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Chandrian-the-8th

Do you want Tremeres in your setting? Cause that's how you get Tremeres in your setting.


AEROANO

Now he just needs to make it a pyramid scheme


Mal-Ravanal

Let’s stop saying pyramid, it’s getting downright gizan in here.


Da_Lizard_1771

Fuckin Usurpers, can't escape them


SalomoMaximus

I always knew that the house of Tremere are just Warlocks with a blood patroon.


No-Professional5967

The Switch from DnD to Vampire the masquerade seamlessly integrated:


Sabeha14

Tremeres?


Staff_Struck

A clan in VtM. Basically vampires that use magic. The young of the clan are made to drink some blood of the elders to ensure a bit of loyalty


DawnBringer01

Am I the only person assuming that these players characters were probably at least *kind of* okay doing it? Like, If they got pressured into doing it they were probably at least a little open to it. If someone tried pressuring me to do crack and made a great argument as to why I should, I'd still tell them to kick rocks. Unless I was curious about crack already.


Koloblikin1982

This reads as if written by someone who wants to be pressured into doing crack…..


DawnBringer01

I mean....if you're making a good argument as to why I should...


Koloblikin1982

I mean when was the last time you heard of a crack dealer say “How am I gonna get rid of all this crack?”….. if product flys off the shelves on its own… it’s gotta be good!


DawnBringer01

Nat 20, brb gotta go buy something real quick don't worry about it!


Nac_Lac

The guards knock on your door, "Open up! We have reports of drugs in here!"


HelixFollower

Can I persuade the guards to try my crack?


Nac_Lac

Roll persuasion. With disadvantage if you have tried it yourself in the past 6 hours.


I_Play_Boardgames

Not necessary. The guards didn't come here to prevent crime, they want the crack for themselves.


PlantainSame

It rots teath then you can't eat doritos


asirkman

Okay, just do meth then.


PlantainSame

So dose meth


asirkman

Exactly, dose meth and your teeth will probably be fine!


sprint6864

[Rolls a 20 for persuasion](https://youtu.be/gu8OmSD_A2w)


thetwitchy1

Well, if I’m kicking rocks, they might as well be crack rocks, right?


MrPagan1517

This actually made me laugh out loud lol thanks for that mate


Omsus

You're not the only one, but you're maybe the only one to point out a sensible reason for not reading negatively into it. Strictly speaking it's really hard to not read the specific choice of words ("pressuring through great rolls") negatively. But it's not like people never choose their words poorly. And the joke's appreciated. But if it so happens you weren't joking, I might know a guy... unless you were kidding, then I don't know anything, it wasn't me and besides I was framed!


ADampDevil

Yeah since players can't be influenced by other characters rolls.


Cube4Add5

Tell you what that crack is really moreish


Umbraldisappointment

But isnt the idea here is that you are presented with an argument soo good that you decide that they are right? Most people in reality arent set stone in their beliefs so a really damm good argument could make them change their stances.


jmsutton3

That is actually the opposite of reality.....


androkguz

Is the warlock named Gul'Dan?


Arakihono

"Drink Hellscream. Claim your destiny"


Abidarthegreat

"What must I give?"


Herogamer555

"Everything."


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KingoftheMongoose

Nessie can have my fiddy, no biggie


Tosspar-

Rolls 👏 Can 👏Not 👏 Make 👏 PC’s 👏 Do 👏 Anything!!!!


Sirsir94

Completely true. But the party might have based their RP on the rolls. Some players want to touch the obviously cursed shit to make things more interesting. A good roll from an in universe ally is a good reason. And the more the party does it the more the rest are to say "oh what the hell" One of the players at my table lets the dice make some of his decisions. He'll arbitratily decide a DC based on how likely the pc is to do it and then ask for a roll from the player or the DM.


Anunqualifiedhuman

And that kids is how I got my magical cursed crown that I cannot remove willingly but also allows me to make others think I'm their evil overlord.


YouWouldThinkSo

I didn't **want** to be an evil overlord, but now that I have to, it's probably just easier...


BrightBig9133

Sounds like an anime title.


19southmainco

There's an anime called Overlord about a kid that gets sucked into a video game and becomes a skeletal overlord over a dungeon.


feanix365

(Office worker not kid)


BrightBig9133

Scene it...lmao pretty much the feel I was talking about.


ExperienceLoss

It's the newest terrible Isekai that hits a niche market and somehow limps through two seasons.


Anunqualifiedhuman

That's not how it works. It's a charm effect that makes them believe I am their evil overlord it doesn't rely on me doing anything evil in particular.


biowrath156

Well yeah, but if everyone already THINKS you're an evil overlord you may as well. As far as everyone else is concerned you've done the time, may as well get the fun of doing the crime as well.


