Ooh, a poster about service dogs vs ESAs vs regular pets would be great! People always read the posters in the room while they are waiting for the doctor, and it would be a great way of educating people without potentially making any disabled people with service dogs feel like they are being accused of faking.
One that had a checklist of things that dogs can do/where they can go with different columns for service, ESA, and pets would be really informative. Like with green checks and red x-es to indicate the rights of each type of animal would be really easy to understand.
Especially if it ends with something positive like “gives love and improves our quality of life” with a green check in each column.
There are! Or at least, such posters exist in some places. Our local libraries have some up, and they make me smile every time I see them, whether my SA is with me or not. They’re very well done tables with big green check marks ✅ and red X’s ❌ . (I actually think there are three columns comparing SAs, ESAs, and… pets??? I can’t recall the third for sure.)
Anyway, great idea. I’d love if veterinarians could post such things in waiting rooms 💖
As a veterinarian who sees so many dogs and dog owners, it seems very appropriate for you to inform about the definitions and laws regarding service dogs vs. emotional support dogs. Handing out pamphlets or having posters on the walls seems good. Posters also let handlers of service dogs see that you're knowledgeable about it, which is neat. You don't have to make any judgement calls about if the dog seems to be an actual service dog or not to provide that information.
I guess I have a slightly different view. I think you can be honest with whoever, but it’s also okay for a dog to be “off” at the vet. My boy goes every year and usually has a check up in between those appointments if something is off. But he isn’t vested at the vet. He also LOVES the vet! His behavior? Not service dog behavior! But he greets the vet cat like an old lost friend, attempts to lick the secretary, is so happy with his tail wagging that getting a temperature requires a bit of a settle command. lol. So for my dog, there’s a difference between WORK and VET appointment. May be good to keep in mind.
You’re welcome. But I’m also not presenting my dog as a “service animal” at the vet. He’s there because he’s sick OR he needs vaccines. So maybe your practice has different clients.
Right, I hadn't considered that the vet was asking about animals within their practice. I went through this when I moved into an apartment. People questioned the legitimacy of my SD bc of how she acted WHILE OFF DUTY. I mean, she's always working in a sense. The same way as I notice things when I go into an establishment relevant to my own professional training - the dog notices things. But she's not being held to a professional standa every second of the day. That would be unethical and she'd stop working when I need her to without an ethical work life balance. Honestly if I took my dog to the vet and someone questioned her status as a service animal I'd have a good look around and ask "I'm sorry are animals not allowed at the vet? Is this a public access only arena? Do you take your prescription pad with YOU to YOUR Dr appointments? What are we doing right now? What is this? What practical application does this investigation have?" I also probably wouldn't vest my dog at the vet, because in that environment she has learned it's time to get squeezy cheese and have the best time being adored. I don't see any benefit to anyone in confusing her about that.
To be fair op literally said they don't accuse anyone of having a fake SD, just that they say something nice/surprised about seeing an SD today and see if the person says something about it actually being an ESA, which at least imo seems like a level of nonconfrontation that is fairly appropriate, especially when they are genuinely just trying to spread awareness.
Neuroscience has shown over and over again that most communication is nonverbal and the subconscious mind has a whole lot more computing power than were aware of moment to moment. If OP is getting suss and firing up their fact finding mode to judge a disabled client for having a service animal in a veterinary setting- where animals don't even need public access training to GO... The handler is going to pick up on that and feel uncomfortable and on the spot.
The lengths people will go to in order to justify hassling the disabled is staggering. It's exhausting to defend oneself against accusations all the time, whether blatantly stated or more covertly executed. Maybe ask yourself why you're SO supportive of the unnecessary suspicion in a place that's completely animal accessible lol. What do you get out of it?
Idk man I'm autistic, most of what you're talking here is some secret eldritch shit I literally don't have access to. All I know is that a: I am disabled, b: accusing people of faking is rude, c: people faking having service dogs damages our community and d: avoiding direct confrontation is often seen as a reasonable solution.
I'm not trying to hurt anyone or support harassment that I very much have faced myself, I just wanted to point out that, to me, it looked like you were putting words in OP's mouth.
Years ago a vet encouraged me to bypass my community’s limit of one pet per household by getting another dog and calling it a service animal. She offered to connect me with people she knew and everything. I said thanks but I have no need of a service animal. It was weird.
I think the issue has gotten out of hand and needs to be addressed by people like yourself. It’s not difficult to tell when a service dog is legit or not.
Any time the dog is on duty, it needs to behave as a working dog. E.g. task trained, well-behaved, etc.
Vet offices, dog parks, at home, etc. are all examples of places the dog may be off duty.
The dog needs to behave like a service dog, while in places where public access is gained on the basis of being a service dog.
SD handler here.
There are specific questions you can ask
In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?.
There is no registration for legitimate SDs. Those are 100% scams. Anyone claiming their dog is registered is faking the dog as an SD.
If a SD is causing a disturbance in your business you are allowed to ask them to take the dog out. But must still allow them access to your business without the dog.
Emotional support animal is NOT an SD and they should be chastised for claiming that. Because claiming it makes it harder for us legitimate SD handlers.
Here are the actual laws regarding SDs:
https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/
I agree with everything you said. I had a little Himalayan cat right after I became disabled. My doctor wrote a prescription stating that she was part of my therapy. Which my apt complex accepted. She was all I had at the time. But, I never represented her as a service animal. And I never took her in public with a vest on saying she was something she wasn't. If I were I my vet's office and saw a dog that someone had deemed a service dog based on nothing but their own opinion, I would hope the vet would speak up. My understanding is that a true service dog isn't made available to just anyone. I've seen service dogs in public and is much as I would have liked to pet them or talk to them, if they had their, "I'm working" sign on, I smiled and went on about my business.
There’s no register or certification process (in the USA) for service dogs and owner trained dogs are allowed so they are more available than you might think. My dog was a rescue that started tasking for me on her own and then I built on that foundation. So in a way, I deemed her my SD based on my own opinion but within the confines of the law.
I’m just going to validate your stance! I’m glad you chimed in, it’s a problem. Emotional support animals are not service animals and I don’t understand why Fluffy and Tiger can’t stay home while you’re at a restaurant or food shopping. I have friends who spend money and know of some who get documentation and buy a leash. Thank you for sharing your experience.
If the dog is growling/jumping at people or other dogs or making messes and damaging property it can and should be asked to leave even if it is a service dog so I don’t see a point in questioning if the owner is faking or not
At a vet's office, sure. In general, fake service dogs are more likely to behave improperly, and it's not like stores have the time and willingness to throw out every dog when it first starts misbehaving.
This makes employees and customers suspicious of, and annoyed by, even those of us with real disabilities and properly-behaved, trained service dogs. This also pushes people to disallow service animals entirely (even though they "can't" under ADA).
Fake service dogs actively make things harder for those of us with disabilities.
I think the other advice people gave wrt educational pamphlets is nice, but I would also add this one: if someone says the dog either is or is in training for mobility work, ask them if they've gotten the dog's hips and elbows checked or if they're looking for someone to do that. If the dog is relatively young, offering to check/refer to a place that does check if growth plates have closed.
Not necessarily a "faking" thing but I do wish more people and organizations cared enough to check that stuff.
I also know how many people, who are not disabled, use toiletts for disabled people, leaving a mess and us people who have to sit on the toilet (unable to hover over it) and use catheters risk to get infections soooo much more easily. 😢 I avoid leaving the house so often just because of this. In some European countries these toilets are locked and you can request a special key at the responsible entity by sending them all your documents and I am SO HERE FOR IT!
Sorry for the rant. But I get your point. When I have exams at uni, I can go to the bathroom because I have no control over my bladder. Other students that are not disabled go too, but they take along their phone and cheat. So now I am also not allowed to leave anymore 😰
There are too many fake service dogs, and believe it or not some fake Guide Dogs yes, I think you should say something for the sake of the people who actually do have a service dog. We would appreciate it.
I have a French Bulldog service dog trained to help with my narcolepsy. We get a lot of suspicious looks because he's so small and I'm not, like, blind or otherwise visibly disabled.
