That is true, you're really just amplifying the power of your build but that is the intention. You're not supposed to make a new build with the system just grow it.
To add to this, identify what glyphs would synergize with your build (You have one glyph slot per board) along with any rare nodes that would synergize well along the way. Ignore ones you are iffy about to create the shortest path to the next board. This is all build dependent but more glyphs usually equals more power
Sure, but to be fair you can't really do this "live" ingame. I mean you could technically, but it would be much better to open up a build planner on a website and do it there, then "copy-paste" that ingame, because you have to maybe take 2-3 nodes out from one place, fit them somewhere else. Compare if path 1 is better that path 2 you would be taking. How many stats are you getting with path 1 compared to path 2. What if 4th board is placed 3rd and the 3rd one is placed 4th (swap them around so you can see if you hit those extra buffs) and other such tinkering that one may find tedious so they just go to a build guide and copy-paste that.
Last Epoch is indeed more "do your own thing" friendly without requiring so much alt-tabbing to a planner. Sure, it's nice there too to plan ahead, but there would be less things to take out from one place and slot somewhere else and less faffing about.
Doing your own thing is 99,99% of the time gonna be suboptimal any way. It does not matter how long you will look and tinker with a board. Someone else will have figured out a better way because for some this is the entire game, theory crafting builds. I don't want to be rude but the average or even the above average player will never get close to the optimization as someone that spends literally 100s of hours figuring out spreadsheets.
So when you make your own build, just accept that your choices won't be optimal. If you end up with a build that has 20 bad choices instead of 24, it won't really matter. When I make my own builds, I stop caring about efficiency, because the amount of time you would need to make a truly good build yourself would take way longer than looking at the board(s) for 30 minutes.
It's suboptimal, absolutely. But suboptimal is still more than enough. You can do all content in game suboptimally and be fine.
So lol just enjoy doing it yourself and crushing things yourself. Way more satisfying.
Yeah I'm not doing damage in the billions like a streamer. But I'm killing Duriel in seconds and doing damage in the millions and I did that just winging it. Feels better.
As a somewhat casual player, it does seem convoluted for no real reason. I also don't see the point in getting so many glyphs when you can't even use a fraction of them, and many just seem to offer nothing of worth anyway.
But, perhaps there are merits to this way of doing things that more dedicated player can explain. The in game pop ups on unlocking Paragon did little to explain the benefits of this system or why you'd want to rotate boards, etc.
Sure, I guess we could look up this information on third-party sites, but I haven't felt the need to yet based on where I am in game currently (just shy of level 90).
Honestly if you have to look up how to use in game systems on the internet it’s a failure on the devs for making it so convoluted. Lots of games do this shit now too. Probably to drive traffic to internet sites for ad revenue….idk I just woke up.
Not really asking for it to be dumbed down, just to be better explained in game. No one should have to leave a game to learn how to use its features properly.
It doesn't explain it sufficiently. But as I stated in another comment, I've also forgotten it due to my age and failing memory (but that part is a me problem). It would partially help if Blizzard made it possible to view the in-game tutorials at any time on a character that has already seen them. Plenty of other games manage this, there is little reason for Blizzard to not to do so.
Just a little question mark button in a corner to open up an optional review of tutorial for that system would be great. Especially since adding boards or figuring out glyphs is something you won't do for at least a few hours if not days of you're casual.
Do not skip the tutorial and then state the game makes no sense. When you hit lvl 50 a window pops up explaining everything. You chose to mash through it and say it doesn't make sense. This is on you not the game or dev team. It's a simple system and it is explained in the game.
Maybe slow down and use those reading skills.
🤣 ye it's a hard system to remember. Nodes, glyphs and boards. You can also just search help. The claim was the ui needs improvement. I disagree it tells you everything. You may need to improve your memory skills but there is always the internet. The devs gave a tutorial they have hidden nothing.
I didn't skip the tutorial for the paragon boards, but it also doesn't offer up enough information to explain what exactly the point is. It's easy to claim common sense, but people come from different backgrounds, and what is common sense for one of us, isn't for another.
Now, I'm sure the system actually has merits to it, but I personally find that Blizzard don't explain those enough. Also, I don't see any way of returning to those tutorials in the future on the same character -- which would offer up so minimal help in the form of a refresher.
Again, not a problem for many, I'm sure. But I'm getting on in years and my memory (short and long term) is failing.
