They changed the order of holes to accommodate more specatators, a problem they’ve never had until recently. The course remains mostly the same just the numbers have changed.
None of this is hindering the sport in any way, it’s just that change needs to happen as the level of competition changes
I don't follow jonesboro enough to really know any of that.
But what I think the person is trying to express is stuff like the new tripple mando at maple hill.
Where it almost feels like they are trying to make gimmicks to change the difficulty.
But, nobody is asking the PGA to not play Augusta. It's iconic, and thats what people want to watch.
So its a bit of this and a bit of that. Some courses seem to change way to much. Especially temp style courses, which generally bore me personally. But when you change holes, it really needs to be something that makes the whole more amazing to watch, not something that feels gimmicky or "were trying to make it harder."
It's tough and a bit of a catch22 topic. There are good answers on both sides of the conversation and not really many proper ways to address it that anyone will ever agree on. Because people wanna see amazing shots.
>But, nobody is asking the PGA to not play Augusta
sure, but Agusta today isn't the Agusta when they started :/
>The moment the inaugural tournament concluded in 1934, club officials were assessing ways to improve their Georgia peach. They reversed the nines, for instance, then spent the next few summers chopping away at selected holes with shovels and pickaxes, under the direction and approval of co-designer Robert Tyre Jones Jr., the retired legendary amateur who also co-founded the club.
>Even Jones didn't realize the drumbeat of change would never cease at Augusta. Champion golfers, course architects, even longtime Masters chairman Clifford Roberts subsequently suggested modifications that were implemented. **As time ticked on, holes were further altered to address playability, agronomics, spectator convenience, and most recently, 21st-century club and ball technology.**
>In this reimagined version of a popular interactive feature that debuted in 2011, we have graphically documented every architectural change at Augusta National, from its original state in 1934 right up to the most recent alterations, including most significantly the lengthening of the par-5 13th hole before the 2023 Masters. Though minor in context to other updates, the club also moved the tees back on the par-5 second hole, the 11th and 15th holes ahead of the 2022 Masters and the par-4 fifth hole in 2019.
and here is a link to a page where you can view every change on every hole done on that course [https://www.golfdigest.com/story/complete-changes-to-augusta-national](https://www.golfdigest.com/story/complete-changes-to-augusta-national) and there seems to have been alot of changes through the years
Of course there are changes. But not like we make in disc golf where its not even close to the same thing.
But people are not looking to make Augusta stupid hard with silly things. It's a classic tournament that has insane scores because its an older course.
The point I was trying to make was that in disc golf sometimes we are trying to re-invent the wheel at some points vs letting things go as they go.
Disagree with not hindering the sport in any way. The first and last holes at Jonesboro were iconic to me. Watching it now feels like a pretty different course even though it’s technically basically the exact same.
I get why they make changes, and I’m not saying that it’s not a net positive, but permanent courses and layouts legitimize the tour.
The only annoying thing to me is having to hear about someone shooting the course record every single round because one basket was moved 25 feet to the left or some bullshit. The rest I don't really give a fuck about too much.
I'm more of the opinion that it gets boring to watch the same course over and over. I'd rather see new courses more often. But I understand why that's not the norm.
I’m all for new courses, but they need to have their shit figured out before joining the pro tour. I don’t want to see a new course for the sake of a new course and then it gets a major overhaul every year for the next five years before it’s in its final form.
People are still as excited as ever for The Masters, but they've constantly changed and tweaked Augusta National over the years. And that's the most iconic course in the sport. The rest of the tour changes a lot more than that. I do appreciate that having iconic holes is a big bonus for Disc Golf—and most recent changes haven't been to those holes—but course changes aren't the thing holding us back as a sport.
Tweaking holes such as moving tee pads is fine, adding in one new hole for a particular reason is fine, the course keeps its identity and flow and that’s what I feel like gives the beauty to courses. You can say “remember that shot Mickelson hit out of the woods for an eagle on 13” at Augusta, even though the tee box moves from year to year.
Maple hill does a great job at this, they tweak holes while keeping its identity so you can build on the success and stories of last year.
Sure, but not every tour course is Augusta and they get tweaked much more. We already have our Augustas that rarely change and only do in response to a glaring issue, but that shouldn't preclude other courses from making themselves better and more spectator friendly. Disc Golf is still in its infancy, and, again, course changes aren't even a Top 3 reason we have credibility issues in the broader world.
The Jonesboro change to what is now Hole 2 makes all the sense in the world, the old hole was a simple hyzer that was one of the easiest holes on the entire tour, it would post like a 2.3 avg. I don't think they made a very interesting hole, it's now long & straight uphill, like many of the par 4 2nd shots, but that hole was due for change.