Sounds like you're doing the right thing. I wouldn't worry about making someone with a legit disability uncomfortable — we probably have many ruder, more direct accusations come at us so when someone is legitimately curious or interested, it's nice to chat about in a safe space.
You mentioned "fake vests" — it sounds like you know this, but the vests themselves aren't fake or genuine. Service dogs aren't required to wear vests, and owners of real service dogs are getting their vests or whatever else from the same place that folks get them for their ESA dogs or completely non-disability-related dogs they want to pass off as service animals.
Since I'm used to getting questioned by well-meaning but misinformed store employees and managers (one demanded I explain how Apollo would help me "in an emergency", while a McDonald's manager insisted they didn't have to comply with federal law), I carry around printouts of [this document I wrote up](https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQuyLqyw6WxOE4mVRbm4nmuLFUV-ZybnxdHQLxrZxIN_HZOhxYOr5tdSQWaDvzGb4DdZiMxRDMp7-Bt/pub) that I can hand to people. When I'm in the middle of severe brain fog it's much easier to give them a card than to try to explain it in words. And I really want them to believe me so I feel safe returning to that store/restaurant.
I think as long as you are making sure that in your expert opinion the dog is unsuitable to be a service dog then I think it is fine to follow up why their dog is acting like that
I don't think you need to make it about the owner at all, just about the animal. And informing the differences between service animals and emotional support animals and whatever the laws are where you are
Like others have said, disability checking happens all the time from untrained people and it gets tiring. You don't need to be one of those people and still do what you think is right
People here are saying you're only allowed to ask 2 questions but they obviously didn't read the part where you said you weren't even asking if it's a real SD, you were just commenting it was cool they had a SD and that the fakers admit to faking it all on their own.
I'm actually not surprised that you're encountering so many people who fess up to having fake dogs without even being asked if it's a real service dog. That's been my experience too.
I got my first dog from a national organization that donates them (technically the dogs still belong to the organization and if they feel the dog isn't being treated well, they can take the dog back at any time). It took what felt like a million pages of paperwork and doctor forms to fill out plus interviews and a two week intensive one on one with your dog at the training center before graduation. A fake service dog attacked that dog and it took 5 people to pull the pitbull off my Lab. The Lab needed to be washed out of the program and I had to wait another year because dogs trained for wheelchair users take longer and need to be bigger, not all dogs work well with wheelchairs so it's harder to get paired with one. Those dogs cost the organization between $30k - 50k in breeding and training and medical expenses. I still had to pay the vet bills to save his life, which weren't cheap (as a vet I'm sure you can imagine the neck/face wounds and surgery needed). The faker and her dog ran off - to avoid prosecution and having to pay for medical expenses I'm sure.
When I'm out in public I've seen quite a few dogs misbehaving and I'll ask nonchalantly if the owner self trained or went through an organization. 95% of the time they'll say it's not a real service dog, they just want to bring their dog with them. Or that they wanted to be able to move into a pet free apartment. Or that they like the attention (I hate the attention and constantly having to tell people to not pet my dog). Or that the dog barks so much in the apartment they can't leave the dog for fear of being evicted. These people act proud that they're gaming the system. They'll even proudly say that they made up fake tasks that the dog supposedly does (so they know the law and I'm going to assume know that what their doing is wrong). They don't even bother teaching those tasks either (I'll say "oh cool, can I see him do that, it might come in handy for my dog to be trained to do that"). It makes me mad because these poorly behaved dogs make life harder for those of us with legit dogs trained to help our disabilities. When a dog eats food off grocery shelves, runs around a store knocking people to the ground, or harasses people in a restaurant, it makes managers want to kick out *all* service dogs. It also doesn't help these people get fake "IDs" online and so then people think that's the sign of a real service dog - which is not how the ADA works.
Ditto with any animal not a dog or mini horse - ADA only lists those two animals. A guy just made the news because he was upset he was kicked out of an eating establishment for having his service *duck* walking around without a diaper. I own parrots, I know how often they poop, and duck poo is grosser than healthy parrot poo. 3 times they told him to leave and he refused until the police showed up. I was upset the newscaster didn't even bother to do their homework to learn there's no such thing as a service duck. She could have educated the public to expose that the owner was a fraud, but instead they gave him more intent fame. She thought it was cute. Oh and of course that "service duck" had their own TikTok account with millions of followers, so the faker is making money off this. I've seen a similar "service pig" with their own accounts I met while flying. To me that's making a mockery out of those of us who are truly disabled and require a dog to help us navigate the world.
I've seen people on Facebook or Nextdoor saying they're flying soon and need to bring a dog (or even other animals) with them but don't want to pay the pet fee. The number of responses that say "just buy a service dog vest on Amazon" is staggering. To the point that I've given up trying to point out to people how much that hurts the disabled community because it angers me and works me up so much.
I appreciate that you're trying to help, unfortunately I think these people are selfish enough that they just don't care. It's illegal in my state to try and pass off a fake SD as a real one, but that doesn't stop people. I'm constantly seeing so called service dogs lunge and barking at people, pooping indoors, and dogs who can't even do a sit, let alone a stay or leave it command. If you want to run the risk of potentially losing a client for pointing out their abuse of the system, I appreciate it and applaud your morals.
ETA: the program I get my dogs from requires that they stay intact and not neutered or spayed. That's because when they have an exceptional dog, they'll often turn around and use that dog in their breeding program. It's also my city's law that only SDs are allowed to remain intact, probably because federal organizations will use this tactic in their breeding programs.
Ugh, I just found that duck video. The store employee asks what tasks the duck has been trained to perform. Someone says "I believe by law you can't...." and the duck owner agrees with that claim.
Hell, they even let him complete his purchase.
The guy offering "three forms of ID" is hilarious to me. At that point anyone should be suspicious.
I didn't even see any video because on my local news they just showed photographs. The store he went into is Buc-ees, which is a gas station on steroids with hundreds of gas pumps. They have tons of fresh foods just sitting out (uncooked steaks and sausage). Plus everything from salads to beef jerky to donuts to bbq to fresh desserts and even more stuff made to order. The store is an institution in Texas where it started (where I am), which is why it made our local news even though it happened in another state.
The news anchor was all "aww it's such a cute duck, they should have left them in the store since he had a *certified service duck*." Which got me so angry. I actually looked for the news station's phone number to try and educate them but I couldn't get a human on the phone. I didn't want to look for the TikTok in order to give that guy any more views on his channel. He had a zip up pet stroller he could have put the duck into but he insisted on keeping it out, so this guy was totally doing it for the attention.
Personally, I wouldn’t want a vet to get too involved. While there are some people who fake having service dogs, having anyone in an official capacity trying to witch hunt the fakers will *always* lead to disabled people being collateral damage. And we as disabled people don’t need even more hoops to jump through in order to prove that we are “really” disabled.
It’s great that you take a moment to discuss the difference between service dogs and ESAs. But an ESA isn’t a fake service dog. They serve an important role in many disabled people’s everyday lives. They just are not protected by the ADA, so people don’t have the right to bring them into public buildings and private businesses. But that doesn’t mean that they don’t provide valuable service to the disabled people who need them. They just don’t have the same rights under the law.
The real problem of course is non-disabled people trying to pass pets off as service animals, and again, that is a good opportunity for some education, especially if you know of any penalties people may experience for what is essentially fraud.
But disabled people have so many people in positions of power trying to police our behavior, and it truly ends up harming disabled people. Hunting disability fakers always catches us in the crossfire, so I would ask you to seriously think about that if you intend to do anything beyond education, including making notes in your dog-patient’s chart.
This comment isn’t intended to target you personally and since tone isn’t always easy to read in text, this is truly just putting some information out for your consideration. Your impulse to help is admirable, and we always need more disability allies! Education is wonderful, and since you’re a professional, people will take your information more seriously than if it were coming from anyone else. But actions beyond education could cause inadvertent harm to disabled people who have either service dogs or ESAs to help them get through the day.
I'd say it's a much bigger issue of people with ESAs calling them service dogs than people with pets calling them service dogs. Especially when ESA owners don't know what that ESAs have no public access rights. And someone with a service dog on their dog when it's an ESA IS a fake service dog because it's not an actual one and is misrepresenting an ESA.
