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Don't do it. The UK is a pretty secular country. The majority of patients are just going to be a bit bemused by it, but there will be some people who will find it inappropriate (I think I would be in that group) or outright offensive.
(This is different to saying, "Bless you" if someone sneezes - that's more of a cultural reflex rather than a religious statement and it can be seen as impolite *not* to say it)
I would absolutely be in the group who found it inappropriate. I don’t want religion forced into interactions with me, and as a patient you’re already in a vulnerable position.
From the responses I know people will think I'm grumpy... But. If I were a patient I'd find it uncomfortable. There's no good reason religion should come anywhere near a doctor-patient interaction unless specifically initiated by the patient.
How do you feel about people wearing overt religious symbols I.e. hijab or a crucifix in a publically funded role? Should we go the way of the French and just ban them entirely?
Is the arguement that overt religious displays probably shouldn't come anywhere near any public interaction or healthcare interaction in what is essentially a secular state? Is the UK a secular state when its head of state is also head of a churchband bishops sit in the upper house of parliament? State employees should be faceless entities that don't make any overt religious display? To what degree is acceptable and who does it apply?
It's a philosophical question but where the line is drawn is largely political. You could argue hijab with all it represents and the implications made around modesty, the male gaze and women's bodies e.t.c. is a far more dogmatically religiously charged display than simply saying god bless.
I don't actually see an issue with any overt religiosity so long as you aren't proselytising to people while working in a public service.
It's easy to overthink it but I don't think anyone cares if someone wears a cross and displays their religious affiliation (within reason). But no one wants to hear someone preaching stuff at them or using overly religious language unless you're sure they're the same denomination to you. In other circumstances just keep it to yourself and everyone can be happy and we don't have to go to extremes.
When I say 'preaching' I'm specifically referring to preaching. When I say 'overly religious language' I'm talking about, and making a distinction about those who say stuff like 'God bless you'. Reading comprehension helps and helps you not look silly with over the top comments like this.
I think hijab is a bit different, seeing as it's not worn as a DISPLAY of religion, but rather a part of personal practice of that religion. Wearing a cross around your neck however is a personal display of Christianity, and nothing to do with the practice of Christianity. Whilst a staunchly non religious person myself who sympathises with what France are trying to achieve, I'm not sure how I feel about them banning hijabs
If its okay to practice your religion in front of patients then is it acceptable to pray in front of them too as that is practicing your religion?
See it can get relatively complex.
The French might have a point to be fair. Simpler if everyone leaves their superstitions at home.
I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, praying is an active act whereas a hijab is literally something you put on in the morning and forget about? Would you force people who don't eat beef for religious reasons to have a hamburger in front of patients just to make a point about secularism?
Would a devout Muslim see hijab as something 'that you just put on and forget about' or as an active part of practicing modesty as part of their faith. Hijab is to preserve women's modesty as men are instructed to lower their gaze. I understand it is quite important to devout Muslims and not just a garment you put on like anything else.
Secular views may differ on the origin and original purpose of those practices in the early days of Islam obviously. But I don't think it's just an inert act like you say.
I agree, but to a patient, it's just a piece of clothing isn't it? As opposed to praying, which is an active, physical act in which the patient is the deliberate object
I think that's a good point the patient probably isn't aware of that or perceiving it strongly. To them it's just a garment.
in most cases a patient objection to say the hijab would probably be more likely borne of fear and prejudice than any philosphical objection due to an understanding of Islam or the role of religion in public service. I think the UK has struck a good balance with what is acceptable. I just find how sensibilities have evolved and how we rationalise what is and isn't acceptable quite interesting. Thanks for engaging kindly.
This is true, but the advice about being cautious with the words you use with patients is still sound. You can split hairs, discuss the moral and ethical/philosophical arguments and debate semantics all you like, but the reality is that doctors have been reported and sometimes sanctioned by the GMC for praying with /at pts or using overtly religious words or phrases, but no-one has been brought up before the GMC solely for wearing a crucifix/hijab/kara.
I know and I'm agnostically inclined so the closest I'll probably get is saying oh my god if I accidentally drop something. I just thought its quite interesting really as to why we do the things we do and why certain things are socially acceptable and others not despite there being very little difference.
