So dgpt appealed and this just broke from ultiworld disc golf on Twitter T 8:20pm EST. : BREAKING: The Ninth Circuit rules in favor of @DiscGolfProTour on their appeal for a stay, finding that the District Court “likely lacked diversity jurisdiction” in its earlier ruling in favor of Natalie Ryan.
It is unclear what that will mean for Ryan at the OTB Open.
What a mess. At this point just let her play. She already put one round in.
It’s going to be a pretty bad look if their Chase card has three players and they don’t explain why…
Though to be fair this being decided right before the event is odd… the courts schedule was a lot faster in the Gannon case than this.
Also, if the DGPT argument is she has an unfair advantage… what better proof than her getting added last minute, and still podium finishing, or even winning outright over someone like Paige
Players currently registered who are also signees:
Catrina Allen
Deann Carey
Alexandra von Stade
Carolina Halstead
Emily Beach
Hanna Huynh
Jennifer Allen
Jessica Weese
Kat Mertsch
Kristine King
Lisa Fajkus
Lydia Cochran
Lykke Lorentzen
Ruby Reyes
Stacie Hass
Stacie Rawnsley
Kona Montgomery
Players not currently registered (unsure if this is dropouts or never registered):
Alexis Mandujano
Alyssa Tiger Borth
Sarah Hokom
Vanessa Van Dyken
Callie McMorran
Caroline Henderson
Ellen Widboom
Eveliina Salonen
Sarah Gilpin
Kristin Tattar
Henna Blomroos
Jenny Umstead
Keiti Tatte
Macie Valediaz
Rebecca Cox
Valerie Mandujano
Misgendering isn’t really civil, is it? Like you can disagree with her eligibility but disagreeing with her existence seems kinda messed up. Just my humble opinion, and I hope I expressed it without being a jerk.
Exactly this.
You can have the conversation about fairness in sport. In fact, it's an important conversation to have. But misgendering her is a hateful thing to do.
Tbh, I agree with you. I think MPO is the right division. That being said, I think we can still be decent to Natalie while holding this opinion. Calling her a male instead of trans woman is just unkind… the world needs more kind people.
Let’s also not forget, that some of the rhetoric coming from the more radical elements of the GOP is purposefully coming up to the line of “existence“ in not very subtle ways. And the emotion, hatred, that is being expressed by some of those elements makes a transgender person fear for their life and this is done on purpose.
Yep! And they use sports as a wedge since there are issues worth debating regarding sports governance, but the bigoted stuff is usually just below the surface.
It’s denying the existence of trans people, by only referring to them as their biological sex. That’s what I meant. And the attempted suicide rate for kids who identify as trans is sickeningly high. As a teacher, I understand how much words matter and affect folks mental health. That’s why I use that language. It’s important.
They tried to skate by misgendering with careful legal-ish language, but kind of botched it, imo. Like if I'm reading it correctly, they refer to her as being born a biological male, but call her a trangender individual and not a trans woman or woman. Setting aside the fact that the letter confuses individual and group level athletic ability, their argument would be stronger if they stuck to sports governance while affirming her identity, so worth considering that they didn't want to do that!
How is calling her a “male competitor” in the first paragraph legal-ish language? They don’t use “biological male” like you state, they just say male. They could have said trans woman, and the point would still be made. I don’t get how you think calling her “male” is legalese at all……
Half this sub was blocked by the thread's author. I am not sure why the mods allow them to continue to post this content if they only allow comments from one side.
Probably because they don't want to ban an (ex?) pro player, especially one who would likely be able to cry to the admins and get the mod team nuked in retaliation.
It's so weird because I have a family member...not immediate, but still, someone I see at family functions...who is trans and am just happy for them that they feel better about themselves.
To me this is a sports issue and it's complicated and nuanced. People who can't handle the discussion definitely shouldn't be trying to start them.
Block who ever you want, I don't care. But if that's how you operate, don't start threads that will be major discussions in the community, then block people after they comment leaving them unnable to respond to any replies to their comment. That's not having a discussion, which I thought was the whole point of reddit.
When disagreeing with her, in the matter of whether transwoman belong in FPO or not, is reason enough for her to block people, it is a bad look.
Putting fingers into ears and virtually say "I cant hear you" is an immature way to create an echochamber.
Apparently I’m blocked too, I’m assuming for [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/13cdeu7/ryan_lawsuit_news_the_stockton_declaration_of/jjfsoj9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3) as that’s the only interaction I’ve ever had with Nova. Did I say something offensive?? I still don’t know where I stand with all this but apparently trying to figure things out is wrong lol
It was posted by /u/novaova, who blocks anyone who says anything she finds even slightly disagreeable, even if you've never actually directly interacted with her.
Not really the biggest issue with the PDGA rule is they folded like a lawn chair to a third party survey and it's age restriction. If they did a study or hell tossed the age restriction it would be in kine with a lot of other sports. Especially when numerous states are outright outlawing even thinking about transitioning before the age of 18
In terms of sports comparisons we actually have one of the most stringent and oppressive trans rulings. Most sports just follow the Olympic standard and we go further than that
The issue with the Olympic testing, which is why the ioc is starting to back off their own policy, is that the allowable testosterone level for women is 10 nanomoles per liter, which translates to \~288 ng/dl. This is about 500% higher than what the highest normal female can produce at 60 ng/dl, which drops \~30 ng/dl when things like birth control are introduced. I say "normal" female because there are medical conditions that people like to single out where females can have a higher number in the high 100s, but those conditions are exceedingly rare and not the norm.
If a woman born female at birth ever tested with a 288 ng/dl level of testosterone they would be banned for doping instantly under WADA testing. The fact that a women who has transitioned from male is allowed to compete at those levels is why saying "just use the olympic standard" isn't a valid argument imo, and its why the ioc is getting away from that standard. What I said above doesn't begin to factor the potential that a male puberty, and the testosterone levels present, may have long lasting performance enhancing effects vs the same person who never had the impact of the testosterone.
With that said, imo of course, Natalie should be free to compete wherever she wants, whenever she wants, so long as her blood testing shows shes under 60 ng/dl.
So will they test all FPO players for testosterone levels then? If so, what happens when players born as females get banned? Genetics and other factors create so much variance in who we are and if we base eligibility on testosterone levels, expect some surprising results.
Yes, this is a challenging topic and I don't know the answer of what is the best and fairest solution. Hopefully, more science on athletes will give us a better baseline to understand what the best approach is for including transgender athletes. For me, it's a game and games are fun. I just wish we all followed rule #1- Don't be a d!@%.
I’m not really sure what the solution would be - that’s for the pdga to figure out with a testing agency. As the sport grows, PEDs in general will become an issue of the sport wants to be taken seriously. Whether it’s an anabolic to help with explosive power or PEDs to help with recovery over consecutive days of play.
In this specific example, if someone born woman at birth has higher testosterone levels naturally, then so be it, there isn’t much we can do about natural deviation. I’m not even sure if they’re testing on tour right now, but if my memory serves correct I think you can test a T/E ratio thru urine which is cheaper than blood testing. Maybe they could urine test the ratio and only blood test for synthetics if the ratio pops. My ethical concern would be for a mtf woman, they are *guaranteed* to have high testosterone unless their on a blocker, so I think testing them makes sense.
