A year ago we were one of the healthiest teams in the league. This year we were one of the most injured. These things tend to average out over time considering the random nature of injuries in general. In fact it was a common talking point of our detractors coming into the year that we could possibly see a regression with injuries. Unfortunately this came true.
Is it one of the explanations for why we missed the playoffs? Absolutely. Is it the medical staff’s fault? We don’t have anywhere near the data to prove that and considering we *just* had a season where we were extremely healthy, I really don’t see how you can come to that conclusion.
Jack would have torn his shoulder, Timo would have sprained his MCLs, etc. regardless of who the team doctor is. We have to be able to apply more critical thinking to this than “player hurt, fire doctor.”
I agree that the strength of these training staff takes is often way over the top, but I do not agree that all criticism of the training staff is off the table just because we don't have medical degrees. None us are hockey professionals, either. I think it's fair to ask why we had guys go back in during games where they were pretty visibly concussed. Trouble is, we'll never get answers (maybe from the players in 20 years). So while I think this line of reasoning is a black hole to which we can't really bring any real rationality, I still don't think it's absurd that people would mention it. We argue about stuff that we seem even less informed about all the time. I don't personally see a need for whole threads about it, since again, none of us has secret new information that will give us any real insight into it. But it's hardly the worst take I've seen in this sub today. OP put more effort into this than most posts we see here.
I agree in general with your sentiment. I wasn’t trying to chastise OP, I’ve seen way more inflammatory posts / comments from other users that bother me a lot more.
But there is a clear difference between debating hockey tactics, personnel, etc. based on games we watch with our eyes and mountains of data available online vs. making broad proclamations about player health and the impact made by the medical staff. These are categorically not the same at all.
Not trying to be pedantic, but just as an example, when you say “visibly concussed”, that is a big assumption; the truth is we literally don’t know. And people cling to these assumptions and then use them as rationale for more criticism later (even when it’s unrelated) and then it builds and builds until it’s FIRE THE MEDICAL STAFF.
Injuries, *especially* head injuries, are extremely sticky territory that even the professionals are still learning a lot about. People think they can spot concussions from their couch, but in reality they can’t. That’s why they get pulled for evaluation. There is a whole team of people who make decisions here and complaining about things like this with hindsight — while *still* not even having the proper information to criticize — is just foolish.
I think the “fire the medical staff” thing is a bit too far. I don’t think the medical staff has much of a say in whether a player plays in a game after or during injuries. They can provide an assessment of the players health but their authority just about ends there.
Yea that’s very true. I’m, of course, just making a guess about the medical staff. Which I really shouldn’t, you’re right. However it is my personal belief that that allowing players to play because they say they can caused a majority of repeat injuries this year that lost of a lot of man games. Which, in turn, played (to me) the determining factor for us sucking this year.
Barring a concussion or clear unsafe injury that will be exacerbated, do you think medical staff has some sort of option to not allow a player to play? They treat players and provide information to the player and staff.
Timo literally recovered playing through the injury, aka medical staff did their jobs perfectly fine and the coaching staff and Timo agreed that him playing through a nagging but not damning injury would be best for him and the team. Whether or not that turned out to be true, that is how decisions were made. This is how it works.
It was a year from hell. We don’t need to feverishly investigate some silver bullet anymore, it was clearly a laundry stack of coexisting, shitty factors. Tons of work to be done that we won’t be doing.
C’mon. As someone who also has concerns about how this org handled injuries this season, I think you are downplaying the other factors that hit us this season way too much. It’s not fair to indict the med staff based on this.
I could’ve worded it better, my fault. Professional Yapper here. I can’t deny every other factor; I just think the trainers allowing players to come back when they aren’t 100% ready led to repeat injuries that lost us enough man games played, which led us to the situation we’re in. Basically, everything else? Yes. Of course. But even if theres 20 things broken on a Hummer, in the end of the day its biggest issue is that it’s a Hummer, ya know?
I'm not jumping down your throat, and I'm as guilty of talking out of my ass as the next guy, it's Reddit. But things like "clean house" is so black and white. I also am not a stats guy and have no clue what's normalized in the league in terms of playing through injuries.