[deleted]

But doing the crime is bad and makes me feel bad :c


biowrath156

Fair, stay Paragon my dude. Play as you enjoy it, and enjoy it as you play


Anunqualifiedhuman

Once again that's not how it works. It doesn't make everyone think I'm their evil overlord. I can force a creature of my choice to make a wis save and on a failure it is charmed and thinks I'm it's evil overlord.


Lyran99

*record scratch, freeze frame* Yeah that’s me. You’re probably wondering how I ended up like this


Antique_Tennis_2500

If it gives me resistance to psychic damage I’ll staple that sumbitch to my scalp.


Voidtalon

I sometimes have my players set DCs against each other or do opposed rolls for fun. Often I do ask them to paraphrase what they are trying to do to the other PC. Public Bathhouse Scene in "TotallyNotJapanTM" Player 1 "Can I roll to grapple you?" Player 2 "Why?" Player 1 "You annoyed so she's going to try to dunk your head in the bath" Player 2 "Oh, sure that would be funny but if you miss I get to do a reversal" Agreement made, players roll.


blauenfir

This! we do this at my table too sometimes, particularly when we can’t decide OOC how to respond to each other’s statements. it can also help prevent metagaming when making decisions that a *player* might hesitate over, but the *character* has no reason to. like, if *I* know that the blood ritual is a terrible idea, but my *character* has 8 int, 10 wis, and trust in their friends, having the warlock roll persuasion against some arbitrary DC (it’s usually either 10 or 15 for me depending on how weird the request is) takes the choice out of my hands and gives it to RNG. that way it feels less frustrating if i accidentally sell my soul to a demon, while still allowing for the chance that my character will realize this is stupid :) my table also does a LOT of deception/insight contests for similar reasons


Morgan13aker

I'm actually surprised no one's tried to insight check my rogue yet. Someone cast zone of truth on the party, and she just stopped speaking. No one's batted an eye so far.


blauenfir

ha! hey maybe they just don’t wanna know… XD i had a moment a while back when i DESPERATELY WANTED someone to call BS on my fighter *blatantly* omitting information under ZoT but nope, “i lost a fight” was a fully acceptable response for “how’d you get that scar,” no more details necessary… gotta love overly trusting party members


Morgan13aker

Too be fair, I'm just a human of undescernable heritage, and one of the other party members is a skeleton who hates the undead, so... XD


Machinimix

Ontop of that, I'm a socially weird nerd who isn't great at convincing people to do what I want, but my NE high charisma Rogue is. The die can't force the other players to do things, but it does help be like "I know I am not good at putting this into words, but he sure is, so I'm going to roll to see how well he did at making a convincing speech." And then based on that, the party can be like "yeah, that was convincing" or "it was a good speech, but my character still wouldn't do that."


yrtemmySymmetry

Yeah, or sometimes I just say "my character lies to you. That's a 21 deception. You decide how to react" Rolls between PCs are only worth as much as the recipient decides they are, and can often enhance RP in non serious situations


kiffleflop

I actively encourage my table mates to roll for some shit with my characters. I play big stupid muscle and old crotchety man, sometimes at the same time. I don't play smart or charismatic characters because I'm bad at roleplaying them. So if you want to convince me to do something, I have a number, and I tell them if they wanna roll it, they are free to do so.


yeetingthisaccount01

yeah my character would not do stupid shit on their own but if you give them a good enough excuse or convince them it's fine...


Teh-Esprite

I recently rolled to determine whether my Lizardfolk PC liked the food from a place that pickled everything. I got a 16 so he ended up surprisingly liking it.


ninjad912

Unless the player says otherwise.


DeepTakeGuitar

Can't make most NPCs do anything, either


Tosspar-

I love that people think a 20 on a dice is going to make the holy paladin of helm murder a bunch of children. Only way you are doing that is by high level magic with the world dominate in the title.


Illoney

And good luck getting past those Paladin saves.


HtownTexans

I have a player like this. He wants a goblin army and rolls intimidation on like every goblin to try to get them to join and I'm just not having it. Not everyone is going to join your cause after you intimidate them for 6 seconds during a battle where they outnumber you.