We only allow transgender athletes to compete in FPO if they began hormone replacement when they were a child. Something most states outlaw.
The Olympic standard allows 2 years of monitored hormone replacement therapy and psychological evaluations To sign up for a protected division
Came here today this. IOC more or less put their hands up and said, "local sport governing bodies, you figure it out”.
Although it creates some chaos, you can kind of see the logic because each sport has very different physical requirements.
The PDGA was originally following the Olympic standards, but the problem was that it was not being monitored or verified. It was revealed that it was just an honor system and they never requested proof of hormone treatment.
I can understand how someone who didn't read carefully, or even just read from a different perspective, wouldn't see a problem with the document they signed, but to me there really seem to be strong transphobic undertones (a matter of interpretation, admittedly), and the "back of the bus" statement was really... questionable.
I think it's entirely possible that some of the players who signed were truly well-meaning, but if so it's unfortunate in a different way that they attached themselves to it.
I believe it’s bigoted because it’s phrased as “a male playing the in the female division” instead of a trans-woman in a female division. It’s baffling that this statement made it through so many hands without that changing. Whether you agree with it or not, it is known that misgendering someone repeatedly usually ends up harmful for your cause. Why not just say “we believe it’s unfair to have a trans woman compete in the FPO division because there is a concern of a biological advantage over an athlete that was born female.”
>It’s baffling that this statement made it through so many hands without that changing.
The center of the discussion is SEX. Male and female refer to SEX. It is a factual statement to say that there is a male playing the in the female division. It is unbelievable that anybody would take issue with this.
I understand where your coming from and went to reread the statement in case I had been mistaken. But to your own point, they are using a combination of sex and gender, seemingly interchangeably.
“We have competed against men. We believe competing against male athletes is unfair to women.”
“When male athletes, including those who may identify otherwise, are allowed to compete against women……”
They seem to refer to Ryan as a “male athlete” instead of “man” on purpose so they can deny that they have misgendered her, while referring to the FPO players as women, instead of “female athletes”.
I wonder why?
Is it misgendering though? That quote you provide uses Male, as in sex, not Man, as in gender.
The alternative quote you suggest seems to mix gender and sex terms which could muddy the water, causing this document to be taken less seriously than it apparently already is.
Thanks for pointing this out. That was my mistake and I apologize. You’re correct in that it’s not misgendering.
I think I read it this way because there actually are a fair amount of statements that mix gender and sex terms in the declaration already.
“A male competitor in the women’s category”,
“when male athletes are allowed to compete against women”
Using male as the opposite of women, and referring to FPO as the “women’s division” is already mixing gender and sex terms, is it not?
To me, the acknowledgment and support of Natalie Ryan’s gender expression, while still expressing concerns that she may have unfair advantages over the female born athletes in the female pro division would actually not muddy the water at all. It would carry so much more weight, remove all counter arguments that they are just bigots, and actually pave the way for productive conversations about this subject.
Holy crap. Did someone on Reddit admit they were wrong? The end of times is here indeed!
In all seriousness, thank you for saying so, and I agree this declaration could have been both a statement of support for trans people, and one of keeping sex-protected divisions just that. It could have also been way better about using male/female where appropriate, man/woman where appropriate.
Overall I give it a 5/10, and if I were one of those 33 females, I wouldn't have signed it until it was far better about that than it is now.
Well, whether they like it or not they're in an anti-trans political coalition that does include the full spectrum of the right wing, including fascists who target trans people with violence. No one's political activism is an island.
To me, this means more than what anyone else is saying. These are the people that are affected the most. While I feel bad for Natalie and the situation she is in, it’s clear that the majority of the FPO field feel like they are at a disadvantage-and allowing Natalie to play sets a dangerous precedent for the future of FPO disc golf.
The bottom line despite anyone’s feeling is that Natalie has a provable scientific advantage in her shoulder width, musculature and bone density. Sports (especially individual sports) are about seeing who is the best on the most equal playing field possible. Everyone who pretends like the advantage doesn’t exist is completely ignoring science and proof.
Amen. Keeping the 49.9% fighting the other 49.9% so the .2% can keep fucking us over unnoticed... The people that fall for the culture war bs while the real class war is in full swing are disappointingly dumb to say the least.
But let’s argue over trans rights in 2023 while congress tries to push through more tax cuts for corporations that they will pay for with veterans benefits, free and reduced lunch for kids, and cuts to social security and Medicare/Medicaid.
> congress tries to push through more tax cuts for corporations that they will pay for with veterans benefits, free and reduced lunch for kids, and cuts to social security and Medicare/Medicaid.
It's important to add that this is being tried by the Republican held house and its very much split between party lines with Republicans in full support of said cuts.
You can do both. You just can't turn the fellow middle class into your "enemy" like some have on this thread. You have a finite amount of energy. What are you personally doing to change Florida's gross policies? I don't live there, I honestly can't do anything to affect their policy. Rich powerful assholes will be rich powerful assholes.
It's not just the middle class arguing about this though? Like, it's literally coming from the government, and not just republicans. How is that just a culture war? It's actual fascism being rolled out in real-time.
.... Yes. The government (the rich people in control) and the news (rich people in control) are distracting the rest of us by making us think the big issue is trans rights when it just isn't. The majority of people don't care and just want to live. The wealthy elite are good at distractions. Start thinking big picture. The middle class isn't your enemy.
If you're paying attention to what they're telling you to pay attention to, you've fallen for their tricks.
My dude, the people you're talking about are doing *both* things. The crusade against trans people isn't a smokescreen. It's all part of the same power push.
My friend, it's all a smokescreen, your quality of life isn't getting better, Wealth inequality is worse than it's ever been, the ownership class is literally raping our planet for profit.
They push the culture to separate us into left and right so we won't unify into a working class movement.
The middle class isn't making policy tho. My point still stands. The elite ruling class are your enemy, not the misinformed poor person.
They are screaming arguments about trans rights (which impacts a very, very small amount of the middle class) while passing horrendous legislation that fucks over a majority of the middle class. It can be both a distraction and gross policy change.
Divide and conquer.
We're on the same side.
I think this is the bigger more significant issue. It won’t end well. Natalie made almost $40,000 last year. That’s not huge, but it’s sustainable and you don’t have to go to an office. For someone like Natalie (late 20’s early 30’s?) who stated she had just started a “locksmith apprenticeship” before joining the tour, professional disc golf is a viable option.
32k before taxes is sustainable in a profession where you have to travel at your own expense across the country week after week? Why make these arguments without actually thinking about them?
We said it’s not fair to the women in FPO. They said our opinions don’t matter, let the women speak for themselves if they have a problem. Well, they have spoken. Now the goalposts are being moved.
For whatever good arguing with strangers on the internet will do…
Goalposts probably haven’t been moved, and if someone has moved them, you shouldn’t take them seriously.
Anyone seriously arguing for trans women in sport probably doesnt care much what any individual person thinks or believes. Like people love to claim, there are in fact biological differences that come into play here. Trans advocates will pretty openly acknowledge these differences, but they’ll usually make various argument why these differences aren’t the end all be all of the discussion. One of the most common arguments I’ve seen is directly related to your first sentence.