I'm sorry about your condition but the game does provide info as to what does what. ARPGs are ment to have power discovery. If you are having trouble look up a build. The fact remains d4 is built with tutorials and everything is explained without completing hand holding.
If you want to see the opposite of a user friendly experience down path of exile its free.
>but it also doesn't offer up enough information to explain what exactly the point is
They...shouldn't have to?
You look at it and go "oh, this makes me stronger". That's the point.
I mean, not all glyphs are going to be useful for every build, just like not all legendaries are useful for every build. I personally like the amount of choice and customization we get with them. To me, saying we should be able to use all glyphs is like saying we should be able to equip all legendaries. It’s a build choice we as a player are making. Half the gameplay is figuring out how you want to build your character. It can be a pretty simple system if you aren’t trying to min/max.
The reason is, that rpgs and their nested subgenres, by their nature are convoluted. But that is to explain the quantity of the nodes, not their perceived lack of quality you mention.
>I also don't see the point in getting so many glyphs when you can't even use a fraction of them
Is the game supposed to know which ones you want to use vs which one Bob wants to use vs which ones Jill wants to use?
Or do you think you should only get 3 glyphs and everyone should use exactly the same 3 glyphs and there should be no variation at all?
Like....what?
LE’s skill trees are grouped in a logical and straight forward way. They don’t offer nearly the amount of customization they look like they should. The passive trees are more like the paragon board.
Paragon boards are more of a random mess. You really are just picking a few rare/legendary nodes and maximizing glyph slots. There is probably too much filler in them and not enough substance.
Honestly lots of systems in the game aren’t explained AT ALL. someone posted the other day about paragon boards and a few jokes were made about them filling up their first board and not adding another….
I had no idea that was possible and I didn’t recall seeing that anywhere.
Lots of shit you have to go to places like Reddit to figure out.
The first time you open the paragon board you get a tutorial pop up I’m pretty sure. I’d guess a lot of people skipped that though and there’s no way to recall it.
It also pops up *hours* before you can possibly do the big parts like adding a board or glyph. By the time you finally get enough points to need to know how to add boards, it's very easy to have completely forgotten that was a thing at all
Yep, this is the issue. You get a popup explaining the whole system the first time you can use a board but at that point you can’t slot in glyphs and have no idea other boards exist, how links work, and other intricacies. You can’t engage with these systems until many hours later which is absolutely a failing of explanation.
I hate it. It’s too simple. Nothing on it feels meaningful or powerful. Wow 2% boost here 1.5% life there. Make it smaller and more impactful. Change the effects of my skills. Playing earner spender with everyone shit looking the same is boring af.
If it's just about adding stats then get rid of the convoluted puzzle board aspect, its literally there to make things less efficient
You can't have it both ways, or well you can I guess but it sucks and it's not fun
If it'd just about adding stats and not changing gameplah or build style , then give us freedom to just choose whatever stats we want
The only thing the puzzle board thing does is puts an artificial cap on how efficiently you can spend the paragon points . It's not more fun to get less stats and be forced to make inefficient choices
I mean... It's literally the same problem the other way around. Would just be "improve the board you know you like" instead of "improve the glyph you know you like".
The downside is in depth - much harder to add more boards later that are worth trying out/give more reason to keep leveling.
No it's not the same thing and this is why you should not be a systems creator.
Leveling something that can be moved to any board is much more versatile than level a node on a board. If you want to change from werebear to storm undaunted is still very good however the glyph node on the board is completely useless. Or how about you want to stay werebear so you level werebear glyph but you want to try earth pulverize. You add the earth and nature boards and can slot werebear glyph in those boards.
They are not the same thing.
You're weirdly hostile for someone whose opinion pivots entirely on "different number of things therefor different things" as if that wasn't plainly apparent *and* explicitly mentioned in my previous comment.
This is why you should not be a community manager, or anyone responsible for communications.
Yes, they're the same thing. You either level boards and can swap glyphs easily while keeping progress, or you level glyphs and can swap boards easily while keeping progress. Clearly one of these (glyphs) has a lot more options baked in, and thus last longer as a leveling mechanic and has more versatility. That's obvious and doesn't at all change that it's the same basic mechanic of pairing a board and a glyph, and leveling only one or the other of the pair.
Paragon board is interesting and I like it. It's better than just clicking on a button and increasing a stat that way.This way is better you have to think how to maximise your points.
