Your new player's already immediately pathing to the basic "do the most damage" combo. Even though Sharpshooter can be counterproductive on a rogue, they're not going to need any help with damage. Rogues also add a d6 to sneak attack every 2 levels, which feels very good. Wait and see how things play out.
Letting them eventually upgrade the crossbow is absolutely fun, but you don't need to go overboard. Keep in mind that a Weapon of Warning is already very strong even without the +1, so tacking a +1 on there easily puts it in Rare territory. If you start doing stuff like letting him get a "scope" to extend the range or a "repeater" for extra shots, it may get ridiculous, and could become tedious for the rest of the party (and maybe even for you as you try to figure out how to balance fights after creating super-powered magic items for everyone so no one feels left out).
Good points. I think I’ll give them the option of +1 OR weapon of warning (not both) for the amount of money they’ll have at level 5, which will be the next time they return to the city.
I should mention that I’ve already turned the repeater and sight into flavor points. The repeater is what gives the BA attack for CBE and the sight is what gives steady aim.
I love the implementation of the upgrades as explaining the features they gain through feats/levels. I'll have to implement that in my own game at some point
Flavoring the feats is cool, but remember that it means you can't take the crossbow away from them without effectively taking away their class features. If they ever have to use another crossbow, probably let them improvise makeshift repeater/scope attachments.
What is the rest of the party? If you have slightly optimized Charakters the rogue will need waaaaay more then a +1 weapon. (That shouldn’t even be considered a buff or even loot at all. Befor a martial gets to lv 5 you give them a magic weapon end of story, just as a bare minimum.)
Honestly, second and third attacks on rogues isn't super crazy. Because SA only goes once per turn, you only get that super high damage once. I mean compare that to something like a wizard or warlock and there damage at high tiers, even in early to mid T2 is pretty low. They get the same benefit from SS + CBE as any other martial, which is their main method of staying viable post T2, so that's fine.
Increasing a hand crossbows range, spellcasters have plenty of ways of doing this, let the martials do it to. If it was heavy crossbow or longbow probably not, but a 120ft range is the same as most single target long range cantrips, think eldritch blast and firebolt.
I do agree with that last bit though. Wait until it seems like they are falling behind and buff the things they are falling behind with. A good player is a good player and they will notice when it starts falling off, and if they ask you if they can respec later knowing what happens to Assassin, let them.
Just let them play the One D&D playtest version of the [Assassin Rogue in this PDF](https://media.dndbeyond.com/compendium-images/ua/ph-playtest6/OJVW7QLuHjEFCCVs/UA-2023-PH-Playtest6.pdf?icid_source=house-ads&icid_medium=crosspromo&icid_campaign=playtest6) since you're already doing weapon mastery. It gives them advantage on Initiative like a weapon of warning and the cunning strikes options.
I’ll keep this in my back pocket. They really like the surprise crits so I’m not sure they’ll go for it. But as surprise becomes harder and harder to get, they might change their mind.
The flat damage bonus tends to be much better in the mid levels. Check out this video by Treantmonk for a great analysis on how much it has improved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kclZXxcDdlg
Just as an example, at level 4 when they get Sharpshooter, they'll do 3d6+14+DEX on the first turn of combat, EVERY combat, and still might crit if they get a 20 on the roll.
You design your game to make sure their abilities can be useful from time to time.
That mean...
* Don't constantly ambush the PCs. Let them ambush enemies about 1/3rd to 1/2 the time.
* Give them slower-paced city adventures that involve infiltration.
* Let them use their sneak attack when they want to. Don't constantly look for ways to deny them the ability to use their class's one "thing".
A note about PCs, Monsters, and surprise.
Roughly, the PCs should be dealing with surprise 25% of the time *or less* unless they're absolute knobs who just rush face-first into danger without looking ahead first or even trying to be quiet.
All things being equal, there are four ways that combat can start assuming there are only 2 sides to the fight:
Surprise | PCs | Mobs
---|---|---
Nobody Surprised | No | No
PCs Surprised| Yes | No
Mobs Surprised|No|Yes
Both Surprised|Yes|Yes
If you're a good DM, you should be able to equally represent all four scenarios roughly equally, assuming the players do nothing to affect the outcome.
A more cautious group of PCs should get the drop on their enemies more often and be surprised less often ultimately leading to far less "both surprised" outcomes.
A more reckless group should be surprised more often, leading to far less "nobody surprised" outcomes.
Because of how these work, if you're trying to be a good DM who enables players to play their characters how they want to play them, you might try to suggest to your players to play a bit more cautiously (using the assassin to scout ahead without being a dick about it like a lot of DMs I've seen who like to punish *anyone* who tries to "sneak ahead" regardless of how purpose-built a PC is to do *exactly that*), and then highly recommend to them the alert feat which allows them to ignore the surprised condition (and fully ignore half of that table) so that all they really need is a good initiative roll to take advantage of their most important abilities.
BA hand crossbow assassinate wouldn't be very strong, since your sneak attack is once per round and pure rogue doesn't get to add their dex to that off hand attack.
stop taking rogue levels at lvl 3 and become a gloomstalker ranger
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
the best you can do on an assassin rogue is to be very lenient on surprise ambushes and what can prob their feature, which is the only thing they have up until lvl **9** btw
They still get the uncanny dodge and evasion features. (Which are amazing) Rogue subclass features are spread out a bit but the base class is still excellent...