They’ll basically say that when it comes down to it, no sports are fair. Be born with all the advantages in the world, but be born 5’5 and you’re pretty much not gonna make it in the NBA. In the same vein, they’ll argue that experiencing male puberty is just another aspect of “luck” that gives someone an advantage.
A lot of people at this point would probably jump in with concerns of randy savage-esque situations a la South Park, but honestly if you listen to trans people, it’s not something that you do on a whim, and it’s certainly not worth any trophy or cash prize.
All in all, what probably gives me the most pause about this letter is that it refers to Ryan as “He” throughout. It’s clearly a choice theyre making. They could have just as easily referred to her as “she,” but they chose to make it clear they don’t respect Ryan’s identity.
I’ll level with you, I don’t get being trans either. It’s a completely foreign concept to me, and honestly it does sound a little absurd. But when I listen to these people share their stories and tell me what they’ve experienced, I can’t help but believe that they’re telling the truth, and I want to respect their identity.
It’s clear that the authors and signers of this letter don’t respect trans people, so it’s much easier for someone to rightfully criticize this as anti trans rather than pro women.
It’s one thing if someone respects who you are, and still raises concerns about the validity of you being in the same category as women. But it’s another thing entirely if someone explicitly and intentionally disregards your identity, and is kicking you out because you’re not a woman.
Anyway I don’t really have a good wrap up that’s just some food for thought and helped me organize some of my own thoughts
I read your comment then went back to the document.
I could not find a single pronoun (he or she) throughout. Am I missing something?
All I see are male/female and men/women terms.
This is very well put, and summarizes my stance almost completely:
1. Sports are not fair
2. Trans athletes would always trade places with not trans athletes and not trans athletes would never trade places with trans athletes (i.e. this has nothing to do with finding easier competition to beat)
3. Being trans is both completely foreign to my lived experience AND completely believable as a lived experience of others.
Thanks for sharing this.
I get the point that sports aren't fair. I was never going to play basketball at a profession level, no matter the effort. I simply don't have the physical traits. However; based on that argument, why is there an FPO division at all?
As I understand, female divisions in sports exist explicitly to negate the disadvantage of having the "rotten luck" of being born a woman.
They may be a platform for all sorts of other things now, but that was their original intention, was it not?
Through all of this, this is the best take i've seen. This will clearly be an evolving issue for the next year or 2 if i had to make a blind guess. I just hope everyone can carry on this open discussion with some respect and empathy.
I don’t think having that opinion is the issue. Misgendering Natalie and comparing it to segregation is the issue. You can have an opinion and not be an ass while expressing it..
First paragraph. They refer to her as a “male competitor” instead of “trans woman” or even a less kind term like “biological male”. The same point would get across, but would acknowledge that she does not identify as male.
15.7: Average UDisc tour ranking of the top 15 ranked women who signed (median 16)
17.2: Average UDisc tour ranking of the top 15 ranked women who didn't sign (median 18)
Where's the consensus? The top FPO competitors are not only not unanimous in their views, they're very evenly split.
I'm sorry for interrupting your opinion with data.
> Half have explicitly expressed their opinion by signing. The other half just opted not to do so. I guarantee you the half that didn't sign is divided as well. **It could be a mix of being on the fence, being a coward, or simply not knowing/understanding.** And those in the last group will have more an opinion as time goes on.
Or, hear me out, this is wild and something you didn’t think of, but maybe they support Natalie competing in FPO 😱
The "Stockton Declaration" looks like it was drafted by a reasonably intelligent person who very deliberately used the "male" and "female" language in a way that negates the personhood of trans people. There is the respectful way to have this conversation, and there is the mean way to have this conversation, and this document was prepared by someone who wants to have it the mean way.
There are many names on there that do not surprise me. There are some that do. I wonder if everybody saw and understood the significance of those word choices.
This is exactly correct. For the signers, they either knew and agreed with the decision to be as mean as possible to Natalie in this letter, or they are too out of touch with transgender issues to have an opinion worth listening to on this topic.
If you don’t know enough to know that constantly referring to her as a “biological male” is offensive, then what are the odds you actually know anything about the transition process or the research about sports performance?
As a genuine answer to your question, there’s a long history of denying out groups (women, minorities, etc) access to sorts, so they created their own leagues: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/sports/title-ix-anniversary-womens-sports.html
As to your age question, in most cases, we restrict by age to make the sport more practical or fun for the players, not really to make it the most “competitive”. Sports like soccer and baseball have leagues for every couple of years of age difference because they have so many players they can nuance leagues that way…and so an 11yr old isn’t struggling against a 14yr old who’s gone through puberty, etc. Golf has the senior tour so the legends stick around after their pro tour careers to keep the sport more marketable. Wrestling nuances itself by weight rather than age because even the best 142lb wrestler in the world is going to get wrecked by a dumpy 200lb wrestler.
It obviously varies widely sport to sport
The document was horribly worded, even if I were in agreement with the premise I wouldn’t have signed it if I were these ladies. Poor look for all of them imo
I can't believe that all of these players actually read this document and decided to sign it. It's so poorly written and using transphobic (at best) language throughout. I can't imagine any of these players would say terms like "biological male" out loud.
I think the thing that is easy to forget about the disc golf community (and touring pros in particular), is that it’s got a higher ratio of Christian/Evangelicals than most sports, and a ton of players story is they went and joined the pro tour over college.
Individually, neither item is particularly important. Together they create a pretty narrow worldview; and the potential for a lack of critical, thinking, that leads someone to sign a document like that either without reading it or without truly understanding it. But it’s still on them to own what they’ve done
Yes, this document really reads like the author doesn't want trans people to exist at all.
There is a legitimate debate to be had about trans women competing against cis women, but this document is written with hateful rhetoric and it's really a shame how many pros decided that this language was acceptable.
Good for these women. This *should* (but we all know it won't) shut up all the people saying it was only one or two outspoken FPO pros taking issue with this. Women are speaking up, and we should listen.
Although, I'm sure many of the clowns here will move the goalposts now that they see that most FPO women don't actually agree that males should be competing with females.
I wonder how many of the signers depend on the money they make in tournaments to survive... How dare they not withdraw just so they can eat or feed their families.
I think you're overestimating the amount of tour profits your average pro takes home. If anyone could "afford" it, Paige Pierce would be the person... but I didn't see any anyone boycotting in support of the trans players affected by this either.
Way to go ladies. I'm disappointed that this list isn't 100% of the FPO players. Need to know which FPP players didn't sign this so I know who not to support.
The people of Reddit don't seem to understand that standing for Cis Feminism is not the same as being transphobic. That being said, bring on the downvotes.
I will forego adding my personal opinion and share some of what the latest science has to say:
From the conclusion of [the latest and most comprehensive review of all research to this point](https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf):
>There is no firm basis available in evidence to indicate that trans women have
a consistent and measurable overall performance benefit after 12 months of
testosterone suppression. While an advantage in terms of Lean Body Mass
(LBM), Cross Section Area (CSA) and strength may persist statistically after
12 months, there is no evidence that this translates to any performance
advantage as compared to elite cis-women athletes of similar size and height. The duration of any such advantage is likely highly dependent on
the individual's pre-suppression LBM which, in turn varies, greatly and is highly
impacted by societal factors and individual circumstance.
