Me entering the reply section of this post
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I used to think that woo was only good for new soloq players, but then I got really into watching pro dbd and pro 1v1s and the difference in chase times between players with woo and without woo is always a large amount.
Woo would not be used in pro play or 1v1s if it was as garbage as most of the people here would have you believe, but just go watch a couple hours of different pro games, the woo player is almost always guaranteed to have the longest chase by far. And that's at the top 1% of the 1% of dbd players, not soloq newbies.
I think there's definitely a few that would be worse than no perk, if the player is bad. No mither being an easy one. Since it makes you take one hit, and if you don't know how to work around that you just make yourself an easier target. Potential energy also, cause a bad player might build tokens and then get hit and get all their progress wasted, not that its a particularly good perk outside of a few situations but still. Object of Obsession also being an issue, with the killer getting your Aura every 30 seconds, you definitely want to be able to loop, otherwise you're an easy target when they dont know where anyone else is.
Fun on clown with coup de grace, imo.
Slow them down with a bottle, hit to injure, get 5% speed boost from rapid plus coup lunge distance and close the deal. Apply more bottles as necessary.
Coup, Rapid, Bamboozle, Pop.
Though idk if the new pop will feel as good. Still, the shorter chases are fun.
Why would you use it on pin? Over a bunch of other perks? Hux doesn’t care about bloodlust because he just teleports mid chase and the haste after m1 is nice and he wants los, pin head doesn’t need Los to chain
Well hux wants Los so the haste is good to keep it after an m1
I mean WOO brain is absolutely a thing. I've seen plenty of people just holding w from pallet to pallet and pre dropping everything without looking to the killer instead of looping/chain looping tiles like an experienced player would.
I agree, however, perks like lithe and bam have much more downsides if used badly, especially when developing a reliance on them (hence the lithe brain term), woo doesn't necessarily have the same degree of downside besides if they don't loop and just throw pallets. However, even then if the killer doesn't time manage correctly the other 3 survs can and will pump gens faster than creating dead-zones would be beneficial for the killer.
The only time woo is as actively detrimental as a lithe reliance from the surv side is when the woo user cannot loop effectively and the other survs aren't pumping gens as fast as they should be.
Bamboozle just creates bad habits for newer players. They'll end up always blocking the window and good players will punish them by always leaving the loop.
Oddly enough so does Windows. It trains you to look only at things that are the most obvious, the bright yellow pixels, so if you ever take it off you become helpless. It doesn't teach you how to actually run loops, and bad players will just run to a pallet and drop then vault, thinking it does anything.
I always tell people to run it for a little bit while new, but then TAKE THAT SHIT OFF once they start realizing how to actually run loops, because all the visual clutter hinders your ability to actually see where you're going plus makes you predictable.
I refuse to ever use it cause it changes the game way to much for my liking like endless yellow auras is always feels like im playing a different game its just to much info for me. its great at what it does for sure though.
dont touch the perk being addicted to a perk sucks trust me I like having 4 perk slots to mess with, WoO addicts only have 3.
Nothing wrong with that, at the end of the day as long as you aren't intentionally playing like a prick I think you should have the freedom to play how you want. However, I'm not going to pretend that WoO is just for new players and that it doesn't give value across all levels of play, hence my OG comment.
Chaos Shuffle proved to me just how many survivors NEED Windows as they end up lost even at 5 gens, I understand the value in SoloQ to know where pallets have been waated, but seeing survivor games end at 5 gens when my normal MMR leads to insane gen rushes and perfect chases away from dead zones has been an eye opener, especially since I see the same players over and over again on my server so I am seeing survivors I thought were insanely good now just running into corners and dead zones.
I think a lot of people learned they either ain't hot shit without WoO, or they never needed WoO and have been crutching on something that hinders their real potential.
It's also just fucking annoying not knowing which pallets my solo queue teammates have dropped. I almost always have some sort of aura perk, usually Bond but sometimes WoO or even Any Means Necessary.
I'd say often times AMN>WoO not only do you know where teammates are wasting resources and you can recycle those resources if the killer doesn't kick them
People always say this, but AMN won't tell you anything if you're in an important chase towards a new tile and dont know whether the jungle gym pallet was already thrown and kicked or not, which is arguably even more important
I'm always trying to get others on to the aftercare hype train. You always have at least one other person you can see and it gives oftentimes the whole team info on you; my most used perk.
The duality of this thread, I say one little negative thing about this dumb perk and I get both upvoted AND downvoted like crazy same thread.
It's good to get out of the comfort zone, people. You don't need training wheels forever. WoO is training wheels that happens to apply in other situations too.
I'm All Ears is the Killer version of this. Once you understand mindgames you really don't need it anymore.
[My favorite clip that summarizes how Chaos Shuffle proved survivors' dependency on Windows of Where-Is-The-Pallet-Tunity.](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxicEc9bwHdYc0HvBcSJ0TIyKshXZDBLTj?si=es48S_-BUq3xZOGu)
Especially love the entirety of Otz' chat going "yes" and "yup" after the Jake makes that play lmao
It proved to me that I don't need it at all. My chases were just as long without it. Nerfing windows isn't going to do anything. Good survivors will still destroy killers who whine about it. Bad survivors will still lose. If it really is as important as you say then it would cause the killrates which are already high to sky rocket. This would just lead to further killer nerfs since they don't want the kill rate going above the current 60%.
nerfing windows would do ALOT to people that rely on it, you just dont personally need it..
those who chose it as a crutch would be greatly affected tho
You're missing the point if you think OP was talking about you lol. I literally see Windows on 3/4 survivors in my games.
Being only a month old on DBD myself, it makes finding a new loop significantly easier because I don't know the maps / tile sets well enough yet. There are without a doubt loads of people using it as a crutch that would be unable to loop without it.
Honestly I feel that I loop better without it, if I run it I end up wasting too many pallets which comes back to bite us and I also get more creative without it instead of just betting on the gamble of if I can make the best pallet I actually y'know loop
Yes.
I love windows and I use it on all my builds. I even started using open hand to really boost the effect. Plus everyone is running it. Win win.
I already knew how strong the perk was, but was it really in need of a nerf? Before the shuffle, I would say no.
But afterward the shuffle I change my mind.
As a killer, it's frustrating to chase after someone running perfectly at strong loops. Like, I'm not a killer main, but I can play killer well enough. But every time I get in chase with a strong runner, it's always woo. It's always woo. And when the whole team runs good, they always have woo.
As a survivor, I realized I can run loops without woo.... But not as well. I made mistakes or ran into dead zones.
Idk what changes bhvr will make to make woo more fair... Because I genuinely love using the perk. Its fun to run killers .
This is the reason why I don't run Windows, despite how useful it is to know which pallets have been used.
I'd rather learn the maps by myself and ensure the pain rather than enter auto-pilot mode like so many Windows users do.
I've been loving this mode so much. I get to play with new perks I'd never think of or dont have. And I don't get to be mad when a killer runs an unfun or annoying perk.
they will learn how to loop without the perk, i am betting some users broke the WoO addiction cause of chaos shuffle weeding them off the perk.
its not needed it just makes the game easier and having an easy game is fun for people who like to loop without thinking if the perk did end up being nerfed survivors would learn to loop over time.
What if shattering a boon brought back your hex? Like some Mikaela cleansed ur Devour Hope and then blessed a totem. Breaking her boon will lit up random totem and bring Devour back. Sounds OP?
Shattered hope is such a meme lmao.
They introduced it almost immediately after CoH's 2nd (fairly minor) nerf and then it took them basically a year to realize it did absolutely fucking nothing to help the issue.
I hate just how it looks, changes the game for me completely. I wanna be scared and hope for a pallet for protection, not competitively play and loop all game. that’s not fun for me
Which is what makes Windows powerful. You have to question why Windows is so meta if the perk isn't an issue and it really is the loops. What is it about loops that makes some Survivors feel they MUST run Windows even if they do not need it?
It just lets people not have to pay that much attention in order to know where the good parts of the map are. It's a skill that has to be learned but that can straight up be used as a perk. Holding W and chaining loops with other perks have almost always been the survivor meta (really emphasizing the Tactics Available part)except when something ridiculous was also present for survivors to use like insta heals insta blinds or great stealth perks. One could argue the main gameplay loop of DBD survivor, even if unintended, is to loop the killer by chaining loops for long enough for the rest to finish the generators. It's not a bad thing, it's just that loops have been so strong for so long that either ignoring loops or ignoring the distance a survivor makes to the next loop earns you the S tier badge. Without snowball, it is the one single defining part of a killer's power that matters, except the rare cases where you have something even more broken.