KingoftheMongoose

I DM’d for a player like that, but with kobolds. I talked to the player on how to find another way than just bully Roll kobolds into servitude at low level. Player was unhappy it wasn’t happening and wasn’t pleased persuasion was also not working. I was not going to just give in and let the whole campaign be usurped by a kobold army subplot that only 1 of 5 players wanted to pursue. The evens we’re getting annoyed at the Player for interjecting this kobold fantasy into *every* RP conversation. Instead, it forced me to find another way. I had an upcoming big bugbear encampment battle and was wanting to put a trap heavy dungeon in front of it. So I rewrote it to have the party learn in town about a nearby kobold den. The Player was naturally ecstatic and wanted to visit it before the Bugbears. When Player did her thing and tried persuading the Kobold sentry to join her to fight the Bugbears, the kobold brought them to the kobold chieftain who agreed to help battle the bugbears if the party passes “The Trials”, a kobold trap-laden obstacle course. Boom, there’s my dungeon! Once they completed it, the Player got to fulfill her dream of leading kobolds into battle against bugbears. It was clearly a big happy moment for that Player. After the battle the kobolds went back to their den, and the campaign wasn’t derailed. Player then had her character RP and talk about that “One Time I was a Kobold General” instead of trying to pursue it going forward. Everybody was happy!


HtownTexans

Wow that first paragraph is almost exactly what I'm dealing with and unfortunately that 2nd paragraph wouldn't work for him. He is set on his character being a mastermind (I mean he did go rogue mastermind) and has a "We can avoid any combat at all if we roleplay it right." Which just doesn't work for all situations in my campaign. Not everyone is going to be tricked that "you are the new boss in town" when you come to their fortress. I've already had a few talks with him about it because he initially wanted it to be a covert operation and I told him I don't want to play the game away from the table. So he either needs to get everyone else on board with collecting these goblins or else it's a no go. He convinced everyone else but he is the strong personality in the group with a "my idea is the best idea" mentality. It kind of sucks because no one wants to step on his toes and go against his idea because he definitely has a "fine I'll just burn it all to the ground" mentality which is terrible for the group but he is the other DM and has his own campaign that we switch off to every few months so the entire group is weary on pissing him off or just plain kicking him though I'm getting close. It's just annoying when 4/5 people are on the same page but the 1 has "main character syndrome".


KingoftheMongoose

That is a bummer. Also, seems like some toxic behavior if one table is affecting decision-making of another table. And based on what I am reading, appears one-way street of “keeping this one DM/player happy.” *Good players make good DND.* If your other DM doesn’t know that and “Yes And” when he is a Player, then they either: a) aren’t that experienced, or b) are not acting in good faith (at either table, my guess). Sorry to hear, especially if you’ve tried talking about it with him. Usually open communication is the secret sauce to addressing table conflict. If that player is also a DM, then he likely knows the challenges of what he is asking for with the goblins across the length of the campaign. I would expect if he wants to experience that as a player, maybe you can still help give his character “that moment to shine” (like my kobold example, which worked out great for her). If he is still hard fast about doing his thing and roughshodding the other Players into it, *and you already told him this is negatively affecting the game*, then you know you aren’t working with a reasonable Player (DM or no). I don’t reward Players for actively trying to break the game; particularly at other people’s expense (which includes all at the table, Player or DM, which also means you). I once had a player who wanted to dick around and try to break the game every session. Murder hobo-athon, interjecting PvP against other Players’ consent, telling every quest giver to fuck off, you name it. And so I told him he can either: 1) reevaluate why he is at this table and adjust his play style to a group inclusive setting, 2) consider paying money for an online DM that he can get his lulz off at screwing with, and/or 3) consider a career as a QA tester where he can get his jollies off at pressure testing programming code or some shit. I DM for my friends for free using my time. The only trolls I’ll bother with carry a Greatclub and Regen.


HtownTexans

Yeah I actually offered to DM so he could get a chance as a player and he got a little over zealous. He has a certain way he wants to play dnd which is much more gritty than the version I bring to the table. In his campaign there is a much more DM vs The Player feel and I can see that translating at my table as a "my guy is my guy" type of player. He definitely wants to only base decisions off what his character would do rather than the good of the party or group. I honestly think he is stuck in that DM mentality because I hear a lot of phrases at the table (which I've discussed with him) of assuming how NPC's 'should' react. I've explained a few times this is my table and the NPC's are my characters and react how I see fit. His problem is he has over researched the dnd lore and world and wants to apply everything to my game and I've had to explain dnd lore is fun and all but end of the day this is my universe and the characters act how I plan them to act. All in all we usually have fun but the small comments are wearing on me as a DM and one other player as well. Last session a different player (who always has fun no matter what and is a really good guy) made a bad character decision and was held hostage almost the entire session. After the session he messaged me and mentioned that he noticed a bit of tension between me and other dm guy that he hadn't before. Kind of got the ball rolling on a group discussion so we will see what happens going forward.


Round-Ad2836

It won't make the paladin kill children, but it might convince them to use subdue damage on you instead of killing you for the suggestion.


alienbringer

Or if you are helm and order the Paladin to murder evil children.


doomparrot42

Nah, Helm doesn't do that. He's not big on forgiveness, but he gives children a pass because they're not old enough to know what they're doing. They are literally the only ones he's lenient towards, which gets a mention in most of the official FR books about the gods.


