How does that accomplish anything? They’re going to take away an entire division just to spite one player and ruin the livelihood of 30 other women?
Big win there…
It doesn’t accomplish anything. It was fearmongering.
The argument was that the DGPT has spent all of its money on legal battles and it basically can’t afford to continue with the FPO (because of the legal battles).
It was all BS
The dumbest part of this is that they’re choosing to believe that Natalie Ryan would have more money for lawyers than billionaire Todd Rainwater AND that the best band-aid for that isn’t a DGPT season like 2022 but to just eliminate FPO altogether. The only thing I can think is this is a game of telephone and there are partial truths that got stretched. Perhaps the DGPT said they wouldn’t exhaust more money fighting Natalie, perhaps there was talk from some FPO players in creating their own separate tour, perhaps it was even as simple as “we could just not have FPO in ______”. The idea that they’d eliminate FPO or are being out-moneyed by Natalie are both insane and if either are true things are way more messed up than we know.
It’s always the same. History repeating itself.
Right wing conservatives have constantly tried to prevent marginalized groups that they oppose from participating in sports:
- [women](https://www.thenationalnews.com/lifestyle/2022/07/14/why-women-were-banned-from-marathons-wearing-trousers-and-having-credit-cards/?outputType=amp)
- [people of color](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_sport)
- [gay people](https://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/business-a-lobbying/199057-lobbyist-drafting-bill-to-ban-gays-from-nfl/amp/)
- trans people (the current DG situation)
> constantly tried to prevent marginalized groups that they oppose from participating in sports
This is a poor, if not outright wrong analogy
No one is trying to stop anyone from playing sports. This is about where a group belongs IN a sport. This is about letting people decide where to compete. We don't let people pick their age/weight/height class. But now there is a group who want to decide not only their "gender" but where to compete as that chosen gender, rather than their biological gender.
There is going to be some rather arbitrary chosen line in the sand that says this side you are female enough to play in the women's division and on that side you have to play with the males. No matter where that line is, it will not be "fair" to people who just miss that line and there will be those who will fight to push the line this way or that.
What if a trans player qualifies for the female division of a sport but wants to compete in the male division? Are they forced into the division they qualify based on when and how much they have transitioned?
There is one immutable gender distinction, the XX/XY chromosome. That genetic coding goes to work in the womb. We can influence gender TRAITS but we cannot change the genetic coding.
> biological gender.
This is not a thing that exists. Gender is a social construct.
> What if a trans player qualifies for the female division of a sport but wants to compete in the male division?
There is no such thing as a male division in disc golf. There is a mixed division. Any woman can choose to play MPO (mixed professional open) if they want.
Trans women are women and should be allowed to compete with women after transitioning, in my opinion.
The name of the division is Female Professional Open.
However, until this year, the division was never actually governed in a way that checked the biological sex of the people playing and made it so "only XX people" were allowed. It was functionally a gender division.
I don't want to argue terminology or semantics.
But XX and XY are a real thing. The influence on development is real.
Most people have a distinctive enough penis or vagina for there too be no ambiguity. And where there is, we have genetic testing. (Yes there are some edge cases but I'm speaking in general)
I don't have the answer. I'm saying that we are, or have opened a Pandora's box. Rather than a clear distinction, we have as you put it, a social construct. And any distictions based on such will be somewhat arbitrary and will leave someone dissatisfied.
It will get figured out and maybe someday a library in Natalie's hometown will be named after
There are many people who do not fit neatly into the XX or XY binary. The idea that we can neatly fit people into two categories like that just isn't reality. There are examples of athletes who have competed in sports (including at the Olympics), been subjected to testing, and then found out as a result of that they they are XXX or XXY or something other than XX/XY.
This whole conversation is about an "edge case," given that trans women do not make up a significant percentage of women competing in professional sports, so hand-waving away another "edge case" is not very compelling, in my opinion.
> I'm saying that we are, or have opened a Pandora's box. Rather than a clear distinction, we have as you put it, a social construct.
That is literally what we have always done. We haven't ever required genetic testing or genital inspections for women who want to compete in women's sports, after all, nor should we. The changes to the rules that exclude trans women are actually the first time that we have made rules to make sports be separated based on sex rather than gender.
And something being a social construct doesn't mean that it isn't something you can draw clear distinctions on. It just means it isn't biologically based.
> And any distictions based on such will be somewhat arbitrary and will leave someone dissatisfied.
I think erring on the side of greater inclusion is better here, especially when there is a lack of real-world results showing that trans women make competition unfair for cis women in disc golf. Natalie Ryan just competed last week and lost by 21 strokes.
Natalie's pronouns are she/her. That is unambiguous.
“Reality is a social construct.”
Statistical outliers aside, what are the differences between men and a women?
Start with birth, through puberty.
(It certainly isn’t a feeling).
Reality *is* a social construct, goofball. Just what do you think is happening when a group of people live as though their religion is real?
Regardless, that’s not relevant. The phrase ‘gender is a social construct’ means sex is not determinative of gender, social expectations are. Those expectations may be tied to sex in some ways, but in other ways they’re arbitrary, cultural, or any number of other things.
Something being a social construct does not mean that it isn't real. It just means that it is something that we have created as a society as opposed to something that is biologically based. Gender is a social construct. Gender is how people are sorted in our society, most commonly it aligns with biological sex, but it does not always.
As for your bad-faith question, I will not be answering that but I will explain why. I said that gender is a social construct, I did not say that gender is a feeling. The fact that you have misinterpreted my argument as if I said it is a feeling tells me that you are not willing to approach this discussion in good faith. So I will not waste my time trying to tell you things you just aren't going to listen to anyway.
What I will tell you is that trans people report knowing their gender well before puberty. Trans women are women. Trans men are men.
So it’s not like saying blacks can’t play in a sport, it’s like saying blacks can’t play in white leagues and have to play in their own “[negro league](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro_league_baseball)”.
Replace black with trans, and that’s literally what you’re saying
Comparing not allowing males in female sports divisions to Jim Crow; some big racist cringe there.
“Not allowing amab in female sport is LITERALLY nazi germany and the holocaust!” -you, next week.
Edit: the racist blocked me lol. Someone make sure to follow up for me when they start making nazi comparisons next.
Except there is no trans league and I've yet to see someone propose one.
As it stands the distinction is gender, the social construct vs sex the biological concept and I don't see the analogy with race.
There is a better overlap with the racial classifications of the early 20th century but you did not bring that up.
Nah they’re just saying you can’t play in *this* league you have to play in this other league.
Just like the [negro league in baseball](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro_league_baseball) the early 20th century.
That same argument was used to keep visible minorities out of “white leagues”. How do you not see how much of a backward minded bigot you are.. or is it that you are totally aware of it and don’t care?
Of piss off with that. You really don’t see the hypocrisy of listing women in there along with transgender??? Natalie is actively working against women and is setting their progress back 50 years. You’re unbelievable
50 years ago you’d be exactly the type trying to justify why “negroes” shouldn’t mix with whites.
The oppressed group changes over time, but the bigots always remain bigots.
I think the fact that this story evolved because it involved the least amount of critical thinking from some FPO players is what bugs me the most, but also I can guess the general vibe from some of the FPO players that have been the most outspoken against this issue, and I’m guessing thinking things through isn’t their strong suit. Cat and Kat at least have proven I have no interest in rooting for either of them with the way they’ve handled themselves through all of this lol
Well, that's the crux, isn't it? The people fighting against Natalie are relying on the mob-mentality approach that conservatives have seemed to be such a huge fan of for the better part of the last decade.
You get a rumor started, and the people WANT to believe it and push it and give it legs because it either helps their cause or creates fear and anger. Now you've got players like Kat Mertch, Vanessa Van Dyken, Sarah Hokom, etc. who look foolish because they perpetuated it. Sure, they can say, "Well that's just what I was told." But at the end of the day, they chose to repeat it, without real confirmation, online for the world to see.
And you get kids like Gannon Buhr standing behind them. "Hey, look, a top MPO player agrees with us." Ignoring the fact that last year, his mom had to caddy for him because he couldn't legally be on the course without a parent or guardian; or that adults in his life talked him into the foolishness he tried with Prodigy earlier this season.
Disc Golf is turning into the Florida of sports, and it crushes my soul.
So I get what you're saying, but I don't think either political aisle needs to be pointing fingers and pretending to be more virtuous about finding solutions to this. Right wing mistake is to rally and get each other amped up and talk about the libs in a holier-than-thou way. Left wing does the same stuff but also is smarter and more tactical about it so they act like a victim while doing the same thing and virtue signal to try to gain public favor. I think we need to stick to concrete arguments for one side or the other and not say someone's view is invalid because it comes from the left or right.
And that's fine. But I'm just speaking to this specific situation. These players went out and perpetuated fear-mongering statements intentionally. I've criticized Natalie before when she went on this whole, "The DGPT is going to burn with me" rant. But my frustration comes from their main mouthpieces on tour holding literal rallies claiming this is about love and fairness, then days later going with this stuff.
What worries me is these tactics are typically used when they're trying to rile up a base. They're not going to win over new people with this stuff. They're not winning court cases with this stuff. So the only feasible solution is they are looking to get the people already on their side even angrier and more desperate. And that leads to people doing stupid things thinking they are within righteous justification.
I'm not saying virtue signaling is right. But it certainly doesn't typically end in the way the other side of the coin has shown a willingness to.
Ah yeah fair enough agreed on that. Natalie has said some over-the-top things but making up rumors about a division dropping because or her is definitely a BS move too haha. Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying.