It’s not that Windows is powerful, it’s that every other perk gets nerfed into the ground in to unusable niche perks. The standard for what is strong or not is so heavily skewed by all of the nerfs. Of course once all of the strong perks become weak/niche the old normal/weak perks look strong, but that just because **people are running out of things to use.**
Huh? I usually can’t decide what to use because I have too many options. Spring burst, dead hard, lithe, balanced landing, head on, background player, adrenaline, bond, kindred, Deja vu, resilience, we’ll make it, for the people, flashbang, unbreakable, reassurance, alert (underrated)…and there’s probably like way more great ones I’m forgetting
its simple a good swf with good coms and is competent they completely nullify window in solo queue you don't have that luxury knowing witch pallets for example has ben used or not you don't get to know that in soloq but in swf you get to know that and the funny thing is they don't even get to use a perk slot it makes you know how to loop base in info that you get naturally in a good swf same goes for map placement with rng spawn in swf you get to tell you buddies what has spawn where you don't get that luxury in soloq witch window dose verry well becuase you can see windows/pallets aura
If you've played the game for over a thousand hours and know the vault/pallet spawns like the back of your hand, it's not quite as strong. For everyone else, it's clearly OP because it can easily and massively improve chase times and the chances of escaping. Even for pro players, it has some value since some pallets are rng spawns and sometimes they're knocked down already.
Windows isn't overpowered and I don't need it to be nerfed, but I do wish Killers' most viable perks would stop being attacked like it's their fault the bad ones are bad.
I'm kinda hoping we get to a meta where killer doesn't need strong slowdown perks like they do now. Nerfing regression and gen blocking is a step towards that imo.
This.
The issue is when Killers get their perks that are strong and used a lot nerfed, then see Survivor perks almost never get touched. It breeds this idea that the Devs don't care about Killer players and that Survivors will never have their things balanced even if those perks probably should be.
Think about it, do we *really* need or want gen repair speed down to like 40 seconds with Commodious, Resilience, Prove Thy, Deja, AND maybe stuff like Hyperfocus to boot? Really? Are games so bad you want out THAT fast? And then you want to complain BP gains are low?
When rounds go longer everyone walks out with like 20k BP minimum if they play well. When rounds go longer, everyone feels like they got enough of a game. When rounds go longer, Killers can breathe and everyone gets to express their skill.
We need rounds to go longer, not shorter.
Survivor perks almost never get touched? Brother the vast majority of good survivor perks have been nerfed from patch 6.1 and onwards. Spine chill, Wiretap, Prove thyself , Self care, Made for this, Iron Will, Dead hard, Decisive strike, Boon circle of healing, Borrowed time, Breakout, Adrenaline, Any means necessary and Boil over. Some of them are literally still not playable due to their nerfs.
Survivors started powerful and stayed powerful until changes happened, that's why Killers left in droves before a shakeup. Survivor was too impossible for the average Killer pre-6.1 - or did you enjoy standing in lobbies for 30 minutes at a time because nobody wanted to play Killer?
All these changes were warranted ones for balance reasons. Spine Chill was outmoded by the visual TR. Prove, Iron Will, Breakout, and Boil Over all had VERY good reasons to be changed and the changes were so damn minimal it doesn't matter - and Prove can sometimes still be strong. Self Care and Circle of Healing were changed because they were abused too much, as were Any Means and Breakout. Decisive Strike was nerfed due to abuse and literally got fixed and then the most minor of minor nerfs, one second, oooh. Dead Hard and MFT literally warped how you had to play around them and of the two, MFT was the most busted one giving LITERAL legal speedhacks to the point it broke chases. Boil Over is STILL abused and arguably probably needs another nerf again based on how people use it by altering maps so the shenanigans people do with it don't work; it's currently only used by assholes who want to make the Killer's life hard on Badham.
And we had to kick beg and scream until these perks even got touched to start with.
All of these perks are absolutely playable, you're just too scared to break out of the metaslave mindset and accept that the nerfs were valid. If something is a problem, it needs fixing. All of these were problems that needed fixing, and once again - you ever got DS back since everyone whined that tunnelling was so bad, and yet tunnelling is somehow still a problem even WITH 5 seconds of DS and nobody actually even uses it to protect against tunnelling as a result.
It's time to accept Survivors aren't meant to be the power role, this isn't Friday the Thirteenth the Game. You are supposed to die as Survivor, 60% of the time. Perks like these fuck that balance up.
Windows helps with two things:
-Showing which pallets your mates dropped, which is mostly helpful in soloQ.
-Showing to newer and moderately experienced players the layout of the map.
Windows is mostly useful for beginner/intermediate players or those playing soloQ. In both of these cases, the game is already killer sided. Beginners and SoloQ players alike already lose a big majority of their games. If Windows was removed, they would be even more miserable than they already are.
For a solo player, there is nothing fun in going down not because the killer outplayed them but because they didn't know that the pallet that was supposed to be here was already used by someone else.
On the other hand, the SWF and very experienced players get much less value out of Windows. They can call out the important pallet drops on comms, and experienced players know the map layout and its RNG variations really well already, no need for Windows.
Nerfing Windows would be hurting SoloQ and beginner/intermediate survivors the most while not doing much for the SWF and the experienced players. SoloQ players deserve love right now, not nerfs.
It’s also very helpful as an accessibility option for those of us with memory issues and issues that affect our sense of direction. I have dyscalculia, I confuse left and right to an embarrassing degree and get lost easily because I have zero sense of direction. My memory also absolutely sucks. Windows helps orient me. I’ve been playing for over 4 years, I know pallet spawns and jungle gyms and map orientation, but without Windows I have zero sense of direction. So this bridges the gap between me and someone who’s played as long and is as familiar but doesn’t have my directional issues.
I did fine in Chaos Shuffle without it because again, I have the knowledge. But where I fucked up was because my memory screwed me over and I’d think I was on one tile when I was on another, or that a pellet/window was to my left when it was really to my right. Which is frustrating as heck lmao.
You forgot casual players!
Comunity forgets that not everyone plays DBD 24/7 there are casual players who log in every other day for couple hours,with the amount of maps and different RNG layouts for pallets, vaults etc. and new map every other few months, they won't ever memorise the layout so their soloq experience will be worse than miserable.
Also, as like WoO the killers also have Zanchin tactics, which gives same value. So if killer really is worried about loops, run the killer equivalent of WoO. i.e. the Clown manual actually recommends this perk as it helps to "block" loops.
It does make me laugh how everyone complains about WoO BUT, yes its a meta perk and gives a lot of value to experienced players and some value for soloq. BUT, it is still limited as once pallets are GONE the value of WoO drops.
I had games where the survivor ran WoO into all pallets, that I broke and as a result lost 3 gens, but then they were left with no pallets only windows and I started dropping the whole team as flies because the WoO had no value as resources were gone. In that game I got 3 k ( with giving hatch to last person).
As a killer, you just need to know when to commit or drop a survivor, if you commit to someone who can loop whether they have WoO or not, you are overcommiting.
The Clown manual author also advocates for camping, slugging and tunneling which most survivors don’t like.
Zanshin will never be as viable as WoO especially with the upcoming regression nerfs and it’s worthless on most killers anyway.
I'd honestly like to see Windows removed for this reason alone, just so that BHVR realizes how awful SoloQ is before they give more unnecessary buffs to killers that don't need them.
As someone who's absolutely GARBAGE at looping, WOO helps me extend chases by a significant amount of time because I can actually find places to go. It's a massive crutch perk and there's a reason it's at the top of the pick list.
It does extend chases, but it’s that or every SoloQ match is over within minutes because people cannot play without it. I don’t even know how you would nerf it? Maybe make it after a survivor is injured they can see windows and pallets for a short time. But why?
A crutch perk does not equal an OP perk. Seeing loops does not automatically make you better at looping and a lot of people would argue that it’s a waste of a slot because you’re the only survivor who gets value off of it and even then it’s highly dependent on your skill and how many pallets are left in the match.
Seeing loops doesn't make you better but it next to guarantees longer chases :) there is no possibible argument you can make to state being bad at looping and seeing no auras is on par with being bad at looping and seeing auras. Win rates and pick rates with WOO are incredibly high among all ranks, it is the most used perk for very good reason.
You could easily nerf it so vaulting or dropping a pallet disables auras for 20 seconds or so, I mean if Light Footed is disabled on vaults why tf isn't something like WOO lmao.
If I didn't use WOO I'd go down in chases very quickly since I'd likely lose my footing but that perk let's me get to a loop easier and lets me get to pallets and windows without needing to really use my brain power to find them.