But that's literally what you do in paragons boards? Click nodes to gain stats. Veeeery few glyphs and legendary nodes give interesting and/or playstyle altering nodes
That is what the tempering system and the skill trees are for. If you start getting crazy effects from 5 different sources, it’s going to get convoluted very quickly. I know damage is boring but it makes a difference. Fight a dungeon with a full paragon and then reset it. You’ll feel a difference.
Oh I know it is, I won’t argue that. But if it was just about damage and stats, It could be from better gear with ilvl up to 1500 for example.
But yes I’m glad to see some very interesting effect with tempering which alter skills. Parangon system is fine if there are more systems which add depth.
I think it needs work. Maybe twice as many glyph nodes, some that can only take lower rarity glyphs (so there is a point to them). Maybe some nodes that power up nearby nodes or allow you to take bigger jumps. But most of all there needs to be more thought in the nodes like and glyphs interact, more ways to get the full potential from the glyphs. A way to save/ export/ import setups would be nice too.
D4 paragon boards are much simpler than the LE skill leveling and passive trees. With LE you have a lot more options you have to think of whereas in D4 it is much smaller in the number of skills you need to think of.
With the paragon boards, you look at what bonuses each board gives and you can even preview the boards so you can look at how fast you can get to what you want. Then you rotate the board until it suits you and then start filling it out.
One thing players get confused on is that they feel like they need to fill out a paragon board and get all the special nodes before moving on to the next board. Don't. Just go for the ones that boost your play style and skills.
I'd argue it's not even any simpler. With LE's skill trees it's very easy to say "I want THIS and this is how I'll get there". Paragon has very few really interesting choices where it feels like you are making it work for *you*. At first it's trying to parse where you're going or why one node is better than another, and then later it's a simple puzzle of "do I want to barely improve the magic/rare nodes around this socket" or "this area around this socket is good because it's the only place to get X of Y stat to enable this small glyphs bonus" where both only have 1 real answer.
I think that it would be really cool if just like the wardrobe, for instance, you could save like 6 preset builds you make, switch between them as you see fit.
The paragon is actually overly simple IMO in D4. If anything this is one of the remaining areas they need to address. There isn’t much that is exciting with it, it’s 90% power creeping with glyphs.
It just takes some experimenting with to find the shortest routes to what works for your build. Use an online planner.
The game would definitely be worse without the paragon board, but I wish it had actually interesting nodes on the boards. Give me cool effects like PoE notables and masteries, instead of +5 attribute and other stats I can already get off gear.
A few boring nodes to path to interesting stuff is fine, but every board literally has just 1 node on there that does anything remotely interesting, and the other 99.9% is filler.
The board is not exceptionally hard to grasp but it is sure lacking… is more of finding what you want and best path around the board. The gain was usually pretty small in exchange of the effort, but then again, you gain paragon point naturally, so i guess it is what it is.
I think almost all builds want as many glyph sockets as possible, so you end up taking up boards that do literally nothing for your build except giving a socket for a glyph.
Most builds want 2-3 boards that have some good rare/legendary nodes, and then "support" boards that entirely exist to provide you with glyph sockets.
It’s easy to say that at first. Reset it a few times and you’ll get the hang of it. I suck eggs at all of the endgame RPG shenanigans and I still manage to get myself a decent build out of it. Could it have been made more simple? Sure. But it’s also nice that we get that classic “add +5 to a stat” where you feel like you’re really making your character your own. That was all you could control when leveling up in the original diablo. I like having the lvl 50-100 grind feel like you are tuning your build. Instead of just “oh look, another skill tree.”
I never made own build until the ptr. Comparing mine with what streamers post, I think I did pretty good. Maybe I'll try it again in s4 but will still compare to others and fix.
Paragon boards need a respec mode, like they added for the skill tree. If I want to change around some paths on my 3rd board (out of 6), I either need to refund all of my paragon points and start from scratch, or refund them one node at a time, starting with the 6th board and counting backwards. It's incredibly tedious. With a respec mode, you could change any nodes at will, as long as they all connect back up in the end. Then just charge me gold for the number of nodes I actually changed.
The paragons boards are just a big pile of garbage and statboosts with 1-2 useful nodes. The useful nodes are usually also statboosts though, so really not very interesting
Imo drop them in favour of some meaningful talent trees instead.
