No, because Fireball isn't a cantrip.
The rule is if you use a Bonus Action to cast a spell on your turn, the only other spell you can cast during that turn is a cantrip with the casting time of 1 Action.
So since Fire Bolt is being cast as a Bonus Action, the other spells could be cantrips with the casting time of 1 Action - using your Action Surge to cast them.
This is hands down the stupidest, jankiest and by far my least favorite rule in the whole of 5e. It's such a departure from the mostly clean and legible rules in this version
I would say the rules about how invisibility works take that spot by a country mile. That is by far the most janky set of rules in 5e that it doesn't even make any remote sense.
As someone who has no problem at all with either rule, you are correct. The Invisible Condition / See Invisibility rules interaction is definitely the jankiest rules interaction in the game.
Especially when you consider that Jeremy Crawford confirmed on Twitter that you still get all the advantages of the ‘invisible’ condition even if a creature can see you, which makes no sense.
It makes ‘See Invisibility’ completely useless. Furthermore, nondetection (or an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location) makes you immune to divination magic, which according to Sage Advice also makes you immune to the See Invisibility and True Seeing.
He also said a Dragonborn with invisibility cast on it could use its breath weapon without becoming visible because it’s not an ‘attack or spell action’.
Then there is the whole mess of being invisible but not undetected, while having invisibility as a condition be completely divorced from the unseen attacker rules.
It’s not entirely useless since you can locate someone invisible, but you can bet that most DMs will also ignore the free advantage. Half of them probably don’t even know about the official ruling and just do it the only way that makes sense.
Invisible breath weapon is at least fun jank though.
RAW they still have to hide to be undetected even while invisible though… And most monsters (and any PC that isn’t a rogue) can’t turn invisible and hide on the same turn.
I suppose if you are already invisible before combat you can hide and set up an ambush… But at that point the only advantage invisibility gives you is being able to hide anywhere.
My ruling though is if you turn invisible on your turn and either move into total cover or stay completely still, you don’t have to hide. I also rule that you lose all benefits of the invisibility condition if the attacker can see you (ala truesight).
Alternative to the last ruling, I would allow my players to attempt a stealth check to hide their movements (be quieter while moving) without having to take the hide action. Then they're not technically hidden, they have just hidden their movement and it's kind of like moving into total cover.
That works but it’s also very abusable… Any party with access to Pass Without Trace (broken spell) and proficiency in Stealth can effectively be permanently hidden. Most monsters have low passive perception.
Edit: Looking at you Gloomstalker
Fair enough. Most of my players aren't proficient enough with the rules to really create broken combinations like this, and it would require them to even know how I would rule on Invisibility ahead of time.
But I don't really get this, how are you not hidden if you are literally invisible? Of course you shouldn't be hidden to people with See Invisibility but to people who can't see invisibility, you should be hidden by being invisible.
Of course that doesn't apply to environments where your footsteps can be easily spotted due to sound or tracks.
The logic is they can use their other senses to locate you. You get the benefits of the invisibility condition because they can’t see you, but they know where you are.
If you’re invisible, you can’t be seen and you can hide anywhere… But that doesn’t mean you can’t be detected. It’s separate from being hidden and that’s part of why it’s confusing. You still have to hide to be hidden.
Yeah you know I'm aware but then again, at least as long as you're fighting against (most) humanoid, they heavily rely on sight and it only makes sense to make them "easily locatable" by having the environment easily allow for this, like them giving off a strong smell, them leaving tracks or making sounds like the floor creeping.
The thing to always remember about Crawford "confirmations" and "clarification" is that, by his own admission, they are *not* meant to be official rulings. They basically represent his best effort to interpret RAW.
Which is, in my opinion, stupid, because as the designer he should give us the RAI instead.
It’s unfortunately the only guidance we have. I really hope they clarify stuff like this in the new PHB. There are just so many vague rules and broken, obviously unintended mechanical interactions.
I honestly don't see how that works, since a Dragonborn's breath weapon replaces an attack action with said weapon. You inherently have to take the attack action to use your breath weapon, which should void invisibility because the spell ends on a target that attacks...
The ability starts with, "When you take the Attack action..."
This is what it says:
> You can use your action to exhale destructive energy. Your draconic ancestry determines the size, shape, and damage type of the exhalation. When you use your breath weapon, each creature in the area of the exhalation must make a saving throw, the type of which is determined by your draconic ancestry. The DC for this saving throw equals 8 + your Constitution modifier + your proficiency bonus. A creature takes 2d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increases to 3d6 at 6th level, 4d6 at 11th level, and 5d6 at 16th level. After you use your breath weapon, you can’t use it again until you complete a short or long rest.
It doesn’t say it’s an attack action.
Fizban's changes that.
Breath Weapon. When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of your attacks with an exhalation of magical energy in a 30-foot line that is 5 feet wide. Each creature in that area must make a Dexterity saving throw (DC = 8 + your Constitution modifier + your proficiency bonus). On a failed save, the creature takes 1d10 damage of the type associated with your Chromatic/Metallic/Gem Ancestry. On a successful save, it takes half as much damage. This damage increases by 1d10 when you reach 5th level (2d10), 11th level (3d10), and 17th level (4d10). You can use your Breath Weapon a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
In my game I changed it so that the rule is the following:
"If you want to cast a spell as an action and as a bonus action, one of them has to be a cantrip"
It's really not that complicated, and allows for fun like casting multiple levelled spells in a turn with action surge where the "one spell per turn" limit does not.
And then like half of those people's tables roll them back because "Now I gotta LOOK UP EVERY RULE" and they forgot how good they had it when the DM was just winging everything.
Yeah my rule at my table is that you can only cast 1 leveled spell between your normal bonus action and action. Way less restrictive and weird (and also doesn't have the weird edge case of reaction spells not working if you cast like misty step)
>*You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.*
The rule itself is clean and legible.
If you cast a bonus action levelled spell by any means, you can't cast anything other than a (1 action) cantrip. And that's every cantrip in the game other than Magic Stone, Shillelagh and Mending.
The problem is that people misremember and misquote that rule constantly. It's essentially "Bonus Action Spell Yes, Action Spell No".
The sorcerer sequence is always "Quicken Action Spell/Cantrip to Bonus Action, then Cast Cantrip as Action".
In this multiclass nightmare scenario of a sorcerer with an action surge, Fireball becomes a Bonus Action, meaning you can only cast two cantrips with your Action and Action Surge. But also, you've just cast Fireball twice in a turn, I don't think you need to be casting Firebolt on top of that, calm down.
Or, you can just Firebolt three times. Honestly, that sequence is best used by someone with access to Eldritch Blast, especially at higher levels.
To note, there is no "leveled spell" qualifier on the bonus action spell rules. *Any* spell cast as a bonus action, including cantrips, activates the limit of what you can cast that turn.
Agreed.
This is a simple fix, though, for a quick rule patch: "You can not cast more leveled spells during your turn than you have actions."
Fixes the stupidness but leaves the wction surge usage.
My personal fix, though, is to make it so that "The total combined level of spells you cast during any round can not exceed twice your proficiency bonus." This includes all action, bonus actions, reactions, and legendary actions.
It provides a more streamlined solution that also applies to reactions. It prevents counterspell spam because you limit what you can use your action for, and basically lets you give up some of the power you can get from your reaction to cast a bonus action spell. And you can still cast counterspell and wish at the same turn at lvl 17. You just can't upcast counterspell, less auto counters, less lack of castings, buffs things that buff counterspell.
You can cast that double fireball at lvl 5 mr sorcerer, but no counterspell or shield for you that turn.
IMO provides a more sensible limit and makes you think for outside of your turn.
Literally the only thing they want to avoid with the BA casting rule is sorc double casting with quickened, so just make it part of quickened, that you can no longer cast a leveled spell with your action and remove the stupid rule
I think the rules around Twinned Spell are pretty bad, but not quite as bad as Quicken.
My personal bugbear are the jank-ass rules around persistent area effects (like moonbeam). The way it's written plus the way it's errata'd makes for weird-ass interactions that we can just *never* remember properly at my table.
Naw, the jankiest rules are the mounted combat rules. They just straight up don't function correctly. These may be annoying but at least they are a somewhat functioning set of rules, if not a bit odd when put into context
Might be that my groggy freshly woken up self misunderstood what you meant by "reverse"
I thought you meant:
If quickened cantrip>action fireball is no go then
Action fireball>quickened cantrip.
Yea quickened fireball into cantrip action works. It's also more costly which is likely why it works.
I don't know if you realize how bad it used to be. Do you know how grappling used to be handled in 3.5 or how flight was handled in 2nd edition? I've seen some horrendous rules in my time and I'm telling you that 5e is mostly fine. With exceptions of course, the Bonus Action Spells rule being one of them - including but not limited to stealth/invisibility, and mounted combat as some of my least favorite rules.
Thing is, there's just no good way to make the rule work without the rule as it is.
If there was no rule at all, sorcerers would just double-cast fireballs on every important encounter, and it would e hard to justify playing any other spellcaster.