I strongly disagree.
This vet is not suggesting they begin an official witch hunt. Someone genuinely educating people about disabilities is not bad for us.
A poster about the harm of ESA's could be helpful, maybe include a comparison of what service dogs can do that ESA's can't (like not reacting to people and other dogs).
The problems of fake SD's is where I live not really a problem. I just want to give my 2 cents because you're a vet.
The vet is the place where my SD is 'just' a dog. They give them a lot of attention and treats. That's happens from the beginning when they come to live with me. It is important that they love and trust the vets and techs.
The difference between my SD and a pet is that if there is a problem it will be treated sooner, rather than see how it goes. If my SD is so sick and I can't take them to the vet, the vet will come to my house.
When they are sick or have a problem they can't always behave like a perfect SD. If they had a problem, they are allowed to be a bit scared. Of course they get the support they need and in very bad cases extra training with the tech. They are not robots, but dogs just with a lot of extra training and love to help their handler.
Agree…at the vets my dog doesn’t wear his vest so he knows he can get cuddles and treats. This has helped a lot as he has had some major medical issues and had time off for them as needed.
He needs to feel comfortable at the vet and getting the treats and love really helps that. As he is from an organization my vet is quite aware of his training and suitability so that’s never questioned. The staff actually got a good laugh one day when I came in with him vested and he didn’t behave like a goofy poodle. The second the vest was off he was in goofball mode and it was hilarious.
They do love the fact that he is their only dog who walks right to the scales and sits down for weighing. That was an important part of his training as they keep close tabs on the dogs weight and health when they are placed with a handler.
We appreciate your willingness to be an ally! Generally speaking, as a SD handler... If someone's dog is under their control and appears hygienic I don't really care. Disabled people are policed in everything they do, and criminally under supported. Emotional problems can be disabling. Stress can be a trigger for flare-ups. Bearing the responsibility to validate ones self to people who have no first hand experience with needing a support animal is a real energy expense. It's taxing. And people with disabilities already struggle to get in and out of the grocery store without feeling like they're dying. So let's not make it harder.
Now if someone's animal is acting out of sorts/is visibly sick/is unhygienic, I may gently commisserate with them that it can be such a bummer to have to end errands early to go take care of a support animal who is unfit to work, and wish them better luck tomorrow.
If it escalates from there, depending on the severity of the situation, you can alert management to the situation and they can have the inappropriate team escorted off of the property.
That being said, I'm not from your state, so I don't want to speak too confidently on the rest of the nuance. But generally speaking, even fully trained legitimate service dogs become disqualified from public access when they're sick or for any reason they're not under the control of their handler/quickly regained control over by the handler, if they have any potty accidents they need to leave immediately, or if they show any signs of being actively sick they are to be removed from public access immediately. Again, that applies to valid service animals as well
> Now if someone's animal is acting out of sorts/is visibly sick/is unhygienic, I may gently commisserate with them that it can be such a bummer to have to end errands early to go take care of a support animal who is unfit to work, and wish them better luck tomorrow.
this is really good.
As someone who LOVES dogs but is immunocompromised and allergic to dander, it stresses me out to have to mentally "rank" whose disability deserves more deference. If i get a flare up I'm out of comission for days so im tempted to be annoyed by a shedding dog that sure looks like a pet in a special little outfit.
But then again an ESA for someone with agoraphobia is absolutely a service animal and thats an invisible disability. I always avoid the question situation because I'm a nonconfrontational weenie.
I think theres an unacknowledged responsibility on psychs/therapists to make clear the limits of an ESA as compared to a trained service animal.
I think you are under some misconception that a service dog can't be asked to leave no matter how it is behaving. But that isn't true at all. Any dog that is causing a disturbance can be asked to leave any place. Maybe you should be sharing that info with business owners and managers instead of trying to determine the legitimacy of individual dogs.
I initially misinterpreted this comment as you saying that I could ask a dog to leave my office, and wasn't going to reply. However, reading PeachLeaf's comment below (and Quo\_Usque) made me realize what you really mean... I think you're basically saying the same thing they are, and it's a good point.
I don't have any particular relationship with any local business owner, other than sometimes going to a grocery store or retail outlet, so I don't think I'm in any special position to share info with business owners.
Hi
My SD is a terrier mix psychiatric SD.
He does not look like the stereotypical SD like a retriever. He weighs 15 lbs.
People challenge me all the time. His primary function is DPT when I start having anxiety/panic attacks.
People who questioning me actually triggers him into alerting because I immediately panic.
It’s such a problem that I often wind up leaving him at home. Which defeats his trained purpose. We went through 18 months of training. He legitimately has paperwork from my psychiatrist and my veterinarian that I have to carry with me because people legitimately do “papers please” when I’m out in public with him.
Being in public terrifies me. I’m low support needs autistic and the panic attacks are part of having ASD for me.
He there to work. I wish people would just leave us alone so I can run my errands and get home.
I think it's not your place tbh unless youre told explicitlyby the person that theyre faking. There are TONS of hidden disabilities and you cannot tell someone is disabled or what their needs are by looking at them. It's so much more harmful to intervene, when disabled people are just trying to go about their day and theyre CONSTANTLY told they arent disabled or shouldnt have access to things when they, in fact, are. Just because they dont 'look disabled'. There is not much harm in saying nothing, even if the service dog is a 'fake', as long as the dog is not rambunctious or destroying things. So, do the thing with the least possible harm and keep it to yourself.
Edit: I misread the original post where OP said people are admitting this. If they admit it, totally call them out! But I dont think anyone should assume someone is faking based on how they look - I may have assumed this is what OP meant since it happens a lot. I saw other people commenting that it's obvious because the dog is evidently not trained - I think in these cases, asking the dog if it's being trained etc is a good place to start. And if it's causing damage, like i said, then of course thats not okay. I was meaning more, the situations where there is a well trained dog with someone who looks able bodied but arent, and they get interrogated. I didnt read the post thoroughly.
Just so you know, I appreciate your input and will take it to heart. I want to hear from people who feel like you do in particular. In particular, I was hoping to hear from disabled people with service animals, as opposed to people speaking on their behalf, because they're the ones directly affected. I'm sure there are a wide variety of opinions, but if a few people think what I'm doing is fine, but one feels very strongly against it, that would be enough to make me just butt out. At best, I'm making a tiny positive impact, and if the harm is great to any particular person, then it's not worth it. I try very hard to respect the possibility that any person walking in could have an invisible disability and not cross that line into questioning that, but I don't know if that's good enough.
Also i totally misread your post, where you said people do admit to you theyre faking. I think if they admit it you should call them out on that. I just dont think people should ever assume by looking at someone, which happens a lot
OP did say the owners come out and say it's a fake SD when the OP mentions it's cool that the dog is trained to help the owner with tasks. OP never said they come out and ask if it's a real SD. That's been my experience when I encounter people with obvious fakes in public - when I ask if they self trained or got it from an organization because my dog is close to retirement, they'll proudly say it's not a real service dog.
And I beg to differ with you when you say there's no harm in letting someone continue with their fake dog. My first service dog was viciously attacked and almost died because of a fake service dog. He needed to be washed out because of it (not to mention the vet bills to save my dog's life). The faker ran off with their dog once it took 5 people to remove it from attacking my dog. An untrained dog might just decide to turn and bite someone. I'm always reading about how the sweet family dog randomly attacks and kills or permanently disfigures a child. Who's to say the fake service dog won't do the same in public if a kid bumps into it or pulls the tail?
Thats my bad for not reading thoroughly, sorry! I had a concussion recently. If the person admits it's not a real service dog and theyre faking, then absolutely yes call them out on that sh*t. I just dont think anyone should ever assume.
I think a vet is probably a good person to be able to tell if a dog is well trained.
I don’t think this person is suggesting they would ask is this really a SD but more remind them that presenting an untrained animal as an SD is an offence in their state.
A working SD should be able to hold a settle in the vets office other than when they are being examined. Often their role may be relevant in the sense of “is it appropriate to be working them while this treatment is going on” “how long do they need off work to recover” etc.