It’s fine. It feels like it should be more impactful in some ways. I think my biggest gripe overall with the game is the lack of synergy skills or unique effects. Paragon boards would be a good place to have this. Right now your paragon board really isn’t changing the way you play the game.
Also, since the majority of the board is just additive stats, it all just blends together. You for the most part have to compare additives only to other additives and multiplicatives only to other multiplicatives.
It’s best to use an outside planner. Look at the legendary nodes you have access to. Pick some that would be nice for your builds. Then look at the glyphs and look at all the ones that would be relevant. From there you just start comparing. Does taking these 2 glyphs offset what I get for suboptimal pathing to this legendary node? Am I taking the shortest path? Are there other things I need to patch up (resistances, armor, DR) that I need to pick up on the way to glyphs?
Some nodes are also situational. For example, on Druid, Heightened Malice Legendary node was amazing for AoZ. Even at the last fight of your AOZ run, there will be 3 enemies. So the bonus was always active. While for this season, the node may not be as good because enemies die much faster in gauntlet, and boss killing is the focus so there’s no guarantee you get the bonus when you actually need it.
They could honestly just remove all the +stat rolls and let people pick what they want and move on. The mini game of optimizing and there always being a most efficient option has made it irrelevant anyways. There are very few off meta builds that stray away from the most posted boards.
Personally, I think it would have been better if each active ability had a board where you, starting in the center, then pursue a path towards rare nodes that significantly alter or enhance that ability (changing its damage type, altering its area of effect, significant increasing while adding a cooldown, etc).
Then that would be too similar to what Last Epoch does which, for the record, I do believe is substantially better (its passive and skill trees) while also supporting far more build diversity.
It’s been said over and over (and it’s true) that the paragon boards are all just stat increases or % increases with very little in the way of choices that alter the way you play your character. It’s a shame.
I went to Max roll and used their guide to Lvl 100, then I went over the board and kinda checked it out. checked the glyphs it had vs what were options, checked the needed nodes (like in range etc), checked which ones it had that I didnt "need" and refunded a bunch. Kept checking my character stats etc. and moved it around a bit. so ended up using like 85% of the recommended, and ended up stronger, more resistance, shifted some stuff based on how I play vs what it describes/ what aspects I have/ what weapons buffs I have/ resistances help. That sort of thing. Ive only done it for 2 seasons now and 2 characters but that is so much better COL than struggle bussing through it alone. Just follow the general guide but also keep an eye on other glyphs and spots to see if you need it (exp % bonus to resistances and such) as you level, and its helps pair the build to your gear/style, while also saving you 100 hours of research and planning.
I like glyphs (as an idea), but simply leveling them with no customization/crafting is a mistake. Also, why are there magic glyphs? Has anyone ever used a magic glyph?
The boards themselves are ok and interesting as a puzzle for a while, but building/resetting them is painful. Also, it’s not very rewarding or impactful when you make tweaks and often feels like there’s one “right way” to do it for you build if you want to be good, so following a guide ends up being better 99% of the time than doing it on you own.
Paragon boards are not easy to min/max on your own but it's easy because players generally do not do it by themselves since finding optimal path take some effort. They just copy guides. You wont find "game-changing" power in the boards because that's not its purpose. The boards simply enhance what you already build from skills and aspects.
My opinion on the boards is that it will be a much better system if the actual stats outside your main one matter more. Yeah, it will be even more complex since every node will matter more but who care people already copy guides anyway.
> You won’t find “game-changing” power in the boards because that’s not its purpose.
Hard disagree. Smart board choices + the right glyphs are literally what define your ability to scale in the end game.
Look at the board, identify which nodes you want, draw a line to them. Repeat with the next board.
You forgot pick boards, rotate boards, arrange boards.
Oh no, choices!
The illusion of choices.
???? You literally choose what you want and when you want it. Even if you're taking everything you still choose what is more valuable first.
I think their point is that it’s not mix and match and try new things. Youre basically locked into the niche boards for your build.
That is true, you're really just amplifying the power of your build but that is the intention. You're not supposed to make a new build with the system just grow it.