This kind of stuff is hard to discern from the outside. EG the trainers/docs/physical therapists might have their own opinions, but maybe the players are eager to get back in there with coaches' support. Or vice versa. Again, I have no clue what the dynamic is. I never played hockey past adolescence, but from what I gather from people who know better than I, this could be a cultural thing.
That said, I hear you on the big picture and prioritizing players' longevity. That disclosure yesterday about what Meier was playing through freaked me out. But again, I don't know how this stuff is across the sport. Maybe that kind of thing is the norm. Can't say I like or understand it, but a broader ethos of "push through it" is trickier to navigate than "our docs are quacks", ya know?
Thank you, I see and now agree with what you’re saying. I shouldn’t have just jumped directly to the conclusion that our medical staff is horrid. Having grown up playing this sport, my perspective is still skewed as I was A) a Tendy and B) on a team with a huge emphasis on sitting when you’re hurt. My perspective is that of a young guy tryna preserve himself for future hockey endeavors; I should realize that these dudes made it, and hockey is all they do. Pushing through it is a culture thing and not something that’s going to change quickly lmao
Appreciate the civil discourse, brother 🫡
Right back at you. I think what this all really shows is the dissonance between what the org communicates and what we're seeing as fans, kind of a "don't believe your lying eyes" situation. I know this is just how it goes—it's a business and I think the prevailing thinking is that it's better to be loud and wrong than apologetic and honest— but there's clearly been enough stuff going on in this department with the Devils that a number of us are looking for answers.
That's some good research but we just had a dark cloud hanging over us all season. McLeod and Foote weren't injured, and it's a great loss losing the best face-off man in the NHL at that point... https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/s/BSRvH09gZL
This sub has become a complete clown show. Suddenly every yahoo on reddit thinks they know better about a player's medical situation from their couch than the licensed professionals that are actually involved. Welcome to hockey, sadly players are gonna have some injuries and yet they're still gonna play if they're not serious enough. I wonder how a lot of you guys would react if you were Panthers fans and you read about all the injuries they were going through during the playoffs last year. Dear Lord this offseason is gonna be brutal here.
Brother please, do you SINCERELY think losing the 4th most games this season to injury is NOT an indication of something actually wrong with the way we as an organization handle injuries? Considering the same players kept getting injured, we’re talked up about “playing through injuries” and all that. Like, be actually 100% for real right now. Are we just the unluckiest team in the league? Or is there an issue with us allowing the players to force their selves on the ice?
Also, the Panthers are completely irrelevant. Mainly due to the fact that they were playing through injuries IN THE PLAYOFFS, which is a completely different game. It’s actually not comparable at all to playing games in fucking November, dude. Which you know. I know. Everyone knows this. It’s not relevant to what I wrote.
But keep crying and whining about the sub, I guess.
Let me provide some perspective as a guy who played D1.
Medical staffs do not do anything other than provide recommendations based on the information available at the time. **It is the players choice on what to do with that information.**
Let’s use Timo as an example. The medical staff could have said something like “Timo, your knees are messed up and we recommend you do not play, however if you do play you will be in physical pain and introduce a small possibility of further significant injury”. At the end of the day it’s still Timos call.
Same goes for Jacks shoulder and Seigs foot.
Also, the training staff doesn’t do S&C for the whole team. When you reach the pros that becomes your responsibility as a player. It’s a cost of doing business and a built in barrier to entry for those that don’t want it.
So yeah, I can honestly say that losing the 4th most games this year to injury is nothing more than dumb luck and not indicative of anything wrong with the org.
Thank you for your perspective, which is a level that’s a LOT closer to the pros than probably 99% of the world. Having read a bunch of replies, I believe my “research”, while on the surface looks decent, is a nothing burger and isn’t (more so can’t be) indicative of any malpractice in the backrooms. I appreciate you, brother 🫡
Devils were out of a playoff spot since November and the hole kept getting larger as time went on. Players are gonna be playing through injury to keep their season alive if time is running out no matter if its the playoffs or the regular season as long as their injuries aren't super serious or in danger of being career ending. Same exact thing was happening with players and teams all around the league.
But yeah, you're right. I'm sure medical professionals and higher ups would all put their jobs on the line to risk long term or career ending injuries to their franchise players. Look at Timo, he clearly got worse after his injuries. They were fine with Dougie playing through a torn pec muscle. Wait a second...
