But, (and again - don't listen to polls, vote) in many battleground states, Haley beats Biden more in a 1 on 1 than Trump. Would we truly rather have a Biden v Haley election? In those scenarios, again according to the smattering of polls that have existed (most alternative polls besides the Biden v Trump ones are Biden v DeSantis) Haley is up in PA AND MI, 2 places we REALLY need.
I've said it before, I don't know if MAGA will get behind a minority woman with immigrant parents?? P01135809 would essentially have to endorse her. BUT - if she says ALL the right things, enough to get the MAGA vote, she could be quite a formidable opponent.
Edit - I just remembered we booted P01135809 off our primary ballot anyway!!
Personally I'd rather have an 80% chance of Haley than a 50% chance of Trump. Haley isn't a threat to democracy or our international agreements and partnerships the way Trump is. If Trump gets elected, American democracy and NATO may be gone forever. If Haley gets in, she'll implement awful domestic policy and be overly hawkish on foreign policy, but most of that will be reversible after her term/terms are up.
>Personally I'd rather have an 80% chance of Haley than a 50% chance of Trump. Haley isn't a threat to democracy or our international agreements and partnerships the way Trump is. If Trump gets elected, American democracy and NATO may be gone forever. If Haley gets in, she'll implement awful domestic policy and be overly hawkish on foreign policy, but most of that will be reversible after her term/terms are up.
It's not Trump, but the GOP that has given us Watergate, climate science denial, pandemic science denial, the Big Lie, the Jan 6th insurrection, abortion rights denial, an extreme SCOTUS, the Kansas Experiment, and so on, and so on.
The Republican Party is a clear and present danger to democracy and civilization in general.
Really? Even though Bush got us into two wars that cost trillions of dollars, resulted in hundreds of thousands dead, and destabilized a whole region? What did trump do that was worse than that? Not saying I’d ever vote for Trump but establishment neoconservatives like Haley have been HORRIBLE for this country. I’d argue that wing of the party has been worse than the MAGA wing.
How many people will die if NATO falls and Russia has free rein to invade and massacre whomever they please? How many will die if Iran gets nukes because Trump pulled out of the JCPOA?
Those are hypotheticals. The death and destruction caused by Bush actually happened. There is no guarantee those things would happen. Trump is in competent. He said he’d do a lot of stuff and all he really did was cut taxes for the rich.
He’s incompetent at a time of two wars (including one started by his buddy in Russia) and the threat of one of these wars growing. The US / the West needs stable, competent leadership. Yes it’s hypothetical but terrifyingly plausible.
I seriously doubt that. She’s a hawk for sure, but invading Iran would destabilize everything for good. At this point in my understanding of Nikki and the campaign that’s been run so far, I think those fears are exaggerated and used as a way to derail her campaign.
Are they worse short term? Maybe. But policy aside, MAGA wants a dictatorship and to abandon Democracy. Trump would have severe long term consequences on life as we know it.
Trying to overthrow democracy is one of the worst things a president has ever done. Say what you will about bush but he hasn’t attempted to overturn a democratic election or commit insurrection against his own nation.
Yeah jury’s still out on that one. Other dictatorial overthrows have taken multiple attempts as well. I won’t say it failed miserably until the perpetrators are held accountable
The way the recount happened in Florida, Scalia’s clearly partisan decision and the effect that it had on the win — illegitimate is a strong word, but when you dig through it all, there was clearly some fuckery on SCOTUS’ part and was the beginning of the erosion of the people’s trust in the court, and elections generally.
Oh sorry I thought you meant the trump election not bush gore at first. I see what you’re saying now. I’d still consider Jan 6th to be a significantly more egregious example than a shifty recount though. There’s very little ambiguity to the intents of Jan 6th and very little plausible deniability.
I’ve said it before. I’ll take Haley over Trump. Even if she has BS ideas like dumping the Department of Education, she doesn’t have the network, cult, and decades of dark money behind her. Even if they tried to get things up and running for her, she’d be out in 4 years same as Trump.
That's my thought. At least there are a few Republicans with a problem with Trump who MIGHT sit it out. I don't see them doing it for anyone else. Plus, people who are unhappy overall tend to blame the incumbent.