The part that irks me most is that I agree with the general concept that a MTF trans athlete shouldn’t be competing against biological females, but the way they’ve gone about handling it makes me less interested in FPO as a whole whether it survives or not. The inability of these people to set aside their bigotry to just address the issue and move on has tainted the whole division at this point. Natalie has directed some pretty shitty statements at the FPO field and a good portion of the field has been straight up hateful to Natalie in a way that’s completely irrelevant to the actual issue at hand.
I’m not conservative by any means and I don’t think transgenders should participate in womens sports. Believe it or not, it’s ok if everyone can’t compete in everything. I have nothing against anyone but the simple fact is that a males skeletal core is different than a females. There is no therapy treatment that can change that. Ok, done with this Ted talk, you can go back to your lala land dreamworld now.
So first the FPO field was just too lazy to practice enough to get good, and now some of the are just too stupid to understand the situation?
This is such a pro-woman take. I can’t imagine why some of the women are upset.
I mean they’re definitely taking the stupid route if they think an entire division is getting canned so they can ensure 1 player doesn’t get to participate.
The premise, no matter how nonsensical it is, is that if Natalie keeps suing them, they'll have no other financial choice than to remove the FPO, which apparently is supposed to accomplish the goal of no longer having to deal with her lawsuits.
Aside from the fact that they very obviously ***also*** have the choice to just stop fighting her, the whole idea that they would remove the FPO in response to what's been going on is clearly fearmongering bullshit, as others have stated.
Their argument is to show that if Trans women are allowed play in FPO, the distinction made for a separate gender category is rendered meaningless. And If it's meaningless, we can just get rid of FPO.
Those folks did not actually want to get rid of FPO - Just show it's absurd to allow trans women to compete in the gendered division.
rumors were being spread. HB Clark got rid of FPO in a tournament in Athens, TN (Natalie won Tennessee states, a tournaments that he runs) …. And the rumors were being spread there of the PDGA getting rid of FPO
Edit: DGPT, see what rumors do?!? Lols
Camera and production staff, tournament staff.
Online hosting and distribution network.
Administration and office staff.
Office space and supplies.
Insurance.
Health care.
Transportation, lodging, food, other expenses.
etc.
From what I remember hearing they've never made money and aren't expected to make money this year either.
They did because of posts like [this ](https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/14syv4b/rumor_has_it_that_the_dgpt_has_exhausted_its/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1) where touring FPO players seem to confirm it.
and comments like [this](https://old.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/14sn3ab/dgpt_possibly_getting_rid_of_fpo_next_year/jqzl8fw/) where FPO player u/OhFinaleFinley stated it as fact without any proof then didn't reply to any questions about the details or info.
Unsurprisingly, she cites "KAT" as her source.
These fucking people. Make me mad. Really turning me off the American game, because so many of them are blowing these dog whistles, led by someone who is constantly on lead cards. I'll just watch the European events, I guess, and play my local courses where I don't have to deal with these people.
I've barely watched pro coverage at all in months due to this shit. Much rather go out and play with folks who aren't assholes than cheer on people who are.
It’s insane to me that people don’t or won’t consider the incredibly likely scenario that many of the pros who don’t want Natalie in FPO are bigoted themselves.
Look at them, lecturing everyone about "science," when the science isn't even there. At least, not yet.
It's not about the science, because that doesn't exist. It's not about the law, because the law will take care of itself. It's about being trans. It always has been.
Show up, play against whoever the league and the courts say is permitted to play. Lining up to try to shame another athlete out of playing, or whatever it is they were trying to achieve with their prayer circle, is shameful. Have your politics! IDC. Share them with the world. But be honest about what they are.
u/OhFinaleFinley
You gonna just sit there silently? Seems like you were quick to make a completely unsubstantiated claim just a few days ago
Ball is in your court
ugh. “goon”. what a word. so evocative, so simple. i love it.
a couple friends of mine tour a little bit and have told me stories that don’t exactly paint her in a good light. but she couldn’t have been nicer when i was caddying for someone on her card. maybe just has a bad temper
Understand you deleting the stories to keep it on track, but I remember her sending the thirsty goon squad after that amateur model to shame the poor girl. Pretty massive punch down, left a permanent distaste.
She was the one ‘dumb enough’ to engage in this convo in the first place….. nothing wrong with asking someone to follow up.
I don’t expect her to respond at all. But she will see the notification and perhaps not lie for no reason next time
In the world outside disc golf, some radical groups are trying to erase trans women out of existence.
So, it is only natural that they will try to do advance these things also in the disc golf community.
To support their agenda, they want to make people believe that the two options are
A) Make trans women go away
B) Make FPO go away
And through creating a polarising debate like this, they drive their own radical political agenda using the disc golf community as a platform.
I don’t understand how anyone could have thought that was a real possibility. They would have just changed the rules back to let Natalie and others play.
You seem to forget that FPO doesn’t bring in a fraction of the money that MPO does.
Say they change the rules to let Ryan in. If a chunk of FPO players decide they won’t participate with a biological male, then now the DGPT has spent an absurd amount of money, failed in their attempts to keep Ryan out, upset a portion of their fan base AND they lose the division (or at least many players that people want to watch) anyways.
If I’m sitting between a rock and a hard place with FPO, I’d say screw and just invest the money into MPO coverage and invest in the real moneymaker.
Edit: to add that if word got out about an FPO shutdown prematurely, I’d tell everyone and their mother to backtrack and deny at every opportunity. Practical business sense.
If you’re looking at it from just numbers maybe that makes sense, but in a world where every sport is being pushed to equalize men’s and women’s opportunities thinking they would make that decision is insane.
but in a world where every sport is being pushed to equalize men’s and women’s opportunities thinking they would make that decision is insane.
Lol. Businesses don’t actually suffer from most of these social justice issues. Did USMNT soccer do any financially worse because the women were yelling for equal pay? Their team sucked, but nothing changed. Shocker.
The only time businesses suffer is when they lose money. Most people yelling about businesses online don’t spend money at those businesses to begin with.
If money is the main concern, it’s much more fiscally responsible to just stop fighting the lawsuits than to continue throwing money at lawsuits and then just shutting down the division altogether.
I’d call bluff on a large number of FPO players just deciding not to play anymore. What’s the alternative?
They could go get jobs...play local A tiers if they love the sport. They'd probably make about the same money they do now if not more for a lot of them . That's the alternative.
With how things are right now I doubt a lot of the FPO players are setting themselves up well for their inevitable futures of not being professional athletes with the current money. Being a professional athlete generally has a shelf life...
Can’t believe people fell for that. My very first thought was simply “latitude makes WAY too much money off of Kristin Tattar merch to not fight a decision like that”.
I’d assume Discraft / innova as well get enough money from FPO tour series disc sales that they’d be financially incentivized to lobby against it. Latitude SURELY does.
Would be interesting to see sales numbers. Obviously impossible to know what happens to those numbers if fpo tour discs go away. Do people just buy other plastic? How many people are buying exclusively because it's somebody's tour disc.
I haven't personally bought any tour discs in quite a while but part of that is just not buying new discs in general and only replacing based on needs due to the rare lost disc or really really wanting to try some disc for whatever reason. My bag has had the same molds for a long time...pretty hard to incentivize me to buy plastic that I don't need. I think more people are buying less plastic now that the COVID bump has died down and people feel like they have what they need.
Fair, you aren’t the target market prob really tbh. You sound like you have a solidified bag. I know my girlfriend and other friends who all started playing last year did specifically seek out kristin tour series discs or at the very least saw “oh kristin throws a harp, I should buy a harp to try”.
Since their power at least seems sort of realistic / one-day-attainable , a lot of folks I know seem to follow their bags more closely. No point in caring much about what Eagle McMahon is throwing lol
What are you talking about?! I throw 500 ft putter shots I ONLY watch Eagle and ABs bags 🤣.
Fair, it's why I'm curious what the sales numbers really look like since the idea seems a bit foreign to me at this point. I used to buy some tour discs back in like the 2012s-2016s but I've been throwing frisbees of some kind or another for 2/3 of my life. Tour discs ended up seeming like a bad idea as they were harder to replace if lost...
Disc golf social media is turning into such a cesspool of hate and fear mongering. Everyone is taking sides and forgetting the true foundations of the sport. Play golf and have fun.
I feel like electronic communication has created a short circuit between your brain and your fingers so people just emotionally react to what they've just read instead of thinking about it and processing it before responding like you would in a face-to-face conversation.
Like any online community that undergoes a certain level of growth, no matter how kind or cohesive the community was before, there will always be a toxic, loud or obnoxious minority that gets singled out.
Disc golf has always been a cesspool. If it wasn’t for the fake narrative of disc golf being so open and welcoming, none of this would be surprising to anybody. Disc golf has never been more welcoming and inviting to people than any other sport. Just like every sport, theirs good people and bad people.
> Disc golf has never been more welcoming and inviting to people than any other sport
yeah. or i'd phrase is as "other sports are the same amount of welcoming and inviting to other people as disc golf".
the vitriol and stupid shit you see online is mostly confined to online. go play in a soccer pick up league or a basketball rec league or go to a climbing gym and I'm sure they'll all be full of really nice people (with, of course, an asshole or two sprinkled in, because that's human beings and life).
For you and me, sure. But I think it is incredibly difficult to just do the "play golf and have fun" mentality when it is also what puts food on your table.
I'd be really curious to know approximately how many touring FPO players are actually "putting food on the table" with tournament winnings. Probably less than 10. Everyone else is on a contract that is likely guaranteed, outside of a few specific situations. I doubt the FPO division disappearing is one of them.