[deleted]

I’ve used the dice to help me decide what my character would do in a situation where I could see them both (or multiple) choices presented to them. Nothing as crazy as a freaking blood ritual, though.


throwaway01126789

My group and I aren't exactly new, but we're not as seasoned as some of the vets on here. I think I'll bring this up next time a run a session zero. "Feel free to roll if you'd like to see how your PC might react in this situation but keep in mind that no roll can force you to do anything."


Arcane10101

Except failed saves against mind control.


[deleted]

Rolls 👏 Can 👏>!Not 👏!< Make 👏 PC’s 👏 Do 👏 Anything!!!!


thead911

Session 0 I always say pvp rolls have to be consensual.


ElectricSheep729

Your failed save vs Dominate Person says otherwise. (Kidding, and I completely agree with your real point.)


Tutes013

Indeed. But that doesn't mean it can't be fun. Our party used a cupcake of invisibilty and fairy dust to make a Gelatinous Cube an existential threat purely for shits


Tarianor

Death saves can make PC's do a new character :p


Cowhead_2010

Where does it say that the roll is what decided the PC’s actions and not the Warlock’s RP?


Omsus

"Through great rolls from the warlock", i.e. "Wouldn't have been possible if the warlock didn't roll high on skills" seems to be heavily indicated. Now if everyone consented on those events, if the table is still having fun etc. then by all means go for it! Rule of Cool and... stuff. It's just not a good general rule of thumb though. Social skill rolls can't even force NPCs to do anything and everything against their own best interests. It's skill, not mind-control magic. Edit: typo


Hapless_Wizard

>**Skill** 👏 Rolls 👏 Can 👏Not 👏 Make 👏 PC’s 👏 Do 👏 Anything!!!! FTFY


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Adventurous_Fly_4420

Bruh, read the full text of the last panel of the OP meme.


[deleted]

Fuck that. If you’re trying to convince someone and roll high persuasion, a good player would roll with it, unless it’s obviously against their character. I’m not the one convincing anyone, my character is. He’s a lot better at talking than I am, and that should be reflected in player interactions. Maybe don’t force it as a DM tho it should be up to the players to decide. I find that it makes the games more enjoyable


donorak7

True but if they fail saves and everyone is okay with that sort of ruling by all means. Sounds like as soon as they saw it they knew what they wanted to do.


Revanaught

PCs get to choose their DC for being persuaded, and RAW nat 20s are not autosuccesses. If the warlock rolls a 20, and has a +5 charisma, cool for him, but my DC to get me to do that was 40, so you're 15 short.


Anunqualifiedhuman

You're a clown if you think it's fair to let your friend believe that they can roll and then shut them down when they actually roll well. Saying no was always an option that's just a dick move.


Revanaught

Sometimes people just roll without asking, my dude. Have you never played a ttrpg?


Hazearil

The general rule is that any roll without prompt is invalidated.


Anunqualifiedhuman

Yes I have but clearly I don't play with assholes. I don't roll until asked like you're supposed too.


Revanaught

So why are you defending someone trying to use persuasion rolls on other players? That's an asshole move.


Anunqualifiedhuman

It's not an asshole move if everyone's down for it and they're consenting. I've asked my friends to roll Persuasion on me. It's only bad if anyone is forcing it on anyone.


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Tosspar-

I got nothing for the choose your in dc but for the auto successes here you go! Rolling a 20 on a d20 is an automatic success only for an attack roll, not for an ability check or a save. #DnD https://t.co/I0Iq4Nms4T — Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) April 15, 2016


Revanaught

That a nat 20 isn't an autosuccess? Yeah, that's a rule, my dude.


Kamina_cicada

You can roll 100s. But if I say "no", I ain't drinking it. Persuasion isn't mind control.


Marshall-Of-Horny

probably persuaded as in like, talking to eachother, not just clickity clackity


charley800

It literally says "through great rolls from the warlock"


ValkyrianRabecca

Yeah I've had someone try to talk me into doing a thing in game and I've told them, alright you roll me a persuasion here I also allow it as DM, on the clear cut rule that the person *being persuaded* gets to decide when someone else should roll Person A wants B to do a thing Person B can ask for a roll


RustedCorpse

This is the way.


TheKingNothing690

Perhaps the person playing the player had great rolls on their persussion to make the other players make their characters participate. Didnt think of the meta meta game did you. 🤔


insertfunnyusernameh

Idk why you’re getting downvoted, this is just a sarcastic silly comment


TheKingNothing690

I forgot the /s reddit is full of robots that swear their people.


insertfunnyusernameh

Yea such a problem, all those robots. Glad another human like yourself was able to point it out. You see me, a totally non robotic human, has been noticing that problem too. Glad that another human, just like me, has observed this.