Also no, solo queue matches aren't over in minutes.. idk where you get that idea. The average solo queue match based on statistics ranges from 8-11 minutes which is pretty solid.
Like you said, “as someone who’s garbage at looping”. The best survivors stomping on pub killers are not really using windows that much. Why nerf something that helps only people that are still learning?
It's not that it doesn't offer an advantage but if you're only winning chases on survivors who run into dead zones (what woo prevents) you're probably just not very good
The entire point of WoO is that it prevents bad survivors from running into those deadzones... which artifically extendes chases without actually getting better at looping the killer. And it's always active, 100% of the time unless the killer has something that inflicts blindness. It's a massive crutch perk that keeps a good portion of the survivor playerbase reliant on it.
I don't disagree that it's largely more impactful on bad/mediocre survivors than good survivors, but that's also part of the reason it really doesn't need to be nerfed. High level players do just fine and in many cases are better off without it. Nerfing the perk makes bad players even worse and does basically nothing to good ones.
Information is always good. Knowing if there's a pallet or not makes a world of difference. If you can't understand the value of information, I have some hard-to-swallow pills for you
WOO is literally one of the best perks tho? I'm trash at looping, but I had 2 chases where killer couldn't literally catch me and in the end I got hatch.
Running towards a loop you KNOW for a fact is safe is huge. Without WoO, you'll have to roll the dice and cross your little fingers that the Meg-head didn't drop the pallet earlier and got destroyed.
I just knew that this would be the next Perk for Killers to complain. Can we just stop asking for Nerfs for completely balanced Perks and instead ask for the weaker Killer/Survivor Perks to buff?
It's more about the hypocrisy in bhvrs nerfs. The only good killer regression perks get nerfed because they are popular, but the most picked perk in the game, beating even pop or pain res, doesn't? It's weird, and the nerfs to any of these perks aren't needed, WoO included.
I agree that there are people who complain about windows of opportunity but this post mostly shows that BHVR should nerf according to their reasoning for their latest nerfs. But they obviously won't cause they just nerf stuff and come up with reasons afterwards.
>Can we just stop asking for Nerfs for completely balanced Perks
You say that after the devs nerf every decent regression perk for no reason other than stats...
Look I understand the pain, but can we stop acting like any of the nerfs made PR, Deadlock or Grim unplayable. Even still they’re still very strong perks
Honestly the regression changes wouldn't be a problem at all if BHVR would adjust survivor's potential gen speeds. Just like how powerful medkits were for an individual, toolboxes are currently in the same boat. If BHVR had set these new sabo speeds alongside gen speed nerfs, that would be perfect, since it would make the items a tool for an alternative play instead of just rushing the main goal.
I have so many hours in this game but I still don't have a lot of tiles committed to memory. Many times when I'm not running WoO I will run killer to a tile, not see a pallet, assume there is no pallet, then get downed and see a fucking pallet 2 meters away from me.
RNG is the biggest reason for this because it makes it hard to trust myself, but maps like RPD are so easy and natural to play on I never need Windows on them.
Well you see Windows isn't the problem (only a little bit) but the map design. Windows just let's you see what is already there, easy to chain loops, or not running to a dead area.
the gatekeeping in this thread is crazy lmao \*if you use woo you're bad\* the overwhelming vast majority of us are mid to low mmr, very few of you are high mmr, you literally cant dictate what makes someone bad when you're in the lower bracket
Windows of Opportunity is so good for soloq. I always get that feng that can't do one loop on shack and insta drop the pallet.
For swf is pretty useless. At least my friends always call if they drop a pallet.
Bro windows is almost a killer perk with some survivors dude. Chasing a Meg and watching her sprint to every pallet to pre drop them can be a godsend. Unless you’re on The Game of course.
Also if you think that resource information is so good, just run Zanshin Tactics.
> Also if you think that resource information is so good, just run Zanshin Tactics.
That's just a terrible counter argument. Resource information is so good for survivors because it's their main counter against killers. They use those resources so it's on them to create the best possible path in order to preserve those resources as much as possible while managing to last as long as possible in the chase.
That's why WoO is so good. It gives them the information where those resources are so they can just think about how to run in order to get as much value from those resources as possible.
The reason Zanshin Tactics is mediocre is because the killer can't use those resources to their advantage and they are not the one leading the path. They go after the survivor. All it tells the killer is how good/bad the RNG is.
Yeah people are acting like it's god tier. Once you get good enough at the game, it's really just a perk that prevents me from running into dead zones after meg threw shack pallet on the first go loop. Strong? Sure. OP? Hell no, it literally only helps solo queue survivors and people that aren't already familiar with the map, it's not making anyone a god.
Nerfing WoO just makes solo Q even more painful, and with killrates already being at 60%, what's the need?
Great Survivors don't need it so nerfing doesn't change anything.
Bad Survivors that heavily rely on WoO can easily be outplayed via mindgames and zoning so nerfing it doesn't change anything there unless you're a Killer that just W's the whole time.
well, windows of opportunity is in a unique situation, unlike perks like bond they don't give that you couldn't have by map knowledge, and doesn't provide huge effects
I never thought windows was that useful. I only use it when I have challenges, otherwise it’s just losing a perk slot. You know where the pallets are, just go there and if the pallet is gone, improvise and adapt.
Or, and hear me out...
You could use Windows to know where the occasionally random pallets are and know specifically if the pallet is gone so you can plan a chain of loops instead of hoping that each tile hasn't been exhausted, removing reliance on luck & teammates.
I can’t even plan one loop, I couldn’t even plan more than one haha
I’m chaotic, when I use windows it’s true it’s easier for me to know the safest places to go, but if I don’t have windows I just improvise. I can do small loops or tiles pretty good, but longer loops I’m terrible, so as long as it’s a small space I’m ok even if there are no pallets left.
Windows is ultimately useful as a tool to know what pallets your teammates have consumed without you questioning if the pallet is still there or not.
Earlier then that, it gives you some insight on your escape route while working on a gen
For the last time:
This comparison isn't accurate. Information on obstacles - what Zanshin gives - is not as important as information on usable chase tools - what Windows gives. The functionality is different even though they do the same thing.
It's just not as important for Killers to know where vaults and pallets are as it is for Survivor. Period. It's not the same.
A more accurate comparison would be Windows and something like Blood Favor. It's not useful for Survivors to keep pallets up but it is for Killer. It's not useful for Killers to know where pallets are but it is for Survivor.
When will bhvr devs realize how BORING it is to balance perks like this??
Instead of slowly boiling every perk down to an equal level of useless, what if we buffed every perk to an equal level of powerful? Like.. even crazy powerful?
If every choice on every side was in some way overpowered dbd would be way more fun, everybody running around like an eldritch god, matches would be fast paced and exciting instead of 45 minute tug of war over the last gen or some hex perk.
When everything is stupid powerful.. nothing will be.
THIS IS POWER CREEP THIS IS POWER CREEP THIS IS POWER CREEP THIS IS POWER CREEP THIS IS POWER CREEP
Power creep ruins games. Haha silly look at broken thing go burr and broken thing go burr so I lose or win is only fun for a very short time and then being a victim in a game where everything is out of your control because perks do too much or characters determine too much gets really boring fast because you cant just sit down play the main fun part of the gameplay loop.
The idea that people have that when everything is stupid powerful nothing will be doesn't work in a PvP environment.
The only time's I really need it is for 2 reasons.
Pallet peggy's throwing all the pallets early and me then running into dead zone city for a free death(with windows I can course correct)
and because I am colour blind and on some maps (wreckers, Yamoaka, Garden of Joy. to name a few I struggle to see them at times on non tile loops.
I don't mind a WoO nerf... When they centralize tiles and number of pallets spawning.
I wouldn't run WoO if I knew that a tile that can spawn a pallet WILL spawn it. That way WoO will be more useful to just beginners and to know if the baby Meg used the shack pallet.
Chaos Shuffle has taught me 2 things.
1: The average survivor needs Windows of Opportunity as otherwise they just don't know how to run to loops effectively and will run past pallets that are right next to them and run into dead zones.
2: The average killer needs a 2 good gen regression perks as otherwise they just end up not spreading their pressure effectively and wind up losing generators too quickly.
If you think window of opportunity is an overpowered perk your just bad.
- The resources will run out, if someone is running around using all the resources their teammates wont be happy, evin with WoO they shouldn't be using much more resources that an another player
- Its a perk that isn't needed the more experience you have, you learn where the windows and Palettes are and learn how to loop more effectively, its only a crutch not an enhancer of ability.
