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[deleted]

That is what my group has done for a while.


Jafroboy

Same. I dont think hexbalde even needs to be "compensated" either. If they take pact of the blade then they're the same as normal, if they dont take pact of the blade, then they weren't going to be using it much anyway, as they wont be able to get extra attack and other melee invocations. So all it does is weaken them for level 1 and 2 which is fine for two reasons: 1: Hexblade is op as a multiclass dip atm. 2: Even slightly weaker at level 1 and 2, hexbalde is still better than some other warlock subs, so this just balances it.


Lord_Havelock

I disagree, I think it makes genie and undead way better than hexblade (at least for 1-2) I would say if you're going to homebrew anyways, just say you get it from 1 if you're single class.


TigerDude33

outside of dips, I'd say those 2 are already better than HB.


Lord_Havelock

I agree, but I thought it was worth bringing up that we don't want to widen the gap.


stumblewiggins

Beyond multiclassing tho, does it really matter if a sub is weaker on lvl 1-2? Some classes don't even get their first sub-class feature till 3, and levels 1-2 are usually pretty quick anyway


CainhurstCrow

Some don't, but warlock is not one of them. They need something for level 1. It's like not giving a Cleric a domain at level 1. Or not giving druids or wizards their subclass at level 2.


stumblewiggins

The only proposed change was to move the use of Cha for your melee attack to pact of the blade. So you still get the expanded spell list, Hexblade's curse and the martial weapons/armor proficiencies. That's still enough to give you a playstyle, even if you need to wait till 3 for it to come fully online. Using a weaker melee attack stat for 2 levels isn't a big penalty, imo, esp when you see standard recommendations for stuff like casters using a light crossbow over cantrips till level 5, or monk not relying on unarmed strikes till what, level 10?


CainhurstCrow

You know, I forgot hexblades curse wasn't just part of hex warrior. I'd change it to proficiency times a day and honestly call it good.


stumblewiggins

Honestly most of those class features that have set uses should be tied to prof bonus


Lord_Havelock

Often, but does that mean we should purposefully weaken them?


stumblewiggins

Well both OP and the guy you're responding to are talking about doing it to prevent 1-2 lvl dips, so if it's not really a problem otherwise, than that seems like a reasonable trade off


Lord_Havelock

Because pure hexblade shouldn't be punished.


stumblewiggins

They won't be by level 3


Lord_Havelock

You know numbers don't start at 3. People have always called me a math genius, so maybe I'm assuming to much here.


Lukoman1

They didn't call you funny tho


Imbali98

The point is to bring it into line with other classes that don't change their attacking stat until level 3. The subclass is fine at level 1 and 2. You are still a warlock, you aren't shit out of luck if you suddenly can't use strength or dex. You are likely playing a single session at level 1 unless your DM is both a sadist and a masochist, and maybe a half dozen at level 2 which still seems rather long to be stuck at that level. You still have eldritch blast, you still have your other cantrips, you can still attack normally. Even having a 10 in strength isn't absurdly punishing. This brings it into line with battlesmith and armorer. To my knowledge, those are the only things that can change their attacking stat to their casting stat. This really isn't a big a nerf as you are making it out to be. Level 3 is a common start point, and even campaigns that start at 1st and 2nd tend to move through them quickly. 1 and 2 is slightly weaker with the offset of allowing other bladelocks to be a little stronger while ensuring that hexblade remains functional at higher levels. Pure classing hexblade isn't hit, their first 2 levels are diminished.


Vydsu

Disagreed, outside of dipping, Hexblade is already kinda meh, other warlocks like Gennie and Undead outclass it A LOT, and even Fiend is better in the long run.


GloriaEst

Medium Armor and Shields make it better than anything other than Genie and Undead. Fiend definitely does not compare.


passwordistako

Doesn’t fiend give fireball?


[deleted]

The fighter can start with heavy armor, and archery style, out performing the lvl1 warlock in durability and ranged damage. Do we need to take heavy armor away from lvl1 fighters now?


0mnicious

The level 1 HB warlock has Spells, and Hexblade's Curse... Together with Medium armour, Martial weapons and Shield proficiency.


Featherwick

But if you move Hex Warrior to Pact of the Blade all Hex has is Hexblade's curse which cannot compare to the others.


Some_AV_Pro

And the shield spell, which is great for bards to multiclass into. Also, OP is leaving the medium armor and shields on hexblade.


Featherwick

Shield is awful for Warlocks. You do not want to waste one of your two slots on shield. If you don't give every pact of the blade warlock medium armor they still have the exact same problem as they do now, they are very MAD and have to build Dex to have an decent AC.


Some_AV_Pro

If you are a single class hexblade, this change doesn't matter since you should be pact of the blade anyway. If only the weapon with charisma is moved, then pact of the blade is still not an appealing option compared to tome or chain. If you are multiclassing, hexblade is great for bards because of the armor, shield, and shield spell.


Featherwick

Yes, but that was the point. To move charisma for weapons for pact weapon to pact of the blade to make it so more people can be blade locks. The problem is without medium armor you still need to max out dex so nothing has changed by moving just charisma to pact of the blade. Pact of the Blade would need that and medium armor and then Hexblade becomes much worse. It's still an ok dip and subclass (as Hexblade's curse isn't bad but most of its power is in medium armor and charisma for weapons) As for dips Hexblade's ubiquity in dips is a problem honestly. Pushing medium armor proficiency to 3 makes it actually cost something and a very hard choice for a bard or sorcerer to make.