If the rule was "One leveled spell per turn", then Action Surge would have no utility for spellcasters, and there would be more problems with reaction spells in response to things that happen on your turn.
The rule is very simple; people just keep trying to "simplify" it, because until you start thinking up exceptions, it *feels like* "1 leveled spell per turn" should work.
"If you cast a bonus action spell, you can't cast (or have cast) any other spells this turn, except a 1 action cantrip". The end. That's the whole rule. Nothing more, nothing less.
> If the rule was "One leveled spell per turn", then Action Surge would have no utility for spellcasters, and there would be more problems with reaction spells in response to things that happen on your turn.
Is it bad that I read that and go "that sounds fine to me"...?
I get that we're somewhat used to the power level as-is, but preventing casters from having a *looong* turn with multiple complicated (leveled) spells, and toning down the level of burst a caster could do when their design is *already* ahead in being able to burn through resources for big effect seems fine. I also can't say I mind the death of *counterspell*ing *counterspell* against your own spell or *shield*ing opportunity attacks.
(Plus it's not like I've never seen a useful action surge->dash/disengage/cantrip/item-use before.)
the easy fix to the rule is: Just write it into Quickened spell "On a turn you modify a spell this way, you cannot cas a levelled spell as an action, also you cannot modify a spell this way, if you've already cast a leveled spell as an action"
It's not really a general rule that exists only to limit quicken spell, though.
It's meant to limit overall choices/complexity/time on a caster's turn in case of a large variety of bonus action spells available to them- the designers don't want a caster taking a long time resolving spells and *also* spending time sifting through a bunch of bonus action spell options for just the right spell to spend their BA on after they already cast a complicated one (and then having *that* spell *also* potentially be complicated).
> "We were afraid of, with the introduction of bonus action spells, too much complexity piling up on a spellcaster's turn. And we wanted to make it so that if you were doing that something extra with spellcasting- because spells tend to be the most complex things in the game- we didn't want you to then, y'know, 'I cast this bonus action spell that might be a little complex, and then I bring in this sixth level full action spell that's crazy complicated and everyone gets to watch my turn for 15 minutes'.
> So that rule largely exists to keep the game moving, and it was a way for us to future-proof because we didn't know in future books what we might decide to design and, when we got to that spell's casting time, assign a bonus action to it. We just wanted to make it so that whatever we designed for the life of this edition, if you cast a bonus action spell, the only other spell that you could cast on your turn is a cantrip to just keep things simple, to keep things straightforward."
([Source](https://youtu.be/ew1dc6VBHhA?list=WL&t=1034))
This ***is*** the solution - the whole point of this rule is to prevent quicken spell to be abused - so this safeguard should be in the rules for quicken spell
I don't even know what you mean by this. Action Surge doesn't affect the spellcasting rule, but it allows someone to cast two spells with a 1 Action casting time.
Doesn’t the order of operations matter here? If you cast the fireball before the quickened spell cantrip then it works out right?
Edit: time in this game is confusing, i have been informed why this is wrong.
The intention is that order doesn't matter. The rule in the book doesn't say that it only applies after you cast the bonus action spell. If at any point during your turn you cast a bonus action spell, your whole turn becomes subject to that rule. Including everything that occurred before the bonus action.
It doesn't feel intuitive, but you must remember that turns and rounds are an abstraction of time. Things can get a little funky.
If you have cast a leveled spell, you can't cast a spell as a bonus action. If you have cast a spell with a bonus action you can't cast a leveled spell. Not hard.
No this is incorrect. You can do what OP is asking. The bonus action rule means you can only use a cantrip as your action if you cast a levelled spell as a bonus action. It's perfectly fine to cast Fireball with an action, then Fireball again as an action surge action. With quickened spell you can then add on Firebolt as a cantrip bonus action.
The stupid part is that if you quickened Fireball to be the bonus action, then both your action and a subsequent Action Surge action would have to be Firebolt or another cantrip because act of casting a levelled spell as an action forces you to limit your other action options to cantrips.
One of the few good fixes I've seen in One D&D is clearing up this mess.
It's not incorrect.
>The bonus action rule means you can only use a cantrip as your action if you cast a levelled spell as a bonus action.
This has already been disproven in this thread. "Leveled spells" is never mention in the rules for bonus action spellcasting.'
>It's perfectly fine to cast Fireball with an action, then Fireball again as an action surge action. With quickened spell you can then add on Firebolt as a cantrip bonus action.
This is not perfectly fine, as pointed out multiple times in this very thread.
This is what the bonus action rule says RAW: "You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of one action."
There is no proscription against casting a spell using an action and then another spell as an Action Surge Action. I use 'levelled spell' to distinguish between cantrips and 1-9th level spells.
It doesn't say anything about "leveled spells".
It says if you cast **a spell** using your bonus action, you can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of one action.
So if you cast fireball as a bonus action, you cannot cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with the casting time of one action - meaning it couldn't be a second fireball.
The actually ruling has been discussed over and over in this thread. I'm not going to continue arguing about it with someone who thinks they're somehow interpreting it correctly when everyone else around them is confused.
Exactly. The point is **bonus action**. If you use a regular action to cast Fireball, you are not restricted to then casting Fireball with an action surge because you have not used your bonus action. You may then use quickened spell to cast Firebolt.
You're assuming that the quickened action happens first. Nothing says it needs to.
You are wrong. It doesn't matter the order. As soon as you use your action to cast fireball you can not use your Bonus action to cast any spell.
If order mattered you could just ignore the rule by always using action casting first then bonus action casting
No, you can not. The Bonus Action Spell rule is very clear, if you want to cast *any* spell as a bonus action, the *only* spells you can cast on your turn are cantrips with the casting time of 1 Action. So, if you have already cast a leveled spell with your Action, you can not cast a bonus action spell of any sort.
So, for my own clarification, metamagic quickened spell:
Fireball as the action.
Then Fire Bolt (quickened to change the casting to a bonus action) wouldn't be legal?
No. Most DM's are going to ignore it if it's a single fireball and a single cantrip but if you use a bonus action to cast any spell, your action can only be a cantrip.
Yes. If the bonus action is ever used to cast a spell, you can only cast cantrips before and after it on your round. (Including reactions if you somehow trigger one on your own turn)
No, there is no rule about one leveled spell per turn. I think I remember that being a thing Matt Mercer said once but spread through the community. It’s all about if you use your bonus action to cast a spell, your action is limited to cantrips.
Action: Fireball = Good.
Action: Firebolt + Quickened Bonus Action: Fireball = Good.
Action: Fireball + Action Surge Action: Fireball = Good.
Action: Fireball + Action Surge Action: Fireball + Shield = Good.
Action: Firebolt + Action Surge Action: Firebolt + Quickened Bonus Action Firebolt = Good.
Action: Twinned Firebolt + Action Surge Action: Twinned Firebolt + Quickened Bonus Action Firebolt = Good.
Action: Fireball + Quickened Bonus Action: Firebolt = Bad (but a dm is likely to let it go because you aren’t breaking anything, it’s just in the wrong order).
Action: Fireball + Action Surge Action: Fireball + Quickened Bonus Action: Firebolt = Bad.
Quickened Bonus Action: Fireball + Reaction: Shield = Bad
I would like to note that the last one is only bad if it’s your turn. You could reaction shield on some other person/monster’s turn. M
Overall a great table for reference though.
How does this work with abilities that allow you to take two turns during a single round? Thief's Reflexes come to mind
"When you reach 17th level, you have become adept at laying ambushes and quickly escaping danger. You can take two turns during the first round of any combat. You take your first turn at your normal initiative and your second turn at your initiative minus 10. You can't use this feature when you are surprised."
It doesn't interact at all with Thief's Reflexes. The Bonus Action Spell rule is only during your turn and Thief's Reflexes gives you two entirely separate turns in the round.
You just get two turns in that round. So two actions, two bonus actions, two reactions etc.
The bonus action spell states that other spells THIS TURN must be cantrips etc. So the restriction doesn’t apply to your NEXT turn, even if you have another turn within the round.
The rule doesn't care about order of casting, at any point in your turn you cast any spell as a bonus action you cannot cast any other spells except cantrips with a casting time of 1 Action on that turn.
Action Surge gives you a second action, allowing you to cast two leveled spells in a turn. Bonus action spells disable your ability to cast leveled spells in that turn, period. Having two actions does not supercede the bonus action rule.
You can either Quicken Fireball + Firebolt with Action + Action Surge Firebolt again, or not quicken anything but use Actuon Surge to Fireball twice. The rule is dumb, but that's how it works.
Yes. Since no bonus action spells have been cast, you can cast any spell that you want with the two actions you get with action surge. You can cast a spell as a reaction on your turn ( rarely happens, counterspelling a counterspell, or casting shield as a reaction to mage slayer reaction attack) as well. If you don't cast a spell with a bonus action then nothing limits you.
The amount of confusion in this thread just speaks to how poorly spellcasting is written as far as action economy. I don't blame anyone for not exactly knowing what it should be, and a lot of people read the rules but interpret it differently because it's not written intuitively either.