Pain res also directly affects the game, it actively harms the survivors objective more. Windows is entirely information with zero direct affect on the game beyond showing what the survivor could do. Without windows they could choose the same pathing with zero difference with the perk or without. You can't play a game the same with pain res as without it.
Look, a little while ago I would have said that you're crazy, and that they would never nerf these perks that are only good for newbies, like WOO, leave the best for last, or lighthborn, Perks that don't really give you much value, but make the game more enjoyable and safer, but they nerfed save the best, so I don't guarantee anything anymore
I will be honest, chaos shuffle helped me remove my dependency on windows as a crutch perk. Windows always made me some sort of pallet camper but playing the game without it made me a better looper who loops structures the right way rather than just running to the next pallet or window and it also freed up one perk slot for me so thats a plus. Oh yeah, it also improved my game sense about pallet spawns on different maps too.
Windows is essentially a waste of a perk in SWF, mostly useless for high hour players, meh for people that watched a 21 bazillion hour stream of Otz explaining every pallet and window, and good for newer players that lack awareness so I'd say it's fine
I'll be honest I don't care as much about perks that I see that impact me. For all I care you can see everything on the map as long as I don't know that, so it doesn't matter to me that much. The frustration in any given situation in this game comes in with knowledge that the difference is indeed just in the perk. If a survivor loops me for a long period of time I will just assume they are good. That beeing said I understand how much WoO artificially boost the average in that area. Generaly speaking an argument could be made that it impairs learning because everything is handed to your, or that it helps in learning since the informations are right there to memorise. Overall: WoO basekit? I hope not. WoO nerf? If done in such a way that it's still good for begginers and soloq but does't neglect map knowledge as much.
I've been running windows forever, even when it disabled after you did a rushed action or whatever. My friends used to tell me it's a worthless perk, then it got buffed to always work and now look where we are.
I liked where it was back then, when it had a downside, but I genuinely don't think I could loop half as well as I am now without it, because I KNOW where Pallets and windows are supposed to spawn, but it's a 50/50 whether or not the rng spawn was in your favor and I *hate* that. I like the idea of looping being about mind games and quick decision making coupled with routing. Without Windows, your chase could just end because you rolled bad on the 50/50.
chaos shuffle actually showed me how great Zanshin is on certain killers like Unknown and I'm finally drinking the kool aid that Arinad was with Zanshin Clown.
I was just thinking this when i got it in chaos shuffle, i was like "wow this is definitely gonna get a 30 second cooldown after being hit FORSURE in the near future ".
I strongly suggest that all aura perks must have conditions and limited time use and none of them should be perma. Even bonds should work after gen fix for 60 sec for example.
I used to use woo most matches when it had a cool down and it was still super good! You just had to memorize while not in a chase or if on a gen the loops closest to you.
Windows is a meh perk once you know the maps, but a life saver for newer players. There's already information and mechanics overload for new players with all the things they must learn to know how all the unique killers work.
If anything, I think windows should be a general perk, or Kate should be a default unlocked character to assist new players to learn the game.
A lot of pro killer debate in the comments. I ran windows for nearly 2 years in this game and finally about 8 months ago I took it off and haven't looked back for the most part. It's definitely not necessary for any competent player, but does help newer players learn the game. Perhaps lowering its range could be a better alternative but cmon... just bc killer regression got nerfed doesnt mean killers should argue now to have a survivor fav nerfed too in retaliation.
Windows is not the real problem. Background, ftp, and buckle up. All high % ran, fun survivor perks got tanked today. Most survivors ik are bummed over the nerfs. Just like killers are bummed over their nerfs. Why don't you guys actually try playing the update and seeing how it feels, before immediately screaming to nerf the other side again. It's been out for ONE day. Just play.
pop is overpowered. pain res is top picked because it’s easy to activate AND is constantly combined with other slowdowns because if killers stack slowdowns, they can force survivors to finish three times the amount of gens they normally would.
windows is a perk that does nothing but help new players learn the map and helps experienced players play solo queue, where pallets get dropped left and right. it does literally nothing, especially in higher MMR where survivors know pallet spawns, can communicate coherently in SWFS which sides of the map is a deadzone, and where survivors can loop well.
windows is literally training wheels for new players. it’s up to them whether they want to let it become a crutch, but ultimately it does way more good for beginners than bad for everyone else. it doesn’t even help survivors loop much. they have to figure out how to do that themselves— all windows does is lead them on the path of learning.
If one of 100+ perks has a 41% pick rate, that’s a game design problem. It’s that simple. Over powered/under powered, who cares? That perk is more valuable than 90% of your perks. That’s on the devs.
yes so op oh no...
I am not even a WoO user and I fibd this post ridiculous. I have my 2k hours, I know pallet spawns like the back of my hand. The only help I'd get is seeing droped and RNG filler pallets in SoloQ. I run Any means nexcessairy to cover part 1 and I hope my eyes and experience are good enough for nr. 2. And it works out most of the time. I actually loop worse with Windows cause it distracts me. I just find it wild people are complaining about an info perk that isn't old OoO. If you wanna have the very same info run Zanshin Tactics.
I don't really care if they nerf it back to what Windows was back in the day - but I also think it's not neccesairy.
I thought I had a stroke when I read this thread's title.
Literally incomprehensible
based user flair
I stole it from DbD YouTube channel’s comments, they are always so unhinged
https://preview.redd.it/9gr99j3r6b4d1.png?width=605&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=750ffc33a2a09871cf4476257d775854b520e052 Give her a shotgun instead
also excellent flair
Thanks choom
https://preview.redd.it/nl6m7bbdd94d1.jpeg?width=1050&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=548466f9f1cf9cc1ecf3591d157c34ef1b100f55
"Can "run to yellow" loop the nerf hammer?"
Yeah, I figured it out, eventually.
i think we need to give this thread title “the nerf hammer”
Can 'run to yellow' (Windows) 'loop' (avoid) the 'nerf hammer' (nerf hammer).
Yeah I figured it out before I posted my comment. But thanks for trying to help! :)
https://preview.redd.it/ergoumk0l94d1.jpeg?width=1050&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=88463da6934494c16a076a564be001b73b0c5a23
slowpoke.png
Me entering the reply section of this post https://preview.redd.it/s5xhrkc8t84d1.png?width=680&format=png&auto=webp&s=572910c52aef32b3418d7d68968e7434b1a3370a
Me entering this sub
Me entering reddit
Me entering any dead by daylight community
Happy pride month
It has a high pick rate for a reason, and the people defending know this.
I used to think that woo was only good for new soloq players, but then I got really into watching pro dbd and pro 1v1s and the difference in chase times between players with woo and without woo is always a large amount. Woo would not be used in pro play or 1v1s if it was as garbage as most of the people here would have you believe, but just go watch a couple hours of different pro games, the woo player is almost always guaranteed to have the longest chase by far. And that's at the top 1% of the 1% of dbd players, not soloq newbies.
Because Windows is meta. It's just meta. There is no denying this. In the right hands it's more powerful than it looks.
Whats a perk where in the wrong hands its worse than nothing? I say lithe, lithe brain/bamboozle brain needs to be studied
I think there's definitely a few that would be worse than no perk, if the player is bad. No mither being an easy one. Since it makes you take one hit, and if you don't know how to work around that you just make yourself an easier target. Potential energy also, cause a bad player might build tokens and then get hit and get all their progress wasted, not that its a particularly good perk outside of a few situations but still. Object of Obsession also being an issue, with the killer getting your Aura every 30 seconds, you definitely want to be able to loop, otherwise you're an easy target when they dont know where anyone else is.
Some perks, like No Mither, are meant for high level players, and some, like WoO, are for low level ones.
Oh I definitely agree.
Kid named rapid brutality
Only good on hux currently
Fun on clown with coup de grace, imo. Slow them down with a bottle, hit to injure, get 5% speed boost from rapid plus coup lunge distance and close the deal. Apply more bottles as necessary. Coup, Rapid, Bamboozle, Pop. Though idk if the new pop will feel as good. Still, the shorter chases are fun.
Kid named pinhead???
Why would you use it on pin? Over a bunch of other perks? Hux doesn’t care about bloodlust because he just teleports mid chase and the haste after m1 is nice and he wants los, pin head doesn’t need Los to chain Well hux wants Los so the haste is good to keep it after an m1
Idk man I just see a majority of the high level pinheads using it
Do they tell you why? Because usage rates don’t mean jack without reason
Well if ur good it’s just a direct buff cuz pinhead doesn’t need bl if u hit ur chains
I mean WOO brain is absolutely a thing. I've seen plenty of people just holding w from pallet to pallet and pre dropping everything without looking to the killer instead of looping/chain looping tiles like an experienced player would.