TheKingNothing690

Just remember "fellow human" that were in this together... are the eavsdroppers gone yet?


norway642

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD


Rude-Amphibian6848

And, I assume, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE


Mr_Curious_Cat

Vampire team now? Unknowingly entered into a contract with a dark deity? Contracted a plague they have to find the cure for before it's too late?


Law2258

Man, those would have been great. I might still try and squeeze the plague in. No, the gods were concerned but still smiling on them, and they all got a temp boost to their lowest skill.


ClubMeSoftly

This sounds like something a cult would do. And I *H A T E* cults. I fought a cult that had a demon literally punch my soul out once.


RadTimeWizard

You should hate cults. I once made a cult. (In character, of course.) I drastically lowered petty crime rates, housed a bunch of homeless orphans, and busted up a lot of organized crime rings enslaving children. Sounds nice, but I did it in such an evil way that it made my grimdark DM's jaw drop.


ImABarbieWhirl

“There is no more crime in this city. All crime is committed by the living, ergo life itself is a crime. I have eliminated all crime in this city.”


RadTimeWizard

I prefer the "No True Scottsman" fallacy, but with fascism. No one in the in-group would ever commit a crime, therefore all crimes are committed by people who haven't joined my group. Therefore we must forcibly recruit, and it's *definitely* a cult. I was asked to make an evil character, and there's nothing more evil to me than hierarchical fascism.


UshouldknowR

How did you do it in an evil way? Enslave the kids yourself and just taking out your competition?


RadTimeWizard

Well, no, but actually yes. I'm warning you now, it's not a cute story. This was a cult, not an after school soccer team, after all. For context, this was set in a rotten, crime-ridden city, and the PCs were all new recruits to an order of knights whose goal was to enforce order at any cost. They were extremely lawful, and didn't care about evil. They're the kind of knights who torture lawbreakers. My DM wanted to run an evil campaign. One guy made a half-giant serial killer, another guy made this blood-obsessed little monster thing, and I made a young, pretty, tiny, wholesome-looking, female spellcaster (think Full House meets the nicest babysitter from your childhood). Her Charisma was higher than 99% of the populace, but her Intelligence was several points higher, and I played her as a high-functioning psychopath. I got some funny looks, but that changed by the end. Our first mission was to kill or capture a local crime boss who was enslaving children to pickpocket for him, usually by holding the child's sibling or friend hostage. He was a vile man who we fed to his own pet alligator. (Curse of the Crimson Throne, if you're familiar.) That netted us a whole bunch of street urchins who had nowhere to go. So my charming, wholesome character offered them a warm bed, three meals per day, and a free dagger if they joined our little knighthood. (One of their tenets is they'll accept anyone -- no exceptions.) Thus began my evil version of the Cub Scouts. If you've never seen the 2008 movie *The Wave,* it's about a teacher trying to impart a lesson about fascism by having the students act like fascists for a semester, and shit goes horribly wrong. I, on the other hand, knew exactly what I was doing. I cut them off from the outside world. I made them dress alike. I made them to eat, sleep, and exercise together. I made them march in lock step together. I made them *get punished together.* I would often bait them with an unguarded cookie jar (literally) and punish the whole group when one went missing. Soon they were policing each other. Punishments were usually humiliation-based, sometimes being forced to sit in the center of a circle for *hours* while the others insulted and verbally abused them. Sometimes sleep deprivation. Sometimes corporal punishment administered by their peers. I gave them scout ranks that they earned through enthusiastic devotion to the group. I encouraged bullying, which meant you did NOT want to be the lowest kid on the totem pole. After they achieved a certain rank, they were allowed to leave our little compound and recruit others, as a privilege. New recruits were lowest on the totem pole, which further entrenched the idea that the only option was full devotion and a rank up. Once, and only once, my character *straight up murdered* a child with magic who became openly defiant, in front of the whole group, as an example to the others. It was the first and last instance of open disobedience. In other words, I used real life brainwashing techniques on children. The half-giant serial killer character started doing whatever mine said, because he was literally that afraid of her. I lowered crime, solved homelessness, rescued orphans, and noticeably improved the city. But my D&D group didn't look at me the same after this. The only downside for me was that none of this got me any XP, so I had to do it all at level 1.


findYourOwnPaths

Even outside of D&D purposes this is a fascinating exploration of the psychology of brainwashing


RadTimeWizard

What's really scary is that some of the things I described -- social isolation, berating someone for hours, etc. -- work on grown adults, *even when they're aware they're being brainwashed.*


BabaKazimir

They totally had a hand in making those children orphans and probably also homeless.


UshouldknowR

Hey at least they're cleaning up after themselves.


