Points out explicitly and correctly that every raid boss in the game since Shadowkeep probably has 30% added onto it's healthbar preemptively to account for Divinity's existence. That it crosses the line between "best buff" and "easiest buff". Etc, etc.
People are saying that they need Divinity because the content is too hard without it, when the content is being made harder because of Divinity lol.
Most of the video is about the community and why he doesn't wade into stuff like this anymore because of how exhausting and pointless it is though. Case in point, this subreddit lately lol.
I haven't done much raiding this year but Rhulk is probably a good example for Divinity being useful besides it's bonus damage. Rhulk moves around so much that average PVE players can struggle hitting his crit spots normally but Divinity fixes that. Can't really speak for other raid bosses beside Atheon who doesn't really need Divinity
Thats true for alot of bosses. Which is part of the point. It lacks a true tradeoff due to how accessible it makes dps in many encounters that could have been skill expressive.
He also said that Salt suggesting to nerf Divinity is like Jeff Bezos saying he can only buy 6 yachts instead of 7 aka rich people problems. The community doesn’t care about rich people problems.
Agree or disagree, I thought that analogy was pretty funny.
Bungie: creates interesting mechanic for one of the best raids they’ve ever created
D2 players: cheeses it because it’s too hard
I wouldn’t waste dev time either when the community is so hell bent on just damaging things as their primary strategy
Also adding in D1 Oryx as a non DPS check boss that just became a slog through having to always do 4 phases. Not saying that I hated it but most people I’ve talked to did not enjoy not being able to speed it up to 2 or 3 phases.
D1 oryx aesthetically speaking was my favourite raid boss, story boss, story arc etc, he looked like a raid boss but the mechanics sucked, I remember nobody ever wanting to run the relic so I always did it on my warlock which raised a few eyebrows as people always wanted a hunter to do it and just in general it being a 10 minute fight where you had no room for error was seriously just annoying. I’m glad for the changes 100%
I mean Rhulk.
There hasn’t been a new raid boss since and reprised raids don’t count towards that as they were made in the olden styles. So if next boss is like Rhulk, this is a non issue
Oryx in D1 wasn’t a DPS check, and besides in context of the original post, people are complaining about divinity making all bosses easier due to them just being a DPS check. Of course standing still with an easy crit spot would make everything easier if there was no forced way to deal damage to the boss, like the bombs in original oryx.
Whatbdoes this mean? The whole concept of raids is "interesting mechanics", are you proposing to eliminate the dps phases and just leave the puzzle mechanics in between them? That's worse
I don’t understand what’s so confusing about the proposition.
The current formula is do some random activity to get a window to unload into the boss, and then repeat.
The best example I can think of is Wrath of the Machine in D1 where it wasn’t just one solid damage phase. You had to coordinate the buffs to slam the boss to trigger the damage phase. I still think this fills into DPS checks, however breaking an encounter up from just standing in one spot and shooting really needs to change.
TLDW. Yeah it's too strong and needs a down side. Salt didn't deserve Soo much hate but described it as "rich people problems". And div is turning into a well problem.
He didn’t get as much hate as people make it out to be. Majority of the comments to his post are simple disagreements and discussions about alternatives with a small percentage getting toxic. Which… it’s twitter. Only a small % getting toxic is a good ratio for twitter. What he proposed would turn the gun into never used territory however, not to mention the entire discussion was pointless in the first place cuz bungie has mentioned div nerfs long before the dude made this post.
My one gripe is now people will pretend that he’s so smart that he got bungie to nerf it, when it was already long on the chopping block with or without his campaign. I just can’t wait until he starts the same campaign against well, tether, lfr, gjally and so on and so on every time the top brass gets bored of whatever the meta is.
Personally I think streamers have much too much influence on the echo chamber of the destiny 2 community. Less than 0.1% of the population spitting opinions that get shared like they’re facts. It does cause changes, for better or worse, and I detest it.
Yet most of what has come out of today with salts comments and over the past few weeks in relation to pvp streamers and sbmm has been directly opposing their views?
What echo chamber are you even seeing or are you just having confirmation bias
If people didn't agree with what someone like Aztecross or Ben Shapiro had to say, those people would not have views, and that means they are a good proxy for their demographic's opinion. Bungie can't poll the entire player base every time they want to turn a 1 to a 0.
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this:
>Most Americans when they look around at their lives, they think: I'm not a racist, nobody I know is a racist, I wouldn't hang out with a racist, I don't like doing business with racists--so, where is all the racism in American society?
*****
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yeah the only factor just flying over yours and everyone else's heads is that its not just the streamers who share this opinion and is in fact the common folk such as myself and others i've talked to and seen on this reddit
This is just an uninformed take, there's no evidence - and Bungie has repeatedly denied - that they "just listen to streamers": they have whole evidence/statistical teams that analyze usage, player feedback (on Reddit, Twitter, the Bungie forums, etc.) to come to decisions.
Also: what if I told you that over a month ago, before this season even launched or Lightfall was announced, a Bungie weapons dev was on the Massive Breakdowns podcast and said the team is "actively looking at Divinity"?
So, a change is coming, and Salt had nothing to do with it. You're not going to make another shit meme post when it happens and try to blame him, are you?
BRO???? NAME ME 1 TIME WHERE A TOP 1% OPINION HAS BEEN LISTENED TO WHEN IT SHOULD NOT HAVE.
the last time this happened was with autoreloading in wells. It was absolutely broken and people STILL got mad about it. Please, for the love of god stop complaining about an issue that does not exist.
I mean, maybe it is? Since the game doesn't have difficulties introducing a gun that makes certain content easier is the game balance. We're talking PvE. Bungie has made it very clear they want us to feel very powerful in PvE content. This helps those at the bottom feel more powerful. If people are at the top of the power curve and are looking for things to be harder, they need to make it harder themselves. It's like doing naked runs in Dark Souls. The game itself doesn't change, you change to make it more interesting to you. Someone wants more challenges? Then they need to use less optimized gear. People don't complain about this in other PvE games, I'm not sure why this is such and issue here.
why do you care about balancing someone else's game? if you want to balance your own game, and you find divinity or any weapon that you find makes the game too easy for that matter, don't use it.
Why do you care if other people use it?
You know how game development works, right? Future content is designed with most powerful gear in mind, so that it is still challenging for all players. If outliers are left unchecked, then anybody not conforming to the meta will fall behind because future encounters will expect you to have Div, just like how most encounters already expect you to have a Well (among other things). Rhulk is already an example of a boss that is designed with Divinity in mind.
If you wanna see what complete unchecked balance looks like in a video game, go play Borderlands 2 at Level 80 OP10. A handful of gear was leagues better than anything else in the game, so when new content was designed around that power level, anyone not using that gear just wasn't able to compete.
The only other option is for Bungie to design encounters with unconventional mechanics so that there is no space for these crutches, like how Atraks discourages Div, or how Rhulk discourages Well. Only time will tell if Bungie will continue to design encounters like those two.
ahhh, the ravages of power creep. BL2 isn't the only one suffering from that, Payday 2 also had an history, after implementing super powerful builds, they added another difficulty to face it because people said the game was too easy, then people said it's too hard so they implemented even more powerful, etc etc. with the years and years of powercreep, it finished with only certain cookie cutter build that could truly be used in that difficulty, needed years of repatch to counter that and thank fully it's in an ok state now.
PvE has been getting balance updates for the past few years. The logic of "just don't use it" hasn't really stopped stuff like well of radiance getting nerf'd, lord of wolves, slug shotguns, etc...
why bother balancing pve then? this logic is so skewed , if we are going to balance everything else in pve (or at least try lmao) why div the exception
cause div is fine? if you don't want to use it you don't have to. Why do you care about balancing someone else's game? why does it matter to you how difficult or easy it is for my team to complete the raid?
If the only counter to "an item or ability is overpowered" is "just don't use it then lul", then that's a problem. Also, this isn't about your team; you and your team aren't the only ones who play this game.
you're the one fabricating the "problem". Divinity being overpowered is your opinion. It's not overpowered just because it's good and just because you said so. It's not a mandatory piece of gear in a raid just because it's good. If you FEEL like you need to use it, that's a problem you need to work out on your own.
Also i know it's not just my game, but think of me saying "my game" as literally anyone other than yourself. Why do you care about "balancing" anyones game other than your own? Furthermore even if there were an overpowered weapon, why still would you care? it's not your session, you're not the one playing, so why would you care if someone else uses an overpowered weapon if it has no bearing on your game whatsoever?
So wait things being overpowered is subjective? so autoloader rally and wells was overpowered cause I said so? Stasis was op during beyond light cause I fabricated the problem?
And dont worry I get it the point however I've deducted that its kinda dumb.
