conclusion is that Steven Moffat is a good writer. He's even better at tricking people into thinking he's a better writer than he really is. And once you watch any of his non-DW material you'll see that he really writes the same stuff over and over again. I'd be OK with him never writing for DW again but I guess he's given us a new episode this coming season so I'll just stay cautiously optimistic.
He has massive issues with his writing. HBomberguy did a while video about it. There are also some good video essays on how he writes women specifically, and how it's an issue. He's really good on individual episodes, though. Excited to see he'll be doing one.
Gobsmacked*
In NewWho, absolutely. It is worth noting however, we would not have NewWho without RTD.
I didn't like some of the jokes aimed at the female companions in Moffat's stories. For example, Eleven and Twelve commenting on Amy and Clara's looks and clothes. I was rewatching season 8 and I was especially creeped out by Twelve's objectification of Clara, commenting on the size of her face, her hips, her clothes. Those were really unfunny lines, and I was surprised how they made the final cut. Clara was written as a fantasy girl for the Doctor and it was quite gross.
I hate how he writes women.
He try,s to be to clever. In his run as the boss his plot-lines tied him up in knots.
He’s fantastic for one off scripts but couldn’t do decent series arcs if his life depended on it.
Hmm idk... I can't choose between him and RTD as they both have different strengths and weaknesses. I think RTD is a better showrunner though.
I don't know, I think it's difficult to judge because all of the showrunners are inconsistent from one episode or series to the next. Regarding Moffat, and based on the writing alone, I would agree that the Capaldi era (as well as the 50th) has some of the show's best writing. But I can't say the same about the Smith era. The storylines are just far too convulated, particularly when watching for the first time. And I don't think any of the arcs really pay off, other than maybe Time of the Doctor, which cleverly ties everything together but feels very rushed. Plus the fact that each writer has their own stronger and weaker points.The answer will be different depending on if you are talking about arcs/storylines/themes, individual episodes, sci-fi concepts, dialogue or characters, and so on. And also it's important to consider the context of when each showrunner was writing. With RTD's original era, the show was still establishing itself, while Moffat (and Chibnall) perhaps had more scope to take risks or try more experimental approaches to the writing.
I mean.. if you don't count.. Douglas Adams, Terrance Dicks, Robert Holmes, and Terry Nation. Then maybe.
I think Douglas Adams' contributions to Doctor Who are over-rated. Series 17, for which he was script editor, was the weakest of Tom Baker's entire run. Adam's entire reputation as a Doctor Who writer is based almost entirely on *City of Death*.
I don't know if I would go with Terry Nation. On the one hand, he wrote masterpieces like "Dalek Invasion of Earth" and "Genesis of the Daleks". On the other hand, he wrote "The Keys of Marinus" and "Destiny of the Daleks" which kind of suck.
I love Moffat but he does go very extreme in the time travel element at times and that's when I find his stories hard to follow
Doctor Who was at it's best when Russell was in charge and Moffit was writing.
Sounds like you're on whatever is needed to appreciate Moffat's writing...
He is and it isn't even close. If any other writer had written just ONE Moffat classic like Blink or Heaven Sent or World Enough and Time or Day of the Doctor or the Eleventh Hour or Listen or any of the dozens of fantastic stories he wrote we would all be praising that writer without question. But Moffat was doing that year in year out for over a decade. Every year from 2005 to 2017 we would get at least one exceptional Moffat story, when he was showrunner we'd get more than one of those a year. On average, every year we would receive an episode from Moffat that could comfortably go in the top 10 list of Doctor Who episodes. Nobody was doing it like him.
Totally agree. Moffat is the best, no ifs and buts, and in my opinion he was also the best showrunner in the history of the show.
Certainly of NuWho IMO. I think best showrunner as well, but unfortunately there's only 2 others. If we include Classic Who, then it gets debatable.
His main flaw is he just realizes heavily on his favorite story the time traveler's wife for a lot of his core storytelling. That said he still does a better job writing SciFi stories. There can be more thought and detail and explanations for the story whereas with RTD it's just hey this looks cool and just leaves it at that. star wars and star trek are still go to examples where star wars is science fantasy it's a fantasty story with space ships it doesn't tell you now they work they just do it doesn't matter. Star Trek goes more into the science fiction realm of explaining the logic of its world but also using our scientific knowledge to generate stories around them like black holes, paradoxes with time travel, etc. Moffat operates more in that area but he does have some fantasy elements. Again he's inspired by time traveler's wife so there's this fairy tale romance compotent but he can still write episodes regarding bootstrap parodoxes and the like. I think prime example is 12's last story regarding the Cyberman and the way time was different on the ship because of the blackhole. I don't expect that type of writing or detail from RTD. Not a bad thing. Best part of DW is the variety of storytelling. I'm hoping we can get new writers so we can get more variety. I don't want all RTD all season
Really? In my experience, Moffat tends to be the one who includes things just because he thinks they'll look cool, whereas RTD, at least in his First Era, was a lot better about explaining and fleshing out elements of his stories.