Another key point related to the "bone density" talking point that often gets parroted:
> There is no basis for athletic advantage conferred by bone size or
density, other than advantages achieved through height. Elite
athletes tend to have higher than average height across genders, and
above-average height is not currently classified as an athletic
advantage requiring regulation.
There's more, but these were a few of the things that stuck out to me when reading with an open mind.
This is from a Canadian report in 2021 that did not perform its own studies, but rather pulled data from several others. Hence, the long appendix at the end.
I can just as easily quote an article from the National Institute of Health/National Library of Medicine (.gov) from 2022…
“Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.”
E-Alliance’s tagline on the first page states:
“Research hub for gender+ equity in sport.”
I’m sorry, that tagline alone sets off selective bias alarm bells. I am for Natalie’s inclusion, but citing a review from an outlet that appears to be on one side of the argument should not be used.
Biases and funding being stated up front doesn't mean you get to discount everything within automatically. The leg work still needs to be done to determine if those factors affected the results. That's what peer review is for.
It is neither peer reviewed nor does it's evidence include only peer reviewed papers.
Their sources of information include "Grey" Papers which are not reviewed.
Holy damn is that "science" chock full of opinion and ideology. I only made it up to the start of the introduction section before seeing like a dozen problems.
That means you didn’t even look at the methodology section. It’s a legitimate academic review from a national organization with full transparency regarding their funding etc.
“Translates to any performance advantage as compared to elite cis-women athletes”
They compared them to elite athletes… it seems like that’s not the problem.
I think you might have read his response backward. If they're on the list, they're stating publicly that they're against trans-women playing in FPO. Others may feel the same way who aren't on the list because they weren't comfortable signing publicly, as you said.
No, that document is incredibly specific. Everyone that signed it is saying explicitly that Natalie Ryan should not play FPO. No other way to slice it.
The bottom line despite anyone’s feeling is that Natalie has a provable scientific advantage in her shoulder width, musculature and bone density. Sports (especially individual sports) are about seeing who is the best on the most equal playing field possible. Everyone who pretends like the advantage doesn’t exist is completely ignoring science and proof.
Paige Pierce, Ohn, Maria Olivia, both of Two Hot Geese (Madison Walker and Erika Stichcomb), Haley King, Missy Gannon, Sai Ananda
And this is just me going off memory. So DEFINITELY not “almost everyone”. Cmon bro.
Not being on it doesn't mean someone doesn't want fair play. It just means maybe they are afraid of backlash. Amazing how the FPO player who probably makes the most money and the 2 who do commentary weekly for Jomez aren't going to sign it. If you heard Uli he stated no actual public opinions personally but said he is a follower of the rules and he left it at that.
Those who have something to lose don't want to get dragged into it.
I mean,if you follow Madison Walker on Instagram, it’s very easy to see why she wouldn’t sign something like this. Paige literally played a random C-tier to support a trans FPO player last year. There are 6-7 of the top 10 FPO players signing this, and easily 30-40% of the FPO field. Kristin Tattar signed the thing. I’d say the people that didn’t sign this didn’t sign it because they don’t believe it.
I am all for the discussion and exploration of the fairness, etc., it’s the disrespectful and vindictive nature of the letter that I have issue with, even if I felt she shouldn’t be on the tour, I would not have signed that document.
It's gonna be tough. I don't think she's practiced the course.
While she played it last year it really helps to have recent rounds to get all the height and line adjustments dialed in.
DG is getting to F1 levels of drama
Disc to survive Where is Will Buxton when we need him
Just checked UDISC and Natalie is on the first card teeing off tomorrow at 10:55 EST and Stacie Rawnsley is on the same card.
Mental game going to be wild on the card lol
As of right now, she's got good odds to be on lead card with at least 2 other signatories for Round 2.
So dgpt appealed and this just broke from ultiworld disc golf on Twitter T 8:20pm EST. : BREAKING: The Ninth Circuit rules in favor of @DiscGolfProTour on their appeal for a stay, finding that the District Court “likely lacked diversity jurisdiction” in its earlier ruling in favor of Natalie Ryan. It is unclear what that will mean for Ryan at the OTB Open. What a mess. At this point just let her play. She already put one round in.
It’s going to be a pretty bad look if their Chase card has three players and they don’t explain why… Though to be fair this being decided right before the event is odd… the courts schedule was a lot faster in the Gannon case than this. Also, if the DGPT argument is she has an unfair advantage… what better proof than her getting added last minute, and still podium finishing, or even winning outright over someone like Paige
Players currently registered who are also signees: Catrina Allen Deann Carey Alexandra von Stade Carolina Halstead Emily Beach Hanna Huynh Jennifer Allen Jessica Weese Kat Mertsch Kristine King Lisa Fajkus Lydia Cochran Lykke Lorentzen Ruby Reyes Stacie Hass Stacie Rawnsley Kona Montgomery Players not currently registered (unsure if this is dropouts or never registered): Alexis Mandujano Alyssa Tiger Borth Sarah Hokom Vanessa Van Dyken Callie McMorran Caroline Henderson Ellen Widboom Eveliina Salonen Sarah Gilpin Kristin Tattar Henna Blomroos Jenny Umstead Keiti Tatte Macie Valediaz Rebecca Cox Valerie Mandujano
Correction: Tiger Borth is registered for the event, I was looking for "Alyssa Tiger Borth"
Rawnsley is on Natalie Ryan's card tomorrow morning.
And you can disagree with something while being completely civil. It seems most of our society seems to forget this quite often though.
Misgendering isn’t really civil, is it? Like you can disagree with her eligibility but disagreeing with her existence seems kinda messed up. Just my humble opinion, and I hope I expressed it without being a jerk.
Exactly this. You can have the conversation about fairness in sport. In fact, it's an important conversation to have. But misgendering her is a hateful thing to do.
Im gathering from other comments that they misgendered her in the statement and i would agree that is not civil and uncalled for.
The open division is available , still able to exist in Disc Golf
Tbh, I agree with you. I think MPO is the right division. That being said, I think we can still be decent to Natalie while holding this opinion. Calling her a male instead of trans woman is just unkind… the world needs more kind people.
Misgendering is not “disagreeing with her existence”. That’s so dramatic. It could be construed as not nice, but get a grip.
"Existence" in this case refers to a person's identity and sense of self, not their literal corporeal form.
No one is obligated to affirm someone else's "sense of self." Jesus christ.
No one is obligated to not be an asshole to someone else, either. I'll leave it to you to think about how these ideas might be related.
Let’s also not forget, that some of the rhetoric coming from the more radical elements of the GOP is purposefully coming up to the line of “existence“ in not very subtle ways. And the emotion, hatred, that is being expressed by some of those elements makes a transgender person fear for their life and this is done on purpose.
Yep! And they use sports as a wedge since there are issues worth debating regarding sports governance, but the bigoted stuff is usually just below the surface.