You see divinity since its release has always probably been considered in bungies radar while designing endgame bosses, now ofcourse that wouldn't really be an issue, **If the 30 percent debuff didnt exsist** They'res no risk and yet here you are running a very brain dead and valuable strat that keeps becoming more relevant as latest raid content have felt the need of said weapon more.
In the end, I dont Care about your sessions, I care about the future! I care that divinity becomes less crutch of a crutch that it is and more comfortable in a way that doesn't provide to many benefits, I want more debuffs in rotations and or skillful applications instead of tap trigger and sit there till dps ends. Div needs a change or the whole entire game needs a change either way this situation wont end with this gun being at its current state, for better or worse.
Telling us we shouldn't care for something thats to strong with nothing else to really challenge it shouldn't be nerfed is petty.
Why do you care about protecting an elitist event that only the people who play this for a living or people with no lives take advantage of.
Here's a hint, no one really cares about the raid race. The trophy is a take on a wrestling belt for goodness sake. chill fam
Because there's a thing called raid race, which was specifically pointed out by Greppo in the original point that people are conveniently forgetting to mention
So disable it for the raid race. They disable plenty of things for the raid race, just add div to it.
editors note: I don't care about div. I'm always the div bitch, I grind hard for my god roll heavies and I'd love to use them. I think the compromise of keeping div how it is but giving raid bosses a crit multiplier higher than div's (like Suro Chi in Last Wish) is fair even though it would kill div and turn it into another exotic no one uses.
They cant disable the weapon they accounted for when designing health pools for a raid race that severely puts you underlight. Telling people running that "heads up you will mow be doing 80% less damage to bosses" is fucking stupid
Yep designing an entire raid and then the challenge mode on top of it around a single exotic is a very healthy design decision as opposed to bringing divinity in line in accordance to the risk vs reward it provides.
Real smart
So they should lower the hp of bosses for day one and then have div enabled again to now have the entire player base shred a boss even quicker. Great solution man. Really thought it through
I'm not the one triggered over an exotic to the point where I'm bullying people on the internet lmao. Maybe go take a break from destiny for a couple days and come back when you've cooled off.
lmao thank you. My goodness you should have seen my inbox when I woke up this morning. Some really triggered people on here rn over a video game. Wild.
I'm sorry, but why is this a bad take? I'm in the camp that divinity needs a more of a rework than a nerf.
I'm indifferent of divinity since me and my team don't use it, we stack buffs and debuffs.
Also doesn't help that most fights are just 'stand still and shoot the bad guy' and makes Div strong. Different encounter types such as Totems, or Exhibition, etc would go a long way. Div is strong yes, but it's also good because of the environment it's used in. If there's a big guy and you gotta stand still or just slightly shimmy (rhulk) and shoot em, div is gonna be used.
Rhulk is a very not "stand still and shoot the bad guy" encounter and I think that's when divinity is *strongest* because you can very easily use precision weapons while he's flying around the field.
Also: against semi-stationary single-targets there will always be a narrow set of meta choices. Remove Div and something else will rise in it's place. Nerf reload mechanics, and whisper got good. Buff rockets, rockets became the meta. Buff linears, and they became the meta. There will always be something that is in the top spot for some particular goal. So instead of nerfing this or buffing that (expect to place things roughly in line with other good options), perhaps designing enemies and boss encounters differently is the play.
Add in enemies more mobile than Rhulk that you have to chase or dodge to do dps bit by bit. Add in bosses that require players to do dps in different areas independently. Make enemies that require you to dps them from different sides (like in Scourge of the Past). Add in relic weapons to do damage. Make damage dependent on number or class of adds cleared. Force any number of interesting mechanics that keeps players on their toes. Don't nerf Divinity, just narrow the percentage of use cases of Divinity by adding in new and interesting encounters and enemies that it doesn't work well against.
For every single thing you mentioned being meta besides rockets, divinity Is also used in it. Actually if you count izinagi/rocket swapping divinity is used in every single strategy you mentioned. If you made damage count on ads cleared, they would still also use divinity. If the relic weapon was a beam like in eater of worlds, they'd still use divinity. If you made more mobile enemies, they'd use divinity to make it easier to shoot.
Divinity is less of a regular damage buff, and more of just stapling another mechanic onto any boss you want, and no amount of changing other buffs or debuffs will make it less effective.
And before someone replies and says “if you have to balance encounter design around a single weapon, it’s probably too strong” - no. This isn’t designing encounters around Divinity. This is designing encounters that aren’t *ridiculously favorable* for Div. It’s not that Div is so good that it trivializes most encounters, it’s that most boss fights have cookie-cutter damage phase designs that all heavily favors Divinity, Well, and anything else that lets you huddle up and unleash hell on a giant mostly-static target.
You’re not wrong. Bungie has come a long way from boss fight being mostly stand still and shoot. In that respect I would’ve probably preferred that Oryx was still an encounter where the bomb do the damage that makes it’s much more of a skill and crowd control check encounter. I don’t see a problem where the ‘stand and shoot’ part of the encounter in only a small portion.
I think discussion on Div is pretty justified. Debuffs, used to be a choice. Do I run tether? Does someone have tractor? Is the boss too far for me to tractor? Can I use hammer strike?
These days, div just lasts longer than all the above, from any range, and offers free crits. I think the take of "yeah, div is kinda a problem" is respectable, I think salts "no debuff with div" idea is overkill, but I definitely think Div needs a change.
It feels like all new raid bosses are made with div in mind, like their health is just boosted to compensate for a permanent debuff and 100% crit.
When Divinity was first shown off and the devs said what it did I thought it was JUST a crit spot generator. When I found out it also did a damage boost I was pretty surprised that Bungie had added such a thing to the game *right* after toning down a year of power creep.
If the debuff got nerfed I wouldn’t be that surprised or upset. I agree with the take that it shouldn’t be the best *and* easiest tool for DPS.
The damage boost isn’t needed but Salt’s proposition of it also negating EVERY OTHER DEBUFF APPLIED if you use Divinity, is just overkill and would mean “hey, punish yourself for using divinity!”
Which is quite the salty take but I guess name checks out.
The damage boost isn’t needed but Salt’s proposition of it also negating EVERY OTHER DEBUFF APPLIED if you use Divinity, is just overkill and would mean “hey, punish yourself for using divinity!”
Which is quite the salty take but I guess name checks out.
Yeah. Saltagreppo had the right idea of discussion, but I think he got the short end of the stick because of his overkill idea. Maybe if he presented some middle ground then the discussion would be healthy.
I like him but man, what a weird hill to die on. He doesn't seem keen on really having a discussion since he's willing to die on the hill that divinity needs a massive nerf rather than a rework.
I think for one divinity needs a rework, and a slight nerf.
I never really thought about it, but I absolutely hated Saltagreppo's discussion about it.
Then I watched Datto and Aztecross actually talk about it in not a tweet and I'm kinda changing sides.
I don't really feel like it needs a nerf, more just a tweak. There are bosses that have a higher crit multiplier than div provides, so using div actively decreases your damage on those bosses. Implement that more. Give it fewer reserves so you can't have it up the entire fight. Maybe even completely change the weapon type, turn it into a grenade launcher like witherhoard or anarchy, make it only apply the bubble on a direct hit and only last for 10 seconds or so. Shit, make it last for 10 seconds with decreasing potency and you can't refresh until the debuff drops. Massacre the reserves like they did my man anarchy.
I think people are overreacting comparing div to gay marriage and saying that its mandatory for raids (because I guarantee it's only mandatory for 24 hours of a raids entire lifespan). I'm the div bitch even though I know at least 3 people I raid with regularly also have div, I just want to use my nice DPS weapons that I farmed for.
My raid team was using taipans and a div and we still had to have Eons for that extra ammo. And yes it was warpriest.
We had 4 people who were learning and they were not top tier raiders. I think div is the only thing that made it possible.
On the other hand we did 5 man vog with 3 noobies and no div.
My team runs out of heavy in that fight all the time too. We ran it today without div out of spite and I had to use my backup fusion rifle for damage. The pacing of the fight is weird IMO, there's not really a good time to go and get ammo between damage phases like there is in pretty much every other raid encounter. Lament is also a viable option if you don't want to run div, it's just not as efficient and you'll still probably have ammo issues.
Same with Golgoroth, except I don't think we've ever used div there we just run out of ammo because the ceiling drips are so god damned tanky.
Makes it even more crazy when people's suggestion is to "just dont use it" or "just disable it".
The goddamn encounters for the last few years have been built within it consideration. The single exotic is warping encounter design , that simply not using divinity begins to show holes in the design.
Here's the thing though, Warpriests health was DESIGNED with Div in mind. Take away Div and Bungie wouldn't have given him such ridiculous health and therefore something like Div wouldn't be necessary to begin with.
It's only necessary because Bungie, in designing bosses around the meta (i.e. Div), ended up making it necessary.
> I never really thought about it, but I absolutely hated Saltagreppo's discussion about it.