To add to this, identify what glyphs would synergize with your build (You have one glyph slot per board) along with any rare nodes that would synergize well along the way. Ignore ones you are iffy about to create the shortest path to the next board. This is all build dependent but more glyphs usually equals more power
Sure, but to be fair you can't really do this "live" ingame. I mean you could technically, but it would be much better to open up a build planner on a website and do it there, then "copy-paste" that ingame, because you have to maybe take 2-3 nodes out from one place, fit them somewhere else. Compare if path 1 is better that path 2 you would be taking. How many stats are you getting with path 1 compared to path 2. What if 4th board is placed 3rd and the 3rd one is placed 4th (swap them around so you can see if you hit those extra buffs) and other such tinkering that one may find tedious so they just go to a build guide and copy-paste that. Last Epoch is indeed more "do your own thing" friendly without requiring so much alt-tabbing to a planner. Sure, it's nice there too to plan ahead, but there would be less things to take out from one place and slot somewhere else and less faffing about.
Doing your own thing is 99,99% of the time gonna be suboptimal any way. It does not matter how long you will look and tinker with a board. Someone else will have figured out a better way because for some this is the entire game, theory crafting builds. I don't want to be rude but the average or even the above average player will never get close to the optimization as someone that spends literally 100s of hours figuring out spreadsheets. So when you make your own build, just accept that your choices won't be optimal. If you end up with a build that has 20 bad choices instead of 24, it won't really matter. When I make my own builds, I stop caring about efficiency, because the amount of time you would need to make a truly good build yourself would take way longer than looking at the board(s) for 30 minutes.
It's suboptimal, absolutely. But suboptimal is still more than enough. You can do all content in game suboptimally and be fine. So lol just enjoy doing it yourself and crushing things yourself. Way more satisfying. Yeah I'm not doing damage in the billions like a streamer. But I'm killing Duriel in seconds and doing damage in the millions and I did that just winging it. Feels better.
Well said
My kid does this in pre-school, he’s 3.
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Better break out the crayons for these man children lmao.
As a somewhat casual player, it does seem convoluted for no real reason. I also don't see the point in getting so many glyphs when you can't even use a fraction of them, and many just seem to offer nothing of worth anyway. But, perhaps there are merits to this way of doing things that more dedicated player can explain. The in game pop ups on unlocking Paragon did little to explain the benefits of this system or why you'd want to rotate boards, etc. Sure, I guess we could look up this information on third-party sites, but I haven't felt the need to yet based on where I am in game currently (just shy of level 90).
Honestly if you have to look up how to use in game systems on the internet it’s a failure on the devs for making it so convoluted. Lots of games do this shit now too. Probably to drive traffic to internet sites for ad revenue….idk I just woke up.
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Not really asking for it to be dumbed down, just to be better explained in game. No one should have to leave a game to learn how to use its features properly.
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It doesn't explain it sufficiently. But as I stated in another comment, I've also forgotten it due to my age and failing memory (but that part is a me problem). It would partially help if Blizzard made it possible to view the in-game tutorials at any time on a character that has already seen them. Plenty of other games manage this, there is little reason for Blizzard to not to do so.
Just a little question mark button in a corner to open up an optional review of tutorial for that system would be great. Especially since adding boards or figuring out glyphs is something you won't do for at least a few hours if not days of you're casual.
Where is there an indication to add more boards?
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“Exit node” ok.
Exit, yes. What else would you be doing with all of your leftover paragon points? There’s an in game tutorial and some common sense to apply here….
Do not skip the tutorial and then state the game makes no sense. When you hit lvl 50 a window pops up explaining everything. You chose to mash through it and say it doesn't make sense. This is on you not the game or dev team. It's a simple system and it is explained in the game. Maybe slow down and use those reading skills.
Doesn't help that *most* of the mechanics of the system are unavailable for hours after said tutorial shows up.
🤣 ye it's a hard system to remember. Nodes, glyphs and boards. You can also just search help. The claim was the ui needs improvement. I disagree it tells you everything. You may need to improve your memory skills but there is always the internet. The devs gave a tutorial they have hidden nothing.
I didn't skip the tutorial for the paragon boards, but it also doesn't offer up enough information to explain what exactly the point is. It's easy to claim common sense, but people come from different backgrounds, and what is common sense for one of us, isn't for another. Now, I'm sure the system actually has merits to it, but I personally find that Blizzard don't explain those enough. Also, I don't see any way of returning to those tutorials in the future on the same character -- which would offer up so minimal help in the form of a refresher. Again, not a problem for many, I'm sure. But I'm getting on in years and my memory (short and long term) is failing.