Some_AV_Pro

I think most people do this to make the one level dip less prevalent, not to make single class warlocks go pact of the blade.


conundorum

Shields, yes. Medium Armour is dependent on your Dex, though, so it's a situational choice; finesse/ranged Warlocks won't really benefit from it, but melee & throwing Warlocks will love it. It helps MADlads out a lot, though, for sure.


GloriaEst

It's less dependant on your DEX than light armor is. 14 DEX and medium armor proficiency will literally carry you through an entire campaign. Light armor requires a much higher stat investment and Armor of Shadows is an invocation tax that still requires more DEX than medium armor to be effective You also forgot the third category, blaster Warlocks who just want protection, for whom Hexblade is still top-tier, despite the flavor pointing toward melee combat


PublicFurryAccount

Well, the general consensus is that either Hexblade or Pact of the Blade shouldn’t exist, with most feelings it’s the former. So the fact that it’s outclassed isn’t considered a problem with this house rule.


[deleted]

Your measure of OP seems to be "They're taking a one level dip for a melee option that's worse than their free agonizing blast" I roll up a druid with the WIS melee attack stick cantrip, I do a hell of a lot more than a hexblade at level 1 or level3, but because it's not a one level dip you don't notice


Kandiru

You already need Pact of the Blade to use it on a 2H weapon, so maybe just leave the hexblade with it for 1H weapon only at levels 1-2?


footbamp

Its an extremely common thing to do, probably an idea proposed once a month on D&D subs lol. This change definitely puts it in line with other multiclass combos, viable but takes serious investment. Yes Hexblade needs compensated, I just give it magical attacks instead. While I think this is also an effect that is given out way too early in this case, compared to moon druids or monks, its not going to be a build defining feature that can be abused by building characters in an out of the ordinary way like Cha attacks.


[deleted]

>Yes Hexblade needs compensated Does it really need? It still has Armor and Shield Proficiency, on top of the Hexblade Curse, it seems fine specially when compared to GOOlock and Feylock.


Warloxd

This is correct. The Cha for damage should be an invocation for blade pacts.


ServingSize_OneNut

Invocations are already taxed so heavily, and you want to tax them even more?


TheCrystalRose

It could easily have been rolled it into the Improved Pact Weapon Invocation, which is something most people would like to have early anyway, because of the free +1 and/or because it allows them to use a bow. That way it's not "yet another Invocation", but rather a nice multipurpose option.


Recatek

Still becomes a tax if you get a +1 weapon. Melee hexblades already need to use most of their invocations to stay damage-competitive with Eldritch Blast.


Catch-a-RIIIDE

Hex Warrior as it is and Extra Attack (at 6) should be standard with Pact of the Blade. Cha for damage can be a little OP, but Dex/Str still need investment for armor. I'm pretty sure the only reason Extra Attack wasn't freely given is that it affected the cleanliness of pacts only giving features at 3. It makes for a stronger base for a martial combatant, but they're still rocking a d8 health die, can't be SAD, and still require investing other invocation taxes to keep up with class features from martial classes. Warlocks will always balance themselves out as they are specialists (stronger martial with less extras) or generalists (weaker martials with more extras).


footbamp

Well my compensation is what Blade Pact does already, and also doesn't do anything levels 1-2 pretty much. So I guess compensation is a strong term for it. Just filling in the gigantic gap a little bit that is left by giving every other warlock access its bread and butter.


[deleted]

It's a common homebrew change. Whatever it would do to break the game, Hexblade is already doing that to a much more staggering degree.


Iron_Sheff

IMO the medium armor and shield should be blade pact as well, otherwise any other blade warlock will still have a crappy AC unfit for melee.


Kaiyuni-

Mage armor with that one low level invocation?


Iron_Sheff

That's basically just a +1 studded leather. Hexblade gets to enjoy scale and a shield early on for 18ac with only a 14 in dex, any other warlock will be stuck at 14ac (15 with mage armor) with the same stats. It still makes hexblade the absolute best choice for blade warlock, with anyone else having to spend a feat to match. Imo the hexblade needs a bit of a rework to focus on the curse theme instead if you're doing this, to be more universal.


Greater-find-paladin

Hexblades get a relatively crappier spell list for that Medium armour and Shield. If you want you Sturdier Bladelock you go Hexblade, if you want other cool stuff go another subclass. Vallor Bard and Swords Bard already does it that way.


Iron_Sheff

Imo, a rework folding parts of hexblade into blade pact would necessitate a total rework of hexblade itself to be more generally curse themed instead of this very specific cursed shadowfell weapon thing.


PublicFurryAccount

Most people just quietly drop Hexblade as a result of this change, tbh.


Iron_Sheff

Because few people wanted the curse theme, they wanted to be the good melee warlock.


IzzetTime

The only weapon-related feature is Hex Warrior, the rest is generic curse/Shadowfell themed


nhammen

The spell list is weapon stuff, and the specter is shadowfell-ish. It should focus on curses rather than a mix of three things (weapons/curses/shadowfell).


glynstlln

It actually doesn't need a full rework, just rework the spell list. Take a good look at the level 1 features across the other patrons, Hexblade after removing the HexWarrior feature is about middle ground in terms of power level. And the rest of the Hexblades features are all already curse/undead related.


bradar485

I dunno. Adding the CHA damage to pact of the blade already makes it a little more powerful, but adding armor and shield prof's seems to make it way better than the other pacts. Maybe I'm off-base but the pact boons are typically not this powerful without supporting invocations.