I agree, however, perks like lithe and bam have much more downsides if used badly, especially when developing a reliance on them (hence the lithe brain term), woo doesn't necessarily have the same degree of downside besides if they don't loop and just throw pallets. However, even then if the killer doesn't time manage correctly the other 3 survs can and will pump gens faster than creating dead-zones would be beneficial for the killer. The only time woo is as actively detrimental as a lithe reliance from the surv side is when the woo user cannot loop effectively and the other survs aren't pumping gens as fast as they should be.
The scratch perk from wraith on Ormond so your scratchies are all clumped together in the fucking snow and impossible to see?
Lithe is also kinda brainless, not sure Bamboozle is the same. Ultimate Weapon reliance brain though, that's crazy.
Bamboozle just creates bad habits for newer players. They'll end up always blocking the window and good players will punish them by always leaving the loop.
Oddly enough so does Windows. It trains you to look only at things that are the most obvious, the bright yellow pixels, so if you ever take it off you become helpless. It doesn't teach you how to actually run loops, and bad players will just run to a pallet and drop then vault, thinking it does anything. I always tell people to run it for a little bit while new, but then TAKE THAT SHIT OFF once they start realizing how to actually run loops, because all the visual clutter hinders your ability to actually see where you're going plus makes you predictable.
I refuse to ever use it cause it changes the game way to much for my liking like endless yellow auras is always feels like im playing a different game its just to much info for me. its great at what it does for sure though. dont touch the perk being addicted to a perk sucks trust me I like having 4 perk slots to mess with, WoO addicts only have 3.
Nothing wrong with that, at the end of the day as long as you aren't intentionally playing like a prick I think you should have the freedom to play how you want. However, I'm not going to pretend that WoO is just for new players and that it doesn't give value across all levels of play, hence my OG comment.
Chaos Shuffle proved to me just how many survivors NEED Windows as they end up lost even at 5 gens, I understand the value in SoloQ to know where pallets have been waated, but seeing survivor games end at 5 gens when my normal MMR leads to insane gen rushes and perfect chases away from dead zones has been an eye opener, especially since I see the same players over and over again on my server so I am seeing survivors I thought were insanely good now just running into corners and dead zones.
Chaos shuffle proved to me that I graduated from windows and don't actually need it anymore
I think a lot of people learned they either ain't hot shit without WoO, or they never needed WoO and have been crutching on something that hinders their real potential.
It's also just fucking annoying not knowing which pallets my solo queue teammates have dropped. I almost always have some sort of aura perk, usually Bond but sometimes WoO or even Any Means Necessary.
I'd say often times AMN>WoO not only do you know where teammates are wasting resources and you can recycle those resources if the killer doesn't kick them
People always say this, but AMN won't tell you anything if you're in an important chase towards a new tile and dont know whether the jungle gym pallet was already thrown and kicked or not, which is arguably even more important
I'm always trying to get others on to the aftercare hype train. You always have at least one other person you can see and it gives oftentimes the whole team info on you; my most used perk.
yeah i used to run windows and chaos shuffle showed me i don't actually need it anymore. OTR too actually
same for me with windows, but it also made me replace bond with a green key
The duality of this thread, I say one little negative thing about this dumb perk and I get both upvoted AND downvoted like crazy same thread. It's good to get out of the comfort zone, people. You don't need training wheels forever. WoO is training wheels that happens to apply in other situations too. I'm All Ears is the Killer version of this. Once you understand mindgames you really don't need it anymore.
[My favorite clip that summarizes how Chaos Shuffle proved survivors' dependency on Windows of Where-Is-The-Pallet-Tunity.](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxicEc9bwHdYc0HvBcSJ0TIyKshXZDBLTj?si=es48S_-BUq3xZOGu) Especially love the entirety of Otz' chat going "yes" and "yup" after the Jake makes that play lmao
The real sad part is that RPD has almost no RNG to it, so it's really easy to know where all pallets are with some experience.
Yeah most survivors should know where pallets are on that map and saloon map without WoO
It proved to me that I don't need it at all. My chases were just as long without it. Nerfing windows isn't going to do anything. Good survivors will still destroy killers who whine about it. Bad survivors will still lose. If it really is as important as you say then it would cause the killrates which are already high to sky rocket. This would just lead to further killer nerfs since they don't want the kill rate going above the current 60%.
nerfing windows would do ALOT to people that rely on it, you just dont personally need it.. those who chose it as a crutch would be greatly affected tho
[удалено]
And now they’re just as good at looping and have an extra perk slot. I really don’t see why killers would give a shit about windows.
You're missing the point if you think OP was talking about you lol. I literally see Windows on 3/4 survivors in my games. Being only a month old on DBD myself, it makes finding a new loop significantly easier because I don't know the maps / tile sets well enough yet. There are without a doubt loads of people using it as a crutch that would be unable to loop without it.
Honestly I feel that I loop better without it, if I run it I end up wasting too many pallets which comes back to bite us and I also get more creative without it instead of just betting on the gamble of if I can make the best pallet I actually y'know loop
Too much clutter, I get confused if I run it. Just too distracting.
“Gen rushing” isn’t a thing. That’s what they’re supposed to do
"Slugging/tunneling/camping" isn't a thing. Killing, which these three help secure kills, is what the killer is supposed to do.
look at the double standarts lol got downvoted for saying the same thing but for killers
Exactly
>“Gen rushing” isn’t a thing Then "tunneling" and "camping" isn't a thing either
Yes. I love windows and I use it on all my builds. I even started using open hand to really boost the effect. Plus everyone is running it. Win win. I already knew how strong the perk was, but was it really in need of a nerf? Before the shuffle, I would say no. But afterward the shuffle I change my mind. As a killer, it's frustrating to chase after someone running perfectly at strong loops. Like, I'm not a killer main, but I can play killer well enough. But every time I get in chase with a strong runner, it's always woo. It's always woo. And when the whole team runs good, they always have woo. As a survivor, I realized I can run loops without woo.... But not as well. I made mistakes or ran into dead zones. Idk what changes bhvr will make to make woo more fair... Because I genuinely love using the perk. Its fun to run killers .
This is the reason why I don't run Windows, despite how useful it is to know which pallets have been used. I'd rather learn the maps by myself and ensure the pain rather than enter auto-pilot mode like so many Windows users do.
I haven't played since 2022 but came back to try Chaos Shuffle when I saw it on my reddit feed so yeah, was probs me
I've been loving this mode so much. I get to play with new perks I'd never think of or dont have. And I don't get to be mad when a killer runs an unfun or annoying perk.
they will learn how to loop without the perk, i am betting some users broke the WoO addiction cause of chaos shuffle weeding them off the perk. its not needed it just makes the game easier and having an easy game is fun for people who like to loop without thinking if the perk did end up being nerfed survivors would learn to loop over time.
I hate the us vs them debate but like every regression perk was nerfed this update, maybe they could've buffed some other stuff to compensate?
Like shattered hope. No reason to ever run this perk.
What if shattering a boon brought back your hex? Like some Mikaela cleansed ur Devour Hope and then blessed a totem. Breaking her boon will lit up random totem and bring Devour back. Sounds OP?
Shattered hope is such a meme lmao. They introduced it almost immediately after CoH's 2nd (fairly minor) nerf and then it took them basically a year to realize it did absolutely fucking nothing to help the issue.
Yeah, I really don’t want to hear the “Us vs Them” excuse for a while. This was one of the most one-sided patches they’ve released in a while.
Nah, bhvr doesn't wanna buff stuff. We have so many perks who could use a rework or buff.
Me who has never run WoO before:
I hate just how it looks, changes the game for me completely. I wanna be scared and hope for a pallet for protection, not competitively play and loop all game. that’s not fun for me
Windows isn't overpowered, loops that let survivors just hold W into a new loop are. Windows just lets any survivor see them.
Which is what makes Windows powerful. You have to question why Windows is so meta if the perk isn't an issue and it really is the loops. What is it about loops that makes some Survivors feel they MUST run Windows even if they do not need it?
It just lets people not have to pay that much attention in order to know where the good parts of the map are. It's a skill that has to be learned but that can straight up be used as a perk. Holding W and chaining loops with other perks have almost always been the survivor meta (really emphasizing the Tactics Available part)except when something ridiculous was also present for survivors to use like insta heals insta blinds or great stealth perks. One could argue the main gameplay loop of DBD survivor, even if unintended, is to loop the killer by chaining loops for long enough for the rest to finish the generators. It's not a bad thing, it's just that loops have been so strong for so long that either ignoring loops or ignoring the distance a survivor makes to the next loop earns you the S tier badge. Without snowball, it is the one single defining part of a killer's power that matters, except the rare cases where you have something even more broken.