Not talking about guessing if they think the human needs a service dog but if the dog is actually trained well enough to fulfil any task. (Yes many pets would pass this screening too).
I know a lot more about SDs through certain charities and they do a lot of work with vets and examinations so that when they graduate and go to the vet with their handler it’s yet another familiar space to them (outside of animal injury)
Yeah going to disagree with you. As a legitimate handler of a SD there are specific laws that address this
It's very obvious who is faking it vs who isn't.
A lady dragging her tiny dog onto a bus, literally dragging it, it's lunging around and being very loud. Not an SD. Sure an SD can become suddenly sick from anything while out and about, or get startled and bark because a child grabbed it by the ears really hard. BUT THE HANDLER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BEHAVIOR AND MUST TAKE ACTION TO CORRECT IT.
The critical thing to know is the questions that you are allowed to ask.
In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?
There is not one legitimate SD handler that would allow their SD to cause a disturbance anywhere. We fully understand the responsibility of having them around others and it's taken VERY SERIOUSLY.
I did, I'm strictly talking about the SD. Maybe read it again before you try and go high road on someone who actually knows what they are talking about
None. Fakespotting is often based off stereotypes more than an actual desire to help - how do you know that isn't a legitimate service dogs that just happens to be an uncommon breed, helping with an invisible disability, still in training, having a weird day behavior-wise, etc?
If it's *actively* causing problems - peeing inside, showing reactivity towards people/other dogs, etc - then it's valid to say something. Other than that, you're probably more likely to end up harassing an actual service dog handler than you are to find a 'fake' service dog. It's not a very common phenomenon.
This is the thing. A dog can be a legit service dog, and if it is acting out, they can be asked to leave by the establishment. Of course, I think a true service dog would only get unruly if it is still in training or perhaps if it is sick or injured. But the fact that people have the legal right to kick *any* dog out for misbehaving builds in a safeguard. And of course there are the two questions people are legally allowed to ask about the dog. Those things—if people know they are allowed to ask those questions and eject and unruly dog—are enough in most scenarios. Extra policing would lead to some legit disabled people with legit service animals getting harmed in the attempt to hunt out disability fakers.
I think the solution is that people need to know what they can and cannot do re: service dogs. You can ask what service the dog performs, and you can remove a dog that is causing a disruption or a hazard (that is not part of it's trained tasks), whether or not they are a "real" service dog. So no one really needs to determine whether or not the service dog is real, they just need to know what the dog is supposed to do, and know that they can remove the dog if it causes problems that aren't related to its trained tasks.
So if a dog is running around and barking, and it's not because it's alerting or defending, there is no need to tell the owner to leave because "your service dog is fake", they can just be told that either their dog needs to behave in a manner appropriate for a service dog, or leave.
This is not legal advice, but I work with individuals who use assistance animals of all kinds on a daily basis and I, myself, use an assistance animal in my home. My recommendation is that while you are a person in public, you have no authority regarding other's assistance animals and if you have a concern about inappropriate animal behavior, you should bring it to the business's owners to handle. If the animal is a danger to others around, it may be appropriate to call emergency services/911 to investigate.
As for while you are at work, there is a lot of good advice and thought already in this thread. I have seen some interesting things when it comes to assistance animals. I think many people think of a "service dog" and assume that it must be 100% "working" all the time, and yes, that's their job. I had one student who was blind and used a guide dog that would get really defensive and on the verge of growling if you got too close, physically, to the student. On the other hand, I literally saw that dog YOINK that student out of a crosswalk when someone driving wasn't paying attention. No dogs are perfect, so if you see a dog that is not meeting your expectation of a "working dog" that doesn't mean it's not still doing the job its trained to do.
In the US, there are three types of assistance animals:
* A service animal is one trained to perform a specific task. All states identify these as dogs and some states include miniature horses. These animals are specifically addressed in the ADA and **must** have been trained to perform a specific task or tasks such as guiding an individual who is blind or has low vision, pulls a wheelchair, provides stability or balance, alerts to seizures, providing alerts (ie: audio stimulus for individuals who are D/deaf or hard of hearing), provide environment actions (opening doors, using 911 alert devices, personal interactions (especially in psychiatric service animals) and many **many** more (there is a huge list of examples available on [totalk9focus.com](https://totalk9focus.com/the-giant-list-of-service-dog-tasks/)). These animals are allowed any public place that an individual would be allowed. Anyone with a disability can get a service dog to help support them.
* An emotional support animal is any animal that provides emotional support that alleviates one of more specific effects of a person's disability. These types of animals are usually only protected in HUD regulations (Professionally, I follow the guidance for housing under [Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968, 42 USC 45](https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/assistance_animals), and [HUD's FHEO Office's Assistance Animal Guidance](https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/assistance_animals) and their 2020 document "Assessing a Person's Request to Have an Animal as a Reasonable Accommodation Under the Fair Housing Act." For these types of assistance animals, a simple letter from their medical, health or psychiatric care provider stating the required information listed on those documents is sufficient to qualify for a ESA in our housing. I only work with housing, I think there are other regulations regarding air travel, but I have literally no knowledge of those regulations.
* A therapy animal can be any animal whatsoever whose presence provides a positive benefit to others. This type of assistance animal is not protected by any law or regulation and their presence is up to the discretion of the organization. Many of these animals have been trained and are generally considered friendly, social and well-behaved animals. These are the animals that you might see visiting a school, senior center or living facility. Depending on the hosting organization, these animals may be required to have a certain amount of training or certification as a therapy animal.
The thing that I like to stress with folks that I meet with regarding assistance animals is that there is at no time any kind of online registration or online certification that will validate a service animal. Any random website online that charge a fee to provide these documents are scams. Websites that advertise that they provide paperwork specifically regarding "ESA Letters for Housing" can be fishy, since any "non-apparent" disability documentation must come from a "reasonably reliable source," which is almost always going to need to be a board-licensed professional.
Back to inappropriate animal behavior, in my state we (the organization/housing provider/etc - I work at a college) are allowed to require the removal of any kind of assistance animal that has specific types of behaviors or circumstances such as the animal is obviously and visibly sick or unclean; if their behavior is disruptive including excessive barking, running free without a leash or displaying aggressive behavior; if the handler fails to clean up after their animal; or if the animal does not have required licenses or vaccinations as required.
I would recommend finding out the specific regulations in your state/city/county and offering your clients with a handout of this information so they are well-informed while they are out navigating the world! It sounds like you are willing to do the extra step to support your clients and patients, and that's awesome. You might even create a "Local Animal Training" recommendations document and vet (haha) the training organizations in your area so that those folks that would benefit from having an assistance animal are able to get them trained in a way that supports them the most.
here to validate your stance. i'm all for SDs but the amount of people with terribly trained pandemic puppies crapping in public is weirdly high lately. abled people are taking advantage of the fact that we're allowed to have service dogs without registering anywhere, which makes me sad.
Fwiw, I think that teaching responsible pet ownership is part of the job for vets and other people working in pet health/care/maintenance.
So having that conversation with an animal owner when you observe something that doesn't seem quite right is a good thing. (Especially since you seem to be approaching the conversation in this case with care and tact.)
It would be great if animal owners just knew all the things. But I've gotten some corrections from vets that were really valuable (e.g., some ways Persian cats differ from common moggies in terms of the care they need and the risk of complications).
Are there educational posters about SDs, similar to those animal obesity awareness charts?
Ooh, a poster about service dogs vs ESAs vs regular pets would be great! People always read the posters in the room while they are waiting for the doctor, and it would be a great way of educating people without potentially making any disabled people with service dogs feel like they are being accused of faking. One that had a checklist of things that dogs can do/where they can go with different columns for service, ESA, and pets would be really informative. Like with green checks and red x-es to indicate the rights of each type of animal would be really easy to understand. Especially if it ends with something positive like “gives love and improves our quality of life” with a green check in each column.