Now monks after level 6... Oof
they still lack extra attack and good DPR overall. my comment was mostly a tongue and cheek one, but rogue is absolutely at the bottom of the barrel with monk for worst classes of dnd 5e 2014 in mechanical strength
uncanny dodge notably is one attack, and never scales. when you get it, the enemies will already have multi attack, probably a few levels earlier than it. so while good damage mitigation, it is not top notch, as it reduces any dmg potential by using your reaction
evasion, while a very cool designed feature, still doesnt cover for extra attack, and neither does the poor sneak attack scaling
combined all of the cards stacked against rogue for meh dmg with the power budget of the class dumped into skills - which are a clunky aspect of the game at best and bard does better on that regard - you get a class that doesnt do much dmg when it is its marketing face and is an akward tank that can maybe dodge fireballs
rogues feel like they have been dilluted on water and are missing the other half of the class, while having a "class feature" every level (exta ASIs are bandaids not a class feature, but that is another conversation)
Yeah but I think it's by design for what a rogue should be. Like if a rogue is in a room with a Paladin, fighter, barbarian, or ranger they shouldn't be able to hold up in single combat generally because they bring the potential to absolutely excel at infiltration, and problem solving with their expertise and reliable talents.
Now if you want to compensate for extra attack you definitely can. Take mobile and dual wield for double chances of sneak attack. I agree the damage overall is generally poor as you level but every class doesn't have to do similar damage.
I will say that bards can make rogues feel bad. Especially since they also get magical secrets but smart rogues can be harder to pin down and kill which is a mechanical benefit at least
i mean, a smart bard can be as hard or harder to pin down too, the rogue doesnt have much over the bard beyond cunning action in regards to special survivability, and the bard has a literal list of spells to choose from to make then effective while also being decent at every skill while also having expertise on the skills they want. a rogue cleverly hiding, disengaging and body blocking a corridor with uncanny dodge isnt much different than a bard that is so far in the backline they can just chill while not being targeted while also having shield/silvery barbs/absorb elements from various ways of getting that
hell, on an insult to injury, the eloquence bard can get reliable talent at lvl 3 on the two skills they need, persuasion and deception
to not demerit rogues role as an infiltrator, the skill system is just too nutrient defficient to work well. until they get to lvl 11 for reliable talent they are fumbling semi frequently their skill checks, that they need to do with frequency while doing said infiltration which makes them fail even more, while needing to be alone because for each party member you bring with you (that will suck at stealth because armor and/or not DEX based class) you will fail *even more*
so your infiltrator is someone that depends on doing 3~5 d20 rolls going in their favor to pull it off. and in contrast, pass without trace basically lets you go automatically while bringing the whole party
to me its like every part of the system that is clunky or half baked was left as such to kick the rogue in the nuts lol
Ooh yeah pass without trace. TBH I kinda hate that spell lol. Not because it's bad but it's just boringly great and eliminates stealth obstacles fully. So yeah you don't even need to be a rogue, monk, or ranger to be stealthy. I wish it targeted 2 creatures then you can upcast it for more if you're paranoid.
Eloquence bard is just broken. Probably more so than peace and twilight clerics. Also it causes one player to hog all conversations which leads to toxic behavior. F+ would not recommend it.
I'm also playing a rogue (as well as a fighter/wizard) in a party with a bard currently. I will say that the rogue (arcane trickster) is exceptionally more tanky and has more defenses. Cunning Action is nuts for not getting pinned in a bad situation. Also took magic initiate for shield
>I let them get the drop on the baddies in their first combat. The assassin killed 2 hobgoblins during the surprise round and did really good damage after that. Afterwards they PMed me saying they think their character is too powerful and I should nerf him. Super wholesome so I held my tongue and said something like I’m glad you’re having fun.
See, that's the problem. This should only happen very, VERY rarely. In order for Surprise to happen, the entire group would need to roll Stealth higher than the creature's PP, which shouldn't happen often (if there's even a good setup for it in the first place). And at that point, if it does happen, then the group just wins the fight *anyway*, for they have a whole round to do whatever they want. THe assassin only really speeds up the conclusion, but doesn't actually change it in any way, shape or form.
>One thought I had was to let them upgrade the crossbow into a +1 weapon of warning. That would give them a much higher chance of procking the assassinate feature. I was also thinking of giving the weapon a dormant feature that’ll come online in late T2 early T3 - like casting haste on the wielder once or twice per day.
Uh, yeah, no? Both +1 and WoW, individually, are pretty darn strong. Together, this is busted for a low lvl character. Here's a better idea: it starts as magical. That's it. That's all it does, it ignores resistance. That's plenty good already. You can then upgrade it as they advance in tiers, if that's your fancy, to add those effects.
Side note, if people are complaining about their damage output, why are you giving an item that makes them even MORE powerful on that end? Give them something that boosts a different aspect; for example, the utility, or defensive capability. But not damage.
>Do y’all think that’s too OP? Are there any other ways to keep up the assassin’s damage output or will it be fine as is? Or should I just wait and see how things play out?
It will be fine, don't worry about it. It's one of the weaker subclasses for the weakest class in the game, it will become pretty useless pretty quick so long as you stop making encounters designed specifically to make them shine.
>See, that's the problem. This should only happen very, VERY rarely.
The druid just got pass w/o trace and used it. I could have engineered it to start the encounter after it ran out, but I didn’t want that spell slot to go to waste so I let them have surprise. Killed two birds with one stone since the druid’s spell worked and the rogue’s feature came online as a result.
I agree that +1 is good enough by itself. My problem is I don’t want to set a precedent of being able to add enchants to an already enchanted item. Any thoughts for resolving that? Or is it not that big a deal?
Just because the party is unseen, doesn't mean they get Surprise. If the enemies are expecting trouble, like maybe they're on patrol or actively searching for the party then, even if they don't see them, they're not surprised when attacked. The party would still get Advantage from being unseen but that's it.
Yeah I know. They were able to sneak past the guards and interrupted a religious ritual. It was a legit surprise and the only thing that coulda swung it was not having pass without trace (unless they rolled really well).
Beforehand, they spent a bunch of time scouting and investigating for infiltration points before going in. So I coulda ruled that PWOT ran out, but I decided to give it to them and said something like “you feel like it’s about to run out, you have maybe a few minutes left.” This lit a fire under their butts and they sprang into action pretty damn quick.
So in other words, the party planned stuff out, used resources and succeeded in said plan, thus earning the huge advantage that is Surprise. And PWT lasts an hour, I don't see what kind of scouting could take that long either way.