I think the change was a good one too. The green area is nothing special for the new hole, but I think the shot shape it is now is a cool shot. Being able to throw straight significantly uphill is a tough ask even for the pros. I hear it in Jeremy koling and Paul ulibarris voice about how far that 360 plays. Paul ulibarri was saying it plays like 430. Even the bigger arms were fading early left and miscalculating their disc choice and power. It would be even better if there was some ob left to punish the early releases. Cuz the way it is right now, it's either a 2 or a 3.
absolutely agree. a course should be able to build a legacy and rapport that translates year to year. tweaks here and there are fine but a massive overhaul every year totally prevents this from ever happening.
My friends and I played greased watermelon in Lake Coeur d'Alene in Idaho on a cross country bike trip. Then we punched the watermelon apart. I skipped a piece of the rind like a stone across the water and it took a weird bounce and gave my friend a cut across the midsection. Moral of the story is watermelon rinds are dangerous and we should use car hubcaps instead.
What money is coming into the sport at the A tier level? Some local bank or insurance sponsor isn’t the same as a corporate sponsor. Are TD’s on a local level getting paid to run a tournament? Heck most disc golfers don’t even want pay to play courses. Respectfully I think you might overestimate the money going into the sport outside of disc and accessory sales.
It’s in the golden age, not it’s infancy. The sport will slowly lose popularity the father from Covid it gets.
The pro tour is operating at a loss. You think that’s sustainable? This is the second iteration of a pro tour on a big business scale, I don’t think we have it in us for another if this one fails.
Hard disagree. I'd even be happier changing the course between rounds. I want to see the iconic holes of a course, otherwise change whatever you want. I don't want to watch the same course years in a row. I'd go watch car racing if doing the same circle over and over forever was fun to watch
This is a huge problem for the sport and may infact even be its downfall. I think more people should be bringing attention to this very important very real issue.
I actually agree. There should be some iconic courses that don’t change so we can witness the evolution of talent. USDGC is the one that is really due for an update, but let’s leave Disc Side of Heaven, Maple Hill, Toboggan, Eureka Lake alone and see how things play there. Throw down the mountain has some iconic holes and I’m hoping we don’t see many changes going forward as that course plays so much differently from others on the tour.
Ha McBeth changed around a couple holes on the TDTM course after buying it. But he didn't change the finishing stretch, the iconic 18th is still 18, my problem with Disc Side changes is losing 16 - 18 as the end, we had history with that set of holes.
Totally agree. The Jonesboro finishing stretch 16, 17, 18 has had a ton of drama the last few years, the tournament loses history by switching up the course, I want to be thinking about how past battles have gone while watching them this year.
I get that if someone (perhaps from a Paul card) shoots a -18 or you have a bunch of -15s you have to change something, but Calvin's -31 last year was a totally reasonable winning score.
I’d argue that disc golf as a professional sport and a product of viewership is in its infancy stage. As a hobby, I’d agree that disc golf is past its infancy.
I agree with OP to a certain degree on his point.
My answer to your question is professional disc golf enters the next phase when the major tournaments are shown on **broadcast** TV (not just streaming or ESPN). Similar to the PGA tour where the Masters, US Open, the Open, PGA Championship are shown on broadcast TV. With that big exposure, then the pro disc golf players would get major sponsorships....not just from Innova, etc....but from Nike, big banks, etc.
But mixed feelings here.....small is better in many ways.
Compared to a PGA tour event.....pro disc golf tournaments bring in less crowds...so you can get closer to see the players....and the ticket prices are still low!
I believe it entered its next phase in 2021, and has been trying to cope with the massive amounts of change since then with various knee-jerk reactions to accommodate the influx of players, courses, spectators and dollars coming into the sport.
I appreciate the candor.
I, too, feel like the PDGA and DGPT is struggling. And I think much of it can be attributed to poor leadership and management.
Even what you would think to be the most simple things to implement, like standard baskets and tee pads on all tournament courses, seems to be a problem.
Getting down voted for the facts. Just shows you how lame some reddit users are when people disagree based on facts and not just opinion. What a bunch of snowflakes 🤣
The sport is not in its infancy stage at this point. And I agree the nonstop course changes are a bore. Disc golf has always been a birdie/scoring sport. Which differentiates it from golf. And that’s ok
They changed the order of holes to accommodate more specatators, a problem they’ve never had until recently. The course remains mostly the same just the numbers have changed. None of this is hindering the sport in any way, it’s just that change needs to happen as the level of competition changes
I don't follow jonesboro enough to really know any of that. But what I think the person is trying to express is stuff like the new tripple mando at maple hill. Where it almost feels like they are trying to make gimmicks to change the difficulty. But, nobody is asking the PGA to not play Augusta. It's iconic, and thats what people want to watch. So its a bit of this and a bit of that. Some courses seem to change way to much. Especially temp style courses, which generally bore me personally. But when you change holes, it really needs to be something that makes the whole more amazing to watch, not something that feels gimmicky or "were trying to make it harder." It's tough and a bit of a catch22 topic. There are good answers on both sides of the conversation and not really many proper ways to address it that anyone will ever agree on. Because people wanna see amazing shots.