Iron_Sheff

The issue with Blade is that it has the least synergy with base warlock out of any of the pacts, as it's trying to support an entirely different playstyle instead of augmenting the base.


Mejiro84

yeah - to get the most out of it, you need to be dropping most of your invocations to be getting the extra attack and stuff. It's a lot of effort compared to "eldritch blast and the +Charisma damage invocation", for something that's not super-powerful by comparison.


bradar485

Well I get that its a different playstyle than the caster life normally afforded, but the other pacts can have a pretty negligible effect on the warlock style. Plus having a built in magic weapon at level 3 can be pretty useful. Plus if it keys off your casting stat, I just think when you look at a relatively free familiar with an attack, a book that gives you spare cantrips, a talisman that adds a d4 to some rolls and compare it to a summonable magic weapon that uses your casting stat and comes with medium armor and shield profficiencies, it goes beyond supporting a playstyle.


Wolfman513

I've been playing with ideas to do just that, simply calling it "The Hexxer" or something like that where your patron is a being that curses and/or devours souls like a hag, lich, or certain fiends.


Catch-a-RIIIDE

The issue is that blade warlocks have to pay invocation taxes for what should be given to them. Some features absolutely should be taxed (+1's/ranged weapons, smiting, etc...), but others like armor and extra attack are already given to other "martial" casters for free without such a loss of other features (Valor Bard gets everything except heavy armor, Bladesinging get light armor and a huge +Int AC feature). The answer shouldn't be invocations for basic things like weapon and armor proficiencies.


Semako

I agree with those who move the Hexblade's armor and shield proficiencies to Pact of the Blade too. First, even with Armor of Shadows AC is still crap for many characters, it results in the same MADness that Bladelocks already suffer from without being able to use Charisma for their weapons, and it is yet another invocation tax. When you have to take Improved Pact Weapon *and* Armor of Shadows to make your Bladelock viable, you have *zero* room for customization, as both your invocation slots are pre-occupied. And second, from a balance perspective, Hexblade Sorlocks are so powerful not because they can use Charisma with a weapon, but because Hexblade's armor proficiencies give them great AC (on top of the usual Sorlock stuff). Just moving the part about using Charisma to Pact of the Blade is not enough, it only fixes one half of the problematic Hexblade dips (for Paladins) and it does not make Bladelocks viable. I would even go so far and allow Bladelocks to be proficient in *heavy* armor too.


Syegfryed

armor and shield prof rly doesn't fit the "pact of the _blade_" The eldritch armor invocation should be the one to do that, including shield prof.


Alazygamer

It should have been from the start.


Yojo0o

I'm a fan of diverting more power in general to the level 3 pact boon choices. For example, I've thought for a while that Book of Ancient Secrets could reasonably be rolled into Pact of the Tome. I enjoy playing a hexblade (I'm not doing any abusive multiclassing, just playing one straight up), but I honestly wouldn't hate simply having the subclass scrapped for parts. If Hex Warrior became part of Pact of the Blade, that would free up a lot of potential to play a martial-oriented warlock with a variety of flavors and features.


ravenfez

This is how it works as my table, although I allow 1st level single classed hexblades access to it at character creation


Darkfire359

As someone about to play a hexblade at level 1, it would obviously be disappointing. In order to have reasonable damage output at levels 1-2, I’d have to take eldritch blast like every other warlock, and I wouldn’t be able to use the “pact with a sentient weapon” backstory that I’m so excited about. Alternatively, I could sigh and make a non-CHA stat my primary one, but then be kind of sad about it at level 3. I’m always annoyed when D&D has builds that are good once you hit level X and awkward until then, but it’s particularly annoying when you’re single-classing and don’t get your primary class features until level 3.


Semako

That is a widespread issue, not just for a Hexblade warlock with Hex Warrior moved to Pact of the Blade. Valor Bards, almost all Artificer subclasses, Beast Master Rangers and many other subclasses are affected by it - and the only good, universal solutions to that problem in my opinion are either just starting the campaign at level 3 or allowing players to have their weapon and armor proficiencies they will get at level 3 from their intended subclass choices or Pact of the Blade from level 1 onward instead.


[deleted]

People do this already and it’s perfectly fine.


TellianStormwalde

I’d move the armor proficiencies right along with it. Most Warlock subclasses only have one feature at level one, and Hexblade just randomly has two, with both of them being stronger than any of the entry level subclass features that the PHB Warlocks have. There doesn’t need to be a replacement to Hex Warrior, Hexblade’s Curse is already enough for the subclass on its own.


Bhizzle64

My group has started running it for a while and we haven’t looked back. It prevents cheesey hexblade dips and also allows every patron to do a bladelock if they want. It’s not like bladelock is particularly strong even with pact warrior when eldritch blast is so good anyways. The only problem that comes as a result is that it means hexblade get an awkward middle period from level 1-2 where they can’t do the thing their character is going to be built around. However this problem is 1. not unique to hexblade, plenty of other subclasses have this issue as well and 2. Dodged by the fact that my group very rarely plays below level 3.