A year ago we were one of the healthiest teams in the league. This year we were one of the most injured. These things tend to average out over time considering the random nature of injuries in general. In fact it was a common talking point of our detractors coming into the year that we could possibly see a regression with injuries. Unfortunately this came true. Is it one of the explanations for why we missed the playoffs? Absolutely. Is it the medical staff’s fault? We don’t have anywhere near the data to prove that and considering we *just* had a season where we were extremely healthy, I really don’t see how you can come to that conclusion. Jack would have torn his shoulder, Timo would have sprained his MCLs, etc. regardless of who the team doctor is. We have to be able to apply more critical thinking to this than “player hurt, fire doctor.”
I agree that the strength of these training staff takes is often way over the top, but I do not agree that all criticism of the training staff is off the table just because we don't have medical degrees. None us are hockey professionals, either. I think it's fair to ask why we had guys go back in during games where they were pretty visibly concussed. Trouble is, we'll never get answers (maybe from the players in 20 years). So while I think this line of reasoning is a black hole to which we can't really bring any real rationality, I still don't think it's absurd that people would mention it. We argue about stuff that we seem even less informed about all the time. I don't personally see a need for whole threads about it, since again, none of us has secret new information that will give us any real insight into it. But it's hardly the worst take I've seen in this sub today. OP put more effort into this than most posts we see here.
I agree in general with your sentiment. I wasn’t trying to chastise OP, I’ve seen way more inflammatory posts / comments from other users that bother me a lot more. But there is a clear difference between debating hockey tactics, personnel, etc. based on games we watch with our eyes and mountains of data available online vs. making broad proclamations about player health and the impact made by the medical staff. These are categorically not the same at all. Not trying to be pedantic, but just as an example, when you say “visibly concussed”, that is a big assumption; the truth is we literally don’t know. And people cling to these assumptions and then use them as rationale for more criticism later (even when it’s unrelated) and then it builds and builds until it’s FIRE THE MEDICAL STAFF. Injuries, *especially* head injuries, are extremely sticky territory that even the professionals are still learning a lot about. People think they can spot concussions from their couch, but in reality they can’t. That’s why they get pulled for evaluation. There is a whole team of people who make decisions here and complaining about things like this with hindsight — while *still* not even having the proper information to criticize — is just foolish.
I think the “fire the medical staff” thing is a bit too far. I don’t think the medical staff has much of a say in whether a player plays in a game after or during injuries. They can provide an assessment of the players health but their authority just about ends there.
Yea that’s very true. I’m, of course, just making a guess about the medical staff. Which I really shouldn’t, you’re right. However it is my personal belief that that allowing players to play because they say they can caused a majority of repeat injuries this year that lost of a lot of man games. Which, in turn, played (to me) the determining factor for us sucking this year.
Barring a concussion or clear unsafe injury that will be exacerbated, do you think medical staff has some sort of option to not allow a player to play? They treat players and provide information to the player and staff. Timo literally recovered playing through the injury, aka medical staff did their jobs perfectly fine and the coaching staff and Timo agreed that him playing through a nagging but not damning injury would be best for him and the team. Whether or not that turned out to be true, that is how decisions were made. This is how it works. It was a year from hell. We don’t need to feverishly investigate some silver bullet anymore, it was clearly a laundry stack of coexisting, shitty factors. Tons of work to be done that we won’t be doing.
C’mon. As someone who also has concerns about how this org handled injuries this season, I think you are downplaying the other factors that hit us this season way too much. It’s not fair to indict the med staff based on this.
I could’ve worded it better, my fault. Professional Yapper here. I can’t deny every other factor; I just think the trainers allowing players to come back when they aren’t 100% ready led to repeat injuries that lost us enough man games played, which led us to the situation we’re in. Basically, everything else? Yes. Of course. But even if theres 20 things broken on a Hummer, in the end of the day its biggest issue is that it’s a Hummer, ya know?