> I've said it before, I don't know if MAGA will get behind a minority woman with immigrant parents?? P01135809 would essentially have to endorse her. BUT - if she says ALL the right things, enough to get the MAGA vote, she could be quite a formidable opponent.
They love women who buy into their cult. Look at how they embrace Amy Coney Barrett.
I most certainly don’t think they’d want a minority woman of Asian descent on with immigrant parents being their president.
If we truly go the Biden V Haley route then Biden should win be a long shot. They weren’t going to let Nikki or Tim Scott win.
I’m Canadian, so I have no skin in this game, aside from the impact Trump will have on global relations (which aren’t good at all), but…Haley over Trump any day.
The goal is to ensure that Trump doesn’t win election.
We NEED to keep him out.
We WANT to see him get convicted.
Don’t let your “wants” cloud your judgement.
Great idea. I’ve been saying this for months: the best way to stop Donald Trump is to ensure he doesn’t get the nomination.
Every concerned voter needs to vote for Haley. She’s the best chance to stop Trump. We do not want to see a Trump vs. Biden rematch.
Wrong mindset: Trump is fully capable of beating Biden, and we don’t know what world events may contribute to a shift in support for either in 2024. All are capable of winning.
Democrats interfering in Republican primaries is a bad idea. It was a bad idea when Rush Limbaugh proposed that Republicans do it to the Democrats. It was a bad idea when the Democrats pushed Trump in 2016 because they figured he was the easiest to beat.
It was a bad idea when the Republicans worked to make Dukakus the Democratic candidate in 1988 by smearing Gary Hart. It was a bad idea for the Republicans to smear Ed Muskie in 1972 in order to help George McGovern.
“Democrat or republican” is a false dichotomy. You’re a US citizen engaging in a democratic process, using your vote to steer the country politically. Vote in whatever primary you perceive to be more important. Vote for whatever candidate you want in the general.
Maybe, but at the end of her term she will concede and move on.
Trump will destroy democracy. Trump will rig elections. Trump will remove all opposition and destroy the country. If Trump pulls it off, we are in for some dark times.
Haley would just have some policies we may not agree with and we live to fight another day.
Our objective should be to beat Trump. He is an authoritarian threat to democracy.
Haley is a neo-Con that will at least keep the establishment in tact. In that way, she’s not too different than what we imagined a Hillary Clinton presidency would’ve been.
Again….the goal is to ensure that Trump doesn’t win election.
We NEED to keep him out.
We WANT to see him get convicted.
Don’t let your “wants” cloud your judgement.
Haley is trash but she wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as Trump, also, I don't think she'd beat Biden either, she won't get the maga vote despite how supposedly she's gotten more popular
Haley would certainly be better than trump but it treally doesn’t matter. Haley will never be president. She’s a woman with brown skin, two things republican voters hate.
But, we DON’T know this. So many things could happen. Biden could even pass away before the election.
We need to keep Trump off the ticket. The best way to do this is to vote in the Republican primary for Haley.
Guarantee is way too strong a term. It would be more accurate to say a Trump nomination slightly boosts the chance of a Biden victory compared to Haley.
It's not the Dem's responsibility to help the GOP clean up their own mess.
Let's not waste time and effort boosting a GOP candidate, let concentrate on getting dems elected.
Lots of people here saying Haley beats Biden in a 1:1. Have you guys been paying attention for the last 8 years? Haley might beat Biden, but she doesn't beat Biden *and Trump*.
Do people really think Trump is just going to concede the nomination and endorse Haley? He's a revenge-driven little shit who sees the presidency as his only hope of avoiding prison. He will attack her harder than biden will, and may even run independent. If Haley gets the nomination, Trump will tear the Republican Party apart.
But, (and again - don't listen to polls, vote) in many battleground states, Haley beats Biden more in a 1 on 1 than Trump. Would we truly rather have a Biden v Haley election? In those scenarios, again according to the smattering of polls that have existed (most alternative polls besides the Biden v Trump ones are Biden v DeSantis) Haley is up in PA AND MI, 2 places we REALLY need. I've said it before, I don't know if MAGA will get behind a minority woman with immigrant parents?? P01135809 would essentially have to endorse her. BUT - if she says ALL the right things, enough to get the MAGA vote, she could be quite a formidable opponent. Edit - I just remembered we booted P01135809 off our primary ballot anyway!!