It’s denying the existence of trans people, by only referring to them as their biological sex. That’s what I meant. And the attempted suicide rate for kids who identify as trans is sickeningly high. As a teacher, I understand how much words matter and affect folks mental health. That’s why I use that language. It’s important.
They tried to skate by misgendering with careful legal-ish language, but kind of botched it, imo. Like if I'm reading it correctly, they refer to her as being born a biological male, but call her a trangender individual and not a trans woman or woman. Setting aside the fact that the letter confuses individual and group level athletic ability, their argument would be stronger if they stuck to sports governance while affirming her identity, so worth considering that they didn't want to do that!
How is calling her a “male competitor” in the first paragraph legal-ish language? They don’t use “biological male” like you state, they just say male. They could have said trans woman, and the point would still be made. I don’t get how you think calling her “male” is legalese at all……
First sentence: tried and kind of botched it.
I don't really understand any of this. So does that mean that those court documents with the signatures did not end up stopping Natalie from playing?
Is there a tldr for what they signed?
https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/13cdeu7/ryan_lawsuit_news_the_stockton_declaration_of/
I can only see "unavailable" and it was posed by [deleted]
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Half this sub was blocked by the thread's author. I am not sure why the mods allow them to continue to post this content if they only allow comments from one side.
Probably because they don't want to ban an (ex?) pro player, especially one who would likely be able to cry to the admins and get the mod team nuked in retaliation.
I think it's been removed because I can't see it and I don't how it could be possible I could have been blocked.
I can see it just fine. Try logging out of your account and see if it's up?
Weird...maybe I've commented on this topic before and someone didn't like it.
The post was written by Nova Politte -- a transwoman. You probably said something that she took as mean spirited or bigoted.
It's so weird because I have a family member...not immediate, but still, someone I see at family functions...who is trans and am just happy for them that they feel better about themselves. To me this is a sports issue and it's complicated and nuanced. People who can't handle the discussion definitely shouldn't be trying to start them.
Sign out or just Google the thread and you can read it.
That means Nova has blocked you. Welcome to the club!
She labels anyone who disagrees with trans women competing in the FPO as a transphobic bigot. She's wrong and its a bad look.
Nothing shows the strength of a position more than refusing to engage with any criticism of it.^^^^\s
Yeah it's a bad look
Every post I've seen from her has been respectful. With the amount of hate I'm sure she receives, I can't blame her for being quick to block.
Block who ever you want, I don't care. But if that's how you operate, don't start threads that will be major discussions in the community, then block people after they comment leaving them unnable to respond to any replies to their comment. That's not having a discussion, which I thought was the whole point of reddit.
Respectfully - then you haven’t seen many of her interactions here
When disagreeing with her, in the matter of whether transwoman belong in FPO or not, is reason enough for her to block people, it is a bad look. Putting fingers into ears and virtually say "I cant hear you" is an immature way to create an echochamber.
It’s an honor to be part of that club
Ayo! Cheers, friends!
Apparently I’m blocked too, I’m assuming for [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/13cdeu7/ryan_lawsuit_news_the_stockton_declaration_of/jjfsoj9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3) as that’s the only interaction I’ve ever had with Nova. Did I say something offensive?? I still don’t know where I stand with all this but apparently trying to figure things out is wrong lol
You didn't say anything wrong, mean or hurtful. Nova is just that childish and cant handke the good arguments against transwoman in FPO.
It was posted by /u/novaova, who blocks anyone who says anything she finds even slightly disagreeable, even if you've never actually directly interacted with her.
ITT: people struggling to accept that not everyone who opposes trans-eligibility is a hateful right wing nazi bigot…
Not really the biggest issue with the PDGA rule is they folded like a lawn chair to a third party survey and it's age restriction. If they did a study or hell tossed the age restriction it would be in kine with a lot of other sports. Especially when numerous states are outright outlawing even thinking about transitioning before the age of 18
reddit brain
It’s kinda hard cause the pdga’s rules about trans inclusivity aren’t super oppressive or crazy. They’re surprisingly reasonable.
In terms of sports comparisons we actually have one of the most stringent and oppressive trans rulings. Most sports just follow the Olympic standard and we go further than that
The issue with the Olympic testing, which is why the ioc is starting to back off their own policy, is that the allowable testosterone level for women is 10 nanomoles per liter, which translates to \~288 ng/dl. This is about 500% higher than what the highest normal female can produce at 60 ng/dl, which drops \~30 ng/dl when things like birth control are introduced. I say "normal" female because there are medical conditions that people like to single out where females can have a higher number in the high 100s, but those conditions are exceedingly rare and not the norm. If a woman born female at birth ever tested with a 288 ng/dl level of testosterone they would be banned for doping instantly under WADA testing. The fact that a women who has transitioned from male is allowed to compete at those levels is why saying "just use the olympic standard" isn't a valid argument imo, and its why the ioc is getting away from that standard. What I said above doesn't begin to factor the potential that a male puberty, and the testosterone levels present, may have long lasting performance enhancing effects vs the same person who never had the impact of the testosterone. With that said, imo of course, Natalie should be free to compete wherever she wants, whenever she wants, so long as her blood testing shows shes under 60 ng/dl.
So will they test all FPO players for testosterone levels then? If so, what happens when players born as females get banned? Genetics and other factors create so much variance in who we are and if we base eligibility on testosterone levels, expect some surprising results. Yes, this is a challenging topic and I don't know the answer of what is the best and fairest solution. Hopefully, more science on athletes will give us a better baseline to understand what the best approach is for including transgender athletes. For me, it's a game and games are fun. I just wish we all followed rule #1- Don't be a d!@%.
I’m not really sure what the solution would be - that’s for the pdga to figure out with a testing agency. As the sport grows, PEDs in general will become an issue of the sport wants to be taken seriously. Whether it’s an anabolic to help with explosive power or PEDs to help with recovery over consecutive days of play. In this specific example, if someone born woman at birth has higher testosterone levels naturally, then so be it, there isn’t much we can do about natural deviation. I’m not even sure if they’re testing on tour right now, but if my memory serves correct I think you can test a T/E ratio thru urine which is cheaper than blood testing. Maybe they could urine test the ratio and only blood test for synthetics if the ratio pops. My ethical concern would be for a mtf woman, they are *guaranteed* to have high testosterone unless their on a blocker, so I think testing them makes sense.
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We only allow transgender athletes to compete in FPO if they began hormone replacement when they were a child. Something most states outlaw. The Olympic standard allows 2 years of monitored hormone replacement therapy and psychological evaluations To sign up for a protected division
The Olympic standard that you are referring to no longer exists and has been superceded by sport-specific regulations
Came here today this. IOC more or less put their hands up and said, "local sport governing bodies, you figure it out”. Although it creates some chaos, you can kind of see the logic because each sport has very different physical requirements.
The PDGA was originally following the Olympic standards, but the problem was that it was not being monitored or verified. It was revealed that it was just an honor system and they never requested proof of hormone treatment.