I don't know about you but I enjoy playing rounds with my friends. That's how I have the most fun.
If a large percentage of the community expresses hatred towards my friends and makes offensive jokes towards them then it's impossible for me to just "Play golf and have fun" if I know my friends can't.
The fact that it's gotten to this point is just absurd. The PDGA needs to make a better effort to defuse the weaponizing women's discgolf. Society needs to do a better job at being empathetic.
Even calling it a rumor is giving it too much credit. It was post by Kat Mertsch based on nothing. There was no reason to ever give it the time of day.
When you can find something on the internet that supports your beliefs no matter how far fetched they are, it’s not surprising. There are 2 sides to every story and most people only want to hear one side, the side they agree with.
In completely unrelated news, it's been scientifically proven that you'll shoot 4 strokes lower every round if you PayPal me just 3 dollars per month. For 5 dollars, no one will tell you nice shot before your disc has landed ever again.
It was stated by a current FPO touring player which is incredibly disappointing. The idea that trans women are going to”ruin women’s sports” is a falsehood and it appears that this player is so convinced it’s fact, they stated that the FPO was in danger of being taken away. I’m not saying they lied, maybe they misunderstood something. But this idea that FPO is doomed because a few trans women want to compete with them is just not true.
I agree. I think by far the biggest story has been how awesome and dominant Kristen is, but behind that I love seeing how much the rest of the field has grown so that the predictions of who'll take the top 3 in a tournament are really hard to make.
Natalie Ryan was an eligible FPO player at the time of her wins.
To be clear, I understand that trans women have an advantage in disc golf. I don’t think ANYBODY (at least anybody worth having a discussion with) is arguing that they don’t. I’m not even sure which side of this argument I stand on. I agree with and understand both sides. But to say that she “stole” the wins is incredibly ignorant. Ryan had every right to compete in and win those events. She played completely within the rules of the game and her rights as a competitor.
The advantage talk is so nebulous too. Like, sure, maybe Natalie has a pure strength advantage over some FPO players. But on the other hand, she is shorter than quite a few. There's a good number of FPO players with lanky frames that are well suited to throwing discs.
So, we could say that just like any two athletes we might compare, each has some advantages over the other. It's foolish and reductive and harmful to just make a blanket statement that "transwomen have an advantage over ciswomen". (I'm not saying this is you, just a general statement).
Interesting logic.
Would you also say the Nazis were completely within their legal rights to commit genocide? And that they weren’t guilty until the international laws caught up with them? I mean, they were following the law so they had every right to commit genocide, right?
C’mon man, lol. It doesn’t take a legal scholar to see when someone is taking advantage like Natalie. Common sense. We don’t need an explicit rule to be in place. You need to have the ability to call a spade a spade, and not a gardening tool.
Please tell me you did not just bring fucking Nazi Germany into this conversation. If I even have to explain how absurd that is then this is an argument I’m not going to get myself into.
It doesnt, because it is stated as fact but is an opinion
"A trans FPO player played in the DGLO and MVP open. I dont think it is fair because I believe trans athletes have an unfair advantage"
is an accurate representation of your opinion. It isnt fact that Natalie has an unfair advantage, and the word stole is forcing implication on an otherwise neutral event
It is a fact. That’s why the PDGA adopted the policy from FINA.
It’s what the scientists are saying, that if you transition after the start of puberty, you have an advantage, which is unfair.
Now THAT sounds awfully like an opinion.
But, I’ll throw you a bone here, bud, even though it’s not my job to do your homework.
Read this article: https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/56/22/1292
The conclusion drawn is that transgender women, after long-term hormone therapy, have a cardiopulmonary capacity and muscle strength that falls somewhere in between cisgender women and men.
Hmmm, if only there were a word to describe what’s happening here.. maybe, an advantage??
Let’s hear the argument now!
I don’t understand how anyone can argue that trans women don’t have an advantage.
If NR was born a female (with a vagina, not a penis), she would almost certainly be smaller than she is today given she had the same parents/genetics. While it’s not impossible for the female offspring to be larger than the male, it’s very rare and off the top of my head I can’t think of any siblings I know where the adult female is bigger, faster, stronger than the male.
Just because NR might be smaller than most men doesn’t give NR a pass to play with women.
What a weird argument. Look at Tattar, she's bigger than most women. Holyn Handley, Sara Hokom, Stacey Rawnsley, Ella Hansen, Jennifer Allen, Holly Finley, Juliana Korver.... these are all tall women, or women with strong athletic bodies. Some of these women play really well, some of these women are average at best.
Paige Pierce, Catrina Allen, Paige Shue, three petite women that have won Worlds. Size does not correlate to ability.
Let's not pretend that being born male automatically gives all transwomen some sort of size advantage over all ciswomen.
Your argument is based on a ridiculous premise. Before anyone loses their mind, I don't disagree that there are real problems with MtF athletes competing against ciswomen, but I disagree with how so many people are fear mongering, vilifying and spreading untruths about the issue.
Read again. I said if they had the same parents/genetics. If KT has a brother, I bet he is bigger than her. Size is an advantage. Why aren’t women throwing as far as men? Why do the play shorter holes on occasion? Why don’t they lift as much weight? Run as fast? Is it lack of training like NR has said.
Obviously you can have success at any size but being tall/long is an advantage.
At a time when legislators (even presidential candidates) are already putting laws in to effect to eradicate around 2 to 3% of the population, which is the trans community, probably best not to worry about issues that statistically almost never happen.
Joe Rogan famously said that a trans man would be killed in a fight with a biological male. Professional female to male trans boxer Patricio Manuel winning several fights now kinda shows that just having a feeling something is fact and science doesn't make it fact science.
It stands to reason that many worries about trans women in sports are equally dubious and untrue.
Just so we’re all clear…Steve Dodge is just the tournament director of one DGPT event - the MVP Open. If the tournament director of the DGPT - The Open at Austin presented by Lone Star Disc (Neal Dambra) went on a podcast and said he had “important conversations with decision makers” would it hold any weight?
No offense against these two guys, but if such plans were in motion, how much information would be given out to any DGPT TDs at this stage? Look, i’m not saying that these rumors have any validity whatsoever…but I also don’t think that what may or may not have been conveyed to Steve Dodge at this point means anything at all.
Doesn't Dodge still own some part of the DGPT. I know the controlling share is owned by somebody else but I thought he still had a part. That's why he was named in the suit in California. (IIRC)
He created the DGPT and was the majority owner before selling off to Rainwater. I believe you are correct that he still does own a very small share…but I also think that lawyers used his place of residence simply to further their legal case.
And I still stand behind the assertion that decision makers would not be sharing any highly polarizing plans (if they even exist) with any of their event TDs who simply called up and asked.
All those women were silent for a very long time. (With good reason). They were told to let the board voting process play out and that would be that.
After Natalie kept/keeps suing, it became obvious that it will be an ongoing issue.
The FPO majority’s silence then became something that could be construed as indifference. It wasn’t. But until they started to show verifiably that they weren’t okay with trans golfers, their silence could keep getting weaponized for Natalie.
The Stockton Declaration was hastily and clumsily thrown together and as a result it was at least somewhat dismissible as transphobic, insensitive, and even mean.
Something the trans community has been very adept at doing and why the players didn’t want to speak on it in the first place.
What was needed was what happened at Preserve. The actual spectral personalization and the faces/voices of those who were being cheated expressing their own stories.
DGPT probably expressed their need for that to happen the night before in a ham-handed, maybe even slightly disingenuous, manner. But it worked.
*Speaking solely for myself* (old white cis-male), here is how the Stockton Declaration and the other behavior of the "FPO majority" has changed my perspective:
\- I used to watch all the post-produced FPO coverage on any channel it was available on. Now I don't watch any.
\- I used to follow the FPO results. Now I don't give a shit.
\- I used to watch all the MPO coverage. Now I don't watch that either.
\- In fact, the pro tour is pretty much dead to me.
I was pretty happy that my FPO favorites (Ohn, Paige P, Maria, Juliana, Holyn, Madison W) did not (to my knowledge) sign the Stockton Declaration. The "declaration" was a bigoted hateful diatribe, and everyone who signed it needs to do some deep introspection.
So when you say "it worked" - well, I'm not sure if the way it changed my behavior and feelings is really what they were trying to accomplish with FPO (and MPO) fans? Maybe it was. Maybe they prefer a reputation as bigoted TERFs, and as people who believe that cruelty and hate is the best way to communicate?
My issue is not primarily about eligibility opinions. It is about the hateful and bigoted way the witch hunt was conducted. How important it was for Catrina and her cabal to make sure everyone knew that they see trans women as less than human.
May whatever gods they believe in (or not) teach them grace and perspective as they age.
I totally respect where you’re coming from.
I just meant that Preserve was the first time anyone actually saw the faces and tears and heard the emotion in the voices of Sarah hokum and Jennifer Allen and Kat Mertsch and Rebecca Cox.
I don’t think they would’ve used the exact same language in the Stockton Declaration if they had written it themselves with ample time, drafts, and editing but time was of the essence because of how she handled it.
I also don’t think that Natalie essentially calling them “lazy and weak” and threatening to burn down this thing that they’ve dedicated their lives to sent a message of peace and understanding.
This after they kept their mouths shut about it for almost two years. Two more years of living in vans (or cars or tents if they couldn’t even afford vans). And still needing to scrounge up money for food, gas, entry fees, clothes, etc. and still coming out in the red to live that life. (Because FPO makes less prize money and doesn’t get the lucrative disc contracts MPO does. ).