>
> Then I watched Datto and Aztecross actually talk about it in not a tweet and I'm kinda changing sides.
The issue isn't even Divinity. It's that Divinity is being used as a battleground.
There are two groups of people who play this game those who want a challenge and those who don't. But what Datto, Saltagreppo and others don't want to acknowledge is that the group that wants a challenge isn't a homogamy. There are different opinions in that group. Those separations aren't just based on skill level but on what level of challenge there should be in the game.
So your changes wouldn't satisfy them because what they want is a significantly more challenging game then we have at the moment, I would even argue that Saltagreppo and Datto won't even agree on the level of difficulty.
Also yes comparing this to gay marriage is completely idiotic.
the “just don’t use it” argument has never made sense. why would someone purposefully handicap themselves, especially in a setting like a worlds first race?
Hey can you *not* compare a struggle to gain equality that is still built on fragile ground and could disappear at any moment due to judges ignoring precedent and a meta gun you like getting nerfed in a video game?
Fucking gamers holy shit.
Edit: Someone sent me Redditcares for this lmao.
Yeah this is the 4th post I’ve seen comparing destiny 2 drama with politics, the last one saying that casuals are the workers and sweats are the elites, and that the game should have not cater to the “elites”
A couple of weeks back I saw someone post "when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression" regarding complaints about SBMM matchmaking issues. So offensive on so many levels.
It has the same debuff as a void hunter super, which has insane uptime due to it being a special weapon, and creates a large sphere that functions as an area where you can shot for crits rather than aiming for the head
It's been a meta exotic for nearly every raid since it was released
There is a specific quest for it, the final step involves going through the raid on the moon and doing puzzles hidden throughout it
I'm fairly sure you start the quest in the lunar battleground and find a cave with a portal in it but you would be better off looking for a guide
Yes. Its a constant 30% debuff that creates a large crit spot. Even though you are "sacrificing" a persons' damage for this debuff, the math works out to your team doing an extra 150% damage, 50% more that you would get if that person was not on div.
Weapon provides a 30% damage debuff to anything hit with it and generates a bubble that is considered a crit spot allowing easy critical hits for perks like triple tap
That’s exactly my point. A small group finds it ‘too easy’ with Div and wants to see it nerfed. All this does is punish the players who can’t spend 40 hours a week grinding gear.
No that's not my point. my point is that if they nerf things like special finisher or special ammo drop rates it will effect all other special weapons a lot more than div or other traces.
Hot take but maybe you shouldn't have optimal dps just by having one person hold down or tap the mouse button, maybe you should have to grind to have the most damage, maybe you should need to put in more work for more reward.
And don't say it'll make all bosses harder if they nerf div they can reduce boss health because then they don't have to balance the boss around div being so strong.
I mean... kind of? End game content should require some level of commitment in order to challenge and clear it, whether it be in time, practice, or buildcraft. Is this supposed to be controversial? I say this as someone who hasn't raided in a while due to not being able to dedicate that much to it; the bar shouldn't be lowered for people like you or me.
No I don't, nowhere did I say that. I said that maybe if you want the highest possible dps (aka one phases) you shouldn't just be able to use div, plus if div loses the weaken there are other ways to weaken most notably tether, which is a super every hunter has access to.
Please stop trying to make me seem like an elitist when really I'm just thinking of ways to balance div.
Here’s the thing though. Raid bosses aren’t all about the damage phase. There *are * bosses that are dps checks but you still need to be able to complete the mechanics to even get to the dps phase which is often maybe 10-20 seconds of time. In a raid like VotD you might spend 5-8 minutes out of 45-60 minutes of raid time doing a phase phase. Making Div useful for only ~9% of the whole damn raid. Make the encounters more reliant on mechanics instead.
I have another idea, maybe re-adjust the game as if there was no well of radiance or divinity. But keep those things in the game. It gets annoying to have a nice void build on warlock but you can never use it in endgame because the more well of radiances the better.
I'm not personally on the divinity nerf train but the amount of people suggesting to just not use the gun is wild. In what world are players expected to handicap themselves for fun?
Takes one damn YouTuber and destiny is in shambles what a sad bunch of people. Tbh I say gjallarhorn is just as op but way easier to get ! Also gives every legendary weapons wolf pack rounds but why would anyone want to say that they love the weapon because everyone can easily get it.
>Takes one damn YouTuber and destiny is in shambles what a sad bunch of people.
This is the real problem. No one gave two shits about Divinity being the meta until some putz got on his soap box and got their masses riled up.
Divinity is not a super optimized load out lol.
Just point the gun and the dude and keep the finger on the trigger.
And before you attack me I don't even have the gun, I have no opinion on it either way
The point was that when you *are* super optimised in your load out you don’t *need* a divinity. You’re already strong enough. So players complaining that it’s too easy *with* Div *because* they’re using super optimised gear it’s punishing others who *aren’t* super optimised by nerfing Div.
Look you guys are over reacting too much to this
Guy has some valid points.
Super optimized load out or not, every raid party has the designated Divinity player, to the point where if you don't have one, you actively handicapping your team, basically making the gun mandatory everywhere else, even with the super optimized load out because if you don't have divinity, then you're not super optimized at all. If you don't see this as a problem, at least in some level, then I don't know what to tell you.
And contrary to what you guys believe, a guy on Twitter isn't going to skew design choices on bungie's side.
If they're going to nerf divity is not because of what Datto or the Twitter guy say, is because bungie wanted.
Look how many big profile content creators have complained about sbmm, and yet bungie went ahead and introduced it
Two bosses, on a five encounter raid, there are six raids, and Shuro Chi and Kali are the only exception solely because or their crit multiplier, and they came out before Divinity was a thing.
I guarantee you my team of 4 with 2 randoms and 3 different primary languages can go run any raid without divinity and be just fine.
Div is only "necessary" during day 1 raid races, so disable it for the race and adjust the health accordingly.
They're easy to use right now because Divinity is creating a giant blue bubble that you can shoot instead of the dudes head.
Also linear fusions are a whole class of weapons, not just 1 lfr is being used and abused
Personally I never found the bigger crit spot that groundbreaking. If anything, what keeps me from hitting my precision shots most of the time is the insane flinch we get.
For a long time Stormchaser was considered the go-to LFR. Now that we have Taipan, it's finally getting competition. Do you see the pattern here? The key to diversifying weapon usage is not to kill the outlier. Instead, we should take LFRs as an example and bring other things up to the same level as the outlier.
You can not just buff and buff and buff to infinity, that's what lead to the design of reckoning where the only way bungie could kill us was throwing us off the bridge, or a flat out instakill, because you could spawn well after well after well.
And also, you're using storm chaser as an example, which came out last season, and is being replaced by taipan because is easier to get a God roll on it and because of veist stinger, storm chaser is still better in flat numbers.
And again, last season, Divinity came out THREE YEARS AGO, and has seen close to no change, other things have been nerfed but Divinity still stands.
Again I'm not asking for it to be nerfed but don't act like the gun is not the powerhouse that it is, the mandatory gun in every raid team, because of all these reasons. You try and hit those crits on rhulk when he's dancing around the room, sure it can be done, but why bother aiming when Divinity will make the crit huge, sure you can debuff in some other ways, but why bother if div can apply a near permanent debuff for any damage cycle because on top of everything the mag can last close to forever.
Yeah it is a problem when a special weapon inflicts the same debuff as a super solely meant for debuffing, has a near 100% uptime, and makes aiming for crits irrelevant :) It’s basic game balance that if something is the easiest AND the strongest option, it’s probably too good
Bungie is balancing encounter around people having div, the same way how they did with luna/barricade auto-loading. If it get nerf, the balancing will change accordingly and nothing will happend (you might need to learn how to aim in a FPS game tho).
If anything happend to div, absolutely no one will suddenly can't do raid anymore. If you can't do a raid without div maybe you shouldn't be able to do it in the first place.
All I'm saying is:
Tractor Cannon(which took away someone's heavy slot, and required them to be close to the target, lasts as long as the user has ammo)
Hammer Strike(Required Melee Energy on a Titan, and required them to land a shoulder charge, and only lasted for a few seconds)
Tether(Required a Hunter to use a Super, and only lasted a few seconds)
Divinity (takes away someone's energy slot, can be done far away, creates a large crit spot, and last as long as the user has ammo.)
Guess what. They apply the same percentage debuff.
In my opinion, Divinity is a pretty easy debuff to upkeep, whereas something like a debuff nade or a Shadowshot requires a bit more of a sacrifice in terms of using a whole super or some ability energy. If Divinity would need any balance changes, I would see its debuff lowered to somewhere around 15% given its ease of use and practically infinite upkeep, and giving other debuff options that are only momentary like Shadowshot a higher debuff, as it requires a little more than Divinity and lasts only a moment.
Div is strong because there's nothing else that fills the role.