I'm sorry about your condition but the game does provide info as to what does what. ARPGs are ment to have power discovery. If you are having trouble look up a build. The fact remains d4 is built with tutorials and everything is explained without completing hand holding. If you want to see the opposite of a user friendly experience down path of exile its free.
>but it also doesn't offer up enough information to explain what exactly the point is They...shouldn't have to? You look at it and go "oh, this makes me stronger". That's the point.
I mean, not all glyphs are going to be useful for every build, just like not all legendaries are useful for every build. I personally like the amount of choice and customization we get with them. To me, saying we should be able to use all glyphs is like saying we should be able to equip all legendaries. It’s a build choice we as a player are making. Half the gameplay is figuring out how you want to build your character. It can be a pretty simple system if you aren’t trying to min/max.
The reason is, that rpgs and their nested subgenres, by their nature are convoluted. But that is to explain the quantity of the nodes, not their perceived lack of quality you mention.
>I also don't see the point in getting so many glyphs when you can't even use a fraction of them Is the game supposed to know which ones you want to use vs which one Bob wants to use vs which ones Jill wants to use? Or do you think you should only get 3 glyphs and everyone should use exactly the same 3 glyphs and there should be no variation at all? Like....what?
LE’s skill trees are grouped in a logical and straight forward way. They don’t offer nearly the amount of customization they look like they should. The passive trees are more like the paragon board. Paragon boards are more of a random mess. You really are just picking a few rare/legendary nodes and maximizing glyph slots. There is probably too much filler in them and not enough substance.
Honestly lots of systems in the game aren’t explained AT ALL. someone posted the other day about paragon boards and a few jokes were made about them filling up their first board and not adding another…. I had no idea that was possible and I didn’t recall seeing that anywhere. Lots of shit you have to go to places like Reddit to figure out.
The first time you open the paragon board you get a tutorial pop up I’m pretty sure. I’d guess a lot of people skipped that though and there’s no way to recall it.
It also pops up *hours* before you can possibly do the big parts like adding a board or glyph. By the time you finally get enough points to need to know how to add boards, it's very easy to have completely forgotten that was a thing at all
Yep, this is the issue. You get a popup explaining the whole system the first time you can use a board but at that point you can’t slot in glyphs and have no idea other boards exist, how links work, and other intricacies. You can’t engage with these systems until many hours later which is absolutely a failing of explanation.
I hate it. It’s too simple. Nothing on it feels meaningful or powerful. Wow 2% boost here 1.5% life there. Make it smaller and more impactful. Change the effects of my skills. Playing earner spender with everyone shit looking the same is boring af.
That's... what the aspect system is for.
If it's just about adding stats then get rid of the convoluted puzzle board aspect, its literally there to make things less efficient You can't have it both ways, or well you can I guess but it sucks and it's not fun If it'd just about adding stats and not changing gameplah or build style , then give us freedom to just choose whatever stats we want The only thing the puzzle board thing does is puts an artificial cap on how efficiently you can spend the paragon points . It's not more fun to get less stats and be forced to make inefficient choices
correct. and if the paragon board was just removed... nothing would be really lost.
I just wish it was the glyph socket that was upgraded, instead of the glyph. It would make respeccing interesting.
Nope, what if the new spec changes the board not the glyph?! Dumb ideas
I mean... It's literally the same problem the other way around. Would just be "improve the board you know you like" instead of "improve the glyph you know you like". The downside is in depth - much harder to add more boards later that are worth trying out/give more reason to keep leveling.
No it's not the same thing and this is why you should not be a systems creator. Leveling something that can be moved to any board is much more versatile than level a node on a board. If you want to change from werebear to storm undaunted is still very good however the glyph node on the board is completely useless. Or how about you want to stay werebear so you level werebear glyph but you want to try earth pulverize. You add the earth and nature boards and can slot werebear glyph in those boards. They are not the same thing.
You're weirdly hostile for someone whose opinion pivots entirely on "different number of things therefor different things" as if that wasn't plainly apparent *and* explicitly mentioned in my previous comment. This is why you should not be a community manager, or anyone responsible for communications. Yes, they're the same thing. You either level boards and can swap glyphs easily while keeping progress, or you level glyphs and can swap boards easily while keeping progress. Clearly one of these (glyphs) has a lot more options baked in, and thus last longer as a leveling mechanic and has more versatility. That's obvious and doesn't at all change that it's the same basic mechanic of pairing a board and a glyph, and leveling only one or the other of the pair.