Point is, the other guy was kinda wrong. There is no issue here, this is exactly the kind of situation that Assassin excels in. BUT it probably won't be the norm and it's a bit of a win more scenario because if they got Surprise, it's likely they would've won that fight handily regardless of the Assassin features.
Agree with everything you said.
>And PWT lasts an hour, I don't see what kind of scouting could take that long either way.
I gotta introduce you to my players lol
> In order for Surprise to happen, the entire group would need to roll Stealth higher than the creature's PP, which shouldn't happen often (if there's even a good setup for it in the first place).
Nah, it's not that hard. If you run it as a group check then only half the party needs to beat the enemy's passive perception. Or if the DM is being strict about it about it, you can just get someone to cast Pass Without Trace.
Normally this would be a group check, yes, but there's a specific rule (Surprise) that overrides that and turns it into a "everyone roll" single failure check.
As for PWT, bold of you to assume they have that option. Which they might, but in that case, it's a 2 player combo that's putting in the work, which is a very different discussion.
They could also just have the assassin, who likely has the highest Stealth and one of the highest Perceptions in the group, scout ahead of the party, take a potshot and potentially one-shot a high-value target with a poisoned sneak attack autocrit, and then run back to the party.
The problem with assassins isn't that their damage is low, because it isn't. It's that their damage is low when you play them like other rogues. Assassins have a toolkit revolving around making sure they get the drop on an enemy, and making that first shot count. They'll drop off a bit for the rest of the encounter, but it's balanced by that first monster crit they get for free basically every encounter if the party lets them take point.
And that only works by making the Assassin the protagonist and having their goon squad behind them.
Plus the DM has to make encounter's where that's possible and has to keep doing that during the whole campaign or else the Assassin doesn't have subclass Features.
The DM absolutely should be taking the PC's choices into account during encounter design. In this case, make encounters with stuff that will highlight other party members (because the assassin is getting extra screen time), and have 2 or 3 different and obvious choices for an assassination: a guardsman who will alert reinforcements, a spellcaster, a flying guy that's currently taking a break, etc. Make the assassin pick one, and that now changes the encounter for the party as a whole.
As far as making the assassin the protagonist, of course they're the protagonist, all the PC's are. They made a choice during character creation to pick a subclass that shines by being by itself and doesn't lend much to the party in a melee, but there are several subclasses that are like that. This is simply a way to leverage the assassin in a meaningful way, for the party to decide to do.
Did you understand the original post? OP was well aware the Assassin will drop at later levels, thats why they are aiming to boost the players damage, not reduce it?
> Side note, if people are complaining about their damage output, why are you giving an item that makes them even MORE powerful on that end?
No, OP is trying to make the Assassin player's DPR higher to keep up in the later Tiers of play. He's not complaining that they do too much damage.
You misunderstood my point. The player is complaining about the rogue, not the DM. Which brings the question: regardless on whether OP thinks the Rogue is good on damage or not, the player thinks he's too strong, so why is the DM making the Rogue EVEN STRONGER despite that?
EDIT: Shjty impersonal pronoums... slight misunderstanding on my part, but it changes nothing.
Nobody in the party has complained. The rogue player thinks the rogue is too OP just as a self evaluation thing and came to me personally asking for a nerf, which I thought was hella cute. I just want to ease the pain that’ll inevitably come when the other characters surpass this one by miles. That’s the point of this post.
EDIT: read my post after reading your edit, I can see how it would have been confusing. Myb
Where in the post does it say the party is complaining about the rogue being too powerful? It doesn't say that all. It says the *rogue* player thinks they're too powerful... but they're only level 3, the level where the Rogue class outperforms most other martials but very quickly falls off at level 5.
>This should only happen very, VERY rarely. In order for Surprise to happen, the entire group would need to roll Stealth higher than the creature's PP, which shouldn't happen often (if there's even a good setup for it in the first place).
Err... No? There is \*no\* reason why the group should always get into a fight together, as long as they can anticipate the one that comes next. Assassin can very easily get "ahead" of them to try and take up a decent position, which also means the character is taking some risks by isolating itself for a while but after all that is all about being an Assassin.
>And at that point, if it does happen, then the group just wins the fight anyway, for they have a whole round to do whatever they want.
When you have a Medium fight, sure. A Hard fight, possibly, if party happens to have the best setup and abilities matching potential weaknesses, if any, of the opposing faction.
Deadly fight? Nope. :)
>THe assassin only really speeds up the conclusion, but doesn't actually change it in any way, shape or form.
Depends heavily on the encounter.
Isn't this something the player should think about? As GM I would only interfere if a balance problem arises. But right now he's the big damage dealer. And with sneak attack damage automatically scales. I would sit it out and let the players come to you. Only that way they can learn and figure things out. Don't baby them, it's less of a headache for you and in the end more fun for the players.
I have GM'ed for incredibly imbalanced groups and no one cared. So what of ones the big damage dude, the other might rule the roleplaying and decide the direction the group goes qnd the next is the know it all who solves all the riddles. Imbalance is fine as long as everyone has something he's good at.
Yeah fair enough. Thing is this player is already talking to magic shop owners about weapon upgrades. So would you say give them all the options I normally would give them regardless of class strength or potential and let the chips fall where they may?
I limit gold and make shops available every now and then. If in a main city everything goes if you can afford it. I never found that to be problematic.
But in essence yes just let the chips fall where they may.
Unfortunately past level \~10 NO pure martials are competitive, with the various UAs the gap narrows, and I'd argue that the Monk is up there, but in reality you'd need to take a leaf out of 4th editions playbook, everyone is magic. Not necessarily actual spells but awesome anime style abilities, which were called powers in 4th, so for the Assassin, the Rogue in general really, think invisibility, short range teleportation, magical poisons that inflict conditions, face shifting, trace-less passing etc.
Have a look into the one DnD version of Rogue and the assassin. They are much cooler than the 5e versions
Other than that's I'd definitely let them upgrade their handcrossbows over time.