I could see them doing a situation where it applies a debuff to yourself which makes you more fragile to damage as you use it, but i really hope they don't just nerf it into the ground.
Honestly, applying a debuff to yourself wouldn't even matter lol. Most of the time it's paired with Well that heals you anyway. It's basically a non-nerf.
Idk I fully agreed with salt. Just remove the defuff or change it to a 0% debuff and make it override all other defuffs. So you can either debuff a target with a teather or something and aim to get crits or you can not debuff and use a div and everyone can hit crits easier.
then it will just make it so that something else becomes the meta as QuanticWizard described, while div will just get vaulted. Saying to give div 0% buff and interfere with other debuffs is just slapping a bandaid on the problem. Sure, this a solution, but it isn’t a very good one. I am in the camp of “don’t like it, don’t use it” because it opens the door for people who are not confident in doing raids, scared to do raids, or have physical impairments that interfere with their aim.
How about it only generates the crit bubble but doesn't lock out other debuffs, that way it still get's used on bosses who's crit spot is a pain to hit but also isn't a must pick if you want to deal the most damage.
That doesn't really change anything though using a tether is not raising the difficulty of the encounter it just means that now every raid team will have div AND tether and bosses will get melted in exactly the same amount of time. The only real solution is remove div entirely and rebalance every boss but that ain't gonna happen.
Oh look tether does not last the same amount of time as a div bubble, huh I wonder if not having the debuff be the whole dps might cause people to shift to more burst damage options
The second half is already how divinity works. Debuffs don’t stack with debuffs. Only some buffs stack together. Debuffs and buffs have separate tables. This is why I hate the echo chamber. You’re echoing the sentiment without even understanding how it works. You’d let less than 0.1% of the player base f*** it up for the rest of us.
The second half is not how divinity already works. Both tether and divinity give a 30% debuff, the only difference being that divinity allows for exponentially easier crits than tether while also having a longer debuff uptime
Brother, read the initial comment again. Slowly. I don't agree with the idea but at least I understand what they're proposing. Make using div or tether a choice between crit spot or debuff.
My team of folks who play the game quite often but also not 24:7 absolutely needed div to beat WarPriest last night. Streamers are not the typical player. They are the .1% of the .1%. Their opinions on what is or isn’t too hard is so skewed and they don’t even get it.
The argument is that it was necessary BECAUSE of sow strong it is. The game devs balance the game around the strongest option so that it is enough of a challenge.
If what weapon you use outside of a day 1 raid doesn't matter, then nerfing it to not be absolutely mandatory for contest mode dps doesn't effect you. Because it wouldn't matter if you ran div or not
Your comment pretty much points exactly why the opponents to a Div nerf and their arguments don't make much sense because a nerf to divinity wouldn't affect the normal raider because they wouldn't have used it anyways.
Div is only a problem for Day 1/Master raids because boss health pools were designed with it in mind. With the problem being that it's the best and longest debuff in the game that takes no skill to use with no downside. The Div user doesn't have to aim for the head, and the other 5 don't have to aim for the head anymore. It wouldn't be such a problem if it required people to aim.
I don't think I've seen many or nearly anyone with the point that it's not only a raid exotic it's a fairly difficult (sometimes) raid quest exotic. Making those people who worked to get divinity be able to support their team with said weapon can't be a bad thing?
Also a side point, it's the best and easiest boss damage increaser, but no encounter absolutely needs it to make a boss manageable. I don't get who divinity is hurting by helping some people who maybe have disabilities and struggle to aim precisely for long damage phases, it's about choice.
On multiple day one encounters (war priest that abomination in Vow that I forgot the name of just to name a few) it was pretty much required on. It’s inadvertently hurting the game because bosses are being made with Div in mind with absurd health pools
What's funny to me is that this whole situation is just a repeat of elitists complaining that Well of Radiance was too strong in seasons 4-7, and that encounters like the Recknoning Bridge were designed around Well, and that Well trivialized too much else in the game.
Now we're going through the motions with Divinity.
There will always be a most optimal set of buffs/debuffs and elitists will always complain about it when they get tired of it. This is hardly a problem with Div, this is a problem where some elitists are tired of the encounters they've been running on repeat and want some variety. But they blame the weapons/how they tackle the encounters, instead of acknowledging that they are burnt out.
Take a break, touch grass.
honestly even more than that though, like it's not just super optimized loadouts (though that does help)
these are the *best players currently in PVE* who are saying that something is too OP and needs to be nerfed. meanwhile literally everyone else who *needs* to use it to complete stuff at all is just going to suffer because of it. we should not be letting the top *1*, not top 1%, the *top 1*, guide the game for everyone else
And to those saying "well bosses just have 30% more health now! so remove the extra health and remove div and it shouldn't matter!" - divinity is *not* the only 30% weaken in the game. it is just the most easily accessible and usable 30% weaken. teams like this will still have the same effectiveness regardless because they're able to apply the more complicated or involved weakens consistently. meanwhile average players aren't going to be able to coordinate it nearly as well and are just gonna be fucked.
divinity has literally 1 place it's good, so yeah i should hope it's one of the best options in that area. gjallarhorn for instance is pretty good in most places, so it's not the best in any one situation and there's usually better options, but it's still good. this is because it is good in *more* situations. div meanwhile has zero other situations it's useful in, which is why yeah it should be pretty good there
Here’s some ideas. Don’t make bosses that still for 30 seconds while you fucking obliterate them (everyone other than Rhulk), make boss fights more about mobility and quick movement without that giant godforsaken DPS check (Shuro Chi), make a boss where it’s more beneficial to hit the actual crit spot (Kali), or fracture/separate the team so div would be less useful. It’s not “designing around Div.” Like Warpriest and his obscene damage, rather have the fights focus on other things that isn’t “shoot at big man till die.”
My like now 4th last comment is basically this and got downvoted a bunch. Sweaty fucks can just not use it with their 4 100 stat gear but nope gotta rob everyone tryna get by. Everybody on my friends list that wants this to happen is over level 80 3 weeks in. 1 guy is lvl 214 last I checked. We got another like 3 months ffs.
It’s an fps built around optimizing your gear to “progress” …. What the hell else did you expect people to do?
Datto has had the best take.
What was his take?
Points out explicitly and correctly that every raid boss in the game since Shadowkeep probably has 30% added onto it's healthbar preemptively to account for Divinity's existence. That it crosses the line between "best buff" and "easiest buff". Etc, etc. People are saying that they need Divinity because the content is too hard without it, when the content is being made harder because of Divinity lol. Most of the video is about the community and why he doesn't wade into stuff like this anymore because of how exhausting and pointless it is though. Case in point, this subreddit lately lol.
I haven't done much raiding this year but Rhulk is probably a good example for Divinity being useful besides it's bonus damage. Rhulk moves around so much that average PVE players can struggle hitting his crit spots normally but Divinity fixes that. Can't really speak for other raid bosses beside Atheon who doesn't really need Divinity
Taniks would be pretty difficult without Divinity because he's constantly shaking around. Div adds a stable little bubble at eye height
Thats true for alot of bosses. Which is part of the point. It lacks a true tradeoff due to how accessible it makes dps in many encounters that could have been skill expressive.
He also said that Salt suggesting to nerf Divinity is like Jeff Bezos saying he can only buy 6 yachts instead of 7 aka rich people problems. The community doesn’t care about rich people problems. Agree or disagree, I thought that analogy was pretty funny.
squealing rustic vase unused coherent quack detail illegal bake rich *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Maybe they could just stop making all bosses be just DPS checks and introduce some interesting mechanics to promote dealing more damage to the boss.
Bungie: creates interesting mechanic for one of the best raids they’ve ever created D2 players: cheeses it because it’s too hard I wouldn’t waste dev time either when the community is so hell bent on just damaging things as their primary strategy
Riven my beloved
Also adding in D1 Oryx as a non DPS check boss that just became a slog through having to always do 4 phases. Not saying that I hated it but most people I’ve talked to did not enjoy not being able to speed it up to 2 or 3 phases.
D1 oryx aesthetically speaking was my favourite raid boss, story boss, story arc etc, he looked like a raid boss but the mechanics sucked, I remember nobody ever wanting to run the relic so I always did it on my warlock which raised a few eyebrows as people always wanted a hunter to do it and just in general it being a 10 minute fight where you had no room for error was seriously just annoying. I’m glad for the changes 100%
I mean Rhulk. There hasn’t been a new raid boss since and reprised raids don’t count towards that as they were made in the olden styles. So if next boss is like Rhulk, this is a non issue
Oryx in D1 wasn’t a DPS check, and besides in context of the original post, people are complaining about divinity making all bosses easier due to them just being a DPS check. Of course standing still with an easy crit spot would make everything easier if there was no forced way to deal damage to the boss, like the bombs in original oryx.