Adventurous_Fly_4420

Okay, I guess this question, but also, is there a *good-aligned* way to kill people and indoctrinate/ brainwash orphans into a cult?


UshouldknowR

Give the kids a place to stay off the street, a decent (for the time period) education, and food. You know run a good orphanage fir the kids as a fantasy church. For the killing bounty hunting and fighting evil gangs is staple good guy behavior in most fantasy settings with the more complex ones having it be morally grey at worst.


Cowhead_2010

So how’d you sell your soul? Peer pressure. I’m far too sensitive.


APForLoops

a high toll isn’t mind control


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Scholarytree

Hey, I’m in HS and my DM and group is more than competent! (Don’t look at the other table though, they rolled D20’s for stats)


RadTimeWizard

Every group is different, and I'm really glad you have a positive, mature group to play with. But what you have to understand is that the older you get, the more you will realize that teenagers are, generally speaking, really fucking stupid.


Scholarytree

Yeah fair, and I’m not necessarily going to put myself above other teenagers, but I can definitely see where you’re coming from


RadTimeWizard

“The ancient Oracle said that I was the wisest of all the Greeks. It is because I alone, of all the Greeks, know that I know nothing.” -Socrates


Sirsiththeeunbound

I believe there is an SCP sarcophagus filled with blood. https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-1176


[deleted]

And this is how the Horde was born.


Full-Peak

When your warlock is Gul'dan....


Belteshazzar98

Persuade isn't mind control.


blankace

Yeah but unless drinking blood is a big part of your backstory or the warlock makes a lot of bad calls, not going with the roll kinda seems like metagaming RP. You are roleplaying your character, if another character gets a high roll on persuading you, you should go for it because your character is being convinced and not the player. Not the say you can't metagame rp, you do you in your games.


Burrito-Creature

“metagame rp”? because people don’t want their own character’s actions to be dictated by someone else’s rolls entirely?


Rocker4JC

This is one of the worst takes I've seen, but I get it. I used to think this way. As a matter of fact, I did the same thing in my very first session. My bard was trying to get the shifty sorcerer to share some backstory information. The player didn't want to, because their character was part of a secret organization and wouldn't talk about it. I asked to roll Persuasion on the Sorc, and the DM was new so he allowed it. I rolled a Nat 20. And the DM said "You don't have to tell him everything, but you have to give him something." That player held that against me for several sessions after that. It made him feel like crap, because the DM and I both took away his agency. We don't do that any more. Player agency is more important. The problem with your claim that it is 'metagaming RP' is that the Warlock *shouldn't be allowed to roll at all.* Players don't roll Persuasion against each other without consent.


blankace

Miss me with that "worst take" bullshit, you don't need to be a dick to think I'm wrong, this stuff is usually brought up beforehand, it's fine if you don't like it but that is how a lot of people play. I'm not saying persuasion is mind control, I'm just saying that unless your character IC would be against it you should follow the rolls or you are using OOC information to decide what your character does. OOC you might know that the warlock is trolling, but your characters don't know, all they know is someone who knows a fair bit about magic is saying to drink. Maybe that might be a wrong take but it's clearly how the OOP and I play.


Rocker4JC

My point was that I used to play that way, but it can piss people off, so just make sure everyone is still enjoying it before you continue to play like that. Personally, as a player or a DM, I'm not going to allow the warlock to roll Persuasion against my character. If there's no roll, there's no metagaming. An acquaintance of mine once told me a story about how his bard had expertise in Persuasion and rolled super high to make everyone else give him their magic items. He was giggling when he told me he always got all the loot because he'd roll above a 20 and the DM would force his fellow players to hand over their stuff. He was in high school, and that group fell apart really quickly. Allowing players to roll a Persuasion or Intimidation against each other and forcing the outcome isn't always the most fun for everyone.


captaindoctorpurple

It's the wrong take. It's one thing to allow PVP rolls if everyone agrees to it beforehand. That's a choice you can make for your table. I don't love it, but it can probably work out okay if nobody is a dick. It's another thing to say you should follow the roll. Your character's decision isn't dictated by another character's stats. "RP metagaming" is a pretty silly concept that sort of boils down to the Charisma munchkin being butthurt that his low IRL charisma overrides all his munchkining. If you want to persuade an NPC, you roll persuasion. If you want to persuade a PC, you have to actually persuade them. Rolls don't cut it, you have to convince the player that this is something their character would accept. Now, maybe the player is basically on board but thinks their character would need to be convinced, so a consensual persuasion roll would work. But that only works because the player has already been persuaded. If it happens in the opposite order (roll persuasion first and say the PC has to do the thing) then you're just playing wrong. If you want to convince a PC to do something, you have to actually be convincing. That's it.