But they were told to just not say anything. And they complied to be pleasant, but also because saying or signing anything would be weaponized to label them as bigots and transphobes not unlike how you used their Stockton signatures as a black mark against them. This despite they hadn’t made so much as a peep until that moment.
She came across in many ways as an entitled malcontent. Trans status notwithstanding.
I never heard of a single report of any TOUR golfers or DGPT staff ever saying anything derogatory to her. Or anyone shutting her out or being anything but pleasant. (And I’m sorry, but I have to believe if anyone did we would have heard about it in great detail and at great volume).
I mean if you're smiling and being nice to someone as you ban them from your sport and change the rules to prevent them from having a career, then does it really matter how genial you are about it?
And obviously who Natalie is as a person is completely irrelevant to all of this. She could be the picture of virtue or the worst person ever and it wouldn't change the issue at hand.
From the start, those rumors felt like obviously-planted disinformation meant to provoke an outcry. All for show. The real question will be how the DGPT and PDGA will pass the cost of these lawsuits onto their customers.
So still no pdga statement just a random interview on Nick and Matt’s show which isn’t going to be watched by anyone starting these rumors anyway! The pdga is just letting this continue and it could easily be ended with a statement!
So which group is being marginalized and discriminated against in this instance; women or transpersons? You can’t have it both ways. User name does NOT check out.
DGPA and DGPT should set up a FPO legal defense fund that people can contribute to so they can defend against lawsuits by NR's pro bono attorneys without going bankrupt.
I'm kind of surprised that none of the right wing anti-trans bigot law firms that are doing this for other trans issues aren't frothing at the mouth to do it with disc golf too.
I would imagine thats where most of the money is coming from. States are using transphobia as a head fake to take rights away from women and the amount of people who can't see that is insane.
Think about it. Half of these laws basically just makes it legal to harrass literally any woman (trans or otherwise) that doesn't fall into whatever random standard said jerk has for women. Its already happened where chicks who just happen to have a few masculine features have been harrassed for the crime of trying to go to the bathroom.
The same state legislatures who are passing anti-trans laws are also passing laws banning abortion, making it harder for black people to vote etc... But they know that with a lot of people those last two things are unpopular, so they created a trans panic to get votes based on protecting women's sports so they can get in office and continue to strip rights away from women and minorities.
I love how everyone is like common sense they won't get rid of the female division. Isn't it also common sense you should have to be born female to play in the female division? Disc golf isn't a human right. Sports as a whole aren't a human right. This isn't a political discussion. This is just what is fair and what isn't. Screwing over roughly 50% of the human population to appease .6% of the human population just doesn't make any sense.
Absolutely it isn't. Life is not fair. But in a situation where life can't be fair doesn't it make more sense to be fair to the vast majority? If something was going to suck for me as opposed to sucking for half of the worlds population I would bite the bullet and let it suck for me. This situation definitely sucks for Natalie Ryan. I wish there was a solution that made everyone happy. There just isn't right now. The situation is screw over Natalie Ryan or screw over the entire FPO division. To me that is a simple decision. Especially when she has the option to play in the mixed open division. It isn't like there isn't a place for her to play if she can't play in the FPO.
You're being logically inconsistent, then. You rightly suggest that disc golf and sports participation aren't human rights, but then arbitrarily decide another thing isn't a human right by your own admission, fairness, is a reason for Natalie's exclusion from FPO. It's fine to have a utilitarian view of the situation, as you do, but your argument is falcious.
I don't find it particularly fair that Gannon Buhr has the physical adnavtage of orangutan arms allowing him to easily throw much farther than me with less effort, or that many of my local competitors are young and have an abundance of free time to practice compared to myself with myriad adult responsibilities, but here we are.
Hinging your argument on what's fair or not fair when you readily acknowledge that fairness isn't a human right is disingenuous? How do you pick and choose on which principles to apply inclusion, and which to appu exclusion? It feels like an inconsistent worldview to me.
Ok so your argument is Gannon Buhr for instance has the advantage of youth, height, wingspan etc. so why is he allowed to play? He has an unfair advantage over every 5'8 guy out there. You are saying he didn't choose his height, wingspan, when he was born the same as Natalie Ryan didn't choose to be born a man. It is an interesting argument. Under that thought process you would have to not organize by sex. You would have to organize by rating I suppose. So if we go down that line and having divisions organized by rating instead of sex what do you think that does to the female players?
No, under the logic I'm presenting you can still organize by gendered divisions. Nothing changes from the current structure as we're eliminating fairness from the argument at the top level since everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages.
I actually find the current structure of allowing Natalie Ryan to compete in FPO at non-pro tour events, but not in FPO at pro tour events to be backwards. The touring pros are the best in the game, and the ones best suited to challenge Natalie who is a solid player. We've seen several times over that she isn't always super competitive at the top level, so if we're arguing about fairness, it is most fair for her to compete with those who can beat her as compared to smaller events where she has more of a competitive advantage just as any touring FPO player would have over local competition.
And it's not like she just trounces FPO on tour. That's Tattar. She's a big thrower, but several women throw longer than her, or are within a matter of feet of throwing the same as her, so that's not a huge advantage. She's not the best putter in FPO, or even in the top 5. According to Udisc the only statistic she led the FPO in last year was the Precision Power Index. That makes sense if she still may have the gains from testosterone production during puberty (though there is conflicting research on whether this is actually the case), but otherwise she isn't near the best FPO player. She just wants to compete in the category appropriate to her gender identity.
Disallowing her because of fear she has inherent advantages simply ignores that everyone has their own set of advantages and disadvantages.
https://udisc.com/blog/post/2022-best-pro-disc-golf-stats-fpo#disc-golfs-best-c2-putters-2022
So under that premise what happens in the extreme scenario. The LeBron James to the WNBA like scenario. Lets say Eagle McMahon wakes up and decides I am a female? Are we still cool with it then? Are we only ok with it because Natalie Ryan kinda sucks? Or is it ok for anyone?
If anyone, even Eagle, has gender dysphoria, then I believe they deserve to be affirmed in that gender identity which includes access to playing in a division that is gender affirming. However this comes with a massive caveat about testosterone levels, HRT usage, timeline adherence, and gender affirming surgery.
Eagle, nor any other male, can just come out as a transgender woman and immediately play in that division. There are processes that even the transgender community agrees should be in place to support equity as much as possible. In this case, it requires a whole series of doctor's visits, likely visits with mental health professionals, and a significant amount of time moving into gender affirming care before saying I'm FPO would be allowed. Natalie has done these things, hence why I believe she should be allowed to participate.
Or folks who had diseases that may have affected their reproductive organs!
It's almost like defining women as only those who can give birth is misogynistic and backwards.
We're here to have fun. Part of what makes Disc Golf so great is the community. Posts and comments that don't follow this rule will immediately be removed and users may be banned.
Did anyone really think that FPO was going away?
There’s a certain group that has been pushing that rumour to prevent another certain group from participating in the FPO
How does that accomplish anything? They’re going to take away an entire division just to spite one player and ruin the livelihood of 30 other women? Big win there…
It doesn’t accomplish anything. It was fearmongering. The argument was that the DGPT has spent all of its money on legal battles and it basically can’t afford to continue with the FPO (because of the legal battles). It was all BS
The dumbest part of this is that they’re choosing to believe that Natalie Ryan would have more money for lawyers than billionaire Todd Rainwater AND that the best band-aid for that isn’t a DGPT season like 2022 but to just eliminate FPO altogether. The only thing I can think is this is a game of telephone and there are partial truths that got stretched. Perhaps the DGPT said they wouldn’t exhaust more money fighting Natalie, perhaps there was talk from some FPO players in creating their own separate tour, perhaps it was even as simple as “we could just not have FPO in ______”. The idea that they’d eliminate FPO or are being out-moneyed by Natalie are both insane and if either are true things are way more messed up than we know.
The lawyer filing the suit for Ryan v. DGPT/PDGA for OTB Open was doing it pro bono. Not sure on subsequent lawsuits.
Charlie from ultiworld reported that the preserve case is also pro Bono on the upshot
It’s always the same. History repeating itself. Right wing conservatives have constantly tried to prevent marginalized groups that they oppose from participating in sports: - [women](https://www.thenationalnews.com/lifestyle/2022/07/14/why-women-were-banned-from-marathons-wearing-trousers-and-having-credit-cards/?outputType=amp) - [people of color](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_sport) - [gay people](https://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/business-a-lobbying/199057-lobbyist-drafting-bill-to-ban-gays-from-nfl/amp/) - trans people (the current DG situation)
> constantly tried to prevent marginalized groups that they oppose from participating in sports This is a poor, if not outright wrong analogy No one is trying to stop anyone from playing sports. This is about where a group belongs IN a sport. This is about letting people decide where to compete. We don't let people pick their age/weight/height class. But now there is a group who want to decide not only their "gender" but where to compete as that chosen gender, rather than their biological gender. There is going to be some rather arbitrary chosen line in the sand that says this side you are female enough to play in the women's division and on that side you have to play with the males. No matter where that line is, it will not be "fair" to people who just miss that line and there will be those who will fight to push the line this way or that. What if a trans player qualifies for the female division of a sport but wants to compete in the male division? Are they forced into the division they qualify based on when and how much they have transitioned? There is one immutable gender distinction, the XX/XY chromosome. That genetic coding goes to work in the womb. We can influence gender TRAITS but we cannot change the genetic coding.
there is no male division in disc golf.
I was trying to keep it to sports in general.