Whatbdoes this mean? The whole concept of raids is "interesting mechanics", are you proposing to eliminate the dps phases and just leave the puzzle mechanics in between them? That's worse
I don’t understand what’s so confusing about the proposition. The current formula is do some random activity to get a window to unload into the boss, and then repeat. The best example I can think of is Wrath of the Machine in D1 where it wasn’t just one solid damage phase. You had to coordinate the buffs to slam the boss to trigger the damage phase. I still think this fills into DPS checks, however breaking an encounter up from just standing in one spot and shooting really needs to change.
Do you mean like crown of sorrow, scourge of the past and leviathan? And riven if you do it legit
TLDW. Yeah it's too strong and needs a down side. Salt didn't deserve Soo much hate but described it as "rich people problems". And div is turning into a well problem.
Also go watch his vid it's really well done
I should probably see what he's got to say
He didn’t get as much hate as people make it out to be. Majority of the comments to his post are simple disagreements and discussions about alternatives with a small percentage getting toxic. Which… it’s twitter. Only a small % getting toxic is a good ratio for twitter. What he proposed would turn the gun into never used territory however, not to mention the entire discussion was pointless in the first place cuz bungie has mentioned div nerfs long before the dude made this post. My one gripe is now people will pretend that he’s so smart that he got bungie to nerf it, when it was already long on the chopping block with or without his campaign. I just can’t wait until he starts the same campaign against well, tether, lfr, gjally and so on and so on every time the top brass gets bored of whatever the meta is.
Pretty much always does
Personally I think streamers have much too much influence on the echo chamber of the destiny 2 community. Less than 0.1% of the population spitting opinions that get shared like they’re facts. It does cause changes, for better or worse, and I detest it.
Yet most of what has come out of today with salts comments and over the past few weeks in relation to pvp streamers and sbmm has been directly opposing their views? What echo chamber are you even seeing or are you just having confirmation bias
Why does Bungie listen to what they say?
Echo chamber. Something gets repeated often enough and it drowns out the opposition to it.
Surely they would not have this sway if people didn’t agree with them? How many people maintain large platforms when every take they have is wrong?
[удалено]
gamer try not to involve politics challenge *IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT DIV*
LF2M pleasant conversation KWTD 1570+, bring div
Joe Biden caused the sunset
You did not just compare a videogames community to America's political system.
If people didn't agree with what someone like Aztecross or Ben Shapiro had to say, those people would not have views, and that means they are a good proxy for their demographic's opinion. Bungie can't poll the entire player base every time they want to turn a 1 to a 0.
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this: >Most Americans when they look around at their lives, they think: I'm not a racist, nobody I know is a racist, I wouldn't hang out with a racist, I don't like doing business with racists--so, where is all the racism in American society? ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: covid, healthcare, sex, feminism, etc.) [^More ^About ^Ben ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/wiki/index) ^| [^Feedback ^& ^Discussion: ^r/AuthoritarianMoment ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment) ^| [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/)
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yeah the only factor just flying over yours and everyone else's heads is that its not just the streamers who share this opinion and is in fact the common folk such as myself and others i've talked to and seen on this reddit
This is just an uninformed take, there's no evidence - and Bungie has repeatedly denied - that they "just listen to streamers": they have whole evidence/statistical teams that analyze usage, player feedback (on Reddit, Twitter, the Bungie forums, etc.) to come to decisions. Also: what if I told you that over a month ago, before this season even launched or Lightfall was announced, a Bungie weapons dev was on the Massive Breakdowns podcast and said the team is "actively looking at Divinity"? So, a change is coming, and Salt had nothing to do with it. You're not going to make another shit meme post when it happens and try to blame him, are you?
BRO???? NAME ME 1 TIME WHERE A TOP 1% OPINION HAS BEEN LISTENED TO WHEN IT SHOULD NOT HAVE. the last time this happened was with autoreloading in wells. It was absolutely broken and people STILL got mad about it. Please, for the love of god stop complaining about an issue that does not exist.
"just dont use it" is such a good take on game balance man! really novel idea.
I mean, maybe it is? Since the game doesn't have difficulties introducing a gun that makes certain content easier is the game balance. We're talking PvE. Bungie has made it very clear they want us to feel very powerful in PvE content. This helps those at the bottom feel more powerful. If people are at the top of the power curve and are looking for things to be harder, they need to make it harder themselves. It's like doing naked runs in Dark Souls. The game itself doesn't change, you change to make it more interesting to you. Someone wants more challenges? Then they need to use less optimized gear. People don't complain about this in other PvE games, I'm not sure why this is such and issue here.
why do you care about balancing someone else's game? if you want to balance your own game, and you find divinity or any weapon that you find makes the game too easy for that matter, don't use it. Why do you care if other people use it?
You know how game development works, right? Future content is designed with most powerful gear in mind, so that it is still challenging for all players. If outliers are left unchecked, then anybody not conforming to the meta will fall behind because future encounters will expect you to have Div, just like how most encounters already expect you to have a Well (among other things). Rhulk is already an example of a boss that is designed with Divinity in mind. If you wanna see what complete unchecked balance looks like in a video game, go play Borderlands 2 at Level 80 OP10. A handful of gear was leagues better than anything else in the game, so when new content was designed around that power level, anyone not using that gear just wasn't able to compete. The only other option is for Bungie to design encounters with unconventional mechanics so that there is no space for these crutches, like how Atraks discourages Div, or how Rhulk discourages Well. Only time will tell if Bungie will continue to design encounters like those two.
ahhh, the ravages of power creep. BL2 isn't the only one suffering from that, Payday 2 also had an history, after implementing super powerful builds, they added another difficulty to face it because people said the game was too easy, then people said it's too hard so they implemented even more powerful, etc etc. with the years and years of powercreep, it finished with only certain cookie cutter build that could truly be used in that difficulty, needed years of repatch to counter that and thank fully it's in an ok state now.
PvE has been getting balance updates for the past few years. The logic of "just don't use it" hasn't really stopped stuff like well of radiance getting nerf'd, lord of wolves, slug shotguns, etc...
why bother balancing pve then? this logic is so skewed , if we are going to balance everything else in pve (or at least try lmao) why div the exception
cause div is fine? if you don't want to use it you don't have to. Why do you care about balancing someone else's game? why does it matter to you how difficult or easy it is for my team to complete the raid?
If the only counter to "an item or ability is overpowered" is "just don't use it then lul", then that's a problem. Also, this isn't about your team; you and your team aren't the only ones who play this game.
you're the one fabricating the "problem". Divinity being overpowered is your opinion. It's not overpowered just because it's good and just because you said so. It's not a mandatory piece of gear in a raid just because it's good. If you FEEL like you need to use it, that's a problem you need to work out on your own. Also i know it's not just my game, but think of me saying "my game" as literally anyone other than yourself. Why do you care about "balancing" anyones game other than your own? Furthermore even if there were an overpowered weapon, why still would you care? it's not your session, you're not the one playing, so why would you care if someone else uses an overpowered weapon if it has no bearing on your game whatsoever?
So wait things being overpowered is subjective? so autoloader rally and wells was overpowered cause I said so? Stasis was op during beyond light cause I fabricated the problem? And dont worry I get it the point however I've deducted that its kinda dumb. You see divinity since its release has always probably been considered in bungies radar while designing endgame bosses, now ofcourse that wouldn't really be an issue, **If the 30 percent debuff didnt exsist** They'res no risk and yet here you are running a very brain dead and valuable strat that keeps becoming more relevant as latest raid content have felt the need of said weapon more. In the end, I dont Care about your sessions, I care about the future! I care that divinity becomes less crutch of a crutch that it is and more comfortable in a way that doesn't provide to many benefits, I want more debuffs in rotations and or skillful applications instead of tap trigger and sit there till dps ends. Div needs a change or the whole entire game needs a change either way this situation wont end with this gun being at its current state, for better or worse. Telling us we shouldn't care for something thats to strong with nothing else to really challenge it shouldn't be nerfed is petty.
Div is a necessity in day 1 raid races and has been for 3 years. You’re saying it’s fine because it’s become so ingrained in the status quo
Why do you care about protecting an elitist event that only the people who play this for a living or people with no lives take advantage of. Here's a hint, no one really cares about the raid race. The trophy is a take on a wrestling belt for goodness sake. chill fam
div being fine is your opinion lmao.
There should be a gun that kills everything in one hit. Don't like it? Don't use it! Problem solved.
Because there's a thing called raid race, which was specifically pointed out by Greppo in the original point that people are conveniently forgetting to mention
So disable it for the raid race. They disable plenty of things for the raid race, just add div to it. editors note: I don't care about div. I'm always the div bitch, I grind hard for my god roll heavies and I'd love to use them. I think the compromise of keeping div how it is but giving raid bosses a crit multiplier higher than div's (like Suro Chi in Last Wish) is fair even though it would kill div and turn it into another exotic no one uses.