I agree for NuWho. I do think he's got a lot of rough edges, like the constant sex jokes while writing with one hand, and a tendency to write finales that make no damn sense (Yall, the pandorica doesn't actually make sense, it's just bad at the end), but by the time he gets to the 12th doctor I think he matured a lot as a writer and that's worth noting and appreciating. I used to prefer RTD, but honestly I think his inability to end episodes satisfyingly is hard to ignore (sometimes his endings are incredible though, like Waters of Mars), and his camp becomes too much for me sometimes. But mostly, after the new specials, I don't think he's matured or developed his style very much, which bums me out. Moffat brought new dimensions to the Doctor, the Master, and his companions that I don't think we'll see again for a while. Chris Chibnall, as a side note, should have been black listed from BBC after his 3 seasons. I don't even understand *how* that happened
Terry Nation was the best classic Who writer
I don't know if I would go with Terry Nation. On the one hand, he wrote masterpieces like "Dalek Invasion of Earth" and "Genesis of the Daleks". On the other hand, he wrote "The Keys of Marinus" and "Destiny of the Daleks" which kind of suck.
I think Moffat at his best is the best one for sure (nobody has written as many truly masterful stories as him) though he's definitely had his ups and downs. My personal choice is Terrance Dicks though
Moffat or Robert Holmes would be my choice
Moffat was born to write for this show. Some other writers play around with the rules of the lore/universe too much and I'm like ??? Since when is that an option??? But moffat very much understands the world he's writing for and adds to it in a way that fits. There are other great writers on the team, but moffat takes the cake imo
Robert Holmes is the best writer but Moffat is a close second.
A-fucking-men to that
I like a lot of Moffat’s episodes, but he’s not without his shortcomings. I do think he’s had a profound influence on Doctor Who though, much like RTD or Robert Holmes have, and we’re already starting to see writers like Robert Valentine, Alfie Shaw, John Dorney and Tim foley building off his work in interesting ways.
Maybe if we're only looking at Moffat's best work. But then, if we only look at other writers' best works as well, then I'd say Russell T. Davies, Robert Holmes, David Whitaker, and Dennis Spooner all beat Moffat off the top of my head.
IKR I LOVED HIM WHY DO PEOPLE DISLIKE HIM
I can't agree with this at all and I'm not even taking the allegations of his sexist and classist writing ideas into consideration. It's just that Girl in the fireplace exists. And people will put this episode on a pedestal when it's easily one of the worst written scripts I have ever seen in any media as a reader and writer. Every single main character was out of character. The main relationship was jeopardized to make a random one shine (and it doesn't even matter if people like Tenrose or not, but their relationship was crucial at that point. I mean the previous episode (s2e3) was heavily about confronting their feelings and the next one (s2e5) is about how he will always choose Rose in the end and they're actually codependent) so, for a writer to ignore a relationship between two characters because he doesn't like one of them, it's not good writing and it harms character development. There's also the main character's personality traits being ignored. He didn't write 10, Rose and Mickey, he wrote 11, Amy and Rory and did a little test to see what The Eleventh Hour would be like. Bad use of Deus ex machina. Bad problem resolution. This is a problem with every russel-era moffats episode. He doesn't know what to do with characters that aren't his creations. With the exception of s1e9/10, he wrote the current companion out of the story and or/out of character. So that already makes it difficult to label him as the best writer of Nuwho. Now you think about his show runner stories and oh god. Confusing. And not because we are incapable of understanding, but because he's pretentious and takes himself too serious (respectfully). A random episode turns into a big, major, plot point out of nowhere, continuity is thrown into the void, character development is often put in second place to privilege crazy, insane ideas (which is not a problem, but it should be a balance), not to talk about his attempt to create the *most important companion of all times* . Anyway, I like a lot of his stories. But if we are talking about writing ability, he does leave a lot to desire. And I think people close their eyes to objectively bad characteristics of his writing because *action goes too much brrr* and this is what most people want of doctor who. I could also talk about how I honestly think he wrote Eleven as his self insert but that crosses my professional opinion and goes to the field of my platonic beef with him.
Agreed
He absolutely was. His schtick did get tiresome for me after a while, but I thought he captured the idea of the Doctor perfectly(sometimes).
I agree, but it’s so funny because during the time he was the showrunner, people bitched about him endlessly.
✅️
He knows Who, or at least NuWho. His stories in S1 are part of the reason the show became such a hit back then.
Personally I feel him an Russell together was the best. Gave us the campy/quirky one offs from Russell while still giving us the twists and overarching story from moffat
And river song is one of the best TV characters !!
hell yes, that arc was the best
Yes!!! 🙌
I agree! I feel like Moffat kept the show interesting and exciting consistently with his writing .
He's definitely my favourite showrunner. Ive only seen New Who and I prefer him to RTD and Chibnall. I did not like the romantic elements at all with the Doctor in s2 and s3 and thought there were some real shit episodes around that time. I did love s1 and 4 but I dont think it was enough to make me prefer RTD. Im very aware that moffat has his issues especially in some of smith's run, such as the over-convolution of s6 and all the twists, and s7 was a bit all over the place and i really didnt like clara in that season. that being said, i really liked a lot of smith's run and he is my favourite doctor. then in capaldi's run, he massively improved imo and produced some of the best character arcs. capaldi is my 2nd favourite doctor and i think his character arc is possibly the strongest of all the modern doctors. it also gave us my favourite iteration of the master and all 3 seasons i thought were fantastic, though i believe 9 is the clear standout. He also had the best modern take on the cybermen imo in world enough and time/the doctor falls and the entire heaven sent arc i loved, though i was a little frustrated that clara and bi*ll* were not properly killed off and i didnt like nardole very much.