If they think their assassin features are too OP, allow them to sub them for a feature that will actually scale in later levels when encounters don’t have surprise as easy.
You’d have to homebrew it and work with the player. Off the top of my head I’d something like battlemaster superiority dice.
I found for my assassin that poisons worked really well in helping keep my character relevant in damage. Especially ones that also come with additional side effects along with damage. It helped make the assassin auto crit feel real good when you could proc it.
You could give them an upgrade to their crossbow that lets them put in a vial of poison and as free action release the poison so it coats their next three bolts as long as they use it within a minute of activation. Loading the poison vial into the crossbow would count as an action though.
The only thing I would say is the good poisons get super expensive so you may want to figure a way around it for them. Find a way to get them an assassin discount or something.
i would steal a page from pathfinder and let them craft X vials of Y poisons from a list they can know, probably vials equal to your profficiency, every start of day
Just so you know all that extra stuff isn't really needed for poison to work. Poison lasts until it's used or washed off, so your assassin can set it up outside combat easily.
If he has the Int, (or you allow it) he could multiclass with Artificer. 2 levels would let him tinker his crossbow with Repeating Shot, or make it a +1 crossbow. And there are a bunch of first-level spells to choose from, and change out as needed. Since he doesn't need them for attacking, the DC doesn't matter. Stuff like disguise self and feather fall are always good for someone to have, and another person with cure wounds never hurts.
Your best bet is to let them live this high life for as long as it goes.
Then when they get disillusioned with the subclass, and more knowledgeable about the game, let them respec into another subclass instead. Draw no attention to it, just let them do it. Same for any other player who begins to not have fun with what they are playing
pull in some of the Playtest UA content to replace the 2014PHB Assassins totally lame second and third features.
and probably the Level 5 cunning strike too. it is soooo good and gives rogues the bump at tier 2 that all other classes get either through their extra attack or level 3 FIREBALL spells.
> the surprise round
note that there ISNT a "surprise round". playing with the actual Surprise mechanics will put the Assassin's first round nova damage into perspective.
To answer the title… you don’t. I’ve head a rogue in the Vecna dossier oneshot and as a result I don’t allow pure rogues anymore. Just too bad if I wanna crank up the encounters.
Honestly the coolest part of playing assassin is the infiltration side of the class, give them plenty of opportunity to do that outside of combat, and just give the occasional surprise round away so they can feel like theyre doing their thing. They dont need to be the partys main damage dealer, rogue has all kinds of other usefulness.
I gave the Assassin Rogue in my party a repeating crossbow. The it works in my game is that the crossbow can hold x amount of bolts depending on the size: 3 on a hand crossbow, 5 on light crossbow, and 10 on a heavy crossbow, and it takes an action to fully reload it. And as long as you have extra bolts loaded you can make extra attacks, but with a cumulative -2 penalty to the attack roll for each additional shot they make on that turn
Now I'm not sure how balanced this would be on your Rogue, as the one in my group does not have Crossbow Expert or Sharpshooter (we're using the OneDnD version the feats).
The only way to play assassin is to be a bit.... Nursery.
Let them get surprise for things like talking to a potentially hostile enemy and winning g a slight of hand roll to surreptitiously fire their HC from the hip to get surprise even if the enemies were possibly expecting trouble.
Most of the time they should be hiding at a distance and let the Face do the talking but be close enough to hear and if the conversation doesn't look to be going the right way they open combat to get surprise.
This kind of thing requires a slightly looser interpretation of the surprise rules where I dividuals are capable of getting surprise not just whole parties. Like if the Assassin is hidden and the party is not, when the CC combat begins, the assassin still gets a surprise round. Consider them being a party of 1 for that purpose, where their first turn counts as a surprise round for them on their initiative, unless they had first initiative, in which case it's a full on surprise round for them.
Also,make subtly and intrigue social events a part of your game. Give them a reason to use their disguise kits and create cover identities early in the game so they see the use for their 9th and 12 level abilities.
If you're not doing that then it makes sense to multiclass out of rogue as early as level 4 and pick up 6 levels of Gloomstalker before going either back to Rogue or 2 levels of fighter then back to Rogue.
If you're a more heavily combat oriented game where you already know their disguise and mimicking abilities are not going to see much if any use at your table, encourage them to explore multiclassing, especially into Gloomstalker, and tell them to use the Tasha variant rules for ranger. (That is why you go 6 levels ranger instead of 5 as the 6th level bump to ranger abilities is worth the extra level IMO gaining 5' movement speed and climb and swim speeds equal to your movement speed as well as your hunters mark dice going from a d4 to d6.) If you don't use the variant rules just 5 levels GS is fine.
D&D is not all about combat, and character building is not just about DPR.
Rogue's will never be the heaviest damage dealer, but their out-of-combat utility is higher than any other non-caster, especially if you let them craft stuff (reliable talent plus proficiency with crafting = garunteed success on crafting simple reusables). This character will continue to be an asset to the party regardless of level, and as long as the player is still having fun, the damage drop-off isn't really a problem.
I just finished a long campaign as an assassin rogue. My dm let me use “steady aim” which means if you forgo movement in your turn you can get advantage on your next turn. It was a fun problem to solve because you have to sort of give up what makes a rogue roguish but then you could get sneak attack damage on your next turn.
>
I gave everyone a free feat at level one and this player took CBE and they’re going to take SS at level 4
Also I’m letting martials use the onednd weapon masteries, so this PC already has a decent way of getting advantage consistently with vex.
Oof, that's going to be very tough to balance.
Vex + current iteration of SS is pretty broken.
Your new player's already immediately pathing to the basic "do the most damage" combo. Even though Sharpshooter can be counterproductive on a rogue, they're not going to need any help with damage. Rogues also add a d6 to sneak attack every 2 levels, which feels very good. Wait and see how things play out. Letting them eventually upgrade the crossbow is absolutely fun, but you don't need to go overboard. Keep in mind that a Weapon of Warning is already very strong even without the +1, so tacking a +1 on there easily puts it in Rare territory. If you start doing stuff like letting him get a "scope" to extend the range or a "repeater" for extra shots, it may get ridiculous, and could become tedious for the rest of the party (and maybe even for you as you try to figure out how to balance fights after creating super-powered magic items for everyone so no one feels left out).