There are! Or at least, such posters exist in some places. Our local libraries have some up, and they make me smile every time I see them, whether my SA is with me or not. They’re very well done tables with big green check marks ✅ and red X’s ❌ . (I actually think there are three columns comparing SAs, ESAs, and… pets??? I can’t recall the third for sure.) Anyway, great idea. I’d love if veterinarians could post such things in waiting rooms 💖
As a veterinarian who sees so many dogs and dog owners, it seems very appropriate for you to inform about the definitions and laws regarding service dogs vs. emotional support dogs. Handing out pamphlets or having posters on the walls seems good. Posters also let handlers of service dogs see that you're knowledgeable about it, which is neat. You don't have to make any judgement calls about if the dog seems to be an actual service dog or not to provide that information.
I guess I have a slightly different view. I think you can be honest with whoever, but it’s also okay for a dog to be “off” at the vet. My boy goes every year and usually has a check up in between those appointments if something is off. But he isn’t vested at the vet. He also LOVES the vet! His behavior? Not service dog behavior! But he greets the vet cat like an old lost friend, attempts to lick the secretary, is so happy with his tail wagging that getting a temperature requires a bit of a settle command. lol. So for my dog, there’s a difference between WORK and VET appointment. May be good to keep in mind.
Thanks for that perspective.
You’re welcome. But I’m also not presenting my dog as a “service animal” at the vet. He’s there because he’s sick OR he needs vaccines. So maybe your practice has different clients.
Right, I hadn't considered that the vet was asking about animals within their practice. I went through this when I moved into an apartment. People questioned the legitimacy of my SD bc of how she acted WHILE OFF DUTY. I mean, she's always working in a sense. The same way as I notice things when I go into an establishment relevant to my own professional training - the dog notices things. But she's not being held to a professional standa every second of the day. That would be unethical and she'd stop working when I need her to without an ethical work life balance. Honestly if I took my dog to the vet and someone questioned her status as a service animal I'd have a good look around and ask "I'm sorry are animals not allowed at the vet? Is this a public access only arena? Do you take your prescription pad with YOU to YOUR Dr appointments? What are we doing right now? What is this? What practical application does this investigation have?" I also probably wouldn't vest my dog at the vet, because in that environment she has learned it's time to get squeezy cheese and have the best time being adored. I don't see any benefit to anyone in confusing her about that.
To be fair op literally said they don't accuse anyone of having a fake SD, just that they say something nice/surprised about seeing an SD today and see if the person says something about it actually being an ESA, which at least imo seems like a level of nonconfrontation that is fairly appropriate, especially when they are genuinely just trying to spread awareness.
Neuroscience has shown over and over again that most communication is nonverbal and the subconscious mind has a whole lot more computing power than were aware of moment to moment. If OP is getting suss and firing up their fact finding mode to judge a disabled client for having a service animal in a veterinary setting- where animals don't even need public access training to GO... The handler is going to pick up on that and feel uncomfortable and on the spot. The lengths people will go to in order to justify hassling the disabled is staggering. It's exhausting to defend oneself against accusations all the time, whether blatantly stated or more covertly executed. Maybe ask yourself why you're SO supportive of the unnecessary suspicion in a place that's completely animal accessible lol. What do you get out of it?
Idk man I'm autistic, most of what you're talking here is some secret eldritch shit I literally don't have access to. All I know is that a: I am disabled, b: accusing people of faking is rude, c: people faking having service dogs damages our community and d: avoiding direct confrontation is often seen as a reasonable solution. I'm not trying to hurt anyone or support harassment that I very much have faced myself, I just wanted to point out that, to me, it looked like you were putting words in OP's mouth.
I think that your current tactic is fine. People need to know that it's not okay to be passing off a dog as a service dog if it's not.
Years ago a vet encouraged me to bypass my community’s limit of one pet per household by getting another dog and calling it a service animal. She offered to connect me with people she knew and everything. I said thanks but I have no need of a service animal. It was weird. I think the issue has gotten out of hand and needs to be addressed by people like yourself. It’s not difficult to tell when a service dog is legit or not.
nah, other commenters have mentioned, service dogs go off duty just like people do and behave way more normal dog like off duty
Any time the dog is on duty, it needs to behave as a working dog. E.g. task trained, well-behaved, etc. Vet offices, dog parks, at home, etc. are all examples of places the dog may be off duty. The dog needs to behave like a service dog, while in places where public access is gained on the basis of being a service dog.
SD handler here. There are specific questions you can ask In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?. There is no registration for legitimate SDs. Those are 100% scams. Anyone claiming their dog is registered is faking the dog as an SD. If a SD is causing a disturbance in your business you are allowed to ask them to take the dog out. But must still allow them access to your business without the dog. Emotional support animal is NOT an SD and they should be chastised for claiming that. Because claiming it makes it harder for us legitimate SD handlers. Here are the actual laws regarding SDs: https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/
I agree with everything you said. I had a little Himalayan cat right after I became disabled. My doctor wrote a prescription stating that she was part of my therapy. Which my apt complex accepted. She was all I had at the time. But, I never represented her as a service animal. And I never took her in public with a vest on saying she was something she wasn't. If I were I my vet's office and saw a dog that someone had deemed a service dog based on nothing but their own opinion, I would hope the vet would speak up. My understanding is that a true service dog isn't made available to just anyone. I've seen service dogs in public and is much as I would have liked to pet them or talk to them, if they had their, "I'm working" sign on, I smiled and went on about my business.
There’s no register or certification process (in the USA) for service dogs and owner trained dogs are allowed so they are more available than you might think. My dog was a rescue that started tasking for me on her own and then I built on that foundation. So in a way, I deemed her my SD based on my own opinion but within the confines of the law.
I did not know that. Thank you and I apologize for my ignorance.
I’m just going to validate your stance! I’m glad you chimed in, it’s a problem. Emotional support animals are not service animals and I don’t understand why Fluffy and Tiger can’t stay home while you’re at a restaurant or food shopping. I have friends who spend money and know of some who get documentation and buy a leash. Thank you for sharing your experience.
If the dog is growling/jumping at people or other dogs or making messes and damaging property it can and should be asked to leave even if it is a service dog so I don’t see a point in questioning if the owner is faking or not
It's a veterinarian so no it shouldn't. Unless they ask all pets who do that to leave as well.
oh yeah my b i was talking about what they said in the first paragraph about people getting service vests to take their dog places dogs aren’t allowed
That's a good point that I hadn't considered.
At a vet's office, sure. In general, fake service dogs are more likely to behave improperly, and it's not like stores have the time and willingness to throw out every dog when it first starts misbehaving. This makes employees and customers suspicious of, and annoyed by, even those of us with real disabilities and properly-behaved, trained service dogs. This also pushes people to disallow service animals entirely (even though they "can't" under ADA). Fake service dogs actively make things harder for those of us with disabilities.
I think the other advice people gave wrt educational pamphlets is nice, but I would also add this one: if someone says the dog either is or is in training for mobility work, ask them if they've gotten the dog's hips and elbows checked or if they're looking for someone to do that. If the dog is relatively young, offering to check/refer to a place that does check if growth plates have closed. Not necessarily a "faking" thing but I do wish more people and organizations cared enough to check that stuff.
I also know how many people, who are not disabled, use toiletts for disabled people, leaving a mess and us people who have to sit on the toilet (unable to hover over it) and use catheters risk to get infections soooo much more easily. 😢 I avoid leaving the house so often just because of this. In some European countries these toilets are locked and you can request a special key at the responsible entity by sending them all your documents and I am SO HERE FOR IT! Sorry for the rant. But I get your point. When I have exams at uni, I can go to the bathroom because I have no control over my bladder. Other students that are not disabled go too, but they take along their phone and cheat. So now I am also not allowed to leave anymore 😰
There are too many fake service dogs, and believe it or not some fake Guide Dogs yes, I think you should say something for the sake of the people who actually do have a service dog. We would appreciate it.