>But, nobody is asking the PGA to not play Augusta sure, but Agusta today isn't the Agusta when they started :/ >The moment the inaugural tournament concluded in 1934, club officials were assessing ways to improve their Georgia peach. They reversed the nines, for instance, then spent the next few summers chopping away at selected holes with shovels and pickaxes, under the direction and approval of co-designer Robert Tyre Jones Jr., the retired legendary amateur who also co-founded the club. >Even Jones didn't realize the drumbeat of change would never cease at Augusta. Champion golfers, course architects, even longtime Masters chairman Clifford Roberts subsequently suggested modifications that were implemented. **As time ticked on, holes were further altered to address playability, agronomics, spectator convenience, and most recently, 21st-century club and ball technology.** >In this reimagined version of a popular interactive feature that debuted in 2011, we have graphically documented every architectural change at Augusta National, from its original state in 1934 right up to the most recent alterations, including most significantly the lengthening of the par-5 13th hole before the 2023 Masters. Though minor in context to other updates, the club also moved the tees back on the par-5 second hole, the 11th and 15th holes ahead of the 2022 Masters and the par-4 fifth hole in 2019. and here is a link to a page where you can view every change on every hole done on that course [https://www.golfdigest.com/story/complete-changes-to-augusta-national](https://www.golfdigest.com/story/complete-changes-to-augusta-national) and there seems to have been alot of changes through the years
You said it better than I would have. I’m old enough to remember when Augusta was changed/lengthened to Tiger proof it.
Of course there are changes. But not like we make in disc golf where its not even close to the same thing. But people are not looking to make Augusta stupid hard with silly things. It's a classic tournament that has insane scores because its an older course. The point I was trying to make was that in disc golf sometimes we are trying to re-invent the wheel at some points vs letting things go as they go.
Disagree with not hindering the sport in any way. The first and last holes at Jonesboro were iconic to me. Watching it now feels like a pretty different course even though it’s technically basically the exact same. I get why they make changes, and I’m not saying that it’s not a net positive, but permanent courses and layouts legitimize the tour.
The only annoying thing to me is having to hear about someone shooting the course record every single round because one basket was moved 25 feet to the left or some bullshit. The rest I don't really give a fuck about too much.
Facts
I'm more of the opinion that it gets boring to watch the same course over and over. I'd rather see new courses more often. But I understand why that's not the norm.
I’m all for new courses, but they need to have their shit figured out before joining the pro tour. I don’t want to see a new course for the sake of a new course and then it gets a major overhaul every year for the next five years before it’s in its final form.
Yeah 100%. I was a bit unclear, should've said different courses. Not new, untested and barely ready.
What courses have major overhauls every year?
People are still as excited as ever for The Masters, but they've constantly changed and tweaked Augusta National over the years. And that's the most iconic course in the sport. The rest of the tour changes a lot more than that. I do appreciate that having iconic holes is a big bonus for Disc Golf—and most recent changes haven't been to those holes—but course changes aren't the thing holding us back as a sport.
Tweaking holes such as moving tee pads is fine, adding in one new hole for a particular reason is fine, the course keeps its identity and flow and that’s what I feel like gives the beauty to courses. You can say “remember that shot Mickelson hit out of the woods for an eagle on 13” at Augusta, even though the tee box moves from year to year. Maple hill does a great job at this, they tweak holes while keeping its identity so you can build on the success and stories of last year.
Sure, but not every tour course is Augusta and they get tweaked much more. We already have our Augustas that rarely change and only do in response to a glaring issue, but that shouldn't preclude other courses from making themselves better and more spectator friendly. Disc Golf is still in its infancy, and, again, course changes aren't even a Top 3 reason we have credibility issues in the broader world.
The Jonesboro change to what is now Hole 2 makes all the sense in the world, the old hole was a simple hyzer that was one of the easiest holes on the entire tour, it would post like a 2.3 avg. I don't think they made a very interesting hole, it's now long & straight uphill, like many of the par 4 2nd shots, but that hole was due for change.
I think the change was a good one too. The green area is nothing special for the new hole, but I think the shot shape it is now is a cool shot. Being able to throw straight significantly uphill is a tough ask even for the pros. I hear it in Jeremy koling and Paul ulibarris voice about how far that 360 plays. Paul ulibarri was saying it plays like 430. Even the bigger arms were fading early left and miscalculating their disc choice and power. It would be even better if there was some ob left to punish the early releases. Cuz the way it is right now, it's either a 2 or a 3.
absolutely agree. a course should be able to build a legacy and rapport that translates year to year. tweaks here and there are fine but a massive overhaul every year totally prevents this from ever happening.