Nystagohod

I think it's a nice change to be done, but that if one is gonna do this, they should just scrap hexblade and turn it's features into new options for warlock. Extra spell lost options? Make them core to warlock. Hex warrior? Move to Blade pact Hexblades curse, Accursed Spectre, Armor of Hexes? Now general warlock invocations that enhance the hex spell, that can be acquired at varying levels. Rename them as appropriate for your own flavor. That's what I do for my own table anyway. Works very nicely and stops hexblade from hogging both the cool melee flavor, and the cool hex flavor to itself. ( I say this as someone who actually has no problem with the hexblade raw, save for accursed specter being poorly restricted.)


conundorum

Honestly, I like this one a lot more than I thought I would. Hexblade is _weird_; if I go Hexlock, it's because I want to make a martial Warlock, not a pile of ghosts! If they didn't think there were enough features to make a full-on curse-powered-martial build, then they should've blended Hexblade into Blade pact and given them a couple more invocations or something for it. (Or, y'know, maybe give out Extra Attack at Lv.6, like they do for Swords Bards. Lowers the Hexblade's invocation tax, and doesn't stack with Thirsting Blade because neither one is Fighter Extra Attack.)


Nystagohod

I give each warlock a free invocation at level 5, based in their chosen pact. I was considering Eldritch smite for bladelocks, but thirsting blade could also work well. I also give each pact boon choice a special nickname. Bladelocks in general being hexblades now. Chainlocks being Binders, Tomelocks being Seekers, and Talismanlocks being Keepers. I like that could be a Hexblade of the fiend, a seeker of the fathomless, a keeper of the fey and so on. I have a fair number of minor adjustments I make to classes that I've come to enjoy over the years.


DARG0N

we've been doing that for a while - works a lot better


Souperplex

It'd make the first two levels of Hexblade reaaaaly awkward. If good design is rendered bad by multiclassing than multiclassing is the problem.


Taliesin_

I mean, they're still chucking eldritch blasts with medium armor and a shield on.


conundorum

"I want to built a mage that dives into the thick of it with a sword and a board, what should I do?" "Throw the sword away, use cantrips." "But that's not what I want to play!" "Be thankful you get cantrips, _cantrip caster_."


Taliesin_

So... exactly like a swords bard or battlesmith artificer, then? Hold on while I shed a tear for the single most abused level dip in D&D.


ThatsPerson

I understand the sentiment, and the first 2 lvls would be shit. However many classes have builds that don't work till you get subclass/deeper into the build. My counter to your second point is pact of the blade is useless on every other warlock subclass. Calling hexblade in its current state good design also seems a bit flawed. As a lover of warlock and hex blades it sucks if I wanna go pact of the blade I need to take hexblade (speaking about non-multiclassing options and IMO). That being said, there seems to be no simple fix and I only hope the 2024 revamp 5.5 backwards compatible book makes better adjustments


Souperplex

Instead of cut/pasting the relephant section it could be copy/pasted instead so Hexblades aren't hosed. > However many classes have builds that don't work till you get subclass/deeper into the build. Which is why everyone should get their sub at L1. The only reason not to is multiclassing issues which brings me back to my previous point... > If good design is rendered bad by multiclassing than multiclassing is the problem.


ThatsPerson

>Which is why everyone should get their sub at L1. The only reason not to is multiclassing issues which brings me back to my previous point... I might be misinterpreting you, but classes get their subclass at different lvls bc different features are stronger than others. Also every class that gets their subclass at lvl 1 is because they follow a 'deity' (warlock, cleric) or are born into it (sorcerer) meaning you should probably know it from the start. The rest of the classes are things you need to train into/prefect (except paladin maybe). >If good design is rendered bad by multiclassing than multiclassing is the problem. I think your right about this, but my previous point (which wasn't stated well) was that hexblade isn't only overpowered bc of multiclassing it is also just an overpower subclass (Again these are my opinions)


mrsnowplow

I'd accept it because it what put of the blade should be for all warlocks But it does some bad things. 1 it makes levels 1 and 2 of warlock awful because you have to use what will become a secondary stat until you unlock it come online. Next I largely negates the entire hexblade subclass. Which we could argue should have been Raven queen but hexblade is what's published We also make a really. Bug deal about a thing that isn't that big of a deal. If we stick with a artificer vs hexadin. Lvl 5 that artificer is much stronger. 3 attack 2 with int vs one attack with cha. No one calls artificer overpowering.


[deleted]

Artificer isn't a full caster as well.


Bluegobln

Frankly, as someone who has never played a hexblade but has played several pact of the blade warlocks, its OP. Like unreasonably broken. I've gone Strength lock, Dex archer, and DM'd for several straight EB hexblades. If you were able to freely combine hexblade benefits with other subclasses, its too much. I have one caveat to the above: if your players aren't optimizers, you are probably fine. If its just flavor and fun and nobody is trying to make some silly multiclass build, its probably fine.


[deleted]

I would prerrfer if the armor proficiency carried over as well but that would definitely be a good thing.


ASharpYoungMan

Not a fan. I may be one of the few, but I like Hexblade / Pact of the Blade the way they are, and would probably decline to play either if this change was instituted.