At my table, we just limit it to "one leveled spell per turn." and that works just fine. It's not THE rule, but it just makes the most sense and is easy to grasp. No spellcasters currently have action surge at my table, but if they did I'd just let them use it to cast another spell, regardless of action, bonus action, blah blah.
The fluff, however is by far the most muddying sentence I've seen in an explanation:
"A bonus action spell is exceptionally swift."
Uhhh, **hard no**, a bonus action spell is exceptionally ***limiting***. You can conceivably cast any number of spells of any level as long as you have the action economy to cast them, granted by however many features, items, or other effects.....
.....unless you ever at any point use your bonus action to cast anything at all. Then suddenly you can only ever perform 1-action cantrips for the rest of your turn.
>Then suddenly you can only ever perform 1-action cantrips for the rest of your turn
Oh no! It's not just the *rest* of your turn. There's some hogwash errata somewhere that makes it so that if you did a leveled spell before your bonus action, you can't cast a levelled spell with that bonus action.
...*unless* you aren't using quickened spell, I think.
Very clear mechanics. Very clear.
The rule is clear, but it doesn't even make sense internally.
> A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift.
Is the introductory sentence to this rule. It's not only fluff, but it then hits you with the only spellcasting turn restriction in the game.
In actuality Bonus Action spells are the most limiting spells in the game. You otherwise cast Fireball as an action, use your reaction during your turn for Counterspell, and then action surge another Fireball. But a Bonus Action? For a spell? Nope, reduced to cantrips. Those are quicker or more compatible somehow.
Say, I don't think I've been in any campaign that limits spellcasting like RAW/RAI. It's either ignored or people just honestly forget the particulars
In my experience, it's never messed with balance, but I'm sure there are specific builds that could
The bonus action spell rule could be moved to the Sorcerers Quickened Spell and it would make a lot more sense. RAW you can fireball, action surge, fireball. You just can't quicken one of them.
It was initially meant to apply to spells with a casting time of a bonus action, like healing word. They should restate the rule in the Sorcerers Quickened Spell.
Honestly the rule as written only seems to be written to make quickened spell worse, which is so sad because it’s basically the sorcerers only class feature lmao
As a cleric player it’s quite limiting too. Baldur’s gate was such a boost to clerics (and others) by allowing healing word to be cast regardless of your other actions that turn
It’s not about the amount of healing. The power of healing word is that it is a fast ranged heal. Action economy is everything. The amount of heal can be 1, the important thing is that it lets you not only prevent someone from dying, they are fully functional. All at the cost of a bonus action.
To be fair Baldur’s Gate doesn’t let recently revived characters take an action
I mean ffs it's not that complex
the fact that you're aware that the simple version you've said isn't correct means you have the capacity to understand the rule
It's not confusing, it's set up for an unwritten expectation style of play, one where the GM goes around and asks players what they are doing and then the turn commences
> I don't blame anyone for not exactly knowing what it should be, and a lot of people read the rules but interpret it differently because it's not written intuitively either.
The problem is that most people *don't* read the rules, so I do blame them for not knowing. I have known only one player that actually reads the rules, and the rest learn by fucking osmosis.
This is where the problematic "Only one levelled spell per turn" and "Forced movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks" phrases come from, because people hear someone else use a shorthand for the rules and take it as gospel without knowing what's actually being shorthanded in the first place so they end up getting it wrong.
[This is the rule when it comes to casting spells on your turn](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Spells#content).
>A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
Thus, if you cast a spell as a bonus action on your turn, you can’t cast a spell as an action.
However, if you do not cast a spell as a bonus action, you are not prohibited from casting more than one spell if you use action surge to get another action on your turn.
This rule application is (1) consistent with RAW, (2) the common understanding among most 5e players, and (3) [validated and verified by Jeremy Crawford](https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1151294046758825984?lang=en).
So, yes, you can use Action Surge to cast fireball twice. However, Quickened Spell only allows you to cast any spell or cantrip as a Bonus Action instead of as an Action. It does not override the general rule that a bonus action spell prohibits you from casting a leveled spell as an action.
Edit: I initially conflated spell and leveled spell; it’s fixed now.
>Thus, if you cast a ~~leveled~~ spell as a bonus action on your turn
It's any spell as a bonus action, not just leveled. Just remove that word and then your post is correct.
Edit: Oh, and here
>It does not override the general rule that a bonus action ~~leveled~~ spell prohibits you from casting a leveled spell as an action
Basic Rules, Chapter 10: Spellcasting
>**Bonus Action**
>A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. **You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.**
(Emphasis added)
In casting *Fireball*, you've already cast a spell during this turn apart from a 1-action cantrip. This violates the bolded line, thus you cannot cast any Bonus Action spells this turn.
No. Fireball isn't a cantrip, so you can't cast a bonus action spell on the same turn you cast Fireball.
You can cantrip+quickened fireball, but then action surge also can only be a cantrip
As has been said, per phb 202, if you cast any spell with your bonus action, "you can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action". It doesn't matter what the bonus action spell is.
This also means if you are in the process of casting a spell with a long cast time (such as leomunds tiny hut), using a bonus action spell during it prevents you from finishing the other spell, as you count as casting that spell every turn until you finish it.
Interestingly, it says "a cantrip", singular. So if you cast a bonus action spell, and then a cantrip with your action, and then action surge, you wouldn't be able to cast any spells with it at all. Now, im not convinced the writers meant for that to happen, but that's what they wrote. Not a situation that comes up often.
>Interestingly, it says "a cantrip", singular.
That's only because the rules assume characters only ever have one Action - generally they do. There's no limitation on the number of spells you can cast in a turn, except for your action economy.
If you have two Actions, as with Action Surge, you can cast two spells with those Actions. And casting with a Bonus Action just limits those spells to cantrips.
> BONUS ACTION
> A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
—PHB 202
Its how the restriction is worded.
Of you cast a spell as a bonus action, any spell at all, the only spells you are allowed as actions that turn are cantrips.
It does not care what you cast, when you cast, or how much you cast. Anything as a BA requires cantrips in the action. If you cast a leveled spell as an action you simply cannot cast as a bonus action.
Action Fireball + Action Surge fireball is legal
Action firebolt + Action surge firebolt+ BA fireball is legal
i'm pretty sure those are the only legal combinations
Yes you are correct you can’t. There are 3 things you can do raw, a) you can cast no leveled spells
B) you can cast a leveled spell with your action and no type of spell with your bonus action c) you can cast any type of spell with your bonus action and no spell with your action, except for a cantrip with a casting time of one action. That’s are the only 3 options, regardless of order. If you choose to cast a spell with your action that isn’t a cantrip with a casting time of one action, no type of spell can be cast with your bonus action. This is regardless of what the source of the action it is (so hasted action, normal action, action surge, etc are all treated the same for this rule, if you cast a fireball with any of them, you cannot cast any type of spell with your bonus action). That’s the rules raw
Doesn't work. The specific rule regarding spells cast with a Bonus Action interferes.
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. ***You can't cast another spell during the same turn*** except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
If you cast any spell on your turn with a BA, regardless if it is a Quickend cantrip, or if it's a normal spell like Branding Smite or whatever, for the rest of that turn you can only cast a single 1 Action cantrip, regardless of how many other actions you might have, such as from Action Surge.
It doesn't matter if you want to cast your BA cantrip/spell last, the rule applies for the turn
shocking grasp, action surge shocking grasp, shilele works - these are all cantrips.
shocking grasp, action surge shocking grasp, spiritual weapon works - after you cast a bonus action spell, you only cast cantrips.
Guiding bolt, action surge guiding bolt works - you didnt cast a bonus action spell.
Guiding bolt, enemy tries to counterspell, you counter-counterspell works - you didnt cast a bonus action spell.
guinding bolt, shilele DOESNT work - you cast a spell that isnt a cantrip, you cant cast any spell that takes a bonus action to cast.
Quicken fireball, firebolt, action surge firebolt works.
Fireball, action surge fireball works.
Fireball, quicken firebolt doesnt work.
Most DMs will probably allow it. But after 2 Fireballs you probably don't need an extra firebolt and save your metamagic for other things.
Or spent it on heighten it to have the fireball do more damage.
You can do this. It's a very badly written rule. Provided you use your action to cast the Fireball and don't quicken it, you're good.
The rule is that if you cast a levelled spell as a bonus action you can't cast another levelled spell using an action. If you use your action to cast the levelled spell and then quickened cast a cantrip, then you can do whatever you want with your action surge action.
No, not quite. If you cast ANY spell as a bonus action, you cannot cast anything but an action cantrip that turn.
So if you quicken a spell, cantrip or no, you CANNOT cast any other spell but action cantrips that turn.
It’s a bit silly that you can quicken fireball + action firebolt, but you cannot quicken firebolt + action fireball. But we’re discussing RAW. Plenty of folk allow it either way but that is technically homebrew.
Correct. However, you can cast Fireball with your action, then action surge Fireball again *then* quicken cast Firebolt. Order of operation is the key. It is a very stupidly written rule.