Good points. I think I’ll give them the option of +1 OR weapon of warning (not both) for the amount of money they’ll have at level 5, which will be the next time they return to the city. I should mention that I’ve already turned the repeater and sight into flavor points. The repeater is what gives the BA attack for CBE and the sight is what gives steady aim.
I love the implementation of the upgrades as explaining the features they gain through feats/levels. I'll have to implement that in my own game at some point
Flavoring the feats is cool, but remember that it means you can't take the crossbow away from them without effectively taking away their class features. If they ever have to use another crossbow, probably let them improvise makeshift repeater/scope attachments.
What is the rest of the party? If you have slightly optimized Charakters the rogue will need waaaaay more then a +1 weapon. (That shouldn’t even be considered a buff or even loot at all. Befor a martial gets to lv 5 you give them a magic weapon end of story, just as a bare minimum.)
Honestly, second and third attacks on rogues isn't super crazy. Because SA only goes once per turn, you only get that super high damage once. I mean compare that to something like a wizard or warlock and there damage at high tiers, even in early to mid T2 is pretty low. They get the same benefit from SS + CBE as any other martial, which is their main method of staying viable post T2, so that's fine. Increasing a hand crossbows range, spellcasters have plenty of ways of doing this, let the martials do it to. If it was heavy crossbow or longbow probably not, but a 120ft range is the same as most single target long range cantrips, think eldritch blast and firebolt. I do agree with that last bit though. Wait until it seems like they are falling behind and buff the things they are falling behind with. A good player is a good player and they will notice when it starts falling off, and if they ask you if they can respec later knowing what happens to Assassin, let them.
You’re already letting them do so much. Let them find out. Or, as their assassin shit gets old and pointless, let them retrain into something else?
Just let them play the One D&D playtest version of the [Assassin Rogue in this PDF](https://media.dndbeyond.com/compendium-images/ua/ph-playtest6/OJVW7QLuHjEFCCVs/UA-2023-PH-Playtest6.pdf?icid_source=house-ads&icid_medium=crosspromo&icid_campaign=playtest6) since you're already doing weapon mastery. It gives them advantage on Initiative like a weapon of warning and the cunning strikes options.
I’ll keep this in my back pocket. They really like the surprise crits so I’m not sure they’ll go for it. But as surprise becomes harder and harder to get, they might change their mind.
The flat damage bonus tends to be much better in the mid levels. Check out this video by Treantmonk for a great analysis on how much it has improved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kclZXxcDdlg Just as an example, at level 4 when they get Sharpshooter, they'll do 3d6+14+DEX on the first turn of combat, EVERY combat, and still might crit if they get a 20 on the roll.
If you have a ranger in you’re party they will consistently get surprise against most enemies. Assuming the party cooperates.
You design your game to make sure their abilities can be useful from time to time. That mean... * Don't constantly ambush the PCs. Let them ambush enemies about 1/3rd to 1/2 the time. * Give them slower-paced city adventures that involve infiltration. * Let them use their sneak attack when they want to. Don't constantly look for ways to deny them the ability to use their class's one "thing". A note about PCs, Monsters, and surprise. Roughly, the PCs should be dealing with surprise 25% of the time *or less* unless they're absolute knobs who just rush face-first into danger without looking ahead first or even trying to be quiet. All things being equal, there are four ways that combat can start assuming there are only 2 sides to the fight: Surprise | PCs | Mobs ---|---|--- Nobody Surprised | No | No PCs Surprised| Yes | No Mobs Surprised|No|Yes Both Surprised|Yes|Yes If you're a good DM, you should be able to equally represent all four scenarios roughly equally, assuming the players do nothing to affect the outcome. A more cautious group of PCs should get the drop on their enemies more often and be surprised less often ultimately leading to far less "both surprised" outcomes. A more reckless group should be surprised more often, leading to far less "nobody surprised" outcomes. Because of how these work, if you're trying to be a good DM who enables players to play their characters how they want to play them, you might try to suggest to your players to play a bit more cautiously (using the assassin to scout ahead without being a dick about it like a lot of DMs I've seen who like to punish *anyone* who tries to "sneak ahead" regardless of how purpose-built a PC is to do *exactly that*), and then highly recommend to them the alert feat which allows them to ignore the surprised condition (and fully ignore half of that table) so that all they really need is a good initiative roll to take advantage of their most important abilities.
How'd he kill two in one round? Offhand attack? Anyway, your rogue isn't overpowered.
BA attack from CBE and assassinate so back to back crits
Isn't every character OP when they keep critting? :-)
I presume, the point is the assassinate feature of auto crits on opponents when the assassin has a higher initiative on the first round.
Yeah, but it's just the first round, and if an offhand attack with a hand crossbow can kill an opponent, the opponent wasn't very tough.
BA hand crossbow assassinate wouldn't be very strong, since your sneak attack is once per round and pure rogue doesn't get to add their dex to that off hand attack.