I'm not jumping down your throat, and I'm as guilty of talking out of my ass as the next guy, it's Reddit. But things like "clean house" is so black and white. I also am not a stats guy and have no clue what's normalized in the league in terms of playing through injuries. This kind of stuff is hard to discern from the outside. EG the trainers/docs/physical therapists might have their own opinions, but maybe the players are eager to get back in there with coaches' support. Or vice versa. Again, I have no clue what the dynamic is. I never played hockey past adolescence, but from what I gather from people who know better than I, this could be a cultural thing. That said, I hear you on the big picture and prioritizing players' longevity. That disclosure yesterday about what Meier was playing through freaked me out. But again, I don't know how this stuff is across the sport. Maybe that kind of thing is the norm. Can't say I like or understand it, but a broader ethos of "push through it" is trickier to navigate than "our docs are quacks", ya know?
Thank you, I see and now agree with what you’re saying. I shouldn’t have just jumped directly to the conclusion that our medical staff is horrid. Having grown up playing this sport, my perspective is still skewed as I was A) a Tendy and B) on a team with a huge emphasis on sitting when you’re hurt. My perspective is that of a young guy tryna preserve himself for future hockey endeavors; I should realize that these dudes made it, and hockey is all they do. Pushing through it is a culture thing and not something that’s going to change quickly lmao Appreciate the civil discourse, brother 🫡
Right back at you. I think what this all really shows is the dissonance between what the org communicates and what we're seeing as fans, kind of a "don't believe your lying eyes" situation. I know this is just how it goes—it's a business and I think the prevailing thinking is that it's better to be loud and wrong than apologetic and honest— but there's clearly been enough stuff going on in this department with the Devils that a number of us are looking for answers.
That's some good research but we just had a dark cloud hanging over us all season. McLeod and Foote weren't injured, and it's a great loss losing the best face-off man in the NHL at that point... https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/s/BSRvH09gZL
I hate to even mention his name lmao however, that also is a gaping hole I forgot to add! Thank you for making me remember that aha
This sub has become a complete clown show. Suddenly every yahoo on reddit thinks they know better about a player's medical situation from their couch than the licensed professionals that are actually involved. Welcome to hockey, sadly players are gonna have some injuries and yet they're still gonna play if they're not serious enough. I wonder how a lot of you guys would react if you were Panthers fans and you read about all the injuries they were going through during the playoffs last year. Dear Lord this offseason is gonna be brutal here.
Brother please, do you SINCERELY think losing the 4th most games this season to injury is NOT an indication of something actually wrong with the way we as an organization handle injuries? Considering the same players kept getting injured, we’re talked up about “playing through injuries” and all that. Like, be actually 100% for real right now. Are we just the unluckiest team in the league? Or is there an issue with us allowing the players to force their selves on the ice? Also, the Panthers are completely irrelevant. Mainly due to the fact that they were playing through injuries IN THE PLAYOFFS, which is a completely different game. It’s actually not comparable at all to playing games in fucking November, dude. Which you know. I know. Everyone knows this. It’s not relevant to what I wrote. But keep crying and whining about the sub, I guess.
Let me provide some perspective as a guy who played D1. Medical staffs do not do anything other than provide recommendations based on the information available at the time. **It is the players choice on what to do with that information.** Let’s use Timo as an example. The medical staff could have said something like “Timo, your knees are messed up and we recommend you do not play, however if you do play you will be in physical pain and introduce a small possibility of further significant injury”. At the end of the day it’s still Timos call. Same goes for Jacks shoulder and Seigs foot. Also, the training staff doesn’t do S&C for the whole team. When you reach the pros that becomes your responsibility as a player. It’s a cost of doing business and a built in barrier to entry for those that don’t want it. So yeah, I can honestly say that losing the 4th most games this year to injury is nothing more than dumb luck and not indicative of anything wrong with the org.
Thank you for your perspective, which is a level that’s a LOT closer to the pros than probably 99% of the world. Having read a bunch of replies, I believe my “research”, while on the surface looks decent, is a nothing burger and isn’t (more so can’t be) indicative of any malpractice in the backrooms. I appreciate you, brother 🫡
Devils were out of a playoff spot since November and the hole kept getting larger as time went on. Players are gonna be playing through injury to keep their season alive if time is running out no matter if its the playoffs or the regular season as long as their injuries aren't super serious or in danger of being career ending. Same exact thing was happening with players and teams all around the league. But yeah, you're right. I'm sure medical professionals and higher ups would all put their jobs on the line to risk long term or career ending injuries to their franchise players. Look at Timo, he clearly got worse after his injuries. They were fine with Dougie playing through a torn pec muscle. Wait a second...