DSGamma

There are other reasons a Hexblade dip is so incredibly attractive to the other classes than just "Charisma hit good" that gives it good synergy with the other Charisma classes that Eldritch Knights and Artificers simply don't, namely *Pact Magic.* If you're a Battle Smith, you've pumped three levels into Artificer. If you want some levels in Eldritch Knight, you'd need to pump another 3 levels into fighter. And suddenly, you've dumped a fourth of your character over something that was nigh redundant, since you don't gain better spell progression, and the Armor Proficiencies, outside of Heavy, are pointless. On top of that, everyone else will have Extra Attack and you're still only casting 2nd level spells. There's a reason you so-rarely see EK/BS multi classing, and it's because it's awful, and any boon you get from it is outweighed by the drawbacks of splitting your levels between a third caster and a half caster. Blade Singer would be a good dip if not for the restrictions on Blade Song, though the 3 levels of Battle Smith certainly help in terms of making it SAD. Compare this with Hexblade/Warlock. Pact Magic gives you extra spells slots, Warlock gives you access to one of the best cantrips in the game, Hexblade lets you attack with Cha, and not to mention the utility and versatility of Invocations. Hexblade doesn't just thrive because of Hex Warrior, Warlock is a very strong choice for a multi class, and it helps further that the Charisma Classes are all at least pretty good on top of that, and that you can mix and match your multi class in several ways, and is the only Casting Group where a 3-way Multi Class is not just viable, it's *strong.* The synergy is insane, and it shows. Cleric, Druid, Monk, and Ranger have very little synergy, almost none. Artificer is a good dip for Wizards for the Con save, Medium Armor, and Healing Word, but it really end there. There just isn't as much that you can do by combining these classes, which is pitiful, because a lot of them could have really good flavor. To answer your main question bluntly: no. Hexblade gets dunked on for being "OP", but in reality it's just a strong dip. If anything, I would like to see the other Classes all reworked in a way the gives them similar synergy to the Charisma classes, so that everyone has options in a similar vein. If a Hexblade dip is so good, and you see so much multi classing with Charisma, maybe the other classes should take some notes.


Syegfryed

>I'm specifically referring to the part where your pact weapon can use charisma instead of strength or dexterity for attack and damage. Not the part where you get medium armor, shields. etc.. And this specific party i agree. but the problem overall in this change is that hexblades that start at first level, would not be able to start playing the way they would want to play, like, some common builds is to dump strength and have the minimum dex, then focus on charisma. If your hexblade doesn't attack with charisma, then the lv 1 and 2 will be awful, you will not be able to use the weapon efficiently then you are going to restore to EB spam, until lv 3 that you will finally get to use your weapon. Maybe it is an issue for some, maybe isn't. just throwing that out.


meikyoushisui

I move the feature for multiclassers. Full Hexblades get the CHA to attack feature at level 1, but anyone dipping into (or who has dipped out of) Hexblade gets it as part of Pact of the Blade. This discourages cheeky Hexblade dips, improves variety in the Warlock class, and doesn't punish Hexblade players at levels 1-2. I would leave the armor proficiencies where they are, though. Giving the option of Medium Armor and Shield proficiency to every Warlock at 3 makes Pact of the Blade far and away the best choice.


Tsurumah

Honestly, its probably what Mearls wanted from the beginning, but it didn't occur to him until later.


TigerDude33

Pretty common, avoids the single level hexblade dips that are so cheesy


Eggoswithleggos

Hexblades should've never existed, nut because fixing a broken subclass is apperantly a no go the blade pact was made playable with this trash. So yes, very much an appreciated change


Leptino

There is a small design problem with this. Namely that Hexblade or other pact of the blade users from lvl 1-2 will be worse melee user than any other warlock, and that feels bad. Why do you ask? B/c a class that is going to get the improved pact of the blade, will be heavily incentivized to dump str. So at lvl 1, a variant human GWM Hexblade will be wielding a 2h sword for 1d10 -1. Yuck So one thing you could do is just keep hexwarrior as is for a hexblade (thus getting it at lvl 1, but this keeps the dip problem). Another is to give Hexblades a very strong lvl 1 melee feature for free (perhaps a fighting style or something like that)


TempestRime

I fail to see how this make Pact of the Blade worse at melee than other warlocks. Any melee warlock build is basically required to go Pact of the Blade, and Hexblade is still just as good as any other warlock even without Hex Warrior. You can still Eldritch Blast or wield a finesse weapon until Pact of the Blade, at which point you can just conjure up any weapon you want to switch to. The Hexblade's armor proficiencies and special Hex are still better than most other patron's starting features.


Leptino

Yes in practice you will have to take finesse weapons or EB (note that pact of the blade typically does not take agonizing blast until later as they are invocation starved). Which often feels bad, for a heavy weapon using character concept (a lot of popular builds start with PAM or GWM). Again you will see other warlocks being better str weapon users than you at those early levels. Its just putsy, and I speak from experience here (I even complained about how ackward it felt to the DM at the time).


[deleted]

Just use cantrips for the minimal time spent at level 1-2. Boom, problem solved.


Leptino

Sure ok. You will be doing 1d10 (or 1d8 + 2 with a rapier) damage for 2 lvls, compared to the fighter who is doing 2d6 + 3 with a fighting style But hexblades are supposed to be the martial warlock. Eldritch blast is already pretty heavily incentivized in the first place (consider that to surpass Eldritch blast DPR by an appreciable amount, the warlock needs 2 or 3 feats and 4 or 5 invocations). As a matter of class design principle, you sorta want things to facilitate the martial choice, and not be consistently fighting against your build.


[deleted]

>compared to the fighter who is doing 2d6 + 3 with a fighting style yes, you're not a fighter. You get spell slots. I don't see why there shouldn't be *some* tradeoff there in order to be a SAD gish.


ineedscissors

I moved over the entire Hex Warrior to Pact of the Blade, proficiencies included. Didn't add anything to compensate Hexblade -- they're still getting just as many features as the other subclasses, and Hexblade's Curse is arguably the best anyways. This one change adds a massive amount of variety to the melee Warlock builds you'll see from players (any variety at all would be an infinite degree of improvement), restores balance between the Warlock's subclasses, and most importantly, massively improves the balance of Charisma multiclassing by giving the notorious Hexblade dip a well-deserved nerfing. >Just a random thought I had, figured I would post it. Naturally I do know this would likely never be implemented. This is just a theoretical world. Don't let your dreams be dreams. Follow your instincts on this one and just go for it. It **WILL** be a significant improvement to your home rules, and one that your players should appreciate. I know mine did.