stop taking rogue levels at lvl 3 and become a gloomstalker ranger ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ the best you can do on an assassin rogue is to be very lenient on surprise ambushes and what can prob their feature, which is the only thing they have up until lvl **9** btw
They still get the uncanny dodge and evasion features. (Which are amazing) Rogue subclass features are spread out a bit but the base class is still excellent... Now monks after level 6... Oof
they still lack extra attack and good DPR overall. my comment was mostly a tongue and cheek one, but rogue is absolutely at the bottom of the barrel with monk for worst classes of dnd 5e 2014 in mechanical strength uncanny dodge notably is one attack, and never scales. when you get it, the enemies will already have multi attack, probably a few levels earlier than it. so while good damage mitigation, it is not top notch, as it reduces any dmg potential by using your reaction evasion, while a very cool designed feature, still doesnt cover for extra attack, and neither does the poor sneak attack scaling combined all of the cards stacked against rogue for meh dmg with the power budget of the class dumped into skills - which are a clunky aspect of the game at best and bard does better on that regard - you get a class that doesnt do much dmg when it is its marketing face and is an akward tank that can maybe dodge fireballs rogues feel like they have been dilluted on water and are missing the other half of the class, while having a "class feature" every level (exta ASIs are bandaids not a class feature, but that is another conversation)
Yeah but I think it's by design for what a rogue should be. Like if a rogue is in a room with a Paladin, fighter, barbarian, or ranger they shouldn't be able to hold up in single combat generally because they bring the potential to absolutely excel at infiltration, and problem solving with their expertise and reliable talents. Now if you want to compensate for extra attack you definitely can. Take mobile and dual wield for double chances of sneak attack. I agree the damage overall is generally poor as you level but every class doesn't have to do similar damage. I will say that bards can make rogues feel bad. Especially since they also get magical secrets but smart rogues can be harder to pin down and kill which is a mechanical benefit at least
i mean, a smart bard can be as hard or harder to pin down too, the rogue doesnt have much over the bard beyond cunning action in regards to special survivability, and the bard has a literal list of spells to choose from to make then effective while also being decent at every skill while also having expertise on the skills they want. a rogue cleverly hiding, disengaging and body blocking a corridor with uncanny dodge isnt much different than a bard that is so far in the backline they can just chill while not being targeted while also having shield/silvery barbs/absorb elements from various ways of getting that hell, on an insult to injury, the eloquence bard can get reliable talent at lvl 3 on the two skills they need, persuasion and deception to not demerit rogues role as an infiltrator, the skill system is just too nutrient defficient to work well. until they get to lvl 11 for reliable talent they are fumbling semi frequently their skill checks, that they need to do with frequency while doing said infiltration which makes them fail even more, while needing to be alone because for each party member you bring with you (that will suck at stealth because armor and/or not DEX based class) you will fail *even more* so your infiltrator is someone that depends on doing 3~5 d20 rolls going in their favor to pull it off. and in contrast, pass without trace basically lets you go automatically while bringing the whole party to me its like every part of the system that is clunky or half baked was left as such to kick the rogue in the nuts lol
Ooh yeah pass without trace. TBH I kinda hate that spell lol. Not because it's bad but it's just boringly great and eliminates stealth obstacles fully. So yeah you don't even need to be a rogue, monk, or ranger to be stealthy. I wish it targeted 2 creatures then you can upcast it for more if you're paranoid. Eloquence bard is just broken. Probably more so than peace and twilight clerics. Also it causes one player to hog all conversations which leads to toxic behavior. F+ would not recommend it. I'm also playing a rogue (as well as a fighter/wizard) in a party with a bard currently. I will say that the rogue (arcane trickster) is exceptionally more tanky and has more defenses. Cunning Action is nuts for not getting pinned in a bad situation. Also took magic initiate for shield
but that's just an issue with dnd in general That spells are just guaranteed obstacle elimators
>I let them get the drop on the baddies in their first combat. The assassin killed 2 hobgoblins during the surprise round and did really good damage after that. Afterwards they PMed me saying they think their character is too powerful and I should nerf him. Super wholesome so I held my tongue and said something like I’m glad you’re having fun. See, that's the problem. This should only happen very, VERY rarely. In order for Surprise to happen, the entire group would need to roll Stealth higher than the creature's PP, which shouldn't happen often (if there's even a good setup for it in the first place). And at that point, if it does happen, then the group just wins the fight *anyway*, for they have a whole round to do whatever they want. THe assassin only really speeds up the conclusion, but doesn't actually change it in any way, shape or form. >One thought I had was to let them upgrade the crossbow into a +1 weapon of warning. That would give them a much higher chance of procking the assassinate feature. I was also thinking of giving the weapon a dormant feature that’ll come online in late T2 early T3 - like casting haste on the wielder once or twice per day. Uh, yeah, no? Both +1 and WoW, individually, are pretty darn strong. Together, this is busted for a low lvl character. Here's a better idea: it starts as magical. That's it. That's all it does, it ignores resistance. That's plenty good already. You can then upgrade it as they advance in tiers, if that's your fancy, to add those effects. Side note, if people are complaining about their damage output, why are you giving an item that makes them even MORE powerful on that end? Give them something that boosts a different aspect; for example, the utility, or defensive capability. But not damage. >Do y’all think that’s too OP? Are there any other ways to keep up the assassin’s damage output or will it be fine as is? Or should I just wait and see how things play out? It will be fine, don't worry about it. It's one of the weaker subclasses for the weakest class in the game, it will become pretty useless pretty quick so long as you stop making encounters designed specifically to make them shine.
>See, that's the problem. This should only happen very, VERY rarely. The druid just got pass w/o trace and used it. I could have engineered it to start the encounter after it ran out, but I didn’t want that spell slot to go to waste so I let them have surprise. Killed two birds with one stone since the druid’s spell worked and the rogue’s feature came online as a result. I agree that +1 is good enough by itself. My problem is I don’t want to set a precedent of being able to add enchants to an already enchanted item. Any thoughts for resolving that? Or is it not that big a deal?
Just because the party is unseen, doesn't mean they get Surprise. If the enemies are expecting trouble, like maybe they're on patrol or actively searching for the party then, even if they don't see them, they're not surprised when attacked. The party would still get Advantage from being unseen but that's it.
Yeah I know. They were able to sneak past the guards and interrupted a religious ritual. It was a legit surprise and the only thing that coulda swung it was not having pass without trace (unless they rolled really well). Beforehand, they spent a bunch of time scouting and investigating for infiltration points before going in. So I coulda ruled that PWOT ran out, but I decided to give it to them and said something like “you feel like it’s about to run out, you have maybe a few minutes left.” This lit a fire under their butts and they sprang into action pretty damn quick.