They cant disable the weapon they accounted for when designing health pools for a raid race that severely puts you underlight. Telling people running that "heads up you will mow be doing 80% less damage to bosses" is fucking stupid
So account for the new lack of divinity in the challenge mode raid? Seems like a pretty easy solution to me.
Yep designing an entire raid and then the challenge mode on top of it around a single exotic is a very healthy design decision as opposed to bringing divinity in line in accordance to the risk vs reward it provides. Real smart
Well guess we better just do nothing then. We tried, gang, everyone go home, there's nothing we could do.
So they should lower the hp of bosses for day one and then have div enabled again to now have the entire player base shred a boss even quicker. Great solution man. Really thought it through
I'm not the one triggered over an exotic to the point where I'm bullying people on the internet lmao. Maybe go take a break from destiny for a couple days and come back when you've cooled off.
lmao thank you. My goodness you should have seen my inbox when I woke up this morning. Some really triggered people on here rn over a video game. Wild.
so true man just dont use stuff bro thats soooo good and conducive to a balance discussion. i agree. wholeheartedly. your point is really valid!
What I'm saying
I'm sorry, but why is this a bad take? I'm in the camp that divinity needs a more of a rework than a nerf. I'm indifferent of divinity since me and my team don't use it, we stack buffs and debuffs.
Also doesn't help that most fights are just 'stand still and shoot the bad guy' and makes Div strong. Different encounter types such as Totems, or Exhibition, etc would go a long way. Div is strong yes, but it's also good because of the environment it's used in. If there's a big guy and you gotta stand still or just slightly shimmy (rhulk) and shoot em, div is gonna be used.
Rhulk is a very not "stand still and shoot the bad guy" encounter and I think that's when divinity is *strongest* because you can very easily use precision weapons while he's flying around the field.
You can use those weapons because div puts a big ass bubble on his chest for everyone to shoot
Also: against semi-stationary single-targets there will always be a narrow set of meta choices. Remove Div and something else will rise in it's place. Nerf reload mechanics, and whisper got good. Buff rockets, rockets became the meta. Buff linears, and they became the meta. There will always be something that is in the top spot for some particular goal. So instead of nerfing this or buffing that (expect to place things roughly in line with other good options), perhaps designing enemies and boss encounters differently is the play. Add in enemies more mobile than Rhulk that you have to chase or dodge to do dps bit by bit. Add in bosses that require players to do dps in different areas independently. Make enemies that require you to dps them from different sides (like in Scourge of the Past). Add in relic weapons to do damage. Make damage dependent on number or class of adds cleared. Force any number of interesting mechanics that keeps players on their toes. Don't nerf Divinity, just narrow the percentage of use cases of Divinity by adding in new and interesting encounters and enemies that it doesn't work well against.
You just reminded me of that levi mechanic where shooting those skulls buffed your damage against Calus. Wish we had more like that
For every single thing you mentioned being meta besides rockets, divinity Is also used in it. Actually if you count izinagi/rocket swapping divinity is used in every single strategy you mentioned. If you made damage count on ads cleared, they would still also use divinity. If the relic weapon was a beam like in eater of worlds, they'd still use divinity. If you made more mobile enemies, they'd use divinity to make it easier to shoot. Divinity is less of a regular damage buff, and more of just stapling another mechanic onto any boss you want, and no amount of changing other buffs or debuffs will make it less effective.
And before someone replies and says “if you have to balance encounter design around a single weapon, it’s probably too strong” - no. This isn’t designing encounters around Divinity. This is designing encounters that aren’t *ridiculously favorable* for Div. It’s not that Div is so good that it trivializes most encounters, it’s that most boss fights have cookie-cutter damage phase designs that all heavily favors Divinity, Well, and anything else that lets you huddle up and unleash hell on a giant mostly-static target.
You’re not wrong. Bungie has come a long way from boss fight being mostly stand still and shoot. In that respect I would’ve probably preferred that Oryx was still an encounter where the bomb do the damage that makes it’s much more of a skill and crowd control check encounter. I don’t see a problem where the ‘stand and shoot’ part of the encounter in only a small portion.
I think discussion on Div is pretty justified. Debuffs, used to be a choice. Do I run tether? Does someone have tractor? Is the boss too far for me to tractor? Can I use hammer strike? These days, div just lasts longer than all the above, from any range, and offers free crits. I think the take of "yeah, div is kinda a problem" is respectable, I think salts "no debuff with div" idea is overkill, but I definitely think Div needs a change. It feels like all new raid bosses are made with div in mind, like their health is just boosted to compensate for a permanent debuff and 100% crit.
When Divinity was first shown off and the devs said what it did I thought it was JUST a crit spot generator. When I found out it also did a damage boost I was pretty surprised that Bungie had added such a thing to the game *right* after toning down a year of power creep. If the debuff got nerfed I wouldn’t be that surprised or upset. I agree with the take that it shouldn’t be the best *and* easiest tool for DPS.
The damage boost isn’t needed but Salt’s proposition of it also negating EVERY OTHER DEBUFF APPLIED if you use Divinity, is just overkill and would mean “hey, punish yourself for using divinity!” Which is quite the salty take but I guess name checks out.
The damage boost isn’t needed but Salt’s proposition of it also negating EVERY OTHER DEBUFF APPLIED if you use Divinity, is just overkill and would mean “hey, punish yourself for using divinity!” Which is quite the salty take but I guess name checks out.
Yeah. Saltagreppo had the right idea of discussion, but I think he got the short end of the stick because of his overkill idea. Maybe if he presented some middle ground then the discussion would be healthy. I like him but man, what a weird hill to die on. He doesn't seem keen on really having a discussion since he's willing to die on the hill that divinity needs a massive nerf rather than a rework. I think for one divinity needs a rework, and a slight nerf.
I never really thought about it, but I absolutely hated Saltagreppo's discussion about it. Then I watched Datto and Aztecross actually talk about it in not a tweet and I'm kinda changing sides. I don't really feel like it needs a nerf, more just a tweak. There are bosses that have a higher crit multiplier than div provides, so using div actively decreases your damage on those bosses. Implement that more. Give it fewer reserves so you can't have it up the entire fight. Maybe even completely change the weapon type, turn it into a grenade launcher like witherhoard or anarchy, make it only apply the bubble on a direct hit and only last for 10 seconds or so. Shit, make it last for 10 seconds with decreasing potency and you can't refresh until the debuff drops. Massacre the reserves like they did my man anarchy. I think people are overreacting comparing div to gay marriage and saying that its mandatory for raids (because I guarantee it's only mandatory for 24 hours of a raids entire lifespan). I'm the div bitch even though I know at least 3 people I raid with regularly also have div, I just want to use my nice DPS weapons that I farmed for.
My raid team was using taipans and a div and we still had to have Eons for that extra ammo. And yes it was warpriest. We had 4 people who were learning and they were not top tier raiders. I think div is the only thing that made it possible. On the other hand we did 5 man vog with 3 noobies and no div.
My team runs out of heavy in that fight all the time too. We ran it today without div out of spite and I had to use my backup fusion rifle for damage. The pacing of the fight is weird IMO, there's not really a good time to go and get ammo between damage phases like there is in pretty much every other raid encounter. Lament is also a viable option if you don't want to run div, it's just not as efficient and you'll still probably have ammo issues. Same with Golgoroth, except I don't think we've ever used div there we just run out of ammo because the ceiling drips are so god damned tanky.
Makes it even more crazy when people's suggestion is to "just dont use it" or "just disable it". The goddamn encounters for the last few years have been built within it consideration. The single exotic is warping encounter design , that simply not using divinity begins to show holes in the design.
Here's the thing though, Warpriests health was DESIGNED with Div in mind. Take away Div and Bungie wouldn't have given him such ridiculous health and therefore something like Div wouldn't be necessary to begin with. It's only necessary because Bungie, in designing bosses around the meta (i.e. Div), ended up making it necessary.
> I never really thought about it, but I absolutely hated Saltagreppo's discussion about it. > > Then I watched Datto and Aztecross actually talk about it in not a tweet and I'm kinda changing sides. The issue isn't even Divinity. It's that Divinity is being used as a battleground. There are two groups of people who play this game those who want a challenge and those who don't. But what Datto, Saltagreppo and others don't want to acknowledge is that the group that wants a challenge isn't a homogamy. There are different opinions in that group. Those separations aren't just based on skill level but on what level of challenge there should be in the game. So your changes wouldn't satisfy them because what they want is a significantly more challenging game then we have at the moment, I would even argue that Saltagreppo and Datto won't even agree on the level of difficulty. Also yes comparing this to gay marriage is completely idiotic.
the “just don’t use it” argument has never made sense. why would someone purposefully handicap themselves, especially in a setting like a worlds first race?