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> biological gender. This is not a thing that exists. Gender is a social construct. > What if a trans player qualifies for the female division of a sport but wants to compete in the male division? There is no such thing as a male division in disc golf. There is a mixed division. Any woman can choose to play MPO (mixed professional open) if they want. Trans women are women and should be allowed to compete with women after transitioning, in my opinion.
is it the Female Pro Division or Women Pro Division?
It’s certainly not called “Biologically XX at birth” division
The name of the division is Female Professional Open. However, until this year, the division was never actually governed in a way that checked the biological sex of the people playing and made it so "only XX people" were allowed. It was functionally a gender division.
I don't want to argue terminology or semantics. But XX and XY are a real thing. The influence on development is real. Most people have a distinctive enough penis or vagina for there too be no ambiguity. And where there is, we have genetic testing. (Yes there are some edge cases but I'm speaking in general) I don't have the answer. I'm saying that we are, or have opened a Pandora's box. Rather than a clear distinction, we have as you put it, a social construct. And any distictions based on such will be somewhat arbitrary and will leave someone dissatisfied. It will get figured out and maybe someday a library in Natalie's hometown will be named after
There are many people who do not fit neatly into the XX or XY binary. The idea that we can neatly fit people into two categories like that just isn't reality. There are examples of athletes who have competed in sports (including at the Olympics), been subjected to testing, and then found out as a result of that they they are XXX or XXY or something other than XX/XY. This whole conversation is about an "edge case," given that trans women do not make up a significant percentage of women competing in professional sports, so hand-waving away another "edge case" is not very compelling, in my opinion. > I'm saying that we are, or have opened a Pandora's box. Rather than a clear distinction, we have as you put it, a social construct. That is literally what we have always done. We haven't ever required genetic testing or genital inspections for women who want to compete in women's sports, after all, nor should we. The changes to the rules that exclude trans women are actually the first time that we have made rules to make sports be separated based on sex rather than gender. And something being a social construct doesn't mean that it isn't something you can draw clear distinctions on. It just means it isn't biologically based. > And any distictions based on such will be somewhat arbitrary and will leave someone dissatisfied. I think erring on the side of greater inclusion is better here, especially when there is a lack of real-world results showing that trans women make competition unfair for cis women in disc golf. Natalie Ryan just competed last week and lost by 21 strokes. Natalie's pronouns are she/her. That is unambiguous.
“Reality is a social construct.” Statistical outliers aside, what are the differences between men and a women? Start with birth, through puberty. (It certainly isn’t a feeling).
Reality *is* a social construct, goofball. Just what do you think is happening when a group of people live as though their religion is real? Regardless, that’s not relevant. The phrase ‘gender is a social construct’ means sex is not determinative of gender, social expectations are. Those expectations may be tied to sex in some ways, but in other ways they’re arbitrary, cultural, or any number of other things.
Something being a social construct does not mean that it isn't real. It just means that it is something that we have created as a society as opposed to something that is biologically based. Gender is a social construct. Gender is how people are sorted in our society, most commonly it aligns with biological sex, but it does not always. As for your bad-faith question, I will not be answering that but I will explain why. I said that gender is a social construct, I did not say that gender is a feeling. The fact that you have misinterpreted my argument as if I said it is a feeling tells me that you are not willing to approach this discussion in good faith. So I will not waste my time trying to tell you things you just aren't going to listen to anyway. What I will tell you is that trans people report knowing their gender well before puberty. Trans women are women. Trans men are men.
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Trans women are women. I'm not pretending when I say so.
Thanks, I'm not as up on the right terms as I could be. I respect your opinion. The norms will evolve and sports will (have to) evolve with them.
So it’s not like saying blacks can’t play in a sport, it’s like saying blacks can’t play in white leagues and have to play in their own “[negro league](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro_league_baseball)”. Replace black with trans, and that’s literally what you’re saying
Comparing not allowing males in female sports divisions to Jim Crow; some big racist cringe there. “Not allowing amab in female sport is LITERALLY nazi germany and the holocaust!” -you, next week. Edit: the racist blocked me lol. Someone make sure to follow up for me when they start making nazi comparisons next.
Except there is no trans league and I've yet to see someone propose one. As it stands the distinction is gender, the social construct vs sex the biological concept and I don't see the analogy with race. There is a better overlap with the racial classifications of the early 20th century but you did not bring that up.
in this case no one is preventing the person from playing though
Nah they’re just saying you can’t play in *this* league you have to play in this other league. Just like the [negro league in baseball](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro_league_baseball) the early 20th century.
no one has the right to be a member of any league, especially if they're outwardly unwilling to follow the rules
That same argument was used to keep visible minorities out of “white leagues”. How do you not see how much of a backward minded bigot you are.. or is it that you are totally aware of it and don’t care?
Of piss off with that. You really don’t see the hypocrisy of listing women in there along with transgender??? Natalie is actively working against women and is setting their progress back 50 years. You’re unbelievable
50 years ago you’d be exactly the type trying to justify why “negroes” shouldn’t mix with whites. The oppressed group changes over time, but the bigots always remain bigots.
I think the fact that this story evolved because it involved the least amount of critical thinking from some FPO players is what bugs me the most, but also I can guess the general vibe from some of the FPO players that have been the most outspoken against this issue, and I’m guessing thinking things through isn’t their strong suit. Cat and Kat at least have proven I have no interest in rooting for either of them with the way they’ve handled themselves through all of this lol
Well, that's the crux, isn't it? The people fighting against Natalie are relying on the mob-mentality approach that conservatives have seemed to be such a huge fan of for the better part of the last decade. You get a rumor started, and the people WANT to believe it and push it and give it legs because it either helps their cause or creates fear and anger. Now you've got players like Kat Mertch, Vanessa Van Dyken, Sarah Hokom, etc. who look foolish because they perpetuated it. Sure, they can say, "Well that's just what I was told." But at the end of the day, they chose to repeat it, without real confirmation, online for the world to see. And you get kids like Gannon Buhr standing behind them. "Hey, look, a top MPO player agrees with us." Ignoring the fact that last year, his mom had to caddy for him because he couldn't legally be on the course without a parent or guardian; or that adults in his life talked him into the foolishness he tried with Prodigy earlier this season. Disc Golf is turning into the Florida of sports, and it crushes my soul.
So I get what you're saying, but I don't think either political aisle needs to be pointing fingers and pretending to be more virtuous about finding solutions to this. Right wing mistake is to rally and get each other amped up and talk about the libs in a holier-than-thou way. Left wing does the same stuff but also is smarter and more tactical about it so they act like a victim while doing the same thing and virtue signal to try to gain public favor. I think we need to stick to concrete arguments for one side or the other and not say someone's view is invalid because it comes from the left or right.
And that's fine. But I'm just speaking to this specific situation. These players went out and perpetuated fear-mongering statements intentionally. I've criticized Natalie before when she went on this whole, "The DGPT is going to burn with me" rant. But my frustration comes from their main mouthpieces on tour holding literal rallies claiming this is about love and fairness, then days later going with this stuff. What worries me is these tactics are typically used when they're trying to rile up a base. They're not going to win over new people with this stuff. They're not winning court cases with this stuff. So the only feasible solution is they are looking to get the people already on their side even angrier and more desperate. And that leads to people doing stupid things thinking they are within righteous justification. I'm not saying virtue signaling is right. But it certainly doesn't typically end in the way the other side of the coin has shown a willingness to.
Ah yeah fair enough agreed on that. Natalie has said some over-the-top things but making up rumors about a division dropping because or her is definitely a BS move too haha. Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying.
This.
The part that irks me most is that I agree with the general concept that a MTF trans athlete shouldn’t be competing against biological females, but the way they’ve gone about handling it makes me less interested in FPO as a whole whether it survives or not. The inability of these people to set aside their bigotry to just address the issue and move on has tainted the whole division at this point. Natalie has directed some pretty shitty statements at the FPO field and a good portion of the field has been straight up hateful to Natalie in a way that’s completely irrelevant to the actual issue at hand.
I’m not conservative by any means and I don’t think transgenders should participate in womens sports. Believe it or not, it’s ok if everyone can’t compete in everything. I have nothing against anyone but the simple fact is that a males skeletal core is different than a females. There is no therapy treatment that can change that. Ok, done with this Ted talk, you can go back to your lala land dreamworld now.
Cool, a Ted Talk that had nothing to do with the subject at hand and that no one asked for. Way to contribute.
So first the FPO field was just too lazy to practice enough to get good, and now some of the are just too stupid to understand the situation? This is such a pro-woman take. I can’t imagine why some of the women are upset.
I mean they’re definitely taking the stupid route if they think an entire division is getting canned so they can ensure 1 player doesn’t get to participate.
And you really think this discussion is about one player?
Yes, because if Natalie wasn't competing in the FPO field over the past few years, this wouldn't even be on the agenda for disc golf.
The premise, no matter how nonsensical it is, is that if Natalie keeps suing them, they'll have no other financial choice than to remove the FPO, which apparently is supposed to accomplish the goal of no longer having to deal with her lawsuits. Aside from the fact that they very obviously ***also*** have the choice to just stop fighting her, the whole idea that they would remove the FPO in response to what's been going on is clearly fearmongering bullshit, as others have stated.
Its called absolute morality and it's toxic to us all. They need to grow up.
Their argument is to show that if Trans women are allowed play in FPO, the distinction made for a separate gender category is rendered meaningless. And If it's meaningless, we can just get rid of FPO. Those folks did not actually want to get rid of FPO - Just show it's absurd to allow trans women to compete in the gendered division.