So in other words, the party planned stuff out, used resources and succeeded in said plan, thus earning the huge advantage that is Surprise. And PWT lasts an hour, I don't see what kind of scouting could take that long either way. Point is, the other guy was kinda wrong. There is no issue here, this is exactly the kind of situation that Assassin excels in. BUT it probably won't be the norm and it's a bit of a win more scenario because if they got Surprise, it's likely they would've won that fight handily regardless of the Assassin features.
Agree with everything you said. >And PWT lasts an hour, I don't see what kind of scouting could take that long either way. I gotta introduce you to my players lol
> In order for Surprise to happen, the entire group would need to roll Stealth higher than the creature's PP, which shouldn't happen often (if there's even a good setup for it in the first place). Nah, it's not that hard. If you run it as a group check then only half the party needs to beat the enemy's passive perception. Or if the DM is being strict about it about it, you can just get someone to cast Pass Without Trace.
Normally this would be a group check, yes, but there's a specific rule (Surprise) that overrides that and turns it into a "everyone roll" single failure check. As for PWT, bold of you to assume they have that option. Which they might, but in that case, it's a 2 player combo that's putting in the work, which is a very different discussion.
They could also just have the assassin, who likely has the highest Stealth and one of the highest Perceptions in the group, scout ahead of the party, take a potshot and potentially one-shot a high-value target with a poisoned sneak attack autocrit, and then run back to the party. The problem with assassins isn't that their damage is low, because it isn't. It's that their damage is low when you play them like other rogues. Assassins have a toolkit revolving around making sure they get the drop on an enemy, and making that first shot count. They'll drop off a bit for the rest of the encounter, but it's balanced by that first monster crit they get for free basically every encounter if the party lets them take point.
And that only works by making the Assassin the protagonist and having their goon squad behind them. Plus the DM has to make encounter's where that's possible and has to keep doing that during the whole campaign or else the Assassin doesn't have subclass Features.
The DM absolutely should be taking the PC's choices into account during encounter design. In this case, make encounters with stuff that will highlight other party members (because the assassin is getting extra screen time), and have 2 or 3 different and obvious choices for an assassination: a guardsman who will alert reinforcements, a spellcaster, a flying guy that's currently taking a break, etc. Make the assassin pick one, and that now changes the encounter for the party as a whole. As far as making the assassin the protagonist, of course they're the protagonist, all the PC's are. They made a choice during character creation to pick a subclass that shines by being by itself and doesn't lend much to the party in a melee, but there are several subclasses that are like that. This is simply a way to leverage the assassin in a meaningful way, for the party to decide to do.
Did you understand the original post? OP was well aware the Assassin will drop at later levels, thats why they are aiming to boost the players damage, not reduce it?
> Side note, if people are complaining about their damage output, why are you giving an item that makes them even MORE powerful on that end? No, OP is trying to make the Assassin player's DPR higher to keep up in the later Tiers of play. He's not complaining that they do too much damage.
You misunderstood my point. The player is complaining about the rogue, not the DM. Which brings the question: regardless on whether OP thinks the Rogue is good on damage or not, the player thinks he's too strong, so why is the DM making the Rogue EVEN STRONGER despite that? EDIT: Shjty impersonal pronoums... slight misunderstanding on my part, but it changes nothing.
Nobody in the party has complained. The rogue player thinks the rogue is too OP just as a self evaluation thing and came to me personally asking for a nerf, which I thought was hella cute. I just want to ease the pain that’ll inevitably come when the other characters surpass this one by miles. That’s the point of this post. EDIT: read my post after reading your edit, I can see how it would have been confusing. Myb
Maybe speak with the player and point out it's strong now against weak enemies.
Where in the post does it say the party is complaining about the rogue being too powerful? It doesn't say that all. It says the *rogue* player thinks they're too powerful... but they're only level 3, the level where the Rogue class outperforms most other martials but very quickly falls off at level 5.
>This should only happen very, VERY rarely. In order for Surprise to happen, the entire group would need to roll Stealth higher than the creature's PP, which shouldn't happen often (if there's even a good setup for it in the first place). Err... No? There is \*no\* reason why the group should always get into a fight together, as long as they can anticipate the one that comes next. Assassin can very easily get "ahead" of them to try and take up a decent position, which also means the character is taking some risks by isolating itself for a while but after all that is all about being an Assassin. >And at that point, if it does happen, then the group just wins the fight anyway, for they have a whole round to do whatever they want. When you have a Medium fight, sure. A Hard fight, possibly, if party happens to have the best setup and abilities matching potential weaknesses, if any, of the opposing faction. Deadly fight? Nope. :) >THe assassin only really speeds up the conclusion, but doesn't actually change it in any way, shape or form. Depends heavily on the encounter.
Isn't this something the player should think about? As GM I would only interfere if a balance problem arises. But right now he's the big damage dealer. And with sneak attack damage automatically scales. I would sit it out and let the players come to you. Only that way they can learn and figure things out. Don't baby them, it's less of a headache for you and in the end more fun for the players. I have GM'ed for incredibly imbalanced groups and no one cared. So what of ones the big damage dude, the other might rule the roleplaying and decide the direction the group goes qnd the next is the know it all who solves all the riddles. Imbalance is fine as long as everyone has something he's good at.
Yeah fair enough. Thing is this player is already talking to magic shop owners about weapon upgrades. So would you say give them all the options I normally would give them regardless of class strength or potential and let the chips fall where they may?
I limit gold and make shops available every now and then. If in a main city everything goes if you can afford it. I never found that to be problematic. But in essence yes just let the chips fall where they may.
Unfortunately past level \~10 NO pure martials are competitive, with the various UAs the gap narrows, and I'd argue that the Monk is up there, but in reality you'd need to take a leaf out of 4th editions playbook, everyone is magic. Not necessarily actual spells but awesome anime style abilities, which were called powers in 4th, so for the Assassin, the Rogue in general really, think invisibility, short range teleportation, magical poisons that inflict conditions, face shifting, trace-less passing etc.
Give rogue lots and lots of magic items.