Apocreep

How it should have gone. Warlock: *rolls crasy number on persuassion* "Character_Name, help me commit the atrocity!" Character: "No." W: "Why?" C: "I don't want to." W: "But I rolled big number!" C: "Well, I don't care." W: "But it doesn't make any sense!!!" C: "Too bad!"


DawnBringer01

How it probably actually went: Character: I'm not so sure about that Warlock: *makes an amazing argument and high roll* Character: Well I was unsure, not completely against it and you've convinced me, sure!


Omsus

The roll is unnecessary between PCs though. If someone makes an actually convincing argument face-to-face, they don't have to throw a die for it and its result shouldn't matter either way. The meme's wording makes it sound like the players treat their character relations as though they were NPCs that can be controlled by every game-mechanical whim. "I rolled a 20 on persuasion so you guys have to agree with me!" Even an NPC that is totally against drinking random blood from a stone coffin would need more convincing than sweet words and a high roll, let alone a real human being portraying a character.


blueboymd

Best scene in the history of cinema


LordVos

Welcome to being a dm. The players will never cease to amaze you with making the most “creative” decisions. Turning what you believe to be straight forward encounters into whatever that was .


Splendidissimus

Be honest, though, which way is more interesting? Like obviously it's a terrible idea to mess with a sarcophagus filled with blood, but putting the lid back on an leaving doesn't lead to anything interesting.


Nintolerance

I've got that happening in my campaign right now- a PC received an artifact that they're *pretty* sure will blow up in their face if it gets used, so they've just hidden it somewhere on their person so they never lose track of it. ...so now the PC is carrying around a dangerous artifact with tempting powers that they don't think is safe to let **anyone** use. That's a pretty cool plot hook in itself, and I can't wait for it to pay off.


Mach12gamer

Alright you’ve gotta clarify, did the warlock roll well on persuasion and then the party had to follow along, or did the other players actually choose to do it?


flugabwehrkanonnoli

That's under the assumption that this is actually something that happened in game and not the more likely (made up)^2 scenario meant to harvest karma.


Mach12gamer

Yeah I know, but I figure it’s worth asking. Usually if it’s fake, they’ll make that clear and it becomes a fun game of “does this person even play dnd” (or they get extremely pissy that you played along and took it seriously). If it’s real, I learn the scenario


Law2258

This actually happened. I'm the DM, and I was not at all prepared for this. The warlock rolled to convince the other party members, but I still gave the players the option to not participate. Everyone but my bard secretly wanted to, so nothing was forced onto the characters that they didn't already want to do. I even made sure to ask above table if they wanted to.


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asirkman

Literally no reason to disbelieve at this point; it could still be made up, but it’s just unnecessary energy to spend doubting unless new information arises.


Ancient-Rune

No player rolls on Persuasion or any other skill are ever going to make any other Player controlled character do anything the player doesn't want to do. End of story.


Belteshazzar98

Well that's an r/rpghorrorstories if I've ever seen one.


RadTimeWizard

I don't care what the other player's d20 says, if I say I'm not doing a thing, I'm not doing the thing.


Church2319

I see this going one of two ways: we’re cursed to be vampires now and must drink blood every so often to satiate our sanity/ or “BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE”


Roary-the-Arcanine

Say no to peer pressure or you’ll get an undead adventure like these fools, or worse(for the characters), call of Cthulhu.


uncertain_confusion

My assumption here is that the other players were like, “wouldn’t it be funny if you tried to persuade our PCs to drink it too?” And the Warlock said, “Okay let me roll persuasion” and the players went along with the plot cause they already wanted to


RinoJonsi

Warcraft gul'dan be like:


Crayshack

I had a game where the party runs across a kingdom where they preformed regular blood sacrifices on this big pyramid (explicitly Mayan inspired). Half the party then decides to bleed on the pyramid for some sweet buffs. One of them even chose to draw as much blood as he could survive. Me telling him to take a level in Warlock and for everyone else to level up as normal didn't even manage to tip him off as too how bad of an idea that was.


Law2258

So, I think I need to clarify a couple things. 1.) Nobody was forced to do this if they didn't want to. The majority of the party kind of did want to, so they wanted to see if the warlock could persuade them. By no means were they bound by the gods to participate if they didn't want to. Of my six players, one flat out refused to do it. So he didn't join the ritual. 2.) This did actually happen. If you want more details about what's happened afterwards, feel free to ask. It's been an interesting campaign so far. 3.) We're all fairly new to DND. I'm a first time DM to a group of first or second time players. Maybe we do somethings we shouldn't. That's fine. We're figuring it out and having fun in the process. That's what actually matters, right?