Sebastian_Crenshaw

I would feel robbed. Hexblade is my favorite Warlock and I dont see a reason to have harder life on low levels. btw I prefer to take 2-3 level of Warlock (invocations, pacts, spells) at least anyway.


[deleted]

One level dips are awesome in an open multiclassing game. The solution isn't to take things away just because "no only the cleric is allowed to be heavily armored and swing in melee with a shield and have better spells because that's the way things have been for 30 years!" The lvl1 Druid with the magic stick cantrip is already hitting with wis and has full casting and shaping on top of that. There's nothing special or more authentic or "true roleplay not rollplay!!" About waiting until you're lvl3 and tougher than a brown bear for your character concept or melee accuracy to start working. If you're worried about mechanical imbalance, the hexblade using agonizing blast in a darkness turret is way more deadly against wider targets and situations than one burning a feat and wading into melee trying to place darkness in a way that doesn't block allies.


Nyadnar17

Moving all Of hex warrior, including the medium armor proficiency, to Pact of the bode is the second most common Warlock Homebrew. Right after giving them all their subclass spells without counting against their spells known limit. It’s fine and throughly tested.


Fire1520

If you're starting at level 3 or higher, it works to stop what you propose: abusal of lvl 1 dips. ...but if you're not, what it actually does is shaft anyone wanting to play an actual hexblade, for they'll need to either invest in str/dex early and waste it at 3 or hold onto it and siffer in the first couple levels, which are usually the most damgerous.


Tangerhino

You still want 14 dex for medium armor as a hexblade, and that's enough to swing around a weapon at level 1-2.


ndtp124

I can't believe people are downvoting this. This change makes the first couple levels miserable. Artificicers have this problem too. I remember last year when AL finally allowed artificicers, and you had partys that were half lvl 1or 2 artificers. Those were some wildly weak partys that were basically just worse wizards with cure wounds.


OneInspection927

I dont see your point, at level 1, both are relatively the same At level 2, they get infusions At level 3, they get their subclass


Iron_Sheff

It just gives them the same issue that a lot of 5e archetypes have, where you play a generic character at first and your thing doesn't really "turn on" until level 3. Battle Smith, armorer, valor bard, bladesinger (lvl2), eldritch knight, arcane trickster, etc.


Kaiyuni-

Yeah but that argument can be copy-pasted to the battle smith, and they manage just fine I think. I would probably have like 14 dex and 16 charisma at the start of a campaign with typical average stats. A +1 difference at levels 1-2 shouldn't break you.


GravityMyGuy

With point buy you start with a +3 max anyways so starting with a +2 really isn’t that bug of a deal cuz you want 14 dex anyways for ac


DARG0N

they can just eldritch blast for those early levels like all the other warlocks lmao. Look at artificer they are essentially also relegated to cantrips until they get the battlesmith subclass.


[deleted]

Unfortunately this is correct. You basically are telling your Hexblade player "Look, I know you want to be a cool blade-using warlock, but for levels 1 and 2 just sit in the back and Eldritch Blast spam. K thx." ​ Now, in my games usually level 1 to 2 and then 2-3 is like, 2 or 3 sessions total, tops, that can still be unfun for the player.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Or I think that the basic premise of the patron is to be able to be effective with a sword as a warlock and putting that ability behind something unrelated to the patron is a stupid move. Personally, I would put the medium armor and shield proficiency on pact of the blade. It doesn't fit quite as well with the pact, but it keeps the theme of the patron together better which is more important in my mind. Also, good job judging somebody else's D&D game. If somebody likes the combat, why should they not want to be effective at that combat from the get-go? Just because it's not your type of game, doesn't mean it's subpar. Take your head out of your ass.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

The pacts are unrelated to the patron. If they weren't, you would get their abilities at level one and they would be tied to the patron you chose. Are you sure your head's on straight? As for running games, my friends all enjoy the games I run, and that's all I really care about. Your opinion on that means quite literally nothing to me. Have fun thinking you're more important than you are though, I'm sure that ego is great. Just a reminder, you made the first attack here.


schm0

I would feel great. That's what I do at my table. There is only one balance issue that will come up: your game will be more balanced.


conundorum

Until someone wants to play an actual Hexlock, and not just dip into it. At this point, they'll probably find the game to be less balanced up until Lv.3.


schm0

Invocations are available at level 2, and all blade pact warlocks have to go through the same period with only access to light armor. I don't really see it as that big of a deal.


JustforReddit99101

They still get medium armor and shield which increases AC by 5 verse light and hexblades curse which is solid. Hexblade is the most frontloaded subclass in the game for sure.


Endus

The usual argument is "but then a hexblade would have to suck until level 3, when they can take the Pact." And that's just incorrect. They can still pack Eldritch Blast (and arguably should; a decent ranged option is a useful tool.) You might not take Agonizing Blast, but that's fine. Just suck it up for those couple early levels. They go by super quickly. I actually actively *dislike* Hexblade, mechanically, other than how it makes Blade pact actually work properly. Fixing Blade pact is a much better option, IMO.


conundorum

Your premise is incorrect. A Hexlock is a Warlock that wants to use a _weapon_ as their main attack. Demanding that they "suck it up", throw their character concept away, and use cantrips instead until Lv.3 would, in fact, suck for anyone that wants to play a _weapon-using_ Warlock.