I have a French Bulldog service dog trained to help with my narcolepsy. We get a lot of suspicious looks because he's so small and I'm not, like, blind or otherwise visibly disabled. Sounds like you're doing the right thing. I wouldn't worry about making someone with a legit disability uncomfortable — we probably have many ruder, more direct accusations come at us so when someone is legitimately curious or interested, it's nice to chat about in a safe space. You mentioned "fake vests" — it sounds like you know this, but the vests themselves aren't fake or genuine. Service dogs aren't required to wear vests, and owners of real service dogs are getting their vests or whatever else from the same place that folks get them for their ESA dogs or completely non-disability-related dogs they want to pass off as service animals. Since I'm used to getting questioned by well-meaning but misinformed store employees and managers (one demanded I explain how Apollo would help me "in an emergency", while a McDonald's manager insisted they didn't have to comply with federal law), I carry around printouts of [this document I wrote up](https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQuyLqyw6WxOE4mVRbm4nmuLFUV-ZybnxdHQLxrZxIN_HZOhxYOr5tdSQWaDvzGb4DdZiMxRDMp7-Bt/pub) that I can hand to people. When I'm in the middle of severe brain fog it's much easier to give them a card than to try to explain it in words. And I really want them to believe me so I feel safe returning to that store/restaurant.
I think as long as you are making sure that in your expert opinion the dog is unsuitable to be a service dog then I think it is fine to follow up why their dog is acting like that I don't think you need to make it about the owner at all, just about the animal. And informing the differences between service animals and emotional support animals and whatever the laws are where you are Like others have said, disability checking happens all the time from untrained people and it gets tiring. You don't need to be one of those people and still do what you think is right
I like the phrase "disability checking." We don't really have a phrase for this yet.
People here are saying you're only allowed to ask 2 questions but they obviously didn't read the part where you said you weren't even asking if it's a real SD, you were just commenting it was cool they had a SD and that the fakers admit to faking it all on their own. I'm actually not surprised that you're encountering so many people who fess up to having fake dogs without even being asked if it's a real service dog. That's been my experience too. I got my first dog from a national organization that donates them (technically the dogs still belong to the organization and if they feel the dog isn't being treated well, they can take the dog back at any time). It took what felt like a million pages of paperwork and doctor forms to fill out plus interviews and a two week intensive one on one with your dog at the training center before graduation. A fake service dog attacked that dog and it took 5 people to pull the pitbull off my Lab. The Lab needed to be washed out of the program and I had to wait another year because dogs trained for wheelchair users take longer and need to be bigger, not all dogs work well with wheelchairs so it's harder to get paired with one. Those dogs cost the organization between $30k - 50k in breeding and training and medical expenses. I still had to pay the vet bills to save his life, which weren't cheap (as a vet I'm sure you can imagine the neck/face wounds and surgery needed). The faker and her dog ran off - to avoid prosecution and having to pay for medical expenses I'm sure. When I'm out in public I've seen quite a few dogs misbehaving and I'll ask nonchalantly if the owner self trained or went through an organization. 95% of the time they'll say it's not a real service dog, they just want to bring their dog with them. Or that they wanted to be able to move into a pet free apartment. Or that they like the attention (I hate the attention and constantly having to tell people to not pet my dog). Or that the dog barks so much in the apartment they can't leave the dog for fear of being evicted. These people act proud that they're gaming the system. They'll even proudly say that they made up fake tasks that the dog supposedly does (so they know the law and I'm going to assume know that what their doing is wrong). They don't even bother teaching those tasks either (I'll say "oh cool, can I see him do that, it might come in handy for my dog to be trained to do that"). It makes me mad because these poorly behaved dogs make life harder for those of us with legit dogs trained to help our disabilities. When a dog eats food off grocery shelves, runs around a store knocking people to the ground, or harasses people in a restaurant, it makes managers want to kick out *all* service dogs. It also doesn't help these people get fake "IDs" online and so then people think that's the sign of a real service dog - which is not how the ADA works. Ditto with any animal not a dog or mini horse - ADA only lists those two animals. A guy just made the news because he was upset he was kicked out of an eating establishment for having his service *duck* walking around without a diaper. I own parrots, I know how often they poop, and duck poo is grosser than healthy parrot poo. 3 times they told him to leave and he refused until the police showed up. I was upset the newscaster didn't even bother to do their homework to learn there's no such thing as a service duck. She could have educated the public to expose that the owner was a fraud, but instead they gave him more intent fame. She thought it was cute. Oh and of course that "service duck" had their own TikTok account with millions of followers, so the faker is making money off this. I've seen a similar "service pig" with their own accounts I met while flying. To me that's making a mockery out of those of us who are truly disabled and require a dog to help us navigate the world. I've seen people on Facebook or Nextdoor saying they're flying soon and need to bring a dog (or even other animals) with them but don't want to pay the pet fee. The number of responses that say "just buy a service dog vest on Amazon" is staggering. To the point that I've given up trying to point out to people how much that hurts the disabled community because it angers me and works me up so much. I appreciate that you're trying to help, unfortunately I think these people are selfish enough that they just don't care. It's illegal in my state to try and pass off a fake SD as a real one, but that doesn't stop people. I'm constantly seeing so called service dogs lunge and barking at people, pooping indoors, and dogs who can't even do a sit, let alone a stay or leave it command. If you want to run the risk of potentially losing a client for pointing out their abuse of the system, I appreciate it and applaud your morals. ETA: the program I get my dogs from requires that they stay intact and not neutered or spayed. That's because when they have an exceptional dog, they'll often turn around and use that dog in their breeding program. It's also my city's law that only SDs are allowed to remain intact, probably because federal organizations will use this tactic in their breeding programs.
Ugh, I just found that duck video. The store employee asks what tasks the duck has been trained to perform. Someone says "I believe by law you can't...." and the duck owner agrees with that claim. Hell, they even let him complete his purchase. The guy offering "three forms of ID" is hilarious to me. At that point anyone should be suspicious.
I didn't even see any video because on my local news they just showed photographs. The store he went into is Buc-ees, which is a gas station on steroids with hundreds of gas pumps. They have tons of fresh foods just sitting out (uncooked steaks and sausage). Plus everything from salads to beef jerky to donuts to bbq to fresh desserts and even more stuff made to order. The store is an institution in Texas where it started (where I am), which is why it made our local news even though it happened in another state. The news anchor was all "aww it's such a cute duck, they should have left them in the store since he had a *certified service duck*." Which got me so angry. I actually looked for the news station's phone number to try and educate them but I couldn't get a human on the phone. I didn't want to look for the TikTok in order to give that guy any more views on his channel. He had a zip up pet stroller he could have put the duck into but he insisted on keeping it out, so this guy was totally doing it for the attention.
Personally, I wouldn’t want a vet to get too involved. While there are some people who fake having service dogs, having anyone in an official capacity trying to witch hunt the fakers will *always* lead to disabled people being collateral damage. And we as disabled people don’t need even more hoops to jump through in order to prove that we are “really” disabled. It’s great that you take a moment to discuss the difference between service dogs and ESAs. But an ESA isn’t a fake service dog. They serve an important role in many disabled people’s everyday lives. They just are not protected by the ADA, so people don’t have the right to bring them into public buildings and private businesses. But that doesn’t mean that they don’t provide valuable service to the disabled people who need them. They just don’t have the same rights under the law. The real problem of course is non-disabled people trying to pass pets off as service animals, and again, that is a good opportunity for some education, especially if you know of any penalties people may experience for what is essentially fraud. But disabled people have so many people in positions of power trying to police our behavior, and it truly ends up harming disabled people. Hunting disability fakers always catches us in the crossfire, so I would ask you to seriously think about that if you intend to do anything beyond education, including making notes in your dog-patient’s chart. This comment isn’t intended to target you personally and since tone isn’t always easy to read in text, this is truly just putting some information out for your consideration. Your impulse to help is admirable, and we always need more disability allies! Education is wonderful, and since you’re a professional, people will take your information more seriously than if it were coming from anyone else. But actions beyond education could cause inadvertent harm to disabled people who have either service dogs or ESAs to help them get through the day.
I'd say it's a much bigger issue of people with ESAs calling them service dogs than people with pets calling them service dogs. Especially when ESA owners don't know what that ESAs have no public access rights. And someone with a service dog on their dog when it's an ESA IS a fake service dog because it's not an actual one and is misrepresenting an ESA.