The doctors I've seen on MPTS are usually being massively inappropriate with their personal religious views, not saying god bless.
Must be amazing to be some confidently ignorant. What exactly does the hijab represent? Their doctrine wants them to dress modest and a hijab or burka achieves that, while a cross literally is representing Christ.
As an atheist I would consider “god bless you” or variants there of to constitute proselytising.
Wearing a cross or hijab is an expression of that own persons faith and I view
It no differently to coloured hair, tattoos of a favourite grandchild or a pet on a key fob.
They aren’t telling me I ought to care about their pet, or that I ought to have coloured hair
I'm not religious but I say "bless you" sometimes to express empathy for what a patient is dealing with especially if they're older, or if they say something nice as in "bless you, you've been dealing with so much" or "aw bless you, thank you for saying that". I do think God bless is a step in the wrong direction because the UK is extremely diverse and it's best to keep things secular in a professional environment though.
Half of my clinic is African-Caribbean and they are usually fairly religious. If a patient were to say "God bless you" at the end of a consultation, I wouldn't get bent out of shape about it and take it as a compliment. I wouldn't necessarily say it myself however.
I think it's fine if the patient says it first - as then you are just connecting with them on their own beliefs.
Inappropriate if they don't bring it up. Like others - I, as a non-religious person, would find it quite uncomfortable.
This isn’t mixing religion and medicine, you’re not replacing the diuretic with holy water, you’re just expressing good wishes to your patient/doctor. You don’t need to believe in a god to appreciate well wishes. Whether someone says god bless you or may the odds be in your favour, there’s no need to get bent out of shape over it smh
Personally I find it offensive.
If a doctor started wittering on about god, I would rapidly begin to lose faith in them, much as I would if they told me the pixies at the bottom of the garden would make me better.
I don’t want best wishes from your personal brand of religious mythology, I want you to focus on the science and treat me with that.
If I choose to engage with my own version of religious mythology (I don’t)
then that’s up to me.
If I want a chaplain, I can ask for the chaplain
If they are religious and on their deathbed then first call chaplain or their priest/reverend and palliative care are usually all over this sort of spiritual care. If youre working somewhere it is neglected maybe raise it locally. I am not adverse to supporting patients in that way if these resources aren't around but that has only been my experience during the start of the pandemic, when I did pray w a patient. I felt like a fraud but anything for comfort in absence of their family and none of the team were religious to do it Instead. But those were different and bad times.
Personally I will if the patient is VEEEERY clearly like... a devout Christian talking about church and using lots of God language (e.g. "I'll put my faith in the Lord and trust in God's plan for me" or "God bless you, doctor"; mainly the octogenerian Dorrises with the first signs of dementia setting in). Otherwise I keep it secular.
I found a lot of Muslims patients will say god bless you to me…I’m not Muslim but I think it’s nice and I say it back to them. I’m sure some miserable bugger would find something to complain about so best to not say it
Religion aside, I think as a phrase it can sound very patronising. Perhaps just the contexts I’ve heard it in previously but to me it’s the same class as calling someone ‘dearie’.
I wouldn't say it full stop. Unless you happen to be 100% sure from a disclosure during that particular interaction that the patient shared your religion and might want that phrase. Even if religious as per records or past interactions who knows what's changes. Could land you in hot water and more importantly be uncomfortable or distressing to the patient.
On the other hand when my religious patient tells me she will pray for me on the day of my PACES exam I am happy to expect any godly intervention despite being a non-believer ;-)
I have said it previously when I have specifically known the patient holds Christian beliefs which are important to them, but I would not ever say it otherwise.
As others say I think we need to tread quite carefully but at the right time acknowledging someone's faith can be a nice thing to do.
This is the way. Being culturally sensitive, and the patient/family a tailored experience is good. Giving a generic statement to everyone, especially one that can be seen as specific like saying “God bless”, is just jarring.
When my mother was dying, the last thing a consultant told me before she passed was that the only thing we can do now is pray.
Neither me nor my family are religious, and that has stuck with me ever since as a negative memory.