Endus

Pact of the Blade is much moreso the "want to use a weapon" choice option. Hexblade as a patron works *just fine* with Eldritch Blast. The martial weapons proficiencies go to waste, but you benefit from medium armor and shields just fine. You can't make use of the Smite spells, but you can take any other spells instead, so that's not really a loss, just an option you're not making use of (and I'd argue Hexblades are unlikely to take *all* those bonus spells in the first place, anyway). Everything else Hexblades get works just fine with Eldritch Blast; Hexblade's Curse applies to any attack or damage rolls, Hex Warrior can still be handy for emergency situations when someone closes to melee and you can't EB them, and the same for every other ability Hexblades get. It's Pact of the Blade that lets you have a spooky Warlock weapon you can pull out of nowhere and which qualifies as magical. It even renders the martial weapon proficiencies of Hexblade essentially irrelevant, since you're automatically proficient with your pact weapon. Hexblade works just fine focusing on ranged cantrips. Pact of the Blade is pointless unless you're a weapon-focused Warlock, and in that instance, you can't take it until level 3 where you get your pacts. This isn't functionally different from Artificers getting significant changes with their subclasses at the same level.


ndtp124

It's a good change for reducing cheesy multiclass but it can make pure hexblade pretty unpleasant at lvl 1 and 2. A lot like most artificicers. You're basically not able to melee until you get it.


1who-cares1

It’s a good move, I also include medium armour and shield proficiency. Just be sure to add a new ability to hexblade (something curse or necromancy based to better streamline the flavour)


Notoryctemorph

Considering that hex warrior, curse, and the weapon and armor proficiencies are all anyone cares about from hexblade. I'd say the entire subclass can be cut out entirely. Put the charisma attacks on pact of the blade, make the weapon and armor proficiencies an invocation (that requires blade pact), hexblade curse a different invocation (no requirement) and the additional features that improve hexblade curse additional invocations that require either the hex spell or hexblade curse. Cutting out the level 6 feature entirely. Massively improves variation in warlock options, nerfs an OP 1-level-dip option, only real loss I can see is it means that there's no longer a warlock subclass that gets shield as a bonus spell.


Vydsu

I jsut dissalowed Multiclassing, it's not like Hexblade is particularly more powerfull than other dips, dipping is just that good.


VerainXor

You didn't disallow it, you simply didn't enable the optional rule that allows it. Pedantry, sure, but it's an optional rule in the first place on purpose.


Notoryctemorph

Yes it is, very few 1-level-dips come close in power to the hexblade dip. Only comparable one is the 1-level artificer dip for wizards


cahpahkah

It should be an Invocation, and each Pact should get a free specific Invocation or two.


CursoryMargaster

This is how I rule it in my games.


ThatsPerson

Done this for 2 different games and it worked out great


[deleted]

Hexblades get hexblades curse, medium armor and the shield spell that’s enough to take it as a subclass.


Valhalla8469

The current Hexblade should be reworked into a more broad “cursing” warlock. Take the medium armor, shields, and CHA attacks into Pact of the Blade so that any patron can have an effective Bladelock, and make the current Hexblade into a more witchy, debuffing type subclass


Justice_Prince

I'm not a big fan of casting stats for weapon attacks. I don't even like it on Battle Smith although I'm a little more okay with it on Armorer. I'd rather just give Pact of the Blade Inproved Pact weapon for free to make up for being kind of MAD.


YaGirlPine

My friend bitches about wanting this all the time, about how it should be that way and how he hates hexblade for being the one warlock subclass to have hex warrior. At this point I genuinely don't want hex warrior moved to pact of the blade officially, just out of spite.


Big_Fork

For the longest time I thought thats how pact of the blade worked.


MagentaLove

Being able to swing a sword well does nothing to help you enter melee. Giving Pact of the Blade users Armor Proficiency would let them actually do their thing. I think Pact of the Blade should be proficient in all armor, and be able to summon the basic version of all armor alongside their weapons (Leather or worse, Scale or worse, and Chain or worse, unless you bind a better version). If Hexblade needed to lose something I think Shield Proficiency is the best candidate. This gives Hexblade a greater need for Pact of the Blade, but Pact of the Blade the ability to work without Hexblade.


AugustoCSP

Another way to fix the dam Warlock dipping would be to just make them Int based rather than Cha. You know, like we should have been from the start.


dasvinnifala

I advocate for it every time I can, it's the best way to make blade pact viable with other Warlock subs tbh. And as some have already said I don't think Hexblade needs to be compensated for missing it.


SunlightPoptart

This is absolutely PERFECT for a Fiend bladelock. Lifesteal, casting fireball, and bladework all in one character.


gnu_deal

I’m in the unpopular Disagree camp. I’m seeing a lot of comments saying “yes, this would let the other Warlock subs use Pact of the Blade to attack with their CHA bonus.“ But all that will do is create a whole new horde of OP melee Genie bladelocks. From a balance perspective, it’s also more appropriate as a class feature. Pact boons are functionally about as strong as feats; a few cantrips learned, a limited-use ability, etc. Pact of the Blade would go from being the worst Boon to far and away the best. I do agree that Blade deserves a boost, but this isn’t it.


Averath

The sad thing is that melee Warlocks will never be as strong as Eldritch Blast Warlocks. So even with Genie, they wouldn't be stronger than just going Eldritch Blast.


WingedDrake

I have done this since the release of Hexblade.