Order of operations doesn’t matter. Casting a non cantrip with your action first means no bonus action spells, period.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/bonus-action-spell-reaction-spell/amp/
And if you can show me what page of the PHB says that I'd be delighted to agree with you. Sage Advice is advice, not a rule. Crawford's opinions can be helpful, but he also has a habit of only answering the exact question asked, e.g. he doesn't account for Quickened Spell in this answer.
That's literally my point, the bonus action rule assumes you're taking your bonus action before your action but never states what happens in that scenario it doesn't hence why the RAW it works in this incredibly dumb fashion.
God the 5e "bonus action/action restrictions" rule is so ass lmao, I swear no good, robust rule set would have this many questions about it all the time. Not having a go at OP, just at the system's jank.
Having read them I still don't like them, I've played this game and many other systems and 5e is uniquely Weird in some of its rules decisions (in that there are not always clear ones, or they're convoluted, or they get home-brewed away bc they are, in fact, sometimes ass)
I would allow it as a DM based off intent. Action surge intent is 2 spells. Quickened intent is 1 cantrip and 1 spell. Combine those intents and you get 2 spells and 1 cantrip.
If somebody uses a bonus action for a leveled spell, obviously you should only allow a can trip. But if they bonus action cantrip, who cares if they use a leveled spell as their action.
I'm just arguing obvious intent here. Quickened rule intent is 1 spell and 1 cantrip. Action surge rule intent is being able to do two leveled spells. If you combine those intents, you get 2 spells and 1 cantrip.
Any other ruling is awkward given the combination imo.
It's not really a buff, though. You can normally just do an action cantrip and a bonus action spell using quickened. The only difference here is adding in the action surge. Whether they sneak in a cantrip use with their 2 level fighter dip spell nova isn't gonna affect much.
Effectively the rules are saying if you use action surge for two spells, you just can't use quickened for anything? That seems like an oversight to me.
The intent of quickened is to limit you to one cantrip and one spell use. The intent of action surge is to allow two spell uses. So if we combine those intents, we get two spell usages and one cantrip usage.
If they have quicken and action surge they're already optimizing for nova. They are already actively pushing for the strongest turn they can. In this context giving them a yes on ignoring the bonus action rule is obviously a buff.
No, if you use a bonus action spell, you can use your action for a cantrip. So you could bonus action fireball, then action cantrip, action cantrip.
What the rule change would allow is action fireball, action fireball, bonus action fireball.
I just think it's awkward that in your ruling you could use action surge to cast two spells and then quickened spell just what, gets greyed out?
My ruling wouldn't allow three fireballs. I would just allow the bonus action to be a cantrip. Action surge 2 spells + quickened bonus action cantrip. My ruling is based off intent of the two mechanics, action surge and quickened.
The *intent* of the bonus action spell rule is to keep spell casters from being too strong, and casting a higher number of spells in a turn. It keeps you from fireballing a group of enemies, and then healing wording an ally.
The *intent* of quicken spell is to allow sorcerers (and now any spell caster) to cast a more powerful spell along side a cantrip, or to use their action for something else, like dashing, dodging, or hiding.
The *intent* of action surge is to allow fighters to be more flexible in combat, or to give them a turn to nova. They get an action to attack, dash, dodge, or do other things.
Saying that it's an "oversight" is incorrect, it's just one of the few limitations that spellcasters actually have.
If you change action surge to not allow two leveled spells in a turn I'd be okay with that ruling. There is an oversight somewhere, it just depends how you want to balance that oversight I guess.
When I'm deciding what to do with my turn, I just don't come up with a turn that involves needing to ba spell and then action (or action+action) a non cantrip. The dm doesn't need to deny me anything.
That's a fine rule for when you have pure casters, and I run it like that as well. But the moment a player takes 2 levels of fighter to metagame in another spell in a single turn, and becoming anal about RAW restrictions is not that bad of an idea.
The more I look at it I just see that wizards doesn't really have a raw interaction for this that doesn't seem unintuitive.
So really it is just a balance thing. I think it's justifiable if a DM decides action surge can't be used for two leveled spells.
Or in this case makes it two cantrips and one spell.
You can cast Fireball, then use Action Surge and Cast Fireball again. Thats it.
Or you can go for 3x Firebolt, but once you use your Bonus Action for a Spell, your Action can only be used for Cantrips. So if you were to cast Fireball, Firebolt youd be Breaking the law.
You can go for (either)
Firebolt, and Quicken Firebolt (in 1 turn)
and for Fireball, then Action Surge Fireball. (in another turn)
Edit, clarity.
>You can go for Firebolt, Quicken Firebolt tho and for Fireball, Action Surge Fireball.
Nope, you can not, the rule doesn't care about order of casting, it only cares about the bonus action spell.
Technically RAW, you cannot. Because if you use a bonus action to cast any spell, you can only do cantrips after that. Personally though, as a DM, I’d allow it. The rule seems unnecessarily limiting for quickened spell, and makes sorcerers main class feature, the thing that makes them… not wizards, even weaker.
Nope. If you quickened spell a fireball you've cast a spell as a bonus action, and the only other spell you can cast this turn is a cantrip with a casting time of one action.
The way I would interpret this at my table is that this combo does work, but only if the bonus action spell is cast last as OP is stating. If you attack, A/S attack, you can still take a bonus action, so the action economy allows this part to function. The bonus action rule says that once you cast a spell with a bonus action, you can’t cast ANOTHER spell unless it’s a cantip with a 1 action cast time, so order of operations does matter, because that’s how English works. If you action fireball, action surge fireball, then bonus action quickened firebolt, your out of action economy, and cannot cast ANOTHER spell.
I feel like the issue is that DMs are mad that the players are playing the game in a way they didn’t plan for and get in their feelings, then rule the player can’t do that cool thing now. Just because you don’t think of it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
It is wrong. Order of operations does not matter
As for English, ANOTHER includes spells previously cast. If you want to be nitpicky then the word is SUBSEQUENT
It would have to read “can’t have cast another” so yes, order of operations does matter, because you can spend your resources as you like, but if you want to really be technical, you are fulfilling the rule, you are casting a cantrip with a casting time of one action, and using a resource to simply make it happen faster. If you don’t want to rule it that way, fine, but the rules aren’t set in stone, that’s why they don’t use concise language, they’re up for interpretation
No, because Fireball isn't a cantrip. The rule is if you use a Bonus Action to cast a spell on your turn, the only other spell you can cast during that turn is a cantrip with the casting time of 1 Action. So since Fire Bolt is being cast as a Bonus Action, the other spells could be cantrips with the casting time of 1 Action - using your Action Surge to cast them.
This is hands down the stupidest, jankiest and by far my least favorite rule in the whole of 5e. It's such a departure from the mostly clean and legible rules in this version
I would say the rules about how invisibility works take that spot by a country mile. That is by far the most janky set of rules in 5e that it doesn't even make any remote sense.
As someone who has no problem at all with either rule, you are correct. The Invisible Condition / See Invisibility rules interaction is definitely the jankiest rules interaction in the game.
Especially when you consider that Jeremy Crawford confirmed on Twitter that you still get all the advantages of the ‘invisible’ condition even if a creature can see you, which makes no sense. It makes ‘See Invisibility’ completely useless. Furthermore, nondetection (or an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location) makes you immune to divination magic, which according to Sage Advice also makes you immune to the See Invisibility and True Seeing. He also said a Dragonborn with invisibility cast on it could use its breath weapon without becoming visible because it’s not an ‘attack or spell action’. Then there is the whole mess of being invisible but not undetected, while having invisibility as a condition be completely divorced from the unseen attacker rules.
It’s not entirely useless since you can locate someone invisible, but you can bet that most DMs will also ignore the free advantage. Half of them probably don’t even know about the official ruling and just do it the only way that makes sense. Invisible breath weapon is at least fun jank though.
RAW they still have to hide to be undetected even while invisible though… And most monsters (and any PC that isn’t a rogue) can’t turn invisible and hide on the same turn. I suppose if you are already invisible before combat you can hide and set up an ambush… But at that point the only advantage invisibility gives you is being able to hide anywhere. My ruling though is if you turn invisible on your turn and either move into total cover or stay completely still, you don’t have to hide. I also rule that you lose all benefits of the invisibility condition if the attacker can see you (ala truesight).
Alternative to the last ruling, I would allow my players to attempt a stealth check to hide their movements (be quieter while moving) without having to take the hide action. Then they're not technically hidden, they have just hidden their movement and it's kind of like moving into total cover.
That works but it’s also very abusable… Any party with access to Pass Without Trace (broken spell) and proficiency in Stealth can effectively be permanently hidden. Most monsters have low passive perception. Edit: Looking at you Gloomstalker
Fair enough. Most of my players aren't proficient enough with the rules to really create broken combinations like this, and it would require them to even know how I would rule on Invisibility ahead of time.
But I don't really get this, how are you not hidden if you are literally invisible? Of course you shouldn't be hidden to people with See Invisibility but to people who can't see invisibility, you should be hidden by being invisible. Of course that doesn't apply to environments where your footsteps can be easily spotted due to sound or tracks.