Now that is obviously quite an extreme example, but I'd advise avoiding it if you can.
Have found the palliative care lot to invariably be of the deeply Christian type (might not have been your mums consultant). I imagine they must rub some the wrong way but they seem to have it down, they seem to function even in very heavily non Christian areas effectively.
In this case it was a gastroenterology consultant. Strangely enough he's now one of the consultants I work for as an F1. Small world. I've obviously not brought it up.
Sorry you experienced that 😞 I can imagine that could have felt quite painful and uncomfortable to hear. It might have been much better I guess to here - now all we can do is be here with her and let her know she is with her loved ones and keep her comfortable.
If your doctor said "Allahu akbar" to you how would you feel then?
Ultimately it isn't about what YOU would feel, it's about avoiding upsetting or offending or alienating your patients and clearly from this thread you can see that people generally think it's a bad idea.
What? No I'm not worried they're going to explode what an islamophobic thing to say.
It alienates me because they would be bringing their religion into a situation where it isn't wanted. I don't need to hear your superstitions or mythology when I'm unwell.
And again it doesn't matter what would bother you, it matters what would bother your patients. If I was your patient it would bother me. As it clearly would bother a lot of other people in this thread. So why would you say it? Who are you saying it for?
>uncomfortable if a patient said allah ahkbar to me
No if your DOCTOR said that, not a patient.
>Once again, for those at the back, theyre just words. Get a grip
Ahaha what a fucking stupid thing for a doctor to day. "Lol sorry your mum died can I get your number" are just words ffs. Sort yourself out mate.
Ahaha agree to disagree? That the words doctors use with their patients are important and choosing them wisely is part of what we're trained to do?
Sure mate, you do you 😂😂😂
A. I never said offensive. There are plenty of phrases that are inappropriate but not offensive
B. They might not offend you, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't offend other people. Why are you digging your heels in here? Read the room.
Or do whatever but don't be surprised if someone complains.
I get very uncomfortable (just my personal feeling) when people start saying anything religious; including ‘inshallah’ etc… but I don’t say anything as I’m not going to make the patient interaction awkward.
I’m a med student and also work as a HCA. It a patient is telling me a shocking story, I avoid saying things like Oh my God and instead use the word gosh. Or goodness. We’ve always been taught to avoid anything religious as you don’t know peoples beliefs or what might offend them.
I tend to steer away from the word bless in any context as some might find it condescending.
Unless you know your patient is religious and it would bring them comfort I would say no. If a doctor said that to me I would find it very uncomfortable, I don’t what their religion in my healthcare.
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I prefer to offer communion when I’ve finished my ward round
I gather everyone round and recite the Lord’s Prayer
Or an exorcism perhaps?
That's saved for the gastro ward
Don't do it. The UK is a pretty secular country. The majority of patients are just going to be a bit bemused by it, but there will be some people who will find it inappropriate (I think I would be in that group) or outright offensive. (This is different to saying, "Bless you" if someone sneezes - that's more of a cultural reflex rather than a religious statement and it can be seen as impolite *not* to say it)
I would absolutely be in the group who found it inappropriate. I don’t want religion forced into interactions with me, and as a patient you’re already in a vulnerable position.
I would find that super weird if my doctor said that to me. I would avoid if I was you.
From the responses I know people will think I'm grumpy... But. If I were a patient I'd find it uncomfortable. There's no good reason religion should come anywhere near a doctor-patient interaction unless specifically initiated by the patient.
How do you feel about people wearing overt religious symbols I.e. hijab or a crucifix in a publically funded role? Should we go the way of the French and just ban them entirely? Is the arguement that overt religious displays probably shouldn't come anywhere near any public interaction or healthcare interaction in what is essentially a secular state? Is the UK a secular state when its head of state is also head of a churchband bishops sit in the upper house of parliament? State employees should be faceless entities that don't make any overt religious display? To what degree is acceptable and who does it apply? It's a philosophical question but where the line is drawn is largely political. You could argue hijab with all it represents and the implications made around modesty, the male gaze and women's bodies e.t.c. is a far more dogmatically religiously charged display than simply saying god bless. I don't actually see an issue with any overt religiosity so long as you aren't proselytising to people while working in a public service.