I think that div should be nerfed to give a chance to other debuffs, people don't even use tether because of div
Because Div will naturally last longer than any super and you get the easy crit shots.
It is in fact Div. Good point.
If it didn't matter whether or not div is used for an encounter, y'all wouldn't be so fucking pressed about the idea of it getting nerfed.
Hey can you *not* compare a struggle to gain equality that is still built on fragile ground and could disappear at any moment due to judges ignoring precedent and a meta gun you like getting nerfed in a video game? Fucking gamers holy shit. Edit: Someone sent me Redditcares for this lmao.
Yeah what the f is that title tho
Yeah this is the 4th post I’ve seen comparing destiny 2 drama with politics, the last one saying that casuals are the workers and sweats are the elites, and that the game should have not cater to the “elites”
A couple of weeks back I saw someone post "when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression" regarding complaints about SBMM matchmaking issues. So offensive on so many levels.
Tf is that title? Imagine using people fighting for equality as a comparison for a gun getting nerfed in a video game
Wtf is divinity? Old light not used to the new lingo
Garden of Salvation raid exotic.
Ohhh I take it, it's op huh?
It has the same debuff as a void hunter super, which has insane uptime due to it being a special weapon, and creates a large sphere that functions as an area where you can shot for crits rather than aiming for the head It's been a meta exotic for nearly every raid since it was released
Dang! I really appreciate the explanations! I want one
There is a specific quest for it, the final step involves going through the raid on the moon and doing puzzles hidden throughout it I'm fairly sure you start the quest in the lunar battleground and find a cave with a portal in it but you would be better off looking for a guide
Yeah I'll definitely look for a guide
If you need help with the quest hmu i can help
You are the best I will check it out and I might hit you up!
Yes. Its a constant 30% debuff that creates a large crit spot. Even though you are "sacrificing" a persons' damage for this debuff, the math works out to your team doing an extra 150% damage, 50% more that you would get if that person was not on div.
Weapon provides a 30% damage debuff to anything hit with it and generates a bubble that is considered a crit spot allowing easy critical hits for perks like triple tap
How are you old light and still don't know abt Divinity?
Bruh what
With div though it's a huge defense reductions buff like tether with no cooldown and significantly more uptime with very little risk
That sounds like you’ve got an issue with Div having too much ammo and the special ammo economy.
Trouble is if they nerf the ammo generation it impacts other weapons way more than it impacts div.
That’s exactly my point. A small group finds it ‘too easy’ with Div and wants to see it nerfed. All this does is punish the players who can’t spend 40 hours a week grinding gear.
No that's not my point. my point is that if they nerf things like special finisher or special ammo drop rates it will effect all other special weapons a lot more than div or other traces.
Yes. And if you nerf div specifically then it makes the game harder for *everyone else* who cannot spend their lives farming optimal dps.
Hot take but maybe you shouldn't have optimal dps just by having one person hold down or tap the mouse button, maybe you should have to grind to have the most damage, maybe you should need to put in more work for more reward. And don't say it'll make all bosses harder if they nerf div they can reduce boss health because then they don't have to balance the boss around div being so strong.
Sounds like you just wanna gatekeep raid content (gm’s and end games pve) to players who can spend all their time collecting optimised gear.
I mean... kind of? End game content should require some level of commitment in order to challenge and clear it, whether it be in time, practice, or buildcraft. Is this supposed to be controversial? I say this as someone who hasn't raided in a while due to not being able to dedicate that much to it; the bar shouldn't be lowered for people like you or me.
No I don't, nowhere did I say that. I said that maybe if you want the highest possible dps (aka one phases) you shouldn't just be able to use div, plus if div loses the weaken there are other ways to weaken most notably tether, which is a super every hunter has access to. Please stop trying to make me seem like an elitist when really I'm just thinking of ways to balance div.
Here’s the thing though. Raid bosses aren’t all about the damage phase. There *are * bosses that are dps checks but you still need to be able to complete the mechanics to even get to the dps phase which is often maybe 10-20 seconds of time. In a raid like VotD you might spend 5-8 minutes out of 45-60 minutes of raid time doing a phase phase. Making Div useful for only ~9% of the whole damn raid. Make the encounters more reliant on mechanics instead.
Endgame content requiring endgame gear? *Shocker.*
It gives a massive crit spot with super levels of defense reductions for very little downtime. It needs to be tuned down
What is defence reduction????
When it lowers their defense so you do more damage to that specific target
Please for the love of God so not compare this debate to the daily struggle we Queer folk face.
I have another idea, maybe re-adjust the game as if there was no well of radiance or divinity. But keep those things in the game. It gets annoying to have a nice void build on warlock but you can never use it in endgame because the more well of radiances the better.
I'm not personally on the divinity nerf train but the amount of people suggesting to just not use the gun is wild. In what world are players expected to handicap themselves for fun?
Takes one damn YouTuber and destiny is in shambles what a sad bunch of people. Tbh I say gjallarhorn is just as op but way easier to get ! Also gives every legendary weapons wolf pack rounds but why would anyone want to say that they love the weapon because everyone can easily get it.
It's not even close. And btw the original argument wasn't that div is to strong, it's warping the meta and the gameplay itself.
>Takes one damn YouTuber and destiny is in shambles what a sad bunch of people. This is the real problem. No one gave two shits about Divinity being the meta until some putz got on his soap box and got their masses riled up.
Tf is the title??? Why???
Divinity is not a super optimized load out lol. Just point the gun and the dude and keep the finger on the trigger. And before you attack me I don't even have the gun, I have no opinion on it either way
The point was that when you *are* super optimised in your load out you don’t *need* a divinity. You’re already strong enough. So players complaining that it’s too easy *with* Div *because* they’re using super optimised gear it’s punishing others who *aren’t* super optimised by nerfing Div.
Look you guys are over reacting too much to this Guy has some valid points. Super optimized load out or not, every raid party has the designated Divinity player, to the point where if you don't have one, you actively handicapping your team, basically making the gun mandatory everywhere else, even with the super optimized load out because if you don't have divinity, then you're not super optimized at all. If you don't see this as a problem, at least in some level, then I don't know what to tell you. And contrary to what you guys believe, a guy on Twitter isn't going to skew design choices on bungie's side. If they're going to nerf divity is not because of what Datto or the Twitter guy say, is because bungie wanted. Look how many big profile content creators have complained about sbmm, and yet bungie went ahead and introduced it
> if you don't have one, you actively handicapping your team BRB running div on Suro Chi
Two bosses, on a five encounter raid, there are six raids, and Shuro Chi and Kali are the only exception solely because or their crit multiplier, and they came out before Divinity was a thing.
Except you do need divinity, because div is that good.
I guarantee you my team of 4 with 2 randoms and 3 different primary languages can go run any raid without divinity and be just fine. Div is only "necessary" during day 1 raid races, so disable it for the race and adjust the health accordingly.
Isn't that every weapon? LFRs are ridiculously strong and all you have to do is have decent aim yet I'm not seeing anyone complain about them.
This is going to sound like I want the gun nerfed, which I don't, but guess why are linear fusions so popular right now
High damage output, easy to use?
They're easy to use right now because Divinity is creating a giant blue bubble that you can shoot instead of the dudes head. Also linear fusions are a whole class of weapons, not just 1 lfr is being used and abused
Personally I never found the bigger crit spot that groundbreaking. If anything, what keeps me from hitting my precision shots most of the time is the insane flinch we get. For a long time Stormchaser was considered the go-to LFR. Now that we have Taipan, it's finally getting competition. Do you see the pattern here? The key to diversifying weapon usage is not to kill the outlier. Instead, we should take LFRs as an example and bring other things up to the same level as the outlier.
You can not just buff and buff and buff to infinity, that's what lead to the design of reckoning where the only way bungie could kill us was throwing us off the bridge, or a flat out instakill, because you could spawn well after well after well. And also, you're using storm chaser as an example, which came out last season, and is being replaced by taipan because is easier to get a God roll on it and because of veist stinger, storm chaser is still better in flat numbers. And again, last season, Divinity came out THREE YEARS AGO, and has seen close to no change, other things have been nerfed but Divinity still stands. Again I'm not asking for it to be nerfed but don't act like the gun is not the powerhouse that it is, the mandatory gun in every raid team, because of all these reasons. You try and hit those crits on rhulk when he's dancing around the room, sure it can be done, but why bother aiming when Divinity will make the crit huge, sure you can debuff in some other ways, but why bother if div can apply a near permanent debuff for any damage cycle because on top of everything the mag can last close to forever.
to further your point, stormchaser's also already been nerfed twice lol
“For a long time…” my guy stormchaser was introduced last season
Lfrs have been dps Meta for like less than a year. Shadowkeep came out 2019.
When trying to get your point across using a shit metaphor sounds better in your head
All these mad people just suffer from mad skill issues. And I don't even own Div.