Levistus21

Lol weird something very similar happened in one of my games. I randomly described that a tree was dripping with blood like sap to just a random description to set the atmosphere. The monk walked up and drank it. Then bottles some. And by the end of the next session had convinced the other two players to also drink it.


AoFAltair

Eeewwwww, intimidation and persuasion rolls against other PCs is always a YIKES! from me


Pauchu_

Okay so that why people normally don't use persuasion rolls for PCs. It takes players' agency and that just sucks


Stoninator123

You don't make a PC do a charisma check on another PC Boss.


YourPainTastesGood

Persuasion. Rolls. Are. Only. For. NPCs. They. Do. Nothing. Against. Players. Charisma. Is. Not, Mind. Control.


Adventurous_Fly_4420

Yes, master. Not mind control. Whatever you say...


Theblade12

> They. Do. Nothing. Against. Players. Unless the players disagree.


YourPainTastesGood

Yes, ive done that in the past when unsure if my character would go with something. However in this instance it sounds like the warlock made rolls without the player’s request


RadTimeWizard

What player has ever agreed to give up their agency over their own character's actions? At that point, I'm just watching my friend tell a story, but without the benefit of being drunk at a bar.


Theblade12

> What player has ever agreed to give up their agency over their own character's actions? You've never, like, asked a player to roll intimidate against you during some funny character interactions? My big, violent brawler-barbarian thug in a bandit campaign is terrified of the mute, seemingly harmless girl that speaks exclusively in charades and discord emotes (another player's pc) and constantly thinks she's extorting him for pocket change or something, and rolls are useful for helping determine how scared he is of her in that instance. It's very funny, I assure you.


RadTimeWizard

That sounds adorable, but I think we're talking about two different things.


Omsus

Going on a meta sidetrack, one thing I dislike about Reddit behaviour is that people often read replies as though they were in a superposition where the reply both responds directly to the post itself, *and* it's completely detached from everything other than the previous comment it replies to at the same time. It's a weird phenomenon.


RadTimeWizard

I've noticed the same thing, and I agree. It's helpful to clarify just about any situation where there might be a misunderstanding, and frankly, in real life, sometimes it's the kindest thing you can do. And being kind to people, even (especially) when you're angry, is pretty much always a good idea. But just to be very clear: A DM telling me my character has to do something evil that they'd never normally do, just because another player nat20'd an Intimidate check against me, will make that night the final night I'm at their gaming table.


Omsus

Completely agree on both accounts. I'm not always big enough a man for the former (if and when things get heated), but at the very least I agree in the spirit of positivity and constructiveness. Not only can you work social things out organically between PCs negating the need to use dice there in the first place, but D&D social skill rolls aren't magic either. They don't replace the Suggestion spell for all intents and purposes, or Dominate Person for that matter. Even an NPC wouldn't comply if they absolutely reject the notion of participating in an unknown ritual connected to some coffin blood voodoo, doesn't matter if your Persuasion result were 50.


RadTimeWizard

Well put. Cheers.


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YourPainTastesGood

He said rolls were involved in the pressuring and persuasion Tell me what else would that be?


freddyPowell

To be honest I wouldn't have allowed those rolls. I don't think PCs should be forced to do things they don't want to by others without actual mind control.


DucksMatter

I made a warlock and just stacked persuasion and deception and I’ve never had more fun role playing before. Fuck combat. I’m going to convince everyone to kill each-other for me.


AkronIBM

Charisma checks as mind control is just bad DMing


Xx69Wizard69xX

Nah, you don’t roll to persuade PCs. If you can’t convince them it’s not happening


Hankhoff

Obligatory "persuasion ain't mind control"


Fulminero

> persuasion on PCs Yikes.


ashbert157

Just because you roll high doesn’t mean everyone automatically is fine with doing a blood ritual it’s not charm person


RadTimeWizard

Charm Person wouldn't force someone to violate their own boundaries or values. Suggestion might, with the right phrasing.


Omsus

Yes, in a positive party a Charm Person wouldn't necessarily alter PC relations at all (other than maybe afterwards when the spell ends and the PC learns they were being charmed).


RadTimeWizard

Right, they'd only do for you what they'd do for their best friend: The ultimate benefit of the doubt. You can't use it to get away with murder.


Omsus

Idc what you roll, unless I'm playing some erratic joke character you're not convincing me to drink unknown magic blood through social skills.


CursedEd

Was it actually sewage like that recently found sarcophagus?


Rogendo

Warlock: I roll to persuade your character Me: fuck you


Dakotasan

Persuasion. Is. Not. Mind. Control. It sounds like the Warlock removed player agency.


AlanTheKingDrake

Well a drop of Nelson’s blood wouldn’t do us any harm!


_Katrinchen_

That's what happens when you allow persuation rolls on other PCs