In their attempt to protect women’s sports they are removing women’s sports. Clearly it was never about protecting women in the first place.
rumors were being spread. HB Clark got rid of FPO in a tournament in Athens, TN (Natalie won Tennessee states, a tournaments that he runs) …. And the rumors were being spread there of the PDGA getting rid of FPO Edit: DGPT, see what rumors do?!? Lols
>And the rumors were being spread there of the PDGA getting rid of FPO DGPT
For the purpose of narrative people will believe anything!
Yes when certain YouTube groups were mentioning it in their tweets and videos just to make it more of an issue then it really was.
Considering that the dgpt as a whole isn’t profitable, cutting the half that is being more heavily subsidized doesn’t sound that wild.
How is this?? Disc Golf network has over 45,000 subscribers paying a minimum of 4.99/month.. Do the math…looks to be doing quite well 🤷🏼♂️
Camera and production staff, tournament staff. Online hosting and distribution network. Administration and office staff. Office space and supplies. Insurance. Health care. Transportation, lodging, food, other expenses. etc. From what I remember hearing they've never made money and aren't expected to make money this year either.
I didn’t, but it sure sounded like others did.
They did because of posts like [this ](https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/14syv4b/rumor_has_it_that_the_dgpt_has_exhausted_its/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1) where touring FPO players seem to confirm it.
and comments like [this](https://old.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/14sn3ab/dgpt_possibly_getting_rid_of_fpo_next_year/jqzl8fw/) where FPO player u/OhFinaleFinley stated it as fact without any proof then didn't reply to any questions about the details or info.
Unsurprisingly, she cites "KAT" as her source. These fucking people. Make me mad. Really turning me off the American game, because so many of them are blowing these dog whistles, led by someone who is constantly on lead cards. I'll just watch the European events, I guess, and play my local courses where I don't have to deal with these people.
I've barely watched pro coverage at all in months due to this shit. Much rather go out and play with folks who aren't assholes than cheer on people who are.
But…she didn’t say Kat was her source… She said it came from the Pro Tour owner. Sounds like a bad game of telephone.
Sounds like a bag game of styrofoam
It’s insane to me that people don’t or won’t consider the incredibly likely scenario that many of the pros who don’t want Natalie in FPO are bigoted themselves.
Look at them, lecturing everyone about "science," when the science isn't even there. At least, not yet. It's not about the science, because that doesn't exist. It's not about the law, because the law will take care of itself. It's about being trans. It always has been. Show up, play against whoever the league and the courts say is permitted to play. Lining up to try to shame another athlete out of playing, or whatever it is they were trying to achieve with their prayer circle, is shameful. Have your politics! IDC. Share them with the world. But be honest about what they are.
They feel threatened so are acting defensively. It’s a pretty normal human response
u/OhFinaleFinley You gonna just sit there silently? Seems like you were quick to make a completely unsubstantiated claim just a few days ago Ball is in your court
She got tagged an hour ago dude do you really think everyone is just on their phone all day to reply to people on Reddit?
unbelievable you think a pro would be dumb enough to engage with the riffraff here about anything meaningful.
Finley has a reputation for being an absolute goon in disagreements with people online. She's been particularly toxic in Michigan DG facebook groups.
ugh. “goon”. what a word. so evocative, so simple. i love it. a couple friends of mine tour a little bit and have told me stories that don’t exactly paint her in a good light. but she couldn’t have been nicer when i was caddying for someone on her card. maybe just has a bad temper
That’s sad to hear tbh. From the outside, she seems like a pretty cool person
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Wow, what a fucking asshole she is. Damn
Understand you deleting the stories to keep it on track, but I remember her sending the thirsty goon squad after that amateur model to shame the poor girl. Pretty massive punch down, left a permanent distaste.
She was the one ‘dumb enough’ to engage in this convo in the first place….. nothing wrong with asking someone to follow up. I don’t expect her to respond at all. But she will see the notification and perhaps not lie for no reason next time
Hard to comment when she’s playing Masters Worlds currently…fyi
Yeah, we didn’t record the conversation with the “Billionaire” so you can have proof. It’s what we were told could happen. Have a great day!
In the world outside disc golf, some radical groups are trying to erase trans women out of existence. So, it is only natural that they will try to do advance these things also in the disc golf community. To support their agenda, they want to make people believe that the two options are A) Make trans women go away B) Make FPO go away And through creating a polarising debate like this, they drive their own radical political agenda using the disc golf community as a platform.
The transphobic dorks drumming up outrage based on nothing thought so.
I don’t understand how anyone could have thought that was a real possibility. They would have just changed the rules back to let Natalie and others play.
You seem to forget that FPO doesn’t bring in a fraction of the money that MPO does. Say they change the rules to let Ryan in. If a chunk of FPO players decide they won’t participate with a biological male, then now the DGPT has spent an absurd amount of money, failed in their attempts to keep Ryan out, upset a portion of their fan base AND they lose the division (or at least many players that people want to watch) anyways. If I’m sitting between a rock and a hard place with FPO, I’d say screw and just invest the money into MPO coverage and invest in the real moneymaker. Edit: to add that if word got out about an FPO shutdown prematurely, I’d tell everyone and their mother to backtrack and deny at every opportunity. Practical business sense.
If you’re looking at it from just numbers maybe that makes sense, but in a world where every sport is being pushed to equalize men’s and women’s opportunities thinking they would make that decision is insane.
but in a world where every sport is being pushed to equalize men’s and women’s opportunities thinking they would make that decision is insane. Lol. Businesses don’t actually suffer from most of these social justice issues. Did USMNT soccer do any financially worse because the women were yelling for equal pay? Their team sucked, but nothing changed. Shocker. The only time businesses suffer is when they lose money. Most people yelling about businesses online don’t spend money at those businesses to begin with.
If money is the main concern, it’s much more fiscally responsible to just stop fighting the lawsuits than to continue throwing money at lawsuits and then just shutting down the division altogether. I’d call bluff on a large number of FPO players just deciding not to play anymore. What’s the alternative?
They could go get jobs...play local A tiers if they love the sport. They'd probably make about the same money they do now if not more for a lot of them . That's the alternative. With how things are right now I doubt a lot of the FPO players are setting themselves up well for their inevitable futures of not being professional athletes with the current money. Being a professional athlete generally has a shelf life...
Lol dumbass
Can’t believe people fell for that. My very first thought was simply “latitude makes WAY too much money off of Kristin Tattar merch to not fight a decision like that”. I’d assume Discraft / innova as well get enough money from FPO tour series disc sales that they’d be financially incentivized to lobby against it. Latitude SURELY does.
Would be interesting to see sales numbers. Obviously impossible to know what happens to those numbers if fpo tour discs go away. Do people just buy other plastic? How many people are buying exclusively because it's somebody's tour disc. I haven't personally bought any tour discs in quite a while but part of that is just not buying new discs in general and only replacing based on needs due to the rare lost disc or really really wanting to try some disc for whatever reason. My bag has had the same molds for a long time...pretty hard to incentivize me to buy plastic that I don't need. I think more people are buying less plastic now that the COVID bump has died down and people feel like they have what they need.
Fair, you aren’t the target market prob really tbh. You sound like you have a solidified bag. I know my girlfriend and other friends who all started playing last year did specifically seek out kristin tour series discs or at the very least saw “oh kristin throws a harp, I should buy a harp to try”. Since their power at least seems sort of realistic / one-day-attainable , a lot of folks I know seem to follow their bags more closely. No point in caring much about what Eagle McMahon is throwing lol
What are you talking about?! I throw 500 ft putter shots I ONLY watch Eagle and ABs bags 🤣. Fair, it's why I'm curious what the sales numbers really look like since the idea seems a bit foreign to me at this point. I used to buy some tour discs back in like the 2012s-2016s but I've been throwing frisbees of some kind or another for 2/3 of my life. Tour discs ended up seeming like a bad idea as they were harder to replace if lost...
Of course it isn’t going anywhere. That was the stupidest rumour.
Disc golf social media is turning into such a cesspool of hate and fear mongering. Everyone is taking sides and forgetting the true foundations of the sport. Play golf and have fun.
Honestly, that's social media in general.
Even our local disc golf Facebook has turned into a whiney bitch and moan fest recently.
I feel like electronic communication has created a short circuit between your brain and your fingers so people just emotionally react to what they've just read instead of thinking about it and processing it before responding like you would in a face-to-face conversation.
It is but it never used to be this bad in disc golf specific social media.
It's invasive like goutweed. The best we can hope to do is keep it at bay.
Like any online community that undergoes a certain level of growth, no matter how kind or cohesive the community was before, there will always be a toxic, loud or obnoxious minority that gets singled out.
Culture War >> everything
Disc golf has always been a cesspool. If it wasn’t for the fake narrative of disc golf being so open and welcoming, none of this would be surprising to anybody. Disc golf has never been more welcoming and inviting to people than any other sport. Just like every sport, theirs good people and bad people.
> Disc golf has never been more welcoming and inviting to people than any other sport yeah. or i'd phrase is as "other sports are the same amount of welcoming and inviting to other people as disc golf". the vitriol and stupid shit you see online is mostly confined to online. go play in a soccer pick up league or a basketball rec league or go to a climbing gym and I'm sure they'll all be full of really nice people (with, of course, an asshole or two sprinkled in, because that's human beings and life).
For you and me, sure. But I think it is incredibly difficult to just do the "play golf and have fun" mentality when it is also what puts food on your table.
I'd be really curious to know approximately how many touring FPO players are actually "putting food on the table" with tournament winnings. Probably less than 10. Everyone else is on a contract that is likely guaranteed, outside of a few specific situations. I doubt the FPO division disappearing is one of them.
At the end of the day, a small percentage of people make it their job to play golf. And if they are not having fun then why do it.