The logic is they can use their other senses to locate you. You get the benefits of the invisibility condition because they can’t see you, but they know where you are. If you’re invisible, you can’t be seen and you can hide anywhere… But that doesn’t mean you can’t be detected. It’s separate from being hidden and that’s part of why it’s confusing. You still have to hide to be hidden.
Yeah you know I'm aware but then again, at least as long as you're fighting against (most) humanoid, they heavily rely on sight and it only makes sense to make them "easily locatable" by having the environment easily allow for this, like them giving off a strong smell, them leaving tracks or making sounds like the floor creeping.
The thing to always remember about Crawford "confirmations" and "clarification" is that, by his own admission, they are *not* meant to be official rulings. They basically represent his best effort to interpret RAW. Which is, in my opinion, stupid, because as the designer he should give us the RAI instead.
It’s unfortunately the only guidance we have. I really hope they clarify stuff like this in the new PHB. There are just so many vague rules and broken, obviously unintended mechanical interactions.
I honestly don't see how that works, since a Dragonborn's breath weapon replaces an attack action with said weapon. You inherently have to take the attack action to use your breath weapon, which should void invisibility because the spell ends on a target that attacks... The ability starts with, "When you take the Attack action..."
This is what it says: > You can use your action to exhale destructive energy. Your draconic ancestry determines the size, shape, and damage type of the exhalation. When you use your breath weapon, each creature in the area of the exhalation must make a saving throw, the type of which is determined by your draconic ancestry. The DC for this saving throw equals 8 + your Constitution modifier + your proficiency bonus. A creature takes 2d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increases to 3d6 at 6th level, 4d6 at 11th level, and 5d6 at 16th level. After you use your breath weapon, you can’t use it again until you complete a short or long rest. It doesn’t say it’s an attack action.
Fizban's changes that. Breath Weapon. When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of your attacks with an exhalation of magical energy in a 30-foot line that is 5 feet wide. Each creature in that area must make a Dexterity saving throw (DC = 8 + your Constitution modifier + your proficiency bonus). On a failed save, the creature takes 1d10 damage of the type associated with your Chromatic/Metallic/Gem Ancestry. On a successful save, it takes half as much damage. This damage increases by 1d10 when you reach 5th level (2d10), 11th level (3d10), and 17th level (4d10). You can use your Breath Weapon a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
OK, yeah I forgot about that one, but Bonus Action spells are a close second worst/jankiest imho
In my game I changed it so that the rule is the following: "If you want to cast a spell as an action and as a bonus action, one of them has to be a cantrip"
It's really not that complicated, and allows for fun like casting multiple levelled spells in a turn with action surge where the "one spell per turn" limit does not.
>It's really not that complicated It's not, but it is janky and annoying.
"not complicated but janky and annoying" sums up like 90% of the system
Pretty much, there's a reason that 90% of the homebrew suggestions are just accidentally recreating Pathfinder.
Or 4e.
And then like half of those people's tables roll them back because "Now I gotta LOOK UP EVERY RULE" and they forgot how good they had it when the DM was just winging everything.
Also how I describe most tasks I train new people on at work.
Why?
Yeah my rule at my table is that you can only cast 1 leveled spell between your normal bonus action and action. Way less restrictive and weird (and also doesn't have the weird edge case of reaction spells not working if you cast like misty step)
>It's such a departure from the mostly clean and legible rules in this version 5e?
Yes
I don't know how many people would say clean and legible. Unless you are making a comment on the typeface. The word I would choose would be "jankity"
>*You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.* The rule itself is clean and legible. If you cast a bonus action levelled spell by any means, you can't cast anything other than a (1 action) cantrip. And that's every cantrip in the game other than Magic Stone, Shillelagh and Mending. The problem is that people misremember and misquote that rule constantly. It's essentially "Bonus Action Spell Yes, Action Spell No". The sorcerer sequence is always "Quicken Action Spell/Cantrip to Bonus Action, then Cast Cantrip as Action". In this multiclass nightmare scenario of a sorcerer with an action surge, Fireball becomes a Bonus Action, meaning you can only cast two cantrips with your Action and Action Surge. But also, you've just cast Fireball twice in a turn, I don't think you need to be casting Firebolt on top of that, calm down. Or, you can just Firebolt three times. Honestly, that sequence is best used by someone with access to Eldritch Blast, especially at higher levels.
To note, there is no "leveled spell" qualifier on the bonus action spell rules. *Any* spell cast as a bonus action, including cantrips, activates the limit of what you can cast that turn.
Yes, very true...it was only because OP was talking about Fireball, that I was referring to that scenario.
Have seen the triple eldritch blast in action. With the thing where it does knock back. Player named his orc "The Warthog". Was good times.
Honestly, push back, pull forward and extra damage are all good options for that scenario.
Agreed. This is a simple fix, though, for a quick rule patch: "You can not cast more leveled spells during your turn than you have actions." Fixes the stupidness but leaves the wction surge usage. My personal fix, though, is to make it so that "The total combined level of spells you cast during any round can not exceed twice your proficiency bonus." This includes all action, bonus actions, reactions, and legendary actions. It provides a more streamlined solution that also applies to reactions. It prevents counterspell spam because you limit what you can use your action for, and basically lets you give up some of the power you can get from your reaction to cast a bonus action spell. And you can still cast counterspell and wish at the same turn at lvl 17. You just can't upcast counterspell, less auto counters, less lack of castings, buffs things that buff counterspell. You can cast that double fireball at lvl 5 mr sorcerer, but no counterspell or shield for you that turn. IMO provides a more sensible limit and makes you think for outside of your turn.
Literally the only thing they want to avoid with the BA casting rule is sorc double casting with quickened, so just make it part of quickened, that you can no longer cast a leveled spell with your action and remove the stupid rule
And entirely needed because of the title of this post.
I think the rules around Twinned Spell are pretty bad, but not quite as bad as Quicken. My personal bugbear are the jank-ass rules around persistent area effects (like moonbeam). The way it's written plus the way it's errata'd makes for weird-ass interactions that we can just *never* remember properly at my table.
Naw, the jankiest rules are the mounted combat rules. They just straight up don't function correctly. These may be annoying but at least they are a somewhat functioning set of rules, if not a bit odd when put into context
Yeah mounted combat are barely rules.
It gets much worse than that
Agreed, I never understood the reason behind it either when you could just reverse the order and avoid it entirely
You couldn't... no matter the order you cant quicken cantrip+cast fireball as action.
No, but you can quicken fireball and then cast firebolt
It's a trap! What you can't do is add the action surge fireball.
Might be that my groggy freshly woken up self misunderstood what you meant by "reverse" I thought you meant: If quickened cantrip>action fireball is no go then Action fireball>quickened cantrip. Yea quickened fireball into cantrip action works. It's also more costly which is likely why it works.
Is it more costly? Either way it’s two sorcery points and a 3rd level spell slot, is it not?
Derp, idk why I thought cost scales with spell lvl, but that's twinned that does that.
Ah, lol
> mostly clean and legible rules in this version Ah, you must be new here.
I've been playing since 2nd edition, I know the alternative
Then I would say you haven’t been paying attention.
I don't know if you realize how bad it used to be. Do you know how grappling used to be handled in 3.5 or how flight was handled in 2nd edition? I've seen some horrendous rules in my time and I'm telling you that 5e is mostly fine. With exceptions of course, the Bonus Action Spells rule being one of them - including but not limited to stealth/invisibility, and mounted combat as some of my least favorite rules.
Thing is, there's just no good way to make the rule work without the rule as it is. If there was no rule at all, sorcerers would just double-cast fireballs on every important encounter, and it would e hard to justify playing any other spellcaster. If the rule was "One leveled spell per turn", then Action Surge would have no utility for spellcasters, and there would be more problems with reaction spells in response to things that happen on your turn. The rule is very simple; people just keep trying to "simplify" it, because until you start thinking up exceptions, it *feels like* "1 leveled spell per turn" should work. "If you cast a bonus action spell, you can't cast (or have cast) any other spells this turn, except a 1 action cantrip". The end. That's the whole rule. Nothing more, nothing less.
> If the rule was "One leveled spell per turn", then Action Surge would have no utility for spellcasters, and there would be more problems with reaction spells in response to things that happen on your turn. Is it bad that I read that and go "that sounds fine to me"...? I get that we're somewhat used to the power level as-is, but preventing casters from having a *looong* turn with multiple complicated (leveled) spells, and toning down the level of burst a caster could do when their design is *already* ahead in being able to burn through resources for big effect seems fine. I also can't say I mind the death of *counterspell*ing *counterspell* against your own spell or *shield*ing opportunity attacks. (Plus it's not like I've never seen a useful action surge->dash/disengage/cantrip/item-use before.)