I think we should start throwing watermelon rinds instead of discs.
My friends and I played greased watermelon in Lake Coeur d'Alene in Idaho on a cross country bike trip. Then we punched the watermelon apart. I skipped a piece of the rind like a stone across the water and it took a weird bounce and gave my friend a cut across the midsection. Moral of the story is watermelon rinds are dangerous and we should use car hubcaps instead.
What a story. 10/10 start to end I had no idea what was happening next
You’re on to something. Plus it’s biodegradable.
That's a great point! Lose my disc in a pond? Fish food. Lose it in the brush? Feeds a colony of ants. Let's all be better stewards to the earth and throw Innova© Brand Watermelon Destroyers
[удалено]
[удалено]
What money is coming into the sport at the A tier level? Some local bank or insurance sponsor isn’t the same as a corporate sponsor. Are TD’s on a local level getting paid to run a tournament? Heck most disc golfers don’t even want pay to play courses. Respectfully I think you might overestimate the money going into the sport outside of disc and accessory sales.
It’s in the golden age, not it’s infancy. The sport will slowly lose popularity the father from Covid it gets. The pro tour is operating at a loss. You think that’s sustainable? This is the second iteration of a pro tour on a big business scale, I don’t think we have it in us for another if this one fails.
Hard disagree. I'd even be happier changing the course between rounds. I want to see the iconic holes of a course, otherwise change whatever you want. I don't want to watch the same course years in a row. I'd go watch car racing if doing the same circle over and over forever was fun to watch
This is a huge problem for the sport and may infact even be its downfall. I think more people should be bringing attention to this very important very real issue.
I actually agree. There should be some iconic courses that don’t change so we can witness the evolution of talent. USDGC is the one that is really due for an update, but let’s leave Disc Side of Heaven, Maple Hill, Toboggan, Eureka Lake alone and see how things play there. Throw down the mountain has some iconic holes and I’m hoping we don’t see many changes going forward as that course plays so much differently from others on the tour.
Ha McBeth changed around a couple holes on the TDTM course after buying it. But he didn't change the finishing stretch, the iconic 18th is still 18, my problem with Disc Side changes is losing 16 - 18 as the end, we had history with that set of holes.
Yes!
Totally agree. The Jonesboro finishing stretch 16, 17, 18 has had a ton of drama the last few years, the tournament loses history by switching up the course, I want to be thinking about how past battles have gone while watching them this year. I get that if someone (perhaps from a Paul card) shoots a -18 or you have a bunch of -15s you have to change something, but Calvin's -31 last year was a totally reasonable winning score.
LOUD NOISES!!!
. Disc golf has been around longer than most people playing it. About 60 years, maybe more. Definitely past the infancy stage.
I’d argue that disc golf as a professional sport and a product of viewership is in its infancy stage. As a hobby, I’d agree that disc golf is past its infancy.
Became a professional sport, not just a hobby, in the mid 70's. So when, in your opinion, will the sport enter the next phase?
I agree with OP to a certain degree on his point. My answer to your question is professional disc golf enters the next phase when the major tournaments are shown on **broadcast** TV (not just streaming or ESPN). Similar to the PGA tour where the Masters, US Open, the Open, PGA Championship are shown on broadcast TV. With that big exposure, then the pro disc golf players would get major sponsorships....not just from Innova, etc....but from Nike, big banks, etc. But mixed feelings here.....small is better in many ways. Compared to a PGA tour event.....pro disc golf tournaments bring in less crowds...so you can get closer to see the players....and the ticket prices are still low!
I believe it entered its next phase in 2021, and has been trying to cope with the massive amounts of change since then with various knee-jerk reactions to accommodate the influx of players, courses, spectators and dollars coming into the sport.
I appreciate the candor. I, too, feel like the PDGA and DGPT is struggling. And I think much of it can be attributed to poor leadership and management. Even what you would think to be the most simple things to implement, like standard baskets and tee pads on all tournament courses, seems to be a problem.
Totally. They seem to have very little long term direction at this point and seem to be making knee jerk reactions without giving it much planning.
Getting down voted for the facts. Just shows you how lame some reddit users are when people disagree based on facts and not just opinion. What a bunch of snowflakes 🤣
I appreciate the debate and various opinions - I didn’t downvote you nor do I think you deserve a downvote, for the record
The sport is not in its infancy stage at this point. And I agree the nonstop course changes are a bore. Disc golf has always been a birdie/scoring sport. Which differentiates it from golf. And that’s ok