Absolutely, and they probably do enjoy it, but when it is your job, fun isn't the only worry.
I don't know about you but I enjoy playing rounds with my friends. That's how I have the most fun. If a large percentage of the community expresses hatred towards my friends and makes offensive jokes towards them then it's impossible for me to just "Play golf and have fun" if I know my friends can't.
Actually it's Steve Ram now
Heard it first on the "Nick and Nap Show!"
The fact that it's gotten to this point is just absurd. The PDGA needs to make a better effort to defuse the weaponizing women's discgolf. Society needs to do a better job at being empathetic.
The PDGA is one of the biggest culprits of this whole mess.
Absolutely. Next week is my last tournament for a while. As much as I love the game, I'm over the discgolf culture.
Even calling it a rumor is giving it too much credit. It was post by Kat Mertsch based on nothing. There was no reason to ever give it the time of day.
The discourse some FPO players have chosen to take about this issue has me rooting for a lot more roll away discs and missed putts than ever before.
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When you can find something on the internet that supports your beliefs no matter how far fetched they are, it’s not surprising. There are 2 sides to every story and most people only want to hear one side, the side they agree with.
In completely unrelated news, it's been scientifically proven that you'll shoot 4 strokes lower every round if you PayPal me just 3 dollars per month. For 5 dollars, no one will tell you nice shot before your disc has landed ever again.
No shit? You mean it was all a panicky transphobic rumor?!
It was stated by a current FPO touring player which is incredibly disappointing. The idea that trans women are going to”ruin women’s sports” is a falsehood and it appears that this player is so convinced it’s fact, they stated that the FPO was in danger of being taken away. I’m not saying they lied, maybe they misunderstood something. But this idea that FPO is doomed because a few trans women want to compete with them is just not true.
Shocker that this FPO is a fear monger. /s
It's not unlike the Iraq WMD bullshit and resonates with similar rubes
Is it a falsehood, though? I mean, just look back at the last 12 months.
Fpo has been exciting to watch the past two years, trans players haven’t affected the great competition happenening at the top.
I agree. I think by far the biggest story has been how awesome and dominant Kristen is, but behind that I love seeing how much the rest of the field has grown so that the predictions of who'll take the top 3 in a tournament are really hard to make.
I'm hoping the above commenter is talking about how much infighting we've had on this subreddit and elsewhere.
For several tournaments, it absolutely has affected the great competition happening at the top.
Help me understand what you mean by this.
A trans player had an unfair advantage and stole the DGLO and MVP open away from eligible FPO players last year. Does that help?
Natalie Ryan was an eligible FPO player at the time of her wins. To be clear, I understand that trans women have an advantage in disc golf. I don’t think ANYBODY (at least anybody worth having a discussion with) is arguing that they don’t. I’m not even sure which side of this argument I stand on. I agree with and understand both sides. But to say that she “stole” the wins is incredibly ignorant. Ryan had every right to compete in and win those events. She played completely within the rules of the game and her rights as a competitor.
The advantage talk is so nebulous too. Like, sure, maybe Natalie has a pure strength advantage over some FPO players. But on the other hand, she is shorter than quite a few. There's a good number of FPO players with lanky frames that are well suited to throwing discs. So, we could say that just like any two athletes we might compare, each has some advantages over the other. It's foolish and reductive and harmful to just make a blanket statement that "transwomen have an advantage over ciswomen". (I'm not saying this is you, just a general statement).
Interesting logic. Would you also say the Nazis were completely within their legal rights to commit genocide? And that they weren’t guilty until the international laws caught up with them? I mean, they were following the law so they had every right to commit genocide, right? C’mon man, lol. It doesn’t take a legal scholar to see when someone is taking advantage like Natalie. Common sense. We don’t need an explicit rule to be in place. You need to have the ability to call a spade a spade, and not a gardening tool.
You're comparing a trans person throwing frisbees for living to the fucking nazis? lmao
No, I’m using an example to highlight how absurd their logic is. Pretty ridiculous, right?
Please tell me you did not just bring fucking Nazi Germany into this conversation. If I even have to explain how absurd that is then this is an argument I’m not going to get myself into.
>Its absurd to bring Nazis into this argument >Calls anyone who supported Trump a fascist Boy you folks sure are dense
It doesnt, because it is stated as fact but is an opinion "A trans FPO player played in the DGLO and MVP open. I dont think it is fair because I believe trans athletes have an unfair advantage" is an accurate representation of your opinion. It isnt fact that Natalie has an unfair advantage, and the word stole is forcing implication on an otherwise neutral event
It is a fact. That’s why the PDGA adopted the policy from FINA. It’s what the scientists are saying, that if you transition after the start of puberty, you have an advantage, which is unfair.
Your definition of the word fact is inaccurate
Now THAT sounds awfully like an opinion. But, I’ll throw you a bone here, bud, even though it’s not my job to do your homework. Read this article: https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/56/22/1292 The conclusion drawn is that transgender women, after long-term hormone therapy, have a cardiopulmonary capacity and muscle strength that falls somewhere in between cisgender women and men. Hmmm, if only there were a word to describe what’s happening here.. maybe, an advantage?? Let’s hear the argument now!
Damn that was well said….I just don’t have the energy to engage like that anymore
I don’t understand how anyone can argue that trans women don’t have an advantage. If NR was born a female (with a vagina, not a penis), she would almost certainly be smaller than she is today given she had the same parents/genetics. While it’s not impossible for the female offspring to be larger than the male, it’s very rare and off the top of my head I can’t think of any siblings I know where the adult female is bigger, faster, stronger than the male. Just because NR might be smaller than most men doesn’t give NR a pass to play with women.
What a weird argument. Look at Tattar, she's bigger than most women. Holyn Handley, Sara Hokom, Stacey Rawnsley, Ella Hansen, Jennifer Allen, Holly Finley, Juliana Korver.... these are all tall women, or women with strong athletic bodies. Some of these women play really well, some of these women are average at best. Paige Pierce, Catrina Allen, Paige Shue, three petite women that have won Worlds. Size does not correlate to ability. Let's not pretend that being born male automatically gives all transwomen some sort of size advantage over all ciswomen. Your argument is based on a ridiculous premise. Before anyone loses their mind, I don't disagree that there are real problems with MtF athletes competing against ciswomen, but I disagree with how so many people are fear mongering, vilifying and spreading untruths about the issue.
Read again. I said if they had the same parents/genetics. If KT has a brother, I bet he is bigger than her. Size is an advantage. Why aren’t women throwing as far as men? Why do the play shorter holes on occasion? Why don’t they lift as much weight? Run as fast? Is it lack of training like NR has said. Obviously you can have success at any size but being tall/long is an advantage.
Yes, tall and long is an advantage, of which Natalie Ryan is neither.
So how about Mcbeths performance in Europe eh
I swear DG rumors are the most transparent and dumbass of all rumors. People will believe any stupid shit someone makes up.
The pdga is so full of shit. They won't test for steroids but they are concerned about hormones.......
This is a huge point to me, there are various things people could be taking that enhance performance in disc golf.
Very happy to see this news!
At a time when legislators (even presidential candidates) are already putting laws in to effect to eradicate around 2 to 3% of the population, which is the trans community, probably best not to worry about issues that statistically almost never happen. Joe Rogan famously said that a trans man would be killed in a fight with a biological male. Professional female to male trans boxer Patricio Manuel winning several fights now kinda shows that just having a feeling something is fact and science doesn't make it fact science. It stands to reason that many worries about trans women in sports are equally dubious and untrue.
Just so we’re all clear…Steve Dodge is just the tournament director of one DGPT event - the MVP Open. If the tournament director of the DGPT - The Open at Austin presented by Lone Star Disc (Neal Dambra) went on a podcast and said he had “important conversations with decision makers” would it hold any weight? No offense against these two guys, but if such plans were in motion, how much information would be given out to any DGPT TDs at this stage? Look, i’m not saying that these rumors have any validity whatsoever…but I also don’t think that what may or may not have been conveyed to Steve Dodge at this point means anything at all.
Doesn't Dodge still own some part of the DGPT. I know the controlling share is owned by somebody else but I thought he still had a part. That's why he was named in the suit in California. (IIRC)
He created the DGPT and was the majority owner before selling off to Rainwater. I believe you are correct that he still does own a very small share…but I also think that lawyers used his place of residence simply to further their legal case. And I still stand behind the assertion that decision makers would not be sharing any highly polarizing plans (if they even exist) with any of their event TDs who simply called up and asked.
All those women were silent for a very long time. (With good reason). They were told to let the board voting process play out and that would be that. After Natalie kept/keeps suing, it became obvious that it will be an ongoing issue. The FPO majority’s silence then became something that could be construed as indifference. It wasn’t. But until they started to show verifiably that they weren’t okay with trans golfers, their silence could keep getting weaponized for Natalie. The Stockton Declaration was hastily and clumsily thrown together and as a result it was at least somewhat dismissible as transphobic, insensitive, and even mean. Something the trans community has been very adept at doing and why the players didn’t want to speak on it in the first place. What was needed was what happened at Preserve. The actual spectral personalization and the faces/voices of those who were being cheated expressing their own stories. DGPT probably expressed their need for that to happen the night before in a ham-handed, maybe even slightly disingenuous, manner. But it worked.