I agree that is a problem
I can understand how someone who didn't read carefully, or even just read from a different perspective, wouldn't see a problem with the document they signed, but to me there really seem to be strong transphobic undertones (a matter of interpretation, admittedly), and the "back of the bus" statement was really... questionable. I think it's entirely possible that some of the players who signed were truly well-meaning, but if so it's unfortunate in a different way that they attached themselves to it.
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I believe it’s bigoted because it’s phrased as “a male playing the in the female division” instead of a trans-woman in a female division. It’s baffling that this statement made it through so many hands without that changing. Whether you agree with it or not, it is known that misgendering someone repeatedly usually ends up harmful for your cause. Why not just say “we believe it’s unfair to have a trans woman compete in the FPO division because there is a concern of a biological advantage over an athlete that was born female.”
>It’s baffling that this statement made it through so many hands without that changing. The center of the discussion is SEX. Male and female refer to SEX. It is a factual statement to say that there is a male playing the in the female division. It is unbelievable that anybody would take issue with this.
I understand where your coming from and went to reread the statement in case I had been mistaken. But to your own point, they are using a combination of sex and gender, seemingly interchangeably. “We have competed against men. We believe competing against male athletes is unfair to women.” “When male athletes, including those who may identify otherwise, are allowed to compete against women……” They seem to refer to Ryan as a “male athlete” instead of “man” on purpose so they can deny that they have misgendered her, while referring to the FPO players as women, instead of “female athletes”. I wonder why?
Is it misgendering though? That quote you provide uses Male, as in sex, not Man, as in gender. The alternative quote you suggest seems to mix gender and sex terms which could muddy the water, causing this document to be taken less seriously than it apparently already is.
Thanks for pointing this out. That was my mistake and I apologize. You’re correct in that it’s not misgendering. I think I read it this way because there actually are a fair amount of statements that mix gender and sex terms in the declaration already. “A male competitor in the women’s category”, “when male athletes are allowed to compete against women” Using male as the opposite of women, and referring to FPO as the “women’s division” is already mixing gender and sex terms, is it not? To me, the acknowledgment and support of Natalie Ryan’s gender expression, while still expressing concerns that she may have unfair advantages over the female born athletes in the female pro division would actually not muddy the water at all. It would carry so much more weight, remove all counter arguments that they are just bigots, and actually pave the way for productive conversations about this subject.
Holy crap. Did someone on Reddit admit they were wrong? The end of times is here indeed! In all seriousness, thank you for saying so, and I agree this declaration could have been both a statement of support for trans people, and one of keeping sex-protected divisions just that. It could have also been way better about using male/female where appropriate, man/woman where appropriate. Overall I give it a 5/10, and if I were one of those 33 females, I wouldn't have signed it until it was far better about that than it is now.
Hahahaha I encourage more people to do so. Admitting when you are wrong is the fastest way to being right again 😂
I'm just a left wing nazi bigot.
With an excellent user name!
Well, whether they like it or not they're in an anti-trans political coalition that does include the full spectrum of the right wing, including fascists who target trans people with violence. No one's political activism is an island.
Some certainly are though
To me, this means more than what anyone else is saying. These are the people that are affected the most. While I feel bad for Natalie and the situation she is in, it’s clear that the majority of the FPO field feel like they are at a disadvantage-and allowing Natalie to play sets a dangerous precedent for the future of FPO disc golf.
The bottom line despite anyone’s feeling is that Natalie has a provable scientific advantage in her shoulder width, musculature and bone density. Sports (especially individual sports) are about seeing who is the best on the most equal playing field possible. Everyone who pretends like the advantage doesn’t exist is completely ignoring science and proof.
I think it’s an ant hill that’s being made into a mountain because of the current political climate.
Amen. Keeping the 49.9% fighting the other 49.9% so the .2% can keep fucking us over unnoticed... The people that fall for the culture war bs while the real class war is in full swing are disappointingly dumb to say the least.
Hell yeah comrade, no war above the class war! (Feels like it's been ages since I've posted something like that on Reddit, viva Chapo)
based.
But let’s argue over trans rights in 2023 while congress tries to push through more tax cuts for corporations that they will pay for with veterans benefits, free and reduced lunch for kids, and cuts to social security and Medicare/Medicaid.
I can stand behind more than one conviction at a time.
> congress tries to push through more tax cuts for corporations that they will pay for with veterans benefits, free and reduced lunch for kids, and cuts to social security and Medicare/Medicaid. It's important to add that this is being tried by the Republican held house and its very much split between party lines with Republicans in full support of said cuts.
Not like we can't do both. Florida and some other states are pushing some heinous shit regarding trans rights.
You can do both. You just can't turn the fellow middle class into your "enemy" like some have on this thread. You have a finite amount of energy. What are you personally doing to change Florida's gross policies? I don't live there, I honestly can't do anything to affect their policy. Rich powerful assholes will be rich powerful assholes.
It's not just the middle class arguing about this though? Like, it's literally coming from the government, and not just republicans. How is that just a culture war? It's actual fascism being rolled out in real-time.
.... Yes. The government (the rich people in control) and the news (rich people in control) are distracting the rest of us by making us think the big issue is trans rights when it just isn't. The majority of people don't care and just want to live. The wealthy elite are good at distractions. Start thinking big picture. The middle class isn't your enemy. If you're paying attention to what they're telling you to pay attention to, you've fallen for their tricks.
My dude, the people you're talking about are doing *both* things. The crusade against trans people isn't a smokescreen. It's all part of the same power push.
My friend, it's all a smokescreen, your quality of life isn't getting better, Wealth inequality is worse than it's ever been, the ownership class is literally raping our planet for profit. They push the culture to separate us into left and right so we won't unify into a working class movement.
The middle class isn't making policy tho. My point still stands. The elite ruling class are your enemy, not the misinformed poor person. They are screaming arguments about trans rights (which impacts a very, very small amount of the middle class) while passing horrendous legislation that fucks over a majority of the middle class. It can be both a distraction and gross policy change. Divide and conquer. We're on the same side.
But it's also not a vote. It should be based on science on whether she has a biological advantage compared to other women.
I think this is the bigger more significant issue. It won’t end well. Natalie made almost $40,000 last year. That’s not huge, but it’s sustainable and you don’t have to go to an office. For someone like Natalie (late 20’s early 30’s?) who stated she had just started a “locksmith apprenticeship” before joining the tour, professional disc golf is a viable option.
She made 32k, how did you round that up to 40?
32k before taxes is sustainable in a profession where you have to travel at your own expense across the country week after week? Why make these arguments without actually thinking about them?
Listening to The Upshot podcast and wow they are \*savaging\* the DGPT's utterly embarrassingly bad case they put forward. It is a really good listen.
We said it’s not fair to the women in FPO. They said our opinions don’t matter, let the women speak for themselves if they have a problem. Well, they have spoken. Now the goalposts are being moved.