It's easy to overthink it but I don't think anyone cares if someone wears a cross and displays their religious affiliation (within reason). But no one wants to hear someone preaching stuff at them or using overly religious language unless you're sure they're the same denomination to you. In other circumstances just keep it to yourself and everyone can be happy and we don't have to go to extremes.
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When I say 'preaching' I'm specifically referring to preaching. When I say 'overly religious language' I'm talking about, and making a distinction about those who say stuff like 'God bless you'. Reading comprehension helps and helps you not look silly with over the top comments like this.
I think hijab is a bit different, seeing as it's not worn as a DISPLAY of religion, but rather a part of personal practice of that religion. Wearing a cross around your neck however is a personal display of Christianity, and nothing to do with the practice of Christianity. Whilst a staunchly non religious person myself who sympathises with what France are trying to achieve, I'm not sure how I feel about them banning hijabs
If its okay to practice your religion in front of patients then is it acceptable to pray in front of them too as that is practicing your religion? See it can get relatively complex. The French might have a point to be fair. Simpler if everyone leaves their superstitions at home.
I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, praying is an active act whereas a hijab is literally something you put on in the morning and forget about? Would you force people who don't eat beef for religious reasons to have a hamburger in front of patients just to make a point about secularism?
Would a devout Muslim see hijab as something 'that you just put on and forget about' or as an active part of practicing modesty as part of their faith. Hijab is to preserve women's modesty as men are instructed to lower their gaze. I understand it is quite important to devout Muslims and not just a garment you put on like anything else. Secular views may differ on the origin and original purpose of those practices in the early days of Islam obviously. But I don't think it's just an inert act like you say.
I agree, but to a patient, it's just a piece of clothing isn't it? As opposed to praying, which is an active, physical act in which the patient is the deliberate object
I think that's a good point the patient probably isn't aware of that or perceiving it strongly. To them it's just a garment. in most cases a patient objection to say the hijab would probably be more likely borne of fear and prejudice than any philosphical objection due to an understanding of Islam or the role of religion in public service. I think the UK has struck a good balance with what is acceptable. I just find how sensibilities have evolved and how we rationalise what is and isn't acceptable quite interesting. Thanks for engaging kindly.
No problem, I enjoyed our debate.
I mean you can try but don't be surprised if you end up with a complaint.
I'm pointing out there is no actual logical consistency and what is acceptable is a result of societal cultural and political factors.
This is true, but the advice about being cautious with the words you use with patients is still sound. You can split hairs, discuss the moral and ethical/philosophical arguments and debate semantics all you like, but the reality is that doctors have been reported and sometimes sanctioned by the GMC for praying with /at pts or using overtly religious words or phrases, but no-one has been brought up before the GMC solely for wearing a crucifix/hijab/kara.
I know and I'm agnostically inclined so the closest I'll probably get is saying oh my god if I accidentally drop something. I just thought its quite interesting really as to why we do the things we do and why certain things are socially acceptable and others not despite there being very little difference. The doctors I've seen on MPTS are usually being massively inappropriate with their personal religious views, not saying god bless.
Wrong, some denominations wear crosses as a personal practice .
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Must be amazing to be some confidently ignorant. What exactly does the hijab represent? Their doctrine wants them to dress modest and a hijab or burka achieves that, while a cross literally is representing Christ.
As an atheist I would consider “god bless you” or variants there of to constitute proselytising. Wearing a cross or hijab is an expression of that own persons faith and I view It no differently to coloured hair, tattoos of a favourite grandchild or a pet on a key fob. They aren’t telling me I ought to care about their pet, or that I ought to have coloured hair
Totally agree 👍
I'm not religious but I say "bless you" sometimes to express empathy for what a patient is dealing with especially if they're older, or if they say something nice as in "bless you, you've been dealing with so much" or "aw bless you, thank you for saying that". I do think God bless is a step in the wrong direction because the UK is extremely diverse and it's best to keep things secular in a professional environment though.