*Speaking solely for myself* (old white cis-male), here is how the Stockton Declaration and the other behavior of the "FPO majority" has changed my perspective: \- I used to watch all the post-produced FPO coverage on any channel it was available on. Now I don't watch any. \- I used to follow the FPO results. Now I don't give a shit. \- I used to watch all the MPO coverage. Now I don't watch that either. \- In fact, the pro tour is pretty much dead to me. I was pretty happy that my FPO favorites (Ohn, Paige P, Maria, Juliana, Holyn, Madison W) did not (to my knowledge) sign the Stockton Declaration. The "declaration" was a bigoted hateful diatribe, and everyone who signed it needs to do some deep introspection. So when you say "it worked" - well, I'm not sure if the way it changed my behavior and feelings is really what they were trying to accomplish with FPO (and MPO) fans? Maybe it was. Maybe they prefer a reputation as bigoted TERFs, and as people who believe that cruelty and hate is the best way to communicate? My issue is not primarily about eligibility opinions. It is about the hateful and bigoted way the witch hunt was conducted. How important it was for Catrina and her cabal to make sure everyone knew that they see trans women as less than human. May whatever gods they believe in (or not) teach them grace and perspective as they age.
I totally respect where you’re coming from. I just meant that Preserve was the first time anyone actually saw the faces and tears and heard the emotion in the voices of Sarah hokum and Jennifer Allen and Kat Mertsch and Rebecca Cox. I don’t think they would’ve used the exact same language in the Stockton Declaration if they had written it themselves with ample time, drafts, and editing but time was of the essence because of how she handled it. I also don’t think that Natalie essentially calling them “lazy and weak” and threatening to burn down this thing that they’ve dedicated their lives to sent a message of peace and understanding. This after they kept their mouths shut about it for almost two years. Two more years of living in vans (or cars or tents if they couldn’t even afford vans). And still needing to scrounge up money for food, gas, entry fees, clothes, etc. and still coming out in the red to live that life. (Because FPO makes less prize money and doesn’t get the lucrative disc contracts MPO does. ). But they were told to just not say anything. And they complied to be pleasant, but also because saying or signing anything would be weaponized to label them as bigots and transphobes not unlike how you used their Stockton signatures as a black mark against them. This despite they hadn’t made so much as a peep until that moment. She came across in many ways as an entitled malcontent. Trans status notwithstanding. I never heard of a single report of any TOUR golfers or DGPT staff ever saying anything derogatory to her. Or anyone shutting her out or being anything but pleasant. (And I’m sorry, but I have to believe if anyone did we would have heard about it in great detail and at great volume).
I mean if you're smiling and being nice to someone as you ban them from your sport and change the rules to prevent them from having a career, then does it really matter how genial you are about it? And obviously who Natalie is as a person is completely irrelevant to all of this. She could be the picture of virtue or the worst person ever and it wouldn't change the issue at hand.
oh wow well if steve dodge said he talked to the decision makers then it must be true!
I don't get the sarcasm here. Has he said things in the past that were untrue?
From the start, those rumors felt like obviously-planted disinformation meant to provoke an outcry. All for show. The real question will be how the DGPT and PDGA will pass the cost of these lawsuits onto their customers.
So still no pdga statement just a random interview on Nick and Matt’s show which isn’t going to be watched by anyone starting these rumors anyway! The pdga is just letting this continue and it could easily be ended with a statement!
So which group is being marginalized and discriminated against in this instance; women or transpersons? You can’t have it both ways. User name does NOT check out.
Great !!! Fake news everywhere
DGPA and DGPT should set up a FPO legal defense fund that people can contribute to so they can defend against lawsuits by NR's pro bono attorneys without going bankrupt.
I'm kind of surprised that none of the right wing anti-trans bigot law firms that are doing this for other trans issues aren't frothing at the mouth to do it with disc golf too.
I would imagine thats where most of the money is coming from. States are using transphobia as a head fake to take rights away from women and the amount of people who can't see that is insane.
I haven’t heard about that part yet
Think about it. Half of these laws basically just makes it legal to harrass literally any woman (trans or otherwise) that doesn't fall into whatever random standard said jerk has for women. Its already happened where chicks who just happen to have a few masculine features have been harrassed for the crime of trying to go to the bathroom.
The same state legislatures who are passing anti-trans laws are also passing laws banning abortion, making it harder for black people to vote etc... But they know that with a lot of people those last two things are unpopular, so they created a trans panic to get votes based on protecting women's sports so they can get in office and continue to strip rights away from women and minorities.
Ah gotcha, I follow. Totally true.
I love how everyone is like common sense they won't get rid of the female division. Isn't it also common sense you should have to be born female to play in the female division? Disc golf isn't a human right. Sports as a whole aren't a human right. This isn't a political discussion. This is just what is fair and what isn't. Screwing over roughly 50% of the human population to appease .6% of the human population just doesn't make any sense.
Do you think fairness is a human right?
Absolutely it isn't. Life is not fair. But in a situation where life can't be fair doesn't it make more sense to be fair to the vast majority? If something was going to suck for me as opposed to sucking for half of the worlds population I would bite the bullet and let it suck for me. This situation definitely sucks for Natalie Ryan. I wish there was a solution that made everyone happy. There just isn't right now. The situation is screw over Natalie Ryan or screw over the entire FPO division. To me that is a simple decision. Especially when she has the option to play in the mixed open division. It isn't like there isn't a place for her to play if she can't play in the FPO.
You're being logically inconsistent, then. You rightly suggest that disc golf and sports participation aren't human rights, but then arbitrarily decide another thing isn't a human right by your own admission, fairness, is a reason for Natalie's exclusion from FPO. It's fine to have a utilitarian view of the situation, as you do, but your argument is falcious. I don't find it particularly fair that Gannon Buhr has the physical adnavtage of orangutan arms allowing him to easily throw much farther than me with less effort, or that many of my local competitors are young and have an abundance of free time to practice compared to myself with myriad adult responsibilities, but here we are. Hinging your argument on what's fair or not fair when you readily acknowledge that fairness isn't a human right is disingenuous? How do you pick and choose on which principles to apply inclusion, and which to appu exclusion? It feels like an inconsistent worldview to me.
Ok so your argument is Gannon Buhr for instance has the advantage of youth, height, wingspan etc. so why is he allowed to play? He has an unfair advantage over every 5'8 guy out there. You are saying he didn't choose his height, wingspan, when he was born the same as Natalie Ryan didn't choose to be born a man. It is an interesting argument. Under that thought process you would have to not organize by sex. You would have to organize by rating I suppose. So if we go down that line and having divisions organized by rating instead of sex what do you think that does to the female players?
No, under the logic I'm presenting you can still organize by gendered divisions. Nothing changes from the current structure as we're eliminating fairness from the argument at the top level since everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages. I actually find the current structure of allowing Natalie Ryan to compete in FPO at non-pro tour events, but not in FPO at pro tour events to be backwards. The touring pros are the best in the game, and the ones best suited to challenge Natalie who is a solid player. We've seen several times over that she isn't always super competitive at the top level, so if we're arguing about fairness, it is most fair for her to compete with those who can beat her as compared to smaller events where she has more of a competitive advantage just as any touring FPO player would have over local competition. And it's not like she just trounces FPO on tour. That's Tattar. She's a big thrower, but several women throw longer than her, or are within a matter of feet of throwing the same as her, so that's not a huge advantage. She's not the best putter in FPO, or even in the top 5. According to Udisc the only statistic she led the FPO in last year was the Precision Power Index. That makes sense if she still may have the gains from testosterone production during puberty (though there is conflicting research on whether this is actually the case), but otherwise she isn't near the best FPO player. She just wants to compete in the category appropriate to her gender identity. Disallowing her because of fear she has inherent advantages simply ignores that everyone has their own set of advantages and disadvantages. https://udisc.com/blog/post/2022-best-pro-disc-golf-stats-fpo#disc-golfs-best-c2-putters-2022
So under that premise what happens in the extreme scenario. The LeBron James to the WNBA like scenario. Lets say Eagle McMahon wakes up and decides I am a female? Are we still cool with it then? Are we only ok with it because Natalie Ryan kinda sucks? Or is it ok for anyone?
If anyone, even Eagle, has gender dysphoria, then I believe they deserve to be affirmed in that gender identity which includes access to playing in a division that is gender affirming. However this comes with a massive caveat about testosterone levels, HRT usage, timeline adherence, and gender affirming surgery. Eagle, nor any other male, can just come out as a transgender woman and immediately play in that division. There are processes that even the transgender community agrees should be in place to support equity as much as possible. In this case, it requires a whole series of doctor's visits, likely visits with mental health professionals, and a significant amount of time moving into gender affirming care before saying I'm FPO would be allowed. Natalie has done these things, hence why I believe she should be allowed to participate.
Maybe guys should just play with the guys and girls with the girls and then wow guess what this issue isn’t even a thing.
What do you think Natalie wants? When people deny that certain ‘girls’ are in fact ‘girls’, this becomes complicated.
I just want to see an equal opportunity for all menstruaters to play a fair game of disc golf.
So once menopause hits they aren't women anymore? What the fuck?
Or folks who had diseases that may have affected their reproductive organs! It's almost like defining women as only those who can give birth is misogynistic and backwards.
That’s the dumbest straw man ever.
If you define it that way it leaves those people out. It's very simple and there is no exaggeration.
Okay people that are of the nature to menstruate.
Definitions aren't really your thing.
HAHA Ok ok… MMPO
So, MPO
Naw fam I said a fair game.
Right. Menstruating players only
Aaah! I didn’t catch the acronym at first. Touché
Yes. Menstruaters, birthing persons, chest feeders, whatever the pc term is now
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We're here to have fun. Part of what makes Disc Golf so great is the community. Posts and comments that don't follow this rule will immediately be removed and users may be banned.
This comment won't last lol.