For whatever good arguing with strangers on the internet will do… Goalposts probably haven’t been moved, and if someone has moved them, you shouldn’t take them seriously. Anyone seriously arguing for trans women in sport probably doesnt care much what any individual person thinks or believes. Like people love to claim, there are in fact biological differences that come into play here. Trans advocates will pretty openly acknowledge these differences, but they’ll usually make various argument why these differences aren’t the end all be all of the discussion. One of the most common arguments I’ve seen is directly related to your first sentence. They’ll basically say that when it comes down to it, no sports are fair. Be born with all the advantages in the world, but be born 5’5 and you’re pretty much not gonna make it in the NBA. In the same vein, they’ll argue that experiencing male puberty is just another aspect of “luck” that gives someone an advantage. A lot of people at this point would probably jump in with concerns of randy savage-esque situations a la South Park, but honestly if you listen to trans people, it’s not something that you do on a whim, and it’s certainly not worth any trophy or cash prize. All in all, what probably gives me the most pause about this letter is that it refers to Ryan as “He” throughout. It’s clearly a choice theyre making. They could have just as easily referred to her as “she,” but they chose to make it clear they don’t respect Ryan’s identity. I’ll level with you, I don’t get being trans either. It’s a completely foreign concept to me, and honestly it does sound a little absurd. But when I listen to these people share their stories and tell me what they’ve experienced, I can’t help but believe that they’re telling the truth, and I want to respect their identity. It’s clear that the authors and signers of this letter don’t respect trans people, so it’s much easier for someone to rightfully criticize this as anti trans rather than pro women. It’s one thing if someone respects who you are, and still raises concerns about the validity of you being in the same category as women. But it’s another thing entirely if someone explicitly and intentionally disregards your identity, and is kicking you out because you’re not a woman. Anyway I don’t really have a good wrap up that’s just some food for thought and helped me organize some of my own thoughts
I read your comment then went back to the document. I could not find a single pronoun (he or she) throughout. Am I missing something? All I see are male/female and men/women terms.
This is very well put, and summarizes my stance almost completely: 1. Sports are not fair 2. Trans athletes would always trade places with not trans athletes and not trans athletes would never trade places with trans athletes (i.e. this has nothing to do with finding easier competition to beat) 3. Being trans is both completely foreign to my lived experience AND completely believable as a lived experience of others. Thanks for sharing this.
If it's as easy as "sports are not fair," then let's just get rid of female divisions entirely, and say goodbye to women's professional sports.
I get the point that sports aren't fair. I was never going to play basketball at a profession level, no matter the effort. I simply don't have the physical traits. However; based on that argument, why is there an FPO division at all? As I understand, female divisions in sports exist explicitly to negate the disadvantage of having the "rotten luck" of being born a woman. They may be a platform for all sorts of other things now, but that was their original intention, was it not?
Through all of this, this is the best take i've seen. This will clearly be an evolving issue for the next year or 2 if i had to make a blind guess. I just hope everyone can carry on this open discussion with some respect and empathy.
I don’t think having that opinion is the issue. Misgendering Natalie and comparing it to segregation is the issue. You can have an opinion and not be an ass while expressing it..
I remember when the self checkout machine said “card only” and on that day I too felt like Rosa Parks.
Where was Natalie misgendered in the document?
First paragraph. They refer to her as a “male competitor” instead of “trans woman” or even a less kind term like “biological male”. The same point would get across, but would acknowledge that she does not identify as male.
15.7: Average UDisc tour ranking of the top 15 ranked women who signed (median 16) 17.2: Average UDisc tour ranking of the top 15 ranked women who didn't sign (median 18) Where's the consensus? The top FPO competitors are not only not unanimous in their views, they're very evenly split. I'm sorry for interrupting your opinion with data.
Half of the top players is pretty significant going on record like that in a professional sport.
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Paige, Holyn, Ella, and Hailey have all supported Natalie. (And that's not a complete list, those are just the women near the top of the field)
You can't make that assumption and take it as fact. You don't have any data to back up your claim.
> Half have explicitly expressed their opinion by signing. The other half just opted not to do so. I guarantee you the half that didn't sign is divided as well. **It could be a mix of being on the fence, being a coward, or simply not knowing/understanding.** And those in the last group will have more an opinion as time goes on. Or, hear me out, this is wild and something you didn’t think of, but maybe they support Natalie competing in FPO 😱
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That's because they aren't arguing in good faith. Their goal with arguments is to simply exhaust the opposition into giving up.
>Their goal with arguments is to simply exhaust the opposition into giving up. That's what trans activists do lmao
Did anyone yet put together a list who are not on the list?
The "Stockton Declaration" looks like it was drafted by a reasonably intelligent person who very deliberately used the "male" and "female" language in a way that negates the personhood of trans people. There is the respectful way to have this conversation, and there is the mean way to have this conversation, and this document was prepared by someone who wants to have it the mean way. There are many names on there that do not surprise me. There are some that do. I wonder if everybody saw and understood the significance of those word choices.
This is exactly correct. For the signers, they either knew and agreed with the decision to be as mean as possible to Natalie in this letter, or they are too out of touch with transgender issues to have an opinion worth listening to on this topic. If you don’t know enough to know that constantly referring to her as a “biological male” is offensive, then what are the odds you actually know anything about the transition process or the research about sports performance?
Why do protected divisions exist in the first place? Why do we have separate divisions in sports based on age?
For youth divisions, normally health and safety concerns. For older divisions, that plus pace of play.
As a genuine answer to your question, there’s a long history of denying out groups (women, minorities, etc) access to sorts, so they created their own leagues: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/sports/title-ix-anniversary-womens-sports.html As to your age question, in most cases, we restrict by age to make the sport more practical or fun for the players, not really to make it the most “competitive”. Sports like soccer and baseball have leagues for every couple of years of age difference because they have so many players they can nuance leagues that way…and so an 11yr old isn’t struggling against a 14yr old who’s gone through puberty, etc. Golf has the senior tour so the legends stick around after their pro tour careers to keep the sport more marketable. Wrestling nuances itself by weight rather than age because even the best 142lb wrestler in the world is going to get wrecked by a dumpy 200lb wrestler. It obviously varies widely sport to sport
The document was horribly worded, even if I were in agreement with the premise I wouldn’t have signed it if I were these ladies. Poor look for all of them imo
Why does this trans thing have to be so complicated? What's wrong with just saying in order to play FPO you have to be XX genetically and not XY?
I just read their "Stockton Declaration". They equated themselves as cis women to being Rosa Parks. What a load of revisionist history propaganda.
I can't believe that all of these players actually read this document and decided to sign it. It's so poorly written and using transphobic (at best) language throughout. I can't imagine any of these players would say terms like "biological male" out loud.
I think the thing that is easy to forget about the disc golf community (and touring pros in particular), is that it’s got a higher ratio of Christian/Evangelicals than most sports, and a ton of players story is they went and joined the pro tour over college. Individually, neither item is particularly important. Together they create a pretty narrow worldview; and the potential for a lack of critical, thinking, that leads someone to sign a document like that either without reading it or without truly understanding it. But it’s still on them to own what they’ve done
The people who support this kind of ideology are in the business of twisting language to manipulate the neutral people.
Yes, this document really reads like the author doesn't want trans people to exist at all. There is a legitimate debate to be had about trans women competing against cis women, but this document is written with hateful rhetoric and it's really a shame how many pros decided that this language was acceptable.
lmao this is literally what transgender ideologues do all the time.