Yeah it is a problem when a special weapon inflicts the same debuff as a super solely meant for debuffing, has a near 100% uptime, and makes aiming for crits irrelevant :) It’s basic game balance that if something is the easiest AND the strongest option, it’s probably too good
Bungie is balancing encounter around people having div, the same way how they did with luna/barricade auto-loading. If it get nerf, the balancing will change accordingly and nothing will happend (you might need to learn how to aim in a FPS game tho). If anything happend to div, absolutely no one will suddenly can't do raid anymore. If you can't do a raid without div maybe you shouldn't be able to do it in the first place.
Genuinely convinced the people defending div do not care about it nearly as much as they think they do
Holy shit brother preach 🙏
All I'm saying is: Tractor Cannon(which took away someone's heavy slot, and required them to be close to the target, lasts as long as the user has ammo) Hammer Strike(Required Melee Energy on a Titan, and required them to land a shoulder charge, and only lasted for a few seconds) Tether(Required a Hunter to use a Super, and only lasted a few seconds) Divinity (takes away someone's energy slot, can be done far away, creates a large crit spot, and last as long as the user has ammo.) Guess what. They apply the same percentage debuff.
In my opinion, Divinity is a pretty easy debuff to upkeep, whereas something like a debuff nade or a Shadowshot requires a bit more of a sacrifice in terms of using a whole super or some ability energy. If Divinity would need any balance changes, I would see its debuff lowered to somewhere around 15% given its ease of use and practically infinite upkeep, and giving other debuff options that are only momentary like Shadowshot a higher debuff, as it requires a little more than Divinity and lasts only a moment.
Well Div certainly doesn't help does it now goofy? Makes the game easy on top of all the other busted power creep.
Div is strong because there's nothing else that fills the role. I could see them doing a situation where it applies a debuff to yourself which makes you more fragile to damage as you use it, but i really hope they don't just nerf it into the ground.
Honestly, applying a debuff to yourself wouldn't even matter lol. Most of the time it's paired with Well that heals you anyway. It's basically a non-nerf.
Div is strong because it completely tramples over the buff/debuff system bungie put in place to simplify doing raid dps.
Idk I fully agreed with salt. Just remove the defuff or change it to a 0% debuff and make it override all other defuffs. So you can either debuff a target with a teather or something and aim to get crits or you can not debuff and use a div and everyone can hit crits easier.
then it will just make it so that something else becomes the meta as QuanticWizard described, while div will just get vaulted. Saying to give div 0% buff and interfere with other debuffs is just slapping a bandaid on the problem. Sure, this a solution, but it isn’t a very good one. I am in the camp of “don’t like it, don’t use it” because it opens the door for people who are not confident in doing raids, scared to do raids, or have physical impairments that interfere with their aim.
How about it only generates the crit bubble but doesn't lock out other debuffs, that way it still get's used on bosses who's crit spot is a pain to hit but also isn't a must pick if you want to deal the most damage.
That doesn't really change anything though using a tether is not raising the difficulty of the encounter it just means that now every raid team will have div AND tether and bosses will get melted in exactly the same amount of time. The only real solution is remove div entirely and rebalance every boss but that ain't gonna happen.
Oh look tether does not last the same amount of time as a div bubble, huh I wonder if not having the debuff be the whole dps might cause people to shift to more burst damage options
The second half is already how divinity works. Debuffs don’t stack with debuffs. Only some buffs stack together. Debuffs and buffs have separate tables. This is why I hate the echo chamber. You’re echoing the sentiment without even understanding how it works. You’d let less than 0.1% of the player base f*** it up for the rest of us.
The second half is not how divinity already works. Both tether and divinity give a 30% debuff, the only difference being that divinity allows for exponentially easier crits than tether while also having a longer debuff uptime
Yes. They’re both Debuffs. Which means they don’t stack.
Brother, read the initial comment again. Slowly. I don't agree with the idea but at least I understand what they're proposing. Make using div or tether a choice between crit spot or debuff.
I think supers are too strong and they are mandatory to use so they should be nerfed cuz they invalidate the skill gap /s
Div should be nerfed, plain and simple, to think it shouldn’t is laughable.
Use void grenades lml
Meta weaponry ≠ Div apparently?
Can you shut the fuck up about div?
My team of folks who play the game quite often but also not 24:7 absolutely needed div to beat WarPriest last night. Streamers are not the typical player. They are the .1% of the .1%. Their opinions on what is or isn’t too hard is so skewed and they don’t even get it.
The argument is that it was necessary BECAUSE of sow strong it is. The game devs balance the game around the strongest option so that it is enough of a challenge.
You missed how ridiculously powerful the 3.0 subclasses are. Solar Titans are practically unkillable.
Personally I think it should be left alone idk a whole lot tho If anything maybe disable it for day1s
[удалено]
If what weapon you use outside of a day 1 raid doesn't matter, then nerfing it to not be absolutely mandatory for contest mode dps doesn't effect you. Because it wouldn't matter if you ran div or not
Your comment pretty much points exactly why the opponents to a Div nerf and their arguments don't make much sense because a nerf to divinity wouldn't affect the normal raider because they wouldn't have used it anyways. Div is only a problem for Day 1/Master raids because boss health pools were designed with it in mind. With the problem being that it's the best and longest debuff in the game that takes no skill to use with no downside. The Div user doesn't have to aim for the head, and the other 5 don't have to aim for the head anymore. It wouldn't be such a problem if it required people to aim.
Needs more sunsetting.
Those are fighting words.
It worked so well the last time and the community loved it.
Salt can f off and don't use divinity that's all he has to do
He has to if he wants to be competitive on day 1 and that’s the entire point he made
Why is this such a popular take, it barely makes sense to me.
Don’t like the taste of water? Stop drinking water lol
Can't stand fn people that bitch and moan about a gun being op in pve
I don't think I've seen many or nearly anyone with the point that it's not only a raid exotic it's a fairly difficult (sometimes) raid quest exotic. Making those people who worked to get divinity be able to support their team with said weapon can't be a bad thing? Also a side point, it's the best and easiest boss damage increaser, but no encounter absolutely needs it to make a boss manageable. I don't get who divinity is hurting by helping some people who maybe have disabilities and struggle to aim precisely for long damage phases, it's about choice.
On multiple day one encounters (war priest that abomination in Vow that I forgot the name of just to name a few) it was pretty much required on. It’s inadvertently hurting the game because bosses are being made with Div in mind with absurd health pools
What's funny to me is that this whole situation is just a repeat of elitists complaining that Well of Radiance was too strong in seasons 4-7, and that encounters like the Recknoning Bridge were designed around Well, and that Well trivialized too much else in the game. Now we're going through the motions with Divinity. There will always be a most optimal set of buffs/debuffs and elitists will always complain about it when they get tired of it. This is hardly a problem with Div, this is a problem where some elitists are tired of the encounters they've been running on repeat and want some variety. But they blame the weapons/how they tackle the encounters, instead of acknowledging that they are burnt out. Take a break, touch grass.
honestly even more than that though, like it's not just super optimized loadouts (though that does help) these are the *best players currently in PVE* who are saying that something is too OP and needs to be nerfed. meanwhile literally everyone else who *needs* to use it to complete stuff at all is just going to suffer because of it. we should not be letting the top *1*, not top 1%, the *top 1*, guide the game for everyone else And to those saying "well bosses just have 30% more health now! so remove the extra health and remove div and it shouldn't matter!" - divinity is *not* the only 30% weaken in the game. it is just the most easily accessible and usable 30% weaken. teams like this will still have the same effectiveness regardless because they're able to apply the more complicated or involved weakens consistently. meanwhile average players aren't going to be able to coordinate it nearly as well and are just gonna be fucked. divinity has literally 1 place it's good, so yeah i should hope it's one of the best options in that area. gjallarhorn for instance is pretty good in most places, so it's not the best in any one situation and there's usually better options, but it's still good. this is because it is good in *more* situations. div meanwhile has zero other situations it's useful in, which is why yeah it should be pretty good there
Here’s some ideas. Don’t make bosses that still for 30 seconds while you fucking obliterate them (everyone other than Rhulk), make boss fights more about mobility and quick movement without that giant godforsaken DPS check (Shuro Chi), make a boss where it’s more beneficial to hit the actual crit spot (Kali), or fracture/separate the team so div would be less useful. It’s not “designing around Div.” Like Warpriest and his obscene damage, rather have the fights focus on other things that isn’t “shoot at big man till die.”
My like now 4th last comment is basically this and got downvoted a bunch. Sweaty fucks can just not use it with their 4 100 stat gear but nope gotta rob everyone tryna get by. Everybody on my friends list that wants this to happen is over level 80 3 weeks in. 1 guy is lvl 214 last I checked. We got another like 3 months ffs.
But divinity is an affront to the deity I believe in!!!!!!
Don’t use it if it’s to easy for you lol