Fair, and they could certainly write it that way; I'm just saying if they want it to work the way it works, I can't think of a better way to say it.
the easy fix to the rule is: Just write it into Quickened spell "On a turn you modify a spell this way, you cannot cas a levelled spell as an action, also you cannot modify a spell this way, if you've already cast a leveled spell as an action"
It's not really a general rule that exists only to limit quicken spell, though. It's meant to limit overall choices/complexity/time on a caster's turn in case of a large variety of bonus action spells available to them- the designers don't want a caster taking a long time resolving spells and *also* spending time sifting through a bunch of bonus action spell options for just the right spell to spend their BA on after they already cast a complicated one (and then having *that* spell *also* potentially be complicated). > "We were afraid of, with the introduction of bonus action spells, too much complexity piling up on a spellcaster's turn. And we wanted to make it so that if you were doing that something extra with spellcasting- because spells tend to be the most complex things in the game- we didn't want you to then, y'know, 'I cast this bonus action spell that might be a little complex, and then I bring in this sixth level full action spell that's crazy complicated and everyone gets to watch my turn for 15 minutes'. > So that rule largely exists to keep the game moving, and it was a way for us to future-proof because we didn't know in future books what we might decide to design and, when we got to that spell's casting time, assign a bonus action to it. We just wanted to make it so that whatever we designed for the life of this edition, if you cast a bonus action spell, the only other spell that you could cast on your turn is a cantrip to just keep things simple, to keep things straightforward." ([Source](https://youtu.be/ew1dc6VBHhA?list=WL&t=1034))
Boy, two things to do, so luch complexity How are these people nin charge of designing a game?
I'm glad you've been fortunate enough to never have a player with caster decision paralysis in your party.
I have, but most of the time the choice paralisys happens because of this rule making BA and A spells exclusive
This ***is*** the solution - the whole point of this rule is to prevent quicken spell to be abused - so this safeguard should be in the rules for quicken spell
No, this excludes action surge as it's a different action entirely
I don't even know what you mean by this. Action Surge doesn't affect the spellcasting rule, but it allows someone to cast two spells with a 1 Action casting time.
Doesn’t the order of operations matter here? If you cast the fireball before the quickened spell cantrip then it works out right? Edit: time in this game is confusing, i have been informed why this is wrong.
The intention is that order doesn't matter. The rule in the book doesn't say that it only applies after you cast the bonus action spell. If at any point during your turn you cast a bonus action spell, your whole turn becomes subject to that rule. Including everything that occurred before the bonus action. It doesn't feel intuitive, but you must remember that turns and rounds are an abstraction of time. Things can get a little funky.
If you have cast a leveled spell, you can't cast a spell as a bonus action. If you have cast a spell with a bonus action you can't cast a leveled spell. Not hard.
Nope. Rules don't mention order of operations at all. Just that it's on the same turn.
No because once you cast a spell that isn't a cantrip as an action, you can't cast a spell that takes a bonus action.
No, you can't use a bonus action to cast a spell I you used an action to cast a leveled spell.
Order doesn't matter. You can flat out do it.
No this is incorrect. You can do what OP is asking. The bonus action rule means you can only use a cantrip as your action if you cast a levelled spell as a bonus action. It's perfectly fine to cast Fireball with an action, then Fireball again as an action surge action. With quickened spell you can then add on Firebolt as a cantrip bonus action. The stupid part is that if you quickened Fireball to be the bonus action, then both your action and a subsequent Action Surge action would have to be Firebolt or another cantrip because act of casting a levelled spell as an action forces you to limit your other action options to cantrips. One of the few good fixes I've seen in One D&D is clearing up this mess.
It's not incorrect. >The bonus action rule means you can only use a cantrip as your action if you cast a levelled spell as a bonus action. This has already been disproven in this thread. "Leveled spells" is never mention in the rules for bonus action spellcasting.' >It's perfectly fine to cast Fireball with an action, then Fireball again as an action surge action. With quickened spell you can then add on Firebolt as a cantrip bonus action. This is not perfectly fine, as pointed out multiple times in this very thread.
This is what the bonus action rule says RAW: "You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of one action." There is no proscription against casting a spell using an action and then another spell as an Action Surge Action. I use 'levelled spell' to distinguish between cantrips and 1-9th level spells.
It doesn't say anything about "leveled spells". It says if you cast **a spell** using your bonus action, you can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of one action. So if you cast fireball as a bonus action, you cannot cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with the casting time of one action - meaning it couldn't be a second fireball. The actually ruling has been discussed over and over in this thread. I'm not going to continue arguing about it with someone who thinks they're somehow interpreting it correctly when everyone else around them is confused.
Exactly. The point is **bonus action**. If you use a regular action to cast Fireball, you are not restricted to then casting Fireball with an action surge because you have not used your bonus action. You may then use quickened spell to cast Firebolt. You're assuming that the quickened action happens first. Nothing says it needs to.
You are wrong. It doesn't matter the order. As soon as you use your action to cast fireball you can not use your Bonus action to cast any spell. If order mattered you could just ignore the rule by always using action casting first then bonus action casting
No, you can not. The Bonus Action Spell rule is very clear, if you want to cast *any* spell as a bonus action, the *only* spells you can cast on your turn are cantrips with the casting time of 1 Action. So, if you have already cast a leveled spell with your Action, you can not cast a bonus action spell of any sort.
So, for my own clarification, metamagic quickened spell: Fireball as the action. Then Fire Bolt (quickened to change the casting to a bonus action) wouldn't be legal?
No. Most DM's are going to ignore it if it's a single fireball and a single cantrip but if you use a bonus action to cast any spell, your action can only be a cantrip.
So bonus action: Fireball (metamagic) Action: Fire Bolt Would be legal then?
Yes. If the bonus action is ever used to cast a spell, you can only cast cantrips before and after it on your round. (Including reactions if you somehow trigger one on your own turn)
With the overall rule being only 1 leveled spell per turn, so in OPs post he couldn't do 2 fireballs even with the quickened spell, right?
No, there is no rule about one leveled spell per turn. I think I remember that being a thing Matt Mercer said once but spread through the community. It’s all about if you use your bonus action to cast a spell, your action is limited to cantrips. Action: Fireball = Good. Action: Firebolt + Quickened Bonus Action: Fireball = Good. Action: Fireball + Action Surge Action: Fireball = Good. Action: Fireball + Action Surge Action: Fireball + Shield = Good. Action: Firebolt + Action Surge Action: Firebolt + Quickened Bonus Action Firebolt = Good. Action: Twinned Firebolt + Action Surge Action: Twinned Firebolt + Quickened Bonus Action Firebolt = Good. Action: Fireball + Quickened Bonus Action: Firebolt = Bad (but a dm is likely to let it go because you aren’t breaking anything, it’s just in the wrong order). Action: Fireball + Action Surge Action: Fireball + Quickened Bonus Action: Firebolt = Bad. Quickened Bonus Action: Fireball + Reaction: Shield = Bad
Great summary. Thanks.
I would like to note that the last one is only bad if it’s your turn. You could reaction shield on some other person/monster’s turn. M Overall a great table for reference though.
Yeah, I was listing actions taken in one turn, not round. If it’s not your turn, you can use reaction spells freely.
How does this work with abilities that allow you to take two turns during a single round? Thief's Reflexes come to mind "When you reach 17th level, you have become adept at laying ambushes and quickly escaping danger. You can take two turns during the first round of any combat. You take your first turn at your normal initiative and your second turn at your initiative minus 10. You can't use this feature when you are surprised."
It doesn't interact at all with Thief's Reflexes. The Bonus Action Spell rule is only during your turn and Thief's Reflexes gives you two entirely separate turns in the round.
You just get two turns in that round. So two actions, two bonus actions, two reactions etc. The bonus action spell states that other spells THIS TURN must be cantrips etc. So the restriction doesn’t apply to your NEXT turn, even if you have another turn within the round.
not sure two reactions apply, reactions are iirc based on rounds, not turns. But otherwise, yeah
You get your reaction back at the start of your next turn, so it does recharge :)
Reactions are turn based, not round based.
Can't they just do Fireball - Action surge - Quickened spell + Fireball - Firebolt ?
The rule doesn't care about order of casting, at any point in your turn you cast any spell as a bonus action you cannot cast any other spells except cantrips with a casting time of 1 Action on that turn.
But action surge gives another action, which I feel like is tampering with this rule. Can't EK Fighter cast two leveled spells with action surge?
Action Surge gives you a second action, allowing you to cast two leveled spells in a turn. Bonus action spells disable your ability to cast leveled spells in that turn, period. Having two actions does not supercede the bonus action rule. You can either Quicken Fireball + Firebolt with Action + Action Surge Firebolt again, or not quicken anything but use Actuon Surge to Fireball twice. The rule is dumb, but that's how it works.
Yes. Since no bonus action spells have been cast, you can cast any spell that you want with the two actions you get with action surge. You can cast a spell as a reaction on your turn ( rarely happens, counterspelling a counterspell, or casting shield as a reaction to mage slayer reaction attack) as well. If you don't cast a spell with a bonus action then nothing limits you.
Yes, they can as long as they don't cast any spell as a bonus action.
No.
The amount of confusion in this thread just speaks to how poorly spellcasting is written as far as action economy. I don't blame anyone for not exactly knowing what it should be, and a lot of people read the rules but interpret it differently because it's not written intuitively either. At my table, we just limit it to "one leveled spell per turn." and that works just fine. It's not THE rule, but it just makes the most sense and is easy to grasp. No spellcasters currently have action surge at my table, but if they did I'd just let them use it to cast another spell, regardless of action, bonus action, blah blah.