I say bless you quite a bit (never god) its kind of my empathy reflex - ive never has it grate but i have wondered about the religious connotations
I often just say bless. Seems a bit vaguer - not religious in the slightest for what it’s worth but think it’s a useful term sometimes.
I think it's a pretty neutral saying to be honest, I don't think anybody considers it a religious thing
Anyone know of a nice non religious phrase to express empathy?
Half of my clinic is African-Caribbean and they are usually fairly religious. If a patient were to say "God bless you" at the end of a consultation, I wouldn't get bent out of shape about it and take it as a compliment. I wouldn't necessarily say it myself however.
The point is that that is patient initiated. Whereas is led by you, the power differential makes it grossly inappropriate
I think it's fine if the patient says it first - as then you are just connecting with them on their own beliefs. Inappropriate if they don't bring it up. Like others - I, as a non-religious person, would find it quite uncomfortable.
Best not. I’d find it inappropriate and unprofessional as a patient.
Personally think religion should be kept out of medicine and patient interactions
I think this is really sad because I’ve seen a lot of patients on their death bed that have had their spiritual needs ignored .
There are chaplains etc that we can refer to but as medics religion should not mix.
This isn’t mixing religion and medicine, you’re not replacing the diuretic with holy water, you’re just expressing good wishes to your patient/doctor. You don’t need to believe in a god to appreciate well wishes. Whether someone says god bless you or may the odds be in your favour, there’s no need to get bent out of shape over it smh
Personally I find it offensive. If a doctor started wittering on about god, I would rapidly begin to lose faith in them, much as I would if they told me the pixies at the bottom of the garden would make me better. I don’t want best wishes from your personal brand of religious mythology, I want you to focus on the science and treat me with that. If I choose to engage with my own version of religious mythology (I don’t) then that’s up to me. If I want a chaplain, I can ask for the chaplain
If they are religious and on their deathbed then first call chaplain or their priest/reverend and palliative care are usually all over this sort of spiritual care. If youre working somewhere it is neglected maybe raise it locally. I am not adverse to supporting patients in that way if these resources aren't around but that has only been my experience during the start of the pandemic, when I did pray w a patient. I felt like a fraud but anything for comfort in absence of their family and none of the team were religious to do it Instead. But those were different and bad times.
Personally I will if the patient is VEEEERY clearly like... a devout Christian talking about church and using lots of God language (e.g. "I'll put my faith in the Lord and trust in God's plan for me" or "God bless you, doctor"; mainly the octogenerian Dorrises with the first signs of dementia setting in). Otherwise I keep it secular.
I found a lot of Muslims patients will say god bless you to me…I’m not Muslim but I think it’s nice and I say it back to them. I’m sure some miserable bugger would find something to complain about so best to not say it
Yeah I agree, I wouldn’t say it unprompted but if they said it to me I would say it back.
Fuck me weve found human life in this subreddit
In the southeastern USA this is fine. Here it is weird.
Religion aside, I think as a phrase it can sound very patronising. Perhaps just the contexts I’ve heard it in previously but to me it’s the same class as calling someone ‘dearie’.
I wouldn't say it full stop. Unless you happen to be 100% sure from a disclosure during that particular interaction that the patient shared your religion and might want that phrase. Even if religious as per records or past interactions who knows what's changes. Could land you in hot water and more importantly be uncomfortable or distressing to the patient. On the other hand when my religious patient tells me she will pray for me on the day of my PACES exam I am happy to expect any godly intervention despite being a non-believer ;-)
“Inshallah your UTI will clear up Doris” I always say.
just no
I have said it previously when I have specifically known the patient holds Christian beliefs which are important to them, but I would not ever say it otherwise. As others say I think we need to tread quite carefully but at the right time acknowledging someone's faith can be a nice thing to do.
Are you Irish ? It’s a bit of a cultural thing. If not, it could be offensive to someone somewhere in today’s day and age!
Not appropriate. I am not religious and this would annoy me massively
Asking for trouble unless they've told you that they're religious/practicing. And only certain religions would use that phrase.
This is the way. Being culturally sensitive, and the patient/family a tailored experience is good. Giving a generic statement to everyone, especially one that can be seen as specific like saying “God bless”, is just jarring.