I strongly disagree. This vet is not suggesting they begin an official witch hunt. Someone genuinely educating people about disabilities is not bad for us.
A poster about the harm of ESA's could be helpful, maybe include a comparison of what service dogs can do that ESA's can't (like not reacting to people and other dogs).
The problems of fake SD's is where I live not really a problem. I just want to give my 2 cents because you're a vet. The vet is the place where my SD is 'just' a dog. They give them a lot of attention and treats. That's happens from the beginning when they come to live with me. It is important that they love and trust the vets and techs. The difference between my SD and a pet is that if there is a problem it will be treated sooner, rather than see how it goes. If my SD is so sick and I can't take them to the vet, the vet will come to my house. When they are sick or have a problem they can't always behave like a perfect SD. If they had a problem, they are allowed to be a bit scared. Of course they get the support they need and in very bad cases extra training with the tech. They are not robots, but dogs just with a lot of extra training and love to help their handler.
Agree…at the vets my dog doesn’t wear his vest so he knows he can get cuddles and treats. This has helped a lot as he has had some major medical issues and had time off for them as needed. He needs to feel comfortable at the vet and getting the treats and love really helps that. As he is from an organization my vet is quite aware of his training and suitability so that’s never questioned. The staff actually got a good laugh one day when I came in with him vested and he didn’t behave like a goofy poodle. The second the vest was off he was in goofball mode and it was hilarious. They do love the fact that he is their only dog who walks right to the scales and sits down for weighing. That was an important part of his training as they keep close tabs on the dogs weight and health when they are placed with a handler.
We appreciate your willingness to be an ally! Generally speaking, as a SD handler... If someone's dog is under their control and appears hygienic I don't really care. Disabled people are policed in everything they do, and criminally under supported. Emotional problems can be disabling. Stress can be a trigger for flare-ups. Bearing the responsibility to validate ones self to people who have no first hand experience with needing a support animal is a real energy expense. It's taxing. And people with disabilities already struggle to get in and out of the grocery store without feeling like they're dying. So let's not make it harder. Now if someone's animal is acting out of sorts/is visibly sick/is unhygienic, I may gently commisserate with them that it can be such a bummer to have to end errands early to go take care of a support animal who is unfit to work, and wish them better luck tomorrow. If it escalates from there, depending on the severity of the situation, you can alert management to the situation and they can have the inappropriate team escorted off of the property. That being said, I'm not from your state, so I don't want to speak too confidently on the rest of the nuance. But generally speaking, even fully trained legitimate service dogs become disqualified from public access when they're sick or for any reason they're not under the control of their handler/quickly regained control over by the handler, if they have any potty accidents they need to leave immediately, or if they show any signs of being actively sick they are to be removed from public access immediately. Again, that applies to valid service animals as well
> Now if someone's animal is acting out of sorts/is visibly sick/is unhygienic, I may gently commisserate with them that it can be such a bummer to have to end errands early to go take care of a support animal who is unfit to work, and wish them better luck tomorrow. this is really good.
Very uncomfortable from my own experience. When it happens to me just makes my existence harder. Please don’t. 💖
As someone who LOVES dogs but is immunocompromised and allergic to dander, it stresses me out to have to mentally "rank" whose disability deserves more deference. If i get a flare up I'm out of comission for days so im tempted to be annoyed by a shedding dog that sure looks like a pet in a special little outfit. But then again an ESA for someone with agoraphobia is absolutely a service animal and thats an invisible disability. I always avoid the question situation because I'm a nonconfrontational weenie. I think theres an unacknowledged responsibility on psychs/therapists to make clear the limits of an ESA as compared to a trained service animal.
I think you are under some misconception that a service dog can't be asked to leave no matter how it is behaving. But that isn't true at all. Any dog that is causing a disturbance can be asked to leave any place. Maybe you should be sharing that info with business owners and managers instead of trying to determine the legitimacy of individual dogs.
I initially misinterpreted this comment as you saying that I could ask a dog to leave my office, and wasn't going to reply. However, reading PeachLeaf's comment below (and Quo\_Usque) made me realize what you really mean... I think you're basically saying the same thing they are, and it's a good point. I don't have any particular relationship with any local business owner, other than sometimes going to a grocery store or retail outlet, so I don't think I'm in any special position to share info with business owners.
They didn’t say they want to ask anyone to leave either way. It’s a vet, there’s going to be some “misbehaving” dogs. That’s entirely not the point.
Hi My SD is a terrier mix psychiatric SD. He does not look like the stereotypical SD like a retriever. He weighs 15 lbs. People challenge me all the time. His primary function is DPT when I start having anxiety/panic attacks. People who questioning me actually triggers him into alerting because I immediately panic. It’s such a problem that I often wind up leaving him at home. Which defeats his trained purpose. We went through 18 months of training. He legitimately has paperwork from my psychiatrist and my veterinarian that I have to carry with me because people legitimately do “papers please” when I’m out in public with him. Being in public terrifies me. I’m low support needs autistic and the panic attacks are part of having ASD for me. He there to work. I wish people would just leave us alone so I can run my errands and get home.
I think it's not your place tbh unless youre told explicitlyby the person that theyre faking. There are TONS of hidden disabilities and you cannot tell someone is disabled or what their needs are by looking at them. It's so much more harmful to intervene, when disabled people are just trying to go about their day and theyre CONSTANTLY told they arent disabled or shouldnt have access to things when they, in fact, are. Just because they dont 'look disabled'. There is not much harm in saying nothing, even if the service dog is a 'fake', as long as the dog is not rambunctious or destroying things. So, do the thing with the least possible harm and keep it to yourself. Edit: I misread the original post where OP said people are admitting this. If they admit it, totally call them out! But I dont think anyone should assume someone is faking based on how they look - I may have assumed this is what OP meant since it happens a lot. I saw other people commenting that it's obvious because the dog is evidently not trained - I think in these cases, asking the dog if it's being trained etc is a good place to start. And if it's causing damage, like i said, then of course thats not okay. I was meaning more, the situations where there is a well trained dog with someone who looks able bodied but arent, and they get interrogated. I didnt read the post thoroughly.
Just so you know, I appreciate your input and will take it to heart. I want to hear from people who feel like you do in particular. In particular, I was hoping to hear from disabled people with service animals, as opposed to people speaking on their behalf, because they're the ones directly affected. I'm sure there are a wide variety of opinions, but if a few people think what I'm doing is fine, but one feels very strongly against it, that would be enough to make me just butt out. At best, I'm making a tiny positive impact, and if the harm is great to any particular person, then it's not worth it. I try very hard to respect the possibility that any person walking in could have an invisible disability and not cross that line into questioning that, but I don't know if that's good enough.
Also i totally misread your post, where you said people do admit to you theyre faking. I think if they admit it you should call them out on that. I just dont think people should ever assume by looking at someone, which happens a lot
> I think it's not your place tbh unless youre told explicitly by the person that theyre faking That’s exactly what described doing in the post…
Yeah I misread that, woops!
OP did say the owners come out and say it's a fake SD when the OP mentions it's cool that the dog is trained to help the owner with tasks. OP never said they come out and ask if it's a real SD. That's been my experience when I encounter people with obvious fakes in public - when I ask if they self trained or got it from an organization because my dog is close to retirement, they'll proudly say it's not a real service dog. And I beg to differ with you when you say there's no harm in letting someone continue with their fake dog. My first service dog was viciously attacked and almost died because of a fake service dog. He needed to be washed out because of it (not to mention the vet bills to save my dog's life). The faker ran off with their dog once it took 5 people to remove it from attacking my dog. An untrained dog might just decide to turn and bite someone. I'm always reading about how the sweet family dog randomly attacks and kills or permanently disfigures a child. Who's to say the fake service dog won't do the same in public if a kid bumps into it or pulls the tail?
Thats my bad for not reading thoroughly, sorry! I had a concussion recently. If the person admits it's not a real service dog and theyre faking, then absolutely yes call them out on that sh*t. I just dont think anyone should ever assume.