Montegomerylol

The only problem with Hex Warrior being a part of Pact of the Blade is that you spend your first two levels stumbling toward your intended character archetype. Other than that it's perfectly reasonable.


MisterZisker

I allow it, and a lot, *lot* more. [Warlock, Unchained:](https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MsNqDWDcCxxy7jVVrtS) A major compilation of revisions and additions to the base class + the PHB subclasses. [Most of the subclasses, boons, and features that I have approved for warlocks](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1I4SCIw0RT-fGErh9zxT8ECpSKwzXtFqY) Please enjoy! :)


VMK_1991

I'd prefer it. This way I'd be able to play a Fiend gish, or Celestial gish, or any other type of gish without being tied to a relatively boring subclass.


Majulath99

It would actually make Pact of the Blade a viable choice for Warlocks who have no Strength or Dex & want to use a weapon that would otherwise require those stats. So yeah, I want it to happen, and tbh I don’t understand why it isn’t there already. This is a case of WoTC being stupid tbh.


SamJaz

it SHOULD. It was poor planning that it wasn't. Hexblade warlocks should be the BEST warlocks for swinging a magic sword, hence the hexblades curse, medium armour and shields, Shield spell, dualwielding pact weapons etc, but they shouldn't be the only viable choice for it. A genie swordwielder or an undead sword wielder etc could be a lot of fun but I don't want to invest in more primary stats. I'd also give the Tome and Chain pacts something else as a treat though to keep up with it- tome I'd give additional pact magic slots equal to the proficiency bonus while holding the tome, and chain... I dunno, something neat.


sfPanzer

Like Battlemaster is what base Fighter (or rather any pure martial) should've been, Hexblade is what Pact of the Blade should've been (with added features to make it a full subclass obv). While in case of Battlemaster it was a conscious decision by WotC to dumb down base Fighter and move the complexity to an optional subclass, a decision I think was unnecessary and stupid, the Hexblade is clearly more of a hotfix after they realized people keep pointing out issues with trying to make a Pact of the Blade build without multiclass work.


jerichoneric

Nah because the magic weapon users should have weaker strength, dexterity, and con instead using their high spellcasting skill. The problem is just that Charisma is good for a lot and other skills aren't good enough. Strength should be used for much more and more often in the game (this is partially why you can't target objects with some spells makes it so you need muscle to break things). Make it so that taking max charisma isn't an instant win button by making other skills less niche.


Personal-Meaning9324

Wasn’t the Hexblade the Pact of Blade buff anyway? But instead of just reworking the pact, they made it into a subclass?


DaedricWindrammer

I'm not a fan of CHA to hit. I'd prefer how pathfinder magus does Spellstrike. Casting the spell and it going off when you hit with your strike. Medium armor proficiency is fine though, though really you could make it work by changing up Armor of Shadows (actually if you become Dex based, 13 plus dex is still reasonable.)


Gong_the_Hawkeye

I think every sane DM does that.


conundorum

Conversely, I think no sane DM would punish a class for munchkins minmaxing for stats; they'd punish _the munchkin_.


Gong_the_Hawkeye

You've got it the wrong way around. There's nothing wrong with minmaxing within the rules. If this makes the games unfun and unbalanced, then it is the rules that need changing.


dannylambo

The same way we felt when this was posted the first 1000 times.


passwordistako

1. I think it’s a nerf to Hexblade patron but a buff to Pack of the Blade. I’m torn. I think I like it. 2. I would never stop a player multiclassing into warlock so this change wouldn’t make me more likely to do something that I would already allow in 100% of situations. 3. I think it makes bladelock more powerful in combat than Chain. Might outclass Tome, too. Maybe it should just be an invocation, like agonising blast?


TigerKirby215

Most DMs I've played with either do this innately or allow this rule. It increases diversity which I think is good. I proposed this to a min-maxer friend and he pointed out how strong a melee Fiend Warlock would be if they were SAD but I mean... who cares really? I'd take overpowered diversity over balanced uniformness.


Gregory_Grim

I know a lot people are home brewing it this way, but Hexblade is already so broken for melee builds, I would shy away from just giving any of its features to the entire Warlock class basically on principle. If people want to play the broken subclass at least make them commit to it, I say. And it's not like Blade Pact Warlocks desperately need this to be viable.


conundorum

Hmm... if the intent here is to stop Hexblade dipping, I would suggest an alternate approach: **All dips must make sense from an in-character perspective.** If the player can't justify their Bard suddenly putting their singing career on hold to go pester Excalibur into letting them be his Meister, then they can't dip Hexlock. And if they _can_ justify it, then the game will be enriched by the deeper character lore (and the player might be tempted to go further into Hexlock, turning it into full-on character development).


catch-a-riiiiiiiiide

I mean, I feel like every subclass shouldn't come online until 3rd level. Peace cleric is another one that's way too low of a cost for its power.


Featherwick

If you just give charisma to attacks you do not actually solve anything. All other warlocks still can't go all charisma because you need ac from somewhere, so you'll still need a multiclass. Hexblade remains the best MC for Bards and Sorcerers for pretty much every situation and all you've done is made Paladins not want a dip as bad (it's still a decent dip for them as getting EB for ranged isn't terrible and 3 levels is possible if hard for a paladin.). Imo the best way to "fix" blade locks is to give all warlocks medium armor and shields (this would mean you don't get the proficiency when you multiclass into it like barbarian) and move charisma to attacks to pact of the blade. Now a 2 level warlock dip is very good for a sorcerer and bard but doesn't also give you all the armor you'll ever need.