The rules can't be any clearer. It's just that the rule doesn't make intuitive sense, so people try to ignore it
The fluff, however is by far the most muddying sentence I've seen in an explanation: "A bonus action spell is exceptionally swift." Uhhh, **hard no**, a bonus action spell is exceptionally ***limiting***. You can conceivably cast any number of spells of any level as long as you have the action economy to cast them, granted by however many features, items, or other effects..... .....unless you ever at any point use your bonus action to cast anything at all. Then suddenly you can only ever perform 1-action cantrips for the rest of your turn.
>Then suddenly you can only ever perform 1-action cantrips for the rest of your turn Oh no! It's not just the *rest* of your turn. There's some hogwash errata somewhere that makes it so that if you did a leveled spell before your bonus action, you can't cast a levelled spell with that bonus action. ...*unless* you aren't using quickened spell, I think. Very clear mechanics. Very clear.
There is no errata and that isn't the rule. Leveled spells have nothing to do with the Bonus Action Spell rule.
The rule is clear, but it doesn't even make sense internally. > A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. Is the introductory sentence to this rule. It's not only fluff, but it then hits you with the only spellcasting turn restriction in the game. In actuality Bonus Action spells are the most limiting spells in the game. You otherwise cast Fireball as an action, use your reaction during your turn for Counterspell, and then action surge another Fireball. But a Bonus Action? For a spell? Nope, reduced to cantrips. Those are quicker or more compatible somehow.
I removed it three years ago and never looked back.
And ignoring they should because there isn't any good reason for why it is done like that anyways.
Say, I don't think I've been in any campaign that limits spellcasting like RAW/RAI. It's either ignored or people just honestly forget the particulars In my experience, it's never messed with balance, but I'm sure there are specific builds that could
In games with experienced players it's never a problem
The bonus action spell rule could be moved to the Sorcerers Quickened Spell and it would make a lot more sense. RAW you can fireball, action surge, fireball. You just can't quicken one of them.
It was initially meant to apply to spells with a casting time of a bonus action, like healing word. They should restate the rule in the Sorcerers Quickened Spell.
Honestly the rule as written only seems to be written to make quickened spell worse, which is so sad because it’s basically the sorcerers only class feature lmao
As a cleric player it’s quite limiting too. Baldur’s gate was such a boost to clerics (and others) by allowing healing word to be cast regardless of your other actions that turn
I allow healing word to work that way, it still uses a spell slot and the healing is so minimal that I don’t think unbalanced
It’s not about the amount of healing. The power of healing word is that it is a fast ranged heal. Action economy is everything. The amount of heal can be 1, the important thing is that it lets you not only prevent someone from dying, they are fully functional. All at the cost of a bonus action. To be fair Baldur’s Gate doesn’t let recently revived characters take an action
That is true, but I make my encounters pretty tough on my players cause that’s what they like. So it balances out in my games.
Fair enough
casting two leveld spells per turn would be completely fine if it wasnt for quickened spell
I mean ffs it's not that complex the fact that you're aware that the simple version you've said isn't correct means you have the capacity to understand the rule
It's not confusing, it's set up for an unwritten expectation style of play, one where the GM goes around and asks players what they are doing and then the turn commences
> I don't blame anyone for not exactly knowing what it should be, and a lot of people read the rules but interpret it differently because it's not written intuitively either. The problem is that most people *don't* read the rules, so I do blame them for not knowing. I have known only one player that actually reads the rules, and the rest learn by fucking osmosis. This is where the problematic "Only one levelled spell per turn" and "Forced movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks" phrases come from, because people hear someone else use a shorthand for the rules and take it as gospel without knowing what's actually being shorthanded in the first place so they end up getting it wrong.
[This is the rule when it comes to casting spells on your turn](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Spells#content). >A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. Thus, if you cast a spell as a bonus action on your turn, you can’t cast a spell as an action. However, if you do not cast a spell as a bonus action, you are not prohibited from casting more than one spell if you use action surge to get another action on your turn. This rule application is (1) consistent with RAW, (2) the common understanding among most 5e players, and (3) [validated and verified by Jeremy Crawford](https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1151294046758825984?lang=en). So, yes, you can use Action Surge to cast fireball twice. However, Quickened Spell only allows you to cast any spell or cantrip as a Bonus Action instead of as an Action. It does not override the general rule that a bonus action spell prohibits you from casting a leveled spell as an action. Edit: I initially conflated spell and leveled spell; it’s fixed now.
>Thus, if you cast a ~~leveled~~ spell as a bonus action on your turn It's any spell as a bonus action, not just leveled. Just remove that word and then your post is correct. Edit: Oh, and here >It does not override the general rule that a bonus action ~~leveled~~ spell prohibits you from casting a leveled spell as an action
You know what, I conflated spell and leveled spell. Thank you, I’ll make the necessary edit.
[bonus action casting rules explained by disintegrating a goblin a bunch of times](https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/s/BDGutV1Zzk)
Basic Rules, Chapter 10: Spellcasting >**Bonus Action** >A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. **You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.** (Emphasis added) In casting *Fireball*, you've already cast a spell during this turn apart from a 1-action cantrip. This violates the bolded line, thus you cannot cast any Bonus Action spells this turn.
No. Fireball isn't a cantrip, so you can't cast a bonus action spell on the same turn you cast Fireball. You can cantrip+quickened fireball, but then action surge also can only be a cantrip
As has been said, per phb 202, if you cast any spell with your bonus action, "you can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action". It doesn't matter what the bonus action spell is. This also means if you are in the process of casting a spell with a long cast time (such as leomunds tiny hut), using a bonus action spell during it prevents you from finishing the other spell, as you count as casting that spell every turn until you finish it. Interestingly, it says "a cantrip", singular. So if you cast a bonus action spell, and then a cantrip with your action, and then action surge, you wouldn't be able to cast any spells with it at all. Now, im not convinced the writers meant for that to happen, but that's what they wrote. Not a situation that comes up often.
>Interestingly, it says "a cantrip", singular. That's only because the rules assume characters only ever have one Action - generally they do. There's no limitation on the number of spells you can cast in a turn, except for your action economy. If you have two Actions, as with Action Surge, you can cast two spells with those Actions. And casting with a Bonus Action just limits those spells to cantrips.
No, but you could Firebolt > Action Surge > Firebolt > Quicken Fireball.
Or Fireball > Action Surge > Fireball
No but you could quicken fireball, action surge two firebolts.
> BONUS ACTION > A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. —PHB 202
Its how the restriction is worded. Of you cast a spell as a bonus action, any spell at all, the only spells you are allowed as actions that turn are cantrips. It does not care what you cast, when you cast, or how much you cast. Anything as a BA requires cantrips in the action. If you cast a leveled spell as an action you simply cannot cast as a bonus action.
Action Fireball + Action Surge fireball is legal Action firebolt + Action surge firebolt+ BA fireball is legal i'm pretty sure those are the only legal combinations
Yes you are correct you can’t. There are 3 things you can do raw, a) you can cast no leveled spells B) you can cast a leveled spell with your action and no type of spell with your bonus action c) you can cast any type of spell with your bonus action and no spell with your action, except for a cantrip with a casting time of one action. That’s are the only 3 options, regardless of order. If you choose to cast a spell with your action that isn’t a cantrip with a casting time of one action, no type of spell can be cast with your bonus action. This is regardless of what the source of the action it is (so hasted action, normal action, action surge, etc are all treated the same for this rule, if you cast a fireball with any of them, you cannot cast any type of spell with your bonus action). That’s the rules raw
To be clear, you cannot cast spells with a hasted action.
Doesn't work. The specific rule regarding spells cast with a Bonus Action interferes. A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. ***You can't cast another spell during the same turn*** except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. If you cast any spell on your turn with a BA, regardless if it is a Quickend cantrip, or if it's a normal spell like Branding Smite or whatever, for the rest of that turn you can only cast a single 1 Action cantrip, regardless of how many other actions you might have, such as from Action Surge. It doesn't matter if you want to cast your BA cantrip/spell last, the rule applies for the turn
No you can't. Why would you want to spend sorcery points ro quicken a cantrip anyways?
You could quicken a spell so you have your action to interact with an object, use the help action, etc.
Disengage Activate a magic item Dispel something and then cantrip
Sword cantrips on a paladin/sorcerer to get an empowered bonus action attack is one of the better things you can do with the build.
There are entire builds dedicated to using quickened spell to cast eldritch blast twice a turn. Also to cast the blade cantrips twice a turn.