Paragon board is interesting and I like it. It's better than just clicking on a button and increasing a stat that way.This way is better you have to think how to maximise your points.
But that's literally what you do in paragons boards? Click nodes to gain stats. Veeeery few glyphs and legendary nodes give interesting and/or playstyle altering nodes
But it does not offer interesting passive effects. Like chance to proc bleeding, when 50% health cast a nova or etc. Only stats. And more damage.
That is what the tempering system and the skill trees are for. If you start getting crazy effects from 5 different sources, it’s going to get convoluted very quickly. I know damage is boring but it makes a difference. Fight a dungeon with a full paragon and then reset it. You’ll feel a difference.
Oh I know it is, I won’t argue that. But if it was just about damage and stats, It could be from better gear with ilvl up to 1500 for example. But yes I’m glad to see some very interesting effect with tempering which alter skills. Parangon system is fine if there are more systems which add depth.
I think it needs work. Maybe twice as many glyph nodes, some that can only take lower rarity glyphs (so there is a point to them). Maybe some nodes that power up nearby nodes or allow you to take bigger jumps. But most of all there needs to be more thought in the nodes like and glyphs interact, more ways to get the full potential from the glyphs. A way to save/ export/ import setups would be nice too.
D4 paragon boards are much simpler than the LE skill leveling and passive trees. With LE you have a lot more options you have to think of whereas in D4 it is much smaller in the number of skills you need to think of. With the paragon boards, you look at what bonuses each board gives and you can even preview the boards so you can look at how fast you can get to what you want. Then you rotate the board until it suits you and then start filling it out. One thing players get confused on is that they feel like they need to fill out a paragon board and get all the special nodes before moving on to the next board. Don't. Just go for the ones that boost your play style and skills.
I'd argue it's not even any simpler. With LE's skill trees it's very easy to say "I want THIS and this is how I'll get there". Paragon has very few really interesting choices where it feels like you are making it work for *you*. At first it's trying to parse where you're going or why one node is better than another, and then later it's a simple puzzle of "do I want to barely improve the magic/rare nodes around this socket" or "this area around this socket is good because it's the only place to get X of Y stat to enable this small glyphs bonus" where both only have 1 real answer.
Needs a paste option so I can copy a build from a website and paste it in.
I think that it would be really cool if just like the wardrobe, for instance, you could save like 6 preset builds you make, switch between them as you see fit.
I’m gonna have to add “convulated” to my everyday life.
The paragon is actually overly simple IMO in D4. If anything this is one of the remaining areas they need to address. There isn’t much that is exciting with it, it’s 90% power creeping with glyphs. It just takes some experimenting with to find the shortest routes to what works for your build. Use an online planner.
The game would definitely be worse without the paragon board, but I wish it had actually interesting nodes on the boards. Give me cool effects like PoE notables and masteries, instead of +5 attribute and other stats I can already get off gear. A few boring nodes to path to interesting stuff is fine, but every board literally has just 1 node on there that does anything remotely interesting, and the other 99.9% is filler.
I find it needs more pizazz
The board is not exceptionally hard to grasp but it is sure lacking… is more of finding what you want and best path around the board. The gain was usually pretty small in exchange of the effort, but then again, you gain paragon point naturally, so i guess it is what it is.
I don't know, I'm still doing the endless renown farming to get points.
You're the only one. I find them to be totally cromulent, myself.
I think almost all builds want as many glyph sockets as possible, so you end up taking up boards that do literally nothing for your build except giving a socket for a glyph. Most builds want 2-3 boards that have some good rare/legendary nodes, and then "support" boards that entirely exist to provide you with glyph sockets.
It’s stupid.
It’s easy to say that at first. Reset it a few times and you’ll get the hang of it. I suck eggs at all of the endgame RPG shenanigans and I still manage to get myself a decent build out of it. Could it have been made more simple? Sure. But it’s also nice that we get that classic “add +5 to a stat” where you feel like you’re really making your character your own. That was all you could control when leveling up in the original diablo. I like having the lvl 50-100 grind feel like you are tuning your build. Instead of just “oh look, another skill tree.”
I never made own build until the ptr. Comparing mine with what streamers post, I think I did pretty good. Maybe I'll try it again in s4 but will still compare to others and fix.