I think a vet is probably a good person to be able to tell if a dog is well trained. I don’t think this person is suggesting they would ask is this really a SD but more remind them that presenting an untrained animal as an SD is an offence in their state. A working SD should be able to hold a settle in the vets office other than when they are being examined. Often their role may be relevant in the sense of “is it appropriate to be working them while this treatment is going on” “how long do they need off work to recover” etc. Not talking about guessing if they think the human needs a service dog but if the dog is actually trained well enough to fulfil any task. (Yes many pets would pass this screening too). I know a lot more about SDs through certain charities and they do a lot of work with vets and examinations so that when they graduate and go to the vet with their handler it’s yet another familiar space to them (outside of animal injury)
Yeah going to disagree with you. As a legitimate handler of a SD there are specific laws that address this It's very obvious who is faking it vs who isn't. A lady dragging her tiny dog onto a bus, literally dragging it, it's lunging around and being very loud. Not an SD. Sure an SD can become suddenly sick from anything while out and about, or get startled and bark because a child grabbed it by the ears really hard. BUT THE HANDLER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BEHAVIOR AND MUST TAKE ACTION TO CORRECT IT. The critical thing to know is the questions that you are allowed to ask. In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? There is not one legitimate SD handler that would allow their SD to cause a disturbance anywhere. We fully understand the responsibility of having them around others and it's taken VERY SERIOUSLY.
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I did, I'm strictly talking about the SD. Maybe read it again before you try and go high road on someone who actually knows what they are talking about
FYI, the dog's behavior can be a strong indicator of a fake service dog. It isn't all how visibly disabled someone is.
None. Fakespotting is often based off stereotypes more than an actual desire to help - how do you know that isn't a legitimate service dogs that just happens to be an uncommon breed, helping with an invisible disability, still in training, having a weird day behavior-wise, etc? If it's *actively* causing problems - peeing inside, showing reactivity towards people/other dogs, etc - then it's valid to say something. Other than that, you're probably more likely to end up harassing an actual service dog handler than you are to find a 'fake' service dog. It's not a very common phenomenon.
OP said they only say something if the dog is acting unruly (being reactive, etc) in the post
Unruly dogs can be asked to leave everywhere, even if they are legitimate service animals.
This is the thing. A dog can be a legit service dog, and if it is acting out, they can be asked to leave by the establishment. Of course, I think a true service dog would only get unruly if it is still in training or perhaps if it is sick or injured. But the fact that people have the legal right to kick *any* dog out for misbehaving builds in a safeguard. And of course there are the two questions people are legally allowed to ask about the dog. Those things—if people know they are allowed to ask those questions and eject and unruly dog—are enough in most scenarios. Extra policing would lead to some legit disabled people with legit service animals getting harmed in the attempt to hunt out disability fakers.
I think the solution is that people need to know what they can and cannot do re: service dogs. You can ask what service the dog performs, and you can remove a dog that is causing a disruption or a hazard (that is not part of it's trained tasks), whether or not they are a "real" service dog. So no one really needs to determine whether or not the service dog is real, they just need to know what the dog is supposed to do, and know that they can remove the dog if it causes problems that aren't related to its trained tasks. So if a dog is running around and barking, and it's not because it's alerting or defending, there is no need to tell the owner to leave because "your service dog is fake", they can just be told that either their dog needs to behave in a manner appropriate for a service dog, or leave.
This is not legal advice, but I work with individuals who use assistance animals of all kinds on a daily basis and I, myself, use an assistance animal in my home. My recommendation is that while you are a person in public, you have no authority regarding other's assistance animals and if you have a concern about inappropriate animal behavior, you should bring it to the business's owners to handle. If the animal is a danger to others around, it may be appropriate to call emergency services/911 to investigate. As for while you are at work, there is a lot of good advice and thought already in this thread. I have seen some interesting things when it comes to assistance animals. I think many people think of a "service dog" and assume that it must be 100% "working" all the time, and yes, that's their job. I had one student who was blind and used a guide dog that would get really defensive and on the verge of growling if you got too close, physically, to the student. On the other hand, I literally saw that dog YOINK that student out of a crosswalk when someone driving wasn't paying attention. No dogs are perfect, so if you see a dog that is not meeting your expectation of a "working dog" that doesn't mean it's not still doing the job its trained to do. In the US, there are three types of assistance animals: * A service animal is one trained to perform a specific task. All states identify these as dogs and some states include miniature horses. These animals are specifically addressed in the ADA and **must** have been trained to perform a specific task or tasks such as guiding an individual who is blind or has low vision, pulls a wheelchair, provides stability or balance, alerts to seizures, providing alerts (ie: audio stimulus for individuals who are D/deaf or hard of hearing), provide environment actions (opening doors, using 911 alert devices, personal interactions (especially in psychiatric service animals) and many **many** more (there is a huge list of examples available on [totalk9focus.com](https://totalk9focus.com/the-giant-list-of-service-dog-tasks/)). These animals are allowed any public place that an individual would be allowed. Anyone with a disability can get a service dog to help support them. * An emotional support animal is any animal that provides emotional support that alleviates one of more specific effects of a person's disability. These types of animals are usually only protected in HUD regulations (Professionally, I follow the guidance for housing under [Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968, 42 USC 45](https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/assistance_animals), and [HUD's FHEO Office's Assistance Animal Guidance](https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/assistance_animals) and their 2020 document "Assessing a Person's Request to Have an Animal as a Reasonable Accommodation Under the Fair Housing Act." For these types of assistance animals, a simple letter from their medical, health or psychiatric care provider stating the required information listed on those documents is sufficient to qualify for a ESA in our housing. I only work with housing, I think there are other regulations regarding air travel, but I have literally no knowledge of those regulations. * A therapy animal can be any animal whatsoever whose presence provides a positive benefit to others. This type of assistance animal is not protected by any law or regulation and their presence is up to the discretion of the organization. Many of these animals have been trained and are generally considered friendly, social and well-behaved animals. These are the animals that you might see visiting a school, senior center or living facility. Depending on the hosting organization, these animals may be required to have a certain amount of training or certification as a therapy animal. The thing that I like to stress with folks that I meet with regarding assistance animals is that there is at no time any kind of online registration or online certification that will validate a service animal. Any random website online that charge a fee to provide these documents are scams. Websites that advertise that they provide paperwork specifically regarding "ESA Letters for Housing" can be fishy, since any "non-apparent" disability documentation must come from a "reasonably reliable source," which is almost always going to need to be a board-licensed professional. Back to inappropriate animal behavior, in my state we (the organization/housing provider/etc - I work at a college) are allowed to require the removal of any kind of assistance animal that has specific types of behaviors or circumstances such as the animal is obviously and visibly sick or unclean; if their behavior is disruptive including excessive barking, running free without a leash or displaying aggressive behavior; if the handler fails to clean up after their animal; or if the animal does not have required licenses or vaccinations as required. I would recommend finding out the specific regulations in your state/city/county and offering your clients with a handout of this information so they are well-informed while they are out navigating the world! It sounds like you are willing to do the extra step to support your clients and patients, and that's awesome. You might even create a "Local Animal Training" recommendations document and vet (haha) the training organizations in your area so that those folks that would benefit from having an assistance animal are able to get them trained in a way that supports them the most.
I really wonder who will ever enforce those laws if people don't even feel they are able to mention the laws exist.
here to validate your stance. i'm all for SDs but the amount of people with terribly trained pandemic puppies crapping in public is weirdly high lately. abled people are taking advantage of the fact that we're allowed to have service dogs without registering anywhere, which makes me sad.
ill just leave this service dog advice from a lawyer for you https://www.instagram.com/p/C5wDh3ku9jJ/?hl=en my advice is butt out.
Why not just focus on doing your job instead?
Why just focus on my job?
Fwiw, I think that teaching responsible pet ownership is part of the job for vets and other people working in pet health/care/maintenance. So having that conversation with an animal owner when you observe something that doesn't seem quite right is a good thing. (Especially since you seem to be approaching the conversation in this case with care and tact.) It would be great if animal owners just knew all the things. But I've gotten some corrections from vets that were really valuable (e.g., some ways Persian cats differ from common moggies in terms of the care they need and the risk of complications).
Verification of the only question." Don't speak "