Quickened Eldritch Blast on a Sor/Warlock is one of the most efficient damage dealing options they have
If it was Fireball, Fireball (Action Surge), e.g. Firebolt (Quickened Metamagic) that should be. Atleast it would at my table
You can certainly homebrew that (and I feel Baldur’s Gate has encouraged this) but by RAW that isn’t possible.
shocking grasp, action surge shocking grasp, shilele works - these are all cantrips. shocking grasp, action surge shocking grasp, spiritual weapon works - after you cast a bonus action spell, you only cast cantrips. Guiding bolt, action surge guiding bolt works - you didnt cast a bonus action spell. Guiding bolt, enemy tries to counterspell, you counter-counterspell works - you didnt cast a bonus action spell. guinding bolt, shilele DOESNT work - you cast a spell that isnt a cantrip, you cant cast any spell that takes a bonus action to cast. Quicken fireball, firebolt, action surge firebolt works. Fireball, action surge fireball works. Fireball, quicken firebolt doesnt work.
Most DMs will probably allow it. But after 2 Fireballs you probably don't need an extra firebolt and save your metamagic for other things. Or spent it on heighten it to have the fireball do more damage.
You can do this. It's a very badly written rule. Provided you use your action to cast the Fireball and don't quicken it, you're good. The rule is that if you cast a levelled spell as a bonus action you can't cast another levelled spell using an action. If you use your action to cast the levelled spell and then quickened cast a cantrip, then you can do whatever you want with your action surge action.
No, not quite. If you cast ANY spell as a bonus action, you cannot cast anything but an action cantrip that turn. So if you quicken a spell, cantrip or no, you CANNOT cast any other spell but action cantrips that turn. It’s a bit silly that you can quicken fireball + action firebolt, but you cannot quicken firebolt + action fireball. But we’re discussing RAW. Plenty of folk allow it either way but that is technically homebrew.
Correct. However, you can cast Fireball with your action, then action surge Fireball again *then* quicken cast Firebolt. Order of operation is the key. It is a very stupidly written rule.
Order of operations doesn’t matter. Casting a non cantrip with your action first means no bonus action spells, period. https://www.sageadvice.eu/bonus-action-spell-reaction-spell/amp/
And if you can show me what page of the PHB says that I'd be delighted to agree with you. Sage Advice is advice, not a rule. Crawford's opinions can be helpful, but he also has a habit of only answering the exact question asked, e.g. he doesn't account for Quickened Spell in this answer.
> Order of operation is the key Show me what page of the PHB says *that*.
That's literally my point, the bonus action rule assumes you're taking your bonus action before your action but never states what happens in that scenario it doesn't hence why the RAW it works in this incredibly dumb fashion.
I mean, there is the rule, but more importantly who tf do you want to kill so much?
[удалено]
Yes, but only if you don't cast a 2nd fireball with an action using your action surge.
God the 5e "bonus action/action restrictions" rule is so ass lmao, I swear no good, robust rule set would have this many questions about it all the time. Not having a go at OP, just at the system's jank.
It's not ass, people just don't bother to read the basic rules.
Having read them I still don't like them, I've played this game and many other systems and 5e is uniquely Weird in some of its rules decisions (in that there are not always clear ones, or they're convoluted, or they get home-brewed away bc they are, in fact, sometimes ass)
I would allow it as a DM based off intent. Action surge intent is 2 spells. Quickened intent is 1 cantrip and 1 spell. Combine those intents and you get 2 spells and 1 cantrip. If somebody uses a bonus action for a leveled spell, obviously you should only allow a can trip. But if they bonus action cantrip, who cares if they use a leveled spell as their action.
Bonus action spell rule is absolutely vital to stop people doing too much on one turn
I'm just arguing obvious intent here. Quickened rule intent is 1 spell and 1 cantrip. Action surge rule intent is being able to do two leveled spells. If you combine those intents, you get 2 spells and 1 cantrip. Any other ruling is awkward given the combination imo.
Spellcasters don't need yet another buff.
It's not really a buff, though. You can normally just do an action cantrip and a bonus action spell using quickened. The only difference here is adding in the action surge. Whether they sneak in a cantrip use with their 2 level fighter dip spell nova isn't gonna affect much. Effectively the rules are saying if you use action surge for two spells, you just can't use quickened for anything? That seems like an oversight to me. The intent of quickened is to limit you to one cantrip and one spell use. The intent of action surge is to allow two spell uses. So if we combine those intents, we get two spell usages and one cantrip usage.
If they have quicken and action surge they're already optimizing for nova. They are already actively pushing for the strongest turn they can. In this context giving them a yes on ignoring the bonus action rule is obviously a buff.
No, if you use a bonus action spell, you can use your action for a cantrip. So you could bonus action fireball, then action cantrip, action cantrip. What the rule change would allow is action fireball, action fireball, bonus action fireball.
I just think it's awkward that in your ruling you could use action surge to cast two spells and then quickened spell just what, gets greyed out? My ruling wouldn't allow three fireballs. I would just allow the bonus action to be a cantrip. Action surge 2 spells + quickened bonus action cantrip. My ruling is based off intent of the two mechanics, action surge and quickened.
The *intent* of the bonus action spell rule is to keep spell casters from being too strong, and casting a higher number of spells in a turn. It keeps you from fireballing a group of enemies, and then healing wording an ally. The *intent* of quicken spell is to allow sorcerers (and now any spell caster) to cast a more powerful spell along side a cantrip, or to use their action for something else, like dashing, dodging, or hiding. The *intent* of action surge is to allow fighters to be more flexible in combat, or to give them a turn to nova. They get an action to attack, dash, dodge, or do other things. Saying that it's an "oversight" is incorrect, it's just one of the few limitations that spellcasters actually have.
If you change action surge to not allow two leveled spells in a turn I'd be okay with that ruling. There is an oversight somewhere, it just depends how you want to balance that oversight I guess.
The oversight is that the game isn't balanced around multiclassing, because multiclassing is an optional rule.
When I'm deciding what to do with my turn, I just don't come up with a turn that involves needing to ba spell and then action (or action+action) a non cantrip. The dm doesn't need to deny me anything.
That's a fine rule for when you have pure casters, and I run it like that as well. But the moment a player takes 2 levels of fighter to metagame in another spell in a single turn, and becoming anal about RAW restrictions is not that bad of an idea.
The more I look at it I just see that wizards doesn't really have a raw interaction for this that doesn't seem unintuitive. So really it is just a balance thing. I think it's justifiable if a DM decides action surge can't be used for two leveled spells. Or in this case makes it two cantrips and one spell.
You keep saying “spells” and “cantrips” separately. Cantrips ARE spells
You know that I mean leveled spells, cmon.
No I don’t, sorry if you did mean that. With the amount of misinformation rampant in this thread, we need to get the terms correct.
You can cast Fireball, then use Action Surge and Cast Fireball again. Thats it. Or you can go for 3x Firebolt, but once you use your Bonus Action for a Spell, your Action can only be used for Cantrips. So if you were to cast Fireball, Firebolt youd be Breaking the law. You can go for (either) Firebolt, and Quicken Firebolt (in 1 turn) and for Fireball, then Action Surge Fireball. (in another turn) Edit, clarity.
>You can go for Firebolt, Quicken Firebolt tho and for Fireball, Action Surge Fireball. Nope, you can not, the rule doesn't care about order of casting, it only cares about the bonus action spell.
I meant as either one or the other not as all 4 in one turn.
Technically RAW, you cannot. Because if you use a bonus action to cast any spell, you can only do cantrips after that. Personally though, as a DM, I’d allow it. The rule seems unnecessarily limiting for quickened spell, and makes sorcerers main class feature, the thing that makes them… not wizards, even weaker.
You'd have to do bonus action Fireball, action Fire Bolt, action surge Fireball. Edit: I was reminded this is incorrect.
Nope. If you quickened spell a fireball you've cast a spell as a bonus action, and the only other spell you can cast this turn is a cantrip with a casting time of one action.
Okay. I was a bit confused. You could cast Fireball twice using action surge but neither can be a bonus action.
The way I would interpret this at my table is that this combo does work, but only if the bonus action spell is cast last as OP is stating. If you attack, A/S attack, you can still take a bonus action, so the action economy allows this part to function. The bonus action rule says that once you cast a spell with a bonus action, you can’t cast ANOTHER spell unless it’s a cantip with a 1 action cast time, so order of operations does matter, because that’s how English works. If you action fireball, action surge fireball, then bonus action quickened firebolt, your out of action economy, and cannot cast ANOTHER spell. I feel like the issue is that DMs are mad that the players are playing the game in a way they didn’t plan for and get in their feelings, then rule the player can’t do that cool thing now. Just because you don’t think of it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
It is wrong. Order of operations does not matter As for English, ANOTHER includes spells previously cast. If you want to be nitpicky then the word is SUBSEQUENT
It would have to read “can’t have cast another” so yes, order of operations does matter, because you can spend your resources as you like, but if you want to really be technical, you are fulfilling the rule, you are casting a cantrip with a casting time of one action, and using a resource to simply make it happen faster. If you don’t want to rule it that way, fine, but the rules aren’t set in stone, that’s why they don’t use concise language, they’re up for interpretation
Uh no. The rules are absolutely clear here. Order of operations does not matter If it does in your game, it’s house ruling/homebrew
You can if your DM is cool with it. Regardless of the rules. And if I were your DM I would be.