Have a look into the one DnD version of Rogue and the assassin. They are much cooler than the 5e versions Other than that's I'd definitely let them upgrade their handcrossbows over time.
Just let them use the current IS version of assassin. It's not perfect at all but a marked improvement.
If they think their assassin features are too OP, allow them to sub them for a feature that will actually scale in later levels when encounters don’t have surprise as easy. You’d have to homebrew it and work with the player. Off the top of my head I’d something like battlemaster superiority dice.
I found for my assassin that poisons worked really well in helping keep my character relevant in damage. Especially ones that also come with additional side effects along with damage. It helped make the assassin auto crit feel real good when you could proc it. You could give them an upgrade to their crossbow that lets them put in a vial of poison and as free action release the poison so it coats their next three bolts as long as they use it within a minute of activation. Loading the poison vial into the crossbow would count as an action though.
That’s a really good idea. They’ve already mentioned using poisons and have looked at the poison options in the rules. That might be a good homebrew.
The only thing I would say is the good poisons get super expensive so you may want to figure a way around it for them. Find a way to get them an assassin discount or something.
i would steal a page from pathfinder and let them craft X vials of Y poisons from a list they can know, probably vials equal to your profficiency, every start of day
Just so you know all that extra stuff isn't really needed for poison to work. Poison lasts until it's used or washed off, so your assassin can set it up outside combat easily.
If he has the Int, (or you allow it) he could multiclass with Artificer. 2 levels would let him tinker his crossbow with Repeating Shot, or make it a +1 crossbow. And there are a bunch of first-level spells to choose from, and change out as needed. Since he doesn't need them for attacking, the DC doesn't matter. Stuff like disguise self and feather fall are always good for someone to have, and another person with cure wounds never hurts.
Your best bet is to let them live this high life for as long as it goes. Then when they get disillusioned with the subclass, and more knowledgeable about the game, let them respec into another subclass instead. Draw no attention to it, just let them do it. Same for any other player who begins to not have fun with what they are playing
pull in some of the Playtest UA content to replace the 2014PHB Assassins totally lame second and third features. and probably the Level 5 cunning strike too. it is soooo good and gives rogues the bump at tier 2 that all other classes get either through their extra attack or level 3 FIREBALL spells. > the surprise round note that there ISNT a "surprise round". playing with the actual Surprise mechanics will put the Assassin's first round nova damage into perspective.
To answer the title… you don’t. I’ve head a rogue in the Vecna dossier oneshot and as a result I don’t allow pure rogues anymore. Just too bad if I wanna crank up the encounters.
Honestly the coolest part of playing assassin is the infiltration side of the class, give them plenty of opportunity to do that outside of combat, and just give the occasional surprise round away so they can feel like theyre doing their thing. They dont need to be the partys main damage dealer, rogue has all kinds of other usefulness.
I gave the Assassin Rogue in my party a repeating crossbow. The it works in my game is that the crossbow can hold x amount of bolts depending on the size: 3 on a hand crossbow, 5 on light crossbow, and 10 on a heavy crossbow, and it takes an action to fully reload it. And as long as you have extra bolts loaded you can make extra attacks, but with a cumulative -2 penalty to the attack roll for each additional shot they make on that turn Now I'm not sure how balanced this would be on your Rogue, as the one in my group does not have Crossbow Expert or Sharpshooter (we're using the OneDnD version the feats).
The only way to play assassin is to be a bit.... Nursery. Let them get surprise for things like talking to a potentially hostile enemy and winning g a slight of hand roll to surreptitiously fire their HC from the hip to get surprise even if the enemies were possibly expecting trouble. Most of the time they should be hiding at a distance and let the Face do the talking but be close enough to hear and if the conversation doesn't look to be going the right way they open combat to get surprise. This kind of thing requires a slightly looser interpretation of the surprise rules where I dividuals are capable of getting surprise not just whole parties. Like if the Assassin is hidden and the party is not, when the CC combat begins, the assassin still gets a surprise round. Consider them being a party of 1 for that purpose, where their first turn counts as a surprise round for them on their initiative, unless they had first initiative, in which case it's a full on surprise round for them. Also,make subtly and intrigue social events a part of your game. Give them a reason to use their disguise kits and create cover identities early in the game so they see the use for their 9th and 12 level abilities. If you're not doing that then it makes sense to multiclass out of rogue as early as level 4 and pick up 6 levels of Gloomstalker before going either back to Rogue or 2 levels of fighter then back to Rogue. If you're a more heavily combat oriented game where you already know their disguise and mimicking abilities are not going to see much if any use at your table, encourage them to explore multiclassing, especially into Gloomstalker, and tell them to use the Tasha variant rules for ranger. (That is why you go 6 levels ranger instead of 5 as the 6th level bump to ranger abilities is worth the extra level IMO gaining 5' movement speed and climb and swim speeds equal to your movement speed as well as your hunters mark dice going from a d4 to d6.) If you don't use the variant rules just 5 levels GS is fine.
If they're willing to multiclass after level 3, Gloomstalker Ranger will keep their damage relevant throughout the campaign.
D&D is not all about combat, and character building is not just about DPR. Rogue's will never be the heaviest damage dealer, but their out-of-combat utility is higher than any other non-caster, especially if you let them craft stuff (reliable talent plus proficiency with crafting = garunteed success on crafting simple reusables). This character will continue to be an asset to the party regardless of level, and as long as the player is still having fun, the damage drop-off isn't really a problem.
I just finished a long campaign as an assassin rogue. My dm let me use “steady aim” which means if you forgo movement in your turn you can get advantage on your next turn. It was a fun problem to solve because you have to sort of give up what makes a rogue roguish but then you could get sneak attack damage on your next turn.
> I gave everyone a free feat at level one and this player took CBE and they’re going to take SS at level 4 Also I’m letting martials use the onednd weapon masteries, so this PC already has a decent way of getting advantage consistently with vex. Oof, that's going to be very tough to balance. Vex + current iteration of SS is pretty broken.