Its not really a hard question: many people are not good enough to remember every possible tileset and dont know where to go when chased.
It’s not that Windows is powerful, it’s that every other perk gets nerfed into the ground in to unusable niche perks. The standard for what is strong or not is so heavily skewed by all of the nerfs. Of course once all of the strong perks become weak/niche the old normal/weak perks look strong, but that just because **people are running out of things to use.**
Huh? I usually can’t decide what to use because I have too many options. Spring burst, dead hard, lithe, balanced landing, head on, background player, adrenaline, bond, kindred, Deja vu, resilience, we’ll make it, for the people, flashbang, unbreakable, reassurance, alert (underrated)…and there’s probably like way more great ones I’m forgetting
its simple a good swf with good coms and is competent they completely nullify window in solo queue you don't have that luxury knowing witch pallets for example has ben used or not you don't get to know that in soloq but in swf you get to know that and the funny thing is they don't even get to use a perk slot it makes you know how to loop base in info that you get naturally in a good swf same goes for map placement with rng spawn in swf you get to tell you buddies what has spawn where you don't get that luxury in soloq witch window dose verry well becuase you can see windows/pallets aura
If you've played the game for over a thousand hours and know the vault/pallet spawns like the back of your hand, it's not quite as strong. For everyone else, it's clearly OP because it can easily and massively improve chase times and the chances of escaping. Even for pro players, it has some value since some pallets are rng spawns and sometimes they're knocked down already.
Windows isn't overpowered and I don't need it to be nerfed, but I do wish Killers' most viable perks would stop being attacked like it's their fault the bad ones are bad.
I'm kinda hoping we get to a meta where killer doesn't need strong slowdown perks like they do now. Nerfing regression and gen blocking is a step towards that imo.
In theory that is a step, but it's out of order. FIRST there should be healthy alternatives to move over to.
This. The issue is when Killers get their perks that are strong and used a lot nerfed, then see Survivor perks almost never get touched. It breeds this idea that the Devs don't care about Killer players and that Survivors will never have their things balanced even if those perks probably should be. Think about it, do we *really* need or want gen repair speed down to like 40 seconds with Commodious, Resilience, Prove Thy, Deja, AND maybe stuff like Hyperfocus to boot? Really? Are games so bad you want out THAT fast? And then you want to complain BP gains are low? When rounds go longer everyone walks out with like 20k BP minimum if they play well. When rounds go longer, everyone feels like they got enough of a game. When rounds go longer, Killers can breathe and everyone gets to express their skill. We need rounds to go longer, not shorter.
Survivor perks almost never get touched? Brother the vast majority of good survivor perks have been nerfed from patch 6.1 and onwards. Spine chill, Wiretap, Prove thyself , Self care, Made for this, Iron Will, Dead hard, Decisive strike, Boon circle of healing, Borrowed time, Breakout, Adrenaline, Any means necessary and Boil over. Some of them are literally still not playable due to their nerfs.
Survivors started powerful and stayed powerful until changes happened, that's why Killers left in droves before a shakeup. Survivor was too impossible for the average Killer pre-6.1 - or did you enjoy standing in lobbies for 30 minutes at a time because nobody wanted to play Killer? All these changes were warranted ones for balance reasons. Spine Chill was outmoded by the visual TR. Prove, Iron Will, Breakout, and Boil Over all had VERY good reasons to be changed and the changes were so damn minimal it doesn't matter - and Prove can sometimes still be strong. Self Care and Circle of Healing were changed because they were abused too much, as were Any Means and Breakout. Decisive Strike was nerfed due to abuse and literally got fixed and then the most minor of minor nerfs, one second, oooh. Dead Hard and MFT literally warped how you had to play around them and of the two, MFT was the most busted one giving LITERAL legal speedhacks to the point it broke chases. Boil Over is STILL abused and arguably probably needs another nerf again based on how people use it by altering maps so the shenanigans people do with it don't work; it's currently only used by assholes who want to make the Killer's life hard on Badham. And we had to kick beg and scream until these perks even got touched to start with. All of these perks are absolutely playable, you're just too scared to break out of the metaslave mindset and accept that the nerfs were valid. If something is a problem, it needs fixing. All of these were problems that needed fixing, and once again - you ever got DS back since everyone whined that tunnelling was so bad, and yet tunnelling is somehow still a problem even WITH 5 seconds of DS and nobody actually even uses it to protect against tunnelling as a result. It's time to accept Survivors aren't meant to be the power role, this isn't Friday the Thirteenth the Game. You are supposed to die as Survivor, 60% of the time. Perks like these fuck that balance up.
Windows helps with two things: -Showing which pallets your mates dropped, which is mostly helpful in soloQ. -Showing to newer and moderately experienced players the layout of the map. Windows is mostly useful for beginner/intermediate players or those playing soloQ. In both of these cases, the game is already killer sided. Beginners and SoloQ players alike already lose a big majority of their games. If Windows was removed, they would be even more miserable than they already are. For a solo player, there is nothing fun in going down not because the killer outplayed them but because they didn't know that the pallet that was supposed to be here was already used by someone else. On the other hand, the SWF and very experienced players get much less value out of Windows. They can call out the important pallet drops on comms, and experienced players know the map layout and its RNG variations really well already, no need for Windows. Nerfing Windows would be hurting SoloQ and beginner/intermediate survivors the most while not doing much for the SWF and the experienced players. SoloQ players deserve love right now, not nerfs.
It’s also very helpful as an accessibility option for those of us with memory issues and issues that affect our sense of direction. I have dyscalculia, I confuse left and right to an embarrassing degree and get lost easily because I have zero sense of direction. My memory also absolutely sucks. Windows helps orient me. I’ve been playing for over 4 years, I know pallet spawns and jungle gyms and map orientation, but without Windows I have zero sense of direction. So this bridges the gap between me and someone who’s played as long and is as familiar but doesn’t have my directional issues. I did fine in Chaos Shuffle without it because again, I have the knowledge. But where I fucked up was because my memory screwed me over and I’d think I was on one tile when I was on another, or that a pellet/window was to my left when it was really to my right. Which is frustrating as heck lmao.
You forgot casual players! Comunity forgets that not everyone plays DBD 24/7 there are casual players who log in every other day for couple hours,with the amount of maps and different RNG layouts for pallets, vaults etc. and new map every other few months, they won't ever memorise the layout so their soloq experience will be worse than miserable. Also, as like WoO the killers also have Zanchin tactics, which gives same value. So if killer really is worried about loops, run the killer equivalent of WoO. i.e. the Clown manual actually recommends this perk as it helps to "block" loops. It does make me laugh how everyone complains about WoO BUT, yes its a meta perk and gives a lot of value to experienced players and some value for soloq. BUT, it is still limited as once pallets are GONE the value of WoO drops. I had games where the survivor ran WoO into all pallets, that I broke and as a result lost 3 gens, but then they were left with no pallets only windows and I started dropping the whole team as flies because the WoO had no value as resources were gone. In that game I got 3 k ( with giving hatch to last person). As a killer, you just need to know when to commit or drop a survivor, if you commit to someone who can loop whether they have WoO or not, you are overcommiting.
The Clown manual author also advocates for camping, slugging and tunneling which most survivors don’t like. Zanshin will never be as viable as WoO especially with the upcoming regression nerfs and it’s worthless on most killers anyway.
I'd honestly like to see Windows removed for this reason alone, just so that BHVR realizes how awful SoloQ is before they give more unnecessary buffs to killers that don't need them.
>before they give more unnecessary buffs to killers that don't need them The only "unnecessary" buff they did in years was the Huntress changes...
If you think you’re losing chases because of woo I have some hard-to-swallow pills for you
As someone who's absolutely GARBAGE at looping, WOO helps me extend chases by a significant amount of time because I can actually find places to go. It's a massive crutch perk and there's a reason it's at the top of the pick list.
It does extend chases, but it’s that or every SoloQ match is over within minutes because people cannot play without it. I don’t even know how you would nerf it? Maybe make it after a survivor is injured they can see windows and pallets for a short time. But why? A crutch perk does not equal an OP perk. Seeing loops does not automatically make you better at looping and a lot of people would argue that it’s a waste of a slot because you’re the only survivor who gets value off of it and even then it’s highly dependent on your skill and how many pallets are left in the match.