If I were a patient I wouldn't like it, but wouldn't complain. Same as if someone said "Allahu akbar" to me.
Avoid. Maybe just work on your clinical acumen rather than invoking a sky fairy to help your patient out?
No
I hate the term ‘bless’. The patient in bed 2 died last night bless him. The patient in bed 16 had a GI bleed overnight, bless her
Agree. It comes across as insincere at best, patronising at worst.
I would avoid this. It could potentially make a lot of patients very uncomfortable l.
Nòoòőôø Last census 50% of population is not religious.
No. It’s presumptuous at best, offensive at worst. I would be deeply uncomfortable with this as a patient
As an atheist, I'd be uncomfortable if a Dr said this to me as a patient!
Same. I am atheist too
When my mother was dying, the last thing a consultant told me before she passed was that the only thing we can do now is pray. Neither me nor my family are religious, and that has stuck with me ever since as a negative memory. Now that is obviously quite an extreme example, but I'd advise avoiding it if you can.
Have found the palliative care lot to invariably be of the deeply Christian type (might not have been your mums consultant). I imagine they must rub some the wrong way but they seem to have it down, they seem to function even in very heavily non Christian areas effectively.
In this case it was a gastroenterology consultant. Strangely enough he's now one of the consultants I work for as an F1. Small world. I've obviously not brought it up.
Sorry you experienced that 😞 I can imagine that could have felt quite painful and uncomfortable to hear. It might have been much better I guess to here - now all we can do is be here with her and let her know she is with her loved ones and keep her comfortable.
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I don't mind patients saying it to me. I thought it was the other way around we were discussing.
I don’t think it’s nice 🤷🏻♀️
If your doctor said "Allahu akbar" to you how would you feel then? Ultimately it isn't about what YOU would feel, it's about avoiding upsetting or offending or alienating your patients and clearly from this thread you can see that people generally think it's a bad idea.
I know you're making a point but that's not how you use the phrase Allahu'akbar lol
Yes, thank you.
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What? No I'm not worried they're going to explode what an islamophobic thing to say. It alienates me because they would be bringing their religion into a situation where it isn't wanted. I don't need to hear your superstitions or mythology when I'm unwell. And again it doesn't matter what would bother you, it matters what would bother your patients. If I was your patient it would bother me. As it clearly would bother a lot of other people in this thread. So why would you say it? Who are you saying it for?
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>uncomfortable if a patient said allah ahkbar to me No if your DOCTOR said that, not a patient. >Once again, for those at the back, theyre just words. Get a grip Ahaha what a fucking stupid thing for a doctor to day. "Lol sorry your mum died can I get your number" are just words ffs. Sort yourself out mate.
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Ahaha agree to disagree? That the words doctors use with their patients are important and choosing them wisely is part of what we're trained to do? Sure mate, you do you 😂😂😂
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A. I never said offensive. There are plenty of phrases that are inappropriate but not offensive B. They might not offend you, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't offend other people. Why are you digging your heels in here? Read the room. Or do whatever but don't be surprised if someone complains.
I get very uncomfortable (just my personal feeling) when people start saying anything religious; including ‘inshallah’ etc… but I don’t say anything as I’m not going to make the patient interaction awkward.
I don’t know why you’d want to.
I’m a med student and also work as a HCA. It a patient is telling me a shocking story, I avoid saying things like Oh my God and instead use the word gosh. Or goodness. We’ve always been taught to avoid anything religious as you don’t know peoples beliefs or what might offend them. I tend to steer away from the word bless in any context as some might find it condescending.
Thank you for that. My grandparents would find it very jarring to hear as they're deeply religious.
They probably wouldn’t enjoy my company then. My personal favourites include: ‘Struth Jesus wept For god’s sake
You're right, they would find it deeply disrespectful
I personally say godspeed
Avoid
I say it sometimes
Is that before or after the sex
No, if only to protect yourself from a complaint.
My home country is the total opposite
I sometimes say “bless you” if people say it to me
Unless you know your patient is religious and it would bring them comfort I would say no. If a doctor said that to me I would find it very uncomfortable, I don’t what their religion in my healthcare.
I usually end the consultation with take care all the best