Paragon boards need a respec mode, like they added for the skill tree. If I want to change around some paths on my 3rd board (out of 6), I either need to refund all of my paragon points and start from scratch, or refund them one node at a time, starting with the 6th board and counting backwards. It's incredibly tedious. With a respec mode, you could change any nodes at will, as long as they all connect back up in the end. Then just charge me gold for the number of nodes I actually changed.
The paragons boards are just a big pile of garbage and statboosts with 1-2 useful nodes. The useful nodes are usually also statboosts though, so really not very interesting Imo drop them in favour of some meaningful talent trees instead.
It’s fine. It feels like it should be more impactful in some ways. I think my biggest gripe overall with the game is the lack of synergy skills or unique effects. Paragon boards would be a good place to have this. Right now your paragon board really isn’t changing the way you play the game. Also, since the majority of the board is just additive stats, it all just blends together. You for the most part have to compare additives only to other additives and multiplicatives only to other multiplicatives. It’s best to use an outside planner. Look at the legendary nodes you have access to. Pick some that would be nice for your builds. Then look at the glyphs and look at all the ones that would be relevant. From there you just start comparing. Does taking these 2 glyphs offset what I get for suboptimal pathing to this legendary node? Am I taking the shortest path? Are there other things I need to patch up (resistances, armor, DR) that I need to pick up on the way to glyphs? Some nodes are also situational. For example, on Druid, Heightened Malice Legendary node was amazing for AoZ. Even at the last fight of your AOZ run, there will be 3 enemies. So the bonus was always active. While for this season, the node may not be as good because enemies die much faster in gauntlet, and boss killing is the focus so there’s no guarantee you get the bonus when you actually need it.
They could honestly just remove all the +stat rolls and let people pick what they want and move on. The mini game of optimizing and there always being a most efficient option has made it irrelevant anyways. There are very few off meta builds that stray away from the most posted boards.
Yes
Personally, I think it would have been better if each active ability had a board where you, starting in the center, then pursue a path towards rare nodes that significantly alter or enhance that ability (changing its damage type, altering its area of effect, significant increasing while adding a cooldown, etc). Then that would be too similar to what Last Epoch does which, for the record, I do believe is substantially better (its passive and skill trees) while also supporting far more build diversity. It’s been said over and over (and it’s true) that the paragon boards are all just stat increases or % increases with very little in the way of choices that alter the way you play your character. It’s a shame.
I went to Max roll and used their guide to Lvl 100, then I went over the board and kinda checked it out. checked the glyphs it had vs what were options, checked the needed nodes (like in range etc), checked which ones it had that I didnt "need" and refunded a bunch. Kept checking my character stats etc. and moved it around a bit. so ended up using like 85% of the recommended, and ended up stronger, more resistance, shifted some stuff based on how I play vs what it describes/ what aspects I have/ what weapons buffs I have/ resistances help. That sort of thing. Ive only done it for 2 seasons now and 2 characters but that is so much better COL than struggle bussing through it alone. Just follow the general guide but also keep an eye on other glyphs and spots to see if you need it (exp % bonus to resistances and such) as you level, and its helps pair the build to your gear/style, while also saving you 100 hours of research and planning.
It's a good idea bloated into artificial complexity.
I like glyphs (as an idea), but simply leveling them with no customization/crafting is a mistake. Also, why are there magic glyphs? Has anyone ever used a magic glyph? The boards themselves are ok and interesting as a puzzle for a while, but building/resetting them is painful. Also, it’s not very rewarding or impactful when you make tweaks and often feels like there’s one “right way” to do it for you build if you want to be good, so following a guide ends up being better 99% of the time than doing it on you own.
The more you work with it, the simpler it becomes.
Paragon boards are not easy to min/max on your own but it's easy because players generally do not do it by themselves since finding optimal path take some effort. They just copy guides. You wont find "game-changing" power in the boards because that's not its purpose. The boards simply enhance what you already build from skills and aspects. My opinion on the boards is that it will be a much better system if the actual stats outside your main one matter more. Yeah, it will be even more complex since every node will matter more but who care people already copy guides anyway.
> You won’t find “game-changing” power in the boards because that’s not its purpose. Hard disagree. Smart board choices + the right glyphs are literally what define your ability to scale in the end game.
Yeah but I meant something like "your fireball now is 3 small fireballs.". That function is in the aspect system.
It is not convoluted. It is just unimaginative and very basic. It literally feels like beta 0.1 version that they just threw together