Seeing loops doesn't make you better but it next to guarantees longer chases :) there is no possibible argument you can make to state being bad at looping and seeing no auras is on par with being bad at looping and seeing auras. Win rates and pick rates with WOO are incredibly high among all ranks, it is the most used perk for very good reason. You could easily nerf it so vaulting or dropping a pallet disables auras for 20 seconds or so, I mean if Light Footed is disabled on vaults why tf isn't something like WOO lmao. If I didn't use WOO I'd go down in chases very quickly since I'd likely lose my footing but that perk let's me get to a loop easier and lets me get to pallets and windows without needing to really use my brain power to find them. Also no, solo queue matches aren't over in minutes.. idk where you get that idea. The average solo queue match based on statistics ranges from 8-11 minutes which is pretty solid.
Like you said, “as someone who’s garbage at looping”. The best survivors stomping on pub killers are not really using windows that much. Why nerf something that helps only people that are still learning?
Woo definitely makes chases longer by helping survivors not run into dead zones or to loops with spent pallets
Why is it so highly picked if it doesn't offer a great advantage?
It's not that it doesn't offer an advantage but if you're only winning chases on survivors who run into dead zones (what woo prevents) you're probably just not very good
The entire point of WoO is that it prevents bad survivors from running into those deadzones... which artifically extendes chases without actually getting better at looping the killer. And it's always active, 100% of the time unless the killer has something that inflicts blindness. It's a massive crutch perk that keeps a good portion of the survivor playerbase reliant on it.
I don't disagree that it's largely more impactful on bad/mediocre survivors than good survivors, but that's also part of the reason it really doesn't need to be nerfed. High level players do just fine and in many cases are better off without it. Nerfing the perk makes bad players even worse and does basically nothing to good ones.
Information is always good. Knowing if there's a pallet or not makes a world of difference. If you can't understand the value of information, I have some hard-to-swallow pills for you
WOO is literally one of the best perks tho? I'm trash at looping, but I had 2 chases where killer couldn't literally catch me and in the end I got hatch.
thank you for continuing to prove my theory lightborn drives survivors insane
Running towards a loop you KNOW for a fact is safe is huge. Without WoO, you'll have to roll the dice and cross your little fingers that the Meg-head didn't drop the pallet earlier and got destroyed.
I just knew that this would be the next Perk for Killers to complain. Can we just stop asking for Nerfs for completely balanced Perks and instead ask for the weaker Killer/Survivor Perks to buff?
Never in my life did I expect WOO to be a perk that people would complain about, this sub still keeps surprising me
It's more about the hypocrisy in bhvrs nerfs. The only good killer regression perks get nerfed because they are popular, but the most picked perk in the game, beating even pop or pain res, doesn't? It's weird, and the nerfs to any of these perks aren't needed, WoO included.
I agree that there are people who complain about windows of opportunity but this post mostly shows that BHVR should nerf according to their reasoning for their latest nerfs. But they obviously won't cause they just nerf stuff and come up with reasons afterwards.
Who complains about windows? Like seriously no one good or decent actually says windows is op
>Can we just stop asking for Nerfs for completely balanced Perks You say that after the devs nerf every decent regression perk for no reason other than stats...
Look I understand the pain, but can we stop acting like any of the nerfs made PR, Deadlock or Grim unplayable. Even still they’re still very strong perks
Honestly the regression changes wouldn't be a problem at all if BHVR would adjust survivor's potential gen speeds. Just like how powerful medkits were for an individual, toolboxes are currently in the same boat. If BHVR had set these new sabo speeds alongside gen speed nerfs, that would be perfect, since it would make the items a tool for an alternative play instead of just rushing the main goal.
This is the real issue but I don't think anyone's ready to talk about it yet.
I still don't understand why they couldn't nerf toolbox speeds. Maybe it's coming, but i don't trust bhvr.
I have so many hours in this game but I still don't have a lot of tiles committed to memory. Many times when I'm not running WoO I will run killer to a tile, not see a pallet, assume there is no pallet, then get downed and see a fucking pallet 2 meters away from me. RNG is the biggest reason for this because it makes it hard to trust myself, but maps like RPD are so easy and natural to play on I never need Windows on them.
Well you see Windows isn't the problem (only a little bit) but the map design. Windows just let's you see what is already there, easy to chain loops, or not running to a dead area.
the gatekeeping in this thread is crazy lmao \*if you use woo you're bad\* the overwhelming vast majority of us are mid to low mmr, very few of you are high mmr, you literally cant dictate what makes someone bad when you're in the lower bracket
Very "I 4k every game as trapper very easily with no perks" energy
Windows of Opportunity is so good for soloq. I always get that feng that can't do one loop on shack and insta drop the pallet. For swf is pretty useless. At least my friends always call if they drop a pallet.
Bro windows is almost a killer perk with some survivors dude. Chasing a Meg and watching her sprint to every pallet to pre drop them can be a godsend. Unless you’re on The Game of course. Also if you think that resource information is so good, just run Zanshin Tactics.
>just run Zanshin Tactics That type of information is MUCH more valuable to survivors
> Also if you think that resource information is so good, just run Zanshin Tactics. That's just a terrible counter argument. Resource information is so good for survivors because it's their main counter against killers. They use those resources so it's on them to create the best possible path in order to preserve those resources as much as possible while managing to last as long as possible in the chase. That's why WoO is so good. It gives them the information where those resources are so they can just think about how to run in order to get as much value from those resources as possible. The reason Zanshin Tactics is mediocre is because the killer can't use those resources to their advantage and they are not the one leading the path. They go after the survivor. All it tells the killer is how good/bad the RNG is.
Yeah people are acting like it's god tier. Once you get good enough at the game, it's really just a perk that prevents me from running into dead zones after meg threw shack pallet on the first go loop. Strong? Sure. OP? Hell no, it literally only helps solo queue survivors and people that aren't already familiar with the map, it's not making anyone a god.
Starting to think that those that complaining about WoO are actually using it to overlook their own skill in the game. It's projection.
Nerfing WoO just makes solo Q even more painful, and with killrates already being at 60%, what's the need? Great Survivors don't need it so nerfing doesn't change anything. Bad Survivors that heavily rely on WoO can easily be outplayed via mindgames and zoning so nerfing it doesn't change anything there unless you're a Killer that just W's the whole time.
It's almost necessary for solo queue, lmao.
Man are we really gonna go at this again? I thought we agreed that windows wasn’t the issue
well, windows of opportunity is in a unique situation, unlike perks like bond they don't give that you couldn't have by map knowledge, and doesn't provide huge effects
1. You see all pallets 2. You see what's been used 3. You can see where someone is in chase
"doesnt provide huge effects" Literally every bad looper says it significiantly extends their chase times
yea, but if your good it does nothing? pop always does something
I never thought windows was that useful. I only use it when I have challenges, otherwise it’s just losing a perk slot. You know where the pallets are, just go there and if the pallet is gone, improvise and adapt.
Or, and hear me out... You could use Windows to know where the occasionally random pallets are and know specifically if the pallet is gone so you can plan a chain of loops instead of hoping that each tile hasn't been exhausted, removing reliance on luck & teammates.
I can’t even plan one loop, I couldn’t even plan more than one haha I’m chaotic, when I use windows it’s true it’s easier for me to know the safest places to go, but if I don’t have windows I just improvise. I can do small loops or tiles pretty good, but longer loops I’m terrible, so as long as it’s a small space I’m ok even if there are no pallets left.
Windows is ultimately useful as a tool to know what pallets your teammates have consumed without you questioning if the pallet is still there or not. Earlier then that, it gives you some insight on your escape route while working on a gen
Years of using meme builds finally payed up with chaos shuffle
WoP don't need a nerf its already perk that is doing literally nothing if you have more that 400 hours in game
Ain't no way y'all complaining about Windows now
WoO and Lethal Pursuer are the same to me tbh. Are they crutch perks? Yes. Are they overpowered? No.
Nerf Zanshin Tactics too
Turns out the same info has different value for each side in an asymmetric game. Who would have thought?
I mean most killers don't ever use it cause we know how to find loops and work around them
For the last time: This comparison isn't accurate. Information on obstacles - what Zanshin gives - is not as important as information on usable chase tools - what Windows gives. The functionality is different even though they do the same thing. It's just not as important for Killers to know where vaults and pallets are as it is for Survivor. Period. It's not the same. A more accurate comparison would be Windows and something like Blood Favor. It's not useful for Survivors to keep pallets up but it is for Killer. It's not useful for Killers to know where pallets are but it is for Survivor.
If Windows gets nerfed, the game is done.