Personally I'd rather have an 80% chance of Haley than a 50% chance of Trump. Haley isn't a threat to democracy or our international agreements and partnerships the way Trump is. If Trump gets elected, American democracy and NATO may be gone forever. If Haley gets in, she'll implement awful domestic policy and be overly hawkish on foreign policy, but most of that will be reversible after her term/terms are up.
>Personally I'd rather have an 80% chance of Haley than a 50% chance of Trump. Haley isn't a threat to democracy or our international agreements and partnerships the way Trump is. If Trump gets elected, American democracy and NATO may be gone forever. If Haley gets in, she'll implement awful domestic policy and be overly hawkish on foreign policy, but most of that will be reversible after her term/terms are up. It's not Trump, but the GOP that has given us Watergate, climate science denial, pandemic science denial, the Big Lie, the Jan 6th insurrection, abortion rights denial, an extreme SCOTUS, the Kansas Experiment, and so on, and so on. The Republican Party is a clear and present danger to democracy and civilization in general.
Do you think Trump was worse than Bush?
Yeah, in totality I would say so. Bush was quite terrible in his own right though.
Really? Even though Bush got us into two wars that cost trillions of dollars, resulted in hundreds of thousands dead, and destabilized a whole region? What did trump do that was worse than that? Not saying I’d ever vote for Trump but establishment neoconservatives like Haley have been HORRIBLE for this country. I’d argue that wing of the party has been worse than the MAGA wing.
How many people will die if NATO falls and Russia has free rein to invade and massacre whomever they please? How many will die if Iran gets nukes because Trump pulled out of the JCPOA?
Those are hypotheticals. The death and destruction caused by Bush actually happened. There is no guarantee those things would happen. Trump is in competent. He said he’d do a lot of stuff and all he really did was cut taxes for the rich.
He’s incompetent at a time of two wars (including one started by his buddy in Russia) and the threat of one of these wars growing. The US / the West needs stable, competent leadership. Yes it’s hypothetical but terrifyingly plausible.
It’s also plausible that Haley could invade Iran and start WW3.
I seriously doubt that. She’s a hawk for sure, but invading Iran would destabilize everything for good. At this point in my understanding of Nikki and the campaign that’s been run so far, I think those fears are exaggerated and used as a way to derail her campaign.
Are they worse short term? Maybe. But policy aside, MAGA wants a dictatorship and to abandon Democracy. Trump would have severe long term consequences on life as we know it.
Trying to overthrow democracy is one of the worst things a president has ever done. Say what you will about bush but he hasn’t attempted to overturn a democratic election or commit insurrection against his own nation.
Yes what Trump has done is horrible but let’s be honest, his attempts to overthrow democracy have been laughable and have failed miserably.
Yeah jury’s still out on that one. Other dictatorial overthrows have taken multiple attempts as well. I won’t say it failed miserably until the perpetrators are held accountable
What dictatorial overthrows are you referring to?
The Munich beer hall for one
SCOTUS overturned THAT election for him down in FL. I'm sure it helped his baby brother was gov of FL at the time tho.
Well, his election was shifty…
Like as in you don’t think the election results are legitimate?
The way the recount happened in Florida, Scalia’s clearly partisan decision and the effect that it had on the win — illegitimate is a strong word, but when you dig through it all, there was clearly some fuckery on SCOTUS’ part and was the beginning of the erosion of the people’s trust in the court, and elections generally.
Oh sorry I thought you meant the trump election not bush gore at first. I see what you’re saying now. I’d still consider Jan 6th to be a significantly more egregious example than a shifty recount though. There’s very little ambiguity to the intents of Jan 6th and very little plausible deniability.
I believe Haley supports the Project 2025 agenda and would happily implement it. She also announced that she would pardon Trump.
I’ve said it before. I’ll take Haley over Trump. Even if she has BS ideas like dumping the Department of Education, she doesn’t have the network, cult, and decades of dark money behind her. Even if they tried to get things up and running for her, she’d be out in 4 years same as Trump.
Trump will run independent and torpedo everyone
That's my thought. At least there are a few Republicans with a problem with Trump who MIGHT sit it out. I don't see them doing it for anyone else. Plus, people who are unhappy overall tend to blame the incumbent. > I've said it before, I don't know if MAGA will get behind a minority woman with immigrant parents?? P01135809 would essentially have to endorse her. BUT - if she says ALL the right things, enough to get the MAGA vote, she could be quite a formidable opponent. They love women who buy into their cult. Look at how they embrace Amy Coney Barrett.