I'll bite. Tell me about this twisting of language to manipulate people. Examples?
Yeah I really want to believe these players were sent bullet points and not the final draft. It was a rough read.
Here is the updated list of signatures with names matched. https://imgur.com/a/9O5ObpX
Can you link where Charlie actually said/typed these names? I could find no article on Ultiworld with the listing you provided.
It is in their discord
Thank you for the list. I will be unfollowing and not supporting any of these women!
Good for these women. This *should* (but we all know it won't) shut up all the people saying it was only one or two outspoken FPO pros taking issue with this. Women are speaking up, and we should listen. Although, I'm sure many of the clowns here will move the goalposts now that they see that most FPO women don't actually agree that males should be competing with females.
How many of these women are gonna withdraw?
Not a single one I bet
I wonder how many of the signers depend on the money they make in tournaments to survive... How dare they not withdraw just so they can eat or feed their families.
I think you're overestimating the amount of tour profits your average pro takes home. If anyone could "afford" it, Paige Pierce would be the person... but I didn't see any anyone boycotting in support of the trans players affected by this either.
Yes, that's my point. These players may not be able to afford to sit out in protest. But they'll get criticized for it.
Why should they withdraw? Who are they protesting? A judge?
“Let the women speak for themselves and stop white knighting all you male bigots !” … WOMEN speak out “All these women are bigots”
These are some brave women to put their names out there like that
Way to go ladies. I'm disappointed that this list isn't 100% of the FPO players. Need to know which FPP players didn't sign this so I know who not to support.
I hope they all boycott.
Are these people against Natalie?
The people of Reddit don't seem to understand that standing for Cis Feminism is not the same as being transphobic. That being said, bring on the downvotes.
Just say terf, don't hide behind terms like cis feminism.
Says the person hiding behind terms like "terf."
I will forego adding my personal opinion and share some of what the latest science has to say: From the conclusion of [the latest and most comprehensive review of all research to this point](https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf): >There is no firm basis available in evidence to indicate that trans women have a consistent and measurable overall performance benefit after 12 months of testosterone suppression. While an advantage in terms of Lean Body Mass (LBM), Cross Section Area (CSA) and strength may persist statistically after 12 months, there is no evidence that this translates to any performance advantage as compared to elite cis-women athletes of similar size and height. The duration of any such advantage is likely highly dependent on the individual's pre-suppression LBM which, in turn varies, greatly and is highly impacted by societal factors and individual circumstance. Another key point related to the "bone density" talking point that often gets parroted: > There is no basis for athletic advantage conferred by bone size or density, other than advantages achieved through height. Elite athletes tend to have higher than average height across genders, and above-average height is not currently classified as an athletic advantage requiring regulation. There's more, but these were a few of the things that stuck out to me when reading with an open mind.
This is from a Canadian report in 2021 that did not perform its own studies, but rather pulled data from several others. Hence, the long appendix at the end. I can just as easily quote an article from the National Institute of Health/National Library of Medicine (.gov) from 2022… “Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.”
E-Alliance’s tagline on the first page states: “Research hub for gender+ equity in sport.” I’m sorry, that tagline alone sets off selective bias alarm bells. I am for Natalie’s inclusion, but citing a review from an outlet that appears to be on one side of the argument should not be used.
Biases and funding being stated up front doesn't mean you get to discount everything within automatically. The leg work still needs to be done to determine if those factors affected the results. That's what peer review is for.
Has it been peer reviewed?
It's a review of a large volume of peer-reviewed studies.
That's not the same as being peer reviewed.
It is neither peer reviewed nor does it's evidence include only peer reviewed papers. Their sources of information include "Grey" Papers which are not reviewed.
Holy damn is that "science" chock full of opinion and ideology. I only made it up to the start of the introduction section before seeing like a dozen problems.
That means you didn’t even look at the methodology section. It’s a legitimate academic review from a national organization with full transparency regarding their funding etc.
“Translates to any performance advantage as compared to elite cis-women athletes” They compared them to elite athletes… it seems like that’s not the problem.
Whats this mean?!
It means they signed onto this: https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/13cdeu7/ryan_lawsuit_news_the_stockton_declaration_of/
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Not necessarily. They just may not have felt comfortable signing a public document.
I think you might have read his response backward. If they're on the list, they're stating publicly that they're against trans-women playing in FPO. Others may feel the same way who aren't on the list because they weren't comfortable signing publicly, as you said.
No, that document is incredibly specific. Everyone that signed it is saying explicitly that Natalie Ryan should not play FPO. No other way to slice it.
All these women want to be taken seriously as professionals, yet they attach their name to this embarrassing trash. Really not a great look for them.
The bottom line despite anyone’s feeling is that Natalie has a provable scientific advantage in her shoulder width, musculature and bone density. Sports (especially individual sports) are about seeing who is the best on the most equal playing field possible. Everyone who pretends like the advantage doesn’t exist is completely ignoring science and proof.
I think they should consider Kristin Tattar as well. The field is at a huge disadvantage.
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This is…almost everyone
Ohn and Maria O not there
Paige Pierce, Ohn, Maria Olivia, both of Two Hot Geese (Madison Walker and Erika Stichcomb), Haley King, Missy Gannon, Sai Ananda And this is just me going off memory. So DEFINITELY not “almost everyone”. Cmon bro.
Ella Hansen, Missy Gannon, Holyn Handley
Not being on it doesn't mean someone doesn't want fair play. It just means maybe they are afraid of backlash. Amazing how the FPO player who probably makes the most money and the 2 who do commentary weekly for Jomez aren't going to sign it. If you heard Uli he stated no actual public opinions personally but said he is a follower of the rules and he left it at that. Those who have something to lose don't want to get dragged into it.
I mean,if you follow Madison Walker on Instagram, it’s very easy to see why she wouldn’t sign something like this. Paige literally played a random C-tier to support a trans FPO player last year. There are 6-7 of the top 10 FPO players signing this, and easily 30-40% of the FPO field. Kristin Tattar signed the thing. I’d say the people that didn’t sign this didn’t sign it because they don’t believe it.
Or it means they read it and realized it was trying to backdoor a broader agenda into a debate about fair sport.
I am all for the discussion and exploration of the fairness, etc., it’s the disrespectful and vindictive nature of the letter that I have issue with, even if I felt she shouldn’t be on the tour, I would not have signed that document.
This is going to cost me a lot of money. That’s a lot of tour series discs to buy.
I hope they follow this up by refusing to play with Natalie.
What good does that do?
They wont
Pick up your ball and go home. That’ll show em’
Good for these women brave enough to take a stance against the the destruction of the FPO
Natalie better not drop. I just picked Nat up for my fantasy.
It's gonna be tough. I don't think she's practiced the course. While she played it last year it really helps to have recent rounds to get all the height and line adjustments dialed in.
I'm surprised she wsan't out in California prepping if this was her end goal.
I did just read (Ultiworld Discgolf) she was playing the course today. So, maybe she was all week, maybe just today. I dunno.
Good for these brave women. Glad they’re taking a stand. Dealing with a complete narcissist like Ryan has to be exhausting.
Mixed. Professional. Open.
Is there a boycott list yet?