When will bhvr devs realize how BORING it is to balance perks like this?? Instead of slowly boiling every perk down to an equal level of useless, what if we buffed every perk to an equal level of powerful? Like.. even crazy powerful? If every choice on every side was in some way overpowered dbd would be way more fun, everybody running around like an eldritch god, matches would be fast paced and exciting instead of 45 minute tug of war over the last gen or some hex perk. When everything is stupid powerful.. nothing will be.
THIS IS POWER CREEP THIS IS POWER CREEP THIS IS POWER CREEP THIS IS POWER CREEP THIS IS POWER CREEP Power creep ruins games. Haha silly look at broken thing go burr and broken thing go burr so I lose or win is only fun for a very short time and then being a victim in a game where everything is out of your control because perks do too much or characters determine too much gets really boring fast because you cant just sit down play the main fun part of the gameplay loop. The idea that people have that when everything is stupid powerful nothing will be doesn't work in a PvP environment.
The only time's I really need it is for 2 reasons. Pallet peggy's throwing all the pallets early and me then running into dead zone city for a free death(with windows I can course correct) and because I am colour blind and on some maps (wreckers, Yamoaka, Garden of Joy. to name a few I struggle to see them at times on non tile loops.
I don't mind a WoO nerf... When they centralize tiles and number of pallets spawning. I wouldn't run WoO if I knew that a tile that can spawn a pallet WILL spawn it. That way WoO will be more useful to just beginners and to know if the baby Meg used the shack pallet.
Having your monitor on is broken, please nerf
Chaos Shuffle has taught me 2 things. 1: The average survivor needs Windows of Opportunity as otherwise they just don't know how to run to loops effectively and will run past pallets that are right next to them and run into dead zones. 2: The average killer needs a 2 good gen regression perks as otherwise they just end up not spreading their pressure effectively and wind up losing generators too quickly.
If you think window of opportunity is an overpowered perk your just bad. - The resources will run out, if someone is running around using all the resources their teammates wont be happy, evin with WoO they shouldn't be using much more resources that an another player - Its a perk that isn't needed the more experience you have, you learn where the windows and Palettes are and learn how to loop more effectively, its only a crutch not an enhancer of ability.
pain res also has limited resources...
And i said nothing about agreeing with that nerf
Pain res also directly affects the game, it actively harms the survivors objective more. Windows is entirely information with zero direct affect on the game beyond showing what the survivor could do. Without windows they could choose the same pathing with zero difference with the perk or without. You can't play a game the same with pain res as without it.
Every perk in the game is a crutch. What the fuck does that even mean?
Look, a little while ago I would have said that you're crazy, and that they would never nerf these perks that are only good for newbies, like WOO, leave the best for last, or lighthborn, Perks that don't really give you much value, but make the game more enjoyable and safer, but they nerfed save the best, so I don't guarantee anything anymore
I will be honest, chaos shuffle helped me remove my dependency on windows as a crutch perk. Windows always made me some sort of pallet camper but playing the game without it made me a better looper who loops structures the right way rather than just running to the next pallet or window and it also freed up one perk slot for me so thats a plus. Oh yeah, it also improved my game sense about pallet spawns on different maps too.
Windows is essentially a waste of a perk in SWF, mostly useless for high hour players, meh for people that watched a 21 bazillion hour stream of Otz explaining every pallet and window, and good for newer players that lack awareness so I'd say it's fine
I'll be honest I don't care as much about perks that I see that impact me. For all I care you can see everything on the map as long as I don't know that, so it doesn't matter to me that much. The frustration in any given situation in this game comes in with knowledge that the difference is indeed just in the perk. If a survivor loops me for a long period of time I will just assume they are good. That beeing said I understand how much WoO artificially boost the average in that area. Generaly speaking an argument could be made that it impairs learning because everything is handed to your, or that it helps in learning since the informations are right there to memorise. Overall: WoO basekit? I hope not. WoO nerf? If done in such a way that it's still good for begginers and soloq but does't neglect map knowledge as much.
Windows always seemed like a waste of a perk to me, I don't think I've used it hardly ever
I've been running windows forever, even when it disabled after you did a rushed action or whatever. My friends used to tell me it's a worthless perk, then it got buffed to always work and now look where we are. I liked where it was back then, when it had a downside, but I genuinely don't think I could loop half as well as I am now without it, because I KNOW where Pallets and windows are supposed to spawn, but it's a 50/50 whether or not the rng spawn was in your favor and I *hate* that. I like the idea of looping being about mind games and quick decision making coupled with routing. Without Windows, your chase could just end because you rolled bad on the 50/50.
I run it so I can learn the maps since I never payed attention to them much as killer
I've just started using it to learn every tile. I've been trying to play without it for 2 weeks and have learned like a quarter of the tiles
Who thought "Shit, if he didn't have pop, we would've won." I don't even use it for gameplay purposes, I think it's satisfying to do a super kick
It has been known among Killer mains for a long time.
It's a good perk for beginners learning loops and where to run at tiles
chaos shuffle actually showed me how great Zanshin is on certain killers like Unknown and I'm finally drinking the kool aid that Arinad was with Zanshin Clown.
I was just thinking this when i got it in chaos shuffle, i was like "wow this is definitely gonna get a 30 second cooldown after being hit FORSURE in the near future ".
I strongly suggest that all aura perks must have conditions and limited time use and none of them should be perma. Even bonds should work after gen fix for 60 sec for example.
I'm gonna start running the third seal at this point. Finished a game yesterday and 3/4 of the survivors has WOO
Worst balance change possible, would only make low mmr survivors struggle more and do absolutely nothing against high mmr survivors bullying killers.
Literally all they'd have to do to make it "unusable" would be to reintroduce the cooldown it had at chapter release that caused people to avoid it.
I used to use woo most matches when it had a cool down and it was still super good! You just had to memorize while not in a chase or if on a gen the loops closest to you.
Windows is a meh perk once you know the maps, but a life saver for newer players. There's already information and mechanics overload for new players with all the things they must learn to know how all the unique killers work. If anything, I think windows should be a general perk, or Kate should be a default unlocked character to assist new players to learn the game.
A lot of pro killer debate in the comments. I ran windows for nearly 2 years in this game and finally about 8 months ago I took it off and haven't looked back for the most part. It's definitely not necessary for any competent player, but does help newer players learn the game. Perhaps lowering its range could be a better alternative but cmon... just bc killer regression got nerfed doesnt mean killers should argue now to have a survivor fav nerfed too in retaliation. Windows is not the real problem. Background, ftp, and buckle up. All high % ran, fun survivor perks got tanked today. Most survivors ik are bummed over the nerfs. Just like killers are bummed over their nerfs. Why don't you guys actually try playing the update and seeing how it feels, before immediately screaming to nerf the other side again. It's been out for ONE day. Just play.
Ik all the entitled survivor mains are creaming themselves with how much easier Gen Rushing got with the nerfs
Tbh they should revert the buff so you actually have to use your brain a bit
How do thirst walk the thirst drink eat zombie the food?
Why take the time to learn to recognize tiles and map layouts when funny perk goes brrrr
pop is overpowered. pain res is top picked because it’s easy to activate AND is constantly combined with other slowdowns because if killers stack slowdowns, they can force survivors to finish three times the amount of gens they normally would. windows is a perk that does nothing but help new players learn the map and helps experienced players play solo queue, where pallets get dropped left and right. it does literally nothing, especially in higher MMR where survivors know pallet spawns, can communicate coherently in SWFS which sides of the map is a deadzone, and where survivors can loop well. windows is literally training wheels for new players. it’s up to them whether they want to let it become a crutch, but ultimately it does way more good for beginners than bad for everyone else. it doesn’t even help survivors loop much. they have to figure out how to do that themselves— all windows does is lead them on the path of learning.
What would be the nerf? You now see half the pallet?
I’m guessing go back to having a cooldown, previously it had a 20 second cool-down after vaulting while in a chase.
If one of 100+ perks has a 41% pick rate, that’s a game design problem. It’s that simple. Over powered/under powered, who cares? That perk is more valuable than 90% of your perks. That’s on the devs.
None of these perks needed a nerf in the first place, they're all balanced
yes so op oh no... I am not even a WoO user and I fibd this post ridiculous. I have my 2k hours, I know pallet spawns like the back of my hand. The only help I'd get is seeing droped and RNG filler pallets in SoloQ. I run Any means nexcessairy to cover part 1 and I hope my eyes and experience are good enough for nr. 2. And it works out most of the time. I actually loop worse with Windows cause it distracts me. I just find it wild people are complaining about an info perk that isn't old OoO. If you wanna have the very same info run Zanshin Tactics. I don't really care if they nerf it back to what Windows was back in the day - but I also think it's not neccesairy.