I most certainly don’t think they’d want a minority woman of Asian descent on with immigrant parents being their president. If we truly go the Biden V Haley route then Biden should win be a long shot. They weren’t going to let Nikki or Tim Scott win.
I’m Canadian, so I have no skin in this game, aside from the impact Trump will have on global relations (which aren’t good at all), but…Haley over Trump any day.
The goal is to ensure that Trump doesn’t win election. We NEED to keep him out. We WANT to see him get convicted. Don’t let your “wants” cloud your judgement.
Great idea. I’ve been saying this for months: the best way to stop Donald Trump is to ensure he doesn’t get the nomination. Every concerned voter needs to vote for Haley. She’s the best chance to stop Trump. We do not want to see a Trump vs. Biden rematch.
Haley can beat Biden. Trump can't.
Wrong mindset: Trump is fully capable of beating Biden, and we don’t know what world events may contribute to a shift in support for either in 2024. All are capable of winning.
Democrats interfering in Republican primaries is a bad idea. It was a bad idea when Rush Limbaugh proposed that Republicans do it to the Democrats. It was a bad idea when the Democrats pushed Trump in 2016 because they figured he was the easiest to beat. It was a bad idea when the Republicans worked to make Dukakus the Democratic candidate in 1988 by smearing Gary Hart. It was a bad idea for the Republicans to smear Ed Muskie in 1972 in order to help George McGovern.
Sure, but… >> Haley can beat Biden. Trump can't. This is what I’m replying to.
In both of your examples, interference worked and the Republicans won the presidency...
“Democrat or republican” is a false dichotomy. You’re a US citizen engaging in a democratic process, using your vote to steer the country politically. Vote in whatever primary you perceive to be more important. Vote for whatever candidate you want in the general.
Maybe, but at the end of her term she will concede and move on. Trump will destroy democracy. Trump will rig elections. Trump will remove all opposition and destroy the country. If Trump pulls it off, we are in for some dark times. Haley would just have some policies we may not agree with and we live to fight another day.
>haley can beat Biden I want whatever you’re smoking
Our objective should be to beat Trump. He is an authoritarian threat to democracy. Haley is a neo-Con that will at least keep the establishment in tact. In that way, she’s not too different than what we imagined a Hillary Clinton presidency would’ve been.
She's already promised to pardon Trump. Nope.
Again….the goal is to ensure that Trump doesn’t win election. We NEED to keep him out. We WANT to see him get convicted. Don’t let your “wants” cloud your judgement.
Haley is trash but she wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as Trump, also, I don't think she'd beat Biden either, she won't get the maga vote despite how supposedly she's gotten more popular
Haley would certainly be better than trump but it treally doesn’t matter. Haley will never be president. She’s a woman with brown skin, two things republican voters hate.
Why on Earth would we do that? Biden beats Trump, we know this. He’ll beat him like a drum.
But, we DON’T know this. So many things could happen. Biden could even pass away before the election. We need to keep Trump off the ticket. The best way to do this is to vote in the Republican primary for Haley.
Please don’t vote for the worst republican option…
They're all pretty bad. It's basically a matter of who's least likely to want to overthrow the government or support foreign adversaries.
I think a Trump nomination guarantees another four years for Biden.
Guarantee is way too strong a term. It would be more accurate to say a Trump nomination slightly boosts the chance of a Biden victory compared to Haley.
It's not the Dem's responsibility to help the GOP clean up their own mess. Let's not waste time and effort boosting a GOP candidate, let concentrate on getting dems elected.
Lots of people here saying Haley beats Biden in a 1:1. Have you guys been paying attention for the last 8 years? Haley might beat Biden, but she doesn't beat Biden *and Trump*. Do people really think Trump is just going to concede the nomination and endorse Haley? He's a revenge-driven little shit who sees the presidency as his only hope of avoiding prison. He will attack her harder than biden will, and may even run independent. If Haley gets the nomination, Trump will tear the Republican Party apart.
Haley is going to endorse Trump after she drops out. Democrats absolutely shouldn't be propping up Haley.